View Full Version : Took a chance on PSA
Fuzzy-Reticle
07-10-12, 23:26
I have been reading threads for a few weeks now here and on the other site about PSA. I have been eyeballing a PSA M4gery at a local store here in Southern Colorado, Tri Lake Shooting Supply. Top notch store and the owner is as good as gold. Super nice guy and has great prices. (shameless plug)
On to the review and my initial impressions.
I inspected the rifle before buying it checking for properly aligned feed ramps and if the FSB was canted. They both looked good. Trigger was decent. Finish was even and showed no thin spots or other issues. A sort of matte black. Not the deep semi gloss type seen on Colts or BCM but not bad at all.
It was one of most dry rifles I have ever seen. It had almost no lubrication of any kind visible inside the rifle. There was some in the BCG but that was it. For what it is worth I have seen RRA rifles sealed in plastic bags swimming in lube/preservative. Makes no difference to me since it will be cleaned and lubed before firing any way.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2808.jpg
Palmetto logo on upper is subtle and barely visible in most light. The upper is not marked M4.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2806.jpg
The magazine it ships with is some sort of GI metal mag with a dark black finish and an anti tilt follower. I will put a picture up later as I just left it in the box and put that away. Doubt I will ever use it.
The manual is a cheap photo copy just stapled together. No big deal to me. A better manual would be useful for users who are buying as a first rifle. The USMC pocket manual would have been a better choice IMHO but this is a budget rifle. My Noveske did not come with one at all and it was the most expensive AR I have ever owned.
The barrel is marked 5.56 NATO 1/7 MP CL Palmetto.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2782.jpg
I did not look under the handguards until I got home. When I did I saw a stylized M or W near the barrel nut. Really it look like a stick figure drawing of a bird. :p Wilson or Mossberg? Don't know. My gut says it is a Wilson barrel and not FN.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2785.jpg
The gas key is well staked.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2794.jpg
The Castle nut is also well staked.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2799.jpg
The bolt carrier is a full auto type.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2788.jpg
Now the bad news. The bolt is not marked HPT/HPI.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2790.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2789.jpg
The extractor has a black insert and a D ring
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2805.jpg
Feed ramps look good.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2784.jpg
Front site is F marked
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/IMG_2809.jpg
Over all it appears to be well put together. Nothing rattles or shakes and the upper and lower fit pretty tight and the take down pins require some effort to push out.
My only complaint is the bolt not being marked and I am curious about who actually made this barrel. I hear FN makes a lot of barrels for PSA but it could be a Wilson or a Mossberg from the weird M or W or whatever it is.
I was concerned enough about the bolt that I went back to the shop to talk to the owner about it. He was shocked. He opened another PSA rifle box he just got in and we both inspected it together. The bolt was not marked. We also inspected the bolt on the PSA he had on the rack. Not marked. The owner walked over to the phone and called PSA. I hear the entire conversation. PSA claims that the rifle was part of a shipment sent to Ellet Brothers wholesaler and that some of the rifles in this shipment did not have proof mark on the bolt but that they are indeed HPI/HPT tested. The owner of the store was visibly stunned. He like I was under the impression that all of the bolts PSA put in their rifles had this proof mark. He offered me a partial refund for my trouble. I accepted. I then told the owner that I would buy a Magpul MBUS from him and to take the partial refund out of that price. He decided to just give me the MBUS for my trouble. He didn't have to do that or offer anything to me but he did. Dan is a stand up guy in my book and I WILL buy from him again. If you are looking for an honest dealer in Colorado go to Tri Lakes shooting Supply.
The jury is still out on PSA but other than the bolt it looks good to me. I need to run it hard and see what shakes loose.
For the price I can't complain all that loud about the bolt missing proof marks and since the owner of the store tossed me a bone I am good with them 100%.
I will take it out for a trial run as soon as the state stops catching on fire!
YMMV.
I would not be overly concerned about the lack of bolt markings. Palmetto state armory makes the claim on their site and should be expected that they are indeed high pressure magnetic particle inspected. 1 of my associates in arizona purchased 1 and his main comment was carbine was overgassed. I am pretty sure that those barrel markings indicate they are made by FN.
I would not be overly concerned about the lack of bolt markings. Palmetto state armory makes the claim on their site and should be expected that they are indeed high pressure magnetic particle inspected. 1 of my associates in arizona purchased 1 and his main comment was carbine was overgassed. I am pretty sure that those barrel markings indicate they are made by FN.
From what I heard only PSA's CHF barrels are FN barrels. They make it pretty obvious which ones are FN barrels (heavily marketed as such).
Nightvisionary
07-11-12, 00:58
Why would a full auto bolt carrier be bad news?
From what I heard only PSA's CHF barrels are FN barrels. They make it pretty obvious which ones are FN barrels (heavily marketed as such).
The way I've heard it, all their CHF barrels are FN but not all of their FN barrels are CHF. Some of the non-CHF barrels are FN and some are other manufacturers.
justlikeanyoneelse
07-11-12, 01:55
I am very curious about this as well.
Why would a full auto bolt carrier be bad news?
BufordTJustice
07-11-12, 03:02
I am very curious about this as well.
I'm assuming he was referring to the lack of markings on the bolt, not the FA nature of the carrier. The OP's sentence could have been structured better.
The way I've heard it, all their CHF barrels are FN but not all of their FN barrels are CHF. Some of the non-CHF barrels are FN and some are other manufacturers.
This is correct.
Its also known that some of their bolts were sent out non marked but they were tested according to PSA. Living here in the Carolinas I have assembled quite a few of PSA's rifle kits and know a lot of people who own their rifles and shoot them a fair amount. I only know of one guy who had problems with his.....the rest have been reliable and accurate. I still think they are a great value at the lower price point and would recommend them over the typical commercial brands DPMS, Bushy, or RRA.
I really can spell, however Tapatalk keeps screwing everything up!
I would not be overly concerned about the lack of bolt markings. Palmetto state armory makes the claim on their site and should be expected that they are indeed high pressure magnetic particle inspected. 1 of my associates in arizona purchased 1 and his main comment was carbine was overgassed. I am pretty sure that those barrel markings indicate they are made by FN.
That sucks, did he/you measure the port size? Curious as to what diameter PSA is using...
plouffedaddy
07-11-12, 08:05
I own 3 PSAs and have built at least 10 for friends since I live about 5 minutes from their store...
I've never had an issue with any of them and IMO they're the best deal going in the AR market; even with recent price increases.
PalmettoStateArmory
07-11-12, 08:52
The barrel on that rifle was made by FN Manufacturing for PSA. There would not be an FN rollmark, it would be a PSA rollmark.
The bolts are mil-spec shot-peened carpenter 158, they may or may not be marked. The uppers will all have M4 feedramps, but may not have the M4 mark above the gas hole.
You have purchased a quality rifle that we back up with a lifetime warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. Please contact CS if you have any further questions.
Biggy
12-21-11, 12:37
Here is a reply from Joe Weir from Palmetto State Armory about an inquiry I had about their cold hammer forged barrels they have for sale.
11-03-11
Thanks for the inquiry on our FN sourced barrels, FN cuts the profile, installs the M4 barrel extensions, drills the gas ports, cuts and crowns the muzzle, threads the end of the barrel, roll marks the barrel, phosphate coats the barrel, does the high pressure test and Mag particle inspects each one. We do not get FN barrel blanks, we get fully finished barrels from FN.
Let me know if you need any further assistance.
HackerF15E
07-11-12, 09:22
The 4140 barrels are (were?) made by Wilson.
The barrel on that rifle was made by FN Manufacturing for PSA. There would not be an FN rollmark, it would be a PSA rollmark.
The bolts are mil-spec shot-peened carpenter 158, they may or may not be marked. The uppers will all have M4 feedramps, but may not have the M4 mark above the gas hole.
You have purchased a quality rifle that we back up with a lifetime warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. Please contact CS if you have any further questions.
Not trying to split hairs or anything, but I still don't see an answer as to whether the bolts are HP/MP tested? I also see alot of the wording on the website has changed to say "Carpenter 158 shot-peened bolts" with no mention of individual testing. Can you clarify this for those concerned?
Thanks.
PA PATRIOT
07-11-12, 10:30
The only bad part about bolts lacking testing marks and cryptic manufacturer roll marks on barrels is that it can deter prospective buyers and affect resale value down the road as many may not believe the bolt was actually HPT/HPI tested and question the manufacturer of the barrel.
PSA sets the conditions for how they buy the bolts and barrels from the manufacturers and one would think if they are marketing items which are supposed to be tested in a certain way or manufactured by a certain company said item would be properly marked.
If anything the markings are a selling point of a quality product and the lack of such markings leaves "Questions" and for me I may buy from another vendor who has properly marked items just for the reassurance I am receiving what I'M paying for.
Not throwing stones but vendor claims to actual properly marked product is important to potential buyers.
Positive Displacement
07-11-12, 10:39
The barrel on that rifle was made by FN Manufacturing for PSA. There would not be an FN rollmark, it would be a PSA rollmark.
The bolts are mil-spec shot-peened carpenter 158, they may or may not be marked. The uppers will all have M4 feedramps, but may not have the M4 mark above the gas hole.
You have purchased a quality rifle that we back up with a lifetime warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. Please contact CS if you have any further questions.
Not trying to split hairs or anything, but I still don't see an answer as to whether the bolts are HP/MP tested? I also see alot of the wording on the website has changed to say "Carpenter 158 shot-peened bolts" with no mention of individual testing. Can you clarify this for those concerned?
Thanks.
"They may or may not be marked", so I take it that they follow the MIL-SPEC standard and they are HPT/MPI. As PSA stated in their reply.
"They may or may not be marked", so I take it that they follow the MIL-SPEC standard and they are HPT/MPI. As PSA stated in their reply.
Eluding to it, is not saying it. The website clearly claimed HP/MP testing until recently, now it just says what they stated above.
And I agree with Phila, if you want to avoid this, mark them.
Just sayin.
Shot peening and material selection of the bolt is far more important than HPT/MPI
Shot peening and material selection of the bolt is far more important than HPT/MPI
I don't disagree, but the wording change has made me curious. It has been pointed out already, but the markings matter to some when/if you try to re-sell a largely unknown brand name product.
Shot peening and material selection of the bolt is far more important than HPT/MPI
That is true - IF they have their process controls in place to ensure that the bolt they're making is capable of withstanding HPT and passing an MPI afterwards.
If it's a concern, just get a MPI/HP tested bolt from BCM (or the like) for $60-70 and be done with it.
Getting rounds downrange with it is going to tell you more about what you've really got than just-out-of-the-box analysis.
Bizzarolibe
07-11-12, 13:13
I have had nothing but good experiences with PSA. As to whether their AR's are up to par with the big names out there, only time will tell. Please keep us updated OP.
As to their 16" carbines being overgassed, that may be true; however, the 14.5" middy I build for my mom (PSA FN CHF upper) is certainly not. It is quite soft-shooting and ejects LC M855 right around 3:30.
totenkopf_u64
07-11-12, 13:23
Labeling confusion aside, i would trust that your bolt is hp/mp. I ordered a complete "premium" BCG from them and, if memory serves, my bolt was not marked hp/mp. When i looked into it, it appeared a that this happens but the bolts are fully tested.
I'll go home and check my bolt if anyone is interested.
sinlessorrow
07-11-12, 13:33
That is true - IF they have their process controls in place to ensure that the bolt they're making is capable of withstanding HPT and passing an MPI afterwards.
Why does everyone worry about HPT?
Your bolt wouldnt pass MPI after 3,000 rounds anyways yet we run them to nearly 10,000 rounds.
Also from what I have read HPT reduces bolt life by 40%. I would be fine with a batch test for HPT and then dispose of that one, but thats just me. Batch testing is good for 99.9% accuracy.
totenkopf_u64
07-11-12, 13:36
Why does everyone worry about HPT?
Your bolt wouldnt pass MPI after 3,000 rounds anyways yet we run them to nearly 10,000 rounds.
Also from what I have read HPT reduces bolt life by 40%. I would be fine with a batch test for HPT and then dispose of that one, but thats just me. Batch testing is good for 99.9% accuracy.
Citation wanted. Interesting if true.
sinlessorrow
07-11-12, 13:47
Citation wanted. Interesting if true.
From Rsilvers here https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-65955.html
"By the way, even the bolt that does "fail" MPI is probably still a bolt with thousands of rounds of life left in it as it just has a microcrack on it that all AR bolts have after 3,000 to 5,000 rounds. "
Also this from silvers
Originally Posted by rsilvers
Many of us have bolts in our ARs right now with thousands of rounds on them that would fail MPI if tested today, yet we still keep them in our rifles. AR bolts crack with use - they just do. We know today, but maybe not 50 years ago, what that means in real-world terms - that the bolt should be replaced at 5000 rounds for super hard use, or 10,000 rounds for typical use, or when it fails if we don't really care.
ETA: its 15-25% life reduction.
HPT is a waste of time and money. It also reduces the life of the bolt. I have stated this analogy before but it is like wrecking a new car into a brick wall and inspecting the frame for cracks. It is an archaic process . The government and industry should do away with it and come up with more productive forms of standardized acceptance /quality control . MPI bolts every 5000 or so rounds would be much more productive. I got news for you guys bolts crack then they break. There is sometimes no way of telling how long a bolt will go after it cracks before it fails. Many of the bolts in your trusted guns out there are cracked.
KAC does not HPT their holts and they offer 20,000 round bolt life if they HPT it would knock off 5,000!!!
It is my opinion that HPT will reduce the life span of a bolt. My estimate is 15 to 25%.
Not a PSA but I remember some time ago being somewhat surprised to find that my first DD bolt wasn't marked; I have little doubt however that it was tested.
It's important to some people that all the testing be done.
It's important to others that the product they're buying be of that same high quality whether or not it's actually tested.
HPT was important to show the physical effects on the physical bolt in order to estimate the durability of the part. By using a proofing round they are able to see what the overpressure does to the surface of the metal and therefore have an idea of how their production lines are running. Unfortunately, HPT is a destructive method of testing and could result in reduced service life of the part, but it has been the preferred method for a long time.
jasonhgross
07-11-12, 14:25
I am uninformed on the PSA rifles. Just curious, why would you go with this instead of a Colt 6920?
doubletap2211
07-11-12, 14:33
If everyone had that thinking there would only be one manufacturer. Competition is good.
