View Full Version : The House has discovered a conspiracy that would make Nixon blush.
SW-Shooter
06-20-12, 13:22
The Obama administration, including President Obama himself along with the U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder had created a way to end the 2nd Amendment as we know it. That way is concealed within the documents that are now under executive protection.
This was a conspiracy to rid this country of our Constitutional right to "Keep and Bare Arms", they would have abolished the 2nd Amendment by proxy.
That is why we need this to come out, this is something that would result in Obama's impeachment and possibly his imprisonment along with a few key members of his administration. In fact this makes Watergate look like a mere walk in the park, scandal wise. But, this is something that would put a stain on the Presidency and therefore will not be allowed. We cannot look weak and impotent to our enemies, that is why this will be buried like the people this Operation killed.
As much as we want all of the information on Gun Walker and Fast and Furious, the House Panel will not allow it. The contents would destroy too many people's career's, people of great power. We all know they'll sacrifice one or two, but not this many.
loganp0916
06-20-12, 13:28
How did you hear about this? Any links? I'd like to read more..
VooDoo6Actual
06-20-12, 13:31
"under the Radar"
Lol
it's not "under the Radar" anymore...
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 13:37
Theres already a FF thread.
NoveskeFan
06-20-12, 13:38
I wonder, if the gov tried to confiscate firearms, how many would resist? How many police / National Guard would follow the order? When will the straw break?
SW-Shooter
06-20-12, 13:45
Wouldn't Gun Walker & Fast and Furious be considered an "act of war", if Mexico pushed it. The U.S. Government was arming a rogue entity that is at war with the Mexican Government, therefore subjoining a coup against said government.
This isn't a F&F thread, this is a Conspiracy thread.
I wonder, if the gov tried to confiscate firearms, how many would resist? How many police / National Guard would follow the order? When will the straw break?
This is where I believe we will find that "crossroad" that I was metaphorically describing in the other thread...we'll just have to wait and see...but when you see it, you'll know it.
This isn't a F&F thread, this is a Conspiracy thread.
Where are your sources? I would like to see them...
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 13:58
EP only counts towards "private" documents between the president and his subordinates. It doesn't cover 'every' document the executive branch has created since he took office. It only covers private communications between the president and others.
One of the best things about this country is each branch is limited in power, and requires the consent of a second branch or powers under the Constitution to carry out acts. The president cannot "end" the 2nd Amendment all on his own.
Now it seems pretty obvious to me that 1. It was an Obama/Holder program to 'show' how many American guns were being used in MX and how we need stricter gun laws 2. Holder/Obama have been lying through their teeth.
They didn't count on Zapata or Terry getting killed, and they probably didn't count on Republicans taking over the House. If dem's had kept control of the house this would have all been swept under the rug long ago.
The Senate has nothing to do with the House as far as the House's investigation is concerned. The House has their own authority.
SW-Shooter
06-20-12, 14:02
My sources are on Fox, and other various media outlets. You're right, I meant The House. I sometimes mix House and Senate investigations, hell they never amount to much either way.
The Obama administration, including President Obama himself along with the U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder had created a way to end the 2nd Amendment as we know it. That way is concealed within the documents that are now under executive protection.
This was a conspiracy to rid this country of our Constitutional right to "Keep and Bare Arms", they would have abolished the 2nd Amendment by proxy.
I'm talking about sources for this^? How do you know (aside from speculation and educated guesses) what exactly was said/written when they are under "protection" as of right now?
SW-Shooter
06-20-12, 14:12
I'm talking about sources for this^? How do you know (aside from speculation and educated guesses) what exactly was said/written when they are under "protection" as of right now?
Isn't it clear. I guess it's just reading all of the information and looking between the lines. It's obvious what they were shooting for, what other agenda could it have been? There was no other reason for this goat screw, it just blew up in their face when Agent Terry was killed. No I don't wear tinfoil, or listen to Alex Jones. I spent enough time looking at classified documents to know what I'm reading is a bullshit cover up, friendly fire incidents come to mind.
Isn't it clear.
No, it's not clear, and if there was anything substantive to this beyond your desire to start a conspiracy thread then you would have already posted it.
Isn't it clear. I guess it's just reading all of the information and looking between the lines. It's obvious what they were shooting for, what other agenda could it have been? There was no other reason for this goat screw, it just blew up in their face when Agent Terry was killed. No I don't wear tinfoil, or listen to Alex Jones. I spent enough time looking at classified documents to know what I'm reading is a bullshit cover up, friendly fire incidents come to mind.
Hey I'm not saying you're wrong in your line of thinking, I was just wondering if you knew (or saw) something that I didn't...We're on the same page now...
...and I'll have to agree with Moltke on this one. Speculation will never be enough to impeach anyone...so there's really no point in talking about it.
SW-Shooter
06-20-12, 14:32
No, it's not clear, and if there was anything substantive to this beyond your desire to start a conspiracy thread then you would have already posted it.
Living under a rock does not make one safe.
Living under a rock does not make one safe.
The moment you bring some facts to light, I'll come out from under my rock.
SW-Shooter
06-20-12, 14:44
The moment you bring some facts to light, I'll come out from under my rock.
Mlotke, the facts are right in front of you. The second you realize that this administration doesn't have your best interests in mind, you'll see the truth. Gunwalker was step one, F&F step two, oops it blew up in our face let's close it down aka damage control. Media gets a hold of the info via FOIA after Agent Terry is killed. America watches American Idol & Survivor, these aren't the documents you are looking for, etc.... Republicans see what is going on (they actually did their job this time). Now the whole thing is crumbling down on Obama. But it won't because it's too bad for mainstream America to see who's behind the curtain.
Allen West agree's with me, and that's good company to keep.
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 14:45
The moment you bring some facts to light, I'll come out from under my rock.
The part he left out is 'theory' as in conspiracy 'theory'. A theory is not a 'law' at least in a scientific sense.
So we have a theory, based on a butt load of "facts", that all point to one thing.
No this is not a done sealed rock solid case but there's no other theory right now let alone a hypothesis.
I'd like nothing more than to see them all burn, especially from the top down.
Doc Safari
06-20-12, 15:00
The Senate has nothing to do with the House as far as the House's investigation is concerned. The House has their own authority.
This is significant. It means the Senate can't vote down the House's resolution, nor can it filibuster.
As someone on Rush Limbaugh's show said this morning: Holder has a job as long as Barry needs someone to coordinate election fraud, obfuscate investigations, refuse to prosecute Black Panther shenanigans, and whatnot.
The House may be able to put Holder in the blaze orange prizon jammies, though. :D
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 15:19
This is significant. It means the Senate can't vote down the House's resolution, nor can it filibuster.
As someone on Rush Limbaugh's show said this morning: Holder has a job as long as Barry needs someone to coordinate election fraud, obfuscate investigations, refuse to prosecute Black Panther shenanigans, and whatnot.
The House may be able to put Holder in the blaze orange prizon jammies, though. :D
Holder has been involved in a lot dirty work besides his current stint as AG.
Doc Safari
06-20-12, 15:38
Holder has been involved in a lot dirty work besides his current stint as AG.
If memory serves, wasn't Holder the power behind Janet Reno during the Waco thing?
I think he was. He's been guilty of multiple murders and unprosecuted for almost twenty years.
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 16:11
If memory serves, wasn't Holder the power behind Janet Reno during the Waco thing?
I think he was. He's been guilty of multiple murders and unprosecuted for almost twenty years.
Yes multiple shady things during the Clinton years. He is a 'dirty' SOB and just the man for this type of OP.
RogerinTPA
06-20-12, 17:05
I read a couple of articles last year (Maybe in an NRA letter), right after Fast and Furious broke, about how this was a run to cripple/change/neuter the 2A, by sending guns into Mexico, then laying all the blame on border gun stores. Thus presenting "proof", then start a national gun registration law, leading to confiscation. Remember...Prior to this, the Mexican and US presidents/governments were both blaming border gun stores and gun shows as the catalyst for drug violence on both sides of the border. After the Fast and Furious exposure, not one peep on the issue.
Doc Safari
06-20-12, 17:10
I read a couple of articles last year (Maybe in an NRA letter), right after Fast and Furious broke, about how this was a run to cripple/change/neuter the 2A, by sending guns into Mexico, then laying all the blame on border gun stores. Thus presenting "proof", then start a national gun registration law, leading to confiscation. Remember...Prior to this, the Mexican and US presidents/governments were both blaming border gun stores and gun shows as the catalyst for drug violence on both sides of the border. After the Fast and Furious exposure, not one peep on the issue.
And don't forget that folks in border states are reported for multiple assault rifle type long gun purchases just like multiple handgun purchases have been reported for years.
Add to that the gun shop owners that have been busted (rightfully or not) and you begin to see a pattern: create the crime and arrest both some gun owners and some FFL's to be prosecuted for that crime.
It was a perfect scheme. 'Til it wasn't.
Anybody remember how this all came to light to begin with? I know Terry's murder was sort of the spark, but then who leaked knowledge of Fast & Furious to the public media?
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 17:16
And don't forget that folks in border states are reported for multiple assault rifle type long gun purchases just like multiple handgun purchases have been reported for years.
Add to that the gun shop owners that have been busted (rightfully or not) and you begin to see a pattern: create the crime and arrest both some gun owners and some FFL's to be prosecuted for that crime.
It was a perfect scheme. 'Til it wasn't.
Anybody remember how this all came to light to begin with? I know Terry's murder was sort of the spark, but then who leaked knowledge of Fast & Furious to the public media?
The first post on ar15.com was on 1/31/2010 http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1145029_ATF_Gunwalker___p395___Eric_Holder_in_Contempt.html&page=1
Forum rivalry be damned Nolo is a great dude with the lawyer creds to make a difference.
If memory serves, wasn't Holder the power behind Janet Reno during the Waco thing?
I think he was. He's been guilty of multiple murders and unprosecuted for almost twenty years.
As much as I also want to see Holder doused in political and legal napalm, using Waco to bolster one's argument diminishes credibility.
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 17:49
As much as I also want to see Holder doused in political and legal napalm, using Waco to bolster one's argument diminishes credibility.
Not in the least. Doesn't matter if you believe either sides story the ending didn't have to happen. Id like to think the freeist and richest nation on earth can handle such things better than that.
