View Full Version : Recoil Magazine - Anyone reading it?
ForTehNguyen
07-11-12, 17:09
http://www.recoilweb.com/
http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/33/files/2012/07/Recoil-Issue-4-HD.jpg
i just found out about this bi monthly magazine last week and picked up issue 3 at the bookstore. Amazing gun magazine, good photography work, very good detailed reviews that arent afraid to point out flaws, technical details on self defense etc. Best way I can describe this magazine is its like Maxim but for guns, gear, outdoors - a gun lifestyle mag as they describe it.
Ordering back issues #1 and #2 now. For those wondering on the price, the magazine is printed on good quality paper thats thicker than most magazines and the covers have this coarse laminated plastic feel. Kind of like a binder but not as thick. I dunno how to explain it, you have to feel it in person.
hard copy:
https://www.circsource.com/store/storeBackIssMagazines.html?magazineId=330
digital subscription:
http://www.zinio.com/browse/publications/index.jsp?sch=true&productId=500651776
Moose-Knuckle
07-11-12, 17:16
For a gun rag it isn’t as bad the vast majority of them. They do appeal to the gun community's equivalent to the metro-sexual/gear queer though, especially with their layout of what the cover model is wearing in every issue.
In issue 2 they had a descent interview with Travis Haley.
Are they like every other gun and gear rag that NEVER posts a negative review about any firearm?
:rolleyes:
I only have the second issue and what I really liked were the 1:1 and multi-view pics of some of the guns/gear. (I do CAD work all day so I can relate! :D) It does have a bit of gear-the-rich-kids-play-with feel to it. However, if you look closer not everything is uber-expensive, high-grade stuff. There was an interesting article on hand held lights and a chart-like comparison of flash hiders/comps/brakes which was pretty cool.
It's an expensive magazine and I don't think I'll be getting a subscription just yet. I currently only subscribe to SWAT.
ForTehNguyen
07-11-12, 19:55
Are they like every other gun and gear rag that NEVER posts a negative review about any firearm?
:rolleyes:
They reviewed the Kriss Vector and pointed out some flaws
I wish there was a "Consumer's Report" for the firearm community, a magazine produced by an institution that was/is scrupulously free of taking advertising from any company that produces what the magazine is reviewing. Unfortunately, there is such intense collusion between gun mags and the gun industry we simply have no genuinely objective reviews. "The Truth About Guns" web site actually is probably the only site I'm aware of that will, in fact, call a spade a spade, as they did with a pistol recently.
Moose-Knuckle
07-11-12, 20:23
I wish there was a "Consumer's Report" for the firearm community, a magazine produced by an institution that was/is scrupulously free of taking advertising from any company that produces what the magazine is reviewing. Unfortunately, there is such intense collusion between gun mags and the gun industry we simply have no genuinely objective reviews. "The Truth About Guns" web site actually is probably the only site I'm aware of that will, in fact, call a spade a spade, as they did with a pistol recently.
This is what Gun Tests magazine was supposed to be. It was printed on news paper with no color print or ads.
This is what Gun Tests magazine was supposed to be. It was printed on news paper with no color print or ads.
And written by an army of complete buffoons that simply wanted a way to get people to fund their gun collecting.
Moose-Knuckle
07-11-12, 20:27
And written by an army of complete buffoons that simply wanted a way to get people to fund their gun collecting.
Yeap.
Not to mention this. . .
http://forums.theboxotruth.com/showthread.php?1959-Beware-Gun-Tests-Magazine!&
High Tower
07-11-12, 21:09
Recoil seems to be a decent gun rag.
I just hate the layout, but thats just me.
And I agree on Gun Tests...waste of $$$. Concept is great, but the contributors aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.
QuietShootr
07-11-12, 21:10
Seems okay, but could descend into assclownery with little provocation.
RogerinTPA
07-12-12, 07:05
[QUOTE=ForTehNguyen;1345275]http://www.recoilweb.com/
http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/33/files/2012/07/Recoil-Issue-4-HD.jpg
i just found out about this bi monthly magazine last week and picked up issue 3 at the bookstore. Amazing gun magazine, good photography work, very good detailed reviews that arent afraid to point out flaws, technical details on self defense etc. Best way I can describe this magazine is its like Maxim but for guns, gear, outdoors - a gun lifestyle mag as they describe it. <snip>.
Agreed. I picked up the first issue and thought the same thing. I enjoyed reading the articles, lots of gear porn and decent reviews. At least they had quite a bit quality firearms and gear in it. The mag seems to be geared Not towards the average gun owner in general, but more towards an M4C kinda crowd.:cool:
CarlosDJackal
07-12-12, 08:50
I bought the last issue of Recoil Magazine after someone told me about it. It was decent enough magazine.
But there is something about the way they have it laid out and the size of it that just doesn't sit right with me. I came across the most recent issue a couple of days ago at my local Wally World and I just could not get myself to purchase it. YMMV.
Best way I can describe this magazine is its like Maxim but for guns, gear, outdoors - a gun lifestyle mag as they describe it.
Agreed. I picked up the first issue and thought the same thing. I enjoyed reading the articles, lots of gear porn and decent reviews. At least they had quite a bit quality firearms and gear in it. The mag seems to be geared Not towards the average gun owner in general, but more towards an M4C kinda crowd.:cool:
This. I have actually met the Editor and is a good guy. He is also an M4C fan. ;)
I have read every issue they have put out. Currently, it is the ONLY gun magazine that I find worth reading.
C4
Yeh the mag is pretty darn good. I like the DIY specials they have in every issue . Although the guy that stippled the M&P kinda butchered it. Forgot what issue it was.
When I first picked up this mag at Walmart I was shocked that someone actually made a magazine like this. KAC, DD, other quality manufacturers mentioned, an interview with Jason Falla, and some pretty good basic info on the AR15 and its components. These guys seem to actually live what they write about and it comes through on paper.
This and SWAT are the only 2 mags I read. Neither are perfect but to me there isn't anything else close to them.
-Jax
These guys seem to actually live what they write about and it comes through on paper.
Interesting, as my impression is simply that they live on the forums and do a good job of compiling what those that think of themselves as discerning want to see and are familiar with.
It's a great business model. Find the market segment that thinks of itself as the elite ,or the Star-Bellied Sneetches, and cater to them. Substance is irrelevant as long as your target market is impressed and feels elite in the process.
Interesting, as my impression is simply that they live on the forums and do a good job of compiling what those that think of themselves as discerning want to see and are familiar with.
It's a great business model. Find the market segment that thinks of itself as the elite ,or the Star-Bellied Sneetches, and cater to them. Substance is irrelevant as long as your target market is impressed and feels elite in the process.
Yeh you may be right Rob and that comment of mine might be over simplified. If it is just a business model and template to hook 'elite' tactical/competitive type shooters then they are doing a good job at it. They've got a subscription out of me....and no I am not saying I am some elite shooter.
-Jax
Yeh you may be right Rob and that comment of mine might be over simplified. If it is just a business model and template to hook 'elite' tactical/competitive type shooters then are doing a good job at it.
-Jax
I think it is a good thing that an editor reads quality forums. Forums are typically much more up on new products, what's popular, etc. So this gives a magazine a more cutting edge. Couple the fact that they do a great job with the pics/layout and you are going to attract younger shooters that have been raised on Maxim/GQ type magazines. Right or wrong, that is the format that sells so someone might as well capitalize on it.
C4
I think it is a good thing that an editor reads quality forums. Forums are typically much more up on new products, what's popular, etc. So this gives a magazine a more cutting edge. Couple the fact that they do a great job with the pics/layout and you are going to attract younger shooters that have been raised on Maxim/GQ type magazines. Right or wrong, that is the format that sells so someone might as well capitalize on it.
C4
Completely agree. What made me more satisfied than anything was that these guys brought out a magazine like this because they saw a niche for it. This probably wouldn't have been possible just a few years ago. It shows that the population of shooters like us is growing and that is a VERY good thing.
-Jax
This is what Gun Tests magazine was supposed to be. It was printed on news paper with no color print or ads.
The only problem was it was ran by guys who only knew about bench shooting and nothing else.
They gave high praise to the Olympic Plinker as one of the best in the AR category. When reviewing a AR carbine with a Clinton era fixed "4 position style" stock they noted there was an area in the buttstock for a clean kit like the full size rifle but for some reason there was no trap door to keep it there.
I had a subscription for one year and I'd read one moronic thing after another. There criteria for recommending carry guns was almost criminally negligent. I'm almost positive they gave the Taurus Judge top marks.
Interesting, as my impression is simply that they live on the forums and do a good job of compiling what those that think of themselves as discerning want to see and are familiar with.
It's a great business model. Find the market segment that thinks of itself as the elite ,or the Star-Bellied Sneetches, and cater to them. Substance is irrelevant as long as your target market is impressed and feels elite in the process.
Isn't that a valid criticism of every magazine written?
Also to competently compile information, you still have to know your subject or you will end up with a nonsensical jumble. I've actually read books compiled this way and it became clear the author had no real first hand knowledge.
William B.
07-12-12, 13:53
I'm almost positive they gave the Taurus Judge top marks.
I believe you meant "Gun of the Year 2009".
http://www.gunreports.com/gow/handguns/Taurus-Judge-Gun-Tests-magazine-Revolver-2009-award_1729-1.html
I believe you meant "Gun of the Year 2009".
http://www.gunreports.com/gow/handguns/Taurus-Judge-Gun-Tests-magazine-Revolver-2009-award_1729-1.html
Hilarious. I only had my subscription in 1999 or 2000 but I got to know how they think. I knew they would go full retard over that one.
Much as I disagree with him on more than a few things, I think Rob's chart approach is the best way to compare guns. Simply tell us which one has what and what one's don't have it.
One could then pretty easily determine what firearm is most suitable for their particular needs and uses. Perhaps a new magazine "Gun Charts" is in order.
I think magazines are on their last leg. You can't question the wisdom of a statement or request additional information from a magazine, you can do that on the internet. Someone can write "The SIG 556 is currently the best semi auto available" in a gun magazine and at best you will get contradictory letters to the editor in the next issue. If you make such a claim on this forum you will get some pretty instant feedback that more or less torpedoes such an idea.
The only one I still read is Small Arms Review and even that one leaves much to be desired. You can almost completely ignore any review of "new products" as they will find something positive to say about the free sample they were sent.
Reviews of machine guns and older small arms have a bit more substance and factual information. I always seem to learn one or two new tidbits, even regarding weapons I've owned for 25 years or more. But for me the main draw is the histories of companies and individuals. Some magazines will write about Cooper, Stoner or Smith, nobody writes about guys like George Sullivan or companies like Golden State Arms.
William B.
07-12-12, 17:09
The only one I still read is Small Arms Review and even that one leaves much to be desired. You can almost completely ignore any review of "new products" as they will find something positive to say about the free sample they were sent.
Reviews of machine guns and older small arms have a bit more substance and factual information. I always seem to learn one or two new tidbits, even regarding weapons I've owned for 25 years or more. But for me the main draw is the histories of companies and individuals. Some magazines will write about Cooper, Stoner or Smith, nobody writes about guys like George Sullivan or companies like Golden State Arms.
SAR here, too, but they are transitioning to a quarterly printed publication and moving a lot of their content online. I would rather have the magazine in my hand once a month.
Hilarious. I only had my subscription in 1999 or 2000 but I got to know how they think. I knew they would go full retard over that one.
Much as I disagree with him on more than a few things, I think Rob's chart approach is the best way to compare guns. Simply tell us which one has what and what one's don't have it.
One could then pretty easily determine what firearm is most suitable for their particular needs and uses. Perhaps a new magazine "Gun Charts" is in order.
The problem with such a premise is that almost no other civilian-accessible firearm has a TDP as a baseline. It works fantastic with the AR, but I don't see such a "chart" type comparison scheme being applicable to other weapons unless they are all the same type and being manufactured by different companies. In fact, the only weapon I can think of it working for would be the 1911, and even then, the baseline would end up being basically subjective.
I think magazines are on their last leg. You can't question the wisdom of a statement or request additional information from a magazine, you can do that on the internet. Someone can write "The SIG 556 is currently the best semi auto available" in a gun magazine and at best you will get contradictory letters to the editor in the next issue. If you make such a claim on this forum you will get some pretty instant feedback that more or less torpedoes such an idea.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lleikpu8hq1qz6f4bo1_500.jpg
The thing is, if all you're offering is what I can read on a forum but with noting more than more of the flashy photos that I also already see on the internet...
At least with SWAT, and even I don't subscribe to SWAT anymore, you get Awerbuck, Rogers, Reitz... assuming you care what those guys have to say.
As a reader, and a writer, I see nothing in Recoil so far that's made it even leave the store with me, let alone subscribe. To me it's a lot of flash and extremely short on substance. Which, as a writer, I do understand is what most of the brain-dead, safe-stuffing, internet-picture-posting, buy-skill-and-happiness gun-buying public is after.
As I said, great business model. Soul-less, but great business model. Most great business models are.
The problem with such a premise is that almost no other civilian-accessible firearm has a TDP as a baseline. It works fantastic with the AR, but I don't see such a "chart" type comparison scheme being applicable to other weapons unless they are all the same type and being manufactured by different companies. In fact, the only weapon I can think of it working for would be the 1911, and even then, the baseline would end up being basically subjective.
That's what I meant. I really didn't imagine a Glock vs. 1911 chart. Obviously some charts would not be as comprehensive, but at least it would be an apples to apples comparison which is a lot more than we currently have going for most firearm discussions.
I think you could easily do a chart for AK variants and extend the concept, which modifications to 9mm handguns in general and .308 semi rifles, etc.
Which, as a writer, I do understand is what most of the brain-dead, safe-stuffing, internet-picture-posting, buy-skill-and-happiness gun-buying public is after.
As I said, great business model. Soul-less, but great business model. Most great business models are.
So how does one buy skill and happiness? I'd like to order some.
BrigandTwoFour
07-13-12, 11:39
I've been reading it since the first issue, and I will continue to do so.
Rob isn't wrong about the business model, it is entirely factual. There is nothing in these magazines that can be obtained by reading good message boards and looking at Stickman or Triple Bravo's pictures- but that's not the point. You could say the same of almost all magazine these days.
Traditional gun rags, like most print publications, have stagnated and become more about self perpetuation than quality information delivery. They give glowing reviews to what we perceive as sub-par equipment because they are defending the flow of new things to review. Nearly every issue seems the same, with the notable exception of informative articles by noteworthy trainers- something that Recoil has as well.
I enjoy Recoil because it brings a fresh look and feel to the gun world. it may be soulless (I disagree), but it's also effective. I have drummed up more firearms interest in people using articles from it than I ever could using SWAT or others. I have never seen interest in any other magazine from non-shooters like I see it here. And, in the end, that's a good thing.
Mauser KAR98K
07-13-12, 11:56
I'm probably one of the guys looking to get a subscription. Where I live, and all the information out there and products, "Recoil" actually spot lights the quality stuff, even the less expensive stuff that is still quality, over the pure trash other gun-rags run. Plus, the advertisers on "Recoil" are some of the same ones we see here on M4C and use. "Recoil" if the popularity keeps growing will hopefully be the filter that quality Lima-Charley signals need in order to be properly heard.
If this dumbed down, glossy, glittery, pretty pictured magazine will get Bubba's attention and distract him from getting the latest issue of 'DPMS is best' then maybe it will get his mind thinking differently about the AR and shooting.
-Jax
I've been reading it since the first issue, and I will continue to do so.
Rob isn't wrong about the business model, it is entirely factual. There is nothing in these magazines that can be obtained by reading good message boards and looking at Stickman or Triple Bravo's pictures- but that's not the point. You could say the same of almost all magazine these days.
Traditional gun rags, like most print publications, have stagnated and become more about self perpetuation than quality information delivery. They give glowing reviews to what we perceive as sub-par equipment because they are defending the flow of new things to review. Nearly every issue seems the same, with the notable exception of informative articles by noteworthy trainers- something that Recoil has as well.
I enjoy Recoil because it brings a fresh look and feel to the gun world. it may be soulless (I disagree), but it's also effective. I have drummed up more firearms interest in people using articles from it than I ever could using SWAT or others. I have never seen interest in any other magazine from non-shooters like I see it here. And, in the end, that's a good thing.
Right. People need to realize that gun magazines are mostly a form of entertainment. If you really want to learn how to do something (like shoot), you need to put the magazine down and get some professional training and then practice what you are taught.
C4
skullworks
07-13-12, 13:01
I read it and I enjoy it,
Tatatatatatapatalk 2
Right. People need to realize that gun magazines are mostly a form of entertainment. If you really want to learn how to do something (like shoot), you need to put the magazine down and get some professional training and then practice what you are taught.
C4
A lot of people miss that. And while I agree with the general point, it wasn't always the case. In the long, long time ago (before the internet) when I was a kid growing up I learned quite a bit of thing from the American Rifleman magazine.
