View Full Version : long distance night shoots
So, it's been a year since this thread (www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=602732) where I first got some decent NV. I've been using them probably once/week or so all year. They've really been great during the winter because they let me go shoot after I get off work, even though it gets dark before 5pm in the winter.
Anyway, the past 5 or so nights in a row, I've been going out every night shooting and stretching the distance with some targets a little past 1000 yrds. The nice thing about shooting at night is the wind goes dead calm around here when the sun sets but it gets really hard to see the target with high magnification at dusk. Of course, the NV solves that problem but at the same time, the PVS-27 only support up to 12x magnification, so I have to dial down quite a bit from the through-the-scope pic below which was taken at 25x.
So first is a day-light pic of the target. the cow's about 500 yrds and I often have to wait for them to cross, which can take a while as they're not usually in any kind of hurry. i often pass the waiting time by taking pics, so it seems most of my pics have cows in them...
Next is a close up of a 3-round internet group on a 30" tall IPSC silhouette. the head shot was from 520 yrds. the kidney group is pretty tight, but the location is really really irritating as i think my scope is wandering. There definitely wasn't any wind, and I had .3 left on the gun (and yeah, it's .3 left not .3 right... i checked several times) from the previous night which had me centered up, but the next night i was off again. I think I'm going to check my zero tomorrow at 100 yrds.
The paint on that target looks a little funky because it has a layer of orange ground-marking paint, followed by a layer of neon-green ground-marking paint, followed by several layers of the cheap 98 cent black spray paint from wally world. It makes impacts easier to see from a distance because they tend to knock off bigger circles of paint, even though it looks odd up close.
The last pic is some of the gear I have been playing with. the NV is the PVS-27, purchased from TNVC. I'll try to take some through-the-scope pics of it tomorrow night.
Some things I have noticed about long-range shooting at night over the past year:
ambient light makes a huge difference
illuminators make a huge difference and some are way better than others
it's a PITA to have to focus both the NV and the parallax
despite ^^^^ when focused at 1000+ yrd targets, I can still easily see cows of any color at 500 yrds in the dark. I was initially concerned that I might not, and one might walk between me and the target at the wrong instant.
very rare to spot impacts, and you can forget about trace
PVS-27s are a friggin mill stone! I feel like I'm working out every time I move with my rifle
black targets stand out. (pro-tip for the ninja/balaclava guys...)
everything sounds louder at night. a lot louder. (on the positive side, it's very easy to hear the steel ring from past 1000 yrds.)
teamwork makes a huge difference at night, with a spotter running illuminator for you
ergonomics on the PVS-27 seem like they were done by same guy who invented the AK47. nothing is in the right spot. nothing is easy to adjust or manipulate. it still works though.
surprisingly good battery life. buy bulk AA lithium batteries. it's worth it.
i have yet to find a decent range finder at night. the $2000 PLRF05 Terrapin is awesome but it's "NV mode" is just for eyeballing at dusk, not for using PVS14 or similar like the "NV" settings on Aimpoints and eotechs. The PLRF10s have a mount that lets you hook the PVS14 to them but so far I've heard they're not effective past a few hundred yards, which isnt' worth doing
NV mode on the kestrel 4000NV is similarly lame.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/1000yrd%20targets.JPG
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/1012yrdot.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/260ainv.jpg
Damn you and two of my other pals who have clip ons:D...like yourself, I know I would get my monies worth out of that piece of equipment, but the initial start up is high as balls on a giraffe.
Talk about having too damn much fun....oh well, at least you gave us a great report and a little piece of NC-17 action.
If you ever need a wing man, I'll be your huckleberry.....I'm truly a night owl, have rifles, and am willing to travel:p
I was asking IGUNZ about NV products th other day. Cost is brutal but it's very tempting and extremely cool.
Good report and keep them coming.
trident, I was actually thinking about hosting a NV shoot that would run kind of like a match, in that there would be several stages set up to test various aspects of shooting at night, but it would be more like evaluation than competition and shooters could run the stages as many times as they want just to try to figure out how to work with their equipment to overcome various practical challenges. I have had discussions with a couple vendors about it, to provide some demo gear etc.
I may yet do it. In the meantime, if you're going to be in the mid-TN area, feel free to email and we'll go out!
I understand that it would be quite a bit of work for yourself and perhaps a few others in order to organize not only a night shoot, but one with a few pieces of high dollar equipment to demo.