I don't know about such a deep level conspiracy but it is obvious they were trying to create a problem with American guns going across the border.
If you remember right before this story broke, several left wing media outlets reported on straw purchasing going on near the border. These stores were part of the operation and someone gave them the lead. They needed this as proof to justify their anti gun initiative.
Between this and the Health Care bill probably being overruled, how the hell does this dope get reelected?
Belmont31R
06-20-12, 19:09
I don't know about such a deep level conspiracy but it is obvious they were trying to create a problem with American guns going across the border.
If you remember right before this story broke, several left wing media outlets reported on straw purchasing going on near the border. These stores were part of the operation and someone gave them the lead. They needed this as proof to justify their anti gun initiative.
Between this and the Health Care bill probably being overruled, how the hell does this dope get reelected?
Enough lefties get elected and "democracy" happens where they appoint enough people shit like this gets swept under the rug and ObamaCare gets rubber stamped through Congress like all the shit FDR got passed through the "War on the Supreme Court".
Our system in not infallible.
Enough lefties get elected and "democracy" happens where they appoint enough people shit like this gets swept under the rug and ObamaCare gets rubber stamped through Congress like all the shit FDR got passed through the "War on the Supreme Court".
Our system in not infallible.
In light of 2010 elections and the resent election results in Wisconsin, I am becoming more and more optimistic. I think the people are starting wake up a bit.
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-12, 19:25
If memory serves, wasn't Holder the power behind Janet Reno during the Waco thing?
I think he was. He's been guilty of multiple murders and unprosecuted for almost twenty years.
Not to mention OKC. He's filthy alright.
RogerinTPA
06-20-12, 20:56
Just now on Hannity, Monica Crowley has just asserted that F&F was possibly by design, to produce dead bodies by those guns, but on the Mexican side of the border, in order to crack down on the 2nd Amendment, which she says she writes in her new book, "What the &$%# Happened?"
Here is an article from that time period. Remember the "90% of Mexican guns are from the US" crap and the Mexican president bad mouthing the US on the floor of congress???
http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/opinions/columns/article/RUBEN-NAVARRETTE-U-S-guns-in-Mexico-cause-major-746754.php
I wonder, if the gov tried to confiscate firearms, how many would resist? How many police / National Guard would follow the order? When will the straw break?
It would break exactly as history has conclusively shown such things to break, with the vast vast majority, handing them over, then immediately turning on those that refused to do so! Same for LE, the majority will do exactly as they are told, period!
It would break exactly as history has conclusively shown such things to break, with the vast vast majority, handing them over, then immediately turning on those that refused to do so! Same for LE, the majority will do exactly as they are told, period!
Completely disagree. First, an outright confiscation would never happen. Second, in my opinion, if it was ordered most LE and National Guard, etc wold not obey it.
The US is VERY unique in that is has a gun culture that is hundreds of years old. Also, no country before the US ever had a 2nd Amendment based on the principle that it does not give a right but rather prohibits the government from interfering a right the people already possessed from their creator.
Americans are not used to tyrannical acts by tyrannical and ever changing governments. In those other societies these types of acts were not uncommon.
Just now on Hannity, Monica Crowley has just asserted that F&F was possibly by design, to produce dead bodies by those guns, but on the Mexican side of the border, in order to crack down on the 2nd Amendment, which she says she writes in her new book, "What the &$%# Happened?"
This plausible motive has been discussed for some time. Almost no doubt that this is what the short-sighted ideologues had in mind.
Not in the least. Doesn't matter if you believe either sides story the ending didn't have to happen. Id like to think the freeist and richest nation on earth can handle such things better than that.
He was a known child molester holding those same children hostage. He and his group of heavily armed, brainwashed maniacs boasted that they would not be taken alive.
Your solution would have been...?
Completely disagree. First, an outright confiscation would never happen. Second, in my opinion, if it was ordered most LE and National Guard, etc wold not obey it.
The US is VERY unique in that is has a gun culture that is hundreds of years old. Also, no country before the US ever had a 2nd Amendment based on the principle that it does not give a right but rather prohibits the government from interfering a right the people already possessed from their creator.
Americans are not used to tyrannical acts by tyrannical and ever changing governments. In those other societies these types of acts were not uncommon.
http://intellectual-thoughts.com/Hurrican%20Katrina%20Gun%20Confiscatio.htm
LE, and the national guard will follow their orders....The tiny little microcosm that was nola in the aftermath of Katrina, amply demonstrated the reality of what to expect from those that hold a monopoly on the use of violence, and this response has been echoed in other cities/states all across America...There will always be pockets of individuality, nonetheless, the vast majority will readily comply, and then eagerly rat out those that don't!
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-12, 22:36
He was a known child molester holding those same children hostage. He and his group of heavily armed, brainwashed maniacs boasted that they would not be taken alive.
Your solution would have been...?
Where is the evidence? If they wanted him for those reasons why did they not simply arrest him on his weekly bike trip to the store in town?
Budget was up for review and the BATFE needed a front page "raid" and they got it.
QuietShootr
06-20-12, 23:01
Completely disagree. First, an outright confiscation would never happen. Second, in my opinion, if it was ordered most LE and National Guard, etc wold not obey it.
The US is VERY unique in that is has a gun culture that is hundreds of years old. Also, no country before the US ever had a 2nd Amendment based on the principle that it does not give a right but rather prohibits the government from interfering a right the people already possessed from their creator.
Americans are not used to tyrannical acts by tyrannical and ever changing governments. In those other societies these types of acts were not uncommon.
Could we have your rank and former branch of service, and MOS?
Oh...you don't have one? Right. Anyone who was in for more than ten minutes knows that for every one guy who will refuse to do the wrong thing, there are 20 more that will do what the **** they're told to do, because JAG will find a way to make it legal.
Sooo.... your opinion is worth somewhere between Jack and Shit.
I think we all know that F&F was a politically motivated assault on the 2nd Amendment. The problem is producing a smoking gun so to speak. Holder and the Obama Administration hold all the documents and recordings relevant to this scandal. They are not going to produce them, regardless of any contempt charges. Unless we get more leaked documents and more whistleblowers, it ain't gonna happen. :(
He was a known child molester holding those same children hostage. He and his group of heavily armed, brainwashed maniacs boasted that they would not be taken alive.
Your solution would have been...?
Well you don't rescue abused children by burning them alive. Regardless of how evil Koresh and his followers were, you don't assault hostages with tanks and CS gas and whatever else they used. And you CERTAINLY don't bulldoze a crime scene, unless you want to destroy evidence. :(
LE, and the national guard will follow their orders....The tiny little microcosm that was nola in the aftermath of Katrina, amply demonstrated the reality of what to expect from those that hold a monopoly on the use of violence, and this response has been echoed in other cities/states all across America...There will always be pockets of individuality, nonetheless, the vast majority will readily comply, and then eagerly rat out those that don't!
As an agent of the federal government and a reserve law enforcement officer, I will not follow any illegal order and my superiors know it. If it ever comes to that, they issue those orders at their own peril. :mad:
VooDoo6Actual
06-20-12, 23:46
As an agent of the federal government and a reserve law enforcement officer, I will not follow any illegal order and my superiors know it. If it ever comes to that, they issue those orders at their own peril. :mad:
Regardless of all the other issues, beliefs etc.
Just wanted to say I totally respect the fact that you are clear, know yourself & position w/o fear of saying it. I tip my hat Sir.
Regardless of all the other issues, beliefs etc.
Just wanted to say I totally respect the fact that you are clear, know yourself & position w/o fear of saying it. I tip my hat Sir.
Thanks. I believe its imperative to not just feel this way, but to express it to superiors before an event happens. You may ultimately prevent the order from ever happening.
Yes, I've had these discussions with coworkers and superiors.
Could we have your rank and former branch of service, and MOS?
Oh...you don't have one? Right. Anyone who was in for more than ten minutes knows that for every one guy who will refuse to do the wrong thing, there are 20 more that will do what the **** they're told to do, because JAG will find a way to make it legal.
Sooo.... your opinion is worth somewhere between Jack and Shit.
When in US history were soldiers ever asked to obey an order, on the American mainland, that directly violated the Constituion that they swore to defend?
What is your experience with confiscating weapons from US citizens?
BTW, I don't give a flying shit if your Gomer Pyle or General Patton. I don't believe the US military is comprised of 95% mindless robots as you suggest because the it wouldnt represent the general population from where they are drawn.
There is NO historical example of something this extreme to even consider so you have no clue what soldiers would or wouldn't do. And who says it would get that far.
There are, however, many examples of soldiers refusing to obey illegal, immoral, or unethical orders throughout US history.
Moose-Knuckle
06-21-12, 00:22
When in US history were soldiers ever asked to obey an order, on the American mainland, that directly violated the Constituion that they swore to defend?
The Bonus Army (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm) comes to mind.
What a stupid discussion. Hey let's argue about what will theoretically happen in a hypothetical scenario with no possible way to know the exact circumstances surrounding the event, or future unforeseen factors and wild cards...and we'll do it based on individual experiences in unrelated fields and anecdotal evidence with dubious predictive potential.
There are an almost infinite number of factors that could affect how the order is perceived and whether it is carried out or not.
The Bonus Army (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm) comes to mind.
Not really close to the same thing. The US military being ordered to disarm 120 million Americans, would be beyond unprecedented and IMHO complete fantasy.
What a stupid discussion. Hey let's argue about what will theoretically happen in a hypothetical scenario with no possible way to know the exact circumstances surrounding the event, or future unforeseen factors and wild cards...and we'll do it based on individual experiences in unrelated fields.
There are an almost infinite number of factors that could affect how the order is perceived and whether it is carried out or not.
100% Agreed
Moose-Knuckle
06-21-12, 01:29
Not really close to the same thing.
I merely provided you with an example for your query.
The US military being ordered to disarm 120 million Americans, would be beyond unprecedented and IMHO complete fantasy.
I dare not pretend to know what the likes of Holder fantasize about but I would be willing to bet that it is not conducive to the wellbeing of the Republic.
I merely provided you with an example for your query.
OK, but I would have went with the occupation of Southern States in the Spring and Summer of 1861..;)
I dare not pretend to know what the likes of Holder fantasize about but I would be willing to bet that it is not conducive to the wellbeing of the Republic.
