View Full Version : SIG .45 ACPs issued to US Army
Raven Armament
06-26-12, 09:50
I was at my day job yesterday and the new guy was talking to someone else about his time in the Army being deployed overseas and some of the weapons. Timeframe would be in the last decade, as this individual is maybe 30yo at the oldest (and that's pushing it).
He said the Army issued him a SIG .45 ACP and no one carried the M9. Also claimed the Corps issued Glock 17s and that's when my radar went off, as well as another coworker who was in the Marines. I left it alone, rather than call him out at break time.
I don't know his MOS, but from his demeanor, he doesn't seem like the SF type or anything similar (I've known a few and they just have a different demeanor about them), but I don't like judging someone because you never know.
So do any of you current or former soldiers know of any part of the Army issuing SIG pistols at all, let alone .45 ACP? I know the SIG 226 is or was in the arsenal of the Navy.
I've been wrong before but IMO it's not a good sign about "the new guy".
I occassionally worked around a pretty outlandish sales exec who within minutes of meeting you told you he was Marine Force Recon in Vietnam. We talked guns some and he lavished the praise on his favorite, a Sig P226.
Once out in a group, over beers he got into dueling war stories with another Navy vet; a submariner. They went toe to toe, starting a story to top the others before each could finish their last.
Then the sales exec jumped the shark. "And this VC shot me in the lung with an AK47 and I killed him with my Sig! And I still have that pistol today." Then I startled, and asked "You mean that Sig P226 you are so in love with?" "Yep, that's the one, it saved my ass."
I STFU. It didn't matter, I didn't have to be the one. But check the date the SigP226 was frakking invented. Or did the Force Recon use them in the late stages of Vietnam? :confused:
Stuff like that happens.
I retired from the Army in 2001 but then worked as a defense contractor (training support stuff) for another five years, so my info is 2006 and earlier.
I know that the Army and others services issue/issued a version of the 9mm SIG 228, with the military designation M11. It was originally intended IIRC as a weapon for aircrew and others needing a pistol more compact than the M9.
I have no knowledge of any SIG .45 pistol being issued by any DoD element, but I wouldn't say definitively that it hasn't happened.
My guess is the most likely explanation is that your source was telling "war stories".
An old joke in the Army goes something like this: What's the difference between a fairy tale and a war story? A fairy tale starts with "Once upon a time..."; a war story starts with "There I was; this is no sh#t".
KalashniKEV
06-26-12, 11:17
I STFU. It didn't matter, I didn't have to be the one.
That's always best.
I just heard an "SF Nam Vet" story-
"I carried a captured AK-47 because the M16 was such a POS when it was fielded."
I nodded my head... but then he had to add:
"I ran it with M14 bullets- because the Russians designed it that way! Then, eventually, you couldn't get M14 bullets anymore, so I HAD to switch!!!"
Rock on, OG...
;)
When I was on active duty in the mid 80s, I had a buddy who did a rotation as a general's driver/chogey boy at SOCOM HQ. They issued him a P7 of all things.
Okie John
mrosamilia
06-26-12, 11:54
Chris Kyle states that he carried one during his time in Iraq in his book American Sniper.
Raven Armament
06-26-12, 12:33
A SIG as in the M11 or as in a SIG .45 ACP? IIRC he was a SEAL so the M11 would make sense. I could see specialized units having more of a choice, but my coworker made it seem like he was a GI infantry private.
mrosamilia
06-26-12, 12:52
P-220 45 ACP. He states that after his TRP was hit by a frag "saving his leg" e switched to the P-220.
P-220 45 ACP. He states that after his TRP was hit by a frag "saving his leg" e switched to the P-220.
He made it pretty clear those were both his personally owned pistols too IIRC.
P-220 45 ACP. He states that after his TRP was hit by a frag "saving his leg" e switched to the P-220.
Wow! I think even I would go out and buy another 1911 after that!
I'm a second generation office rat, so I have no real world combat/street experience, but even I know BS when I see it. But it's not worth it to me to call it. I just nod my head and go on about my day.
mrosamilia
06-26-12, 15:04
He made it pretty clear those were both his personally owned pistols too IIRC.
Correct, sorry if I implied otherwise.
mrosamilia
06-26-12, 15:06
Wow! I think even I would go out and buy another 1911 after that!
I'm a second generation office rat, so I have no real world combat/street experience, but even I know BS when I see it. But it's not worth it to me to call it. I just nod my head and go on about my day.
I was just quoting the book????
....a book I haven't read! LOL.
westcoastfrog
06-26-12, 15:40
never seen anybody (sof or conventional) "issued" a sig p220.
Correct, sorry if I implied otherwise.
You didn't imply otherwise; I was just adding that emphasis for the OP.
Chris Kyle was very .45 centric. ;) I'm frequently reminded of the stories told by a recently retired Army Infantry 1SG with a lot of time training with the high speed guys and combat tours etc - how it was easy to find general agreement among these shooters that the M4 or some near variant was a fine long gun. Not much argument. But they could go on for days debating the better pistol. Funny. In a good way.
bodyarmorguy
06-26-12, 18:53
That's always best.
