View Full Version : PPQ problems
Picked up a Walther PPQ in 9mm a few days ago as a replacement to my P99. The P99 was great and never jammed, but I traded it in because I wanted a standard light rail (which the P99 still does not provide even after 3 generations).
The PPQ fed about 100 rounds of WWB flawlessly. But then I switched over to my carry ammo--speer gold dot. Every magazine I tried (3), and every time, the gun would jam on the 3rd round by failing to go fully into battery (the rear of the slide stuck out about 1/2 inch). I could not rack the slide either. Only way to clear was to remove magazine, whack the rear of the slide to force it into battery (this could not be done with the magazine in place) and then the gun would fire the round in the chamber. Very frustrating (and a reminder why we should always test our carry ammo).
Other observations:
The single action trigger on my old P99 was better then the PPQ (lighter take-up, and let-off was crisper too). I also think the P99's reset was very slightly shorter too, but I can't swear to that.
The grip on the PPQ felt better (more form fitting, less slippery) than the P99.
My p99 was more accurate than the PPQ FOR ME, by a significant degree. Not sure if this was mechanical accuracy or ergonomics based, but I absolutely shoot the P99 better.
The PPQ has more felt recoil than my M&P, and about the same as my old P99. Manageable, but it's still there...
Of course I'm sending it in for repair, but not sure what I'll do when I get it back (I tend to have a long memory when it comes to malfunctions).
Picked up a Walther PPQ in 9mm a few days ago as a replacement to my P99. The P99 was great and never jammed, but I traded it in because I wanted a standard light rail (which the P99 still does not provide even after 3 generations).
The PPQ fed about 100 rounds of WWB flawlessly. But then I switched over to my carry ammo--speer gold dot. Every magazine I tried (3), and every time, the gun would jam on the 3rd round by failing to go fully into battery (the rear of the slide stuck out about 1/2 inch). I could not rack the slide either. Only way to clear was to remove magazine, whack the rear of the slide to force it into battery (this could not be done with the magazine in place) and then the gun would fire the round in the chamber. Very frustrating (and a reminder why we should always test our carry ammo).
Other observations:
The single action trigger on my old P99 was better then the PPQ (lighter take-up, and let-off was crisper too). I also think the P99's reset was very slightly shorter too, but I can't swear to that.
The grip on the PPQ felt better (more form fitting, less slippery) than the P99.
Interesting. I hope you keep us posted.
My p99 was more accurate than the PPQ FOR ME, by a significant degree. Not sure if this was mechanical accuracy or ergonomics based, but I absolutely shoot the P99 better.
Would you attribute this to familiarity and trigger time on the P99? Perhaps once you have more time on the PPQ this won't be the case?
The PPQ has more felt recoil than my M&P, and about the same as my old P99. Manageable, but it's still there...
I look forward to shooting a PPQ myself, so I can see what all this felt recoil/muzzle flip business is about. Having said that, the M&P is the softest shooting gun I owned.
Of course I'm sending it in for repair, but not sure what I'll do when I get it back (I tend to have a long memory when it comes to malfunctions).
With the stellar reviews the gun gets by in large, and given the success you seemed to have had with the P99.... I hope you give Walther/PPQ a second chance... at least enough to let the rest of us know how the fix went!
Alaskapopo
07-02-12, 16:42
Picked up a Walther PPQ in 9mm a few days ago as a replacement to my P99. The P99 was great and never jammed, but I traded it in because I wanted a standard light rail (which the P99 still does not provide even after 3 generations).
The PPQ fed about 100 rounds of WWB flawlessly. But then I switched over to my carry ammo--speer gold dot. Every magazine I tried (3), and every time, the gun would jam on the 3rd round by failing to go fully into battery (the rear of the slide stuck out about 1/2 inch). I could not rack the slide either. Only way to clear was to remove magazine, whack the rear of the slide to force it into battery (this could not be done with the magazine in place) and then the gun would fire the round in the chamber. Very frustrating (and a reminder why we should always test our carry ammo).
