View Full Version : Bad-Ass throw lever Q
For right-handed precision shooters with large paws, what size selector would you recommend for the right side that's minimally obtrusive? I assume the short throw version is more advantageous in this regard?
Thank you.
The BAD-ASS ST or CASS ST is very advantageous for both left and right handed shooters when shooting prone.
With a traditional ambi 90 degree selector or normal BAD-ASS for that matter, I still had to break grip in order actuate the selector.
With the STs, I never have to break grip when shooting in prone.
Thanks. Is the thickness of standard width, short lever an issue when shooting (hence my large hand ref)?
The BAD-ASS ST or CASS ST is very advantageous for both left and right handed shooters when shooting prone.
With a traditional ambi 90 degree selector or normal BAD-ASS for that matter, I still had to break grip in order actuate the selector.
With the STs, I never have to break grip when shooting in prone.
I love these things and have them on three ARs so far.
I have broad palms with short to average fingers and find the standard-short works best for me on the right side. I can easily manipulate it to go on-safe but it's unobtrusive.
BrigandTwoFour
07-06-12, 21:17
I have large hands and use the ST levers. I use standard on the left and stubby on the right. I was using the crank on the right, but was having problems with inadvertently reengaging the safety with my right index finger knuckle.
With the stubby, I can still activate the safety with the first knuckle on my right hand, but I no longer do it unintentionally. The ST levers definitely make manipulation a lot faster.
I don't know if I'm the only one, but when I installed both ST levers, they were a bitch to move back and forth. Two different lowers from two different companies had the same problem. I had to slowly wear in the detent areas by moving them back and forth a lot (sometimes with a small hammer).
Another big guy with large hands here. I use the short throw selector with the stubby levers on both sides. Perfect setup for me.
Thanks guys. I ordered two stubbys and a third standard length as an option for testing.
Good choice. I really like the 45* with short levers on mine.
Just so you guys know that I did take your recommendations:
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/Dr_Wolfenstein/ARs/DSCN2146_sm.jpg
Surprising how little effort is required to manipulate the short levers.
To change the subject slightly: I think someone should come up with an open source AR thread. Ask M4C to recommend/vote for components based on the poster's requirements. This is sort of done now, but is usually specific to a particular item...and many don't listen. The requirement would be that one has to purchase and install the recommendation. Maybe I'll be the cavy.
Just so you know... Not to badmouth your choice or a product backed by many reputable folks.... But just so you know....
"We also asked John [Noveske] what the reason was for the 60 degree throw, he replied they had worked on multiple variations, and found that with a less than a 60 degree throw, in extreme conditions, the weapon could still be fired while on safe if enough pressure was exerted on the trigger."
militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/06/10/noveske-sts-60-degree-selector/
Id like to see some independent testing on BAD's short throw selectors, all sizes. See if there is any truth to this claim and if so, how worrying it is. The article obviously failed to name names, but still disconcerting. I kindly doubt that John Noveske would slander another man's product just to sell his own.
John Noveske might not be able to make a 45 degree throw center that works perfectly, but that certainly doesn't mean BAD Inc. didn't do it long ago. They have tested this extensively in house, and can't reproduce it in the least. Moreover, tons and tons of BAD-ASS STs are in rifles now, and have been for some time....yet not a report about a single occurrence of a discharge on safe.
It would be a much more kosher move for Noveske to clearly spell out that their designs failed below 60 degrees.....not anybody else's design but theirs. The method, and results to document that statement would be nice as well.
The STS may turn out to be the perfect accessory for tons of people in the future, but one thing that should be made very clear.....The BAD-ASS lineup of selectors, and the STS selector are radically different, and the only thing they really share is that their both AR selectors.
The fact one isn't modular in the least, and one uses polymer levers are a few of the most striking differences for myself.
I found the following to be very telling....
In the not to distance past when BAD-ASS customers directly petitioned John to make receivers for ST selectors, he said “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it."
Wonder what changed?
The BAD-ASS ST is a proven product by both company and endusers now. The fact that the ST is now enjoying incredible success in the market, and receiving nothing but glowing review after review is sure to bring competition to the table. So If someone wants to compete with it than good for them, but if you can't seem to get it right with 45 degrees in your design, doesn't mean somebody else isn't doing it right.
That whole 60 degree thing only applies to Noveske, and whatever he did to find that his design couldn't handle anything less than 60 degrees. The BAD-ASS ST design definitely shouldn't be diminished by their competitor's failures.
Iirc, BAD even said their 45 degree selectors could be fired when on safe, if used in an out of spec lower.
Noveske is probably trying to limit their liability, just like BAD did with their ST levers by making it only work with certain lowers and voiding your warranty if you modify them to work with any lower.
I appreciate the information. I was not aware of the alleged issue, but I did mess around quite a bit with ample pressure on trigger on safe and fire modes as I wasn't used to the short throw. It appears to work fine with my setup.
