Please Forgive Me...

[FF_Turkish]

...for yet another "what should I get thread"

I have done a lot of exhaustive research online and looked at the main "FAQ" and "Which One Should I Buy" topics. I have not yet actually gone to my local arms dealer and played with the sights so that is something I know I still need to do. The trouble I am having is settling on a final set-up, once I have a set-up in mind then I will narrow down to brands, type, etc. With all the stuff on here it is sometimes hard to sort through the chaff and find the info you are looking for, so I am posting today to get a more tailored response. If I piss anybody off by looking for a little help..."Lighten up Francis."

BACKGROUND: Purchased my first AR approx 1 wk ago. Colt 6920 Socom (I think I made the right choice, but I don't want this to turn into a pro-Colt/anti-Colt thread). I have very little to no experience/education with optics despite all of the research I have done. I shot .22s a lot as a kid and I mess around with shotguns every so often. My intent for the use of the Colt is primarily for home defense and SHTF scenarios....however, how often is that going to happen? A secondary use that will get much more of a workload is taking it to the range for practice, practice, practice. I would like to shoot at varying distances with it because while fun, I think the 0-100 range would get boring after awhile. There are times when I would want to stretch her legs a bit. Since this is my first AR, and probably will be my only for at least for another year or two (then I can have two and not worry about this topic!), my dilemma is what to put on there as far as optics.

Originally, I was planning on going with either a EO Tech/Aimpoint RDS/HWS with a magnifier. Considering the Trijicon SRS as well if the new EO Tech GS33 would work with it.

That was my plan until I started doing more ACOG research...that was a mistake

Now I am looking at ACOG with RDS options. The TA11 and TA33 are the models I have looked at most. The other issue of course is where to put the RDS Mounted on the top? Mounted at the 1 'O Clock? Obviously if I went with a piggyback option, I'd have to go with an RMR or something similar. If mounted on the side, I have a few more options and I could go wtih a Micro T1, RMR, etc. This is one topic I couldn't find a definitive "this is the best way to do it" answer. A lot of dudes prefer the piggyback, a lot of guys prefer the side mount. Since I am already considering spending close to $1,100 on a RDS and mag option, should I just go with an ACOG with a RDS option?

Then there is the whole 1x4 debate which throws another wrench into things. It has me intrigued, but I just can't settle on something. As you can imagine, I'm frustrated.

So I am really stuck on which direction I should go. Would like to keep the total price in the range of $2k or less. I strongly feel that a RDS/HWS is a must. Having some sort of magnification, while not necessarily a must, would get me a lot more use and fun out of it on the range. With all that being said....what say you guys? Am I fine with just a EO Tech HWS and mag or should I step up and go big with the ACOG/RDS combo, or a 1x4? Keep in mind I am just starting out in ARs and associated optics (yeah I know, start with irons). Genuine answers appreciated, smarmy and crass answers tolerated. Thanks in advance.

[wtheesfeld]

$2k or less for optics?! Buy them all and return or sell what you don't like!

Personally I have an eotech (which I love) but I'm getting more and more curious about aimpoints.
With the eotech I'm pretty much spot on up to 300yards.... I'd need a magnifier to be accurate further but maybe its just my eyesight

With that kind of budget, the sky is the limit, amigo

[totenkopf_u64]

If the purpose is home defense, get a light and then an aimpoint or eotech.

It sounds like you really want the best of everything... good luck with that. Nearest i can figure is that an illuminated, 1-x scope would be your best bet.

I overcooked my eggs this morning... does that count as a SHTF scenario or should i be thinking bigger?

[Packman73]

Maybe you should look at an Accupoint...

[Jellybean]

Two grand for optics alone? You're thinking to cheap- go for a USO or S&B variable scope! :lol:

On a more serious note- I had this same dilema a short while ago (and here's the link to the thread if you want-it even has a poll for quick reference: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=99080)- actually I'm still having it, but here's what I've come to the conclusion of so far-

I'm not sure I really like ACOG's- nothing wrong with them, I just personally don't like fixed power magnified optics. However I've never had the opportunity to try one with an RDS mounted.

For a low-power variable- I was playing around with a scope on the .22 just switching between 1x and 4x, and it seemed to me I would want more than 4x magnification- like at least a 1-6x. Just looking at a 100 yard target, I didn't see enough of a marked improverment over my standard Mk1 Eyeball to interest me anymore in a 1-4x optic.

Red dot/Holographic sights- Without the long speel I'm sure everyone else here will present better than me anyway, GET ONE.
Pick any Aimpoint that tickles your fancy, or one of the Eotech XPS/EXPS line. I used to have an "old" 512 on my first AR, but it got sold, and after test-shooting a T1, I think I like just a single dot a little better- your preference though.
Check the EE section here. Also, if I recall correctly dsgarms.com had a combo for either a T1 or CompM4 (either standard or "S" version) WITH an ADM QD mount in your choice of absolute, or 1/3 co-witness.