Other observations:
The single action trigger on my old P99 was better then the PPQ (lighter take-up, and let-off was crisper too). I also think the P99's reset was very slightly shorter too, but I can't swear to that.
The grip on the PPQ felt better (more form fitting, less slippery) than the P99.
My p99 was more accurate than the PPQ FOR ME, by a significant degree. Not sure if this was mechanical accuracy or ergonomics based, but I absolutely shoot the P99 better.
The PPQ has more felt recoil than my M&P, and about the same as my old P99. Manageable, but it's still there...
Of course I'm sending it in for repair, but not sure what I'll do when I get it back (I tend to have a long memory when it comes to malfunctions).
Why not try different carry ammo. Its not terrible if your gun just does not like this one bullet. I had a P99 several years back in 40SW and that gun was an absolute bear to shoot. I did not care for it at all. Of course it would have been much more pleasant in 9mm I am sure. I was not a 9mm fan back then.
Pat
I have short fingers and the grip on the PPQ was different than the P99 for me , so that might be the source of the accuracy difference (i.e., familiarity might cure it). I do note, however, that the target that came with my P99 showed a smaller group than the one that came with my PPQ--but who knows how the group was shot.
I also want to mention the gold dot ammo I was using (124 gr. +P) was about 10 years old (new old stock)--it's pretty hot ammo. I also noticed the OAL was slightly greater than the WWB. When I get the gun back I will also try my other carry round (Winchester Ranger 124 gr. +P and 127 gr. +P+) and report results.
My old P99 in 9mm never jammed, and I still have a p99 in .40 that I like and that has never jammed, so I remain a Walther fan.
I agree that the P99 in .40 is not "fun" to shoot (especially since I have the 1st generation with the hump in the trigger guard that rubs your trigger finger), but I hit well with it and have confidence in it.
I wish they made a G19 with a factory thumb safety, or an M&P in the size of a G19.
Mine loves 124+P Gold Dots
There is little doubt in my mind that the ammo is not to blame. I've fired a lot of guns in 25+ years, and I've never had one lock up as tight as this PPQ did, and be as difficult to clear. Would have been a complete disaster in a SD situation. :eek:
There is little doubt in my mind that the ammo is not to blame. I've fired a lot of guns in 25+ years, and I've never had one lock up as tight as this PPQ did, and be as difficult to clear. Would have been a complete disaster in a SD situation. :eek:
I had the same problem with my PPQ. The chamber is stepped. The OAL on my reloads works great in my M&Ps, but was too long for the PPQ. Do the drop test with your barrel and ammo and see if they are too long. I shortened the OAL and the problem went away. I didn't have any problems with Speer 124+p. My Speers are recent manufacture.
Thanks for the tip--I will try the drop test tonight. I had my M&P 9c with me at the range and it fed the Speer GDs no problem.
The weird/crazy thing was the PPQ always hanging up on the 3rd round out of the mag. I cycled the 1st round into the chamber by dropping the slide on a fully loaded mag, so the 2nd would be fed by recoil action, and then the gun would not feed the 3rd round. I have no logical explanation for this behavior, except maybe the mag bodies are too short for the GDs, and they are hanging up just enough in the mag body between recoil impulse to gum up the action (when I unloaded the 3 mags I was using the rounds did not "jump" out of the mag body--there seemed to be a little bit of nose diving going on that delayed them ejecting). Who knows.
Interesting to note that my 1st generation P99 fed the GDs no problem, but that gun used a slightly different magazine than the PPQ and the current generation P99 (my understanding is the 9mm mags are not interchangeable between 1st generation P99 and other iterations of the P99/PPQ).
In any event, I'm starting to appreciate the 9c a lot more, especially after installing the Apex kit. Not as accurate as either the P99 or the PPQ, though.