His fantasies may get he and maybe his boss thrown out of office.
Moose-Knuckle
06-21-12, 01:55
OK, but I would have went with the occupation of Southern States in the Spring and Summer of 1861.
The War of Northern Aggression, that is a thread locker for sure! :p
When in US history were soldiers ever asked to obey an order, on the American mainland, that directly violated the Constituion that they swore to defend?
.
Japanese-American Internment
Katrina Response
Operation of UAV's for domestic surveillance.
Operations at check points, stadiums, protests. Other law enforcement functions. (Not a violation of the constitution, but of posse comitatus)
VooDoo6Actual
06-21-12, 05:21
Thanks. I believe its imperative to not just feel this way, but to express it to superiors before an event happens. You may ultimately prevent the order from ever happening.
Yes, I've had these discussions with coworkers and superiors.
Agreed 100%.
I have had similar discussions w/ several LEO's/Mil I co-instruct with, instruct & hang with socially. They have had the exact same concerns as yourself. In fact, had lunch today w/ a 8541 & D3 @ a PD in my AO regarding this exact same topic. He makes the correct & same analysis as you. That he is a citizen first, LEO second & that when he retires (which will be soon) he is still a citizen. He fully comprehends that he will still have to defend his family after his LEO status & knows the reality of that. He also understands the constitution and does not believe or play word scemantics with it's intent. He is well versed & conversant regarding history. He has followed the agenda closely & we regularly ping emails w/ Radar blips. Ironic that he has shared several "alternative sources" that have been spot on. Despite the MOU's etc., I find your attitude of intellectual honesty encouraging comparative to the head in the sand approach. He & countless others I associate w/ are dumfounded by the apathy, lack of cogent thought process seemingly paralyzed by fear (of ?) & media control.
If your ever in my AO & have a hankering for more training your my guest, au gratis. PM me please for PERSEC.
Japanese-American Internment
Katrina Response
Operation of UAV's for domestic surveillance.
Operations at check points, stadiums, protests. Other law enforcement functions. (Not a violation of the constitution, but of posse comitatus)
Still not close because the violation of the Constitution that would occur with a confiscation scenario would be blatantly obvious to even the dopiest soldier.
See here, The US vs Keenan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Keenan
"the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."
Japanese-American Internment
Katrina Response
Operation of UAV's for domestic surveillance.
Operations at check points, stadiums, protests. Other law enforcement functions. (Not a violation of the constitution, but of posse comitatus)
Still not close because the violation of the Constitution that would occur with a confiscation scenario would be blatantly obvious to even the dopiest soldier.
See here, The US vs Keenan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Keenan
"the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."
In any event, the documents will eventually be released and Eric Holder will be forced to retire. If it looks like they were trying to make a case for gun control than Obama is fried too.
Japanese-American Internment
Katrina Response
Operation of UAV's for domestic surveillance.
Operations at check points, stadiums, protests. Other law enforcement functions. (Not a violation of the constitution, but of posse comitatus)
Still not close because the violation of the Constitution in a confiscation scenario would be EXTREMELY large in scope and blatantly obvious to even the dopiest soldier.
See here, The US vs Keenan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Keenan
"the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."
In any event, the documents will eventually be released and Eric Holder will be forced to retire. If it looks like they were trying to make a case for gun control than Obama is fried too.
Japanese-American Internment
Katrina Response
Operation of UAV's for domestic surveillance.
Operations at check points, stadiums, protests. Other law enforcement functions. (Not a violation of the constitution, but of posse comitatus)
Still not close because the violation of the Constitution in a confiscation scenario would be EXTREMELY large in scope and blatantly obvious to even the dopiest soldier.
.....but it doesn't mater because it won't happen.
As to blindly following orders, see here, The US vs Keenan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Keenan
"the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."
In any event, the documents will eventually be released and Eric Holder will be forced to retire. If it looks like they were trying to make a case for gun control than Obama is fried too.
Belmont31R
06-21-12, 09:11
He was a known child molester holding those same children hostage. He and his group of heavily armed, brainwashed maniacs boasted that they would not be taken alive.
Your solution would have been...?
Arrest him on the street? Oh but they didn't have an arrest warrant...they had a search warrant that had nothing to do with child molestation or holding children hostage. They had two undercover people in there who testified the best resolution would have been to simply arrest him away from the compound. Instead the ATF wanted to make a big show after Ruby Ridge, and turn their image around.
If child molestation and holding children hostage was enough reason for what happened why did the ATF do the raid? Why was there not an arrest warrant issued?
Why did the gov lie about the drugs? Oh they wanted the military to get involved, and they have to claim drugs.
Why didn't the ATF work with the local LE who were already well aware of who the Davidians were. I mean there was not one single better option than coming up in cattle cars and trying to raid a huge compound with "heavily armed, brainwashed maniacs". Who would think the outcome would be any different?
Doc Safari
06-21-12, 09:48
As much as I also want to see Holder doused in political and legal napalm, using Waco to bolster one's argument diminishes credibility.
I disagree. The reason I cite that case is that it establishes a pattern of using law enforcement to further an anti-Second Amendment agenda.
Whether the Davidians were guilty or not, they were targeted to be made an example of so that the Assault Weapons ban would be more likely to pass.
Doc Safari
06-21-12, 09:56
He was a known child molester holding those same children hostage. He and his group of heavily armed, brainwashed maniacs boasted that they would not be taken alive.
Your solution would have been...?
I am certainly not a defender of David Koresh. He was a looney tune of the first order.
I believe the child molestation charges were "invented" when the ATF/FBI got tired of waiting for the siege to end. I also do not put much credibility in the claims that they were boasting they would not be taken alive.
I am also convinced--my opinion only--that the decision was made to "make an example of" those people for daring to resist with deadly force. Their death warrant was signed the moment scenes of them fighting back were aired on TV. My opinion only: I'm not bashing LEO's in any way for making that statement. Clearly beaureaucrats in Washington should be the ones to answer for it.
The solution would have been to continue the siege. No enemy under siege can hold out forever.
QuietShootr
06-21-12, 10:01
When in US history were soldiers ever asked to obey an order, on the American mainland, that directly violated the Constituion that they swore to defend?
What is your experience with confiscating weapons from US citizens?
BTW, I don't give a flying shit if your Gomer Pyle or General Patton. I don't believe the US military is comprised of 95% mindless robots as you suggest because the it wouldnt represent the general population from where they are drawn.
There is NO historical example of something this extreme to even consider so you have no clue what soldiers would or wouldn't do. And who says it would get that far.
There are, however, many examples of soldiers refusing to obey illegal, immoral, or unethical orders throughout US history.
OK, so the answer to my question is "None", then. That makes discussing this with you roughly equivalent to talking about rifle shooting at a thousand yards with a guy who has never shot a BB gun, but has a bunch of opinions anyway. Welcome to my ignore list:D
VooDoo6Actual
06-21-12, 10:03
I am certainly not a defender of David Koresh. He was a looney tune of the first order.
I believe the child molestation charges were "invented" when the ATF/FBI got tired of waiting for the siege to end. I also do not put much credibility in the claims that they were boasting they would not be taken alive.
I am also convinced--my opinion only--that the decision was made to "make an example of" those people for daring to resist with deadly force. Their death warrant was signed the moment scenes of them fighting back were aired on TV. My opinion only: I'm not bashing LEO's in any way for making that statement. Clearly beaureaucrats in Washington should be the ones to answer for it.
The solution would have been to continue the siege. No enemy under siege can hold out forever.
Really, ya think ?
and now we come full circle to the concern & crux of the matter...
QuietShootr
06-21-12, 10:03
Regardless of all the other issues, beliefs etc.
Just wanted to say I totally respect the fact that you are clear, know yourself & position w/o fear of saying it. I tip my hat Sir.
This, too.
OK, so the answer to my question is "None", then. That makes discussing this with you roughly equivalent to talking about rifle shooting at a thousand yards with a guy who has never shot a BB gun, but has a bunch of opinions anyway. Welcome to my ignore list:D
:cray:
Again, you have ZERO experience with any scenario even remotely similar.
Its a absurd argument. All this kind of talk does is drive up the price of guns and ammo.
QuietShootr
06-21-12, 12:27
:cray:
Again, you have ZERO experience with any scenario even remotely similar.
Son, hush. You're embarrassing yourself, and you're too green to even know it.
Son, hush. You're embarrassing yourself, and you're too green to even know it.
Paaaalleeeeze....I thought I was on your ignor list.
VooDoo6Actual
06-21-12, 12:35
So you mean like every smart business and every wise military does every day. :p
Ding, ding we have a winner.
Like CSA (Comprehensive Situational Awareness) is a "dirty thing" & NOT a personal choice.
...what will theoretically happen in a hypothetical scenario with no possible way to know the exact circumstances surrounding the event, or future unforeseen factors and wild cards...and we'll do it based on individual experiences in unrelated fields and anecdotal evidence with dubious predictive potential.
Our friend a0cake made this otherwise sensible response unpleasant because he dispensed it with his usual arrogance, but the point itself has merit. When possible circumstances are considered, they are usually done so by individuals who have first hand experience in the situations which they contemplate. At least to some meaningful extent.
As well, when we think about probable or even possible outcomes to any scenario, we do so based upon a degree of what can be expected. In other words, we wouldn't train our troops to be able to extricate themselves from a bubble gum trap because there is no reason to do so...yet. :secret:
QuietShootr
06-21-12, 14:17
Our friend a0cake made this otherwise sensible response unpleasant because he dispensed it with his usual arrogance, but the point itself has merit. When possible circumstances are considered, they are usually done so by individuals who have first hand experience in the situations which they contemplate. At least to some meaningful extent.
And when those possible circumstances are considered by individuals who have NO experience in the situation which they are contemplating, the probabilities of problems and the kind of solutions those individuals come up with are garbage and not worth the bandwidth they take up to write about them. You'd do as well to ask a roomful of virgins what their favorite thing about pussy is. You'd get lots of speculation, but nothing of any value at the end of the discussion.
Not really close to the same thing. The US military being ordered to disarm 120 million Americans, would be beyond unprecedented and IMHO complete fantasy.
The US military would not disarm 120 million Americans. The disarming of our population would be done step by step over a long period of time and it would end with most people turning their stuff in voluntarily.