Their firearm spotlights about things like Mausers, Enfields and P-38s taught me about guns that I intended to buy for my personal collection and helped me learn about variants, manufacturers and associated values.
They would run articles on how to use a military sling correctly and this information would be used on my next range trip. The Armed Citizen would teach me "do's and dont's" according to what was successful in these accounts.
Plenty of articles by guys like Cooper and Ayoob, I don't think there was ever an issue that didn't teach me something or give me ideas for something else. I think what actually happens is people grow up and become more knowledgeable than that magazine level of information.
I eventually arrived at a point where when reading about a given firearm I knew exactly what they were getting ready to tell me because the author was clearly using the same source of information I had read many years before. And in some cases I would actually find errors and know the source of that information as well.
I noticed the same thing with martial arts magazines. Growing up Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu were full of fascinating and useful information. But at some point I moved past that knowledge base. And it is unreasonable to expect a magazine to try and publish for the experts. There is the Journal of Asian Martial Arts and nobody has ever heard of it and it generally isn't on newsstands. It also costs three times as much as the rags. Several others like Bugeisha have come and gone because they were too devoted to factual knowledge and information so they had a limited readership.
If you made a magazine specifically for guys like Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb and such most AR owners wouldn't understand half the information in it. Everyone who has "taken a class" probably believes they would understand such a magazine, but they would be kidding themselves. And quite honestly, when you get to that point, you really don't need a magazine for guidance any longer.
So while the self recognized experts dismiss various publications as simply gun porn and a gear queer catalog they should remember the magazine actually isn't for them. Any actual expert has graduated from the magazine a long time ago and now reads them (if at all) for the pictures and to look at new gear for his own amusement. He already knows how to use a sling and doesn't need a magazine to teach him. He knows that this magazine, and most all of them, are for people who are more near the beginning stages of interest in the subject.
Army Chief
07-13-12, 14:10
No dog in the fight, really, but I'd rather see a publication like this thrive and survive than be left with the usual assortment of lowest-common-denominator "gun nut" periodicals. The Recoil guys seem to be committed to covering the right kinds of topics, talking to the right kinds of people, and reaching a fairly relevant (per my definition, anyway) demographic.
Steyr correctly observes that no magazine is likely to meet the needs of the graduate-level shooter, but to this point, I'm inclined to give them full credit for the effort.
AC
I subscribe to RECOIL electronically through Zinio. I love it. That being said I like looking at pretty pictures of guns whether in a magazine or in the forums.
Moose-Knuckle
07-13-12, 15:28
BrigandTwoFour and SteyrAUG, great posts guys.
Made a quick meme for RECOIL MAG..
backstory..
http://madogre.com/?p=3382
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8315/7962260612_2346a7df26_b.jpg
QuietShootr
09-09-12, 09:42
dickheads.
I bet our Joisey Crew thinks what that guy wrote is perfectly sensible.
crowkiller
09-09-12, 13:14
Wow! Thanks for posting Ill not buy any of their magazines.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 13:17
http://www.facebook.com/DumpRecoilMagazine
Also, SilencerCo has dropped their ads from Recoil. Hopefully, other advertisers (such as BCM) follow suit.
Spread the word; Recoil Magazine is the number one choice for the elitist liberal left.
Sporting purpose, sporting application, etc is like the eye roll button when discussing whether or not something should be sold and/or legal :rolleyes:
Sporting purpose, sporting application, etc is like the eye roll button when discussing whether or not something should be sold and/or legal :rolleyes:
And it truly amazes me when anyone who considers themselves "pro gun" buys into it. Imagine if the civil rights bill protected only certain kinds of minorities.
More importantly, if the MP7 is so unsuitable for ordinary people, why is recoil magazine writing articles about it? Why were they allowed access to one for their article? Why should any details be made available to them? They are no more "special" than the rest of us.
How many are still going to continue to read/subscribe/purchase Recoil Mag?
O
JBecker 72
09-09-12, 14:06
**** that douchebag and their magazine. Repeal the NFA and GCA and stop infringing on our rights as law abiding citizens.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
ForTehNguyen
09-09-12, 14:26
Ill be getting the new issue
justin_247
09-09-12, 14:29
That magazine has nice pictures. Too bad...
I won't be purchasing that magazine again until Jerry Tsai is fired.
justin_247
09-09-12, 14:32
The magazine has an anti-gun editor who thinks that weapons like the MP7A1 should be for law enforcement purposes only.
Careful with this one, folks.
JBecker 72
09-09-12, 14:37
That magazine has nice pictures. Too bad...
I won't be purchasing that magazine again until Jerry Tsai is fired.
So do about 15% of the posters in the AR pic thread.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Business_Casual
09-09-12, 14:42
The barrel ban is the latest example of that sporting purposes BS.
bc
Straight Shooter
09-09-12, 14:46
Im through with ALL of em. ****in re-hashed articles over & over.
Precious NEW info from any of them. They love every gun they shoot. I cant stand them anymore. When my subscriptions run out soon to the three I still get, thats it for me. I flip through them in about two minutes, and into File 13 they go. ****ing 4 times more ads than info in them.
Ive also been told by others that Recoil mag is a anti-gun leaning rag,
and after reading what was said about the H&K not being allowed or needed by civies...well it aint for me.
Yall like it...yall read it, Im not.
Just so the information is easier to get.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=112546
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 14:51
I'll never understand the sporting/hunting explanation. To say that shows a real ignorance of American history.
I won't be purchasing that magazine again until Jerry Tsai is fired.
Perhaps that would be a useful effort of time.
http://www.recoilweb.com/about/
Contact: recoil@sorc.com
I'll never understand the sporting/hunting explanation. To say that shows a real ignorance of American history.
Comes from the "sporter clause" of the 1968 GCA, which is in direct contradiction with the Constitution and the Federalist Papers.
parishioner
09-09-12, 15:28
He basically said alright folks, let me clarify the "this gun has no sporting purpose" statement by saying this gun has no sporting purpose.
Awesome job.
Reagans Rascals
09-09-12, 15:41
just because of this bullshit article I think we should all go out and buy MP7's just to say **** you to them.... oh yeah... we cant... **** you H&K
xrayoneone
09-09-12, 15:41
How doesn't the MP7 have a sporting purpose? Give me any firearm and I can find a sport for it. It would be great for small game and someone could run it for a multigun match that has range restrictions. Clearly when someone hides behind "sporting purpose" they have no imagination.
Recoil is published by Panteao Productions, right? The same people that brought us the BLOOMING DEATH! That's right, the blooming death. Check it out second video down http://www.recoilweb.com/video/
So how is that legit but they have a problem with the MP7?
Reagans Rascals
09-09-12, 15:47
The same people that brought us the BLOOMING DEATH! That's right, the blooming death.
So how is that legit but they have a problem with the MP7?
eehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFcqGGMPc3k)
just bubble guts....
Its a shame, I thought it was a pretty good magazine. I can't believe something that stupid, actually made it to print without someone catching it.
Reagans Rascals
09-09-12, 16:36
I've made 2 mistakes in my life... the first one... giving Long John Silvers a second chance.. and the second... reading that magazine...
If he deems the weapon to be so overwhelmingly dangerous then he must be baffled as to why it hasn't been adopted by militaries worldwide to replace their inferior platforms.
Sent the following today:
Recoil,
I have bought all of your issues to date from my local Wal-Mart. I had planned on subscribing. After your anti-2nd Amendment take on the MP-7 and the ridiculous retort by your editor, I will not be subscribing. I will be using social media to highlight your anti Second Amendment position. Further, I will curtail purchases from anyone who advertises in your magazine. Additionally, I am expressing this directly to your advertisers. I am a 39 year old male with a stable six figure income that is subject to a lot of discretionary spending for my pro-Second Amendment purchases. I am so disappointed in your article and even more disappointed in your clumsy response. Up until now, you had a good thing going. Way to slay the cash cow.
If he deems the weapon to be so overwhelmingly dangerous then he must be baffled as to why it hasn't been adopted by militaries worldwide to replace their inferior platforms.
Because it is a special application weapon. But I "think" the German military adopted it to replace the Uzi (MP2) in their armored units.
But what the editors fail to realize (and I know you know this) is that weapons that are particularly suited to military use are EQUALLY suited to civilians as a defensive weapon.
Personally I'd prefer something with superior terminal ballistics but I understand it was designed to defeat armor.
This. I have actually met the Editor and is a good guy. He is also an M4C fan. ;)
I have read every issue they have put out. Currently, it is the ONLY gun magazine that I find worth reading.
C4
Hopefully he is paying close attention to this and the other thread.
just because of this bullshit article I think we should all go out and buy MP7's just to say **** you to them.... oh yeah... we cant... **** you H&K
That would hardly be HKs fault.
Import of foreign machine guns is prohibited by the 1968 GCA.
If HK manufactured it domestically it would be prohibited by FOPA 86.
Importation of a semi automatic version would be banned by the 1989 import ban.
Domestic manufacture of a semi auto would be subject to ATF approval and it is unlikely they'd ever approve a civilian anything chambered in the 4.6mm caliber.
Best we could get is a neutered version in a civilian 4.6mm round that would be as anemic as the civilian 5.7mm round and HK probably knows that would hardly be enough sales to justify the effort.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
09-09-12, 17:12
Hey guys, this is Jerry Tsai, Editor of RECOIL. I think I need to jump in here and clarify what I wrote in the MP7A1 article. It looks like I may not have stated my point clearly enough in that line that is quoted up above. Let's be clear, neither RECOIL nor I are taking the stance on what should or should not be made available on the commercial market although I can see how what was written can be confused as such.
Because we don't want anything to be taken out of context, let's complete that quote and read the entire paragraph:
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."
Let' also review why this gun should not be taken lightly. In the article it was stated that the MP7A1 is a slightly larger than handgun sized machine-gun that can be accurately fired and penetrate Soviet style body armor at more than 300 yards. In the wrong hands, that's a bad day for the good guys.
As readers of RECOIL, we all agree that we love bad-*** hardware, there's no question about that. I believe that in a perfect world, all of us should have access to every kind of gadget that we desire. Believe me, being a civvie myself, I'd love to be able to get my hands on an MP7A1 of my own regardless of its stated purpose, but unfortunately the reality is that it isn't available to us. As a fellow enthusiast, I know how frustrating it is to want something only to be denied it.
Its manufacturer has not made the gun available to the general public and when we asked if it would ever come to the commercial market, they replied that it is strictly a military and law enforcement weapon, adding that there are no sporting applications for it. Is it wrong that HK decided against selling a full-auto pocket sized machine gun that can penetrate armor from hundreds of yards away? It's their decision to make and their decision they have to live with not mine nor anybody else's.
I accepted their answer for what it was out of respect for those serving in uniform. I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn't want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either. Whether or not you agree with this is fine. I am compelled to explain a point that I was trying to make that may have not been clear.
Thanks for reading,
- JT, Editor, RECOIL
The magazine has an anti-gun editor who thinks that weapons like the MP7A1 should be for law enforcement purposes only.
Careful with this one, folks.
Bull, he isn't anti-gun. Thinking the MP7 is useless for everyone isn't even close to being the same as anti-gun. The best case you could try to make is that he is against small full auto weapons being in the hands of everyone, which would still put him ahead of the NRA.
Hey guys, this is Jerry Tsai, Editor of RECOIL. I think I need to jump in here and clarify what I wrote in the MP7A1 article. It looks like I may not have stated my point clearly enough in that line that is quoted up above. Let's be clear, neither RECOIL nor I are taking the stance on what should or should not be made available on the commercial market although I can see how what was written can be confused as such.
Because we don't want anything to be taken out of context, let's complete that quote and read the entire paragraph:
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."
Let' also review why this gun should not be taken lightly. In the article it was stated that the MP7A1 is a slightly larger than handgun sized machine-gun that can be accurately fired and penetrate Soviet style body armor at more than 300 yards. In the wrong hands, that's a bad day for the good guys.
As readers of RECOIL, we all agree that we love bad-*** hardware, there's no question about that. I believe that in a perfect world, all of us should have access to every kind of gadget that we desire. Believe me, being a civvie myself, I'd love to be able to get my hands on an MP7A1 of my own regardless of its stated purpose, but unfortunately the reality is that it isn't available to us. As a fellow enthusiast, I know how frustrating it is to want something only to be denied it.
Its manufacturer has not made the gun available to the general public and when we asked if it would ever come to the commercial market, they replied that it is strictly a military and law enforcement weapon, adding that there are no sporting applications for it. Is it wrong that HK decided against selling a full-auto pocket sized machine gun that can penetrate armor from hundreds of yards away? It's their decision to make and their decision they have to live with not mine nor anybody else's.
I accepted their answer for what it was out of respect for those serving in uniform. I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn't want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either. Whether or not you agree with this is fine. I am compelled to explain a point that I was trying to make that may have not been clear.
Thanks for reading,
- JT, Editor, RECOIL
Sorry, but the red and the blue highlighted sections of text above stand in stark contrast to each other.
A few comments:
A select fire MP7 can't be sold to American civilians anyways.
If you want to talk having respect for and keeping those in uniform safe, I'm quite certain that the majority of LEOs killed by gunfire are killed with handguns. If we are going to start down this path, where does it lead?
Your original point was pretty clear and I don't think you were being taken out of context. Your explanation seems to fit pretty well with what you originally said.
Bull, he isn't anti-gun. Thinking the MP7 is useless for everyone isn't even close to being the same as anti-gun. The best case you could try to make is that he is against small full auto weapons being in the hands of everyone, which would still put him ahead of the NRA.
I think the "sporter clause" is anti gun, probably the most anti gun legislation we've ever had. As a consequence, I consider anyone who promotes or supports the "sporter clause" as "anti gun."
My right to keep and bear arms has NOTHING to do with hunting or competition shooting. It is central to my right to "self defense."
Anyone who would seek to limit what weapons I may use in that role, especially those who would seek to eliminate the most suitable weapons (those used by the military for defense), IS anti gun. It is also far from useless, in fact Personal Defense Weapon describes something very useful for personal defense. In many ways is is far more practical for civilian use than an AR.
Additionally, you say "everyone" as if it is a bad thing. Since we clearly aren't talking about "prohibited persons" what is wrong with "everyone" having one?
QuietShootr
09-09-12, 17:39
Bull, he isn't anti-gun. Thinking the MP7 is useless for everyone isn't even close to being the same as anti-gun. The best case you could try to make is that he is against small full auto weapons being in the hands of everyone, which would still put him ahead of the NRA.
Thinking it's useless for nearly everyone is a FAR cry from saying "civvies should never get their hands on this technology". There is no defense for what they said.
RECOIL MAG..
Never heard of it honestly.
I am sure there will be a retraction/clarification next issue or soon in their website.
QuietShootr
09-09-12, 17:58
Where are you from, Jerry? California? New Jersey?
You don't get it. You saw an opportunity to make money in another niche enthusiast's market, like the Pimp My Ricer crowd that you got your start in, but you are woefully out of your depth. You see, Jerry, you thought that we were the same as the 2Fast2Furious-West-Coast-Honda-With-A-Fart-Can crowd, just with different machines and clothes.
Way wrong answer.
What you did was have an unbelievably candid slip of the tongue. And unlike the Ricer-Fart-Can folks, we do this because it IS a way of life for us - not a "Lifestyle." And now, Jerry, we know for damn sure that you aren't one of US, you're one of THEM who thought he could superficially ingratiate himself with us to make a buck.
Sorry, J-dawg, but that shit doesn't fly here. In fact, it downright pisses most of us off so bad you wouldn't believe it. In fact, you probably don't believe it - so you might want to give Jim Zumbo a call and ask him how his little foray into shit-talking us went for him. And he never pretended to like us, like you did.
You aren't going to understand this, but we believe and live the way we do right down to our very bones. It isn't a "Hobby", it isn't a "Lifestyle", and it isn't a "Sport". You made the mistake of pretending you were one of us, and believe me, Jerry, one thing this community hates more than anything else is a poser.
Here's a free piece of advice, though I know you won't follow it. Issue a statement saying you ****ed up, you're shutting Recoil down, and going back where you came from. You'll save a little face that way. Because that is what's going to happen now regardless of what you do, and your choice is whether you man up and accept the consequences of your thoughts and actions, or if you keep backpedaling and whining about context and 'I didn't mean that' and all that shit.
One way you look like a man who made a mistake - the other way you look like a whiny little media weasel who got caught shitting on his audience. Either way you're going down, but it'll be either like a man, or like a little bitch. Your choice. I'd take the honorable way out, myself, but that's really the difference between our kind and yours, Jerry.
Good luck in your future endeavors in your previous field. Hope you didn't toss that contact list. You're gonna need it.
I am compelled to explain a point that I was trying to make that may have not been clear.
Thanks for reading,
- JT, Editor, RECOIL
I'll be honest with you sir, I don't think you helped or improved your position one iota with the above. I'd say you might want to consult with a genuine authority on such a gun before writing about it. Your comments stem (or so it appears to this reader) from a lack of real understanding of the fire arm in question and the 4.6mm rnd, and fire arms in general, as well as what really concerns LEO.