There is little doubt in my mind that the ammo is not to blame. I've fired a lot of guns in 25+ years, and I've never had one lock up as tight as this PPQ did, and be as difficult to clear. Would have been a complete disaster in a SD situation. :eek:
I had the exact same thing happen to me, but with 2 G19s. I had about 2k of that ammo and it has ran flawlessly through a couple of CZs and a P30 but when I tried it on a pair of g19s it happen as you described. I could not rack it or put into battery I basically had to take out the mag and hammer it with my fist. When I took the shot it would extract fine.
I though it was a problem with the glock when it happened twice in the same gun but then it happened with the second one. I attribute the problem to the OAL of the round.
I had the exact same thing happen to me, but with 2 G19s. I had about 2k of that ammo and it has ran flawlessly through a couple of CZs and a P30 but when I tried it on a pair of g19s it happen as you described. I could not rack it or put into battery I basically had to take out the mag and hammer it with my fist. When I took the shot it would extract fine.
I though it was a problem with the glock when it happened twice in the same gun but then it happened with the second one. I attribute the problem to the OAL of the round.
OK, I'm starting to think it may be OAL. Funny thing is I bought a boatload of that GD round (these are Speer factory loaded) and up to now it has functioned in any number of 9mm guns I've owed over the years just fine (including a few CZs, a glock, a Kel-Tec p9, a Steyr M9 and a 1st generation P99). If it is OAL, it's nuts that Walther would make a gun that's finicky about that. And anyone want to buy a PPQ? Only fired 9 times (actually 109 if you count the WWB rounds)!
Alaskapopo
07-02-12, 20:36
OK, I'm starting to think it may be OAL. Funny thing is I bought a boatload of that GD round (these are Speer factory loaded) and up to now it has functioned in any number of 9mm guns I've owed over the years just fine (including a few CZs, a glock, a Kel-Tec p9, a Steyr M9 and a 1st generation P99). If it is OAL, it's nuts that Walther would make a gun that's finicky about that. And anyone want to buy a PPQ? Only fired 9 times (actually 109 if you count the WWB rounds)!
Quiky things happen from time to time. I have seen issues with Gold Dots before. Not saying its bad ammo its not but feeding it can be a challenge for some guns.
Pat
Well, had time to better inspect the gun, mags and the GD ammo. The mags are probably not the issue, as there is plenty of clearance for the round. Also the GD ammo is in spec as far as OAL and case diameter are concerned (checked against numbers in my reloading manuals). However, the GD ammo is definitely longer and wider (by varying degrees--at least 1/100th of an inch in the case of OAL, and a few thousands regarding case diameter measured at the case head) than my WWB, Ranger 124 gr. +P and Ranger 127 gr. +P+ ammo. All of the latter rounds will drop into the PPQs barrel completely with the rims falling below the barrel hood, while the GDs will not (the rims come to rest slightly above the barrel hood on the drop test).
So my conclusion is the cause of the malfuctions is somewhat a GD ammo problem, but mostly a PPQ problem (too tight and/or shallow a chamber, which probably explains why the gun is accurate). I like accuracy, but not at the expense of reliability. I will send it in to S&W and see if the chamber is in spec. If it is I will be unloading the gun--no pun intended.
It is my understanding that P99 mags can have issues in a PPQ as well. The front feed lip on a PPQ mag is supposed to be at a slightly different elevation than the P99 mags.
Did this happen with the PPQ mag, or extra P99 mags you may have had?
It is my understanding that P99 mags can have issues in a PPQ as well. The front feed lip on a PPQ mag is supposed to be at a slightly different elevation than the P99 mags.
Did this happen with the PPQ mag, or extra P99 mags you may have had?