For a guy like me that would be a huge and wonderful opportunity because I can put myself in good conscience into the category of serious potential buyer of a Gen III clip on device, however there is no way in hell I could even come close to pulling the trigger on one without ever trying a single model out in the field.
I'm right below in Bama....so that's music to my ears hearing that your in TN.
The only thing that really makes me envious is seeing a Gen III clip on device for use in front of magnified daytime optics like your awesome setup above. Happy switches and suppressors are neat and all....but personally I think turning night into day, and engaging torso sized targets at 1000m is arguably the coolest damn thing you can do with a rifle:cool:
eta....I'd enjoy making the videos from these night sessions perhaps as much as shooting them....you should really try and get some footage of what your doing as it's extremely rare, and extremely badass.
I was able to go shoot and take some pictures this evening. For reference, a picture of the two targets during the day, from 500-600 yrds at roughly 12x and again from 1000-1100 yards at 25x. The near one is a full size IPSC and the far one is a bigdogsteel snipershide target (http://www.bigdogsteel.com/snhirehechta.html) which has a spring-reset reactive head (i think 6"x9"), and also a reactive chest plate (12"x16") (I took this one off the prize table from K&M earlier this year). Obviously these are iphone quality photos that have been resized and jpg compressed so they all look a bit better in person than the photos reflect. As an example, note the IPSC head looks taller in the top photo. This is because I put two rounds in the brain area from 500 after I took the first pic, which from 1000 just blur the target into the dirt above. Seriously, the iphone photos do a much better job in daylight than they do of the NV shots. The NV shots aren't quite as blurry in person as they appear in the pics.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-520y.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012y.jpg
now, same shots (both 1000+yrd not 500) in the dark
(note I'm at 12x power here)
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv1.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv2.jpg
I also took a few while the sun was setting for comparison...
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv3.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv4.jpg
Now you see why I said black targets show up well in NV... I looked for a cow to take a pic of through the NV so you could see what fur looks like, but as luck would have it they got camera shy after dark. Maybe next time.
and a close up of the snipershide target... illuminated by my truck headlights
the hit on the right side of the head was from 600 yrds in daylight, still trying to figure out what's wrong with my scope's windage. From 1100 in the dark, I was 2 for 3 on the body. (note the two spots on the top are bolts, not impacts)
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1090ytarg.jpg
and some more gratuitous gear pics of my firing position while waiting for the sun to set and cows to move
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-eq1.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-eq2.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-eq3.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-eq4.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-eq5.jpg
Man that is wild stuff in regards to painting the targets black....the first guy who did that must have just gotten frustrated after trying every single other color under the rainbow before saying..."f**k it, let's try black":D
With that incredibly long barrel and then suppressor I know you don't have to worry about "blurping" or however you want to phrase it when the muzzle flash temporarily blinds units especially like the PVS21s, but I wonder how that unit would do on a SPR or Recce rifle, or dare I say a 16" MWS or EMC.
I'd love to run my NXSc compacts with that unit, and I bet they would go together very nicely.
Thanks for the great update and especially those pics...as far as I'm concerned your living the dream with this stuff. More so if your just out there enjoying all this by yourself, and exploring this topic on completely your own time in BFE.
I only shoot suppressed in the dark, so as not to bother the neighbors excessively. (Behind my firing point is a golf course with several houses prob 800 yrds away.) So I don't get any muzzle flash and have never blinded the unit. However, this is what it looks like on a KAC (ban-era not EM though). I wouldn't put this on an AR15. There are much smaller scopes for that.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/night.JPG
yeah, sometimes I bring new shooters out, but mostly it's just me and the cows and coyotes. Nice and quiet. We did have a night stage at my Fall Team Match though (http://precisionmultigun.com/ click the "Fall 2011" link and scroll down past the sponsor list) Takes forever to run 70+ shooters through though and we had almost 100 shooters in the Spring match last month so we decided to skip it. It's fun though. We had shooter/spotter with 2x PVS-27s and 4 pop-up targets along a woodline that they had to locate and shoot.