For standard general pupose use, there's not much you can't do with an RDS. They're also stupidly easy to figure out how to use, and they also make shooting accurately like 100x more stupidly easy.
I would also mention to get an RDS/HWS with the smallest dot you can get (2 MOA Aimpoint for example) as this will aid in shooting longer distances. Which, btw, if you check around here there was just a thread about long distance shots with red dot's- probably not 1-hole groups if that's what you're looking for, but the results might be more impressive than you would think.

I can't say anything about a magnifier- have never even laid eyes on one. But hey, you've got 2 grand, and it's not like it's an un-sellable item. :p
Speaking of which, you do have mags and ammo, right? Great! Get some more.
Not to derail the thread, but I wish someone had told me that before I frittered away my money trying out stupid shit. Now I have neither an optic, nor enough ammo/mags. :mad:
With your stated optic budget alone you should be able to afford a nice sight, plus a light, mags and ammo, especially if you shop around a bit.

[shootist~]

You want both an Aimpoint (or Eotech) and a 1.x to 4 or 6x. Learn them both and down the road get a second AR. There is no need for a dual mount for starting off. Get QD mounts (Bobro, ADM or LaRue in no specific order) - swapping will be easy enough until you get your feet wet.

I favor an illimunated 1.x variable optic for dual use; in part because I'm weak-eye dominate and it's difficult for me to shoot both eyes open. Using both eyes is mandatory to get the full benefit from a RD. Figure this part out early on.

My HD gun has a Micro Aimpoint (superior battery life - it never gets turned off). My truck (long) gun has an Aimpoint Comp ML3 (also long battery life). But the rifle I shoot the most - square range, 3-Gun (both close and long distance matches), and sniper wana-be, has a Nightforce 2.5-10x32. It's by far the favorite of all my magnified optics.

75% of my time (not rounds) is spent on steel at 200 - 600+ meters, the rest are mostly at 10 to 50 yds. There is nothing magical about 100 yards - and I agree it's the most boring distance to spend much time at.

[FF_Turkish]

Two grand for optics alone? You're thinking to cheap- go for a USO or S&B variable scope! :lol:

On a more serious note- I had this same dilema a short while ago (and here's the link to the thread if you want-it even has a poll for quick reference: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=99080)- actually I'm still having it, but here's what I've come to the conclusion of so far-

I'm not sure I really like ACOG's- nothing wrong with them, I just personally don't like fixed power magnified optics. However I've never had the opportunity to try one with an RDS mounted.

For a low-power variable- I was playing around with a scope on the .22 just switching between 1x and 4x, and it seemed to me I would want more than 4x magnification- like at least a 1-6x. Just looking at a 100 yard target, I didn't see enough of a marked improverment over my standard Mk1 Eyeball to interest me anymore in a 1-4x optic.

Red dot/Holographic sights- Without the long speel I'm sure everyone else here will present better than me anyway, GET ONE.
Pick any Aimpoint that tickles your fancy, or one of the Eotech XPS/EXPS line. I used to have an "old" 512 on my first AR, but it got sold, and after test-shooting a T1, I think I like just a single dot a little better- your preference though.
Check the EE section here. Also, if I recall correctly dsgarms.com had a combo for either a T1 or CompM4 (either standard or "S" version) WITH an ADM QD mount in your choice of absolute, or 1/3 co-witness.

For standard general pupose use, there's not much you can't do with an RDS. They're also stupidly easy to figure out how to use, and they also make shooting accurately like 100x more stupidly easy.
I would also mention to get an RDS/HWS with the smallest dot you can get (2 MOA Aimpoint for example) as this will aid in shooting longer distances. Which, btw, if you check around here there was just a thread about long distance shots with red dot's- probably not 1-hole groups if that's what you're looking for, but the results might be more impressive than you would think.

I can't say anything about a magnifier- have never even laid eyes on one. But hey, you've got 2 grand, and it's not like it's an un-sellable item. :p
Speaking of which, you do have mags and ammo, right? Great! Get some more.
Not to derail the thread, but I wish someone had told me that before I frittered away my money trying out stupid shit. Now I have neither an optic, nor enough ammo/mags. :mad:
With your stated optic budget alone you should be able to afford a nice sight, plus a light, mags and ammo, especially if you shop around a bit.

A lot of good info on your thread...thanks. Still undecided :mad:

[Failure2Stop]

How are your eyes?
Any astigmatism or history of cornea scratches/abrasions?

[FF_Turkish]

How are your eyes?
Any astigmatism or history of cornea scratches/abrasions?

Marginal at best. Astigmatism, corneal scratches in the right, and thin corneas in both...denied LASIK for that. Wearing contacts and glasses I am correctable to 20/25.

[gman556]

I wear glasses, and I whent through this a while switching back an forth from RDS to 1-4x optics. My astigmatism pretty much ruled out RDS for a while. Of coarse the only RDS i tried were the Eotechs, because I figured the 1moa dot would be all my astigmatism would be able to deal with, but the Eotech dot still sucked for my astigmatism, so I got rid of them. Also the one thing I didn't like about having a 1-4x, was the bulkiness of it, but I kept using it.

