View Full Version : Folder, Under 3", EDC and Defensive Tool... options?
I know, it's quite the restrictions. But you can thank the State of Michigan and my local laws for that...
I found out recently the blades I've been carrying, though legal in my state, are not legal in my City of business or Township I live in. So I need some good options, since it's summer and there are the occasional areas I cannot get away with hiding a firearm.
Legal Criteria:
No Fixed.
Under 3" Blade.
Personal Criteria:
Durable.
Comfortable for EDC.
Holds an edge well.
Not extremely expensive (I'd cap my limit around $120).
Can be pressed into a defensive weapon if needed (well thought out design, quick to deploy, etc.)
If you could give reasons why it makes a good defensive EDC knife given the restrictions, it would be much appreciated. I'm not looking for a "this is what I bought, so it's what you should buy" thread. Let me know why you bought it, and what else you considered if you don't own anything else.
Gracias Amigos.
I carry a small fixed blade, but before I went that route, I was looking into the Kershaw line of knives with the assisted opening feature. My criteria was much like yours minus the limitation on blade length.
If defense is ultimately what you are after here, then what I would do, if this is still within legal limits, is find a folder that matches your criteria (obviously) but carry it like a fixed blade. I made a kydex sheath for my fixed blade that fits on my belt running horizontal (parallel with the belt) attached by innertube. I would do this same thing with the folder locked out in the open position. This might even negate the need to find one that is assisted opening if you want to carry this way. You could make a sheath for the belt and/or one for a pocket, but just treat it like a fixed blade.
As far as I know, nobody ever said you had to carry a folder in the closed position :p
And I have a sneaky suspicion that making a sheath would be the least of your worries ;)
SW-Shooter
06-22-12, 15:15
I was going to say the ZT0350, but the blade is 1/4 of an inch too long. I'd love to give you the reasons why I bought it but alas it doesn't fit your criteria.
ETA: How important is the blade steel used? Is AUS8 acceptable, S30V?
If defense is ultimately what you are after here, then what I would do, if this is still within legal limits, is find a folder that matches your criteria (obviously) but carry it like a fixed blade. I made a kydex sheath for my fixed blade that fits on my belt running horizontal (parallel with the belt) attached by innertube. I would do this same thing with the folder locked out in the open position. This might even negate the need to find one that is assisted opening if you want to carry this way. You could make a sheath for the belt and/or one for a pocket, but just treat it like a fixed blade.
As far as I know, nobody ever said you had to carry a folder in the closed position :p
And I have a sneaky suspicion that making a sheath would be the least of your worries ;)
That's a great idea. I've actually made sheaths for folders for folks here in MI before, and always thought it was weird. But that makes total sense. I'll do another read through of the law, but that's pretty genius.
So I guess another area of criteria would be balanced well, incase it is carried open. I suppose that would mean a handle that isn't very heavy compared to the blade?
I was going to say the ZT0350, but the blade is 1/4 of an inch too long. I'd love to give you the reasons why I bought it but alas it doesn't fit your criteria.
ETA: How important is the blade steel used? Is AUS8 acceptable, S30V?
That's the exact knife I've wanted for a long time, and almost bought off a friend recently. I had to speak with a local LEO after hearing about local laws saying it has to be under 3" whereas MI allows 3 1/4". I really love that knife, and I'm sure for most the reasons you do as well. It's also a very popular knife here in MI - and after handling one awhile back I was sold. That's where the $120 maximum price point comes from - because I know in the back of my mind I could have what I wanted for that amount (ZT0350). I will probably purchase it at some point for traveling to other areas in MI.
I'm admittedly not very well versed on blade steel. I generally use my folders as cutting tools, but the more I learn about extreme close quarter combat, I am starting to see the need of having a blade as a line of defense.
I'd like something that holds an edge well, as I generally use my folders as a cutting tool nearly everyday. I would rate holding an edge as more important than ease of sharpening. Life gets too crazy, so I generally prefer things I can abuse and forget about. Upkeep of gear isn't one of my strong points (why I probably won't own a 1911 anytime soon).
Defaultmp3
06-22-12, 16:47
The Emerson CQC-14 (http://www.emersonknives.com/ekCQC14.php) was made with this in mind. No personal experience with it, though, although the steel is a fairly decent one and Emerson's got a decent following.
I had to speak with a local LEO after hearing about local laws saying it has to be under 3" whereas MI allows 3 1/4".
Not sure where you got the 3 1/4", as state law only references blade length (3") in conjunction with intent to use unlawfully against the person of another. There is no other mention of blade length in the statutes.
City ordinances are another matter. There is not pre-emption statute, as there is with respect to firearms. Some municipalities have blade length limits of as little as 2".