I just heard an "SF Nam Vet" story-
"I carried a captured AK-47 because the M16 was such a POS when it was fielded."
I nodded my head... but then he had to add:
"I ran it with M14 bullets- because the Russians designed it that way! Then, eventually, you couldn't get M14 bullets anymore, so I HAD to switch!!!"
Rock on, OG...
;)
Yeah, I work with a former Marine who was telling me that one of the big advantages of the AK47 was that it was designed so that it would run with our ammo as well as their own. "Huh?" was my response.
I called a Guy out when he claimed to be a Tanker after I called him on his BS he finally admitted he was a Motor Pool mechanic that was around them but never was a Kilo :laugh: hell i didn,t Finish My MOS training By 2 weeks Due to a Injury but Have been in and around Tanks In my Unit enough Know BS when I heard it
I know a few who carried odd ball sidearms while over there. A good friend of mine at one point carried a Sig P226 (Has the pictures of him with it in a holster too) for a little while, much preferred it to the M9, but, he was PSD for a two star and it was never what was issued to him, still haven't a clue how he got it, but then again considering they found an MP5 behind a couch who the hell knows. Being PSD they had all kinds of guns anyway from MP5s, shotguns, M4s, ect. Same with one guy who had a Glock 17 while in Iraq, had it carried it, but the only reason he had it was because he took it off an Iraqi. So I can believe a to a certain extend that some guys could have some odd ball sidearms, that said, for every guy I know who carried an odd ball sidearm or gun overseas I have heard a hundred bullshit stories, but that is my two cents to the discussion.
I was under the impression the last 45 ever issued mainstay was the 1911.
I love the green beret marine recon type of guys. The ones who just know enough to bs the folks at church but no where close to fool the real guys.
You can kid the fans but you cant kid the players.
SIG P series pistols didn't exist at the time of the vietnam war.
ICANHITHIMMAN
06-26-12, 21:09
I saw H&K, glock, beretta, 1911s, sig 228 and 226 but never a 220.
Raven Armament
06-26-12, 23:40
Got some more info. He was in for 8 years and said he handled paperwork for the EOD. Whatever that is? I'll have to google it. I've heard/seen that before but don't know what it stands for.
Raven Armament
06-26-12, 23:46
But it's not worth it to me to call it. I just nod my head and go on about my day.
That's my position most of the time too. If I'm asked about something, I'll educate, but try not to be a dick about stuff unless they are really asking for it.
beschatten
06-27-12, 00:04
Saw some leaked contracts floating around the internet, but then again it could also be photoshop--apparently the Delta Force bought a fair sum of 1911's from SA.
My dad was 101st Airborne, he was issued a 1911, then in the 80's the Beretta's came along. Retired in 96. Said for the most part, you were stuck with what you were given. He did get to use H&K on a few missions but that's about it on his part. Very rarely would they make an exception to this. Some fellow marines I know said they carried P226's for certain missions with those "nasty bullets" and a bunch of navy guys I know also say they are using the Beretta's.
Honestly, I would call him out for it. If he ever decides to get a job requiring any form of security clearance, this kind of shit comes up and will prevent that. Pretending that you were in the military? F*cking insulting, a crime, and will most definitely shaft you when you need that clearance.
Raven Armament
06-27-12, 00:33
He's been verified as a veteran from HR. My day job entails sensitive ITAR stuff so hiring is pretty tight. Anyone putting military on their resume is vetted. This isn't about him serving or not, it's about him stating certain weapons are issued to standard units when they are not.
Oh, and his bullets were kevlar coated so they were armor piercing too. I did this: :no: and then left the break room after that one. Oh, boy.
beschatten
06-27-12, 02:02
lol.
Maybe he just didn't know the difference between 9mm and 45acp, and a 226 and a 220
I wish I'd been given a Sig. I just got the regular M9 to carry (and, yes, I'm Navy!)
bodyarmorguy
06-27-12, 05:19
Oh, and his bullets were kevlar coated so they were armor piercing too.
:suicide:
bodyarmorguy
06-27-12, 05:21
Got some more info. He was in for 8 years and said he handled paperwork for the EOD. Whatever that is? I'll have to google it. I've heard/seen that before but don't know what it stands for.
Explosive Ordnance Disposal
Microalign
06-27-12, 08:32
I'm not surprised. I saw some DOD guys using some old W. German P220s a few years ago. The P220 is an "okay" .45acp. It can be finicky like a 1911 in the hands of abusive enlisted personnel over the years. Especially when you start throwing dirt, and weakened mag/recoil springs into the mix.
RagweedZulu
06-27-12, 09:11
A few years back I twice arrested an old, long haired vet in town for DUI. his arms were covered with flags, POW art and other Vietnam related tats.