What you should do is interview a number of people with real expertise (and you can probably pull them from this forum) in that area to explain on where you went wrong, and finish with a retraction on how you went off the rails a bit with your comments.
I have been in the publishing biz for a few decades myself. It happens to the best of us. Difference is whether you dig yourself in deeper, or man up and realize perhaps you misspoke.
Good luck.
I am sure there will be a retraction/clarification next issue or soon in their website.
I don't think we need any further clarification. The additional clarification that was already posted was more or less and more detailed explanation of the same exact belief.
As far as retractions or apologies, we used to get those from Bill Clinton all the time. It is extremely clear what views are held by the editor, just as they were for Bill Ruger (regarding assault weapons and high caps) and the VP of Glock (regarding ballistic fingerprinting).
What Recoil magazine needs to decide is if they agree with the views of the editor and wish to keep him as an editor with those views in mind. And then the readers of Recoil magazine need to decide if they want to support the decision that is made financially.
If I as a gun dealer were to espouse such a view in this message board I should rightly expect to lose a lot of support. I have many views that have probably cost me a customer here and there simply because they don't agree with me. That is the cost of having and expressing beliefs on an open forum.
But that doesn't even come close to the editor of a firearms magazine putting them in print in the publication where they are then promoted to all readers. This is essentially the Sarah Brady / Diane Feinstein line of "those guns are not suitable for civilian ownership or use." There are more than a few people who think only "government and law enforcement" should own AR rifles and many of us have rifles marked accordingly. If the view became popular enough we might not own such rifles. And the last thing any of us really needs is a firearms publication with an editor who endorses such views.
Damned shame.
Yep. I remember feeling the same kind of disappointment with Bill Ruger a few decades back.
QuietShootr
09-09-12, 18:09
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b112/uglyguysue/reocil.jpg
ROFL!
I have to admit....this thread was a really bad idea, and I think it really solidifies your previous statements/position.
Not to mention you've associated Mount N Slot now with that position by posting the above under the name....some of us didn't know that Recoil and Mount N Slot were related. I don't own any Mount N slot kit, but it has always looked well thought out and built. Seems like this might not only drag down a publication, but another company as well.
QuietShootr
09-09-12, 18:17
I have to admit....this thread was a really bad idea, and I think it really solidifies your previous statements/position.
Not to mention you've associated Mount N Slot now with that position by posting the above under the name....some of us didn't know that Recoil and Mount N Slot were related. I don't own any Mount N slot kit, but it has always looked well thought out and built. Seems like this might not only drag down a publication, but another company as well.
Yup. This dude's friends should have an intervention and get him away from the internet before he kills again.
Traveshamockery
09-09-12, 18:21
Hey guys, this is Jerry Tsai, Editor of RECOIL...
Thanks for reading,
- JT, Editor, RECOIL
Jerry,
What's the nature of your relationship with Mount-N-Slot?
EDIT: Earl just reposted Jerry Tsai's statement. There's no relationship between Jerry and Mount-N-Slot, thank God.
Difference is whether you dig yourself in deeper, or man up and realize perhaps you misspoke.
Agree 100%. As a current subscriber to the iPad digital edition, I will not be renewing unless Jerry has a public "come to Jesus" moment retracting his derogatory implications about civilian shooters.
EDIT:
SilencerCo has pulled their advertising (http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442) from future issues.
Mr Elbowseed
09-09-12, 18:25
It is my understanding that the 2nd says nothing about sport or hunting
Traveshamockery
09-09-12, 18:28
It is my understanding that the 2nd says nothing about sport or hunting
Amen. This quote cracks me up:
Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it.
Civilians have a perfectly legitimate interest in a weapon "made to put down scumbags." Amazing that Jerry seems to have no problem marketing AR-15s to his customer base, despite their wide adoption by the US military.
crowkiller
09-09-12, 18:28
Deleted.
I am sure there will be a retraction/clarification next issue or soon in their website.
He clarified his first anti-gun statement with another anti-gun statement. He should just resign and STFU. He clearly does not understand RKBA and no amount of backpeddling, now or in a future issue, change that.
If nothing else, there is one thing TOS does well.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1364300_Recoil_Magazine_is_Anti_Gun_Apparently.html&page=1
12 pages already.
Bad Medicine
09-09-12, 18:47
I am starting to not feel so bad about only buying the first issue... I had high hopes for this magazine, oh well life goes on.
Suwannee Tim
09-09-12, 18:57
It is my understanding that the 2nd says nothing about sport or hunting
Well, let's review it:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
You are correct Mr. Elbowseed. The only reference to purpose is to the militia which is us and the use is presumably self defense and the defense of the Constitution. Such tasks would reasonably be done with the most effective weapons extant.
And to think I spent money with Mount-in-Slot! I feel betrayed.
As I understand in he's not JT he's just quoting him.
militarymoron
09-09-12, 19:29
Mount-n-slot is just quoting jerry - earl should have made that clear in his post. it's evident that there is no connection between mount-n-slot and jerry tsai because earl started a FB page condeming jerry's statements here:
http://www.facebook.com/DumpRecoilMagazine
Unbelievable! Firearm enthusist and avid shooter I am very dissapointed in this BS backpedaling. Im sick of the whole 'sporting' classification. Who the hell are you to tell us what we should or should not have. I love the constitution, especially the first two amendments and you just SHIT on BOTH!
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 19:30
Bull, he isn't anti-gun. Thinking the MP7 is useless for everyone isn't even close to being the same as anti-gun. The best case you could try to make is that he is against small full auto weapons being in the hands of everyone, which would still put him ahead of the NRA.
I noticed you deleted my comment on your page asking about whether or not you still support Recoil. It is apparent that you not only support the magazine, but also the comments as well.
Because it is a special application weapon. But I "think" the German military adopted it to replace the Uzi (MP2) in their armored units.
Is it the weapon that is so special, or the round? A 10.5" SBR with M995 would work well too, but only the M955 is currently unobtainable.
Mr Elbowseed
09-09-12, 19:34
Mount-n-slot is just quoting jerry - earl should have made that clear in his post. it's evident that there is no connection between mount-n-slot and jerry tsai because earl started a FB page condeming jerry's statements here:
http://www.facebook.com/DumpRecoilMagazine
That's reassuring! I was worried i recommended a mount n slot to someone just last week. Thanks for clarifying
crowkiller
09-09-12, 19:39
Mount-n-slot is just quoting jerry - earl should have made that clear in his post. it's evident that there is no connection between mount-n-slot and jerry tsai because earl started a FB page condeming jerry's statements here:
http://www.facebook.com/DumpRecoilMagazine
Thanks for clarifying I happy they arent associated.
glock21xxx
09-09-12, 19:45
Thanks for clarifying I happy they arent associated.
I too, will not be renewing my subscription to this magazine. I am honestly disappointed because I really liked this magazine.
Ah well, sometimes the good guys aren't who they appear to be.
NorthDakota
09-09-12, 19:47
On a related note, I believe it was "Tactical Response" magazine that I browsed through before trashing, that had an article on the HK 417. I'm going off memory here so if someone can validate, that would be great. Anyway, the gist was that HK has a new version of the 417 that is once again "unavailable for civilian purchase" because it has some (and I paraphrase) "special coating to make it less apparent with thermal imaging....."
Again, HK rears its "because you suck and we hate you" mentality.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 19:51
I'm also going to cease my support of any companies who choose to advertise in RECOIL. While it'll be a couple of months to see who is still advertising there it may not be a bad idea to make current advertisers aware of the magazines editorial stance.
Agreed, Id like to see all advertisers pull out tomorrow, but realistically it will take awhile.
LowSpeed_HighDrag,
If you are talking about my company facebook page, it is there for photography, not for anything else. Do you honestly think I'm suddenly anti-gun? I don't think you are that stupid, but its one of the reasons I don't bother going into the GD section of this board or arfcom. Feel free to post whatever you want, I won't be checking back on this thread or this section. I'm here for firearms, not to play debate club with people.
The words of Patrick Henry come back now, louder and more meaningful than ever. "Let us trust God, and our better judgment to set us right hereafter. United we stand, divided we fall. Let us not split into factions which must destroy that union upon which our existence hangs.”
If you honestly think going on a crusade after RECOIL is going to make the 2nd Amendment better, create a better light for firearm owners, or anything else positive, have at it. Jerry Tsai screwed up, end of story.
I think sporting purpose and all that was partly ignorance but also partly manipulation in an attempt to promote "compromise" (also known as some now, some later, eventually all) and "common sense" (ignorance and stupidity being the common factor).
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 19:58
LowSpeed_HighDrag,
If you are talking about my company facebook page, it is there for photography, not for anything else. Do you honestly think I'm suddenly anti-gun? I don't think you are that stupid, but its one of the reasons I don't bother going into the GD section of this board or arfcom. Feel free to post whatever you want, I won't be checking back on this thread or this section. I'm here for firearms, not to play debate club with people.
The words of Patrick Henry come back now, louder and more meaningful than ever. "Let us trust God, and our better judgment to set us right hereafter. United we stand, divided we fall. Let us not split into factions which must destroy that union upon which our existence hangs.”
If you honestly think going on a crusade after RECOIL is going to make the 2nd Amendment better, create a better light for firearm owners, or anything else positive, have at it. Jerry Tsai screwed up, end of story.
You of all people could not be called anti-gun, which is why it shocks me that you support his comments. I, for one, wont support anyone that doesnt support the constitution, be they Sarah Brady or Jerry Tsai. End of that story.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 19:59
I think sporting purpose and all that was partly ignorance but also partly manipulation in an attempt to promote "compromise" (also known as some now, some later, eventually all) and "common sense" (ignorance and stupidity being the common factor).
Im done with compromise. There is no such thing in this debate. They stand to lose nothing, we stand to lose it all, piece by piece by piece.
CaptainDooley
09-09-12, 20:21
Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who took offense to that quote. I set down the mag (iPad) and didn't finish and wasn't sure if there was some clarification or context I missed. Total BS. I will be asking (futilely I'm sure) for a refund and will certainly not be renewing my subscription.
ForTehNguyen
09-09-12, 20:25
where did Stick say he supported his comments? Stick does make a point of how killing a gun magazine advances 2A. JT said something stupid and he should step down but why go and kill a magazine.
Ready.Fire.Aim
09-09-12, 20:26
"We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of
Makes you wonder If he thinks we should ban all transferable machine guns?
"I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn't want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either."
Using his logic would you rather confront a MP7A1 or a M16? Heaven forbid a belt fed M2 .50 cal? Using his logic we should ban all transferable MG and for that matter any gun that could harm police officers.
Sheesh. What a dirt bag.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 20:29
where did Stick say he supported his comments? Stick does make a point of how killing a gun magazine advances 2A. JT said something stupid and he should step down but why go and kill a magazine.
So you are telling me that Jerry Tsai writes, edits, copy edits, approves, prints, and distributes all of his own articles? I cant imagine it would be that way, since it takes a publishing team to make a magazine, and this publishing team is guilty.
Is it the weapon that is so special, or the round? A 10.5" SBR with M995 would work well too, but only the M955 is currently unobtainable.
4.6 was made to penetrate more armor than 9mm. It's not a better penetrator than M855 and nowhere near M995.
CarlosDJackal
09-09-12, 20:33
where did Stick say he supported his comments? Stick does make a point of how killing a gun magazine advances 2A. JT said something stupid and he should step down but why go and kill a magazine.
Screw RECOIL and H&K!! By their policy and actions they have given the anti-Constitution crowd more ammunition to keep neutering the rights of all law-abiding Americans.
I guess these assholes somehow missed the fact that legally-armed citizens have put down scumbags on a regular basis.
I almost can't believe what I am reading here. This guy should get a job in PR. Freaking amazing.
Is it the weapon that is so special, or the round? A 10.5" SBR with M995 would work well too, but only the M955 is currently unobtainable.
Specifically, it is the round that is special application.
A 10.5 AR wouldn't be nearly has handy in a tank turret. Even a 7.5 is bigger.
JBecker 72
09-09-12, 20:53
Go **** yourself.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Bolt_Overide
09-09-12, 20:53
You accomplished two things here.
Ensuring I will never read recoil again.
And confirming that you're an idiot.
I'm also going to cease my support of any companies who choose to advertise in RECOIL. While it'll be a couple of months to see who is still advertising there it may not be a bad idea to make current advertisers aware of the magazines editorial stance.
Uh, you do understand that you will be relegated to using a sling shot for self-defense?
Should you decide to make good on this threat, can I have all of your gear?
Not sure if this was posted here in another thread yet but it seems that Silencerco isn't to pleased either or took their customers concerns seriously.
http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442
Screw RECOIL and H&K!! By their policy and actions they have given the anti-Constitution crowd more ammunition to keep neutering the rights of all law-abiding Americans.
I guess these assholes somehow missed the fact that legally-armed citizens have put down scumbags on a regular basis.
Did I miss where HK was promoting the sporting purposes crap too?
I know they are subject to it as a result of the 1968 GCA, 1986 FOPA, 1989 Import Ban, etc. But I didn't see where HK stated they wouldn't sell them to us IF it were legal to do so.
They did after all take the time and trouble to produce a compliant semi auto version of the 416.
Rob Pincus
09-09-12, 20:57
DEAR RECOIL MAGAZINE,
In reference to: “Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of…” To say I disagree with your thoughts on the MP7 would be a gross understatement.
In fact, the statement’s ignorance is amazing. In case you didn’t notice, the only reason Glocks, M&Ps, and probably most of the guns that are paying for advertising space in your rag are built is to put down bad guys. People may find “sporting purposes” for them but gun games aren’t why they exist. If Wired or Maxim had said what you did, I wouldn’t care. You should’ve known better.
The vast majority of firearms that have been designed and built in the history of the tool have been built for defensive or offensive use. Regardless of the intended role, military, law enforcement or civilian, the overwhelming majority of firearms on shelves in gun shops and shown in the pages of your now incredibly disappointing magazine are designed for use by people against people.
While the “shooting sports” label may be a banner that has hung over our industry for political and (sometimes) marketing reasons, your young magazine hasn’t exactly catered to the waterfowl or skeet crowds.
Personally, the MP7 is one of the few guns on the planet that I would rush out and pay H&K Retail Price for, if it were ever offered for civilian sale. I’ve had the pleasure of shooting them many times and training teams that use them. It is a great tool, but didn’t possess any magical power that made it reckless, dangerous or inappropriate for any responsible firearms owner to possess…for whatever reason they desire.
After reading Jerry Tsai’s attempt to justify the position by saying that he is concerned about the gun getting into the “wrong hands” and posing a threat to law enforcement, it is even more clear that this wasn’t just a slip up or the parroting of H&K’s sales policy. There is obviously an opinion held by the leadership of your magazine that thinks some guns are okay for us to own and some are not.
The ridiculousness of the idea that because MP7 rounds can penetrate soft body armor, they shouldn’t be owned by civilians is the kind of thing gun control advocates and anti-gunners say, not something that should be coming out of the mouth of a magazine that cashes checks written by the gun industry and its customers.
I had high hopes for your publication. Now I expect people to stop reading it, advertisers to fade away and your writers to submit their work to other publications that actually understand the industry they are covering.
Rob Pincus
I.C.E. Training Company
Not sure if this was posted here in another thread yet but it seems that Silencerco isn't to pleased either or took their customers concerns seriously.
http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442
Good for them.
I personally had some less than positive experiences with Silencerco., but it seems they are trying to be a stand up company as a general rule (my experiences notwithstanding).
I only wish I didn't have negative experiences with them, they seem to be the kind of company whose products I'd prefer to promote.
Traveshamockery
09-09-12, 21:01
It should be noted that "MOUNT-N-SLOT" was just reposting a statement from Jerry Tsai's found elsewhere.
Jerry Tsai, as far as I can tell, has not posted in this thread.
On a related note, I believe it was "Tactical Response" magazine that I browsed through before trashing, that had an article on the HK 417. I'm going off memory here so if someone can validate, that would be great. Anyway, the gist was that HK has a new version of the 417 that is once again "unavailable for civilian purchase" because it has some (and I paraphrase) "special coating to make it less apparent with thermal imaging....."
Again, HK rears its "because you suck and we hate you" mentality.
Which is why HK never made the Hk417 available to the public . ..
Wait, they did.
Never mind.
Thanks for clarifying I happy they arent associated.
Same here!
Sent from my DROIDX
Good for them.
I personally had some less than positive experiences with Silencerco., but it seems they are trying to be a stand up company as a general rule (my experiences notwithstanding).
I only wish I didn't have negative experiences with them, they seem to be the kind of company whose products I'd prefer to promote.
I'm with the croud thats more disappointed than mad. Bad decisions like this from a mag and an editor are NOT good for the shooting community no matter what happens.