QuietShootr
07-05-12, 14:57
I was able to go shoot and take some pictures this evening. For reference, a picture of the two targets during the day, from 500-600 yrds at roughly 12x and again from 1000-1100 yards at 25x. The near one is a full size IPSC and the far one is a bigdogsteel snipershide target (http://www.bigdogsteel.com/snhirehechta.html) which has a spring-reset reactive head (i think 6"x9"), and also a reactive chest plate (12"x16") (I took this one off the prize table from K&M earlier this year). Obviously these are iphone quality photos that have been resized and jpg compressed so they all look a bit better in person than the photos reflect. As an example, note the IPSC head looks taller in the top photo. This is because I put two rounds in the brain area from 500 after I took the first pic, which from 1000 just blur the target into the dirt above. Seriously, the iphone photos do a much better job in daylight than they do of the NV shots. The NV shots aren't quite as blurry in person as they appear in the pics.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-520y.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012y.jpg
now, same shots (both 1000+yrd not 500) in the dark
(note I'm at 12x power here)
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv1.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv2.jpg
I also took a few while the sun was setting for comparison...
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv3.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1012ynv4.jpg
Now you see why I said black targets show up well in NV... I looked for a cow to take a pic of through the NV so you could see what fur looks like, but as luck would have it they got camera shy after dark. Maybe next time.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-1090ytarg.jpg
I'm saving those pics for the next guy who blows me shit about my refusal to leave anything black. I've tried to explain it a few times, but the proof is in the pictures. Black sticks out like a diamond in a goat's ass, and it's worse under NV.
mcmillanman5
07-05-12, 19:11
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/620-eq1.jpg
Taliv, you have some great looking gear! I was in the same situation with my vectronix terrapin and being a bit bummed out about there not being an actual night setting.
So what have you done to range targets in the dark? Are you just shooting at known ranges? Also not to throw your thread off track or anything but have you ever used a spotting scope coupled to a NVD?
uhh, well, i haven't really solved that problem yet in a practical way. just for "range" shooting, i can hang an IR (or regular) cyalume stick that i can see to point the range finder.
i use a leupold mk 4 compact spotter which is 12-40x60. and my PVS-27's max magnification is 12x. So they just BARELY overlap. i plan to get (eventually) a badger mount that allows you to mount the clip on in front of it. it's ridiculously expensive though, so i haven't purchased it yet. will post pics when i do.
uhh, well, i haven't really solved that problem yet in a practical way. just for "range" shooting, i can hang an IR (or regular) cyalume stick that i can see to point the range finder.
i use a leupold mk 4 compact spotter which is 12-40x60. and my PVS-27's max magnification is 12x. So they just BARELY overlap. i plan to get (eventually) a badger mount that allows you to mount the clip on in front of it. it's ridiculously expensive though, so i haven't purchased it yet. will post pics when i do.
Consider the APO SSAR as well as the Badger if all you're looking to do is mount the clip-on. Low weight/smaller overall footprint.
I'm picking up a CNVD-LR in a couple months and will be going with the SSAR and adding a TIM-17 if I need to clip stuff onto the spotter. Keep in mind this is all based on the idea that the cost will be marginally comparable to the Badger.
ETA: Mine will eventually look like this, but the PLRF will be lower since I'm not using a riser to mount a PEQ-15.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/oneshot1964/FFS%20CB1/ash.jpg
johnnyc, yeah i was just about to buy a CNVD-LR too. maybe a couple months now. Ashbury stuff is absurdly priced. I think that mount below will cost you 2x as much as badger, just for the SSAR and TIM.
mcmillanman5
07-06-12, 08:32
uhh, well, i haven't really solved that problem yet in a practical way. just for "range" shooting, i can hang an IR (or regular) cyalume stick that i can see to point the range finder.
i use a leupold mk 4 compact spotter which is 12-40x60. and my PVS-27's max magnification is 12x. So they just BARELY overlap. i plan to get (eventually) a badger mount that allows you to mount the clip on in front of it. it's ridiculously expensive though, so i haven't purchased it yet. will post pics when i do.
Thanks for the reply. I am in the market for a spotter right now and am likely going to go with the leupold, just trying to decide if it would be worth it to couple it with NV (PVS14).
ETA: Like Johnny I was planning to use the TIM and mount my PLRF to the top of it.
the mounts to put 14s behind the ocular lens are not prohibitively expensive. but i've been told by numerous people that sell them "you can do it, but you won't be happy with it". i'm a big fan of learning from the mistakes of others.
if you guys get the ashbury stuff or find a good NV-spotting setup, definitely post a review.
the mounts to put 14s behind the ocular lens are not prohibitively expensive. but i've been told by numerous people that sell them "you can do it, but you won't be happy with it". i'm a big fan of learning from the mistakes of others.
if you guys get the ashbury stuff or find a good NV-spotting setup, definitely post a review.