Unsolicited, he proceeded to tell me how he was a "Marine SEAL" in Vietnam. Choking down a guffaw, I played dumb and said I didn't know they had those. He assured me that back then there were Marine SEALs but now only the Navy had them.
The fact that he was a ground pounding Marine over there is impressive enough for me. Why do guys think they need to bling up their service?!?!
You'd be surprised at how many wannabes in my line of work claim they are/were SWAT, undercover, secret gang unit or some other BS. I most respect the guy who simply worked the streets his entire career putting shitbags away. No need for the SuperCop crap.
That's my position most of the time too. If I'm asked about something, I'll educate, but try not to be a dick about stuff unless they are really asking for it.
When I was younger I use to argue with them. I learned that got me no where fast, just pissed and at the end of the day I accomplished nothing. Oh well.
Raven Armament
06-27-12, 10:11
Explosive Ordnance Disposal
Nice. That sounds like such a fun job, but I bet in reality it's a shit sandwich.
I'm not surprised. I saw some DOD guys using some old W. German P220s a few years ago. The P220 is an "okay" .45acp. It can be finicky like a 1911 in the hands of abusive enlisted personnel over the years. Especially when you start throwing dirt, and weakened mag/recoil springs into the mix.
I thought about getting one, but I'm so accustomed to the 1911 type pistols I just stick with what is comfortable and I'm confident with.
The fact that he was a ground pounding Marine over there is impressive enough for me. Why do guys think they need to bling up their service?!?!
In my experience as just a mere civilian, I've seen two types of prior service types. Those that are loud about it, wear all sorts of "I'm a veteran" and military slogan type shirts and hats and those that never speak much of it, treat it like any other job on their resume, and just go on with life.
The former Marine at my work is like the latter. He was in the infantry, just a grunt rifleman, saw combat in Iraq, lost his hearing in both ears, broken jaw, and had his tongue sewn back on after an RPG hit a wall he was behind. That last sentence is literally the only information he gave about his time in service. This is what I did, this is where I was, I got hurt, now I'm out.
The former Army soldier starts blabbering about his time in service the very first day on the job to people that don't care to be bombarded without solicitation. That's all he talks about and wants everyone to know he was in the Army. Day 2 of his employment and people on the shift already hate him. I'm trying to keep an open mind.
brickboy240
06-27-12, 12:29
The people that saw real shit while in active duty....THEY don't talk about it much or advertise their service. That has been my experience.
My uncle, whom served in the Army during the 60s but never saw any time in country talks about Army life quite a bit.
My Dad, whom saw combat as a Marine while there in 1964, still won't tell me much about his experience.
Same for my great uncle, a navigator and photographer on a B-24 in Italy in 1943. Won't say much about what he saw....but I have seen enough of the photos he took there to know he saw some truly awful things. He actually thinks his service in the Italy campaign was no big deal and totally blows it off!
My grandfather's neighbor served in Patton's tank unit in the Battle of the Bulge but unless you entered his house and saw his plaque on the wall....you'd never know it. The guy is literally a walking history book but only talks about his experiences to those he knows very well. Even then...its a short talk.
Yep, in my experiences, those that really saw action rarely advertise or talk about what they did. The loud people are either lying about their experiences or served but never saw real combat or sticky situations at all.
- brickboy240
I was Navy and used both, the M9 and M11. In conventional units they use the M9 and within the realm of NAVSPECWAR they have the M11 (P226 and P228 carry the designation of M11). I believe Navy EOD uses the M11 as well and faintly remember the SeaBee Underwater Construction bubbas carrying the M11 as well.
I talked to a Sig rep about the M11 and it's use in government and mil. The Army uses the M11 for tankers, aircrew and various others. As for the Marines, he didn't say they had contracts for them, I didn't ask.
Don't assume that all the Navy uses the Sig. Most sailors don't. I was lucky enough to carry the M11 (in 228 form) in the desert. Not that I ever had to use it but I am very familiar with it as I own one. My opinion but I think it is superior to the M9.
Tier 1 may be able to bring a P220 into theater, or whatever the hell else they buy out of their own pocket or OPTAR funds, but anyone else it's pretty much what you've heard of/seen before; Glock, M11, M9, HK.
Awesome1228
06-27-12, 13:03
The people that saw real shit while in active duty....THEY don't talk about it much or advertise their service. That has been my experience.
My uncle, whom served in the Army during the 60s but never saw any time in country talks about Army life quite a bit.
My Dad, whom saw combat as a Marine while there in 1964, still won't tell me much about his experience.
Same for my great uncle, a navigator and photographer on a B-24 in Italy in 1943. Won't say much about what he saw....but I have seen enough of the photos he took there to know he saw some truly awful things. He actually thinks his service in the Italy campaign was no big deal and totally blows it off!
My grandfather's neighbor served in Patton's tank unit in the Battle of the Bulge but unless you entered his house and saw his plaque on the wall....you'd never know it. The guy is literally a walking history book but only talks about his experiences to those he knows very well. Even then...its a short talk.