I am uninformed on the PSA rifles. Just curious, why would you go with this instead of a Colt 6920?
I think PSA is popular because they're tied in with FN to some degree and they're offering this deal which is a decently made rifle with an optic.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/psa-16-hammer-forged-m4a1-patrol-rifle-package.html
If everyone had that thinking there would only be one manufacturer. Competition is good.
Competition is good. Hopefully it will force Colt to get further into the modernized/accessorized AR game. In the past few months we've seen them offering Magpul furniture, FF rails, back up irons and other stuff.
Bizzarolibe
07-11-12, 14:41
I am uninformed on the PSA rifles. Just curious, why would you go with this instead of a Colt 6920?
Because PSA rifles are, on paper, identical in terms of technical specifications (i.e., barrel steel, M4 feedramps, and other "chart" features), are hundreds of dollars less and are offered in many different configurations.
Of course, they are newcommers to the AR industry and so naturally people will be skeptical towards them (I still am, but after many good experiences with them I am not nearly as skeptical as I once was). There have been a few snafu's along the way for PSA that they had to get ironed out, but I haven't heard about any major problems in quite a while.
doubletap2211
07-11-12, 14:42
Competition is good. Hopefully it will force Colt to get further into the modernized/accessorized AR game. In the past few months we've seen them offering Magpul furniture, FF rails, back up irons and other stuff.
Agree 100%
From Rsilvers here https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-65955.html
"By the way, even the bolt that does "fail" MPI is probably still a bolt with thousands of rounds of life left in it as it just has a microcrack on it that all AR bolts have after 3,000 to 5,000 rounds. "
Also this from silvers
Originally Posted by rsilvers
Many of us have bolts in our ARs right now with thousands of rounds on them that would fail MPI if tested today, yet we still keep them in our rifles. AR bolts crack with use - they just do. We know today, but maybe not 50 years ago, what that means in real-world terms - that the bolt should be replaced at 5000 rounds for super hard use, or 10,000 rounds for typical use, or when it fails if we don't really care.
ETA: its 15-25% life reduction.
KAC does not HPT their holts and they offer 20,000 round bolt life if they HPT it would knock off 5,000!!!
Product testing should be done if the product is not KNOWN to be of the desired quality. Once the product is KNOWN to pass a test then there is no point to performing that test because you already KNOW the results. You certainly wouldn't do it with every part that is made, and certainly not using a destructive method of testing. Unfortunately that is the industry standard for AR bolts.
That being said HPT is not an entirely bad thing because there are several companies out there making bolts and rifles who also claim to be of high quality, that I doubt would pass HPT/MPI. And so how do you know if a company's bolt will pass HPT/MPI if you don't do the testing? Do you just want to take a company's word for it that "our stuff its great"?
Anyway, I can read right on PSA's website at the link I posted above that their bolts are HPT and MPI tested.
Quoted from their website - http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/psa-16-hammer-forged-m4a1-patrol-rifle-package.html
"Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, MPI and HPT. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo."
ETA: It's towards the bottom in the details.
sinlessorrow
07-11-12, 15:08
Product testing should be done if the product is not KNOWN to be of the desired quality. Once the product is KNOWN to pass a test then there is no point to performing that test because you already KNOW the results. You certainly wouldn't do it with every part that is made, and certainly not using a destructive method of testing. Unfortunately that is the industry standard for AR bolts.
That being said HPT is not an entirely bad thing because there are several companies out there making bolts and rifles who also claim to be of high quality, that I doubt would pass HPT/MPI. And so how do you know if a company's bolt will pass HPT/MPI if you don't do the testing? Do you just want to take a company's word for it that "our stuff its great"?
Anyway, I can read right on PSA's website at the link I posted above that their bolts are HPT and MPI tested.
Quoted from their website - http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/psa-16-hammer-forged-m4a1-patrol-rifle-package.html
"Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, MPI and HPT. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo."
ETA: It's towards the bottom in the details.
Thats why I said batch testing would be better, if you do a testing of 5-10% of bolts per batch it should guarantee that the rest should be fine.
Anyway, I can read right on PSA's website at the link I posted above that their bolts are HPT and MPI tested.
Quoted from their website - http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/rifles/psa-16-hammer-forged-m4a1-patrol-rifle-package.html
"Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, MPI and HPT. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo."
ETA: It's towards the bottom in the details.
And here is one of the several listings where it is omitted. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/psa-14-7-cmv-mid-length-lighter-weight-chrome-lined-mp-upper.html
"Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec shot-peened Carpenter 158 steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome-lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo."
Hence the confusion. Start shipping bolts without proof marks & stop listing it on your product description and wonder why people ask questions?
Thats why I said batch testing would be better, if you do a testing of 5-10% of bolts per batch it should guarantee that the rest should be fine.
As it would be "better" because it would be cheaper and less destructive overall, it's still unnecessary if you know what the outcome is going to be. Ideally a manufacturer will get to the point where they're making bolts well enough that they don't need to do HPT anymore because they know everything they make is good. However it may be worth their while to continue to HPT and MPI parts if their customer base has a perceived value in the testing...
And here is one of the several listings where it is omitted. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/psa-14-7-cmv-mid-length-lighter-weight-chrome-lined-mp-upper.html
"Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec shot-peened Carpenter 158 steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome-lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo."
Hence the confusion. Start shipping bolts without proof marks & stop listing it on your product description and wonder why people ask questions?
Thanks, yeah I see that. I also see their description of the barrel mentions MPI but not HPT. It would be nice if the PSA rep would come back and explain exactly what's up.
As it would be "better" because it would be cheaper and less destructive overall, it's still unnecessary if you know what the outcome is going to be. Ideally a manufacturer will get to the point where they're making bolts well enough that they don't need to do HPT anymore because they know everything they make is good. However it may be worth their while to continue to HPT and MPI parts if their customer base has a perceived value in the testing...
Then it's time to educate the customer base.
Carpenter steel can only be bought in large lots to be affordable. Small companies selling only a few bolts cannot afford to buy Carpenter steel. It would be much more cost effective to buy bolts from a company already making them to spec. This leads me to believe that Carpenter steel AR bolts come from the same one or two sources, all made the same way, all meeting the same specs. I don't think we have to worry about bolts made from Carpenter steel
I am uninformed on the PSA rifles. Just curious, why would you go with this instead of a Colt 6920?
Lower price with perceived same quality. They haven't been used enough or long enough for that to be proven out however.
I have a 12" barrel from them, that was manufactured/roll marked by FN and I love it. There's no spec for a 12" barrel but the GP seems on the small size, .066. a few members here can attest to how soft it shoots, it's definitely not over gassed. Couple thousand rounds with no issues. But it won't reliably cycle steel.
Then it's time to educate the customer base.
Carpenter steel can only be bought in large lots to be affordable. Small companies selling only a few bolts cannot afford to buy Carpenter steel. It would be much more cost effective to buy bolts from a company already making them to spec. This leads me to believe that Carpenter steel AR bolts come from the same one or two sources, all made the same way, all meeting the same specs. I don't think we have to worry about bolts made from Carpenter steel
What you just said makes sense because that's what we've seen in the market so far, but without more detailed information on the suppliers or production centers for C158 bolts, I'm not ready to make that blanket assumption.
Lower price with perceived same quality. They haven't been used enough or long enough for that to be proven out however.
I have a 12" barrel from them, that was manufactured/roll marked by FN and I love it. There's no spec for a 12" barrel but the GP seems on the small size, .066. a few members here can attest to how soft it shoots, it's definitely not over gassed. Couple thousand rounds with no issues. But it won't reliably cycle steel.
Really? That surprises me. Both the 14.7" and 16" I have from them cycle anything, no issues. Even the crappy silver bear & so on, no issues. I rarely use steel, but a few of us went together on a group buy & got some pretty cheap so I took a case to try it out & had zero failures with it.
Will it run on PMC?
What's the port sizes on those? Mine had the A5 too which exacerbates the issue. PMC ran 300/300 IIRC but I dot use it much, mostly Federal.
It's gotten better with steel though, runs it 80% of the time now. When the gun was freshly assembled the success rate was closer to 20%. After a couple thousand rounds the action spring is 12.15", close to needing replacement, maybe that's why it accepts steel stuff more willingly now.
sinlessorrow
07-11-12, 18:20
Then it's time to educate the customer base.
Carpenter steel can only be bought in large lots to be affordable. Small companies selling only a few bolts cannot afford to buy Carpenter steel. It would be much more cost effective to buy bolts from a company already making them to spec. This leads me to believe that Carpenter steel AR bolts come from the same one or two sources, all made the same way, all meeting the same specs. I don't think we have to worry about bolts made from Carpenter steel
I agree.
Following the TDP is great, but you have to remember the techniques used in it were designed 50yrs ago, there are far better ways to do bolts now days that are not destructive in nature.
What we need is a current day TDP, using current day techniques and materials.
Op: PSA does indeed HPT their bolts even if its not needed and does more harm than good.
Fuzzy-Reticle
07-11-12, 18:29
I purchased the PSA over the COLT for pure financial reasons. I have really cut down on my shooting due to other considerations over the last year (two kids getting older and demanding more of my $$).
I had a Noveske and could not justify having that much $ tied up in a rifle that I would only shoot 2 or 3 times in the next 12 months. So I sold it.
The PSA had a very reasonable price on it for the specs listed. I figured I could have a decent reliable rifle and still have a little extra in my wallet. I still own a COLT HBAR pre 89, and a BCM middy.
I figure my 12 year old daughter and 8 year old son can shoot the PSA while I bang away with my other rifles. I do not share very well with others but I am happy to get them one of there own. :D
Chances are I will leave this thing bone stock and add only a detachable carry handle. I may steal my son's Vortex Strikefire from his S&W MP 15-22. :rolleyes:
Now if I can get some free time to shoot it and see how it does.
I have seen a report of a user on the other site who has run 5,000 or so rounds through his PSA with no issues. It is by no means a filthy 14 but not bad.
What's the port sizes on those? Mine had the A5 too which exacerbates the issue. PMC ran 300/300 IIRC but I dot use it much, mostly Federal.
It's gotten better with steel though, runs it 80% of the time now. When the gun was freshly assembled the success rate was closer to 20%. After a couple thousand rounds the action spring is 12.15", close to needing replacement, maybe that's why it accepts steel stuff more willingly now.
I have no idea about the port sizes. They are both FN CHF barrels. The 16" I bought at the same time you got your 12" and the 14.7 I got this spring. I do not believe they are over gassed at all because I can purposely induce short stroking with an H2 or H3 and weak ammo, like PMC, but an H buffer just runs & runs on any ammo.
Not scientific tests, I'm aware, but it makes sense to me.
Haha I'm tracking. On the same train of thought (or craziness? who knows)
ComradeBoris
07-11-12, 22:06
I just ordered one today in the Vtac configuration. Once I get my hands on it and run some rounds through it I will make a post.
And here is one of the several listings where it is omitted. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/psa-14-7-cmv-mid-length-lighter-weight-chrome-lined-mp-upper.html
"Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec shot-peened Carpenter 158 steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome-lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo."
Hence the confusion. Start shipping bolts without proof marks & stop listing it on your product description and wonder why people ask questions?
I completely agree with your line of reasoning and everything you have stated in this thread.
To me it appears that PSA has carefully chosen its words in order to avoid an outright answer. It sure seems suspicious. In my experience most of the time people act like that it is because they are doing their best to conceal the truth without actually lying.
My parents bought me a PSA-15 last week (holy shit can you believe it! First time in my life anybody ever bought me a gun, I was in shock) as my first AR. (got my dad and brother guns at the same time). I got onto the internet, mostly M4C, after that and looked up everything I could find about PSA. The result...the PSA was returned/exchanged to the LGS (full value) and I left with a Colt LE6920 this morning.
I'm not personally willing to roll the dice given the totality of the circumstances surrounding PSA at this point in time.
ComradeBoris
07-11-12, 23:22
I know there are such things as a known quantities, but none of the literature I have come across or read here indicates they make a rifle even close to DPMS or Shrubmaster in terms of poor quality. There seems to be a collective notion on many forums that if you don't buy from a handful of companies you are wrong. Are they newer? Yes. have they demonstrated an inferior product? I should say thus far no. Not going to ridicule anyone for buying a colt. They are good to go. But how did BCM get their start? They make a good rifle and for a lower cost than colt.
I see the normal if it isn't a high dollar gun it no good crowd is all over this thread! Get over it people you don't have to spend alot to have an excellant AR.:rolleyes: And yes I own a PSA, been totally reliable.
justin_247
07-12-12, 00:38
I see the normal if it isn't a high dollar gun it no good crowd is all over this thread! Get over it people you don't have to spend alot to have an excellant AR.:rolleyes: And yes I own a PSA, been totally reliable.
You really have a sorry attitude. NOBODY on this forum has ever stated that "if it isn't a high dollar gun it no good." What I have seen emphasized time and again on this forum is that for the shelf cost of a low grade AR, such as a Bushmaster or DPMS, one can easily buy a quality AR, like a DD or Colt, if they hold their horses and shop around.
People on this forum are skeptical of PSA because they had a lot of initial issues with their builds, and people were extremely skeptical when they started marketing premium parts, like FN barrels, for cut rate prices. The same thing happened with Spike's rifles, and over time this has died down.
ComradeBoris
07-12-12, 01:19
Companies make mistakes, how they handle it is what I am keen on. I sent Bushmaster an email about the POS bolt carrier I had, not a single response ever. Most companies I have delt with, XS, Ameriglo, Heinie, had great service and response. I like a company that rights their wrongs, not one that makes a good / bad product and leaves you hanging if you have an issue. I am not really directing this at anyone in particular, but I don't like to see a company smeared for something they haven't necessarily done yet. But proof is in the pudding. We shall see if PSA pans out.
I am uninformed on the PSA rifles. Just curious, why would you go with this instead of a Colt 6920?
I don't own anything PSA, and PSA isn't on my list of future long guns.
That said, some of us do not like the 6920. There are much better choices in Colt's line up, IMHO.
I really like my PSA carbine. I've put quite a few rounds through it and have run it pretty hard and it's been trouble free. I got my money's worth
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/Carbine_Tools.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/Carbine.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0012-1.jpg
You really have a sorry attitude. NOBODY on this forum has ever stated that "if it isn't a high dollar gun it no good." What I have seen emphasized time and again on this forum is that for the shelf cost of a low grade AR, such as a Bushmaster or DPMS, one can easily buy a quality AR, like a DD or Colt, if they hold their horses and shop around.