Take a look at the Spyderco Waved Delica. Inexpensive, good quality and very fast to deploy. You could get two, reverse the clip on one, and carry one on each side.
Generally, these are the types of knives I buy. They carry well, and are not intimidating to the sheeple. Not to mention the fact that they are mostly legal everywhere (very few municipalities say 3" is too much). Keep in mind, depending on where you're living, the law may be ambiguous about the legality of assisted openers, too.
Quality steels are generally 154CM and VG-10 from my experience. S30V is probably considered the industry gold standard for folding knives, it keeps its edge a bit better than 154CM and VG-10, at the cost of being harder to sharpen.
After trying out different types of knives for this role, the ones I liked best were the Benchmade Mini-Griptilian and the Spyderco Delica. Both are ~2.9" inches, manual openers but open very fast with practice. Speaking of practice, both have training models that you can buy if you get serious about training for self defense with them. From research, the lock on the Benchmade is stronger, but that's not from personal experience, since neither has failed on me. For self defense purposes, I noticed something when I was thrusting both into a piece of wood (with heavy gloves on) to test how sturdy they were. The Delica has this thumb ramp in the front where Spyderco opener hole is, and when your thumb slides up on it, it can kind of jam your thumb. Ironic, since that well-jimped thumb ramp is actually quite useful for choking up on the blade during cutting tasks. For this reason, as well as the strength of the Axis lock (and how fun it to play with), my daily carry choice tends to be the Benchmade Mini-Griptilian. As a bonus, this model has several blade shapes depending on preference. I like the 556 model (spear point) best, but you might have your own preference.
Others I owned included S&W folders for throwaway cheap knives I can trash, Kershaws for assisted openers. For your purposes, which mirror my purposes frankly, I liked the Benchmade and Spyderco better.
Isn't there something on the book's about carrying a small fixed blade if in possesion of a valid hunting license (small game)?
ehcarl2983
06-23-12, 13:13
Benchmade's Mini-Griptilian, fits your bill.
SWATcop556
06-23-12, 14:51
The Emerson CQC-14 (http://www.emersonknives.com/ekCQC14.php) was made with this in mind. No personal experience with it, though, although the steel is a fairly decent one and Emerson's got a decent following.
Steve this is probably the one I would go with. I have several Emerson blades and love them. If you're looking for a blade that will be an EDC and double for defense this should be a front runner.
Emerson blades are beyond sharp too. Just ask Iraqgunz how sharp mine is. We were having lunch the other day and I cut the ever loving piss out of my finger with little effort. I guess that's what I get for trying to do everything with one damn hand right now. :shout:
misanthropist
06-23-12, 15:38
I would probably just buy a Delica. I have had good service from my plain-jane Endura but I believe it is a little large for your requirements.
I have had a good handful of customs and high end knives...I just carry an Endura for most chores now.
SW-Shooter
06-23-12, 18:35
Steve this is probably the one I would go with. I have several Emerson blades and love them. If you're looking for a blade that will be an EDC and double for defense this should be a front runner.
Emerson blades are beyond sharp too. Just ask Iraqgunz how sharp mine is. We were having lunch the other day and I cut the ever loving piss out of my finger with little effort. I guess that's what I get for trying to do everything with one damn hand right now. :shout:
FWIW, I've read or heard something about Emerson knives shouldn't be used to stab. I don't know how valid that is though.
Kershaw makes some nice folders, the speed assist is a nice feature.
Spyderco's have never been my cup of tee, I've owned a few, but they were hit and miss on the ease of opening.
If you can carry an assisted knife, I'd recommend a Benchmade mini-Barrage. The 154CM holds an edge well and sharpens easily. The only drawback is that if you want to adjust the pivot, you have to take a scale off.
http://www.knifeworks.com/search.aspx?find=mini+barrage
(Knifeworks discounts their Benchmades when you enter their code at checkout)
For a non-assisted knife, take a look at the Ritter mini RSK Mk1...essentially a Benchmade mini-Griptilian with a different profile CPM S30v blade.
http://www.knifeworks.com/dougritterminirskmk1stonewasheds30vblade.aspx
Jim
From research, the lock on the Benchmade is stronger, but that's not from personal experience, since neither has failed on me.
For this reason, as well as the strength of the Axis lock (and how fun it to play with), my daily carry choice tends to be the Benchmade Mini-Griptilian.
I've done some research on the Axis lock and I can't say I'd trust my life to it. The lock uses Omega springs which can wear out over time, I'd rather not have that in the back of my mind. (Spyderco's version of the lock fixes this issue.)
To the OP, I agree with the others who suggested the Spyderco Delica4 (Full Flat Ground). It's light, affordable, and uses VG-10 blade steel. Also, they are available in any color of the rainbow if that's important.