Yep, in my experiences, those that really saw action rarely advertise or talk about what they did. The loud people are either lying about their experiences or served but never saw real combat or sticky situations at all.
- brickboy240
This has mostly been my experience as well. My father was in the Navy and spent a couple tours in Viet Nam, but only really talked about it when I asked, and then it wasn't in much detail until I was nearing 30. My grandfather drove an ambulance in France in WWII, and I didn't even know he was in the military until I read it in his obit after he passed away. His brother was a pilot, saw service in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam, and the only thing he ever did was tell what us kind of airplane was flying overhead, when I could barely even see it.
Then there's the guy at the counter at Denny's with a cup of coffee in his hand telling you all about the 2 dozen VC he killed with a flamethrower...
We were issued Sig P226's in 9mm. This is late 1989.
Never heard of it, but strange things have happened. While we were in OEF 2003-04 we had either the BDE Commander or the CG show up on our FOB carring what looked like USP's. Seems like someone told me they were .45's. I recall being a little like WTF over it.
All the squirrels we worked with in civies were carriing M-9s though. Not even sure who they were, just that we were supposed to go after some HVT's with them, but the missions always got scrubbed at the last minute.:mad:
Psalms144.1
06-27-12, 16:27
Army conventional units issue M9s; CID and some other specialties get M11s (P228s).
USAF issues the M11 to AFOSI and some other specialty units; everyone else gets M9s.
The Navy issues everyone an M9. NCIS agents get their choice of a .40 S&W P229R or P239 - both with the DAK trigger.
The USMC conventional units are still issuing M9s; though there is a lot of wishing to convert back to the 1911 in .45 for them...
In the SOF world, there's some more leniency, but still, the M9 is the weapon in MOST holsters. Army SF is still issuing the M9 to everyone in non-special-mission-units; though there are quite a few G19s in circulation as well. Army SMUs use G19s, G22s, 1911s, and a couple of other odd bits thrown in.
NSW issues the P226 as its primary sidearm, with the HK45CT recently being added as an alternative, though I don't know the specific basis of issue for them. Navy SMUs use the P226, P239, and the HK45CT.
AFSOC issues the M9 to most of its members, though some guys attached to SMUs and other deployed TFs will get issued a weapon matching the basic sidearm of the guys they're deploying with.
MARSOC is the only place that I know of where the .45 ACP is the predominant caliber - in their nicely-tuned 1911s. Not to say I haven't seen M9s in MARSOC holsters in my travels, but, last I heard, their INTENT was to get a 1911 into every operator's holster.
So, bottom line, I don't know of ANYONE in DOD who is "issued" a P220. Not saying there are NONE of them in the inventory, but I'm unaware of any unit ISSUING them.
Regards,
Kevin
When I was younger I use to argue with them. I learned that got me no where fast, just pissed and at the end of the day I accomplished nothing. Oh well.
I used to argue with those guys too. Seldom do you win. In the early eighties, I worked with one old blow hard that claimed to have been a Vietnam vet. He was S.O. and I was P.D. Not only did he insist that the AK was designed to fire both 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 51, but he was also issued one of the first M16s, which were marked as being made by Mattel. We almost came to blows more than once over that argument. Looking back, it just was not worth it.
Nice. That sounds like such a fun job, but I bet in reality it's a shit sandwich.
Rent The Hurt Locker. It's fictional, and much of the super ninja stuff is way fictional. But you can get an idea of the flavor of the shit sandwich.
Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2
First, I didn't read through the whole thread so i apologize if this has been mentioned.
When I was deployed to Iraq the only people I saw with a sidearm other than our M9s were the Iraqis (Glocks mostly), SF (a wide range from M9s, HKs, Sigs, Glocks and at least one 1911) and I saw some CI (counter-intel) team guys with Sigs. I don't remember exactly but I think they carried the P228/M11
Raven Armament
06-27-12, 23:56
My grandfather's neighbor served in Patton's tank unit in the Battle of the Bulge but unless you entered his house and saw his plaque on the wall....you'd never know it. The guy is literally a walking history book but only talks about his experiences to those he knows very well. Even then...its a short talk.
Sounds like my grandfather. Served in WWI and WWII as a machine gunner in the 42nd Rainbow Division. Born in 1895, died in 1994 7 months shy of being 100. Never said much throughout his life, but my mother told me my father interviewed him about his war experiences and has like around 30 hours of cassette tapes recorded. I keep forgetting to ask my father if I can listen to them. My grandfather chased Pancho Villa around TX and retired from the Army after WWII. The stuff that man has seen!
Rent The Hurt Locker. It's fictional, and much of the super ninja stuff is way fictional. But you can get an idea of the flavor of the shit sandwich.
I saw the trailers for it and it's on the list to rent (I don't watch many movies). Do you know if it's on Netflix yet? Wife and I just got it for the Wii and it's pretty nice.
Rent The Hurt Locker. It's fictional, and much of the super ninja stuff is way fictional. But you can get an idea of the flavor of the shit sandwich.
Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2
I know several Army EOD Soldiers with multiple deployments and their take on that movie is it's complete crap from an accuracy standpoint. It's not a bad war movie and it does convey the hardships and dangers of warfare, but that's it.
As to being 'issued' a P220? Not from any Army unit I've ever heard of. I do know from first hand info that troops in Iraq have been issued G17's, but they came from the Iraqi side of the house. Some of the Iraqi units our MP's trained wanted to trade their Glocks for our M9's because they thought that since we use it, it must be the best. :sarcastic: I also know troops who were issued 1911's once they were in country, but they had to turn them in to clear on the way out.
On a side note I just love the our ammo vs their ammo statements. I've had more vets than I can count guarantee me that the AK47 was designed to fire our 5.56x45 round. I know it's actually possible to do so, but the results aren't pretty. When you remind them that the 7.62x39 was designed in the mid 1940's, and the 5.56x45 didn't show up until the early 1960's, they just get that :blink: look on their faces.
There is some truth to being able to fire our mortar and other light artillery ammunition through Soviet weapons, but that's a whole 'nuther issue in itself.
Yeah I know a guy in the Army National Guard that is constantly telling these BS stories. He claims that he was shot with both 9mm and 5.56 multiple times during BCT. Supposedly they shot him while wearing his plates so that he will have experienced it, yadda yadda yadda.
Yeah I know a guy in the Army National Guard that is constantly telling these BS stories. He claims that he was shot with both 9mm and 5.56 multiple times during BCT. Supposedly they shot him while wearing his plates so that he will have experienced it, yadda yadda yadda.
what a Tard really ??? just kick his ass for me no way in hell that happened what was his MOS ?I bet a in the rear with the gear guy
the Military is not going to shoot Plates them frakers are high dollar LOL:help: BS Alert
The people that saw real shit while in active duty....THEY don't talk about it much or advertise their service. That has been my experience.
My uncle, whom served in the Army during the 60s but never saw any time in country talks about Army life quite a bit.
My Dad, whom saw combat as a Marine while there in 1964, still won't tell me much about his experience.
Same for my great uncle, a navigator and photographer on a B-24 in Italy in 1943. Won't say much about what he saw....but I have seen enough of the photos he took there to know he saw some truly awful things. He actually thinks his service in the Italy campaign was no big deal and totally blows it off!
My grandfather's neighbor served in Patton's tank unit in the Battle of the Bulge but unless you entered his house and saw his plaque on the wall....you'd never know it. The guy is literally a walking history book but only talks about his experiences to those he knows very well. Even then...its a short talk.
Yep, in my experiences, those that really saw action rarely advertise or talk about what they did. The loud people are either lying about their experiences or served but never saw real combat or sticky situations at all.
- brickboy240
That's what makes me wonder about Dad. He doesn't talk much about it. He'll tell you where he came in country (under fire) and show you on the map where he went. Then He tells a story about how the Fire base took fire a few nights in a row and they always chased them back into the bush. Then one night they ran them too far and was over the line. He likes to say there aren't any signs that say "Hello and Welcome to Cambodia".
And he carried the rocket launcher thats like a single shot shotgun. He loved that thing.
To add to this.
Lil brother did time in 1st Force. Had a pic of him holding a 1911 w/tan grips. He told me it was a Kimber. I have searched my laptop and only thing I have is before missions pics of his team and a pic of him and his buddy before mission.
He doesn't talk much about his time with the 1/4 or Force. He's mentioned a few things. Said he misses HALOs and all the cool shooting packages he went to and he's even talked about Fallujah but it was limited.
My uncle did Vietnam time w/SF. He never talked about it. He wouldn't visit the Wall and the only thing he told me about it was that he "was there before it was Vietnam and was there when it was over."
After he passed away, I received a plaque he had gotten while with Project Delta and some pics/mementos from his time in.
Traveshamockery
06-30-12, 09:25
Yeah, I work with a former Marine who was telling me that one of the big advantages of the AK47 was that it was designed so that it would run with our ammo as well as their own. "Huh?" was my response.
I actually had a Russian military vet tell me the same thing. Without going into detail, it's clear to me that he did indeed serve in their armed forces. He was referring to 5.45x39 and 5.56x45, btw.
I've never heard of a Sig 220 being issued to any particular unit outside of the Special Ops types, who get more latitude on weaponry. One co-worker of mine just returned from a tour in Afghanistan as a PSD for the brigade commander, and he was indeed trained in "non-standard" weapons like the MP-5 and the shotgun. But the pistol he carried was a Beretta, like everyone else.