This really stems from the light loss you get going through all of the optics of the spotter then the PVS-14. If you're not on a two-way range, you can use lots of supplemental IR to make up for some of it.
The problem is that either way you go you're making a compromise. You can use the full magnification range with the Badger SNAP, but you need lots of supplemental IR. You can use a CNVD-LR or PVS-27 out front, but are limited in your magnification ability. It's a mixed bag, but the SNAP is cheap enough that if you've already got a PVS-14, it's worth messing around with just for funzies.
mcmillanman5
07-06-12, 22:34
I appreciate the thoughts guys! I do already have a pvs14 so I will give it a try and see how it works when I get the spotter/rangefinder setup. Also I am just a regular guy shooting steel and having a good time so if it takes some extra IR illumination no biggie.
I look forward to seeing how your setup turns out Johnny and thanks Taliv for the good thread and info!
Fun stuff, isn't it? Though I'm intimately familiar with all this equipment (thanks taxpayers), I can only imagine how great it must be to personally own it.
I don't know just how deep your pockets go, but if price is no object, consider the following:
IMO, the ultimate setup for low-light, semi-passive long range target interdiction is a Long Range Thermal Video Imaging System (LRTV) or similar, combined with clip-on NV. Your spotter / observer ID's the target with the Thermal Viewer, then blips the IR Laser on target. Even though the shooter can't see shit, especially not the target, since there's no active IR illumination besides the focused laser, he may engage the target simply by aiming at the spotter's IR marker (which is relatively low profile compared to an IR flood).
There's just something incredibly cool about engaging a target you can't even see. Try it if you ever get a chance.
Fun stuff, isn't it? Though I'm intimately familiar with all this equipment (thanks taxpayers), I can only imagine how great it must be to personally own it.
I don't know just how deep your pockets go, but if price is no object, consider the following:
IMO, the ultimate setup for low-light, semi-passive long range target interdiction is a Long Range Thermal Video Imaging System (LRTV) or similar, combined with clip-on NV. Your spotter / observer ID's the target with the Thermal Viewer, then blips the IR Laser on target. Even though the shooter can't see shit, especially not the target, since there's no active IR illumination besides the focused laser, he may engage the target simply by aiming at the spotter's IR marker (which is relatively low profile compared to an IR flood).
There's just something incredibly cool about engaging a target you can't even see. Try it if you ever get a chance.
I want! Is this basically what the MELIOS became?
I want! Is this basically what the MELIOS became?
Here's a rundown:
http://www.vectronix.us/userupload/2495_2007_LRTV.pdf
I have no idea if it's available for civilian purchase, though in hindsight I suspect not. Unit price, if I recall correctly, is somewhere around $20,000.
wow, now that is cool! i was warned off of buying thermal unless i got a cooled one and there don't appear to be many handhelds.
my dream device would be 6x bino that combine cooled thermal and night vision that also integrate the laser-based IR illum and IR designator and terrapin-quality LRF.
something weird happened with my iphone and i couldn't get it sorted out, plus i had the gain set much lower than usual so this pic is kinda bad, but shows a bit of what i'm seeing with colors at night. My friend painted the black IPSC seen in the other photos with neon green ground marking paint because it shows hits really well in the daytime. (see my shooting stick thread for a pic of it). as you can see, it's practically invisible. there are black, white and tan cows in the pic, roughly 150 yards away. The IPSC is 530 yards and the black headhunter is 604 yards.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/nvcow.jpg
The half-minute right impact at 600 is caused by the drift imparted on your bullet by right-hand twist rifling. Null it out (dial, set, or hold a quarter- to half-minute left on the target) and you'll be back to center.
That looks like great fun, and yes black contrasts very well with the NV gear and IR lasers, just like a black hog stands out.
I recently picked up a FLIR T-60 to augment my T-50, although it is not a bolt gun, the longest I have shot it so far is 225 yards at night sighting it in with my Eotech. However, I just ordered an ACOG TA02 LED to specifically interface with the T-60 out to 600 yards or so. I use gallon milk jugs filled with hot water, the massive white explosion when impacted is pretty impressive on the video stream output.