I did not use any p99 mags in the PPQ. I tested the gun with the 2 mags it came with, plus one recenty purchased meccar mag that is supposed to be for the baby desert eagle, but also fits the later generation p99 and the PPQ. I used all three mags and fed WWB fine, and had problems with all 3 using speer GDs (but again, its not the mag--the chamber on the PPQ is too small for the GDs).
azeriosu85
07-03-12, 18:56
well i didn't want to bash this gun, and if you check some other threads, i praised it, however, i sold it recently as it started to jam occasionally with hollow points and 147gr ammo. now the weird part....this SAME ammo worked flawlessly for the first 500 rounds when it had a steady diet of both, recently however it started having failure to go into battery, and failure to feed. pistol was cleaned, inspected, yadda yadda, decided to sell it and take a loss. going to try out the CZ P-01 now i suppose
Well, had time to better inspect the gun, mags and the GD ammo. The mags are probably not the issue, as there is plenty of clearance for the round. Also the GD ammo is in spec as far as OAL and case diameter are concerned (checked against numbers in my reloading manuals). However, the GD ammo is definitely longer and wider (by varying degrees--at least 1/100th of an inch in the case of OAL, and a few thousands regarding case diameter measured at the case head) than my WWB, Ranger 124 gr. +P and Ranger 127 gr. +P+ ammo. All of the latter rounds will drop into the PPQs barrel completely with the rims falling below the barrel hood, while the GDs will not (the rims come to rest slightly above the barrel hood on the drop test).
So my conclusion is the cause of the malfuctions is somewhat a GD ammo problem, but mostly a PPQ problem (too tight and/or shallow a chamber, which probably explains why the gun is accurate). I like accuracy, but not at the expense of reliability. I will send it in to S&W and see if the chamber is in spec. If it is I will be unloading the gun--no pun intended.
........
i think guns with more "rigid" poly frames like the PPQ and P30 have more felt recoil than the Glock because the Glocks frame seems to be thicker yet more flexible. this is bore axis aside,im not talking muzzle flip just recoil felt in the hand.
The PPQ fed about 100 rounds of WWB flawlessly. But then I switched over to my carry ammo--speer gold dot. Every magazine I tried (3), and every time, the gun would jam on the 3rd round by failing to go fully into battery (the rear of the slide stuck out about 1/2 inch). I could not rack the slide either. Only way to clear was to remove magazine, whack the rear of the slide to force it into battery (this could not be done with the magazine in place) and then the gun would fire the round in the chamber. Very frustrating (and a reminder why we should always test our carry ammo).
Not sure what to make of this, but if the chamber was the issue, then why didn't it jam on every round?
I also want to mention the gold dot ammo I was using (124 gr. +P) was about 10 years old (new old stock)--it's pretty hot ammo. I also noticed the OAL was slightly greater than the WWB. When I get the gun back I will also try my other carry round (Winchester Ranger 124 gr. +P and 127 gr. +P+) and report results.
Did you try any other ammunition yet, such as the Winchester Ranger rounds? So far every other ammunition you have reported that you have tested has dropped in the barrel just fine, correct?
Is it possible that the Gold Dots you have may be out of spec?
My old P99 in 9mm never jammed, and I still have a p99 in .40 that I like and that has never jammed, so I remain a Walther fan.
Your 1st generation P99 doesn't have a stepped chamber. Walther just recently switched to stepped chambers in their 9mm models sometime within the last few years, so it is possible that your 1st generation with it's tapered 9mm chamber may be more forgiving than your PPQ.
The Speer GDs I have are "in spec", as far as all the reloading manuals are concerned. Moreover, all my other 9mm pistols have fed this round over the last 10+ years, no problem--including my M&P 9c which fed the round perfectly on the same day the PPQ chocked. The PPQ is the only gun I've ever owned that does not. I therefore attribute the failure to feed to the gun, not the ammo. That said, you are correct that all the winchester ammo I've tried the "drop test" on (3 different kinds) seem to go into the barrel just fine, so obviously the GDs have larger dimensions than that ammo.