It's not about confiscating firearms, knocking on doors, and raiding homes to collect guns. Its about reducing and restricting availability of firearms. You'd start with the extremes that don't have much political support (machineguns comes to mind), then moving to things that are are harder targets (semi-auto handguns and rifles), then eventually everything else that seems commonplace to many Americans (revolvers, hunting rifles, shotguns, and fucntional antiques).
You don't have to kick in doors and confiscate things, all you have to do is make them harder to get, harder to carry, harder to transport, harder to buy/sell, and make them registered items. Once you know who's got what, and where things are then you don't have to "go get em", just pass a law the requires them to be turned in. The result would be 90% of what's out there would be turned in voluntarily by us, the law abiding citizens of the US because of fear.
The hardcore 10% (or less) will be weeded out and dealt with in time, but 90% of your problem is solved if you can just reduce and restrict the availability of guns... or for that matter, ammo.
Oh and by the way I'm not a conspiracy nutjob, but if I was putting together a comprehensive plan to get guns out of the hands of citizens it would be something similar to this, not outright bans based on emotional fear or calling guns evil, or alot of the other stupid things the left does.
All that being said, does anyone have any facts, any super secret documents or even Holder's long lost sex tape?
No? ... Didn't think so.
So you mean like every smart business and every wise military does every day. :p
Ding, ding we have a winner.
Like CSA (Comprehensive Situational Awareness) is a "dirty thing" & NOT a personal choice.
LOL. "Smarts" and "wisdom" are conspicuously absent in the hypothesizing being done here, and THAT'S my point.
To do it correctly, as a "smart" or "wise" entity would, would require massive organizational effort, formulation of complex algorithms, compilation of massive amounts of data, and the construction of a LOGICAL set of metrics by which to reliably PREDICT future behavior.
The ability to postulate a consistent and reliable model for predicting the military's reaction to an order to go door to door confiscating guns UNDER ONE SINGLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES is completely out of reach for this thread's participants time and resource wise...never mind the NEARLY INFINITE sets of circumstances and variables that could possibly surround such an order.
Anyone claiming to know what would happen is lying to themselves and to you.
Now - you CAN throw your chips in one of the piles and prepare accordingly. Do what you want to prepare for such an event based off of your gut-instincts, experiences, and guesses. I'm not criticizing that. What I'm literally LOL'ing at is the idea that people think they KNOW what will happen and are arguing about it.
The ability to postulate a consistent and reliable model for predicting the military's reaction to an order to go door to door confiscating guns UNDER ONE SINGLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES is completely out of reach time and resource wise...never mind the NEARLY INFINITE sets of circumstances and variables that could possibly surround such an order.
Anyone claiming to know what would happen is lying to themselves and to you.
So wait...you served more than 10 minutes in the military and it isn't obvious that soldiers would blindly follow ANY order no mater how illegal or absurd it was? ;)
-------------
The resent surge in gun ownership is the best thing that could have happened for the 2nd Amendment. Most people who hate guns never touched one. As a recent article stated, I believe we are going through a "renormalisation" of the gun.
With more gun owners in the voting population there should be more people paying attention to these issues...and I think it is obvious that they are based on all the pro gun legislation that has been passed on a state level in the past decade.
I also feel that more people are waking up to what is going on with all the "hope and change" on PA Ave. I am cautiously optimistic and am slowly regaining my confidence in American exceptionalism.
So wait...you served more than 10 minutes in the military and it isn't obvious that soldiers would blindly follow ANY order no mater how illegal or absurd it was?
I served for more than 10 minutes and I can tell you without a doubt that there are plenty of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that will put their feelings aside and execute their orders regardless of how they feel about it.
I served for more than 10 minutes and I can tell you without a doubt that there are plenty of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that will put their feelings aside and execute their orders regardless of how they feel about it.
Maybe, but Nazis felt it necessary to hide the Haulacaust from all but select military units for a reason.
In any event, the primary reason the Second Amendment was added to the Contitution was to protect the population from the military if needed and too make the act of forcefully disarming the people a nearly impossible task.
I served for more than 10 minutes and I can tell you without a doubt that there are plenty of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that will put their feelings aside and execute their orders regardless of how they feel about it.
Of course "plenty" will be WILLING to carry out the order. This is not useful information. If you want to actually be able to do something proactive with information, it must be relatively specific.
There's a whole lot of "who, what, where, why, and how" that will affect whether the order ACTUALLY gets executed or not, how long the effort will persist in the face of difficulty, etc. To answer these questions is out of our breadth without a more substantive analysis.
If you don't believe me, consider the following single variable and its implications:
- A high visible and extremely polarizing event precipitates the order.
Seriously, think about it. The order would be almost necessarily surrounded by a highly charged, volatile set of circumstances. Do we know WHO this would affect emotionally or ideologically and HOW? No, because we don't even know what the event is.
Again, this is a complex question that would require a complex solution.
Battle*Hound
06-21-12, 19:31
As much as I also want to see Holder doused in political and legal napalm, using Waco to bolster one's argument diminishes credibility.
Really?? Regardless of any other facts, one holds true... the U. S. Gvmt murdered all those people in that building. Period. Murdered for embracing their individual rights as Americans. Do the research. There is enough documented audio/video evidence to make your head spin. It may even make you question your own 'credibility'.
RogerinTPA
06-21-12, 21:19
The Senator Giffords shooting and Palin using cross hairs to ID political areas, whipped the Dems into an Anti-Gun fervor to try to enact more gun banning legislation, while labeling the Tea Party and Republicans as creating a culture of hate and gun violence. If a higher governmental official (the highest in fact) would have been targeted, rest assured, many Republicans, out of political expedience/survival, would have went down that road, hand in hand with the Dems, to introduce severe anti-gun legislation and quite possibly confiscation. It's all BS speculation at this point.
Most of this thread is a 'what if' mental masturbation exercise. The 'idealist' in this thread come across as naive, out of touch with reality, head in the sand, chases too many butterflies, and appears to be in a coma.
Back to the original intent...what if the documents that are considered "privileged communication" is the smoking gun that proves that the Administration cooked up Fast & Furious to create a nexus for removing the 2A? What then? It would be the the first step in dismantling the Constitution. Isn't that the ultimate goal of the puppet masters, the inner circle & zsars of the POTUS, filled with communist, socialist & marxist, to bypass congress and turn us into the european model? If so, the hearings should be on the same level as the Nuremberg trials.
VooDoo6Actual
06-21-12, 22:11
Back to the original intent...what if the documents that are considered "privileged communication" is the smoking gun that proves that the Administration cooked up Fast & Furious to create a nexus for removing the 2A? What then? It would be the the first step in dismantling the Constitution. Isn't that the ultimate goal of the puppet masters, the inner circle & zsars of the POTUS, filled with communist, socialist & marxist, to bypass congress and turn us into the european model? If so, the hearings should be on the same level as the Nuremberg trials.
Preaching to the choir & several members here have been chanting that mantra for some time. We have our own collective data exchange & have come to this quite some time ago. We just alternate our posts until it becomes so painfully obvious the crickets are chirping....
Doc Safari
06-21-12, 22:40
Preaching to the choir & several members here have been chanting that mantra for some time. We have our own collective data exchange & have come to this quite some time ago. We just alternate our posts until it becomes so painfully obvious the crickets are chirping....
Sometimes you have to keep knocking to get someone to open the door.;)
Whatever the speculation might be as to the reason why Barry extended executive privilege to Holder, the fact is that Barry owns this scandal now. He could have remained detached, even asked for Holder's resignation to "spend more time with his family" or some horseshit.
But he chose to play the executive privilege card, and it will prove to be a tactical mistake equal to 18 minutes missing from a certain tape in the Nixon administration.
Wouldn't Gun Walker & Fast and Furious be considered an "act of war", if Mexico pushed it. The U.S. Government was arming a rogue entity that is at war with the Mexican Government, therefore subjoining a coup against said government.
This isn't a F&F thread, this is a Conspiracy thread.
Kinda sounds like all the other actions we have taken since WW2. Maybe we really want the gov of mexico over thrown. We armed Cubans, then we armed the Contra's and other factions in Central and South America.
Just business as usual.
Kinda sounds like all the other actions we have taken since WW2. Maybe we really want the gov of mexico over thrown. We armed Cubans, then we armed the Contra's and other factions in Central and South America.
Just business as usual.
We'll pretty much arm anyone if it works in the interests of the US .gov. :(
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 13:07
Shit just got real, MSM is now picking up on that F&F was Obama's way to limit 2A rights, it was in their words "a jump off project". Source, Fox News.
Shit just got real, MSM is now picking up on that F&F was Obama's way to limit 2A rights, it was in their words "a jump off project". Source, Fox News.
I'll bet the other MSM outlets will spin it as a partsan political op on the part of the Republlicans in Congress, not the DoJ and ATF in what they did to get people killed. :(
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 14:18
I'll bet the other MSM outlets will spin it as a partsan political op on the part of the Republlicans in Congress, not the DoJ and ATF in what they did to get people killed. :(
The left has already begun to circle the wagons, Pelosi was on last night saying "it's a witch hunt".
The left has already begun to circle the wagons, Pelosi was on last night saying "it's a witch hunt".
When did they link her to F&F? :)
RogerinTPA
06-22-12, 17:49
The left has already begun to circle the wagons, Pelosi was on last night saying "it's a witch hunt".
She also stated this was all about Holder's voter's registration stand against several states. She's obviously reaching and a ****in soup sandwich. Every time she opens her mouth some inconceivable bat shit crazy spin flys out of it. She really needs to GTFO of office.
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 18:02
When did they link her to F&F? :)
They didn't, she just opened her shit hole about how all of it (about Holder) is unjustified.
They didn't, she just opened her shit hole about how all of it (about Holder) is unjustified.
The post you are referring to was a joke, BTW......because Pelosi is a witch.
The louder they squawk, the warmer it's getting.