SWATcop556
06-23-12, 20:18
FWIW, I've read or heard something about Emerson knives shouldn't be used to stab. I don't know how valid that is though.
I would be curious to hear more about this. I've never heard this and would be very interested in the source. If you find a link or remember where you heard it let me know.
With few exceptions I've carried an Emerson for almost a decade and have few complaints. I'm always open to hear info though.
If your upper limit is $120, you have some truly good options. Many are already mentioned.
My mainstay has been the Spyderco Delica, in various variants and colors. They are stout enough to do what's needed, but inexpensive enough that they can be lost or abandoned with little heartache.
I'd probably go with the mini CQC-7W or one of the Emerson Karambits.
Kershaw leek. Buy 2.
Fetep
warpedcamshaft
06-24-12, 00:05
The Spyderco Delica is a good blade. I like the flat grind version better than the saber grind, but that depends more on preference. The deployment hole and the thumb ramp are two things that I like about the Delica. VG-10 steel has really impressed me. Spyderco has many great knives and designs.
It sounds really stupid, but if you use a wire tie around the deployment hole, you can get a reliable "Wave" style deployment which I find works the best for me for fast deployment without a re-grip (forward grip). This is as close to a fixed blade speed as I can get personally.
Benchmades! Mini-griptillian may fit your needs, but it is harder for me to grip when stabbing than the Delica. They make a lot of really good blades, and I like 154CM steel very well.
Look over some of the Cold-Steel offerings (New mini-recons, lawman, mini ak47)... They get a lot of flak, but have some good designs.
Emerson.
I like some Kershaws, but a knife like the LEEK is a bad choice if you want to use it for emergency defensive use. Any fluid on your hands and the stainless steel or aluminum handles get really slippery. They do make a G10 version of the leek... But try to stick to G10 or Fiberglass reinforced nylon type grips/bodies for traction.
If you can carry an assisted knife, I'd recommend a Benchmade mini-Barrage. The 154CM holds an edge well and sharpens easily. The only drawback is that if you want to adjust the pivot, you have to take a scale off.
http://www.knifeworks.com/search.aspx?find=mini+barrage
(Knifeworks discounts their Benchmades when you enter their code at checkout)
For a non-assisted knife, take a look at the Ritter mini RSK Mk1...essentially a Benchmade mini-Griptilian with a different profile CPM S30v blade.
http://www.knifeworks.com/dougritterminirskmk1stonewasheds30vblade.aspx
Jim
I'll second tailrotor's suggestion on the Ritter Mini RSK Mk1. I've used the full size Mk1 for the last five years without any problems. Excellent edge hold, premium S30V steel, the Axis blade lock is rock solid and allows easy closure. Plus Benchmade offers this service,
http://www.benchmade.com/services/lifesharp_service.aspx
I would be curious to hear more about this. I've never heard this and would be very interested in the source. If you find a link or remember where you heard it let me know.
With few exceptions I've carried an Emerson for almost a decade and have few complaints. I'm always open to hear info though.
I believe this could be due to many Emerson knives not having any protection to keep your hand from slipping over the knife. This has been a concern of mine with my mini CQC-7B, but I believe the CQC-14 has a better grip. Overall, it doesn't stop me from carrying it daily.
Steve,
You and I are in the same position. I just finished up with Shivworks ECQC and it opened my eyes to quite a few things regarding blades and their applications. First off, fixed blades carried at about 10 to 11:00 rule the day. Folders suck to try to deploy from a pocket with two 220lb dudes on top of you, while simultaneously trying not to get shot. MI laws unfortunately leave us with little choice however (as already stated). My initial solution was the same as already mentioned, just carry a folder in fixed position. For this, I am looking heavily at the Benchmade 530. Thin, light, and concealable.
The other option which would work very well in either a folded or fixed position is the Spydie P'kal. One of the students had the matching knife and trainer and used if VERY successfully in several of the evolutions...after having only had the knife for a week prior! Of course this knife was designed by Southnarc.
It extremely important IMO, to find a knife which has an identical trainer to practice with. Just like you would never buy a gun and not train with it, one should be able to train with your blade.
Personally, I have carried a spyderco endura folded and brought my identical trainer to the class...it sucked. I got it out maybe once or twice, but it's usefulness was greatly diminished. Personally, I will be picking up a P'kal + trainer.
Hope this helps.
Steve,
You and I are in the same position. I just finished up with Shivworks ECQC and it opened my eyes to quite a few things regarding blades and their applications. First off, fixed blades carried at about 10 to 11:00 rule the day. Folders suck to try to deploy from a pocket with two 220lb dudes on top of you, while simultaneously trying not to get shot. MI laws unfortunately leave us with little choice however (as already stated). My initial solution was the same as already mentioned, just carry a folder in fixed position. For this, I am looking heavily at the Benchmade 530. Thin, light, and concealable.