People on this forum are skeptical of PSA because they had a lot of initial issues with their builds, and people were extremely skeptical when they started marketing premium parts, like FN barrels, for cut rate prices. The same thing happened with Spike's rifles, and over time this has died down.
Agreed, I don't get that vibe from the forum at all.
Now that the QC issues are behind us, and their CS has stepped up to fix issues, I'll say that it appears their claims have all been substantiated, no? It's one thing to promise then world then get called out on it but it seems they have backed their claims up each time with no problem.
Before i get called a fanboy I'll add that I only have one barrel and a handful of stripped lowers from them with no issues. I had to give em a shot for the price and I've been very happy. Everything else I've for is Colt, BCM, KAC, LMT, etc.
I live in South Carolina. I was interested in supporting a local company. I was also very cynical about PSA. I own several Colts, Noveske, and DD, LMT. I purchased a PSA with a Troy Modular Rail System. I have beat on this rifle with 15K rounds in less than 3 months. 5 days of classes. I am impressed so far. I am allowing it to be used in some loaner classes in the future. Will report back soon.
My DD is still my go to gun needless to say.
Good feedback that's what we need go hear. Looking forward to your future input.
HackerF15E
07-12-12, 20:15
I have beat on this rifle with 15K rounds in less than 3 months. 5 days of classes. I am impressed so far. I am allowing it to be used in some loaner classes in the future. Will report back soon.
Thanks for this report. Finally, something quantifiable in reply to all of the "nobody has ever 'run a PSA hard'" posts.
If there are other folks out there with similar use, please post 'em -- good or bad.
PA PATRIOT
07-13-12, 22:36
I live in South Carolina. I was interested in supporting a local company. I was also very cynical about PSA. I own several Colts, Noveske, and DD, LMT. I purchased a PSA with a Troy Modular Rail System. I have beat on this rifle with 15K rounds in less than 3 months. 5 days of classes. I am impressed so far. I am allowing it to be used in some loaner classes in the future. Will report back soon.
My DD is still my go to gun needless to say.
The PSA had no gun related failures or broken parts in the 15K fired?
Is there any conclusion to this?
Is it now safe to assume the PSA bolts are not necessarily all HPT/MPI?
Greyman09: More follow up/report on those 15k rounds?
...Is it now safe to assume the PSA bolts are not necessarily all HPT/MPI?...
That invoked a facepalm reaction so strong it left two black eyes
No rifle related malfunctions. Gun has not really had a detailed clean just lubed heavily.
ComradeBoris
07-15-12, 09:43
Good to hear a pretty solid report if a PSA gun being run like a raped ape. It is only a sample of one, but hopefully it is an indicator of the general production population now.
I had a PSA stainless 16" with a 223 wylde chamber. No issues and it shot well, but I sold it to finance an SBR upper in 5.56.
cthompson36
07-15-12, 10:54
I haven't put my PSA through alot but it seems well put together and works flawlessly for what I've done...
I don't know exactly how many rounds have been through my PSA, but I have close to 3k rounds worth of empty ammo shipping boxes laying around holding various empty cases and gun parts
That invoked a facepalm reaction so strong it left two black eyes
I'm just following this thread. I haven't seen any update from PSA since this.
Did I miss something?
And here is one of the several listings where it is omitted. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/psa-14-7-cmv-mid-length-lighter-weight-chrome-lined-mp-upper.html
"Bolt: Bolt is made of Mil-spec shot-peened Carpenter 158 steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is parkerized outside, chrome-lined inside, and laser engraved with the Palmetto State Armory logo."
Hence the confusion. Start shipping bolts without proof marks & stop listing it on your product description and wonder why people ask questions?
The barrel on that rifle was made by FN Manufacturing for PSA. There would not be an FN rollmark, it would be a PSA rollmark.
The bolts are mil-spec shot-peened carpenter 158, they may or may not be marked. The uppers will all have M4 feedramps, but may not have the M4 mark above the gas hole.
You have purchased a quality rifle that we back up with a lifetime warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. Please contact CS if you have any further questions.
Not trying to split hairs or anything, but I still don't see an answer as to whether the bolts are HP/MP tested? I also see alot of the wording on the website has changed to say "Carpenter 158 shot-peened bolts" with no mention of individual testing. Can you clarify this for those concerned?
Thanks.
Bizzarolibe
07-15-12, 18:08
I live in South Carolina. I was interested in supporting a local company. I was also very cynical about PSA. I own several Colts, Noveske, and DD, LMT. I purchased a PSA with a Troy Modular Rail System. I have beat on this rifle with 15K rounds in less than 3 months. 5 days of classes. I am impressed so far. I am allowing it to be used in some loaner classes in the future. Will report back soon.
My DD is still my go to gun needless to say.
Are you a firearms instructor?
Also, what were the specs on your specific PSA? Was it a CHF barrel, or one of their standard barrels? Just curious, and thanks for the report.
I am not a firearms instructor but I am associated with a training company. Paladin training is a 501c3 non profit. Any revenue received from conducting training classes are used to provide no cost training to law enforcement and military.
It is really a cool thing to be part of and am proud to serve on the board. The director of training had this dream a few years ago and we incorporated as a 501 last November. We are in the process of building our new training facility in SC. I will be glad to share any information on the company. The website is going through a major overhaul as we have hired several new top quality instructors. All of our instructors are certified instructors at a federal level and have law enforcement and military backgrounds.
I am not a firearms instructor but I am associated with a training company. Paladin training is a 501c3 non profit. Any revenue received from conducting training classes are used to provide no cost training to law enforcement and military.
It is really a cool thing to be part of and am proud to serve on the board. The director of training had this dream a few years ago and we incorporated as a 501 last November. We are in the process of building our new training facility in SC. I will be glad to share any information on the company. The website is going through a major overhaul as we have hired several new top quality instructors. All of our instructors are certified instructors at a federal level and have law enforcement and military backgrounds.
I've trained with Paladin a couple times in the past and Steve runs a great operation. I'm looking forward to being back in SC later this year and hopefully making it to another class.
My personal experience with PSA is limited to their stripped lowers (excellent in my few samples) so I won't comment on anything else.
Socom Elite
07-16-12, 09:21
I've takn a good look at mine and its a good rifle. Good key staking, feed ramps, f marked FSB and tapered pins, tested and marked bolt and Good BOlt carrier. I buy el cheapo ammo for range time (tula) and it eats it up and dumps it out. I keep a barrel log of what type of ammo and how many rounds and how it functions. So far 1k rounds and no issues even with junk steel ammo.
I have run green tips through it to test accuracy and can keep it just over 1MOA groups. Im going to buy some good 68gr and see what it can really do. Or see what I can do. A 1 MOA rifle with chrome lining is fine with me. I plan on going to some classes with this rifle so time will tell I guess
http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt11/hockey55/d5710055.jpg
http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt11/hockey55/d35ced99.jpg
Fuzzy-Reticle
07-19-12, 00:21
Update:
I got a call from Dan at Tri Lakes Shooting Supply. He called me to tell me that he contacted PSA and had them send him a Hpt/Hpi marked bolt. He said I should come in and pick up my new bolt!
I was stunned.
HOLY SHIT! Talk about service and going above and beyond for a customer!
DAN IS THE MAN.
Kudos to PSA also for standing behind their product and dealer.
Update:
I got a call from Dan at Tri Lakes Shooting Supply. He called me to tell me that he contacted PSA and had them send him a Hpt/Hpi marked bolt. He said I should come in and pick up my new bolt!
I was stunned.
HOLY SHIT! Talk about service and going above and beyond for a customer!
DAN IS THE MAN.
Kudos to PSA also for standing behind their product and dealer.
This all still seems a bit unclear (whether they are or are not if unlabeled). But if you get the one that's marked I guess then you'll 'know'.
Excellent service, that is.
I am not a firearms instructor but I am associated with a training company. Paladin training is a 501c3 non profit. Any revenue received from conducting training classes are used to provide no cost training to law enforcement and military.
It is really a cool thing to be part of and am proud to serve on the board. The director of training had this dream a few years ago and we incorporated as a 501 last November. We are in the process of building our new training facility in SC. I will be glad to share any information on the company. The website is going through a major overhaul as we have hired several new top quality instructors. All of our instructors are certified instructors at a federal level and have law enforcement and military backgrounds.
I've heard very good things about Paladin from guys who know what they are talking about.
I had no idea you guys were a non-profit. I love that business model though. I seen you take donations, so I'll have to remember you guys come tax time.
Be safe.
I've heard very good things about Paladin from guys who know what they are talking about.
I had no idea you guys were a non-profit. I love that business model though. I seen you take donations, so I'll have to remember you guys come tax time.
Be safe.
Thank you for the support. I really believe in what Paladin is doing. It is a great mission statement. We can use all the help we can get as we are doing remote training and working on our permanent facility right now. We are getting more requests each day to provide training but are funds limited. We are going to have some fundraiser initiatives soon.
I've just recently joined this forum as well as aquired a PSA rifle (my first AR). I was looking at DPMS, Bushmaster, Windham, and others. After reading this thread, I'm glad I got the PSA. I've only ran about 150 rounds through it so far. It felt great. I'll probably do a lot more reading than posting on here as I've got a lot of learning to do on ARs.
I'm just following this thread. I haven't seen any update from PSA since this.
Did I miss something?
So, I really cannot get an answer to such a basic question?
Is M4C not about, you know, facts?
Is everybody just assuming that all of these bolts are HPT/MPI even though they are not marked and even though PSA isn't claiming they are?
I just...don't get this. What am I missing?
p22shooter30
10-10-12, 13:26
Customer Service: 1.803.788.9095
call them and let us know what you find out. about, you know, the facts.
So, I really cannot get an answer to such a basic question?
Is M4C not about, you know, facts?
Is everybody just assuming that all of these bolts are HPT/MPI even though they are not marked and even though PSA isn't claiming they are?
I just...don't get this. What am I missing?
Just call them, email them or PM their account on this very site; it's not that hard...
Mine is marked:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/bc310352/photo-12.jpg
This is not palmettostatearmory.com. If you want to know what their specs are then email or call them and ask directly.
So, I really cannot get an answer to such a basic question?
Is M4C not about, you know, facts?
Is everybody just assuming that all of these bolts are HPT/MPI even though they are not marked and even though PSA isn't claiming they are?
I just...don't get this. What am I missing?
Breadstick
10-10-12, 16:04
warp: even if you do get them to answer you...will you believe them?
thier website tells you pretty much everything about thier carbines/rifles specs.
After I saw my PSA "dissy" upper go 800 rounds (in a day) on a FA lower, I was sold.
that was over a year ago and many of hundreds of rounds since...crap steel, federal steel, and all kinds of brass.
I'll shoot what ever I can get a good deal on and that gun has shot it all.
Only issue I had with it was a 20pmag that just didn't feed right.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/Breadstick360/CompleteDissyIII.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/Breadstick360/ARII.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/Breadstick360/577.jpg
I only use the older colt mags (metal follower) for the 20rnd mags now anyways.
PalmettoStateArmory
10-10-12, 16:41
Our PSA BCG (the one with our logo laser etched into it) has a tested bolt in it. Each one is individually tested. These are the BCG that ship with our complete uppers.
The generic "M16 BCG" we sell that does not have our logo may or may not have a tested bolt in it. They may or may not be marked as being tested even if they are. If they are tested they may have been individual or batch tested. They are still Carpenter 158 steel bolts. We make no claim on them as being tested.
HackerF15E
10-10-12, 17:39
Our PSA BCG (the one with our logo laser etched into it) has a tested bolt in it. Each one is individually tested. These are the BCG that ship with our complete uppers.
The generic "M16 BCG" we sell that does not have our logo may or may not have a tested bolt in it. They may or may not be marked as being tested even if they are. If they are tested they may have been individual or batch tested. They are still Carpenter 158 steel bolts. We make no claim on them as being tested.
Thanks for clearing that up and stating things plainly.
Our PSA BCG (the one with our logo laser etched into it) has a tested bolt in it. Each one is individually tested. These are the BCG that ship with our complete uppers.
The generic "M16 BCG" we sell that does not have our logo may or may not have a tested bolt in it. They may or may not be marked as being tested even if they are. If they are tested they may have been individual or batch tested. They are still Carpenter 158 steel bolts. We make no claim on them as being tested.
Thank you.
BTW: The issue wasn't enough to prevent me from making my 4th order with y'all this year over Labor Day
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/1865f6e1.jpg
p22shooter30
10-11-12, 13:19
im still awaiting on part of my order from labor day :suicide:
When PSA first listed their "M-16 BCG" on their website I called in and asked whether they were HPT and MPI. The lady I spoke to told me that they were. Based on that, I ordered one for my Dad's AR build. Now I see that they are selling both the "M-16 BCG" and the "M-16 MPI BCG." That and PSA's last post in this thread conflicts with what I was told by their rep. I will be pissed if that BCG shows up with an unmarked bolt.
It also goes to show you that you can't just trust what you are told on the phone.
It would really help if they would just outright list whether things like this are done in their product descriptions, knowing that these things are some of the main things people care about when buying BCG's. You shouldn't have to scour internet forums to find out info like this.
I have a Daniel Defense bolt with no markings at all. I have heard about unmarked bolts on several other top line manufacturers too. In the end, we have to take the vendors word on whether or not they are MPI/HPT. Afterall, it's pretty easy just to mark them and not do any testing at all.
On the shipping subject. I ordered a blem'd PSA upper on Sept 25th and it shipped on Oct 19th (I checked and it's in Anchorage, AK today) so I will see it tomorrow. Just a little over two weeks they say it will, but they do add the disclaimer that specials (which this was) might take longer. Overall, I'm happy with the shipping side of things. We will see if I'm happy with the upper this weekend.
It's a plinker for the kids at a plinker price. it should be fine.