-
RogerinTPA
06-22-12, 19:11
I just did a google search on this conspiracy theory and found some links about the real reason for Fast and Furious. Some of the sources can be a little 'quirky', but if you notice the dates, they go back beyond a year ago, so it's been around for quite sometime:
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/hot-topics/fast-furious.aspx
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/LaPierre-NRA-gunrunning-fastandfurious/2011/10/14/id/414545
http://www.westernjournalism.com/proof-offered-for-2nd-amendment-busting-intent-of-fast-furious/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/
http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2011/06/28/the-fast-and-furious-assault-on-the-second-amendment/
http://www.coachisright.com/proving-the-2nd-amendment-busting-intent-of-gun-walking-and-fast-furious-schemes/
http://floydreports.com/melsons-testimony-proves-fast-and-furious-was-an-obama-plot/
http://www.examiner.com/article/nra-to-obama-stop-fast-and-furious-immediately
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/09/12/fast-and-furious-update-more-guns-more-stonewall/
I don't think FF can rightly be called a conspiracy theory at this point. It was clearly not just a failed operation. There's sufficient evidence to put this one in the books.
QuietShootr
06-22-12, 21:45
I don't think FF can rightly be called a conspiracy theory at this point. It was clearly not just a failed operation. There's sufficient evidence to put this one in the books.
And by that you mean it's no longer a theory, but an actual conspiracy, I hope. Better make that alles klar for the slowhead contingent.
And by that you mean it's no longer a theory, but an actual conspiracy, I hope. Better make that alles klar for the slowhead contingent.
Yep pretty much.
That he is a citizen first, LEO second & that when he retires (which will be soon) he is still a citizen.
Complete bullshit! Your clown ass LEO friend may want to spend a few minutes and re-read his oath of office.
montanadave
06-22-12, 22:32
Last October in the other F&F thread, I wrote:
Eric Holder might as well start packing his bags. He is "F" "U" "C" "K" ****ed.
We're in an election cycle, the economy continues to tank, the incumbent president is on the ropes, AND his Attorney General just got lit up for perjuring himself before the congressional Judiciary Committee.
See ya. Wouldn't want to be ya. The next thing he's gonna see is the underside of a bus.
Holder better count himself lucky if he can get out of D.C. without somebody slappin' the cuffs on him.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
I'm guessin' Obama would like a "do over" on this cluster ****.
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 22:59
Conspiracy "Theory" has just been mentioned on the factor tonight. Alright who's the RAT?
VooDoo6Actual
06-22-12, 23:04
Complete bullshit! Your clown ass LEO friend may want to spend a few minutes and re-read his oath of office.
Tell you what Mr. Complete bullshit,
Hit me a PM (of course we're going to verify your identity, background check, creds. etc.) I will give you his name & number & YOU can make your case with him.
Of course we will ALL expect you to say exactly what transpired including the part that you said he's a "clown ass" when you call, deal ?
Just to keep it real, cause I know the net etc. , I'm going to let him know to expect a call from you & that you did say he's a "clown ass"
I'm waiting....crickets chirping still
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 23:08
Last October in the other F&F thread, I wrote:
Shoulda, woulda, coulda.
I'm guessin' Obama would like a "do over" on this cluster ****.
Yep, he's the man behind the curtain, even has his evil munchkins doing his bidding. I tell you this country has become weak and failing the last three and a half years. Who is going to clean up the mess, because if it isn't we will be well on or way to be a faling nation.
montanadave
06-22-12, 23:25
Yep, he's the man behind the curtain, even has his evil munchkins doing his bidding. I tell you this country has become weak and failing the last three and a half years. Who is going to clean up the mess, because if it isn't we will be well on or way to be a faling nation.
Not to derail this thread, but this country was on the canvass before the current administration walked in the door. Not that they've done a real bang up job of getting us back in the game.
The political leadership of both parties have failed the American public miserably over the past twenty years.
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 23:29
We have a Site Sponsor and an Industry Professional going at it. Gentlemen please take it to PM. A recent quote I heard in a TV show said something to the effect of "Don't show the kids that Mom and Dad are fighting".
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 23:35
Not to derail this thread, but this country was on the canvass before the current administration walked in the door. Not that they've done a real bang up job of getting us back in the game.
The political leadership of both parties have failed the American public miserably over the past twenty years.
I couldn't agree more. Two sustained wars, natural disasters, inflated government, and general profiteering by big business, the financial industry, and inside our government was the killer. I know I missed a lot more causes.:big_boss: is the norm. Too many bosses, not enough workers.
He was a known child molester holding those same children hostage. He and his group of heavily armed, brainwashed maniacs boasted that they would not be taken alive.
Your solution would have been...?
The local Sheriff offered several possible choices for taking Howell into custody that would not have involved a raid. Sheriff Harwell even went so far as to offer to take the man into custody himself and hand him over to the BATF.
The fact that he "boasted he would never be taken alive" should have been ample reason for the BATF to follow one of Harwell's suggestions and arrest Howell on one of his many trips into town.
And with that, a hearty PLONK and placement on the ignore list.....
SW-Shooter
06-23-12, 01:07
The local Sheriff offered several possible choices for taking Howell into custody that would not have involved a raid. Sheriff Harwell even went so far as to offer to take the man into custody himself and hand him over to the BATF.
The fact that he "boasted he would never be taken alive" should have been ample reason for the BATF to follow one of Harwell's suggestions and arrest Howell on one of his many trips into town.
And with that, a hearty PLONK and placement on the ignore list.....
You have to forgive those with only rudimentary knowledge of history.
RogerinTPA
06-23-12, 09:29
When this is finally exposed for what it is, Holder needs to go to jail and both he and POTUS charged with treason.
Not to derail this thread, but this country was on the canvass before the current administration walked in the door.
This. :help:
VooDoo6Actual
06-23-12, 10:11
When this is finally exposed for what it is, Holder needs to go to jail and both he and POTUS charged with treason.
+1 100% to This
It ain't gonna happen unfortunately. (hint, it's part of that Big Fooking Train I made reference to earlier)
SCOTUS Obummercare ruling coming soon & I will reserve comment for further commentary on that matter.
We (the US) were circling the toilet bowl waaaaaaay before Bush. Capitolist Pigs (as Sonny Puzikas calls me) like me were busy having a party getting high & buzzed on our perceived needs, lifestyles, investments (myself included). I was profiteering from our Proxy Wars as a contractor at staggering remuneration scales never seen before & simultaneously making outlandish profits from passive Real Estae investments. Suddenly every American could own a home w/ NINJA Loans. The party is over & it sucks to hit the wall & the Rooster has come home to roost.
We are a Republic & were & still are pandering to special interests/double standards/obfuscating/prevaricating/skewing data/collusion/deceiving/lying et al aren't positive or envious virtues in my book. There was no OFF or STOP button even w/ GAO, it was & still is "Government Gone Wild". There's a lot more sub rosa but suffice it say, the "mirage" dope will continue.
The_War_Wagon
06-23-12, 13:06
This thread needs an illustration. :jester:
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/execpriv.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
06-23-12, 15:24
The political leadership of both parties have failed the American public miserably over the past twenty years.
I don't think they failed as it is "purpose by design". But you are correct; both parties have done their absolute damnedest to run this ship aground.
SW-Shooter
06-23-12, 18:26
'Suits' is one place I genuinely enjoy seeing lawyers. :D
OFF TOPIC
The Paralegal is the ultimate in hotness. I think she rates in the top 15 on TV or the big screen. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1620783/
QuietShootr
06-23-12, 19:10
LOL. "Smarts" and "wisdom" are conspicuously absent in the hypothesizing being done here, and THAT'S my point.
To do it correctly, as a "smart" or "wise" entity would, would require massive organizational effort, formulation of complex algorithms, compilation of massive amounts of data, and the construction of a LOGICAL set of metrics by which to reliably PREDICT future behavior.
The ability to postulate a consistent and reliable model for predicting the military's reaction to an order to go door to door confiscating guns UNDER ONE SINGLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES is completely out of reach for this thread's participants time and resource wise...never mind the NEARLY INFINITE sets of circumstances and variables that could possibly surround such an order.
Anyone claiming to know what would happen is lying to themselves and to you.
Now - you CAN throw your chips in one of the piles and prepare accordingly. Do what you want to prepare for such an event based off of your gut-instincts, experiences, and guesses. I'm not criticizing that. What I'm literally LOL'ing at is the idea that people think they KNOW what will happen and are arguing about it.
I know this: Every time an order has been given to use force against or confiscate arms from US citizens, someone has been willing to follow it. Sometimes a pretext is required first, as in Waco - call someone a methamphetamine-manufacturing child molester and you can pretty much drop a JDAM on their house and Joe Sixpack will cheer and blast Lee Greenwood on the stereo - but someone (or a whole lot of someones) will march into your campsite and burn and gas you out for the right pretext. I don't want to bring up the whole Civil War thing, so I'll just start at the Bonus Army and move forward from there.
US citizens were gassed, burned, and killed by US Infantry under the command of General MacArthur, using cavalry and tanks in support, simply because the Attorney General issued an order to move them out. I wonder why we haven't heard about any refuseniks from those units? Perhaps because there WEREN'T ANY.
SW-Shooter
06-23-12, 20:22
I know this: Every time an order has been given to use force against or confiscate arms from US citizens, someone has been willing to follow it. Sometimes a pretext is required first, as in Waco - call someone a methamphetamine-manufacturing child molester and you can pretty much drop a JDAM on their house and Joe Sixpack will cheer and blast Lee Greenwood on the stereo - but someone (or a whole lot of someones) will march into your campsite and burn and gas you out for the right pretext. I don't want to bring up the whole Civil War thing, so I'll just start at the Bonus Army and move forward from there.
US citizens were gassed, burned, and killed by US Infantry under the command of General MacArthur, using cavalry and tanks in support, simply because the Attorney General issued an order to move them out. I wonder why we haven't heard about any refuseniks from those units? Perhaps because there WEREN'T ANY.
I agree, when it comes down to it many in L.E. and .mil will follow orders. In an insurgency when the Military starts loses some of their own, they will turn on the populace, the same goes for Law Enforcement. To think otherwise is naive.
If you guys would understand and respond to what I'm actually saying, rather than what you think I'm saying, what you want me to be saying, or some false extrapolation of what I'm saying - then I could avoid about 90% of our interactions, which would be just great.
What I'm saying now and have said before, is that while of course a great many servicemen will comply with the order under a great many circumstances, there is NO REASON to treat it as a foregone conclusion in all future scenarios.
The unprecedented scope and scale inherent in the order indicates that a high-profile, volatile, and polarizing event or series of events would almost certainly have to precipitate its existence.