I ordered a picitanny rail to fit on top of my Ruger #1 7mm Rem Mag with Leopold 4-12 scope so I can shoot handloaded 165 grain SMKs using the FLIR T-60 at much longer ranges at night, should have it all setup by the end of this month.
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/FLIR%20T60/Left%20Front%20T60.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/FLIR%20T60/Right%20Side%20T60.jpg
that is a very cool setup, skypup!
TRIDENT, short notice, but if you want to come up this weekend, i'll be out fri/sat/sun nights for sure. email me tom@taliv.net
everyone else,
as I mentioned earlier I'm still considering a multigun NV event that would look something like this. Limit 15-20 people. It would run like a match but we wouldn't keep score. Starting at maybe noon. attendees would use their own equipment and there would be 4-6 short stages similar to what we shoot in our precision field 'sniper' type matches (for examples see www.precisionmultigun.com). From maybe 3 hrs before sunset til 1 hour after, we would have an informal class / familiarization session with lots of different NV products. Attendees would be able to put their hands on various accessories (helmets, mounts, etc) during the day and then view targets etc through the optics in varying light conditions as the sun sets.
After dark, attendees would shoot the same stages with provided rifles and NV. Again, we wouldn't keep score, and attendees would be able to reshoot stages as much as they want, and with their own equipment*, time and ammo permitting. Stages would involve shots from 10-1100 yards with suppressed pistol, carbine, and bolt guns. We'd probably secure the range sometime around midnight.
Unfortunately cost would be about $300 (due to need to provide suppressed guns and ammo, and to defray cost of NV gear)
I think the event would be fun, and a good learning opportunity, especially for anyone interested in purchasing NV that wants to try before buying. If attendees already have gear and are just looking for something fun to do with it, this would be a good opportunity, as the stages will be designed to highlight some challenges around using NV.
I'm trying to get an idea for the level of interest in this type of event. Any feedback is welcome. thanks
so... unlike the first post where i waited over a year to post a review, this is more like a typical internet review where I take a new product out of the box the first day, shoot some bragging groups with it and blather on a while. so take the following with a grain of salt. particularly, the parts where i complain are likely because i just don't know how to properly set it up yet.
First some pics of the device next to the 27s... Note the spiffy case that doesn't have molle webbing, but is otherwise pretty nice.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-24-27a.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-24-27b.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-24-27c.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-24-27d.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-24-27e.jpg
First impressions...
1. wow, it's lightweight!! (more than a pound less than the 27)
2. it's much longer, which was almost a problem with my EFR/scope setup
3. the rubber guard seems intended for 44mm objectives or smaller, and particularly seems useful only when centered. though i didn't stretch too hard, i couldn't get it around my 50 or 56mm objectives. i suppose my new 58mm USO is right out!
4. nice QD like the 27s, but is on opposite side from the 27s, which is slightly annoying due to having to swap the illum/laser to the other side when switching between clip ons.
5. being able to use 123 or AA batteries is a very cool feature
6. despite a much smaller objective lens it sits much higher than the 27s. note rifle pics later. I think this might be part of my problem described later.
7. the focus control is much better design than the pointy knob on the 27s, but in use, both have the same very narrow band where it's in focus; a little to either side and you're noticeably out of focus.
8. you'd think for what these things cost, you'd get a tube without black spots all over it, but both devices have many black spots. if my pvs14s had these blemishes, i'd send them back. but with these clip ons, i'm guessing it's the magnification that makes them so noticeable
Some pics of the clip ons on rifles. note that for the shooting below all through-scope pics and rounds fired were from the rifle on the right with the S&B PMII.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/cnvdlr.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/cnvdlr3.jpg
On to some shooting...
first a gratuitous pic of my target from previous afternoon... 2 rounds from 530 yards
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t1-530y.jpg
after which I painted the target thusly, as an experiment. Since there seemed to be some interest previously in the thread about target color, i painted the top black, the middle white and the bottom in ground-marking neon green paint. We'll see how easy it is to distinguish between the colors through NV.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t2.jpg
But first, while it was still daylight, I wanted to confirm my dope again, even though it looked pretty good from previous afternoon. (ok I admit i was just bored waiting for sun to set...)
before and after, with closeups:
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t5-clean.jpghttp://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t8.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t3-580y.jpghttp://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t4-653y.jpg
and in fact, it wasn't exactly where i expected on my 1st round so i kept same POA and put a total of 3 rounds in a small group on the head of the ipsc silhouette from 580 yards, then 1 round on the head of the 653 yard target. that's good enough to test the NV though... so finally the sun set. It was partly cloudy and there was a full moon, but it was only about 15* above the horizon and behind a large stand of trees so not directly visible from my shooting position, though it was visible from the targets.