I took a chance on PSA too, late this summer. I ordered two Lowers, a LBK, a Labor Day Sale 16" Light Profile Mid-length Upper, M16 BCG MP tested and a charging handle all for under $700. I've put close to 500 rounds through it with a couple FTF/FTE early on due to some crappy Remington UMC .223 HP ammo. It has been running fine ever since. It hasn't been to a class, so no high volume shooting yet. We will see what happens over time.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3621.jpg
F marked FSB
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3730_zpsa720130a.jpg
Chrome lined BCG
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3630copy.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3632copy.jpg
M4 feed ramps
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3638copy.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3656.jpg
FN made chrome lined barrel
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3645.jpg
Target from when I was sighting in my irons at 25 meters.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3721_zpsf20a7342.jpg
Does anybody know if they parkerize under the FSB? Was thinking about picking up one of their uppers soon...
They didn't park under mine
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/Carbine_Tools.jpg
It's a stainless steel barrel:haha:
Does anybody know if they parkerize under the FSB?
Mine was.
HackerF15E
10-24-12, 05:08
Mine was.
Same with mine.
Does anybody know if they parkerize under the FSB? Was thinking about picking up one of their uppers soon...
Add me to the yes's
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/SBR/56C1FF30-7BE8-4ED1-87F1-2F887EB808D3-227-00000006D6A050A7.jpg
I had no complaints with the PSA that I owned
Just ordered a PSA upper. Hopefully it's a good item. I'm just a little leary do to the $270 price tag.
Just ordered a PSA upper. Hopefully it's a good item. I'm just a little leary do to the $270 price tag.
I had a buddy and his dad that wanted a couple, so they ordered four, plus lowers, LPK's, BCG's, and CH's. Pretty sweet to build a complete M4 that checks all the right boxes for $600! I'm helping them build the lowers (maybe just doing it for them); and in gratitude, they added an upper to their order for me!
I'm excited to have it. Don't get me wrong, I love my tricked out DD's, but I'm planning to watch the EE's on the boards for the next 6 months or so and try to put a KISS truck gun together for $500 or so.
I had a buddy and his dad that wanted a couple, so they ordered four, plus lowers, LPK's, BCG's, and CH's. Pretty sweet to build a complete M4 that checks all the right boxes for $600! I'm helping them build the lowers (maybe just doing it for them); and in gratitude, they added an upper to their order for me!
I'm excited to have it. Don't get me wrong, I love my tricked out DD's, but I'm planning to watch the EE's on the boards for the next 6 months or so and try to put a KISS truck gun together for $500 or so.
Very cool! I've been very happy with the PSA lower as well. Get one to go with your new upper
Very cool! I've been very happy with the PSA lower as well. Get one to go with your new upper
I plan to, but am waiting for them to (hopefully) go on sale for $50 again:D
Thanks guys. You made me feel a lot better about my purchase.
I took a chance on PSA too, late this summer. I ordered two Lowers, a LBK, a Labor Day Sale 16" Light Profile Mid-length Upper, M16 BCG MP tested and a charging handle all for under $700. I've put close to 500 rounds through it with a couple FTF/FTE early on due to some crappy Remington UMC .223 HP ammo. It has been running fine ever since. It hasn't been to a class, so no high volume shooting yet. We will see what happens over time.
So you have, what, 300 rounds through it without a malfunction?
What was wrong with the Remington ammo?
I plan to, but am waiting for them to (hopefully) go on sale for $50 again:D
I doubt they'll get that low again. A couple of weeks ago they did blem lowers for $59.99 and those sold out in a couple of hours after thy went up.
I have yet to try anything other than lowers from them but this thread is convincing. That and the fact that $1k for a spec built midlength with an Aimpoint PRO mounted is a ridiculous deal.
So you have, what, 300 rounds through it without a malfunction?
What was wrong with the Remington ammo?
It was some of the first rounds I put through the gun. 45 grain bullet I believe. Caused a malfunction every 3-4 rounds out of one mag. I stopped shooting them and just used PMC 55 gr. and PMC 62 gr. NATO green tips with no more malfunctions. I don't know what was causing the problem.
ETA: My mid-length has a carbine buffer in it.
This is what the malfunction looked like:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/2012-09-21_11-46-21_535_zpscd6954d8.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3681_zpse2c8b71e.jpg
It was some of the first rounds I put through the gun. 45 grain bullet I believe. Caused a malfunction every 3-4 rounds out of one mag. I stopped shooting them and just used PMC 55 gr. and PMC 62 gr. NATO green tips with no more malfunctions. I don't know what was causing the problem.
ETA: My mid-length has a carbine buffer in it.
This is what the malfunction looked like:
My gun was doing the exact same thing. A BCM extractor spring and o-ring fixed the issued with every type of ammo I've put through it.
Fuzzy-Reticle
10-24-12, 18:40
Purchased another PSA lower last week. Why not. $89
My gun was doing the exact same thing. A BCM extractor spring and o-ring fixed the issued with every type of ammo I've put through it.
I'll make sure I order some of those. You aren't the first person to recommend that fix to me. Thanks.
Purchased another PSA lower last week. Why not. $89
Good to hear. How is the rifle in your OP doing?
I hope you didn't mind me chiming in on your thread about my experience with PSA.
Just bit the bullet on a blem lower. All great reviews, so at $60, I can't be too upset.
If the quality is good and everything works fine, I plan on ordering a few more.
Edit - Yes, that's right... they are in stock.
My guess is that those days are long gone. PSA lowers used to be $80 and now they're $100. Blems are $60 and I suggest you get it now before they sell out again
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/receivers/palmetto-state-armory-blemished-lower-receiver.html
I'll make sure I order some of those. You aren't the first person to recommend that fix to me. Thanks.
Anytime. What was happening, at least on my gun, was that the extractor had enough tension to extract the case while it was still guided by the chamber, but dropped it before it could be ejected. 'Twas a head scratcher at first, for sure. My gun runs everything from Tulammo to hot 5.56 with no issues now.
Fuzzy-Reticle
10-24-12, 19:59
Since my OP I purchased a second PSA complete rifle. I ended up selling it to help offset the cost of a Colt 6920. Had to get one since all the cool kids are doing it.
My original PSA runs like a champ and has over 1700 rounds through it. Accurate enough in my feeble hands. I have no complaints. I like it enough that I purchased lower and lower parts kit for a future A2 build I am planning.
PSA is a really good value in todays crowded AR market IMHO. I saw some guy that has run his PSA well into the 3000+ round count with no problems. That does not suck. Time will tell but so far so good with the samples I have used.
Anytime. What was happening, at least on my gun, was that the extractor had enough tension to extract the case while it was still guided by the chamber, but dropped it before it could be ejected. 'Twas a head scratcher at first, for sure. My gun runs everything from Tulammo to hot 5.56 with no issues now.
It runs everything with no issues now that you upgraded a couple of the PSA parts to BCM?
It runs everything with no issues now that you upgraded a couple of the PSA parts to BCM?
Yes. The stronger extractor tension was all that was needed. I suspect just the stronger spring (and there is a visible difference) would have worked fine as well, but I put the o-ring on while I had the bolt apart and never looked back.
Okay.
I only ask because I have a PSA bolt for my rifle but I haven't used it yet (backup, will check it out next range trip). Keeping an eye out for possible fixes if anything comes up
I've got a PSA lower and kit I'm waiting to put together. I've been following them for a while and I'm looking forward to it.
My son's PSA blem midlength upper showed up today. Delivery was just at 3 weeks.
The blem is a section that is cut too deep, barely discernible, about 1" wide just forward of the FSB. You can't see it without really looking and you can barely feel it. Finish on the barrel is good. M4 feedramps are properly lined up and cut.
The F marked FSB is installed with taper pins. There are a couple tiny marks on the FSB from drill shavings so it appears that it was installed on a finished barrel without an unfinished area under the FSB.
The upper receiver forging mark is a square, the same as on my DDM4. However, this really means nothing as the final machining is what really counts. Machining looks really good and the finish is good. It is "duller" and more gray than my DDM4 upper. It matches the Aero Precision lower we mated it to perfectly. Fit with the four lowers we own, two AP's, one Double Star and my DDM4 is just about perfect.
We ordered this one without a BCG. We equipped it with my discarded DD charging handle and my spare BCM BCG. Cycling with dummy ammo was flawless and ejection was lively. This honestly means nothing unless something is really screwed up, but it made the kid happy to mess with it.
We topped it with a 4x12 Vortex scope to check accuracy and will shoot it this weekend. I will start with an H buffer, which my DD middy runs well, and see how it goes. Hopefully it runs good and we won't have any issues.
tmoore912, you probably should put an H buffer in that thing too.
My guess is that those days are long gone. PSA lowers used to be $80 and now they're $100. Blems are $60 and I suggest you get it now before they sell out again
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/receivers/palmetto-state-armory-blemished-lower-receiver.html
Dang, gone again. That's what I get for sleeping.
PalmettoStateArmory
10-25-12, 10:36
Okay.
I only ask because I have a PSA bolt for my rifle but I haven't used it yet (backup, will check it out next range trip). Keeping an eye out for possible fixes if anything comes up
If you have any issues and the BCG doesn't have an o-ring send me a PM and I can get one sent to you.
My son's PSA blem midlength upper showed up today. Delivery was just at 3 weeks.
...
The upper receiver forging mark is a square, the same as on my DDM4. However, this really means nothing as the final machining is what really counts. Machining looks really good and the finish is good. It is "duller" and more gray than my DDM4 upper. It matches the Aero Precision lower we mated it to perfectly. Fit with the four lowers we own, two AP's, one Double Star and my DDM4 is just about perfect.
We ordered this one without a BCG. We equipped it with my discarded DD charging handle and my spare BCM BCG...
Pretty much the same here with a PSA midlength upper I bought during the Labor Day sale (not a blem). Mine also has the square forge mark, as does my Daniel Defense and BCM. Finishing on the DD is the best but nothing wrong with the PSA or BCM. All three uppers fit well on my non matching lowers (S&W, ArmaLite and Valkyrie). Feed ramps on all three are excellent.
Interestingly I also went with a BCM BCG and used my old DD charging handle. I feel pretty good about the PSA upper with the upgraded BCG and their sale prices of $270 (non-hammer forged) are hard to beat.
The blem we got was hammer forged, for $279. Pretty good deal on a CHF barrel.
Shot peening and material selection of the bolt is far more important than HPT/MPI Not really as the HPT/MPI part of a quality product.
Ran two hundred rounds through my son's new upper today. 10F temps, but it ran great. 100 rounds with a carbine buffer, 100 with an H buffer. No real difference in performance. There were zero failures of any type. The barrel was accurate enough to make regular hits on clay pigeons at 200 yards with a 4x12 scope and using the magazine as a monopod off the bench.
BufordTJustice
10-26-12, 17:05
The blem we got was hammer forged, for $279. Pretty good deal on a CHF barrel.
Damn. All psa chf barrels are by FN as far as i know. Hell of a deal.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
anyone know if their M-16 BCG w/o MPI marking on bolt are batched tested or shot peened?
Not really as the HPT/MPI part of a quality product.
No. HPT/MPI does nothing to improve or control quality. It can only assure that the quality control processes are correct and were correctly followed. HPT (High Pressure Testing) actually reduces the life of the bolt. Once the quality control processes are proven and in control (control means it gives the same results every time), HPT/MPI are no longer needed.
However, shot peening actually relieves stress and increases bolt life. It is more important than HPT/MPI
anyone know if their M-16 BCG w/o MPI marking on bolt are batched tested or shot peened?
What was the description of the part when you ordered it?
From earlier in this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1414396&postcount=84
Our PSA BCG (the one with our logo laser etched into it) has a tested bolt in it. Each one is individually tested. These are the BCG that ship with our complete uppers.
The generic "M16 BCG" we sell that does not have our logo may or may not have a tested bolt in it. They may or may not be marked as being tested even if they are. If they are tested they may have been individual or batch tested. They are still Carpenter 158 steel bolts. We make no claim on them as being tested.
It seems to me that PSA has proven themselves as being worthy of better than BM, OLY, CMMG, Stag, and others of the like enough to put them in line with the mid to upper quality brands.
Do I prefer to see proof testing on my components and laser etching or stamp of the supplier/retailer? Yes - I want to know who to fault when there is a failure that was not my making - premature BCG failure, horrid accuracy from a barrel or premature erosion. I would be nervous in buying a "Mystery" component like a BCG, or barrel that did not have specs in the item description.
I would hate to see PSA become an outlet for shoddy parts that failed a manufacturers QC guidelines.
We've acknowledged that their customer service is found wanting, and QC on parts kits has some issues. I've ordered from them several times now, and accept the fact that I will not see a 5 day turnaround from time of order to my doorstep, nor will I ever expect to call in and get to speak to someone or receive a same day email response.
What I have received from them has been of quality and all the parts are there. No failures of any kind yet (4k+ rounds on a PSA stripped lower, LPK, & auto BCG).
I am not an operator, SME, or professional in any matter relating to the platform - not a dirt clod shooter either. I do trust them enough that I may buy a complete from them at some point just to see how it holds up against my non-off the rack ARs.
I've said it before - Let one of the professionals here that either train, compete or shoot heavy (12k a year) and put them (PSA) to task. Run it just as hard as they would run a Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, ect and let us know how it stacks up and settle this issue.
What was the description of the part when you ordered it?
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/upper-parts/bolt-carrier-groups/m16-bolt-carrier-group.html
It was the basic m-16 auto BCG they had on sale a wk ago @ 129.99.
I wonder who the manufacturer is for this item? FN?
I would imagine the bolt will at the very least, be batch tested.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/upper-parts/bolt-carrier-groups/m16-bolt-carrier-group.html
It was the basic m-16 auto BCG they had on sale a wk ago @ 129.99.
I wonder who the manufacturer is for this item? FN?
I would imagine the bolt will at the very least, be batch tested.
Well, as I showed you it may or may not have a tested bolt, and if it was tested it may be batch or it may be individual.
It seems you will never know if it was tested individually, by batch, or not at all.
I am waiting for my mid-length dissipator upper. I ordered it 2 days before my buddy ordered his upper. My buddy's upper was delivered on Monday. No word on mine yet... WTF??? I better get it before Ocommie ****s everything up!
Justin
KiloSierra
11-16-12, 05:00
I ordered a 16" M4 upper four weeks ago on 10/15/12. Received e-mail on 11/5/12 that upper was being shipped. Upper arrived on 11/12/12. Haven't test fired it due to the minor faux pas of forgetting to order a charging handle when I ordered the bolt carrier and lower parts kit. The bolt carrier and lower parts kit with ALG trigger was ordered on 10/20/12 and was shipped and arrived in just over a week to complete a lower that I picked up locally after I ordered the upper.