On one hand you have "anti-gun" propaganda possibilities from what they posted and on the other you have a high potential magazine going down the shitter. Its just not good at all.
Straight Shooter
09-09-12, 21:13
I/WE should be allowed, nay...ENCOURAGED..to own ANY weapon that the police, or anyone outside U.S. Military service, owns.
NEVER should police have the capability to be more armed than a law abiding citizenry...NEVER.
And anybody in the firearms community, and Im quite sure the gent in question is a very educated person, should not believe or think or say otherwise. EVEN IF for some reason you really do think that, you oughtta know the ammo it gives to the antis every time this, or a ****in Zumbo...or Dumdo or whatever the other idiots name was, is
said by another gun owner.
We are our own worst enemy sometimes.
I'm with the croud thats more disappointed than mad. Bad decisions like this from a mag and an editor are NOT good for the shooting community no matter what happens.
On one hand you have "anti-gun" propaganda possibilities from what they posted and on the other you have a high potential magazine going down the shitter. Its just not good at all.
I'm more than just disappointed. I think it's because I've been disappointed so many times in the past by Ruger, Glock, S&W, etc. that now it just makes me angry.
I/WE should be allowed, nay...ENCOURAGED..to own ANY weapon that the police, or anyone outside U.S. Military service, owns.
NEVER should police have the capability to be more armed than a law abiding citizenry...NEVER.
And anybody in the firearms community, and Im quite sure the gent in question is a very educated person, should not believe or think or say otherwise. EVEN IF for some reason you really do think that, you oughtta know the ammo it gives to the antis every time this, or a ****in Zumbo...or Dumdo or whatever the other idiots name was, is
said by another gun owner.
We are our own worst enemy sometimes.
That's pretty much where I'm at.
thedownrangegirl
09-09-12, 21:28
I'm going to step in here with my two cents. I think it's difficult coming up with content for a magazine let alone one regarding firearms because (let's face it) this community is filled with not just opinionated people but vocal about their said opinions. I personally believe that being a supporter of the 2nd Amendment means supporting the other Amendments including the 1st. He has every right to state his opinion and you have every right to disagree with it.
With that said, in the past 48 hours I've watched the comments on FaceBook and here multiply, and right now I'm disappointed in the responses I'm reading. The majority of people have gone from zero to one hundred in seconds. This is exactly the irrational and emotive behavior the anti-gun community uses as their arguments to want stricter controls. You intentionally just reinterated their points.
unfortunately I think he drank HK's Kool-Aide in this article. Instead of articulating that it's a powerful firearm he illustrated that point by saying civilians shouldn't have it. Not good from a PR perspective. But, for people to start saying he's anti-2nd Amendment while he's writing and editing a firearm publication is, well, laughable. Let's also consider that this publication is in its infancy. There are bound to be mistakes, and content that we don't agree with. He's a small business owner and before you cut him off at the knees give pause.
We're all kind of placing the blame on the article right now but let's think about this. FN offered a semi-auto commercial version of their P90 PDW and no major outcry ensued primarily because FN met the commercial demand. Now, maybe HK is not interested in a commercial variant of the MP7-A1, or maybe this is all a great marketing ploy to drive demand? This incident has gotten people talking about their product, and showing that there is a demand for it. Now at what price to the consumer?
Just remember the forums and FaceBook are great to vent but sometimes venting ends up potentially driving up market pricing.
Oh, well. They did have some nice girls with guns pictures on their website.
At least all I have to do is delete from my iPad and not have to take out the trash.
justin_247
09-09-12, 21:31
Bull, he isn't anti-gun. Thinking the MP7 is useless for everyone isn't even close to being the same as anti-gun. The best case you could try to make is that he is against small full auto weapons being in the hands of everyone, which would still put him ahead of the NRA.
You obviously did not read what he said.
Boy, Jerry Tsai really pulled a Zumbo.
I posted this in another thread already but I'll post here as well.
It seems as though Silencerco is not too happy about what has corresponded. I foresee other companies following suit.
http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442
justin_247
09-09-12, 21:40
Just to clarify, so that people know what Jerry Tsai said:
"Like [sic] we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."
By Jerry Tsai's logic, all fully automatic weapons in civilian use should be banned. All weapons that are of a certain size and has "assault rifle capabilities" should be banned. Regular law-abiding civilian gun owners are no different than those with "wrong, slimy hands." Any weapon that does not have a "sporting application," whatever that means, should be banned.
Reading more of his comments, he also apparently knows very little about the capabilities of the MP7A1, and has little or no ability to cast a critical eye upon marketing material.
I posted this in another thread already but I'll post here as well.
It seems as though Silencerco is not too happy about what has corresponded. I foresee other companies following suit.
http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442
That's pro-active!
Straight Shooter
09-09-12, 21:48
Yeah, like "civvies" never need to "put down scumbags".
I swear, Im sitting here getting more pissed as time goes by.:mad:
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 21:50
Just to clarify, so that people know what Jerry Tsai said:
By Jerry Tsai's logic, all fully automatic weapons in civilian use should be banned. All weapons that are of a certain size and has "assault rifle capabilities" should be banned. Regular law-abiding civilian gun owners are no different than those with "wrong, slimy hands." Any weapon that does not have a "sporting application," whatever that means, should be banned.
Reading more of his comments, he also apparently knows very little about the capabilities of the MP7A1, and has little or no ability to cast a critical eye upon marketing material.
You are dead on! And anyone defending his words are in the same boat as far as Im concerned.
What a clown show. My wife actually point out this thread to me, and the Facebook thing (I don't go on FB, so please understand the pain commenting there and now here has caused me).
Firstly simmer down folks this is not a lynching. The Second Amendment protects the First, and anyone is free to have an opinion, this is what makes America great
Go back and read what Jerry actually wrote. Yes he is guilty of posting the Hk marketing tripe - but nothing he actually wrote says you should not have one, he does make a weak comment (once again parroting Hk's comments) but nothing to burn him or his magazine at the stake for.
Jerry is a nice guy, a relative newcomer to the gun world, and these are growing pains, not terminal cancer.
Frankly the Hk Mp7 to me is another one of the solutions looking for a problem, and Hk is doing a great job of marketing it. Who in their right mind would take .17HMR into a gunfight? Well look at 4.6x30mm... Several posters already pointed out that many other weapons are 9x more effective in the roles. Is it a fun gun to shoot, yeah it is, but its nothing to make a crisis of the first order, or try to destroy an infant magazine over.
Its a young magazine mistakes will be made --
Lets not forget where this started. It came from a HK sales rep who was a LEO for a few years, before medically retiring. HK has always been notorously antigun for civilians. New 416 purchases need to have another waiver signed promising the German government that none of the non controlled parts will end up in civilian hands, under penality of German law. The fact that the HK rep had a chance to filter their anti civie sales and didn't is fail #1. Fail #2 was on Recoil for not catching it and then trying to clarify their stance. Recoil gets what it has coming. It is a shame and embarrassing to LEO's that the HK rep has this mindset, escpecially with his background. If it wasn't for military sales HK would have been kaputt long ago.
Mauser KAR98K
09-09-12, 22:04
Well, that was a nice rag to read. WTF?!
HK: You suck and we hate you!
FN: We don't think so. Here, get one of our better 5.7mm weapons. You want it in pistol or rifle version?
Holland is eating this up, I bet. Good reparations after the Germans took the FN plant in WWII and made Browning Hi Powers without giving a single Mark for them.
thedownrangegirl: I'm going to step in here with my two cents. I think it's difficult coming up with content for a magazine let alone one regarding firearms because (let's face it) this community is filled with not just opinionated people but vocal about their said opinions. I personally believe that being a supporter of the 2nd Amendment means supporting the other Amendments including the 1st. He has every right to state his opinion and you have every right to disagree with it.
With that said, in the past 48 hours I've watched the comments on FaceBook and here multiply, and right now I'm disappointed in the responses I'm reading. The majority of people have gone from zero to one hundred in seconds. This is exactly the irrational and emotive behavior the anti-gun community uses as their arguments to want stricter controls. You intentionally just reinterated their points.
There is a very big difference between a "fanatic" that wants to keep their Constitutional rights vs a fanatic that wants to take away your Constitutional rights!
unfortunately I think he drank HK's Kool-Aide in this article. Instead of articulating that it's a powerful firearm he illustrated that point by saying civilians shouldn't have it. Not good from a PR perspective. But, for people to start saying he's anti-2nd Amendment while he's writing and editing a firearm publication is, well, laughable. Not really, there are many two faced people in business. Let's also consider that this publication is in its infancy. There are bound to be mistakes, and content that we don't agree with. He's a small business owner and before you cut him off at the knees give pause.
If this had been an established and vetted gun magazine, this "incident" could have been better tolerated. It appears that this business man has cut his own throat and possibly shown his true colors early on, which is a good thing.
We're all kind of placing the blame on the article right now but let's think about this. FN offered a semi-auto commercial version of their P90 PDW and no major outcry ensued primarily because FN met the commercial demand. Now, maybe HK is not interested in a commercial variant of the MP7-A1, or maybe this is all a great marketing ploy to drive demand? This incident has gotten people talking about their product, and showing that there is a demand for it. Now at what price to the consumer?
At the same time, the track record of HK to the civilian market has not been very positive from what I understand. Why would they start now?
Just remember the forums and FaceBook are great to vent but sometimes venting ends up potentially driving up market pricing.
On what economic model do you base this statement on. I can't ever recall when "venting" drove up OR down the price of any product. It's usually the satisfaction/dissatisfaction of the consumer. The best way to vote on a business is with your wallet!
justin_247
09-09-12, 22:06
Some more good points about Recoil...
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2012/09/09/two-reasons-why-recoil-magazine-actually-sucks/
I'll admit it again: I purchased the magazine to have something to thumb through while I'm waiting in my truck or sitting on the toilet. Pictures be pretty! When you're working on two masters degree classes at a time while also doing a full-time job, it's nice to have something to take your mind off things.
Too bad, I guess I'll have to go back to playing Angry Birds.
Traveshamockery
09-09-12, 22:08
But, for people to start saying he's anti-2nd Amendment while he's writing and editing a firearm publication is, well, laughable.
Most gun enthusiasts would consider the late Bill Ruger one of the antis, and he owned the country's biggest gun company. Jerry's editorial comments are very similar to Bill Ruger's much-maligned statements:
"No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun."
"I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round magazines or my folding stock."
"I see nothing wrong with waiting periods."
Bill Ruger helped craft (http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/papabill.html) what became the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.
There are lots of people who are fine with guns as long as they get to decide who can have them. Jerry's comment implies he's one of those.
Im done with compromise. There is no such thing in this debate. They stand to lose nothing, we stand to lose it all, piece by piece by piece.
A good policy and that is exactly what happens.
What a clown show. My wife actually point out this thread to me, and the Facebook thing (I don't go on FB, so please understand the pain commenting there and now here has caused me).
Firstly simmer down folks this is not a lynching. The Second Amendment protects the First, and anyone is free to have an opinion, this is what makes America great
Go back and read what Jerry actually wrote. Yes he is guilty of posting the Hk marketing tripe - but nothing he actually wrote says you should not have one, he does make a weak comment (once again parroting Hk's comments) but nothing to burn him or his magazine at the stake for.
Jerry is a nice guy, a relative newcomer to the gun world, and these are growing pains, not terminal cancer.
Frankly the Hk Mp7 to me is another one of the solutions looking for a problem, and Hk is doing a great job of marketing it. Who in their right mind would take .17HMR into a gunfight? Well look at 4.6x30mm... Several posters already pointed out that many other weapons are 9x more effective in the roles. Is it a fun gun to shoot, yeah it is, but its nothing to make a crisis of the first order, or try to destroy an infant magazine over.
Its a young magazine mistakes will be made --
This is exactly what I meant by this is negative regardless of what happens.
I would say that the majority disagrees with you.
I am sure there will be a retraction/clarification next issue or soon in their website.
Me thinks it's a tad too late for that.
Bull, he isn't anti-gun. Thinking the MP7 is useless for everyone isn't even close to being the same as anti-gun. The best case you could try to make is that he is against small full auto weapons being in the hands of everyone, which would still put him ahead of the NRA.
If that was what he said I would agree. However his statement was not along the lines of 'I think its useless for someone, but to each their own'. It was rather a quite clear 'I don't see a reason for you to own one therefore you should not be allowed to.' Those are two different worlds of thought. That mentality is what brought us that cluster **** in 94. That mentality was clearly anti-gun.
So you are telling me that Jerry Tsai writes, edits, copy edits, approves, prints, and distributes all of his own articles? I cant imagine it would be that way, since it takes a publishing team to make a magazine, and this publishing team is guilty.
I wouldn't go that far. Remember "the buck stops here" goes at the desk of the HMFIC, or in this case the head of the pblishing team, aka the editor.
Go **** yourself.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
You bet me to it JBecker!
I'll never read another article from recoil magazine again, and I hope you communist bastards never sell another issue.
JBecker 72
09-09-12, 22:26
What a clown show. My wife actually point out this thread to me, and the Facebook thing (I don't go on FB, so please understand the pain commenting there and now here has caused me).
Firstly simmer down folks this is not a lynching. The Second Amendment protects the First, and anyone is free to have an opinion, this is what makes America great
Go back and read what Jerry actually wrote. Yes he is guilty of posting the Hk marketing tripe - but nothing he actually wrote says you should not have one, he does make a weak comment (once again parroting Hk's comments) but nothing to burn him or his magazine at the stake for.
Jerry is a nice guy, a relative newcomer to the gun world, and these are growing pains, not terminal cancer.
Frankly the Hk Mp7 to me is another one of the solutions looking for a problem, and Hk is doing a great job of marketing it. Who in their right mind would take .17HMR into a gunfight? Well look at 4.6x30mm... Several posters already pointed out that many other weapons are 9x more effective in the roles. Is it a fun gun to shoot, yeah it is, but its nothing to make a crisis of the first order, or try to destroy an infant magazine over.
Its a young magazine mistakes will be made --
I respectfully disagree. If a company feels that the second amendment is a pick and choose civil right, then you will not get my business. I have serious reservations about spending money with KAC because of the companies anti CA resident stance. I also have reservations about Recoil magazine because of the editors stance on the second amendment and what it means.
It's a shame that people who are "pro gun" feel the need to restrict those they feel are beneath them. We need to be united on these issues rather than divided. Someone else already posted in this thread, we are our own worst enemy. How very true.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Go back and read what Jerry actually wrote. Yes he is guilty of posting the Hk marketing tripe - but nothing he actually wrote says you should not have one, he does make a weak comment (once again parroting Hk's comments) but nothing to burn him or his magazine at the stake for.
I wish I could agree with you...but after re-reading what he wrote, I just can't.
"We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on."
After that introduction, he goes on to talk about the gun's unusual mix of small size and power (for which I think he gives the gun far too much credit) and states, how he'd love to have one but because he respects law enforcement and doesn't want to endanger them, he is willing to subordinate his personal desires in the interest of perceived government agent safety. It's a textbook emotional appeal not at all dissimilar from true anti arguments against things like concealed carry, "high capacity" magazines and "assault weapons".
Regarding the first amendment...he is entitled to his opinion just as we all are as well. I know you know that though.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 22:34
I wouldn't go that far. Remember "the buck stops here" goes at the desk of the HMFIC, or in this case the head of the pblishing team, aka the editor.
Genuine question:
Is Tsai the Chief Editor, and how much stock does he own in Recoil?
I ask because my mother has been a publisher/chief editor/executive for a large magazine for over 20 years, and even she has bosses.
thedownrangegirl
09-09-12, 22:37
Listen guys, I think it's highly ironic that I'm the woman and telling men that they are being emotional and erratic.
With that said who gives corrections in pink an unreadable font color? I don't know if you're trying to emphasize that I'm female or just don't want anyone to easily read your comments.
You all are taking one comment and saying he's antigun. He does not have a history of it. When he has a history of it then go and boycott.
I can think of numerous more people that are a threat to the 2nd Amendment than Recoil Magazine. I think you should be expending energies on boycotting them than someone who is new at this.
Genuine question:
Is Tsai the Chief Editor, and how much stock does he own in Recoil?
I ask because my mother has been a publisher/chief editor/executive for a large magazine for over 20 years, and even she has bosses.
He is not Chief.
http://www.recoilweb.com/about/
theblackknight
09-09-12, 22:40
I noticed you deleted my comment on your page asking about whether or not you still support Recoil. It is apparent that you not only support the magazine, but also the comments as well.
People in the internet gun industry who's bottom line is directly tied to selling shit would never do such a thing. You are out of line.
I think most could have gotten past the shitty article. What caused the uproar was the editor's moronic comments on Facebook.
parishioner
09-09-12, 22:44
Listen guys, I think it's highly ironic that I'm the woman and telling men that they are being emotional and erratic.
With that said who gives corrections in pink an unreadable font color? I don't know if you're trying to emphasize that I'm female or just don't want anyone to easily read your comments.