For whatever reason, I'm having a great deal of difficulty taking decent through-scope pics of the NV with my iphone 4. To be sure, I wasn't impressed with the image i was seeing with either the 27s or CNVD-LR tonight. Both were fuzzy. I played with the gain as best I could, since the light from higher gain settings was washing out the camera. The following pics were taken with relatively lower gain settings on both optics as that was the only way the camera would take a reasonable pic that wasn't just a bright green blur.
Even so, imho, all the images were poor in person tonight, and all the pics are even worse. I'm sure i will get different conditions later this week and post more comparison pics. For now...
The 27s at 12x and 20x:
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-27-12x.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-27-20x.jpg
and the CNVD-LR at 12x and 20x:
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-24-12x.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-24-20x.jpg
note the black shape in the last picture is the southwest end of a northeast-bound cow about halfway to the target.
note the blemish on the 27s about a mil and a half left of the ipsc silhouette. there are actually many more visible in person, and the CNVD-LR is even worse, but the camera isn't picking them up very well.
And I took one shot at each target using the CNVD-LR...
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t6-580y.jpghttp://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t7-653y.jpg
Now, I wouldn't normally complain too much about those, particularly the center hit on the ipsc, but I have to confess I was aiming for the heads! Granted, as you can see from the pics, my ability to aim small isn't nearly what it was in the daytime, but my impact is clearly a couple minutes lower. so since both shots were quite a bit low I'm thinking I have some sort of bore sight problem and the CNVD-LR is affecting my zero in ways the 27 never did. I guess I will make a few phone calls and continue my education tomorrow.
I'm looking forward to your continued posts on this. I've been eyeballing the CNVD HEAVILY since they came out.
The black spots and 2moa shift in zero is very disappointing. Please update when you get some answers on those issues.
I too have never really been able to get a camera to take good night vision pictures.
Interesting. I'm curious to see how it performs on a better night. I hope you get the pictures figured out. NV and pictures are hard enough as it is when conditions are good.
I have a hard time getting upset about blemishes as long as they aren't dead center, and they're actually useful depending on the type of black spot when it comes to a PVS-14, although I can see how they'd be annoying in a clip-on. You just have to remember that blemish free tubes don't exist, and it's easier to come to terms with. I'm sure you could get an av-spec tube put in by L3 but it would cost you another couple grand. The aviation tubes are the closest I've ever seen to be blem-free and I bet they'd be fantastic in a clip-on provided the recoil mitigation system works well. A low halo aviation tube would probably have a hard time on a heavy weight AR, let alone a .308 even if it's a heavy gun.
VooDoo6Actual
08-03-12, 14:18
Thx for the AAR
Interesting & keep us posted
AR15barrels
08-03-12, 14:48
Now, I wouldn't normally complain too much about those, particularly the center hit on the ipsc, but I have to confess I was aiming for the heads! Granted, as you can see from the pics, my ability to aim small isn't nearly what it was in the daytime, but my impact is clearly a couple minutes lower. so since both shots were quite a bit low I'm thinking I have some sort of bore sight problem and the CNVD-LR is affecting my zero in ways the 27 never did. I guess I will make a few phone calls and continue my education tomorrow.
Did it cool down considerably from when you checked zero before dark?
Is it possible that some of that elevation shift is air density related or did you dial for the change?
Randall, that is a good thought, but i track DA on my kestrel pretty closely when practicing. It dropped a few hundred feet, but with .1 mil granularity on my turrets, i can't even correct for that inside 700y. Iirc a 1000' drop in DA is worth .1 mil past 700.
Johnny, yeah, i'm just being whiny. it does distract me a bit though because the motion of the spot moving against background in your peripheral vision grabs your attention.
AR15barrels
08-03-12, 17:31
i track DA on my kestrel pretty closely when practicing. It dropped a few hundred feet
Yeah, that's nothing.
I have seen 3000 ft DA shifts from light to dark and that certainly is enough change to cause a few moa correction.
It's different out here in the desert...
Johnny, yeah, i'm just being whiny. it does distract me a bit though because the motion of the spot moving against background in your peripheral vision grabs your attention.