As to why every round did not jam: I'm not really sure about the 2nd round, but the first round did not because the momentum of the slide (which I hand-racked) pushing the round into the chamber likely was greater than the momentum of the slide on recoil. In regards to this, after I got home and further inspected the PPQ I found it was possible to "force" some (not all) of the GD rounds into the chamber so that they were even with the barrel hood, which evidently is what the gun requires to operate. Maybe I won the statistical lottery on the 2nd round three times in a row and lost that same lottery on the third round three times in a row. It was 100+ degrees out that day and my frustration level was high, so I was in no mood for further testing. It's also possible there was some case and/or bullet shaving going on that built up in the chamber, and two rounds worth of such shavings was all the gun could stand.
I believe you.
Just out of curiosity, were there any marks on the casings or bullets of the cartridges that had the issue of sticking in the chamber?
I'm assuming either the casing is getting stuck on the step of the chamber, or the bullet is getting stuck in the rifling. A look at one of the cartridges that got stuck should indicate which one it is.
This may help when you get in contact with CS.
Please let us know what S&W or you find what the cause of the jamming is. With all the other PPQ's out there this is the first I have heard about this gun/ammo combo issue, here, the Walther forums, or from anywhere else.
I believe you.
Just out of curiosity, were there any marks on the casings or bullets of the cartridges that had the issue of sticking in the chamber?
I'm assuming either the casing is getting stuck on the step of the chamber, or the bullet is getting stuck in the rifling. A look at one of the cartridges that got stuck should indicate which one it is.
This may help when you get in contact with CS.
I fired the bullets, so nothing to check there. The cases, unfortunately, are all mixed in with my other cases at this point--did not think to examine them. There were some very fine metal flecks/shavings on the underside of the barrel and the slide when I field stripped the gun. The flakes/shavings seemed to be silver colored. On my GDs, the case is nickel plated and the bullet is copper, so these were probably case flakes/shavings, but I don't know for sure.
Please let us know what S&W or you find what the cause of the jamming is. With all the other PPQ's out there this is the first I have heard about this gun/ammo combo issue, here, the Walther forums, or from anywhere else.
Actually, when I had the same problem with my PPQ, I started a post on the Walther Forum and was quickly directed to several threads dealing with the stepped chamber. I adjusted the seating depth on my reloads and the problem went away.
gtmtnbiker98
07-05-12, 19:16
It's strange, I am over 11,000 rounds though my primary PPQ and use 124 +P Gold Dots for my carry load (when I carry the PPQ) and never experienced a problem. Stepped chamber or not, 10-years old or not, I believe your ammo is the problem.
So my conclusion is the cause of the malfuctions is somewhat a GD ammo problem, but mostly a PPQ problem (too tight and/or shallow a chamber, which probably explains why the gun is accurate). I like accuracy, but not at the expense of reliability. I will send it in to S&W and see if the chamber is in spec. If it is I will be unloading the gun--no pun intended. You've already sunk the cash into the gun, right? At least, shoot a box of new production Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P and see if it chambers properly. If you go 50-0, then it makes no sense to sell the gun.
And with all the quality SD ammo on the market nowadays, why not try several others. If the only problem is those vintage SGD, then it doesn't makes sense to unload the PPQ so quickly. Seems kinda backasswards to choose a particular vintage load over a firearm.
Disclaimer: I am a very happy .40 PPQ owner, so I am heavily biased.
Alaskapopo
07-08-12, 12:25
If you have a tight chamberr try Golden Saber. It feeds well in most anything. The main portion of the bullet is under sized and only the base is full caliber. Its also a good bullet.
Pat
You've already sunk the cash into the gun, right? At least, shoot a box of new production Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. +P and see if it chambers properly. If you go 50-0, then it makes no sense to sell the gun.
And with all the quality SD ammo on the market nowadays, why not try several others. If the only problem is those vintage SGD, then it doesn't makes sense to unload the PPQ so quickly. Seems kinda backasswards to choose a particular vintage load over a firearm.