Fit and finish on the bolt carrier and upper appears good. Upper receiver fit slightly loose on the lower receiver, but was not any worse then some Colt or Bushmaster factory rifles I've seen. Barrel and bolt were marked as on page four. The PSA sourced lower parts fit fine in the lower with the front takedown pin being a little on the tight side compared to most other's I've seen. The takedown pins both appeared to have a thicker, uneven layer of parkerizing then any of the Colt, CMT/Stag, Bushmaster or DPMS pins I've seen which appears to be the cause of the tight fit. The wear in the parkerizing from assembly and sliding it back and forth appear even and no worse then the wear in every other takedown pin I've seen.
Absolutely nothing you have said has any impact whatsoever on how the weapon will function. Get back to us after you have shot it.
I ordered a 16" M4 upper four weeks ago on 10/15/12. Received e-mail on 11/5/12 that upper was being shipped. Upper arrived on 11/12/12. Haven't test fired it due to the minor faux pas of forgetting to order a charging handle when I ordered the bolt carrier and lower parts kit. The bolt carrier and lower parts kit with ALG trigger was ordered on 10/20/12 and was shipped and arrived in just over a week to complete a lower that I picked up locally after I ordered the upper.
Fit and finish on the bolt carrier and upper appears good. Upper receiver fit slightly loose on the lower receiver, but was not any worse then some Colt or Bushmaster factory rifles I've seen. Barrel and bolt were marked as on page four. The PSA sourced lower parts fit fine in the lower with the front takedown pin being a little on the tight side compared to most other's I've seen. The takedown pins both appeared to have a thicker, uneven layer of parkerizing then any of the Colt, CMT/Stag, Bushmaster or DPMS pins I've seen which appears to be the cause of the tight fit. The wear in the parkerizing from assembly and sliding it back and forth appear even and no worse then the wear in every other takedown pin I've seen.
copenhagen2001
11-16-12, 06:13
Buddy has good luck w/them.
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Five_Point_Five_Six
11-16-12, 06:24
I've had good luck with them over the past month or so that I've been accumulating parts for a build. Their shipping and processing times are a little slow at times, but that can be expected leading up to and as a result of the election.
The LPK I just received was missing the lock washer for the grip, but it wasn't worth contacting them to complain or ask for them to send me one. I have plenty of lock washers laying around.
I finally got the upper and parts for my Dad's build yesterday. It took a month and a half to ship -- I made the order on 9/28, and it got here on 11/15. The product looks very good though... We ordered the upper with the light profile 16" middy made by FN. I was pissed after I read PSA's post in this thread saying their M-16 BCG's might or might not be HPT/MPI and might or might not be marked, because one of their reps told me on the phone that they were all tested that way. I guess I got lucky... the one we got is marked "MP." Everything looks great so far... We will know more after we get it to the range this weekend though.
I am waiting for my mid-length dissipator upper. I ordered it 2 days before my buddy ordered his upper. My buddy's upper was delivered on Monday. No word on mine yet... WTF??? I better get it before Ocommie ****s everything up!
Justin
I got one of their dissy uppers back in July. It's on a psa lower with moe+ grip, ubr stock, spikes battle trigger bad as ambi selector with the rest being misc parts from psa. I have had no problems with it so far. When your upper gets to you, it should be worth the wait.
Here is a reply from Joe Weir from Palmetto State Armory about an inquiry I had about their cold hammer forged barrels they have for sale.
11-03-11
Thanks for the inquiry.
On our FN sourced barrels, FN cuts the profile, installs the M4 barrel extensions, drills the gas ports, cuts and crowns the muzzle, threads the end of the barrel, roll marks the barrel, phosphate coats the barrel, does the high pressure test and Mag particle inspects each one. We do not get FN barrel blanks, we get fully finished barrels from FN.
Let me know if you need any further assistance.
Fuzzy-Reticle
11-16-12, 20:05
I built another PSA rifle. Wanted a coyote rifle so I took a PSA stripped lower and LPK and mated it to a RRA HBAR upper. Have not had a chance to shoot it yet.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/fuzzyreticle/PSA%20A4/IMG_3118.jpg
yossarian42
11-16-12, 23:28
Thinking about getting a psa complete moe lower for my bcm bfh upper.
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This may not be on topic, but I ordered a complete lower kit from PSA last week. Got it today, it has a mil-spec Magpul ACS-L, receiver tube,spring and PSA id'd buffer. ALso came with a MOE hand grip and a PSA lower parts kit. All for 149.00, I felt that was a good deal.
I just put a PSA lpk in my Mega lower. It works, BUT, The takedown pins are pretty gritty as well as the inside of the buffer tube.
It's pretty noisy when you pull the charging handle back. Maybe it'll wear in after time.
cthompson36
11-17-12, 09:44
my pins were gritty and so was my buffer tube. I gave then a light rub with some 4000 grit sandpaper and lifes good now.
KiloSierra
11-21-12, 00:28
Shot my upper 28 rounds today to sight it in. Functioned perfectly with Hornady 55gr. softpoints and Federal 50gr. Ejection was consistent and to the right and slightly behind me with the cases landing in a group around just over a foot around. Groups were around 3" but I was not having a good day.
Word of wisdom for the day:
Make sure the magazine you take to zero a rifle is loaded with the correct ammo and not the first six rounds being correct and the next 22 being entirely different.
MiamiCracker
11-21-12, 11:50
Waiting for the brown truck to show up with my light profile upper. It took 15 working days to build. Ordered Oct 26, shipped out Nov 19
Waiting for the brown truck to show up with my light profile upper. It took 15 working days to build. Ordered Oct 26, shipped out Nov 19
I ordered my 20" upper on Oct 24, and it's still being manufactured, according to the last exchange with Customer Service. One thing about PSA, though, their customer service is awesome.
Code3Patriot
11-21-12, 13:01
I ordered my 20" upper on Oct 24, and it's still being manufactured, according to the last exchange with Customer Service. One thing about PSA, though, their customer service is awesome.
Hang in there, I bought a 16'' upper (only because it was super cheap) on Oct. 25th - and it shipped today. I agree, great CS. I inquired about the status of my order a week ago and they got back to me promptly with a professional email detailing what was happening.
I ordered my 20" upper on Oct 24, and it's still being manufactured, according to the last exchange with Customer Service. One thing about PSA, though, their customer service is awesome.
Hang in there, I bought a 16'' upper (only because it was super cheap) on Oct. 25th - and it shipped today. I agree, great CS. I inquired about the status of my order a week ago and they got back to me promptly with a professional email detailing what was happening.
Wow, I thought that there was some heavy sarcasm in those customer service comments. Evidently someone opened up a can of Whup Ass on the service department.
Moonlight Again
11-21-12, 13:15
Wow, I thought that there was some heavy sarcasm in those customer service comments. Evidently someone opened up a can of Whup Ass on the service department.
That's a good thing.
I like their products and their pricing, and I'd love to see their CS step up.
Wow, I thought that there was some heavy sarcasm in those customer service comments. Evidently someone opened up a can of Whup Ass on the service department.
Definitely no sarcasm about their CS in my post. I even sent them an email after an exchange, commending them on their service, especially in what has to be an insanely hectic time for them.
MiamiCracker
11-21-12, 14:33
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/22/mepe7ahu.jpg
Just got a half hour ago, threw on the MOE handguard already
Well, I just ordered a 16" M4 upper today. Hoping that I get it before Christmas, but we'll have to see.
Chimpanzee
02-18-13, 16:04
Fuzzy-Reticle,
Any update on your PSA rifle after you've shot some round through it? Sorry to dig up an old post, but I searched and haven't found any recent reviews on PSA products. I have a rifle that I've only put about 500 rounds through, but no problems thus far. I'm really wanting to hear from someone who has put thousands of rounds through their PSA and if it is holding up to expectations.
-Chimp
Fuzzy-Reticle
02-18-13, 18:14
I have since sold all of my PSA rifles. Nothing wrong with any of them what so ever. I wanted to purchase other rifles and wife said I had to sell something to help pay for them or find a new wife. :p
I have never had a single issue with any of the rifles or lowers from PSA. I really can't give you an exact round count but it was not thousands of rounds. All together it was something like 2000ish. I ran one very hard heating it up and not letting it cool down and ran some really sketchy wolf and silverbear ammo through it and it kept running. Hardly scientific I know but it worked. Nothing ever worked loose or stopped working. The finish held up great and the trigger was really starting to break in nice.
I wish I would have kept them to me honest but it is what it is.
I would buy a PSA any day of the week based on my experience. I have recommended them to several of my friends and family who have all purchased a PSA before the recent crazy times. All of their rifles are running 100%. None have reached more than 2500 total rounds through them as ammo has become something precious to keep in my family and we now shoot a lot of .22 to stay in shape.
I took a chance on some lower parts, springs and detents, etc. Ill never order from this joke of a company again.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=124308
Chimpanzee
02-18-13, 18:42
t1tan,
in all fairness, that is more with customer service then their actual product. i've heard and read all about their problems getting products shipped out, but again that's not rating their actual product. i live in sc and can go to psa in store and get everything i need, which was a major factor in me going the psa route.
fuzzy-reticle, you're right about the price of ammo. that stuff is like gold. i have some, but am hesitant in shooting at almost a buck a pop. which i could shoot more as i'm chomping at the bit to put this rifle through the paces. all things considered, i'm quite happy with my purchase and one day (if/when the prices level out) i'll join the ranks of colt/bcm/noveske. thanks for the updated report though fuzzy-reticle.
Fuzzy-Reticle
02-18-13, 18:42
I took a chance on some lower parts, springs and detents, etc. Ill never order from this joke of a company again.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=124308
That sucks. I dealt with a local gun store who was great! PSA did send him a marked and inspected bolt for me when I noticed my first rifle did not come with one. I was pleased with that level of service. I can not speak to their current service levels or delays. YMMV.
I still stand by PSA. At the time when I purchased mine they where one of the better deals going in the AR world IMHO. The price for the quality was worth it. :)
I took a chance on some lower parts, springs and detents, etc. Ill never order from this joke of a company again.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=124308
This saddens me; I am waiting for a PSA LPK as we speak...
This saddens me; I am waiting for a PSA LPK as we speak...
I hope for your sake all is 100% with your LPK, I don't want anybody else to have to deal with these people if service is anything like this for others.
I am very satisfied by the customer service I received from PSA. My PSA carbine has served me well during the couple three thousand rounds it's sent downrange.
My brother assembled two PSA carbines, one for his wife. He liked his so much he sold his Colt to a fellow police officer who needed a duty rifle. M brother is also very satisfied with PSA customer service
My LPK's and build kits took a month to get to me, but they were good parts and have given me no problems.
Sent from my iPhone on tapatalk
I've got about 150rds through a new PSA mid length AR. Sometimes my bolt doesn't lock on an empty magazine and I had 1 double feed. I'll probably shoot a few hundred more rounds (and change magazines) and see if it smooths out a bit before I decide if it has a problem. The ammo I've been using LC M193.
WhiskyNiner
02-19-13, 10:01
I bought a PSA stripped lower and an upper from the EE.
I think the lower looked very good quality and the Windham LPK fit real well. All the parts went together easily enough and the various mags all fit and ejected appropriately.
I put a Spikes BCG in the upper. It's done well. The BCM Gunfighter CH, Lg, is a joy to use. Lubed up, charging is smooth and grit-free.
The upper came with the large carbine fore end. 16" FN barrel. Forged front sight. Extended feed ramps. Finish quality was good.
I have only been able to put 200 rounds out of it since I got it all together. The first hundred rounds were all brass and there were no failures of an kind. The second hundred rounds had 20 Tulla and some different magazines. I had the steel ammo in a used steel mag. It caused a bolt lock before the last round was fed. This also happened with brass ammo, and was determined to be caused by a bad follower.
Upper fits well with lower, and has no more wiggle than our M&P15. I have an H buffer in it and it's a joy to shoot so far. I would buy other PSA equipment.
I built a lower out of a stripped PSA receiver and run a Bravo Company upper on it. About 2K rounds through it so far with not so much as a hiccup.
I've got about 150rds through a new PSA mid length AR. Sometimes my bolt doesn't lock on an empty magazine and I had 1 double feed. I'll probably shoot a few hundred more rounds (and change magazines) and see if it smooths out a bit before I decide if it has a problem. The ammo I've been using LC M193.
Probably slightly overgassed. Throw in an H or H2 buffer and see what happens
Sent from my iPhone on tapatalk
I have a 16" mid lenght upper with the FN barrel. At first I put a BCM bcg in but then decided to give the PSA one that came with it a try. I have 1,400 223/556 down the pipe with about 1500-2000 22lr in it with a conversion. I have only had one malfunction were the bolt did not fully seat after chambering the next round. That happened in the first 200 rds. That first 1000 was done with no cleaning and was a mix of wolf, priv, IMI and S&B. I know this is not hard use but I think it a step above several other brands.
It wasn't taking a chance for me with my latest order, I fully expected a MAJOR shipping delay with them ... of course they charge you upfront, and again I expected that.
It appears to me that their LPK's are of good quality and so I ordered one minus the trigger group on 2/1, not a peep yet of course.
Probably slightly overgassed. Throw in an H or H2 buffer and see what happens
Sent from my iPhone on tapatalk
thanks. I'll give that a shot.
I am a little confused, as a bolt not locking open after the last round would be under gassed, not over gassed. (First rule out follower, bolt hold open latch...)
I am a little confused, as a bolt not locking open after the last round would be under gassed, not over gassed. (First rule out follower, bolt hold open latch...)
I had a BCM upper that did this with a standard weight buffer. It also failed to pick up the next round when cycling and instead jammed the bolt, resting it on top of the next round. A quick change to a heavier buffer cleared it right up. Of course, this was after I ruled out the magazines I had been using.
I've got about 150rds through a new PSA mid length AR. Sometimes my bolt doesn't lock on an empty magazine and I had 1 double feed. I'll probably shoot a few hundred more rounds (and change magazines) and see if it smooths out a bit before I decide if it has a problem. The ammo I've been using LC M193.
Probably slightly overgassed. Throw in an H or H2 buffer and see what happens
One of the rules of the internet- when someone has a problem with their AR, somebody else will come along and blame it on over-gassing
I am a little confused, as a bolt not locking open after the last round would be under gassed, not over gassed. (First rule out follower, bolt hold open latch...)