I've got one blemish in my PVS-14 that's in about the perfect spot for blocking out street lights and such. It makes sense that it would be a distraction in a clip-on. I wonder how easy these are to work on. I think as long as the recoil mitigation works well you could just keep your eyes open for a super clean tube and swap it out. If you know anything about collimating optics you could build yourself a little collimating table and do the swap yourself. I know a few guys did that with those pos ATN clip-on's.
mcmillanman5
10-20-12, 23:15
I never like to bump old threads but I figured this would be the best place to put this.
I am about finished setting up my spotter/ ranging setup. I would still like to get one of the new dbal's to help brighten things up at night. I was able to use one with this the other night and was really impressed.
All things considered I am pretty happy with how this turned out. The only real downside that I have noticed so far is that the setup is side heavy because of the way the spotter hangs off to the side of mount rather than directly over the tripod head. Big thanks to all the guys who answered my questions about equipment here. Also the rangefinder and the spotter are not exactly lined up so some adjustment is needed to transition from one to the other. I have only been able to use this at night once because I just got the SNAP. You really do need to throw some IR illumination down range for the pvs14 to work well so JohnnyC was exactly right on that. I am sure that a clip on night sight would work better but I don't have one of them to try out.
Specs:
PRS medium tripod
Ashbury TIM
Leupold MK4 12-40
PVS14 weapon mount
Vectronix Terrapin
Badger SNAP
PVS14
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/mcmillanman5/DSCI0248.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/mcmillanman5/DSCI0247.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/mcmillanman5/DSCI0246.jpg
^^That is awesomeness ^^
Damn you guys, and your cool ass toys :p
OK, that's not very cool or anything. Fork me guys, your kit is unreal. I would love to have one dedicated NV 308 rifle.
Maybe one day, thanks for sharing.
PB
So what! You won't do any night shooting anyways.
OK, that's not very cool or anything. Fork me guys, your kit is unreal. I would love to have one dedicated NV 308 rifle.
Maybe one day, thanks for sharing.
PB
I'm afraid of the dark. That's when those Zombies come out, I keep hearing about on m4carbine.net.
I'm down for one more night shoot before it gets too cold in the desert!
As soon as I pick up my CNVD-LR I'll invite you guys out and we'll do a night shoot. Have a PVS-14 and a micro, just need the clip-on. I don't know anyplace to shoot at night though, as I do most of my shooting at 3 Points or Pima Pistol Club.
So what! You won't do any night shooting anyways.
Lets shoot for Friday at 3:00. The MCopa Cabana. Bring SBR's, loud brakes and hot ammo. And a coyote call:D
Gunz, get us one of those NV Set ups like the last one you had. Invite marky mark.
thanks for the pics macmillan. that's exactly what i was looking to sort out. my long range bolt gun is down at the moment and I won't have time to work on it until after the PRS finale in Dec. I've been playing with carbines at night lately though.
I need to work on better carbine targets for night use. I like the instant feedback of steel, but i definitely don't like shooting it at close range and i definitely don't like the splash you get off it with the laser. ipsc silhouettes work, but they're kind of a PITA to paste wearing nods
I have to clarify with you. Is the 300 AM or PM? :p
Lets shoot for Friday at 3:00. The MCopa Cabana. Bring SBR's, loud brakes and hot ammo. And a coyote call:D
Gunz, get us one of those NV Set ups like the last one you had. Invite marky mark.
If we get out there at 3am, we'll get some good low light shootin done! Good idea Gunz! :cool:
after which I painted the target thusly, as an experiment. Since there seemed to be some interest previously in the thread about target color, i painted the top black, the middle white and the bottom in ground-marking neon green paint. We'll see how easy it is to distinguish between the colors through NV.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/82-t2.jpg
Thing with color is not so simple. I have one pair of black shoes that shows up as black through NVD's and another pair that shows up as white.
Reason for this is that colors are wavelengths within visible spectrum, and NVD's are most sensitive totally outside our eyes capabilities. NVD's do not see the colors we see, any of them, very well at all. Why some objects seem "white" and others "black through the NVD's is simply because all surfaces reflect many different wavelengths, including NIR spectrum where NVD's are sensitive. Relative whiteness of an object depends on it's capability to reflect NIR wavelengths that the eye doesn't see.
Black showed well because that particular paint didn'reflect NIR wavelengths and contrast between foliage and dirt (that reflect NIR rather well) was large.
Nerd out!
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