You all are taking one comment and saying he's antigun. He does not have a history of it. When he has a history of it then go and boycott.
I can think of numerous more people that are a threat to the 2nd Amendment than Recoil Magazine. I think you should be expending energies on boycotting them than someone who is new at this.
History? They printed those statements then basically agreed with the statements in the "clarification". He apparently doesn't get it.
JBecker 72
09-09-12, 22:45
It's not about emotions, its about written words and personal stances that were further driven home in a later response.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
...With that said who gives corrections in pink an unreadable font color? I don't know if you're trying to emphasize that I'm female or just don't want anyone to easily read your comments...
I happen to be red/green color blind and Magenta, at the time, looked ok. In more ways than one, I don't see the same way you do....BTW, I was not correcting you I was countering your remarks.<< Is this better? Also, your being male or female has no meaning to me on a forum.
I would argue CA has an anti KAC attitude - not vice versa. But we can discuss this elsewhere. I'm not here in a/my KAC position in this thread.
Show me where Jerry stated he was against people having this? I saw him comment he would like to have one. I see where Hk's guy stated that, and I see where Jerry makes a comment about not wanting this gun in the hands of wrong doers, and frankly I don't think any sane individual wants guns in those hands, but any sane man (I don't think there are sane women :p) understands that even if Hk where not to allow this to be sold commercially (in a semi-auto variant) that eventually some wicked fellow would get one.
Fact of the matter is that the Mp7's are a post 86 MG, and not legal for civilian ownership, now I don't like the MG ban, I think it sucks, but it is in place. Jerry tried to do an article on a 'sexy gun' a gun that due to the laws, very few folks outside of LE/MIL circle get to shoot (other than someone playing video games in their moms basement).
If anything I think that is catering to the Firearms enthusiast by bringing them something that most people cannot play with otherwise. The downside to that, is that he needed to get with the Manufacturer - and they no doubt got a part in the script.
We have a million enemies - and to try to destroy someone for an ill conceived comment, and not try to educate, to me is just totally absurd, as we end up making more enemies, and empowering them.
Just my $0.02
MountainRaven
09-09-12, 22:57
Some mistakes are more forgivable than others.
In a magazine, a typo is an easily forgivable error. An improperly captioned photo is an easily forgivable error.
Making a very public display of where you allegedly stand in politics, because you copy-pasted someone's PR sheet? Not so much. What they have done is akin to writing about the benefits of a single-party government by simply quoting Mein Kampf, without citation in a journal that claims to be dedicated to the preservation and promotion of representative democracy, and published for a primarily Israeli readership.
And then they failed to do an adequate job of apologizing for their misdeed. They are, in essence, trying to have it both ways: They meant what they said, but they didn't really mean what they said. They'd love to have one, but they believe that if they could have one, it would lead to anarchy and countless dead cops.
I am very fond of my Constitutionally protected rights. But just as you would not claim the protection of the First Amendment for someone who insulted a returning serviceman's mother to his face and wound up in the hospital with a broken nose, jaw, and fractured ribs, neither can you claim the protection of the First Amendment for people who semi-intentionally/ignorantly insult their intended readership and lose subscribers while getting lambasted in public. You are not and can never be, free from the consequences of your actions, whether that is in the exercise of a God-given right or not.
Frankly, the most appalling thing is that many people who will gleefully dump Recoil magazine over the opinion of the editors, will gobble up with equal glee lies passed off as facts by other publications.
Listen guys, I think it's highly ironic that I'm the woman and telling men that they are being emotional and erratic.
With that said who gives corrections in pink an unreadable font color? I don't know if you're trying to emphasize that I'm female or just don't want anyone to easily read your comments.
You all are taking one comment and saying he's antigun. He does not have a history of it. When he has a history of it then go and boycott.
I can think of numerous more people that are a threat to the 2nd Amendment than Recoil Magazine. I think you should be expending energies on boycotting them than someone who is new at this.
He could have gotten away with saying that civilians shouldn't have them if he hadn't brought up sporting purposes.
I'm not emotional about this but people that put wedges in our community that can be exploited by our adversaries need to be cast out. His clarification just made it worse.
The downside to that, is that he needed to get with the Manufacturer - and they no doubt got a part in the script.
Just my $0.02
Im willing to bet their is alot more truth in your statement than most people are willing to understand let alone become cognizant of in the first place.
Hopefully an sufficient resolution to this debacle will come to be.
Show me where Jerry stated he was against people having this?
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of."
MountainRaven
09-09-12, 23:08
Im willing to bet their is alot more truth in your statement than most people are willing to understand let alone become cognizant of in the first place.
Hopefully an sufficient resolution to this debacle will come to be.
I don't think that's a problem at all.
We all read, or have read, Guns & Ammo and a dozen other gun rags. Only the willfully ignorant would not notice how much play the firearm manufacturer gets in the writing of articles showcasing their new products. The difference, here, is that almost none of those other gun rags would have printed anything suggesting that something like the MP7A1 should not be available to their readership.
ETA: It would have been easy enough for them to tell H&K that they would only take a neutral stance on the subject, not one pandering to H&K's PC masters in Germany. It shouldn't be hard, they didn't say anything about how the MP7A1 shouldn't be allowed in civilian hands on Future Weapons. And if H&K won't play ball, take the ball and go play in FN's court. Larry Vickers might even have a sample that they could play with.
JBecker 72
09-09-12, 23:10
I suggest re reading the article and following response if that is how you feel about it. It seems clear to me his response was that us lowly civilians are not to be trusted with this technology.
I would argue CA has an anti KAC attitude - not vice versa. But we can discuss this elsewhere. I'm not here in a/my KAC position in this thread.
Fair enough. PM inbound on that.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Pantaeo Productions just posted the following:
To the Panteao Online Subscribers and DVD viewers:
I learned today about the article in the latest issue of RECOIL magazine on the HK MP7A1, or more specifically the comment within the article by the editor pertaining to who should own an MP7A1. I also saw the follow up in their Facebook page explaining their reasoning behind the editorial.
Panteao Productions has a very clear position when it comes to the Second Amendment. We do not agree with the opinion of the editor from RECOIL magazine and I am personally very disappointed that he would make such a statement about what he views as a firearm that should not be getting into the “wrong hands”. I would have expected that kind of ignorant comment coming from someone not in the firearms community or from one of the anti-gun organizations.
Until such time that the staff of RECOIL magazine changes their view on firearm ownership and the Second Amendment, Panteao Productions will be discontinuing all scheduled ads in their print publication and website and requesting that all Panteao video content be removed from their website.
I hope that someone at RECOIL magazine steps up and issues a formal apology to the firearms community. They have a great concept for their magazine and it would be a shame to see it go away. The ball is in their court with regards to how they handle their mishap.
Thank you for your continued support of Panteao Productions.
Fernando Coelho
President/CEO
Panteao Productions LLC
parishioner
09-09-12, 23:50
The latest attempt:
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/jordandalleman/photo-40.png
What a joke of a non-statement. Does this guy even know what he's talking about? "I was just passing on information given to me." Spineless and stupid. That's clearly revisionist history and anybody who can read knows better. He MAYBE could have salvaged the situation by explaining why his thought process was flawed and detailing how he came to understand that his previous statements were in error. I maybe could have viewed him with some respect and understanding, depending on how sincere he was. But nope, he pretends that he never implied what he clearly did. Weak. As for the issue at the core of the controversy:
If police can have it, I want it too. Nothing less than civilian / police parity. Period. I realize that may be an unpopular position, but it's for an obvious reason.
How many times must it be proven that those who sacrifice freedom for security will wind up with neither? Seriously - how many?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-09-12, 23:56
People in the internet gun industry who's bottom line is directly tied to selling shit would never do such a thing. You are out of line.
I wasnt aware the constitution could only be supported if it didnt hurt your bottom line.
The latest attempt:
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/jordandalleman/photo-40.png
I'm sorry BUT what you said was presented with PERFECT clarity the first time, it has even MORE CLARITY when you re-clarified your position "in your own words."
Your attempt to dismiss this as "unfortunate information provided to you" only makes it worse. In the first instance it suggests that as editor you basically have no real comprehension or appreciation for what you write. In the second instances it assumes everyone is a ****ing retard and is willing to believe that when you personally addressed the initial objection you didn't attempt to explain it in your own words based upon your beliefs.
So to CLARIFY, this is not about you stating that these weapons are only available for "official use" this is about you clarifying YOUR POSITION that you think that is proper.
You'd have been better off with this.
"Dear Internet, I wrote an opinion that I didn't really think about because it sounded reasonable. After receiving many, many corrections I now understand that I am an asshole who was being "part of the problem."
I'm sorry, I get it now, I won't do it again. Thanks for setting me straight.
Please feel free to borrow this.
While we are at it.
**** Leapers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/justincan/xia.jpg
His Linkedin - http://www.linkedin.com/pub/john-xia/27/7a9/75a
Leapers FB page - https://www.facebook.com/Leapers
Leapers email - office@leapers.com
Reagans Rascals
09-10-12, 00:26
That would hardly be HKs fault.
Import of foreign machine guns is prohibited by the 1968 GCA.
If HK manufactured it domestically it would be prohibited by FOPA 86.
Importation of a semi automatic version would be banned by the 1989 import ban.
Domestic manufacture of a semi auto would be subject to ATF approval and it is unlikely they'd ever approve a civilian anything chambered in the 4.6mm caliber.
Best we could get is a neutered version in a civilian 4.6mm round that would be as anemic as the civilian 5.7mm round and HK probably knows that would hardly be enough sales to justify the effort.
and what if H&k manufactured a semi-auto only (auto sear position removed) SBR here at H&k USA?
I would think if it was a form 1 SBR... registered from the start it would be acceptable by ATF standards... but then again like you said the ammo would likely suffer just as the 5.7 so who knows...
perhaps one day someone will just offer a clone... or a "body kit" around a glock or .22 like the ones they offer for the 10/22 that look like the Magpul PDW... not the same... but we could all at least "pretend" since that's all we civies do anyways right?
Straight Shooter
09-10-12, 00:29
You know...gonna be hard to boycott Leapers..CAUSE I DONT BUY THEIR SHITTY, CHEAP, SHODDY, AIRSOFT, xxxxx-MADE, JUNKY,
GOOD-FOR-NOTHIN SHIT ANYWAY.
He can go **** HIMSELF.
Reagans Rascals
09-10-12, 00:30
While we are at it.
**** Leapers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/justincan/xia.jpg
that's funny.... considering the only LE/MIL unit in the entire US using one is DEVGRU... and Matt Bissonnette even clarifies it in NO EASY DAY and says its only good for close-in quiet engagements...and lacks the "knock-down power" of the traditional 5.56....
so why is everyone acting like its a game changer.... I think they've all been playing Battlefield 3 waayyy too much and buying into the hype...
I'd like to have one simply because I appreciate it and its mechanics and the round itself, but I'm sure the whole "you can't have it" stigma doesn't help the desire..... I'm more than sure if everyone could have one right now... and it wasn't taboo... many people would be left wanting.... I myself included.... and simply just transition back to their 5.56's....
but who knows... I'm just a lowly gun enthusiast
You know...gonna be hard to boycott Leapers..CAUSE I DONT BUY THEIR SHITTY, CHEAP, SHODY, AIRSOFT, CHINK-MADE, JUNKY,
GOOD-FOR-NOTHIN SHIT ANYWAY.
He can go **** HIMSELF.
I'm just passing along the information. I think you pretty much covered it.
:laugh:
that's funny.... considering the only LE/MIL unit in the entire US using one is DEVGRU... and Matt Bissonnette even clarifies it in NO EASY DAY and says its only good for close-in quiet engagements...and lacks the "knock-down power" of the traditional 5.56....
so why is everyone acting like its a game changer.... I think they've all been playing Battlefield 3 waayyy too much and buying into the hype...
I'd like to have one simply because I appreciate it and its mechanics and the round itself, but I'm sure the whole "you can't have it" stigma doesn't help the desire..... I'm more than sure if everyone could have one right now... and it wasn't taboo... many people would be left wanting.... I myself included.... and simply just transition back to their 5.56's....
but who knows... I'm just a lowly gun enthusiast
It's that way with most things.
NOBODY actually wanted HK rifles with collapsible stocks during the 80s because they weighed a ton and sucked. But after 10 years of the Clinton ban EVERYTHING had to have a collapsible / folding stock.
Rest assured that IF HK thought there was money to be made developing an ATF approved 4.6mm "civie" round there would be a MP7 pistol on the market.
I really, really appreciate FN doing their best to offer the 5.7mm handguns and carbines, but honestly the civie version of the ammo is a "hot" .22 magnum. It's expensive and really doesn't do anything very useful. The military version of the ammo would make the civilian firearms extremely useful for many things but that isn't up to FN to decide.
I'm pretty sure the people at HK can see that example and figure out it isn't cost effective. I just wish they'd have decided to make the USC and SL8 domestically so they wouldn't be so horribly neutered.
crowkiller
09-10-12, 01:03
Go back and read what Jerry actually wrote. --
I did and its sad all around. I acctually kind of feel for the guy right now but Jerry stands accountable for his words, his view and his actions whether agreeing with the HK rep or not he should take responsiblity for what he wrote, passing the the buck to HK is weak and lame. I personally wont be buying any issues of Recoil. ETA: I hope he can work this out and convince the gun community he was wrong and changed. I hate to see things go down like this.
polymorpheous
09-10-12, 01:07
What a shame.
Guess I won't be buying their magazine any longer.
I hope BCM, DD and others pull their advertising dollars from them.
A second non apologetic apology was published this evening...
I’d like to address the comments regarding what I wrote in the MP7A1 article in RECOIL issue 4. First and foremost, I’d like to apologize for any offense that I have caused with the article. With the benefit of hindsight, I now understand the outrage, and I am greatly saddened that it was initiated by my words. Especially since, I am an unwavering supporter of 2nd Amendment Rights. I’ve chosen to spend a significant part of both my personnel and professional life immersed in this enthusiasm, so to have my support of individuals’ rights called into doubt is extremely unfortunate. With that said, I retract what I wrote in the offending paragraph within this article. It should have had been presented with more clarity.
In the article, I stated some information that was passed on to me about why the gun is not available for civilian purchase. By no means did I intend to imply that civilians are not responsible, nor do we lack the judgment to own such weapons, if I believed anything approaching this, clearly I would lead a much different life. I also mentioned in the article that the gun had no sporting purpose. This again, was information passed on to me and reported in the article without the necessary additional context. I believe everything published in RECOIL up to this point (other than this story), demonstrates we clearly understand and completely agree that guns do not need to have a sporting purpose in order for them to be rightfully available to civilians. In retrospect, I should have presented this information in a clearer manner. Although I can understand the manufacturer’s stance on the subject, it doesn’t mean that I agree with it.
Again, I acknowledge the mistakes I made and for them I am truly sorry.
Sincerely,
Jerry Tsai
Editor
RECOIL
Moose-Knuckle
09-10-12, 01:35
that's funny.... considering the only LE/MIL unit in the entire US using one is DEVGRU... and Matt Bissonnette even clarifies it in NO EASY DAY and says its only good for close-in quiet engagements...and lacks the "knock-down power" of the traditional 5.56....
Glad someone brought this up.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/noeasyday.png
As for RECOIL and Jerry Tsai . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/****-you-oragutan.jpg
They just committed professional suicide.
There is no reason to have one of those (AR15), you can't hunt with them.
-- paraphrase of Jim Zumbo blog just before Remington announced the R15
Is there any serious person in the gun universe that still:
A) does not understand that sporting purposes has nothing to do with 2A?
B) does not realize gun enthusiasts will create a sport with ANY gun?! Plastic, blackpowder, Zombie chainsaw lowers? Does a P3AT have a sporting purpose?
C) does not remember the "I was dead tired and said something stupid, of course I love the 2A that's why in my fatigue I ranted against one of the most popular rifles of all time," by Zumbo? Don't they teach this as a full year case study at Gun Writer University?
Should someone that unaware be allowed to own such dangerous weapons that have no other purpose than to propel bullets out the muzzle?!
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 08:31
I stand by my original statement in its entirety.
Kev, I'm a little disappointed by you sort of defending this guy.
Again, I acknowledge the mistakes I made and for them I am truly sorry.
Sincerely,
Jerry Tsai
Editor
RECOIL"
Translated: "I am a supporter of the 2A, I just don't understand it very well."
It's always sad and surprising how many self proclaimed "unwavering supporter of 2nd Amendment Rights" don't actually "get it" at all. Sporting uses indeed...
Still, at least an attempt is being made to right that wrong. I'm not going to bother picking apart the above for logic and consistency, but it exposes a serious lack of knowledge on the topic, and some very lazy journalism practices. Shame on you Jerry.
Never heard of the publication 'till this dust up, and I doubt I will be searching it out after this either.
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 08:51
I noticed you deleted my comment on your page asking about whether or not you still support Recoil. It is apparent that you not only support the magazine, but also the comments as well.