Another former co-worker of mine, who was a Ranger who jumped into Panama in '89 mentioned he carried a personally owned Sig 220 into combat. The pistol was subsequently confiscated by US Customs when he came back as a "war trophy"! He never saw the pistol again.
what a Tard really ??? just kick his ass for me no way in hell that happened what was his MOS ?I bet a in the rear with the gear guy
the Military is not going to shoot Plates them frakers are high dollar LOL:help: BS Alert
Yeah. Same guy who also told me that they play Russian Roulette in the armory and that guys in his unit get shot this way all the time and then come right back. He's in infantry as an 11B or 11C. Never been deployed. He also tried to tell me that the standard issue Colt is a 1/9 twist and all kinds of other nonsense. Why are so many "soldiers" pathological liars and just plain idiots? The ones that tell stories are always the liars. The ones that don't talk about it are the ones that actually did experience some real shit and may know a thing or two.
DiabhailGadhar
07-01-12, 14:48
12.5 Years of Marine Corps...NOT ONE TIME IN THE 7+ ARMORIES I'VE BEEN IN ENCOMPASSING PROBABLY 40-50 UNITS TOTAL, NOT ONE TIME HAVE I SEEN A SIG! Let alone P220's, Bushmasters, RRA, Rail Guns or other BS people ramble on about..shit I almost went into shock when I saw the RCO's..and then Grip Pods...lol...people are full of it..
it's FN's, Beretta's and Colts...pretty much in that order, used to be mostly colts.
12.5 Years of Marine Corps...NOT ONE TIME IN THE 7+ ARMORIES I'VE BEEN IN ENCOMPASSING PROBABLY 40-50 UNITS TOTAL, NOT ONE TIME HAVE I SEEN A SIG! Let alone P220's, Bushmasters, RRA, Rail Guns or other BS people ramble on about..shit I almost went into shock when I saw the RCO's..and then Grip Pods...lol...people are full of it..
it's FN's, Beretta's and Colts...pretty much in that order, used to be mostly colts.
The only SIGs in Marine Corps armories are M11s and those you only really find in PMOs and a few other security related functions. You will not find them in any operational unit beyond the CID agent(s) assigned to MEF.
In total there are only like 250 in the Marine Corps
The most surprising and shocking thing in this whole thread is that Raven Armament has time for a "day job".
DiabhailGadhar
07-01-12, 17:19
The only SIGs in Marine Corps armories are M11s and those you only really find in PMOs and a few other security related functions. You will not find them in any operational unit beyond the CID agent(s) assigned to MEF.
In total there are only like 250 in the Marine Corps
If I remember correctly even those guys are swapping out..I just went to Sgt's Course with one of their guys..he did mention it..but that's a pretty specialized billet.
If I remember correctly even those guys are swapping out..I just went to Sgt's Course with one of their guys..he did mention it..but that's a pretty specialized billet.
Their program manager just submitted an UNNS for new pistols, her preference was for Glock 19s but said she was would settle for new M11s.
You are correct though, most of the M11s were pulled and disbo'd because it was at the end of the pistols predicted life cycle. There are still some guns left, like we have a cabinet full of them at the office.
DiabhailGadhar
07-02-12, 01:24
Their program manager just submitted an UNNS for new pistols, her preference was for Glock 19s but said she was would settle for new M11s.
You are correct though, most of the M11s were pulled and disbo'd because it was at the end of the pistols predicted life cycle. There are still some guns left, like we have a cabinet full of them at the office.
I'll take one...I have a p220 and a 229 that could use the company.
I know I know...Leavenworth...:D
I can't really blame her though I'm actually considering hoppin on the Glock band wagon myself...itll be a toss up between the 229 and a g17/22 which escorts my Family around.
Not sure if this forum exercises good OPSEC practices, but this thread seems to push it a bit. FWIW...
Reagans Rascals
07-07-12, 05:30
You should keep a small e-tool or shovel in the corner of your office.... just for the sake of handing it to him when the shit starts flowing....
D.S. Brown
07-07-12, 05:53
Sounds like my grandfather. Served in WWI and WWII as a machine gunner in the 42nd Rainbow Division. Born in 1895, died in 1994 7 months shy of being 100. Never said much throughout his life, but my mother told me my father interviewed him about his war experiences and has like around 30 hours of cassette tapes recorded. I keep forgetting to ask my father if I can listen to them. My grandfather chased Pancho Villa around TX and retired from the Army after WWII. The stuff that man has seen!
Sir I have to tell you you're not the only one who would love to listen to those tapes, especially if they were converted into a CD, then available to download on iTunes. Okay only sort of kidding about the last part.:p
My maternal grandfather served in the Navy during WW 2. He was an electrician on a ship tender. When queried about what he did he would say "I put batteries in flashlights," and that's all he would say. His biggest and only story is being a mile from the USS Missouri and watching through big binoculars and seeing the surrender documents signed.
I had an uncle that was in the Army in the late 60's. He said he was with the 82nd at Ft. Bragg. His only story was getting to Oakland Army Depot, and for whatever reason his orders got changed from going to Vietnam, and being sent to Alaska instead. Honestly don't know how true this story is, but I never questioned him beyond being in the Army.
Well to tie this in with the origin of the thread. I was in the Army from '86 - '90. I'm pretty sure that there is a strong possibility that the gray painted Remington Rand 1911's in the arms rooms of the two units I served in, could possibly have been used by me, my uncle, and maybe even by my grandfather during our respective years of service.