Disclaimer: I am a very happy .40 PPQ owner, so I am heavily biased.
I have quite a few rounds of the old stock GD left, and I don't relish keeping a gun around that won't feed it (Murphy being alive and well, and all). As previously noted, it likely will feed Winchester Ranger ammo just fine, so I'm sure I can find some good SD ammo that it likes. But I reload too, using 124 gr. lead round nose bullets, and I'm guessing this tight chamber is going to cause me problems there. I'll wait to see what S&W says and then decide.
Just my opinion, but I'd keep it and assess my needs.
If you're worried about the tainted ammo finding its way into the Walther, it's not a bad idea to switch out to Ranger-T or HST.
Learned staff at ATK told me that unless I was shooting through a lot of glass, then HST was better than Gold Dot. Likewise, Winchester recommended the Ranger-T over their Bonded line unless shooting through glass was 'a big deal.'
FWIW, I've seem similar failures in one of my PPQs with both +P 124gr Gold Dot and 147gr HST (after feeding several hundred rounds of Speer Lawman without issue) but admittedly I cut the grip off and am using a (modified) P99c mag, so I've been a bit reluctant to attribute it to a generic PPQ issue, but YMMV.
That said, I realized when I did the test, the chamber was pretty fouled. When doing the drop test with the fouled barrel, it seems the rounds sometimes would stick a bit. I didn't actually realize that the chamber was quite that gunky until I was doing he drop test.
I'm going to clean things up and try the test again.
-john
gtmtnbiker98
07-09-12, 16:34
I have quite a few rounds of the old stock GD left, and I don't relish keeping a gun around that won't feed it (Murphy being alive and well, and all). As previously noted, it likely will feed Winchester Ranger ammo just fine, so I'm sure I can find some good SD ammo that it likes. But I reload too, using 124 gr. lead round nose bullets, and I'm guessing this tight chamber is going to cause me problems there. I'll wait to see what S&W says and then decide.Is the ammo sacred, irreplaceable? If there's an issue with the old stock ammo, shoot it in something that eats it and move on.
Radon;
I reload as well, and I'm using a OAL of 1.132 for my 124gr Rn loads this OAL work in my Glock 19, PPQ, P-2000, I've also been using X-treme plated RN's..Checking prices locally in my area, they're cheaper than cast lead, when bought by the thousand,(less clean up, too) One of the easiest ways to find a OAL for a unknown bullet, is to field strip the pistol, get the barrel out (it should also be clean) grab a fired case, fired in that pistol, and start one of the bullets into the case. Insert the bullet/case into the chamber, push until case hits chamber shoulder. Carefully remove. Measure OAL of case/bullet. subtract 0.15 that's your OAL. I usually make a dummy round, and drop it into the chamber, The case should spin freely on the shoulder of the chamber, adjust if needed. Also check over at Brian Enos's fourms they have caliber specific reloading fourms, literally tons of info..anything you want to know about reloading 9mm has probably been covered at one time or another over there...
Radon;
I reload as well, and I'm using a OAL of 1.132 for my 124gr Rn loads this OAL work in my Glock 19, PPQ, P-2000, I've also been using X-treme plated RN's..Checking prices locally in my area, they're cheaper than cast lead, when bought by the thousand,(less clean up, too) One of the easiest ways to find a OAL for a unknown bullet, is to field strip the pistol, get the barrel out (it should also be clean) grab a fired case, fired in that pistol, and start one of the bullets into the case. Insert the bullet/case into the chamber, push until case hits chamber shoulder. Carefully remove. Measure OAL of case/bullet. subtract 0.15 that's your OAL. I usually make a dummy round, and drop it into the chamber, The case should spin freely on the shoulder of the chamber, adjust if needed. Also check over at Brian Enos's fourms they have caliber specific reloading fourms, literally tons of info..anything you want to know about reloading 9mm has probably been covered at one time or another over there...
Thanks for the info. Very helpful.
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