I'm noticing a trend here. The people saying "take it easy on him" are in the industry...because they're thinking 'There, but for the grace of God go I'.
To those guys, I would say this: If you're here just to make money, and you don't really believe that citizens should have access to any and every mother****ing weapon and device the military and police have access to, then you need to KEEP YOUR ****ING MOUTH SHUT when you have an opportunity to publicly express your opinion.
You're free to believe what you want to believe. But you are NOT free to actively injure your customer base (and make no mistake about it, when you pull a Zumbo, you hurt us badly no matter how much you apologize later - Zumbo's bullshit will be used against us now and forever in the battle for public opinion....and ol' Jerry just handed Sarah Brady a shiny new weapon on a silver platter.) with no economic consequences. If you're not really one of us, you don't get it, so I'm going to spell it out clearly for those of you who have yet to have their own Tsai Moment:
This shit would be like the guy who owns FUBU coming out and saying in an interview that he really doesn't like n----ers. Do you think he might suffer an economic backlash as a result?
We have enough people trying to **** us, we don't need any Benedict Arnolds.
I'm noticing a trend here. The people saying "take it easy on him" are in the industry...because they're thinking 'There, but for the grace of God go I'.
To those guys, I would say this: If you're here just to make money, and you don't really believe that citizens should have access to any and every mother****ing weapon and device the military and police have access to, then you need to KEEP YOUR ****ING MOUTH SHUT when you have an opportunity to publicly express your opinion.
You're free to believe what you want to believe. But you are NOT free to actively injure your customer base (and make no mistake about it, when you pull a Zumbo, you hurt us badly no matter how much you apologize later - Zumbo's bullshit will be used against us now and forever in the battle for public opinion....and ol' Jerry just handed Sarah Brady a shiny new weapon on a silver platter.) with no economic consequences. If you're not really one of us, you don't get it, so I'm going to spell it out clearly for those of you who have yet to have their own Tsai Moment:
This shit would be like the guy who owns FUBU coming out and saying in an interview that he really doesn't like n----ers. Do you think he might suffer an economic backlash as a result?
We have enough people trying to **** us, we don't need any Benedict Arnolds.
While I generally agree with most of your sentiments (civilians should definately have access to police weapons; military I'm not yet sure), I'll be interested to see how the mods and site admin respond to the portions in red. On one hand, they help pay the site bills and I'm not so sure that site members get to tell them to STFU. On the other hand, much of what you say has merit even though your delivery was more "colorful" than I prefer. ;)
NinjaMedic
09-10-12, 10:10
May not have been said with grace but QuietShooter's comments seem to sum up lot of people's feelings regarding this.
Reagans Rascals
09-10-12, 10:37
any and every mother****ing weapon and device the military and police have access to
sorry... but you need to add the qualifier... "within reason"....
Personally I don't want every swinging dick on the block having access to N.B.C. type weapons or even MANPADS or ****in Drones... I think we should all be allowed to own whatever small arms we like... but should anyone and everyone who is allowed to purchase firearms be allowed to own FIM-92's and Javelins?....
I mean come on.... they have no sporting purpose.... :secret:
Wow just saw this, Jer really stepped in it. I shoot with some of the writers once in a while. Don't know them super well, but we've talked about RECOIL. Now it looks like their 1st shot at writing for gun mags is all shot to hell. Won't be buying RECOIL anymore.
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 11:01
sorry... but you need to add the qualifier... "within reason"....
Personally I don't want every swinging dick on the block having access to N.B.C. type weapons or even MANPADS or ****in Drones... I think we should all be allowed to own whatever small arms we like... but should anyone and everyone who is allowed to purchase firearms be allowed to own FIM-92's and Javelins?....
I mean come on.... they have no sporting purpose.... :secret:
Let's not derail this thread. If you want to start another one, I'll be happy to debate what I meant by that with you.
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 11:10
May not have been said with grace but QuietShooter's comments seem to sum up lot of people's feelings regarding this.
I write for a living. You want tact and grace, that costs extra. Free, you get unfiltered, cask strength, corporatese-free prose. Plus, being all mealymouthed PC/politician-speak about this doesn't bring clarity to the point or adequately express the strong feeling behind it.
sinlessorrow
09-10-12, 11:18
I'm going to step in here with my two cents. I think it's difficult coming up with content for a magazine let alone one regarding firearms because (let's face it) this community is filled with not just opinionated people but vocal about their said opinions. I personally believe that being a supporter of the 2nd Amendment means supporting the other Amendments including the 1st. He has every right to state his opinion and you have every right to disagree with it.
With that said, in the past 48 hours I've watched the comments on FaceBook and here multiply, and right now I'm disappointed in the responses I'm reading. The majority of people have gone from zero to one hundred in seconds. This is exactly the irrational and emotive behavior the anti-gun community uses as their arguments to want stricter controls. You intentionally just reinterated their points.
unfortunately I think he drank HK's Kool-Aide in this article. Instead of articulating that it's a powerful firearm he illustrated that point by saying civilians shouldn't have it. Not good from a PR perspective. But, for people to start saying he's anti-2nd Amendment while he's writing and editing a firearm publication is, well, laughable. Let's also consider that this publication is in its infancy. There are bound to be mistakes, and content that we don't agree with. He's a small business owner and before you cut him off at the knees give pause.
We're all kind of placing the blame on the article right now but let's think about this. FN offered a semi-auto commercial version of their P90 PDW and no major outcry ensued primarily because FN met the commercial demand. Now, maybe HK is not interested in a commercial variant of the MP7-A1, or maybe this is all a great marketing ploy to drive demand? This incident has gotten people talking about their product, and showing that there is a demand for it. Now at what price to the consumer?
Just remember the forums and FaceBook are great to vent but sometimes venting ends up potentially driving up market pricing.
When did the MP7 become a powerful weapon? A 10.5" AR-15 with M855 would penetrate better than the MP7, its a weapon for a very specific set of requirements, certainly not the rifle I would be most scared of being in the wrong hands.
People can say what they want, I support his freedom of press, that doesn't mean I agree or will ever buy their magazine again. The statement is clearly from someone who is anti-gun, I mean cmon he used the sporting clause.......
To kevinB, here is the proof he thinks we shouldnt have it
Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of.
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 11:25
While I generally agree with most of your sentiments (civilians should definately have access to police weapons; military I'm not yet sure), I'll be interested to see how the mods and site admin respond to the portions in red. On one hand, they help pay the site bills and I'm not so sure that site members get to tell them to STFU. On the other hand, much of what you say has merit even though your delivery was more "colorful" than I prefer. ;)
This is not a democracy. If Grant wants to restrict comments like that, he is certainly within his rights to do so.
But don't forget: WE pay THEIR bills. If a particular gun rag or manufacturer wants to get high-handed with their customer base, that's a business decision, just like ol' Jerry's business decision to post that stupid article. Will it cost them? I don't know - and more importantly, neither do they. Grant started this site precisely because the advertisers were getting too much power over content on Arfcom. It would be a bad business decision on his part to allow them any sway over content here. This is big boy rules - if you don't like what someone says, either tell them to **** off, or leave, but the hallmark of this site has always been that the truth would be spoken regardless of what manufacturer it offends. To screw with that would remove what makes this site any different from the thousands of other sites where 'thou shalt not tell the truth about a product if it offends an advertiser'. Come on, guys. We're supposed to be above that shit.
The smart thing to do would be to take my advice, sit down, STFU, and take the money. Some guys can't do that - they have to WIN, even if it means losing business.
I write for a living. You want tact and grace, that costs extra. Free, you get unfiltered, cask strength, corporatese-free prose. Plus, being all mealymouthed PC/politician-speak about this doesn't bring clarity to the point or adequately express the strong feeling behind it.
If you write for a living then why are you so poor at articulation? I mean really, you sound like the equivalent of someone who hits a punching bag is his basement, beats up his little brother and then goes around bragging he is an accomplished MMA fighter.
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 11:33
If you write for a living then why are you so poor at articulation? I mean really, you sound like the equivalent of someone who hits a punching bag is his basement, beats up his little brother and then goes around bragging he is an accomplished MMA fighter.
Just to piss you off, Vinnie.
justin_247
09-10-12, 11:42
Jerry is a nice guy, a relative newcomer to the gun world, and these are growing pains, not terminal cancer.
If Jerry is a "relative newcomer to the gun world," he has absolutely no business running his mouth about these issues, much less being an editor of a gun magazine.
justin_247
09-10-12, 11:52
From Haley Strategic Partners:
The Haley Strategic Partners team was disappointed to learn of an article and later, public comments, made by a editor at Recoil Magazine which indicated certain weapon systems were not suitable to be possessed or operated by responsible members of the American public. We take issue with this.
At Haley Strategic, we choose to train responsible citizens, law enforcement officers and military professionals in our courses ranging from basic to advanced Disruptive Environments. In short, we help Americans prepare. Weapons systems are tools. Tools built to preserve lives in life threatening situations. There is no reason to prevent responsible citizens from utilizing any tools that will improve their odds of surviving such an event.
We take this very seriously. Every person in at Haley Strategic believes that, as Americans, it is our responsibility to be prepared, both mentally and physically, for worst case events, whether they happen to ourselves and our loved ones, or innocent people caught in an unfolding tragedy.
As such, Haley Strategic Partners will indefinitely suspend all advertising and collaborative efforts with both Recoil Magazine and RecoilWeb.com.
From what I know about HK, I really think that Jerry was simply stating HK's thoughts on the subject (like word for word).
For those of you that are not familiar with Euro Gun Manufacturers, they think it is WRONG that Civy's can buy just about ANYTHING they make. IMHO, if HK could stay in business by ONLY selling to LE/Mil, they would do it.
Should he (Jerry) NOT have stated HK's stance on the subject or passed it off as a fact? For certain. Lesson learned for him....
C4
Show me where Jerry stated he was against people having this? I saw him comment he would like to have one.
It's right there in the original statement.
http://madogre.com/?p=3382
“Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on."
Like I said before, he could have survived the first thing he wrote but he's still digging.
He might be a great guy. But that doesn't matter. He said something that is a threat to us. He has to be brought in line or expelled. Which is his call and he's headed for the latter.
you sound like
In point of fact, he doesn't SOUND like anything in a print medium.
No printed word makes any noise, ergo anything typed or written would READ like something something...
So, instead of doing a pot/kettle over who does or does not articulate themselves well, you can stop needlesly sharpshooting and he can stop chest-beating over what an eeeeeextreeeeeeme....typist....he is. Take the interpersonal stuff to PMs, like you both KNOW you're supposed to do.
Everybody can pull back on posting f-bombs just because you feel like typing them out. The limits on pointed vs. pointless swearing was surpassed by the middle of Page 2, and this is not a cursing competition.
I think that Jerry forgot his audience. He wrote that article for the gun buying public - people who buy one or two guns per decade. These people probably agree with what he said to the letter. The gun buying public represent that vast majority of gun owners and the NRA in that they own guns, but are not really tuned in on 2nd Amendment issues. When faced with the "sporting purpose" argument, they try and take the high ground and actually play the anti's game by claiming that semi-auto weapons serve a sporting purpose with 3-Gun matches, high-power rifle competition IDPA, etc.
Well, Jerry just learned that the gun buying public is very different than the gun reading public. The gun reading public is much more aware of 2nd Amendment issues. Many of these readers would not know a "sport" if it bit them in the ass. They freely admit that the purpose of their weapons are to kill agents of the government (be they federal or local) who would curtail their sense of liberty. The gun reading public, while a minority of gun owners, are the majority of Jerry's readers and the customers for his sponsors. I suspect that this will be a painful and costly lesson for him.
From what I know about HK, I really think that Jerry was simply stating HK's thoughts on the subject (like word for word).
For those of you that are not familiar with Euro Gun Manufacturers, they think it is WRONG that Civy's can buy just about ANYTHING they make. IMHO, if HK could stay in business by ONLY selling to LE/Mil, they would do it.
Should he (Jerry) NOT have stated HK's stance on the subject or passed it off as a fact? For certain. Lesson learned for him....
C4
If he really did just say "This is what HK thinks", I don't think you'd see the firestorm that there currently is. But the fact of the matter is that in his first explanation that he posted on Facebook, he expresses ideological agreement with that stance and defends that stance in the name of the safety of police etc. That is what people have a problem with.
30 cal slut
09-10-12, 13:02
Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of…
:secret:
http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1508677/000095012311034357/x88534b3e424b3.htm
Page 16:
...our weapon systems are designed to kill...
http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/Boards/760/22760/379510.gif
[/quote]
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 13:11
I think that Jerry forgot his audience. He wrote that article for the gun buying public - people who buy one or two guns per decade. These people probably agree with what he said to the letter. The gun buying public represent that vast majority of gun owners and the NRA in that they own guns, but are not really tuned in on 2nd Amendment issues. When faced with the "sporting purpose" argument, they try and take the high ground and actually play the anti's game by claiming that semi-auto weapons serve a sporting purpose with 3-Gun matches, high-power rifle competition IDPA, etc.
Well, Jerry just learned that the gun buying public is very different than the gun reading public. The gun reading public is much more aware of 2nd Amendment issues. Many of these readers would not know a "sport" if it bit them in the ass. They freely admit that the purpose of their weapons are to kill agents of the government (be they federal or local) who would curtail their sense of liberty. The gun reading public, while a minority of gun owners, are the majority of Jerry's readers and the customers for his sponsors. I suspect that this will be a painful and costly lesson for him.
Jerry didn't forget chit. This is El Patron: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Burkle
Rich lefty arsehole. This is about money, nothing more. They don't care a fart in a tornado for the 2nd Amendment.
CaptainDooley
09-10-12, 13:17
All I need to know about him is summed up in the line, "Ron has received numerous honors and awards from [organized] labor..."
I will not be supporting Recoil magazine or Jerry Tsai due to their anti-2nd Amendment stance.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/421628_10151146472514158_1122591005_n.jpg
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 14:07
Guess I'm not the only one who gets it. From the Dump Recoil FB page:
This is classic: Thanks Leo Daher & Harold Garcia!!!
Dude named Harold Garcia wrote this in reply to Jerry Tsai's latest "explanation" - I thought it was cool enough to share here:
'Let me translate.
"I don't really know shit about the second amendment. I'm a 'gear guy' which means I like cool shiny expensive things, and I like to spend a lot of money on neato gadgets and tinkering with things and customizing them. But a tricked out Civic with a coffee can muffler that makes farting noises can only make you feel like so much of a man, dig? So me and all my buddies loved how much we could build airsoft guns that were just like what we had in COD, and one day we figured, hey, if airsoft can be this cool I bet real guns are even cooler!
So I started buying expensive guns and knives and 'kit' and playing with it and tinkering with it and researching on the internet what 'kit' was the best 'kit'. When you are a gear guy like me, that's what you call it. You call it 'kit' Anyway, our parent company, which doesn't really give a shit about guns or the 2A realized that this was a lifestyle, so they started a 'lifestyle' magazine and I got the job as the editor.
We did pretty much OK for the first few issues, people like gun porn and gear porn, and we have good photographers who know how lighting and shit works, even got a few passable articles printed.
Then, I said something pretty dumb, which demonstrated that I was pretty much just the editor of a gun porn lifestyle magazine, and not actually someone who understood anything about the 2A or who the established base of gun owners in the US actually is. A few people got upset about what I said. Someone else called me a 'Zumbo.' I wasn't even sure what a Zumbo is. I googled that, and read some Wikipedia article and it sounds like this guy upset a lot of people and lost his job or something.
So I figured, hey, that's not what I need to happen to me, I'd better explain what I really meant. I explained what I really meant, and that made people even more upset. No idea why.
So now, I'm writing this letter, because either I'm too stupid to understand what happened, or I think you are too stupid to understand that I don't understand what happened. All I know is that as long as I say I'm an 'unwavering supporter' everything will be OK. Even though everything I said before that was actually –– wavering.
Fact is I still don't know shit about the 2A or my potential customer base. Neither does my parent company. They never cared in the first place. They wanted to launch a lifestyle magazine to make some money, and they probably would have made some money if I hadn't gone and ****ed it all up.
The whole operation is going to fold before it even gets off the ground, and it's all because of me. I'll get fired, or resign, but it won't matter. People just aren't going to buy the magazine no matter what now. I'll go back to writing about hatchbacks with fart sounding coffee can mufflers, the parent company will try to learn from this lesson and regroup and maybe try again some day with a different name. Life will still go on for everyone. I just better not show my face at that SHOT show. Which is fine with me, because I didn't even know what the SHOT show was before today."'
CarlosDJackal
09-10-12, 14:12
IMHO, this just verifies what I have suspected of RECOIL all along - that they regurgitate things without conducting an objective analysis and formulating their own opinion. This is why I have only purchased a single issue and have not had the urge to purchase a subscription.
Like it or not they published that they agree with HK's policy of anti-civilian gun ownership. Despite what the HK fanboys are insisting, they have and still do have such a policy. JM2CW.