The other option which would work very well in either a folded or fixed position is the Spydie P'kal. One of the students had the matching knife and trainer and used if VERY successfully in several of the evolutions...after having only had the knife for a week prior! Of course this knife was designed by Southnarc.
It extremely important IMO, to find a knife which has an identical trainer to practice with. Just like you would never buy a gun and not train with it, one should be able to train with your blade.
Personally, I have carried a spyderco endura folded and brought my identical trainer to the class...it sucked. I got it out maybe once or twice, but it's usefulness was greatly diminished. Personally, I will be picking up a P'kal + trainer.
Hope this helps.
What about the Endura sucked? How was the P'Kal better? From what I have read on the P'Kal it requires a different style of use than per se an Endrua.
QUOTE: "As a self-defense platform, Pikal is carried out holding a knife in reverse grip with the sharpened edge facing inward toward the user. Pikal’s objective is not flowing drills with your opponent but rapidly and effectively striking and surprising. "
Curious as to how that worked better and more specifically why. Thanks!
What about the Endura sucked? How was the P'Kal better? From what I have read on the P'Kal it requires a different style of use than per se an Endrua.
QUOTE: "As a self-defense platform, Pikal is carried out holding a knife in reverse grip with the sharpened edge facing inward toward the user. Pikal’s objective is not flowing drills with your opponent but rapidly and effectively striking and surprising. "
Curious as to how that worked better and more specifically why. Thanks!
The endura is great as a utility knife. However, I personally found it to be difficult to employ under stress (i.e. two large gentlemen beating the hell out of you while trying to wrestle a G17T out of your hands). The P'kal's usefullnes comes from two main things IMO:
The wave design which is much easier to employ under stress (note they also make a waved endura which I do not own).
The second thing is the design itself. It is made to employ when you are already in the struggle. It is designed for a reverse grip and made to hook and "sew" your opponent. ECQC is all about limb control and this is a huge advantage.
The P'kal is not made for a knife standoff, but once you are already in it, it is golden. The endura is a great knife for what it is, but it performed marginally at best for the situation I was in.
Having said all of this, a small fixed blade ruled over ANY folder...but as Steve point out we cannot carry them in MI...
Hopefully this answers your question.
The endura is great as a utility knife. However, I personally found it to be difficult to employ under stress (i.e. two large gentlemen beating the hell out of you while trying to wrestle a G17T out of your hands). The P'kal's usefullnes comes from two main things IMO:
The wave design which is much easier to employ under stress (note they also make a waved endura which I do not own).
The second thing is the design itself. It is made to employ when you are already in the struggle. It is designed for a reverse grip and made to hook and "sew" your opponent. ECQC is all about limb control and this is a huge advantage.
The P'kal is not made for a knife standoff, but once you are already in it, it is golden. The endura is a great knife for what it is, but it performed marginally at best for the situation I was in.
Having said all of this, a small fixed blade ruled over ANY folder...but as Steve point out we cannot carry them in MI...
Hopefully this answers your question.
Thanks that did help and was what I was looking for. You still sold on the P'kal vs the Endura Wave? Any good videos out there on the P'kal a guy could watch to see what you are referring to?
Thanks!
I carry both the Spyderco Delica (w/ Wave opener) and a Spyderco Native. The Native wins hands down for comfort and grip. Thanks to eBay, I won't cry if I lose it.
I Googled P'Kal knife fighting.... Dang.. LOTs to learn about using a knife. A guy can make this pretty complicated fast. All I want is to be able to use mine when / if the need were ever to arise. From what I can tell the style you use dictates the knife you use. Correct?
I feel the need for another class in my future...
mkmckinley
07-05-12, 21:16
Spyderco Sage 2. Outstanding quality for any knife, even more so considering the price. The blade profile, thumbhole, and locking mech lend themselves toward defensive use at least as much as a 3" folder is capable of. Mine has held up. Ery well to EDC and it's very light and slim in the pocket.
jasonhgross
07-06-12, 09:40
I have the same restrictions in the DC area (where I work) as the OP. I have found that the Spyderco Delica meets my needs. Simple, not offensive, holds an edge, and an outstanding price. The smaller H1 based salt serise is actually my current favorite of this type. I have tried other much more expensive options, but kept comming back to the Delica. It cuts better in a defensive scenario (based on my experience training with Greg Hamilton and John Holschen with the knife) than anything else. BTW, the bump on the Delica style is a huge bennefit over the non or reduced bump of the native and other seriese, IF you know how to do draw cuts properly (simple) in a defensive scenario (also surprisingly simple). I have had some of the aforementioned blades including but not limited to the CQC14, Native, P'kal ect. None worked as well as the delica style. Minimal training, maximum result. Keep it simple.
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