You're not confused at all. The problem is likely due to short stroking.
yz9890, test your rifle with a single round in the mag. Load and fire. Check to see if your bolt locks back. If not, it's possible your rifle is short stroking
It wasn't taking a chance for me with my latest order, I fully expected a MAJOR shipping delay with them ... of course they charge you upfront, and again I expected that.
It appears to me that their LPK's are of good quality and so I ordered one minus the trigger group on 2/1, not a peep yet of course.
I ordered my LPK on the exact same day. Yesterday I called them and said that I wanted my order cancelled because I found another LPK I was going to use. She told me my order was cancelled and I should expect a refund in 7-10 days. 10 minutes later, I get a tracking number saying that my order has shipped and will be here next Tuesday. Coincidence? Probably not.
I ordered my LPK on the exact same day. Yesterday I called them and said that I wanted my order cancelled because I found another LPK I was going to use. She told me my order was cancelled and I should expect a refund in 7-10 days. 10 minutes later, I get a tracking number saying that my order has shipped and will be here next Tuesday. Coincidence? Probably not.
After fling a complaint with the BBB I got a response the same morning they received it(Wednesday), figure if I didn't file I would have never heard back since they deleted all of my Facebook posts for help and blocked me.
snowdog650
02-22-13, 14:57
I ordered my LPK on the exact same day. Yesterday I called them and said that I wanted my order cancelled because I found another LPK I was going to use. She told me my order was cancelled and I should expect a refund in 7-10 days. 10 minutes later, I get a tracking number saying that my order has shipped and will be here next Tuesday. Coincidence? Probably not.
They do the same shit with me. On two occasions I had ordered a LPK from them. Both times, I waited the full 15 business days ... gave them another business day ... and never counted the date of order as a business day (even though order was placed by 9AM EST.
So ... literally ... on the 17th actual business day, I send them a gentle but firm e-mail asking why BCM, Rainier, G&R, Battle Arms ... all these other companies don't have a problem shipping in oftentimes less than a day.
Within 10 minutes of my sending each e-mail, I get a delivery confirmation number.
I think they literally had no idea what orders were out there and need the customers to remind them.
F-ing silly.
I guess I'm not alone, then. A terse email after a month and just like magic my stuff is on the way the next day.
I hope for your sake all is 100% with your LPK, I don't want anybody else to have to deal with these people if service is anything like this for others.
I just received a couple LPKs w/o FCG from PSA and looked them over with a fine toothed comb. everything is there and looks like good quality compared to CMT parts I currently have.
one thing I noticed different is the roll pins are not true roll pins but split pins, similar to what I received from Magpul with a MIAD grip. I suppose this is legit?..
Those pins are fine. Identical (outward appearance) to the BCM and DD pins I have removed.
I clicked on an ad they sent me for a scope, just so I could go see if everything was still out of stock. The only upper they had in stock is the 10.5 inch hammer forged FN barreled upper that I've been jonesing for since before the crazy started. I used to have a spare BCG, now I have a spare 10.5 upper. Awesome. I just sent in a dog-choking stack of form 1's, so by the time I get home I'll have a dedicated lower for it, as well. This is my happy face.
My prior experience with PSA started in Nov 2011 and the 5 orders for ammo went into June 2012. All GTG. Nov 7 2012 I ordered an M-16 MPI bolt carrier group, a complete upper receiver and a 5.56 CHF mid-length barrel. I received the order on Nov 20. The barrel looked good, the bolt carrier group looked good but had no markings to reflect MPI, and the upper was missing the port door, pin, spring and clip.
The next day I called customer service and talked to Adam. He acted concerned and said the mix up on the bolt could happen because they are next to each other on the parts shelf and he would ship out a proper MPI bolt group and the missing port door parts ASAP along with a return label for the wrong bolt group.
About Dec 3rd I started calling to find out what was going on. I continued to try to get through to PSA for about a week calling daily about 5 or 6 times. I just didn't want to try explaining the situation in an e-mail. After a few more call attempts the following week I said screw this and decided that I was not going to get any where because the mad rush had started somewhere in the middle of that calling process.
The barrel headspaced ok with a colt bolt I had in the spares box. So I mated it up to the upper along with the barrel nut that came with the Midwest Ind. SS gen 2 rail and all went together with no issues.
The problem with unmarked bolts from PSA, in my mind, is they also offer non MPI bolts and 8620 bolts sooooo! who knows what I got. I decided to put the bolt in my spares and move on. The price on the bolt group was not cheap ( $144.95) but the upper and barrel were reasonable and the M-16 carrier was good.
My take on PSA leaves me with that Botach feeling and not worth the trouble over a few dollars.
kantstudien
02-23-13, 14:46
Ordered a dozen mags over a month ago because they specifically stated "in stock" (with specific quantities) on the website.
Five weeks pass and I email them to inquire about the status. Received an auto-reply saying they are extremely busy and would answer my email soon.
One week later I receive an email that they can't find the magazines anywhere in their warehouse so they were going to cancel my order.
Sweet deal, I love floating interest-free loans to people :rolleyes:
I'll PASS on PSA from now on. BCM doesn't seem to have a problem shipping ANYTHING out the very NEXT BUSINESS DAY despite overwhelming demand. And they don't sell stuff they don't have in stock. Smart folks.
I guess I'm somewhat lucky because the only problem I've had with PSA is the extremely slow shipping. I've noticed that the more expensive your order, the quicker they seem to ship. Shitty business practice if you ask me, it should be FIFO. I've received a few orders out of order, and they were received from highest dollar to lowest. Coincidence??? I don't know... Doesn't seem like it. I've never gotten wrong parts in an LPK, had orders cancelled, and ammo has always been well packed and all accounted for. Whenever I order from them, I just pretend like I'm back-ordering and imagine that it will take a few months. It's less disappointing that way.
Couple of mag orders went thru fine. I can understand the slow shipping, its not like their is a shortage of parts and a rush of parts or anything. :rolleyes: Just ordered a complete lpk. Im sure it will get here soon and be complete.
Couple of mag orders went thru fine. I can understand the slow shipping, its not like their is a shortage of parts and a rush of parts or anything. :rolleyes: Just ordered a complete lpk. Im sure it will get here soon and be complete.
Hmmmm... Good luck with that one... My last LPK from PSA took two months to get here...
I purchased a Black Friday M4 CAR style upper from them. Exactly three weeks from my order time I received an email telling me that my upper had shipped. Three days later it was in my hands. The quality is good. The price was great. Slapped it on a lower that I had, and it shoots far better than I do.
ohiorifleman
02-23-13, 20:18
Well now I can say I am 15 and 1 with PSA- an order showed up Friday that was supposed to contain a LPK sans FCG and some .22 WMR ammo- but no ammo in the box, we'll see how long it takes them to return an email for the missing 40.00 in merchandise.
PSA needs to narrow it's focus. They seem to have stretched themselves way to thin. I tried several times to contact them with questions about my order and didn't hear anything from them until a friend told me to contact them in their industry thread on AR15.com. they answer questions there but not directly. that makes zero sense. good product. terrible communication.
I purchased a Black Friday M4 CAR style upper from them. Exactly three weeks from my order time I received an email telling me that my upper had shipped. Three days later it was in my hands. The quality is good. The price was great. Slapped it on a lower that I had, and it shoots far better than I do.
Same, especially when it is basically a $200 complete upper with FN barrel.
The orders I've had with them took a while to receive, but not longer than they had warned. I got a "mil spec" bolt from them for $36, shipped in an acceptable time given the 15 day warning.
This is different, obviously, from BCM where I order something one day, it ships the next, and i get it 3 days after that. The only exception was an upper I just got, but that was because they had to call me to confirm my address (called at freakin 5:30 AM). The other end of the spectrum is Mako, who has gone well past the 21 day delay to ship my order, but Ill be getting it soon so whatever.
So IMO/IME PSA does fine. Could do better, could do infinitely worse.
AR Newby AZ
02-23-13, 23:20
Ordered a dozen mags over a month ago because they specifically stated "in stock" (with specific quantities) on the website.
Five weeks pass and I email them to inquire about the status. Received an auto-reply saying they are extremely busy and would answer my email soon.
One week later I receive an email that they can't find the magazines anywhere in their warehouse so they were going to cancel my order.
Sweet deal, I love floating interest-free loans to people :rolleyes:
I'll PASS on PSA from now on. BCM doesn't seem to have a problem shipping ANYTHING out the very NEXT BUSINESS DAY despite overwhelming demand. And they don't sell stuff they don't have in stock. Smart folks.
They did the same thing with me. I ordered 500 rounds of .223 and they only shipped 300 rounds. The Sandy shooting happened while my order was still pending. I called them and said they have zero .223 rounds in stock and would have to refunds my money. I asked if they can hold on to my money and ship 200 rounds of anything that's brass when it becomes available. They said they can't. Shitty they can't make a simple exception to a customer. Instead they lost a future customer.
...good product. terrible communication.
I agree. I needed to contact them about a problem I had with my upper. Could not get through by phone or email. I sent them a PM on this site and they responded immediately. They did take the time to call me on their own initiative so I could talk to their armorer directly
ChrisCross
02-25-13, 18:11
I had 3 separate orders I made with PSA on 1/19, 1/22 and 1/23 (all items were In Stock). I received the shipping notice EXACTLY on the 15th business day after each order. All the orders we correct and they did ship on the last day they said they would so no complaints...
During that time I have done business with LaRue, BCM and others that have taken 1-3 days to ship in stock items.
I think that PSA has bitten off a little more then they can handle. Would I do business with PSA again, of course. Would I do business with others all things equal, definitely.
mastiffhound
02-25-13, 18:43
When I ordered my 20" FN barreled upper from PSA I also ordered a complete A2 buttstock assembly. It was the opposite of most expensive items first. Buttstock arrived first(?) then the upper. This was last summer in June.
My order for everything was supposed to take 15 business days. The stock came at 8 days, the upper at 12. I think they have a growth problem. They are growing too fast and can't keep up. That was in June. The current panic makes it much harder to damn near impossible I'm sure. I will still buy from them when I can't get a certain item from BCM. The only reason I went with PSA was they had 20" Gov profile uppers in stock, I waited for 3 months for BCM to get some in but no dice.
I would and have recommended them to others. I always tell them be prepared to wait though. If they could hire some skilled AR smiths/builders and this panic would subside then I think they could become a great company. PSA is not BCM, Colt, Noveske, or some of the other top tier or next to top tier manufacturers. Their prices and build quality are much better than Bushy, DPMS, and all of the other bottom tier AR builders. Right now they are somewhere in the middle with quality and one of the best as far as price. A little more QC, more builders, and a greater attention to detail and we could have a very nice "extra" option when searching for something that other companies don't have. I do miss my weekly emails about bolts, BCG's, uppers, lowers, and the many other goodies that they used to have on sale all the time.:smile:
I ordered one of PSA's Magpul ACS-L build kits on 1/31. I received it today, and assembled the lower this evening. Everything went together well, all the parts were there, and the trigger isn't half bad. Just be prepared to wait when you order.
just put about 400 rounds down range today with my PSA mock dissipator. Pretty uneventful, except a couple times my spikes battle trigger got extremely stiff for a shot. It is normally smooth as can be and very consistent. Twice at the end of the trip I went to pull the trigger and thought it was jammed, but it was just very stiff. Immediately following both occurrences it was back to normal. any ideas on this? I did shoot two mags of wolf just before it happened, could that of fouled up my trigger or something? When I got home I looked at the FCG closely and it was absolutely filthy. i have it cleaned up and finally froglubed everything and the trigger feels smooth as glass as always.
flyfishnevada
03-30-13, 18:47
I ordered 6 boxes of .223 Fiocchi brass at .60/rd. about three weeks back. Not bad for quality brass, I suppose. I had it in my hands a week later. Shipping was fast and only $7. Midway wanted to ship a single brick of 525 .22s. for $19 :rolleyes:
I'm sure a lot of these smaller stores have real issues with the volume and the turnover of product. Even so, they had the ammo in stock as they said and delivered it fast and cheap. Can't complain. Maybe I got lucky.
SSGGunBunny
05-15-13, 00:11
I got a deal on a brand new PSA-15 two weeks ago, visual inspection looked good with the naked eye. I took it to my range, zero'd her irons and an eotech, I shot about 80 rounds at 250 to 500 meter steel targets and then ran about 600 rounds through her in two days on a live fire obstacle course we set up and in some reflexive fire drills, I have no complaints. So far, she seems as good as all the other M4 variants that I have shot. I would have shot a bunch more but ammo prices are up and hard to find without being gouged.
New here, not to ARs. My PSA has approx 22,000 rounds through her, not a problem. It's by far my favorite AR in my arsenal at the time. With that said, I have not owned a Colt, or DD. Great forum;)
mastiffhound
08-03-13, 19:51
New here, not to ARs. My PSA has approx 22,000 rounds through her, not a problem. It's by far my favorite AR in my arsenal at the time. With that said, I have not owned a Colt, or DD. Great forum;)
Where on earth did you find 22,000 rounds of .223, that's probably more than all the Walmarts in the U.S. have their current stock?
HackerF15E
08-03-13, 21:19
New here, not to ARs. My PSA has approx 22,000 rounds through her, not a problem. It's by far my favorite AR in my arsenal at the time. With that said, I have not owned a Colt, or DD. Great forum;)
What length/gas/etc?
22K is a pretty good amount of ammo -- what kind of barrel, and how's the accuracy at 22K rounds?
Its the heavy, SS barrel. Accuracy is average, 2-3" at 100 yards with a budget minded Sightmark, and vortex 3x magnifier. As far as amm, most is the WWB that I have been buying for the last 8 years. I'm well stocked :cool:
sinlessorrow
08-03-13, 22:28
Its the heavy, SS barrel. Accuracy is average, 2-3" at 100 yards with a budget minded Sightmark, and vortex 3x magnifier. As far as amm, most is the WWB that I have been buying for the last 8 years. I'm well stocked :cool:
What parts did you replace, and over what length of time did this take?
What parts did you replace, and over what length of time did this take?
I replaced the extractor, and extractor spring at approx 14000, ejector spring was changed at approx 18000. Bolt at 10000 just as preventative maint. I don't run my gun at more than about 10-12 rds a minute, to help prevent wear. Gas rings about every 6000.