Best,
Dave
DiabhailGadhar
07-07-12, 08:46
Not sure if this forum exercises good OPSEC practices, but this thread seems to push it a bit. FWIW...
Lol...yeah I'm sure that operational security has been breached here somewhere...what with majority of the information coming from common knowledge found on wikipedia and all..
Raven Armament
07-07-12, 13:17
The most surprising and shocking thing in this whole thread is that Raven Armament has time for a "day job".
Why is that "surprising and shocking"?:confused:
Why is that "surprising and shocking"?:confused:
Why with all of those orders you're filling, I'd think you'd have no time for rest, let alone a 9-5 gig!
I've worked for almost two years in the cubicle next to a guy who was Army LRS/Ranger for for two rotations in Afghanistan and one in Iraq with a few side trips to Africa, etc.
He speaks proudly of his training and how much he loves the Army. But, he doesn't talk much about his actual combat experiences except to say he was there from "the beginning" and saw "a lot".
Like a lot of guys here, he will answer if I ask a specific question and usually only to clarify a falsehood or misinterpretation. I asked once when he entered Afghanistan and he replied "The newspapers say the invasion started on October 7, 2001"...end of discussion.
The only time he has really opened up was when I showed him an in-country picture of my uncle who was a LRRP in Vietnam, etc. He spoke with a deep, deep, respect for those guys("heroes") and how they were the "real deal" and had to create(the hard way) all the things he was taught.
Anyway, he has a great line for the "Ranger Ricks" who brag about what they supposedly did or know....
"Those who can....do. Those who can't....talk about it"
Failure2Stop
07-07-12, 22:15
Why with all of those orders you're filling, I'd think you'd have no time for rest, let alone a 9-5 gig!
I think you've confused Raven Armament with Raven Concealment
I think you've confused Raven Armament with Raven Concealment
See what happens when I don't get coffee!
I have to chime in to agree with the folks who DON'T tell stories. My grandfather was in the thick of it in Korea and would never say anything about it other than that he was there. When he passed away we uncovered a footlocker with his old military stuff in it which included a purple heart no one knew about. Also in this locker is my favorite picture of him. He was infantry, and had a brother in artillery and another who was a medic. They all ended up at the same FOB at the same time and are in the picture with their arms around each others shoulders, ages 18, 19, and 20.
Magic_Salad0892
07-08-12, 00:50
I have to chime in to agree with the folks who DON'T tell stories. My grandfather was in the thick of it in Korea and would never say anything about it other than that he was there. When he passed away we uncovered a footlocker with his old military stuff in it which included a purple heart no one knew about. Also in this locker is my favorite picture of him. He was infantry, and had a brother in artillery and another who was a medic. They all ended up at the same FOB at the same time and are in the picture with their arms around each others shoulders, ages 18, 19, and 20.
That's badass, man. Any way you could post a scan of that or something?
Old war pics are great. :)
Not trying to bring back on-topic the best "derail" ever......
But during OEF VIII, we were slated to T&E some Taurus .45's (The 24/7, I believe)
Holsters showed up, .45 Ball showed up (Ammo cans full) and then the pistols never made it. Apparently there was some catastrophic malfunction with the slide cracking or something that prevented this from happening.
Now looking back at it, even though I was there, MY story sounds like complete BS.
I'm 103% sure the original story is BS as well.
Not sure if this forum exercises good OPSEC practices, but this thread seems to push it a bit. FWIW...
OPSEC and PERSEC are practiced here. I've seen nothing in this thread that I haven't seen from open sources at one point or another.
Littlelebowski
07-08-12, 14:04
Not sure if this forum exercises good OPSEC practices, but this thread seems to push it a bit. FWIW...
Feel free to lecture us.
Feel free to lecture us.
+1 When LAV posts openly about G22's I think we can safely conclude that cat is long out of the bag. Not that the enemy would "what if" a 9mm vs .40 vs .45 strategy. ;)
charmcitycop
07-08-12, 17:17
.......
Lol...yeah I'm sure that operational security has been breached here somewhere...what with majority of the information coming from common knowledge found on wikipedia and all..
Just sayin...
Just sayin...
Cite a single example of an OP-Sec violation in this thread.
Really? You don't see weapon use and capability as an OPSEC issue? Regardless of whether or not it's on Wiki. I'm not here to start a pissing match. If you want to talk about it further then shoot me a PM
Really? You don't see weapon use and capability as an OPSEC issue? Regardless of whether or not it's on Wiki. I'm not here to start a pissing match. If you want to talk about it further then shoot me a PM
No, I don't and I don't feel the slightest desire to engage in a conversation with you via PM either.
goodoleboy
07-09-12, 20:53
I got out of the Army in 2000. I never remember seeing anybody carry anything but an M9 as a sidearm. My best friend in the Army dropped by the house a few weeks ago (he's still in the Army) and was telling me on his most recent deployment (Pakistan), he was issued a Glock as his secondary weapon.