At any rate, I'd like to know more about the "extreme conditions...[and] if enough pressure was exerted on the trigger" as well as to what extent this is affected by the use of aftermarket trigger groups.
That is, what is "extreme", e.g., a failure of the safety spring, detent (or both), trigger sear, introduction of foreign body/material between the detent and lever, etc.? Similarly, what is enough pressure? If John Noveske wants to test that, he can recruit me as I can fully close one of these (http://ironmind-store.com/No3-Captains-of-Crush174-Hand-Gripper/productinfo/1253/). Seriously, I suspect this refers to a blow to the trigger or something similar, but would be beneficial to know nonetheless.
Guys, the 45 degree selector is more sensitive to triggers that vary greatly from factory triggers. So far, we've identified Wilson TR TTU, and TTU MIL, as their rear trigger extension is either too low, or comes up at such an angle that does not engage the 45 degree center.
The AR Gold trigger may not work on some receivers, it works on many others.
We freely publish and share information, as a company, we're remarkably transparent.
For months we were experimenting with short throw selectors with a greater arc, anywhere between 50 and 60 degrees. The reason has nothing to do with these triggers that are so different from factory dimensions, but to make the inevitable slack more tolerable (when the detent is engaged in the detent hole, you can rotate the lever back and forth a little, which is normal).
With hundreds of 45 degree selectors (both the dovetailed and non-dovetailed) in the wild, these are the only cases we know about. In every case, switching to either a factory or Geissele trigger has solved the issue. In some cases, we exchanged the incompatible triggers with Geissele triggers (we're a Geissele distributor).
IF the concept was flawed enough to manifest its shortcomings in semi auto guise, these users would have found them,and that would have been the end of it.
Pax, the manufacturers of 45 degree compatible receivers have already done their testing. Rainier Arms, AXTS, Legion Firearms, Accurate Armory, to name a few. If you have a receiver that's not out of spec, a trigger other than Wilson TTU, you can test it, we'll provide you with a 45 degree selector to boot. You will find the proof yourself ;)
We welcome competition, end users have more choices and it keeps up the pressure to continue to innovate and improve. With companies making better products than the status quo, end users benefit from higher quality and better ergonomics, it's a win for them :)
I've been running the ST since early last year, and haven't once noticed any tendency for the trigger to push off the ST selector.. And, I've pushed pretty hard. Noveske is taking the safe approach as they cannot control which trigger the customer has fitted into the lower of their rifle, and producing a semi- short throw selector to cover any liability issue that may arise from the use of their selector with trigger components that may not be to specific dimensions. My ST integrates well with a Geissle trigger that I purchased along with the selector.
Brigand,
There was a batch early in 2012 where the detent hole dimensions were machined incorrectly, we had published the recall info. Please email me with your shipping info, I will send you a replacement and couple of detents. The center itself will hardly wear, being made of much harder steel and heat treated, what made the rotation smooth now on the defective center is the detent, which has been chewed up and worn in (thus we'd like to send you new detents with the new center)
Thank you.
I have large hands and use the ST levers. I use standard on the left and stubby on the right. I was using the crank on the right, but was having problems with inadvertently reengaging the safety with my right index finger knuckle.
With the stubby, I can still activate the safety with the first knuckle on my right hand, but I no longer do it unintentionally. The ST levers definitely make manipulation a lot faster.
I don't know if I'm the only one, but when I installed both ST levers, they were a bitch to move back and forth. Two different lowers from two different companies had the same problem. I had to slowly wear in the detent areas by moving them back and forth a lot (sometimes with a small hammer).
BrigandTwoFour
08-09-12, 10:21
Wow, that's very generous of you. I would greatly appreciate it. My info is incoming.
Replacement parts sent, should arrive in 2 or 3 days :)
Replacement parts sent, should arrive in 2 or 3 days :)
Wow! I'm not the person requiring the replacement, but you guys rock.
Looks like I need to order 26 more of these :eek:
BAD-ASS safeties are the shit. As I said before my short throw is terrific and the difference in the 45° vs others is a huge one IMHO. After a little "breaking in" the manipulation of the safety is smooth and clicks into position. Simply terrific.
Thanks guys :)
Warg, if you need more than a few, please let me know and we'll set it up as a group buy :D
Since this does come up now and then, these are the parts included:
Selector with 2 or 3 levers (depending on configuration)
KNS detent
2 extra Grade 8, T10 screws (2 screws are installed and on the selector), the package comes with 4 total
Detent spring
T10 Torx wrench
Each is made to order.
What is not included is screws with thread locker already applied. Thread locker is something almost all of us have, and it's easily obtainable locally, not so much the extra parts we include. Screws with thread locker already applied will need a fresh coat if a user screws / unscrews half a dozen times, we do not use them because not everyone knows that, and we don't like false sense of security.
Battle Arms products carry life time, unconditional, and transferable warranty. Free lever exchange program is also life time, and unconditional :)
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