I have not replaced the Buffer Spring, or FCG at all, but I know I should.
mastiffhound
08-03-13, 23:51
I replaced the extractor, and extractor spring at approx 14000, ejector spring was changed at approx 18000. Bolt at 10000 just as preventative maint. I don't run my gun at more than about 10-12 rds a minute, to help prevent wear. Gas rings about every 6000.
I have not replaced the Buffer Spring, or FCG at all, but I know I should.
Are you still using the original firing pin?
Its the heavy, SS barrel. Accuracy is average, 2-3" at 100 yards with a budget minded Sightmark, and vortex 3x magnifier. As far as amm, most is the WWB that I have been buying for the last 8 years. I'm well stocked :cool:
You sir, are my hero! Wish I could shoot as much as you, or even just have 22k of ammo to shoot.
I should have clarified, I replaced the BCG at 10-18k, which comes with a new firing pin, extractor spring, ect. I get my BCG's from BCM
I have Colt, Noveske, and BCM rifles, but when I started thinking about getting my girl into ARs, and not knowing if she would take to it or not, I decided to not invest a lot up front. I already had a $49 lower from years ago in the safe, and PSA put their complete M4 uppers on sale for $399, well it was hard to pass. I was not expecting the world, and I know she will only shoot it a handful of times a year, no matter how much she likes it, so I wasn't worried. Fit and finish are fine, gas staking was there, although not the best I've seen. After assembly we put a few hundred rounds through it without issue. Going to put it thru some more work this coming week, and see how it goes, but so far I think it suits our needs just fine.
No. HPT/MPI does nothing to improve or control quality. It can only assure that the quality control processes are correct and were correctly followed. HPT (High Pressure Testing) actually reduces the life of the bolt. Once the quality control processes are proven and in control (control means it gives the same results every time), HPT/MPI are no longer needed.
However, shot peening actually relieves stress and increases bolt life. It is more important than HPT/MPI
Can anyone prove this to be a false statement?
ForTehNguyen
08-06-13, 21:33
Can anyone prove this to be a false statement?
r_silvers has posted about this here and has said similar things. He R&Ds at AAC
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81215
To think $49 for a lower back in the day now people are happy with $100 lowers. Just like they are ok with $4 gas
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD so lay off the spelling critique. Thanks
I do admit to replacing it last week with PSA's offer of a lower and lpk for $99....
sinlessorrow
08-07-13, 00:52
r_silvers has posted about this here and has said similar things. He R&Ds at AAC
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81215
KevinB and III have also talked about it here, the KAC E3 bolt is not HPT either.
Personally I have no issue with batch testing, its worked in the auto industry for how long now? It also has a high chance of if one passes all will.
KevinB and III have also talked about it here, the KAC E3 bolt is not HPT either.
Personally I have no issue with batch testing, its worked in the auto industry for how long now? It also has a high chance of if one passes all will.
The main issue that I see with batch testing is "how large is the batch?"
You can test one per year and claim that you do batch testing.
I am more inclined to trust the manufacturer. If KAC is comfortable with batch testing their bolts, then that is fine with me.
Some other manufacturers, I'm not as willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
r_silvers has posted about this here and has said similar things. He R&Ds at AAC
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81215
Very interesting, thank you.
Post # 284 from that thread.
HPT is a waste of time and money. It also reduces the life of the bolt. I have stated this analogy before but it is like wrecking a new car into a brick wall and inspecting the frame for cracks. It is an archaic process . The government and industry should do away with it and come up with more productive forms of standardized acceptance /quality control . MPI bolts every 5000 or so rounds would be much more productive. I got news for you guys bolts crack then they break. There is sometimes no way of telling how long a bolt will go after it cracks before it fails. Many of the bolts in your trusted guns out there are cracked.
After reading that entire thread (took some time and some of it was over my head), it seems it would be best to HPT/MPI every 100 or so, discard the tested one and go with that...
Still I didn't see any real "proof" that HPT reduced bolt life. No test of say 10 bolts that were HPT and 10 that were not from the same batch and both sets MPI tested every 1k rounds or so...
ForTehNguyen
08-10-13, 09:50
Very interesting, thank you.
Post # 284 from that thread.
After reading that entire thread (took some time and some of it was over my head), it seems it would be best to HPT/MPI every 100 or so, discard the tested one and go with that...
Still I didn't see any real "proof" that HPT reduced bolt life. No test of say 10 bolts that were HPT and 10 that were not from the same batch and both sets MPI tested every 1k rounds or so...
According to silvers, if you take a bolt with a couple thousand rounds through it, it wont pass MPI but it still has a lot of life out of it. Also an extremely small number of bolts fail MPI so if pretty much all bolts pass a test, what value is the test?
Can anyone prove this to be a false statement?
I think it's a very true statement.
Why take something and stress it way past the operating pressure?
Buy a new car and rev the engine to 8,000 RPM so you know that it'll run 3,000 for long time?
If the part doesn't fail during testing there will be a great chance it will not break when put into service.There is a reason for the test and lots of excuses for not doing the tests.
HackerF15E
11-28-13, 12:19
I replaced the extractor, and extractor spring at approx 14000, ejector spring was changed at approx 18000. Bolt at 10000 just as preventative maint. I don't run my gun at more than about 10-12 rds a minute, to help prevent wear. Gas rings about every 6000.
I have not replaced the Buffer Spring, or FCG at all, but I know I should.
I'd love to see some photos of your rifle if you are game. You still have the highest "round count" PSA that I've seen discussed.
Wow. I wish I had the cheddar to shoot 22,000 rounds of ammo. The most rounds I ever fired was about 15,000 rounds through my Colt Hbar, and that took about 17 years to do. I have about 3,000 rounds out of my 6940, about 2,300 through a LWRC and about 500 rounds out of my PSA ps15. Notice the round count getting less? I ran out of cheddar.
HackerF15E
11-28-13, 16:02
Wow. I wish I had the cheddar to shoot 22,000 rounds of ammo.
The comparison between the cost of the rifle and the cost of the ammo sent through it is pretty funny to think about.
The debates that take place on this forum and others about the comparative qualities of rifles cover a pretty narrow span of costs (the $700-$2500 range) compared to the cost of shooting this amount of ammo. What was spent on a PSA compared to what would have been spent on a Colt or a BCM/DD/LMT/etc are sort of a pittance when taken in that context.
Fuzzy-Reticle
11-29-13, 23:22
I ordered another PSA M4 upper yesterday. What the hell for $294 complete with fullauto bolt and carrier. Add a $49 stripped lower and I got another spare rifle to beat the hell out of. Looking forward to running it hard and see what happens.
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-30-13, 08:04
I ordered another PSA M4 upper yesterday. What the hell for $294 complete with fullauto bolt and carrier. Add a $49 stripped lower and I got another spare rifle to beat the hell out of. Looking forward to running it hard and see what happens.
I couldn't pass those prices up either and ordered everything I needed to build another rifle. The rifle I built last year from 90% PSA parts hasn't skipped a beat.
HackerF15E
11-30-13, 09:10
I ordered another PSA M4 upper yesterday. What the hell for $294 complete with fullauto bolt and carrier. Add a $49 stripped lower and I got another spare rifle to beat the hell out of. Looking forward to running it hard and see what happens.
Please follow up on how it shoots -- I was curious what kind of quality the PTAC stuff could be for that kind of price.
It would be fun to take something like that and thrash it in a carbine course.
My experience with PSA, well, I buy stuff from them infrequently after my first purchase a couple years ago. At that time I bought a package stock deal that included a Magpul CTR, a spring, buffer, castle nut, and receiver extension tube. The only piece I still use is the stock.
This is because the receiver extension tube had very poor threading which made it impossible to fit a Noveske QD end plate. The threading was too short and incomplete. This made me suspicious about the quality of the other parts and so I decided to simply put them in my seconds parts bin.
This meant that I had to buy a another receiver extension, so I bought a LMT tube for $40. This negated ANY savings by buying from PSA.
RECENTLY, earlier this year, it was nearing the end of the GREAT OBAMA PANIC and someone sent along a PSA deal for a "Premium BCG". At the time I thought it was a good idea to have a complete spare, so I bought it (I think it was something like $160). When I received it I took a quick look at it and put it in a parts bin.
FAST FORWARD to this week. I had a nice quiet week to do some projects. I realized I had enough spare parts and got the idea that I wanted to turn part of my spare parts stash into a complete second tier rifle, just for fun.
I took the PSA BCG completely apart so I could headspace the upper. I was surprised that the ejector pin had corrosion, in fact the CLP I used gave me a rust brown spot on a patch. I store my parts in my home and we have no humidity where I live. Upon further inspection the ejector pin was poorly machined in the retaining pin cut out. Rough machining, I mean rough. Sorry I don't have pics. The rest of the BCG looked very good however, but I have replaced the ejector pin.
These kinds of problems give me pause. I have never seen any issues with anything I've purchased from BCM (2 complete uppers, a complete lower and 6 BCGs, And lots of parts). So for me, it is worth the extra $20-40 to get a KNOWN quantity. I guess I could have contacted PSA and so on, but the ejector is such a small part that it wasn't worth my time.
But what would happen if the ejector failed in an HD situation, who knows, but it is not worth the savings to me to feel that I have to worry about the critical parts I buy. Now, I don't buy much from PSA, and when I do I only buy quality brand name parts from PSA.
Fuzzy-Reticle
11-30-13, 12:07
No doubt it is hit and miss with PSA and as a general observation the complete rifles that I have owned work fine and have seen some decent amount of use. They are decent enough for my purposes and I don't expect them to be something they are not. I do not expect Noveske or Larue quality and I do not pay similar prices. When I want those type of firearms I purchase them. I personally have not been disappointed in PSA but again I keep my expectations realistic when I buy PSA. Starting a small company from scratch takes balls. PSA has had its fair share of growing pains but they are learning and seem to be getting better. I say good for them for doing what they do and as long as they make good on their mistakes I can't find fault with them. They charge a fair price for a product that is in demand and by all appearances they do pretty good in a crowded market.
No doubt it is hit and miss with PSA and as a general observation the complete rifles that I have owned work fine and have seen some decent amount of use. They are decent enough for my purposes and I don't expect them to be something they are not. I do not expect Noveske or Larue quality and I do not pay similar prices. When I want those type of firearms I purchase them. I personally have not been disappointed in PSA but again I keep my expectations realistic when I buy PSA. Starting a small company from scratch takes balls. PSA has had its fair share of growing pains but they are learning and seem to be getting better. I say good for them for doing what they do and as long as they make good on their mistakes I can't find fault with them. They charge a fair price for a product that is in demand and by all appearances they do pretty good in a crowded market.
I cannot speak for the many satisfied PSA customers, I only speak for myself. If you are happy with your PSA stuff fine, I'm just pointing out that there is a possibility that the QC isn't all that. AND that the concept of "false economy" could be a result.
I'd rather not spend money twice the get the result I expect. AND I believe that some companies, especially BCM, have hit the price/performance/quality nail on the head. I also believe there is a lot of hype around PSA.
Again, I cannot speak to your expectations and experiences VS. mine. I can only speak for myself.
Fuzzy-Reticle
11-30-13, 12:57
Good point. I also subscribe to the buy once cry once school of thought. My point is just that if a price is too good to be true it probably is. There will probably be some baggage with budget parts but if you are willing to work through that a guy should come out OK in the end. I buy plenty from BCM and colt and have not been disappointed in any way. I got a PSA rifle from a local shop once and the bolt was not marked as inspected. The dealer and PSA made it right. I can not argue that. Should it have come with the correct part? I can't say. It was off the shelf so I had only my preconceived notions of what it should have been. I have not purchased any parts from PSA directly before so I will see how it turns out. I have purchased a couple of lpks from the same dealer and they were standard milspec parts that continue to work as advertised. If the PTAC upper I ordered is a dog I will deal with it or sell it or give it to my son. No big deal. PSA still beats many of the garbage rifles I have seen in the market over the last few years. YMMV.
HackerF15E
11-30-13, 13:24
As came up in the other thread about the receiver extension material, I think the "weak link" with PSA is simply that they're not explicitly up-front with their different levels of materials quality. Ultimately, they have at least 3 tiers of quality (milspec/top-of-line, consumer grade, and budget) and it is mostly up to the customer to wade through PSA's wording and descriptions to sort out which is which. I think, unfortunately, PSA has created a minefield for themselves that may end up blowing up their reputation in the long term.
Palmetto has at least plainly labeled their low-budget line of products as "PTAC" -- I think this is a great start, so long as consumers make themselves aware of what PTAC is what what the quality/limitations of that line of products offers.
If they would only be consistent on what their "premium" line was, they would help themselves out quite a bit. Even their "premium" M4 kits seem to be including some "non-premium" parts, like the 6061 "mil-spec diameter" receiver extensions instead of the 7075 tubes that they have and sell separately. Or, sometimes the "premium" uppers with the FN-made CMV barrels are paired up with bolts that aren't the MPI/HPT C158 bundles of premium goodness.
Earlier this year during the panic they hurt their reputation in selling what seemed to be lesser quality bolts and BCGs (the supposedly "MIM gas key" bolts), which many folks assumed were the same high quality BCGs they'd been selling before. PSA had to post on the forums an explanation that there was a difference between their "PSA branded" BCGs and these BCGs they were selling at that time. It certainly made people question their motives and quality by not just being explicit about which was which. Some clear labeling would have saved them some heartache IMHO.
I don't see it as PSA being deliberately untruthful or trying to deceive anyone, but it definitely requires the consumer to know what they're buying in order to ensure they are legitimately getting a good deal or a bargain. I think the PTAC stuff may ultimately end up doing continuing damage to PSA's reputation.
PSA is still fairly new to the AR game, and although they are becoming more popular, they still have a long way to go. They would benefit to improved their CS/QC, and also improve the clarity of the packages they offer, as it does get confusing sometimes with the complete upper or rifles they sell.
It seems much of their focus is on the savings/budget minded consumers. I've noticed in the last couple of years too that they have the 3-tiers when it comes to the quality of parts, with the PTAC being at the bottom. I've owned only 2 PSA upper's in the past; a Middy 5.56 and a 300BLK w/ MI rails. No issues with either one.
Rainier Arms and PSA bcg both cost $109. Both will be replaced if you have an issue. Both are milspec, proper, except the cs springs in the rainier.