No, I don't and I don't feel the slightest desire to engage in a conversation with you via PM either.
Ok hardass.
Littlelebowski
07-09-12, 21:02
Really? You don't see weapon use and capability as an OPSEC issue? Regardless of whether or not it's on Wiki. I'm not here to start a pissing match. If you want to talk about it further then shoot me a PM
If they know our sidearm capabilities then the terrorists have won!
My buddy worked in the armory on his second tour, and I guess they had some SF type guys coming and going, and he said they had all sorts of weird shit in the armory. He said some of the high speed guys regularly went out with Glocks and even some old 1911's.
DeltaSierra
07-10-12, 01:51
If they know our sidearm capabilities then the terrorists have won!
Well, in that case, I guess the terrorists won...a long time ago...
:blink:
Magic_Salad0892
07-10-12, 06:07
... Liberals?
Lone_Ranger
07-10-12, 09:05
I know that the Army and others services issue/issued a version of the 9mm SIG 228, with the military designation M11. It was originally intended IIRC as a weapon for aircrew and others needing a pistol more compact than the M9.
DITTO!
Army CID, USAF OSI, & NCIS, use the P228/229. SEALs have been known to use the P226, though in 9mm, I believe.
shootist1970
07-15-12, 13:54
The Army has Sig's callked M-11's not sure what MOS's in regular branch get issued them, Navy Seals adopted the Sig 226 after the subgun ammo they fired was causing slide failures on their M-9 Berettas. I think the M-11 is also standard issue for Army C.I.D. investigators.
Really? You don't see weapon use and capability as an OPSEC issue? Regardless of whether or not it's on Wiki. I'm not here to start a pissing match. If you want to talk about it further then shoot me a PM
Are you high?
I got out of the Army in 2000. I never remember seeing anybody carry anything but an M9 as a sidearm. My best friend in the Army dropped by the house a few weeks ago (he's still in the Army) and was telling me on his most recent deployment (Pakistan), he was issued a Glock as his secondary weapon.
Heck, I second your comment. Except i got out of active duty in '93. Stayed NG until '99.
I guarantee the only sidearms in service except for select Navy guy/SEALS/NCIS/CID was the 1911 and then the M9.
Anyone claiming otherwise raises suspicion.
After 9/11, a smorgasbord of weapons became available.
We did have one guy (E6) bring his POW .357 Magnum to Somalia.
Apparently COC didn't say anything to him since he wore it to the mess hall.
He definitely got flak from everyone else.
I'm not sure if he took it back CONUS.
He's also one of "that guy" and he toted a captured AK for a few weeks. I believe his CO put a stop to that, but still carried his revolver.
Most non SF guys seen carrying Glocks, at least in the past, took them off dead insurgents. Who used to be IPs, IA, or got them from one of the aforementioned groups.
And we got those Glocks for the IA/IP.
:suicide:
Added - The idea anyone is talking about OPSEC being violated by small arms discussion is pretty out there. You're not getting inside anyone's planning cycle because you know they probably have an M9 in their chest ring, but they might have a 1911 in their thigh holster (gasp).
The capabilities of common military small arms and small arms in general are at this point old news and pretty unremarkable, and even though we want the best their capabilities between types are practically interchangeable from a planning perspective. Unless someone from some Double Delta Black Ops unit comes in here and posts pictures of his new phased plasma rifle in the 40watt range with underbarrel railgun I think we're good on the OPSEC front.
Hold on, I'm overgasped.
I'm not here to start a pissing match.
If that were the case, why did you start pissing about nonexistent OPSEC considerations, when you could have hit the Report Post button and gotten a staff member (who are all WAY more familiar with what does or does not violate OPSEC considerations...) to review it....?
^^^Rhetorical question, responses are neither required nor desired, unless you think skylining yourself MORE is in your interests.
It's a thread about pistols, not Chobham armor, radar-absorbant material or force-structure, and you're gonna have a helluva time selling anybody on the idea that the center of gravity of ANY recent or current dust-up teetered/teeters on what pistols a given uinit has on an EDL....
Let's move on, please.
I got out of the Army in 2000. I never remember seeing anybody carry anything but an M9 as a sidearm. My best friend in the Army dropped by the house a few weeks ago (he's still in the Army) and was telling me on his most recent deployment (Pakistan), he was issued a Glock as his secondary weapon.
A few of the 5th Grp guys on our COP were carrying G19s. I asked them if they were Army property or personal and they said Army. They also said there's not enough to go around, but they want more.
I know that the Army and others services issue/issued a version of the 9mm SIG 228, with the military designation M11. It was originally intended IIRC as a weapon for aircrew and others needing a pistol more compact than the M9.
As a former unit armorer in a CAB Ive never seen a M11 in a Aviation unit; only place Ive seen them was the MP station on plainclothes CID. Sig 228s were also very big with Fed LE agencies.
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