In the meanwhile I was still missing the simplicity of a RDS, so I sold off a couple of things, and gave the new Aimpoint T-1 2moa a go, and bingo!!! For whatever reason I can't figure, the 2moa dot works for me. I sold off the Bulky 1-4x, and bought another Aimpoint PRO 2moa for my other AR.

I can't explain it, but for my astigmatism, the 2moa dot works. I would of thought that the smaller the dot(1moa) the better it would be, but not so in my case.

Aimpoint is what I chose.

[Failure2Stop]

Marginal at best. Astigmatism, corneal scratches in the right, and thin corneas in both...denied LASIK for that. Wearing contacts and glasses I am correctable to 20/25.

Then I would not recommend an Aimpoint or EoTech for anything past 50 meters with any expectation of precision.

I would advise you to take a look at traditional reticle presentations, such as that in the ACOG line, a low powered variable, or the Prismatic.

[Amur]

......

[rob_s]

I have an astigmatism and the ACOG TA33 is my favorite general purpose optic. With the front cap closed and both eyes open I don't give up much, if anything, at close range and only give up a slight bit in low light indoors.

[FF_Turkish]

I have an astigmatism and the ACOG TA33 is my favorite general purpose optic. With the front cap closed and both eyes open I don't give up much, if anything, at close range and only give up a slight bit in low light indoors.

Do you run a RMR with that Rob?

[rob_s]

Do you run a RMR with that Rob?

No, absolutely not. I cannot stand those piggy-back setups and have never seen anyone use one efficiently.

[QuackXP]

What about a RDS and a magnifier?

I'm curious about this as well. Life long .22 shooter got into defense pistols in 2007 and first AR-15 (6920) in June of 2012. Currently I'm shooting irons. Rifle will be for HD and range. For HD I am pretty much set on a RDS. But I have thought that at magnifier might be nice for some longer distance range shooting.

[FF_Turkish]

No, absolutely not. I cannot stand those piggy-back setups and have never seen anyone use one efficiently.

I was thinking more along the lines of an offset if I went that route. The consensus seems to be if you are going to go ACOG/RMR, do it with an offset.

[BrigandTwoFour]

It's pretty much already been said.

For 2K you could get a variety of optics and swap between them as needed for whatever purpose. use an SRS (rumor is that it's not as sensitive to astigmatism or other eye issues) for nights that the rifle is behind the headboard, and then put on an 'cog when you want to go to the range.

If you only want one, then Rob's suggestion of a TA33 is right on. Another option, though heavier, is the TR24 or something similar. Lots of variety out there when it comes to the low power variables.

[Moltke]

You are forgiven. Just go buy an optic and ammo, and start shooting.

[Failure2Stop]

I think you need to figure out for yourself which direction you want to go:
ACOG
Low powered variable
1X

The TA33 is the only ACOG I like, but I don't like it as much as a good low powered variable. The TA01 NSN is ok, but is still severely hampered by the eye relief issues of the 31 series.

A piggybacked MRD can be effective on a COG, as can an offset mount. They each have their pros and cons, and it mostly comes down to application on which one I would recommend. I would not choose that setup for HD though, and if I have to, I would probably lean toward the offset over the doggy-style. For me, the top mounted RMR is not so much for close range as it is for the times I can't get behind the ACOG, whereas the offset is for general use with the ability to flip the gun when magnification is desired. This is something that took me a while to fully put into perspective.

Sticking a magnifier behind an EoTech or Aimpoint is not going to do anything to make that dot blur and distort any less. As I said before, the distortion won't be a significant factor at 50 meters and closer, but I find precision work at 100 meters and out to be very difficult when compared to iron sights, low powered variables set on 1x, and the Prismatic.

My personal preference is for a low powered variable in the GP role. The problem is that they are heavier and (generally) more expensive. To me the weight trade-off is worth it, for what I do. If you don't care about shooting 12" circles at 500 meters/heads at 300 meters, along with the ability to detect and ID at those distances, you might not need what I prefer. That being said, I generally do push the magnification up to 4x for 100 meters or more if time permits.

You also have the option of picking up a good 1x optic along with a another flavor of magnified optic of your choice, and putting them on good mounts, which will allow you to swap them depending on your application.

[rob_s]

After re-reading this

Purchased my first AR approx 1 wk ago.


I have to agree with this

Just go buy an optic and ammo, and start shooting.



Although with only a week in I'd even say just go shoot with the damn irons. You seem to have reached a point of analysis paralysis, or if you haven't yet you're damn close to it.

[FF_Turkish]

After re-reading this



I have to agree with this




Although with only a week in I'd even say just go shoot with the damn irons. You seem to have reached a point of analysis paralysis, or if you haven't yet you're damn close to it.

Yep. Just going to go with a RDS and the irons for now. Which RDS, I don't know yet. But since I am new to the AR world, going to make it easy on myself. I'll worry about the other optic stuff a few months down the road. Thanks for the input fellas.