I have bought several products from them and have been more then happy. I have twice now bougt a package the ran with a vortex strikefire and premium BCG for 200. That is a steal. All of my bolts have been mpi tested and carpenter 158. But like others have said, you really have to read the fin print. If the upper does not say it is made with and FN barrel, I will not buy it. I have bought several blemished lowers from them (some for as low as 49.95) and I am more then happy. There LPK seem to b on par with other budget LPK. Personally I prefer the DD LPK. Their triggers are ok. I have already upgraded one to a geissle and will probably throw in an alg defense in the other lowers I have built. If I find any issues with the BCG over time they will be replaced with bcm.
They last AR I put together by them was a 410 SS chf 16" middy upper with FN barrel. I used a blemished lower with their LPK. Replaced the trigger with geissle, mounted on a UBR stock, shaved down the front sight and put on a MI ss15 gen 2 rail. Made a real nice gun for around 1200 and really the only things on it from PSA is the BCG, receivers, and a few pins and springs. In my opinion, a much nicer rifle then what I can get off the shelf for 1200
Earlier this year during the panic they hurt their reputation in selling what seemed to be lesser quality bolts and BCGs (the supposedly "MIM gas key" bolts), which many folks assumed were the same high quality BCGs they'd been selling before. PSA had to post on the forums an explanation that there was a difference between their "PSA branded" BCGs and these BCGs they were selling at that time. It certainly made people question their motives and quality by not just being explicit about which was which. Some clear labeling would have saved them some heartache IMHO.
I don't see it as PSA being deliberately untruthful or trying to deceive anyone, but it definitely requires the consumer to know what they're buying in order to ensure they are legitimately getting a good deal or a bargain. I think the PTAC stuff may ultimately end up doing continuing damage to PSA's reputation.
Part of the problem with those bolt carriers (which I bought one), was they were labeled "made in USA."
The gas key bolts were made by FYS, which is fang screw company, a company out of taiwan.
Being labeled "made in the USA", I thought I was buying a bcg that was made from all USA parts.
The only bolt carrier I will ever buy from PSA again is the premium bcg with their logo on it. If I buy anything less who knows where the parts might come from. I feel that I was misled by PSA in the wording of the bcg they were selling. The bcg may have been made in USA, as in assembled here, but some of the parts were made by a foreign company.
I bought a m4 psa upper for my wifes build and it has worked out nicely.
Part of the problem with those bolt carriers (which I bought one), was they were labeled "made in USA."
The gas key bolts were made by FYS, which is fang screw company, a company out of taiwan.
Being labeled "made in the USA", I thought I was buying a bcg that was made from all USA parts.
The only bolt carrier I will ever buy from PSA again is the premium bcg with their logo on it. If I buy anything less who knows where the parts might come from. I feel that I was misled by PSA in the wording of the bcg they were selling. The bcg may have been made in USA, as in assembled here, but some of the parts were made by a foreign company.
I bought a m4 psa upper for my wifes build and it has worked out nicely.
That sucks to hear about the non-USA made PSA bolts/carriers. I bet this happend not just with them during the panic.
I bought an off-the-shelf BCG back in March during the panic (in March '13 from a gunshow unfortunately) for $160 which was super cheap at the time. Proved to be cheaply made indeed; I had lots of failures within the first 100rds of using that bcg.
PSA should be back to its normal USA-made parts now hopefully.
I bought a PSA "premium" bcg. Staking was total joke and the firing pin and pin retainer was missing. Shipped it back. The pin and retainer was replaced but wasn't restaked.... After a few emails and phone calls I was told "its OK". I will not run it. Ever.
HackerF15E
12-03-13, 08:15
I bought a PSA "premium" bcg. Staking was total joke and the firing pin and pin retainer was missing. Shipped it back. The pin and retainer was replaced but wasn't restaked.... After a few emails and phone calls I was told "its OK". I will not run it. Ever.
Your experience and opinion is precisely what puts PSA's reputation at risk.
Compare that with the "branded" PSA BCG that I bought in '11, which if it weren't for the markings, looks exactly the same as my Colt 6920 BCG down to every last detail. The inconsistency just makes the consumer confidence fall like crazy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/b5d939c1-70b3-4c79-8d57-1ed748f519ad_zpscfb641f6.jpg
I'm a happy PSA customer...but mostly because everything I've purchased has met my expectations of what was advertised and what I thought it would be. If I had the experiences that some of you on this forum and others have posted, I think I'd be a much more skeptical PSA customer.
I concur with Hacker. I had a 300BLK PSA upper last year with the premium BCG and it looks like the one you have up there. I think they were cutting corners (obviously) during the panic and many might still be presenty receiving the lower quality parts.
I was fortunate to buy one of their M16 Blem BCG's 2 months ago for $99 with their free shipping deal. Quality is very good, the only thing its missing is that the bolt is only marked MPI and there's no PSA logo on the carrier. Works 100% with all types of ammo so far including crappy Tula223 in Spikes Midlength.
PSA is still fairly new to the AR game, and although they are becoming more popular, they still have a long way to go. They would benefit to improved their CS/QC, and also improve the clarity of the packages they offer, as it does get confusing sometimes with the complete upper or rifles they sell.
It seems much of their focus is on the savings/budget minded consumers. I've noticed in the last couple of years too that they have the 3-tiers when it comes to the quality of parts, with the PTAC being at the bottom. I've owned only 2 PSA upper's in the past; a Middy 5.56 and a 300BLK w/ MI rails. No issues with either one.
This is exactly why I will not buy PSA unless it is brand name (Magpul, or some known quantity). This is because I do not know where the parts are sourced in any given purchase. I will pay extra for a BCM BCG because they have a very strong track record, and it is worth knowing that the most critical component, the BCG, is one of the best.
As for other parts PSA sells I had a problem as I explained earlier. And will not buy any of their no-name or PSA branded parts.
If you like your PSA you can keep it, period.
Your experience and opinion is precisely what puts PSA's reputation at risk.
Compare that with the "branded" PSA BCG that I bought in '11, which if it weren't for the markings, looks exactly the same as my Colt 6920 BCG down to every last detail. The inconsistency just makes the consumer confidence fall like crazy.
I'm a happy PSA customer...but mostly because everything I've purchased has met my expectations of what was advertised and what I thought it would be. If I had the experiences that some of you on this forum and others have posted, I think I'd be a much more skeptical PSA customer.
You know, of course, that two BCGs can look identical on the outside and not be of the same quality.
As came up in the other thread about the receiver extension material, I think the "weak link" with PSA is simply that they're not explicitly up-front with their different levels of materials quality. Ultimately, they have at least 3 tiers of quality (milspec/top-of-line, consumer grade, and budget) and it is mostly up to the customer to wade through PSA's wording and descriptions to sort out which is which. I think, unfortunately, PSA has created a minefield for themselves that may end up blowing up their reputation in the long term.
Palmetto has at least plainly labeled their low-budget line of products as "PTAC" -- I think this is a great start, so long as consumers make themselves aware of what PTAC is what what the quality/limitations of that line of products offers.
If they would only be consistent on what their "premium" line was, they would help themselves out quite a bit. Even their "premium" M4 kits seem to be including some "non-premium" parts, like the 6061 "mil-spec diameter" receiver extensions instead of the 7075 tubes that they have and sell separately. Or, sometimes the "premium" uppers with the FN-made CMV barrels are paired up with bolts that aren't the MPI/HPT C158 bundles of premium goodness.
Earlier this year during the panic they hurt their reputation in selling what seemed to be lesser quality bolts and BCGs (the supposedly "MIM gas key" bolts), which many folks assumed were the same high quality BCGs they'd been selling before. PSA had to post on the forums an explanation that there was a difference between their "PSA branded" BCGs and these BCGs they were selling at that time. It certainly made people question their motives and quality by not just being explicit about which was which. Some clear labeling would have saved them some heartache IMHO.
I don't see it as PSA being deliberately untruthful or trying to deceive anyone, but it definitely requires the consumer to know what they're buying in order to ensure they are legitimately getting a good deal or a bargain. I think the PTAC stuff may ultimately end up doing continuing damage to PSA's reputation.
Exactly, but it goes deeper. On another forum a PSA customer was advised to check the headspace by another forum poster once he received his order. The customer did not have a headspace gauge so he called PSA and asked them to check the headspace on the upper he bought from them with the bolt he bought from them before shipping it to him. According to the poster/customer PSA's reply was that the BCG and Upper come from different warehouses (implying they could not do it) and that it would be OK because they were both milspec pieces.
Given the somewhat muddy picture regarding PSA parts sourcing, that was the wrong answer.
Look, I'm not trying to tear PSA apart, I'm just pointing out that they've gotten ahead of themselves. They need to step back and look at what they are doing or they will ruin their reputation. I see so many people just foaming at the mouth about PSA. But in most instances they don't really know what they are getting because there is no REAL track record of consistency.
HackerF15E
12-05-13, 14:00
You know, of course, that two BCGs can look identical on the outside and not be of the same quality.
Of course...the Palmetto BCG that was offered in '11 (the one in the photo) was the full HPT/MPI/shot peened/etc deal. It was when PSA seemed to be trying to provide high quality parts at budget prices and offering very little that wasn't top-of-the line kind of parts. When they weren't top of the line, they were very up front about it by specifically labeling that it was a 4140 vs 4150 barrel, etc.
There didn't seem to be the "errors of omission" on their part by stating the specs on high quality parts and implying -- but not outright stating -- that the other associated parts were not of quality. I bought one of the 4140 14.5" M4 uppers (Wilson barrel), and they were pretty explicit that it had single heat shield handguards, etc. It was listed right next to the "premium" M4 upper, which was a 4150 barrel and had dual heat shield guards and cost $100 more (IIRC one was $399 and the other was $499).
Concur with your other statements -- the waters are getting muddy and their corporate reputation is the only thing that is going to suffer as a result.
I agree as well.
I have sold both my PSA uppers, although there was nothing wrong with them. I still buy some ammo and small parts from them, but they definitely need to improve on a few things including CS and consistency of their AR parts.
I don't have a problem buying mags/ammo/accessories from them because you know they don't make those anyway.
thebarracuda
12-05-13, 16:25
By with confidence from PSA, if you tested well in reading comprehension. They now have so many configurations, some being legit quality products, and some that are cheaper... in every way. Just makes me nervous. However, my experience with PSA premium middy upper running BCM bcg has been good, though it is a low round count.
Flankenstein
12-05-13, 16:39
I bought a PSA "premium" bcg. Staking was total joke and the firing pin and pin retainer was missing. Shipped it back. The pin and retainer was replaced but wasn't restaked.... After a few emails and phone calls I was told "its OK". I will not run it. Ever.
This happened to me...
TWICE...
Ended up just returning it and now avoid PSA like the plague...
scoutchris
12-05-13, 17:33
This thread is ****ing dead. Enough.
PA PATRIOT
12-05-13, 17:44
This thread is ****ing dead. Enough.
Why?
PSA continues to sell products which members on this forum buy and evaluate and then post those results, also by relating their contact experiences with PSA's customer service we get to see if this company is on par with other reputable retailers on the internet or not.
Side note on a bcg. I just got a leitner wise black nitrate bcg in the mail. It is one really pretty bit of kit. The quality of what you get for $169 seems worth the premium over the psa bcg.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.
Side note on a bcg. I just got a leitner wise black nitrate bcg in the mail. It is one really pretty bit of kit. The quality of what you get for $169 seems worth the premium over the psa bcg.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.
Haven't heard that name in a long while........perhaps a Mod should kill this thread now :)
This thread is ****ing dead. Enough.
Damn someone taking this personally. Employee of PSA huh bra? lol
If ya don't like it... move along.
Haven't heard that name in a long while........perhaps a Mod should kill this thread now :)
Something I should know?
Edit: did some googling. Sounds like there was quite a shit storm surrounding that fellow. Unfortunately I didn't know any of that when I ordered the bcg. I saw a video of it on youtube and thought it looked pretty spiffy. Oh well. I guess I won't be buying from there again.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk.
scoutchris
12-06-13, 00:43
Yeah, dude. I work for them. From Texas. That's why I'm here. I was under the impression that 12+ page threads of whining were reserved for barfcom. Especially when the posters are all using subjective descriptions while shitting on one of the few companies that didn't blatantly screw their customers during the panic(s). I haven't bought anything but carry ammo from them, so I don't really have a dog in the fight, but when people shit all over bcg staking a that are "laughable" without pictures, it's frustrating. At least to a degreed professional with a background in objective based research and publishing.
Let's quantify "laughable". Better yet, let's quantify how much staking is needed for it to be properly staked. Especially when we love to note how staking a castle nut requires a minute amount of metal at best to be effective.
Don't "bra" me. You have no idea who I am or what I do, everyone is a shit talking warrior on the other side of an iPhone.
scoutchris
12-06-13, 00:56
Additionally, if this was any other company, half of these posts would have been ripped apart and removed, unless these issues were brought to the company's attention first before posting. Instead, we have posts describing a "poorly machined pin" with no pictures. An entire post bitching about a product and shitting on a company, then saying how inconsequential the part was. This thread is full of people seeking confirmation bias and it's frustrating to see on M4C.
Yeah, dude. I work for them. From Texas. That's why I'm here. I was under the impression that 12+ page threads of whining were reserved for barfcom. Especially when the posters are all using subjective descriptions while shitting on one of the few companies that didn't blatantly screw their customers during the panic(s). I haven't bought anything but carry ammo from them, so I don't really have a dog in the fight, but when people shit all over bcg staking a that are "laughable" without pictures, it's frustrating. At least to a degreed professional with a background in objective based research and publishing.
Let's quantify "laughable". Better yet, let's quantify how much staking is needed for it to be properly staked. Especially when we love to note how staking a castle nut requires a minute amount of metal at best to be effective.
Don't "bra" me. You have no idea who I am or what I do, everyone is a shit talking warrior on the other side of an iPhone.
He's not wrong. I went back to page 4 and didn't see a single picture of any problems with their stuff. I have no personal experience other than a good buddy who bought a stripped lower from them for $50 and was very pleased, especially considering the price. Pictures really should be included if someone is going to file a complaint. For a bunch of guys that won't consider anything political unless there are sources behind it, there is quite a lack of substance to this thread. I know Mrgunsandgear advocates PSA a lot on his FB and haven't seen any reason not to trust him so far.
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