If he really did just say "This is what HK thinks", I don't think you'd see the firestorm that there currently is. But the fact of the matter is that in his first explanation that he posted on Facebook, he expresses ideological agreement with that stance and defends that stance in the name of the safety of police etc. That is what people have a problem with.
He is not going to throw a big name company like HK under the bus.
What he should have done is just not printed what they think or said.
C4
From what I know about HK, I really think that Jerry was simply stating HK's thoughts on the subject (like word for word).
For those of you that are not familiar with Euro Gun Manufacturers, they think it is WRONG that Civy's can buy just about ANYTHING they make. IMHO, if HK could stay in business by ONLY selling to LE/Mil, they would do it.
Should he (Jerry) NOT have stated HK's stance on the subject or passed it off as a fact? For certain. Lesson learned for him....
C4
The problem with this idea is that he supposedly stated HK's opinion, which when read in print sounded very much like his own personal opinion. Then he threw gas on the fire with his FB posts by "clarifying" that he did in fact agree with HK's stance on the subject. No matter what he thought about the subject, for the good of the magazine and 2A rights as a whole, he would have been well advised to avoid the topic completely. Instead he left his ignorance hanging out for everyone to see by jumping on the HK bandwagon and adopting their opinion as his own.
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He is not going to throw a big name company like HK under the bus.
What he should have done is just not printed what they think or said.
C4
Bingo!
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BrigandTwoFour
09-10-12, 14:52
I picked up my issue from the book store back on Friday, before any of this happened. I read, and cringed, at the article in question. I scratched my head at the bullshit "response" to the comments they were getting. This is clearly a magazine (and editor, specifically) who doesn't understand their audience.
To me, that's what all of this amounts to. It's a severe miscalculation of the audience by a writer/editor (since the editor was the writer of the article, who likely didn't run it by anyone else who could pointed out that he should say the things he said) who just didn't know any better. And, given that he grew up in CA, I can see how he didn't realize that this response would come.
That said, I still have hope for the magazine. When it started, the biggest complaint was that it wasn't staffed by "gun guys." Well, that's true. It was staffed by a bunch of geardos who had a what they thought was a good idea to try and make firearms look mainstream and capture a younger market, something that I perceived as a good thing. The lack of "gun guys," I figured, would work itself out.
For example, since I'm sure most of you haven't actually read it, this issue has a great article by Stickman about Noveske's 300 BLK SBR. There are articles about pieces of gear that many people on here would like to know more about, or at least have an interest in, that isn't typically covered by any other print publication. These are good things, they create an audience. As basic as some of the articles are, it gets our hobby out there and gets people talking.
Whether or not they survive this incident remains to be seen. Gun people, almost more so than any other group I've seen, would rather hold severe grudges until the end of time rather than offer a hand to help re-educate someone who just didn't know any better. The fact that Jim Zumbo's name is now forever written into black rifle lore is an example of this.
The magazine wants to make money. The writers want to keep their jobs. Gun people want pretty pictures and articles they can show their friends. It would be great to have another magazine that did these things all the while being written by real "gun people." But that magazine doesn't exist, so the best we have is trying to teach the creators of Recoil what we want them to cover.
All of that said, I probably won't buy another issue unless I see a drastic improvement in attitude and content.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-10-12, 19:49
Im supporting the companies who dropped their ads from Recoil with my money. Maybe we should all do the same.
I think the editor just keeps stepping on his dick, and worse and worse each time.
I don't know if he believes what he first said and is now trying to back away from it, or if he just spoke without thinking
Now he is saying: "In the article, I stated some information that was passed on to me about why the gun is not available for civilian purchase."
No he did not 'state some information that was passed on to him.' He was clearly speaking for himself and NOT quoting HK when he first wrote wrote:
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it.
If he did mistate it to this extent, he is a really bad writer.
I think someone here mentioned that the writers and editor probably glean a lot of their info of this forum. I can definitely see how that would be the case.
I picked up my issue from the book store back on Friday, before any of this happened. I read, and cringed, at the article in question. I scratched my head at the bullshit "response" to the comments they were getting. This is clearly a magazine (and editor, specifically) who doesn't understand their audience.
To me, that's what all of this amounts to. It's a severe miscalculation of the audience by a writer/editor (since the editor was the writer of the article, who likely didn't run it by anyone else who could pointed out that he should say the things he said) who just didn't know any better. And, given that he grew up in CA, I can see how he didn't realize that this response would come.
That said, I still have hope for the magazine. When it started, the biggest complaint was that it wasn't staffed by "gun guys." Well, that's true. It was staffed by a bunch of geardos who had a what they thought was a good idea to try and make firearms look mainstream and capture a younger market, something that I perceived as a good thing. The lack of "gun guys," I figured, would work itself out.
For example, since I'm sure most of you haven't actually read it, this issue has a great article by Stickman about Noveske's 300 BLK SBR. There are articles about pieces of gear that many people on here would like to know more about, or at least have an interest in, that isn't typically covered by any other print publication. These are good things, they create an audience. As basic as some of the articles are, it gets our hobby out there and gets people talking.
Whether or not they survive this incident remains to be seen. Gun people, almost more so than any other group I've seen, would rather hold severe grudges until the end of time rather than offer a hand to help re-educate someone who just didn't know any better. The fact that Jim Zumbo's name is now forever written into black rifle lore is an example of this.
The magazine wants to make money. The writers want to keep their jobs. Gun people want pretty pictures and articles they can show their friends. It would be great to have another magazine that did these things all the while being written by real "gun people." But that magazine doesn't exist, so the best we have is trying to teach the creators of Recoil what we want them to cover.
All of that said, I probably won't buy another issue unless I see a drastic improvement in attitude and content.
Sort of with you on your reply. Am I upset at the response from Tsai? Yeh I am. Man what I wouldn't give to have this guys access to handing out positive info on what we do and how we live. Freaking shame that opportunity has been missed.
Is it ignorance or straight up understanding of rights yet still stating he doesn't want civvies to obtain such 'WMD' as the Fetus killing MP7? Only time will tell. My biggest question is how will RECOIL as a magazine respond to this.
Haley Strategic, SilencerCo, and I.T.S. have pulled their support from them and rightfully so with more to follow suit.
RECOIL no matter your view did have the ability and possibility to lure shooters and non-shooters alike to our side of the shooting community. That cannot be said by alot of media outlets. Our side of the firearms community isn't very large (as compared to others such as clay shooting and hunting) and anything that can change and increase that acceptance is MOST welcome. The more mainstream something is the more difficult it is to remove from said mainstream.
Let's hope the right thing is done in the end so that opportunity is not wasted. That'll be one of the worst things that will come of all this.
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. "
Basically he is saying that the government cannot trust the citizenry, but the citizenry must trust the govt.
He is also using his own filter to decide what weapons citizens should be "allowed" to have.
I think he should go live in a country where the government's actions are more suited to his views, like communist China.
Let's hope the right thing is done in the end so that opportunity is not wasted.
The magazine is likely to go under due to this which is fine with me.
BrigandTwoFour
09-10-12, 20:32
I think the editor just keeps stepping on his dick, and worse and worse each time.
I don't know if he believes what he first said and is now trying to back away from it, or if he just spoke without thinking
Now he is saying: "In the article, I stated some information that was passed on to me about why the gun is not available for civilian purchase."
No he did not 'state some information that was passed on to him.' He was clearly speaking for himself and NOT quoting HK when he first wrote wrote:
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it.
Just to be clear, I'm going to bring in more of the original quote from the issue.
“Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."
If you read some of the things that others have written on this incident, particularly what the guys at Rifle Dynamics had to say (since they've actually met him and took him shooting), you get the impression that the editor who wrote the article frankly doesn't know jack about "tactical" firearms when compared to the average user of a web site like this. It is reasonable to assume that he took the information given to him by HK and assumed it was readily accepted across the gamut of firearms culture. Proper research into the disgust we generally have with HK's attitude might have avoided such reliance. He is, first and foremost, a magazine producer. He makes slick magazines and happens to enjoy firearms. That's how he got the job.
I still say that's no excuse for making such an egregious error in a print publication that can (and probably will) be used against us by the anti-side. Proper research and time in the community would have provided that kind of insight. Sadly, he didn't have it and now the magazine is paying for it.
polymorpheous
09-10-12, 20:49
Bravo Company just announced that they are dropping their ads from RECOIL.
Just to be clear, I'm going to bring in more of the original quote from the issue.
“Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."
Saying a gun is something that you don't want in the wrong and slimey hands could apply to a number of things and doesn't in itself mean that law abiding civilians shouldn't own the gun.
What do you expect the HK rep to say--'yes, we'd love to sell this gun to lots of gangbangers'?
The HK MP7 is not available for civilian sales because it is a post-86 select fire weapon and cannot be sold to civilians unless they happen to be NFA dealers with a sample gun letter.
If HK watned to make a civi weapon it would have to be a semiauto with a 16" barrel and fixed stock, would have a lot of RD, machine setup and production line expenses, and then not likely sell welll enough to justify the company's expenses.
What the editor is trying to do on his third (or is it forth) attempt at an explanation is to redirect the blame for what he said. He only manages to step on his dick worse and worse every time.
sinlessorrow
09-10-12, 21:08
Just to be clear, I'm going to bring in more of the original quote from the issue.
“Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."
If you read some of the things that others have written on this incident, particularly what the guys at Rifle Dynamics had to say (since they've actually met him and took him shooting), you get the impression that the editor who wrote the article frankly doesn't know jack about "tactical" firearms when compared to the average user of a web site like this. It is reasonable to assume that he took the information given to him by HK and assumed it was readily accepted across the gamut of firearms culture. Proper research into the disgust we generally have with HK's attitude might have avoided such reliance. He is, first and foremost, a magazine producer. He makes slick magazines and happens to enjoy firearms. That's how he got the job.
I still say that's no excuse for making such an egregious error in a print publication that can (and probably will) be used against us by the anti-side. Proper research and time in the community would have provided that kind of insight. Sadly, he didn't have it and now the magazine is paying for it.
where did you get that quote? That is an edited quote and not the original.
I will say I would be more afraid of someone with a MK18 than a MP7, it's not the most fearful gun and the round is pretty pathetic.
BrigandTwoFour
09-10-12, 21:15
Saying a gun is something that you don't want in the wrong and slimey hands could apply to a number of things and doesn't in itself mean that law abiding civilians shouldn't own the gun.
What do you expect the HK rep to say--'yes, we'd love to sell this gun to lots of gangbangers'?
The HK MP7 is not available for civilian sales because it is a post-86 select fire weapon and cannot be sold to civilians unless they happen to be NFA dealers with a sample gun letter.
If HK watned to make a civi weapon it would have to be a semiauto with a 16" barrel and fixed stock, would have a lot of RD, machine setup and production line expenses, and then not likely sell welll enough to justify the company's expenses.
What the editor is trying to do on his third (or is it forth) attempt at an explanation is to redirect the blame for what he said. He only manages to step on his dick worse and worse every time.
My point is that if the HK rep said that, you can bet that he pretty laid out the HK philosophy on making weapons for civilians. Of course he's not going to say they want their weapons in the hands of gangbangers; that would be asinine. But you can bet that if the writer doesn't have enough experience in our kind of guns to know that this is standard fare for HK, they will probably print HK's philosophy adopted as their own because, HK is a leaders in the industry, right? Whatever they say must be the pulse of the industry, right?
They didn't know any better. It could have been solved by simply stating the weapon doesn't fall within the legal bounds of current US firearms law. But the way they said it sounded more "dramatic" with more "impact."
The subsequent attempts at correction were full of failed attempts to restate what they thought was common understanding (again, they didn't know any better).
In the end, I just come back to the old standby of Hanlon's Razor..."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
These things can, and should, be corrected with education. Otherwise we are no better than those on the opposite spectrum who crucify anyone who disagrees without discussion. If attempts to re-educate fail, then a response this extreme is just fine. But that's me, I guess I'm just too soft on people.
BrigandTwoFour
09-10-12, 21:20
where did you get that quote? That is an edited quote and not the original.
I will say I would be more afraid of someone with a MK18 than a MP7, it's not the most fearful gun and the round is pretty pathetic.
That quote came from Recoil, issue #4, page 35. It is word for word, as it's sitting right in front of me. If you would like to post what you think is the correct quote, then please enlighten me.
And yes, I would be more afraid of a MK18 than a MP7.
Again, I'm NOT defending what was said. But I'm not going to be so quick to condemn someone's beliefs that I believe to be out of ignorance and can be corrected with education.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-10-12, 21:33
I dont think any of this negativity should be aimed at HK. They are a German company who makes military weapons and occasionally supports the US civilian market. The real travesty here is the American with a bully pulpit saying that we shouldn't be trusted with certain "deadly firearms".
Kinda reminds me about how Obama said we could all agree that AK47s don't belong in American hands...
QuietShootr
09-10-12, 21:46
as an aside. Its best load, the DM11, fires a 31gr bullet at 2300 fps with an ME of 373 ft/lb.
That's a .22 Magnum, fellas. Yes, the bullet construction is different, but a hot .22 Magnum FMJ is known for penetrating soft armor.
In other words, this: http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/
whoop-de-f<censored>-do.
sinlessorrow
09-10-12, 21:51
as an aside. Its best load, the DM11, fires a 31gr bullet at 2300 fps with an ME of 373 ft/lb.
That's a .22 Magnum, fellas. Yes, the bullet construction is different, but a hot .22 Magnum FMJ is known for penetrating soft armor.
In other words, this: http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/
whoop-de-f<censored>-do.
Yep, and M193 will penetrate though soft armor.
I have the magazine here on my couch. Other than the stupid Hk quote - which frankly is straight from the Hk rep - I don't see the controversy?
Okay so it was poorly worded, however the internet hyperbole here is mindboggling.
Divide and conquer is the tactic of the anti's. It is unfortunate that it is being adopted here by people who so feverishly purport to support the 2A. Which is of course what the Anti-2A folks love, rather than attempt to tar and feather Jerry and Recoil, perhaps a more practical approach would be education and make an actual effort to go out and try to explain why you took offence.
If someone tells me they don't like 'evil black guns' I generally try to get them to shoot one of the guns, take them for some longer range accuracy work, or just plink something at the range, to show them that the gun is not evil nor scary. This way rather than dropping an F bomb like some here apparently want to do, and further divide our community, you make an effort and perhaps just perhaps take an anti over into the pro, or at least a neutral observer who will remember the time that someone at least tried to make an effort to explain their sport/passion.
At the end of the day, it was an article in print. It was not digging in an IED, or someone taking aim and trying to kill you. Sit down take a deep breath, and think.
Was I disappointed with the article - yes. I think it was poorly researched and horribly written. But I've seen many many folks in the industry and even more in the rest of my life, make bad decisions. If we simply marched off everyone and 'executed' them, then honestly there would probably be one gun owning American around, and a slew of folks who despised the gun culture. Frankly there are a ton of people commenting here that have done equally or stupider stuff, and no one has run them off, or started a crusade to end their livelihood.
The onus is on US the gun owners to educate people, and to do it compassionately and with forethought.
This is just me individually writing on my sofa, not as an industry person, but as a civilian gun enthusiast. One who looks to the future with care and concern, and wants to preserve what little rights we have left for my children. I encourage all reading this, to sit back, and think what is best for the future of gun owners, and the freedoms and rights of all of us.
I have the magazine here on my couch. Other than the stupid Hk quote - which frankly is straight from the Hk rep - I don't see the controversy?
Okay so it was poorly worded, however the internet hyperbole here is mindboggling.
Divide and conquer is the tactic of the anti's. It is unfortunate that it is being adopted here by people who so feverishly purport to support the 2A. Which is of course what the Anti-2A folks love, rather than attempt to tar and feather Jerry and Recoil, perhaps a more practical approach would be education and make an actual effort to go out and try to explain why you took offence.
If someone tells me they don't like 'evil black guns' I generally try to get them to shoot one of the guns, take them for some longer range accuracy work, or just plink something at the range, to show them that the gun is not evil nor scary. This way rather than dropping an F bomb like some here apparently want to do, and further divide our community, you make an effort and perhaps just perhaps take an anti over into the pro, or at least a neutral observer who will remember the time that someone at least tried to make an effort to explain their sport/passion.
At the end of the day, it was an article in print. It was not digging in an IED, or someone taking aim and trying to kill you. Sit down take a deep breath, and think.
Was I disappointed with the article - yes. I think it was poorly researched and horribly written. But I've seen many many folks in the industry and even more in the rest of my life, make bad decisions. If we simply marched off everyone and 'executed' them, then honestly there would probably be one gun owning American around, and a slew of folks who despised the gun culture. Frankly there are a ton of people commenting here that have done equally or stupider stuff, and no one has run them off, or started a crusade to end their livelihood.
The onus is on US the gun owners to educate people, and to do it compassionately and with forethought.