This would throw a "glitch into the matrix" and introduce a wild card that none of us can account for at this point in time.
So, again, I DO think it's highly likely that the order WOULD be carried out. I have not said otherwise. I'm saying that claiming to KNOW is foolish.
If you don't disagree, and I don't think most any reasonable person would, then we are arguing about nothing.
Errant and incorrect extrapolation of simple statements infects this forum like the plague. Example: Person A says "I'm against abortion." M4Carbine GD infers endless non-sequiturs about that person's other political beliefs, religious beliefs, economic theories, and on and on and on.
It's getting old.
RogerinTPA
06-23-12, 21:38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMKqsxlrQEI&feature=related
VooDoo6Actual
06-23-12, 21:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMKqsxlrQEI&feature=related
100% spot on
US Congrsssman Trey Gowdy gives a flicker of hope here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6RFylFMSHo&feature=player_embedded#!
You go Trey, it's all you Dawg !
RogerinTPA
06-23-12, 21:44
Actual White House briefing 24 Mar 09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc&feature=related
The smoking gun that POTUS & Holder knew back then???
VooDoo6Actual
06-23-12, 21:54
I agree, when it comes down to it many in L.E. and .mil will follow orders. In an insurgency when the Military starts loses some of their own, they will turn on the populace, the same goes for Law Enforcement. To think otherwise is naive.
spot on.
I agree as well. I can cite a plethora of case history.
Lon Horiuchi a la Ruby Ridge & WACO comes to mind & given immunity Supreme Clemancy Clause (dismissed) for shooting Weaver's pregnant wife.
Merely pointing out it could have been handled differently & instead of learning from these extremely unfortunate tragic exigent circumstances it is being stoked again now.
SW-Shooter
06-23-12, 22:55
Bush executive order
On June 23, 2006, the first anniversary of the Kelo decision, President George W. Bush issued Executive Order 13406 which stated in Section I that the federal government must limit its use of taking private property for "public use" with "just compensation", which is also stated in the constitution, for the "purpose of benefiting the general public." The order limits this use by stating that it may not be used "for the purpose of advancing the economic interest of private parties to be given ownership or use of the property taken". However, eminent domain is more often exercised by local and state governments, albeit often with funds obtained from the federal government.
Ever see a case of eminent domain that wasn't enforced by the local Law Enforcement. Hell they never respond with less than 2-3 units. Look at the cases where it was done for sheer profit by our government, whether federal, state, or municipality.
You bet your ass they follow orders, until it affects them personally. By then the military has merged within the local police departments and it's all one government, states be damned. That is really why we have a National Guard. Our Forefathers predicted this battle, and it'll come within the next 20 years at this pace.
VooDoo6Actual
06-23-12, 23:32
Complete bullshit! Your clown ass LEO friend may want to spend a few minutes and re-read his oath of office.
Mr. Complete Bullshit,
It's been over 24 hrs. which is reasonable amount of time for you to PM me for POC vectors. You have not.
I look @ what people do, not say...
Congratulations are in order, you have made an assclown of yourself on the NET.
You also made it to my admittedly small but coveted, IGNORE list.
We're done here.
Good For You Sir !
SW-Shooter
06-23-12, 23:33
The Miami shootout was in 1986 the FBI looked weak and ineffectual, they suffered through the humiliation of ABSCAM. They needed to project power, now they have been against citizens for over 25 years.
It's only going to get worse, now they have the BATF, DEA, and Homeland Security. They are well in position to stomp on your ass for the slightest of things deemed criminal.
CIA is running drugs out of Pakistan, or ignoring it. For ****s sake we've only been watching drug dealers since the days of the "junior G-Man".
Nation building without any benefit, nothing but loss in blood and coin. We've held bases in every country we've gone to war against, and won, I'm sorry that sounds bad( The troops didn't lose Vietnam, they were betrayed by their Government). Why are we going to stop now? The deal is Afghanistan is Vietnam all over again politically. They've neutered the military through the ROE, and they've announced a pullout date without victory. Here's the kicker, we are giving them U.S. weapons! Yes, we are re-arming our enemy. We'll be back, and many more fine young men and women will lose their lives.
Iraq, huh. We got took to the bank on that one, all of those dead and wounded, and for what. We didn't take any mining or mineral rights. Guess what we did, we trained em, and re-armed them. We'll be back there too, or we'll just ignore them for 20-30 years. All over again.
Cyclic......................
Arms sales, IMF, and foreign bribery. That's all we do when we send funds to other nations.
This country's government on both sides, have taken a sacred piece of paper and line item vetoed it.
Rant off. Needed to get that off of my chest. I'm good now.
SW-Shooter
06-23-12, 23:37
He hasn't been on since yesterday, well as of this post he hasn't.
Hopefully we can all agree that a solid 98% of the powers the Federal Government exercises are OUTSIDE the scope of its limited authority under the Constitution. Those powers not expressly defined and given to the Federal Government by the states, are and rightly should be State powers by default. The Feds is a pretty small list.
Now, where this comes into the convo: the 2A is a prohibition placed against the Feds by the States (as is the rest of the BoR). The Bill of Restrictions is a more accurate term. If the Feds violate that prohibition, it is up to the States and the people to protect themselves. They cannot take the 2A away, because it didn't come from them in the first place. Would anyone think twice about defending themselves from an escaped polar bear charging at his family at the zoo? Then why not defend against a National government that escaped its cage, charging at his family with ill intent?
We have these rights from birth, naturally. For the Feds to try to take these rights away would mean that they're violating our natural rights AND violating the Constitution.
The Constitution gives them their legal authority. It's why they exist. It's why they have power. To violate it means that they have cast aside the document which gave them authority in the first place. Therefore, we the people of the several states, can and should consider them as a rogue authority, acting outside of law. So it's a slippery slope for them. Throw out the law, and throw themselves out of power.
rant. sorry
That's why they need drones, millions of bullets, mandatory public education propaganda for your children, and seamless cooperation from local law enforcement up through to federal military: To ensure you don't ever get the mistaken impression that antiquated uppity Colonial republican attitude, or its associated individualistic libertarian free-thinking actions, is still relevant in our modern intellectualist progressive social democracy.
VooDoo6Actual
06-24-12, 01:11
Which translates to the coordinated effort to seize the four centers of power: political, monetary, intellectual and ecclesiastical.
BTW, excellent post SMETNA
People like Alex Jones (I know, I know, just bear with me) have been saying that the DHS and all the spying and growth of the surveillance state was for US NOT TERRORISTS for years.
I don't think anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear can deny that now. It's all for us.
This is something I've know for years. I was looking through old Facebook posts the other day, and I had posted a link to an article about how in 2009 the FBI intercepted over 8 million phone conversations under the patriot act. There's no way those were all suspected terrorists they were tracking. I'm willing to bet there were plenty of drug dealers, white-collar criminals, extremist bloggers, protesters, etc in the mix. Give an ant a crumb and he'll eventually want the whole pie.
Moose-Knuckle
06-24-12, 03:14
People like Alex Jones (I know, I know, just bear with me) have been saying that the DHS and all the spying and growth of the surveillance state was for US NOT TERRORISTS for years.
Orwell sounded the alarm fifty years prior.
Orwell sounded the alarm fifty years prior.
Agreed
He predicted a lot more than just the surveillance too
VooDoo6Actual
06-24-12, 05:40
Knew it too just tried to go along with the flow until it becomes so painfully obvious it's deafening. It's a viable discussion now since it is so painfully obvious. Which will no doubt dovetail into discussions of FEMA camps, fusion centers etc.
The norm in the past was "You need to tighten you Tin Foil Hat crap" etc. The problem is even though they sign "MOU's" they still are tacitly supporting it by intimidating or bullying w/ their comments. Those are the types which my radar says could care less regarding this Republic's constitution even if there was a unjust ROL. That lends credence to the opinion of whether or not LEO's would confiscate if given the command to. The Answer, you bet. The RAND Corp. has a Nationalize Police Force already planned etc. All paid for by tax $. I'll look at the date for further edification.
Part of that "Big Fookin Train coming" comments I made long time ago here.
I still believe that UAV's used initially in Astan (that has since been expended Pakistan, Yemen etc.) were the T&E for OCONUS deployment. Talk about mission creep. Of course the obvious question becomes how long unitil there armed CONUS ? I also believe that is another of several that come to immediate recall why US is still in Astan etc. Lets use GWOT as the cover (it sounds good & Patriots can get behind that) & then we'll change Patriots/Constitutional types (like it's a dirty or bad thing) into terrorists & dissenters of the gubbmint.
kind of brings this cryptic quote into focus & resonate more : "If the American people knew what we have done, they would string us up from the lamp posts."
George H. W. Bush
Interesting times indeed. Apparently if your opinion is in dissent w/ theirs then you must be a "Tinfoiler" despite the incontrovertible supporting evidence to the contrary etc. Despite the fact that 6 companies basically own the media & obvious that there is a media PsyOp transpiring, let's attack the sources connecting "the foilers" to their media citations....Then we'll play the paranoid card owwwww...
My circle continues to contract....
"Piss down my back but tell me it's raining."
VooDoo6Actual
06-24-12, 09:08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMKqsxlrQEI&feature=related
BTW, that ditzy dipshit bottled blond needs a muzzle.
RogerinTPA
06-24-12, 10:51
100% spot on
US Congrsssman Trey Gowdy gives a flicker of hope here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6RFylFMSHo&feature=player_embedded#!
You go Trey, it's all you Dawg !
Hopefully, Congressman Gowdy will effectively bring about the truth. Definitely wish there were more like him.
BTW, that ditzy dipshit bottled blond needs a muzzle.
Agreed. The way she shamelessly protects the current administration using false logic and using their talking points, makes me want to projectile vomit every time she opens her mouth. She's one of many reporters who chooses to ignores the truth, keep mute, refuse to report unfavorable news when conservative news outlets report breaking stories, and follow Berry's words religiously and without question. With legions of reporters and news outlets blindly supporting him, the FEMA Residential Prisons (ReEducation Camps) and Fusion cells popping up in every state who are accountable to no one, we may have in fact, crossed the point of no return.
VooDoo6Actual
06-24-12, 11:02
Hopefully, Congressman Gowdy will effectively bring about the truth. Definitely wish there were more like him.
Agreed. The way she shamelessly protects the current administration using false logic and using their talking points, makes me want to projectile vomit every time she opens her mouth. She's one of many reporters who chooses to ignores the truth, keep mute, refuse to report unfavorable news when conservative news outlets report breaking stories, and follow Berry's words religiously and without question. With legions of reporters and news outlets blindly supporting him, the FEMA Residential Prisons (ReEducation Camps) and Fusion cells popping up in every state who are accountable to no one, we may have in fact, crossed the point of no return.
Agreed,
Hitler had lots of help as well....
What's scarier is a couple of things that come to mind.
1) Regarding the female, that's the sperm that won ? WTF !
2) People are so critical thinking skills lacking to drink that much Kool Aid...frightening
3) as you know I have figured out a lot of this long time ago. It's about to go big w/ F&F. Wonder if gubmint will pull plug on Obummer etc. or Blowback control WFO ?
Doc Safari
06-24-12, 15:09
When this is finally exposed for what it is, Holder needs to go to jail and both he and POTUS charged with treason.
I think we need to bring back tar and feathers for Holder.
I think he sold this whole idea to Barry, and it was such a Cass Sunstein type of operation that he went for it.
Oh shit...I hear an unmanned drone overhead...:D
Agreed. The way she shamelessly protects the current administration using false logic and using their talking points, makes me want to projectile vomit every time she opens her mouth. She's one of many reporters who chooses to ignores the truth, keep mute, refuse to report unfavorable news when conservative news outlets report breaking stories, and follow Berry's words religiously and without question. With legions of reporters and news outlets blindly supporting him, the FEMA Residential Prisons (ReEducation Camps) and Fusion cells popping up in every state who are accountable to no one, we may have in fact, crossed the point of no return.
Her, Juan Williams, Bob Beckel, and Alan Colmes might as well be Obama spokespersons at FNC. Just like Obama what do they say, "This all started under the Bush Administration", when Wide Receiver was a totally different program. Guess they believe the "blame Bush" strategy will bring them another term. And the sad thing is that the sheeple will let it happen by voting for him again.
Her, Juan Williams, Bob Beckel, and Alan Colmes might as well be Obama spokespersons at FNC. Just like Obama what do they say, "This all started under the Bush Administration", when Wide Receiver was a totally different program. Guess they believe the "blame Bush" strategy will bring them another term. And the sad thing is that the sheeple will let it happen by voting for him again.
The sheeple are going to vote for him regardless. He could murder and they'd find a way to justify it and clear him. They can/could easily be outnumbered. I say could because the problem is too many people on the far right won't vote at all because they don't like Romney or write in a protest vote for someone who doesn't have a chance. Hopefully the independents that voted for BHO the first time will come to their senses this time.
Then the Ron Paul supporters if they can get him in as a 3rd party candidate will royally cluster**** things. They need to take one for the team this time.
The sheeple are going to vote for him regardless. He could murder and they'd find a way to justify it and clear him. They can/could easily be outnumbered. I say could because the problem is too many people on the far right won't vote at all because they don't like Romney or write in a protest vote for someone who doesn't have a chance. Hopefully the independents that voted for BHO the first time will come to their senses this time.
Then the Ron Paul supporters if they can get him in as a 3rd party candidate will royally cluster**** things. They need to take one for the team this time.
Too bad the Republicans didn't consider this when formulating their strategy to back Romney huh? :(
The sheeple are going to vote for him regardless. He could murder and they'd find a way to justify it and clear him. They can/could easily be outnumbered. I say could because the problem is too many people on the far right won't vote at all because they don't like Romney or write in a protest vote for someone who doesn't have a chance. Hopefully the independents that voted for BHO the first time will come to their senses this time.
Then the Ron Paul supporters if they can get him in as a 3rd party candidate will royally cluster**** things. They need to take one for the team this time.
I agree, no matter what Obama does the left just blindly defends him and blames Bush or anyone else they can.
Of course F&F was a ploy to ramp up anti-2a sentiment and further anti-2a legislation; the media circus/blitz being exactly timed with the operation was a big clue there. Anyone who had knowledge of this operation (Such a ****ed operation from the start) should be strung up from a light pole outside of congress and hanged.
Anyone who doesn't see the writing on the wall needs to get their head out of the sand big time.
Here's my take on the upcoming presidential election:
1) Romney is Obama Light (Just like McCain was Obama Light); in fact every "republican/GOP" candidate for quite sometime now has been "Left-wing-light".
2) Obama will win a 2nd term; it is already a lock.
3) Us "Ron Paul supporters" are the only ones who have the foresight to vote for someone with a viable plan to get America back on track; any other vote is throwing your vote away, period. Romney has nothing to offer, no plan that could possibly make a positive difference for this country other than getting Obama out of office (That would be one of very few positives in electing Romney; which is pathetic for the GOP). Just like Obama and 99% of all the politicians out there; gaining power is priority #1.
http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/ron-paul-plan-to-restore-america/
^^Take a look, it is the only plan on the table that would begin to get us back on track; what Obama wants to do is ludicrous, and Romney is right behind him a bit to the "right" as it were.
Romney would continue the puppet-show with a big hand up his ass controlling him every step of the way- just as Bush did, as Obama continues to do, as they are all supposed to; the puppet show will go on until we as citizens actually do something to stop it and take back the Republic that was stolen from us long ago.
"Take one for the team"? Please explain this to me in detail; as I don't see any teams except for: Team Gummint Vs. Team Citizen.
Left or right, liberal or conservative, republican or democrat (Republocrats is what I call them- as I see it as a defacto single party system) they all do the same thing; play the game to get more power, using the citizens of this country as pawns in a huge chess game.
Both sides say one thing to get elected and then do whatever benefits their pocektbooks and portfolios whilst in office; haven't you noticed this?
Why do you think the Repub's and demo's get together to fight 3rd party candidates- anytime they have a chance? It is because they like the 2 party (Defacto single party) system and aim to keep it that way. Bi-Partisan politics is the norm, they walk hand in hand on 90% of issues and tow the line to keep the status quo.
We need a third party injection for so many reasons; and so very badly. Voting for anyone that doesn't have a viable plan to get us back on track is TRULY throwing away your vote; and pathetic.
This dog and pony show is getting so very old...
Voting for anyone that doesn't have a viable plan to get us back on track is TRULY throwing away your vote; and pathetic.
First, well put on all points in your post THC.
Second, I don't personally think that there is enough voters out there to get Barack a 2nd term (given that the Republicans don't divide). If he does get a second term, then it will confirm some things to me (and I'm sure others) about the validity of the elections in the first place.
Third, I agree with the part of your post that I quoted above, based on the premise that you layed out about the "defacto single party system"...however, voting for anyone in November not named "Romney" is basically throwing your vote away as well. Unfortunately, and realistically, no third party candidate has a chance of winning since they are "outsiders". There's too many "establishment" types who don't want them there for them to have any real traction in a race as large as a Presidential race. Third party can work for smaller races, but unfortunately its just the way it is, and has been, for way too long with the Presidential race.
This dog and pony show is getting so very old...
Indeed.
Too bad the Republicans didn't consider this when formulating their strategy to back Romney huh? :(
Their formulated strategy? Maybe they felt he was the most viable candidate and did spur things along but he could've just as easily been defeated in the primaries like he was in 2008. Sure, they're going to back him now but they really don't have a choice at this point. If they didn't it would be the equivalent of supporting Obama. "Umm, we don't really like Romney, but he's all we have right now." and a brokered convention would've made the party look weak.
I think the primaries played a larger part in that. I'm not a big fan of his but it is what it is. Everyone ask yourself, do you want BHO as your next President or Romney? It really is that simple. Hold your nose if you have to but no one can blame anyone but themselves if they don't vote for Romney. Sure, I have more than a few issues with the guy but they're a drop in the bucket compared to my issues with BHO.
I agree, no matter what Obama does the left just blindly defends him and blames Bush or anyone else they can.
Of course F&F was a ploy to ramp up anti-2a sentiment and further anti-2a legislation; the media circus/blitz being exactly timed with the operation was a big clue there. Anyone who had knowledge of this operation (Such a ****ed operation from the start) should be strung up from a light pole outside of congress and hanged.
Anyone who doesn't see the writing on the wall needs to get their head out of the sand big time.
Here's my take on the upcoming presidential election:
1) Romney is Obama Light (Just like McCain was Obama Light); in fact every "republican/GOP" candidate for quite sometime now has been "Left-wing-light".
2) Obama will win a 2nd term; it is already a lock.
3) Us "Ron Paul supporters" are the only ones who have the foresight to vote for someone with a viable plan to get America back on track; any other vote is throwing your vote away, period. Romney has nothing to offer, no plan that could possibly make a positive difference for this country other than getting Obama out of office (That would be one of very few positives in electing Romney; which is pathetic for the GOP). Just like Obama and 99% of all the politicians out there; gaining power is priority #1.
http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/ron-paul-plan-to-restore-america/
^^Take a look, it is the only plan on the table that would begin to get us back on track; what Obama wants to do is ludicrous, and Romney is right behind him a bit to the "right" as it were.
Romney would continue the puppet-show with a big hand up his ass controlling him every step of the way- just as Bush did, as Obama continues to do, as they are all supposed to; the puppet show will go on until we as citizens actually do something to stop it and take back the Republic that was stolen from us long ago.
"Take one for the team"? Please explain this to me in detail; as I don't see any teams except for: Team Gummint Vs. Team Citizen.
Left or right, liberal or conservative, republican or democrat (Republocrats is what I call them- as I see it as a defacto single party system) they all do the same thing; play the game to get more power, using the citizens of this country as pawns in a huge chess game.
Both sides say one thing to get elected and then do whatever benefits their pocektbooks and portfolios whilst in office; haven't you noticed this?
Why do you think the Repub's and demo's get together to fight 3rd party candidates- anytime they have a chance? It is because they like the 2 party (Defacto single party) system and aim to keep it that way. Bi-Partisan politics is the norm, they walk hand in hand on 90% of issues and tow the line to keep the status quo.
We need a third party injection for so many reasons; and so very badly. Voting for anyone that doesn't have a viable plan to get us back on track is TRULY throwing away your vote; and pathetic.
This dog and pony show is getting so very old...
You make some good points.
However, a third party candidate will NEVER be elected. There are too many party loyalists for that to happen. Make no mistake...I like Ron Paul and many of his ideas like a strong fiscal policy as well as his military and regulated border policy. For the most part, I don't see a problem with that, especially his views on religious and a few social issues. Lax drug laws, I have somewhat of a problem with. Could they be revamped or handled by the states? Sure but that is shit we can sort out after we get the current lunatic and his staff out of office.
Yes, both Ds and Rs do like the 2 party system but they didn't start it. It's always worked that way by design of the nation. A 3rd party candidate will always split the vote between the two so they're wasted votes. My political science is rusty but the founders knew the two party system stops radical swing change in either direction. The balance of power is divided so no one gets "their way" all the time. If BHO had his way and all of Congress and the Supreme Court were liberals, how ****ed would we be right now? How much time would the next Republican have to spend to undo and amend the shit he would do? If W would've gotten his way all the time we'd probably be similarly screwed. I disagree that Ds and Rs walk hand in hand 90% of the time. Congressmen do need term limits though. By the time people get upset enough to vote a lot of them out, they've already been corrupted by Washington, their pockets are fat, and they haven't made a damned thing better.
First, well put on all points in your post THC.
Second, I don't personally think that there is enough voters out there to get Barack a 2nd term (given that the Republicans don't divide). If he does get a second term, then it will confirm some things to me (and I'm sure others) about the validity of the elections in the first place.
Third, I agree with the part of your post that I quoted above, based on the premise that you layed out about the "defacto single party system"...however, voting for anyone in November not named "Romney" is basically throwing your vote away as well. Unfortunately, and realistically, no third party candidate has a chance of winning since they are "outsiders". There's too many "establishment" types who don't want them there for them to have any real traction in a race as large as a Presidential race. Third party can work for smaller races, but unfortunately its just the way it is, and has been, for way too long with the Presidential race.
Indeed.
Bingo. If this thing blows up like I hope it does, enough Ds will jump ship as some are saying they already are.
RogerinTPA
06-27-12, 17:42
We REALLY need to get rid of the winner take all aspect and shit can the Electoral College, and make it a "one man one vote" system.
Their formulated strategy? Maybe they felt he was the most viable candidate and did spur things along but he could've just as easily been defeated in the primaries like he was in 2008. Sure, they're going to back him now but they really don't have a choice at this point. If they didn't it would be the equivalent of supporting Obama. "Umm, we don't really like Romney, but he's all we have right now." and a brokered convention would've made the party look weak.
I think the primaries played a larger part in that. I'm not a big fan of his but it is what it is. Everyone ask yourself, do you want BHO as your next President or Romney? It really is that simple. Hold your nose if you have to but no one can blame anyone but themselves if they don't vote for Romney. Sure, I have more than a few issues with the guy but they're a drop in the bucket compared to my issues with BHO.
No. No ifs ands buts or maybes, just flat out NO. The GOP chose Romney, so they need to live with that choice. They took for granted that the true conservatives of the party would back him, and now they're worried that they made a mistake. You're damned right they did! I an sick and tired of being taken for granted. I am not willing to perpetuate this farce for even one more election. I haven't voted for anything but the lesser of two evils in a quarter of a century and I'll be damned if I'm going to do it anymore!
You can sit in your high and mighty chair of judgement over me all you want, but I REFUSE to accept the blame for a 2nd Obama term. The GOP chose their man and if it means a 2nd Obama term and stacking the SCOTUS with flaming liberals and gun control and all the other negative consequences that go with that fate, it is theirs and THEY chose it!
If they fail in their pussy-assed attempt to curry favor with the middle and we get another Obama term, well it's a lesson they damn sure earned! :mad:
I'm voting for Gary Johnson, period!
That would play really well into the hands of the left, as they manipulate their dependent masses and push for legalizing illegals in order to gain their votes as well.
Certainly viable, but there's also been more than once that the EC did as they damn well pleased regardless of the popular vote.
Honestly, both systems suck in thier own way, but what compromise between them, or outright whole new way to go about it is there that could work fairly and effectively?
Belmont31R
06-27-12, 22:32
Regarding 3rd party politics the only reason one cannot get elected right now is because both parties have put in place such staunch DELEGATE protection schemes they are getting police to do their dirty work in certain cases.
I learned about our local delegate process and its so corrupt the only purpose it serves is to make sure our local delegates vote for the GOP pick. The GOP controls our reps votes by way of campaign funds and redistricting.
People our right that the GOP is only SLIGHTLY to the right of the DNC. Like it or not government, spending, and the debt went up greatly under GOP control from 2001-2007. We got DHS, TSA, NCLB, and a host of other big government programs. Romney is much further left than Bush was, and those programs I mentioned happened under Bush.
While I think Obama is a socialist idiot, and yes I mean...idiot...I don't think he is at all the intellect people said he is...I don't think Romney has any positions that will differ all that much from Obama. And I don't really care what he has to say now. He is a perfect example of say what people want to hear to get elected then do the exact opposite. He is a populist which means you cannot trust him. He desires high office and frankly you want people who DONT want to be there to do the job not people who are power hungry. Last election he spent millions of his own personal money. I dont trust power hungry people.
But the reason we are talking about this is because the populace has been conditioned over the decades to accept socialism, and we have a legion of old folks who "paid into the system" so they are not going to give up their socialist programs at retirement age. They allowed themselves to get ****ed over their entire working lives so now they will vote to **** over the 20-40 generations "to get their investment back".
I don't really see a way to turn things around.
No, it's not clear, and if there was anything substantive to this beyond your desire to start a conspiracy thread then you would have already posted it.
Oh c'mon use your head man. When the fast and furious program was set in action there was a big media and white house push for UN Small Arms Treaty to be voted. The White House/Libs...new that they don't stand a snow balls chance in hell to pass another Assault Weapons Ban, but they figured they could circumvent this by bringing international pressure....ie....Mexico's whining about how the US was supplying weapons to Mexicans and these weapons were killing innocent Mexican citizens...this was all orchestrated to get the US to join the Small Arms Treaty and then we would have UN regulations against owning weapons......If you can't see this then I don't know what to tell you....I guess you don't believe that the liberals are pushing for Mexican illegals to be given amnesty to bolster the Liberals numbers allowing them to dictate future government policy? The great influx of immigrants to this country is for the purpose of diluting the white majority and creating a rift among the people. If people are more worried about what's going on in their neighborhoods or at work then they will be less likely to worry about what the gov't is doing.....I don't think a single person on this forum can argue the fact that the cohesiveness of the american people has been greatly erroded over the past 25yrs......
Its simple guys...if we want to reclaim this country then we need to:
1. Stop illegal immigration and place more strict guidlines on who we allow in this country. The Japanese were allowed to immigrate to this country unless they possessed a skill and could show assets so that they were not a burden on this country...look it up. Hell a lot of countries around the world have the same rules...I believe New Zealand even has a point system in place for immigrants.
2. Term limits....we place them on ALL gov't elected officials....and we should vote for our supremem court justices as well.....i'm tired of seeing the scotus hand decisions split along party lines....
3. spending caps....we place spending caps on ALL gov't elected officials...and we go to a true majority vote.....1 vote 1 person....screw this electoral college bullshit...it's a joke.
4. Eliminate pacs ....these pacs are no good....they are there to promote special interests for themselves not for the people.
5. Eliminate pensions for our congressmen....pay them a hefty wage for the time they're in office. I think that's fair..it's an important job and is a very demanding job....eliminate special services and considerations for gov't officials....did you know that a congressman cannot be charged with insider trading? that they have special healthcare and investment portfolios? This is crap.....get rid of these perks.....make it what it is....a duty to your country....you serve because of altruism...you want to help to create policies for the betterment of the country...not to grab what you can while you're in office.....
If we do this then we can have true americans elected to gov't posts....who feel it is their duty to serve not so fleece the american people and fill their pockets.....I'd say this is all pretty simple and straight forward...hell when I was a kid this is how i thought gov't worked....i was appalled when I minored in poli sci and learned differently!! shit......
Those are all fixes for the federal government. But the federal government has been growing like a cancer upon us. You cannot reform a cancer, you can only remove it.
Therefore, all that bullshit is wasted effort. What would truly fix America is a grass-roots, from the small towns up, campaign of nullification. To fill our city and county and state governments with good people, and then begin declaring many federal laws and regulations unconstitutional and nullify them.
To try to fix the federal government at this point is useless. There can be no compromises with tyranny. State ****ing Nullification is the answer.
smetna - I think you misunderstood me...when I said ALL elected gov't officials I meant ALL......from the freakin dog catcher on up......even the county sherrif......these are public service positions.....these people do not need to make a carreer out of public service......that way they can make the decisions they need to make without worrying whether or not they're gong to be re-elected each time.....get the ALL of these corrupt officials the hell out of our gov't.....make em get real jobs...we do this and we won't see sherrifs making 400K/yr in small towns with mayors making about the same.....it's crazy just how corrupt ALL levels of gov't have become.
VooDoo6Actual
06-28-12, 00:57
Those are all fixes for the federal government. But the federal government has been growing like a cancer upon us. You cannot reform a cancer, you can only remove it.
Therefore, all that bullshit is wasted effort. What would truly fix America is a grass-roots, from the small towns up, campaign of nullification. To fill our city and county and state governments with good people, and then begin declaring many federal laws and regulations unconstitutional and nullify them.
To try to fix the federal government at this point is useless. There can be no compromises with tyranny. State ****ing Nullification is the answer.
Probably the best & most sensical way to go about it. You are on th right path imo.
smetna - I think you misunderstood me...when I said ALL elected gov't officials I meant ALL......from the freakin dog catcher on up......even the county sherrif......these are public service positions.....these people do not need to make a carreer out of public service......that way they can make the decisions they need to make without worrying whether or not they're gong to be re-elected each time.....get the ALL of these corrupt officials the hell out of our gov't.....make em get real jobs...we do this and we won't see sherrifs making 400K/yr in small towns with mayors making about the same.....it's crazy just how corrupt ALL levels of gov't have become.
Gotcha.
polymorpheous
06-28-12, 03:11
I'm voting for Gary Johnson, period!
Count me in!
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