This is just me individually writing on my sofa, not as an industry person, but as a civilian gun enthusiast. One who looks to the future with care and concern, and wants to preserve what little rights we have left for my children. I encourage all reading this, to sit back, and think what is best for the future of gun owners, and the freedoms and rights of all of us.
And had one of my friends said this, and I knew it was out of ignorance and media programming, I would have reacted in that manner (and have on numerous occasions, converting several to the point that they are now buying and/or building their own ARs/AKs). That's all well and good, and part of the 'grass roots' marketing campaign we as gun owners must engage in if we want to keep our rights.
This is different. This is an industry representative (he may know squat about that industry, but by taking on the position of editor of a firearms 'lifestyle' magazine, he's making himself a representative nonetheless), and his uneducated opinion can do a lot of damage to our cause once the Brady Bunch gets a hold of his article. He's taken on a responsibility to not shoot our 'lifestyle' in the foot, and yet he did just that. Then, when confronted on it, he doubled down and tried to blame it on HK at the same time. He still hasn't taken responsibility for his actions, and at this point he's just trying to save his own skin. That's why I, personally, am so irate with him.
The onus is on US the gun owners to educate people, and to do it compassionately and with forethought.
If there is one person we SHOULDN'T have to educate, it is the EDITOR of a firearms magazine.
And it isn't the HK quote that is at issue. It is the Editors quote which he is now trying to "attribute" to HK.
Saying you want to keep these weapons out of the wrong hands is FINE. Most of us agree.
Saying this is the Uber Law Enforcement weapon like no other is just exaggeration and bragging. FINE. Most of us see right through it.
Parroting the HK line of "Restricted - No Civie Sales" is FINE. We know when somebody it just telling us a company policy which is based upon OUR LAWS.
What is NOT FINE is when everyone called him on the following quote:
”…the MP71A is unavailable to civilians and for good measure. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of.”
...he DID NOT say "I and the staff at Recoil" completely disagree with the HK position regarding firearms for civilian use.
INSTEAD he came back with some "I believe that in a perfect world..." crap which is ESSENTIALLY saying that because it is NOT a perfect world he AGREES with the stated position.
In a perfect world we'd simply explain to the editor why he is wrong and why we are upset and would trust that he would make the necessary corrections for us to continue to support his publication.
But alas, it is not a perfect world.
And you talk of "divide and conquer"? Who is it that just threw us under the bus?
Divide and conquer is the tactic of the anti's. It is unfortunate that it is being adopted here by people who so feverishly purport to support the 2A. Which is of course what the Anti-2A folks love, rather than attempt to tar and feather Jerry and Recoil, perhaps a more practical approach would be education and make an actual effort to go out and try to explain why you took offence.
The divide and conquer mentality is not limited to issues of the 2A as it has been part of the political culture around here for a while. Honestly, I don't know how you could have missed it, but sift through a few pages of the "2012 Presidental Election" thread if you doubt me. Republicans and Libertarians have perfected the art of the circular firing squad, and they are all bringing Dillion M134's to this year's election. Jerry is just the latest casualty of the all or none thinking that is today's order of battle.
Having said that, I think that Jerry actually managed to piss off more people than Alex Robinson did 4 years ago when he endorsed Romney. Now that takes some effort...
I am not going to jump on the "damn recoil magazine bandwagon", that's just too easy to do. The Recoil offices are about two blocks away from mine. They are staffed by a bunch of young, enthusiastic "kids", hoping to do something new for the gun community, not an easy row to hoe in California. In my office we also have a bunch of new, fresh out of college kids who more than occasionally mess-up, not too unlike Jerry Tsai's recent faux pas. Like the kids in my office, I was young and new once, and I made mistakes too, and I learned, I got past them, and I improved. Recoil, with Jerry Tsai will do the same because regardless of this error, Recoil is good for the industry, good for the firearms community, and when you go back and look at what they have done, and what they aim to do, and who they are marketing to and where, we are much better off with them than without them. Actually, I think we need more of them, even if they trip up once in a while. I think Recoil is a welcome addition to a tired bunch of magazines, in a medium and an industry that isn't getting any bigger, or better. Recoil has the potential to add AR buyers to the fold and to educate readers and buyers on products, etc., like they have done with the three issues that I have had the opportunity to read. Recoil was never intended to be more than a single issue "special" but industry and firearms community response to the first issue was so positive we got a second, third, then a fourth issue. I'd like to see more in the future. Contrary to what everyone else is doing, I am going to accept Jerry Tsai's apology, and buy issue four when I see it on the stands in the hopes that both grow and contribute more to what we are all about here.
This is different. This is an industry representative (he may know squat about that industry, but by taking on the position of editor of a firearms 'lifestyle' magazine, he's making himself a representative nonetheless), and his uneducated opinion can do a lot of damage to our cause once the Brady Bunch gets a hold of his article.
This is the BIG reason there is so much stink attached to this media slip up. Its one thing to personally run into an uneducated gun enthusiast. It is completely another to be a "Subject Matter Expert" and lay this kind of thought out there for the whole wide world to see.
Its an outrage because he is going to be followed in that mindset by other uneducated enthusiasts.
Also please do not back pedal and try to shift blame and focus from yourself to someone else, IE HK. It's cowardly and weak. Admit when you have made a mistake. Man up to your shortfalls.
CarlosDJackal
09-11-12, 00:41
The problem isn't what HK stated. We all know they were always anti-2A as a matter of policy.
The problem here is that RECOIL published the quote as if they were in full agreement with this policy. And by doing so, they have placed themself in the anti-2A side of the fence.
Had they stated in their "article" that "HK's policy concerning the MP7 is..." or something like "Unfortunately, the MP7 will not be available to..."; it would have been a different story.
Heck, they would have been better off leaving that little tidbit out of the article. I mean really? What did that it contribute to the article in the first place?
Like it or not RECOIL screwed the pooch in this. I was on the fence about subscribing. But not anymore!!
I am not going to jump on the "damn recoil magazine bandwagon", that's just too easy to do. The Recoil offices are about two blocks away from mine. They are staffed by a bunch of young, enthusiastic "kids", hoping to do something new for the gun community, not an easy row to hoe in California. In my office we also have a bunch of new, fresh out of college kids who more than occasionally mess-up, not too unlike Jerry Tsai's recent faux pas. Like the kids in my office, I was young and new once, and I made mistakes too, and I learned, I got past them, and I improved. Recoil, with Jerry Tsai will do the same because regardless of this error, Recoil is good for the industry, good for the firearms community, and when you go back and look at what they have done, and what they aim to do, and who they are marketing to and where, we are much better off with them than without them. Actually, I think we need more of them, even if they trip up once in a while. I think Recoil is a welcome addition to a tired bunch of magazines, in a medium and an industry that isn't getting any bigger, or better. Recoil has the potential to add AR buyers to the fold and to educate readers and buyers on products, etc., like they have done with the three issues that I have had the opportunity to read. Recoil was never intended to be more than a single issue "special" but industry and firearms community response to the first issue was so positive we got a second, third, then a fourth issue. I'd like to see more in the future. Contrary to what everyone else is doing, I am going to accept Jerry Tsai's apology, and buy issue four when I see it on the stands in the hopes that both grow and contribute more to what we are all about here.
Your decision.
Unfortunately Jerry has also made his. He had the opportunity to simply say "You know what guys, I thought about it and I don't agree with the HK position, I think any law abiding citizen should be able to own any small arm and it's unfortunate US laws prevent the MP7 from being imported for civilian sales."
But sadly for him, he went on his "In a perfect world I'd agree BUT..." defense of the original position that joe civilian simply should not be allowed to own anything like a MP7.
Maybe they will figure it out, maybe they won't, but their handling of the situation means they will do "whatever" without a lot of the readers, subscribers and advertisers they once had. A very costly (and sadly one that could have been easily corrected) mistake.
If politicians were not constantly trying to undermine, corrupt, overstep and weaken the 2A then those of us in the gun community just might not be do hair trigger sensitive.
I wear my thin skin proudly having seen rhe erosion in 1968, 1986, 1994, today's F&F and all fascist points in between.
Anyone that ignores the open wound of the 2A with gun owners is either too naive, ignorant or statist to be writing about guns.
BTW I really do mot like the title inflation in the magazine world. Newspapers would call an author a reporter or columnist. Mags make everyone that breathes an editor, sort like everyone on salary at a bank is a VP it seems. I very much doubt Jerry Tsai is an editor that reviews and corrects other writers' copy or sets policy etc. he us a young hack writer that knows little about his audience or subject matter.
It will be interesting to see if Recoil reprimands him or removes him as incompetent, or if they double down with him.
The problem isn't what HK stated. We all know they were always anti-2A as a matter of policy.
Little look from the outside.
HK is not anti-2A. If they were, why would they go trough all hoops and loops to provide their products for civilian market in US and worldwide?
HK, per German law and constitution (that was forced upon Federal Republic of West Germany by .... US) is "weapons of war manufacturer". Such manufacturer can not allow their products do go in civilian hands in Germany or anywhere else (to avoid loophole used by post-WW1 Germany to go around Wersal Pact and train "civiliand defense" that later become Wehrmacht). That is why they make special version of their select fire products, that differ more than trigger system alone and make them in separate companies (HK Jagd und Sportwaffen Gmbh before, HK Sidearms Gmbh and HK USA today). It is every company free market right not to sell their products to somebody.
But HK tries to sell to sell their products to civilians everywhere it is economically viable. Making civi legal (an US legal) version of MP7A1 is not (it would be more like novelty item or conversation piece, not big seller). Even worse - actual MP7A1 in hands of law abiding civilians, for HK is even bigger legal nightmare than in hands of some criminals (as it is a case with HK416 uppers thaw went to US civilians). And there is lot of people in EU under "shut down HK" banner. HK employee must say that company will do everything to prevent those kind of weapons from ending in "wrong hands" not because of attitude toward civilian customers, but because of legal environment in which HK operates.
Your decision.
Unfortunately Jerry has also made his. He had the opportunity to simply say "You know what guys, I thought about it and I don't agree with the HK position, I think any law abiding citizen should be able to own any small arm and it's unfortunate US laws prevent the MP7 from being imported for civilian sales."
But sadly for him, he went on his "In a perfect world I'd agree BUT..." defense of the original position that joe civilian simply should not be allowed to own anything like a MP7.
Maybe they will figure it out, maybe they won't, but their handling of the situation means they will do "whatever" without a lot of the readers, subscribers and advertisers they once had. A very costly (and sadly one that could have been easily corrected) mistake.
I'll quote someone else, who I think really summed up the situation concisely,
"Tsai made a mistake. The magazine is done. We have won a victory. This adds a new dimension to "don't **** up". I hope we can all live up to our new standards."
QuietShootr
09-11-12, 07:52
And had one of my friends said this, and I knew it was out of ignorance and media programming, I would have reacted in that manner (and have on numerous occasions, converting several to the point that they are now buying and/or building their own ARs/AKs). That's all well and good, and part of the 'grass roots' marketing campaign we as gun owners must engage in if we want to keep our rights.
This is different. This is an industry representative (he may know squat about that industry, but by taking on the position of editor of a firearms 'lifestyle' magazine, he's making himself a representative nonetheless), and his uneducated opinion can do a lot of damage to our cause once the Brady Bunch gets a hold of his article. He's taken on a responsibility to not shoot our 'lifestyle' in the foot, and yet he did just that. Then, when confronted on it, he doubled down and tried to blame it on HK at the same time. He still hasn't taken responsibility for his actions, and at this point he's just trying to save his own skin. That's why I, personally, am so irate with him.
THIS, absolutely.
crowkiller
09-11-12, 08:21
Little look from the outside.
HK is not anti-2A. If they were, why would they go trough all hoops and loops to provide their products for civilian market in US and worldwide?
HK, per German law and constitution (that was forced upon Federal Republic of West Germany by .... US) is "weapons of war manufacturer". Such manufacturer can not allow their products do go in civilian hands in Germany or anywhere else (to avoid loophole used by post-WW1 Germany to go around Wersal Pact and train "civiliand defense" that later become Wehrmacht). That is why they make special version of their select fire products, that differ more than trigger system alone and make them in separate companies (HK Jagd und Sportwaffen Gmbh before, HK Sidearms Gmbh and HK USA today). It is every company free market right not to sell their products to somebody.
But HK tries to sell to sell their products to civilians everywhere it is economically viable. Making civi legal (an US legal) version of MP7A1 is not (it would be more like novelty item or conversation piece, not big seller). Even worse - actual MP7A1 in hands of law abiding civilians, for HK is even bigger legal nightmare than in hands of some criminals (as it is a case with HK416 uppers thaw went to US civilians). And there is lot of people in EU under "shut down HK" banner. HK employee must say that company will do everything to prevent those kind of weapons from ending in "wrong hands" not because of attitude toward civilian customers, but because of legal environment in which HK operates.
Thanks for the insight it helps to understand HK's predicament.
ForTehNguyen
09-11-12, 17:12
I am not going to jump on the "damn recoil magazine bandwagon", that's just too easy to do. The Recoil offices are about two blocks away from mine. They are staffed by a bunch of young, enthusiastic "kids", hoping to do something new for the gun community, not an easy row to hoe in California. In my office we also have a bunch of new, fresh out of college kids who more than occasionally mess-up, not too unlike Jerry Tsai's recent faux pas. Like the kids in my office, I was young and new once, and I made mistakes too, and I learned, I got past them, and I improved. Recoil, with Jerry Tsai will do the same because regardless of this error, Recoil is good for the industry, good for the firearms community, and when you go back and look at what they have done, and what they aim to do, and who they are marketing to and where, we are much better off with them than without them. Actually, I think we need more of them, even if they trip up once in a while. I think Recoil is a welcome addition to a tired bunch of magazines, in a medium and an industry that isn't getting any bigger, or better. Recoil has the potential to add AR buyers to the fold and to educate readers and buyers on products, etc., like they have done with the three issues that I have had the opportunity to read. Recoil was never intended to be more than a single issue "special" but industry and firearms community response to the first issue was so positive we got a second, third, then a fourth issue. I'd like to see more in the future. Contrary to what everyone else is doing, I am going to accept Jerry Tsai's apology, and buy issue four when I see it on the stands in the hopes that both grow and contribute more to what we are all about here.
same here accepted his apology. I just got back from Barnes and Nobles with the 4th issue. I guess I'm an anti
Moose-Knuckle
09-11-12, 18:31
The gun community has to "police" their own. The consumers speak with their hard earned money. We have lost too much ground that we will never regain. It really is as simple as you are either with us or against us. The line was drawn in the sand long ago.
If anything, when guys like Zumbo and Tsai experience diarrhea of the mouth it shows how our community can organize and circle the wagons.
H&K USP .40 a non-sporting gun
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7978037826_ca42b1bedb_b.jpg
Scattergun
09-11-12, 19:58
never heard of it until the other day
ForTehNguyen
09-11-12, 20:42
The gun community has to "police" their own. The consumers speak with their hard earned money. We have lost too much ground that we will never regain. It really is as simple as you are either with us or against us. The line was drawn in the sand long ago.
If anything, when guys like Zumbo and Tsai experience diarrhea of the mouth it shows how our community can organize and circle the wagons.
so the only possible positions that can exist are civilians can have all weapons or no weapons? There is no such thing as in between? What this is preaching is intolerance. This all or nothing perspective is a bit silly if you ask me. IMO the 2A needs everything they can get to defend it, even those that slightly differ with your position. For the record, I think we should have all weapons. Fine, some dude doesn't think we should have shitty obscure gun, so what? May not be a perfect ally but they would still be a strong ally. But its as simple as either having perfect ally or no ally right? There is no history of this guy being anti gun, yet at the slightest hint of a differing position, hang him!
It would be sporting if loaded correctly.
H&K USP .40 a non-sporting gun
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7978037826_ca42b1bedb_b.jpg
This was not a faux pas. Jerry Tsai does not believe in the 2nd Amendment or he would not have made his moronic statement. Let him begin collecting his 99 weeks of unemployment starting today.
The Recoil offices are about two blocks away from mine. They are staffed by a bunch of young, enthusiastic "kids", hoping to do something new for the gun community, not an easy row to hoe in California. In my office we also have a bunch of new, fresh out of college kids who more than occasionally mess-up, not too unlike Jerry Tsai's recent faux pas.
Moose-Knuckle
09-11-12, 22:43
so the only possible positions that can exist are civilians can have all weapons or no weapons? There is no such thing as in between? What this is preaching is intolerance. This all or nothing perspective is a bit silly if you ask me. IMO the 2A needs everything they can get to defend it, even those that slightly differ with your position. For the record, I think we should have all weapons. Fine, some dude doesn't think we should have shitty obscure gun, so what? May not be a perfect ally but they would still be a strong ally. But its as simple as either having perfect ally or no ally right?
In case you didn't see this on the first blog linked. They tell it like it is.
Penn & Teller on the 2nd Amendment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GNu7ldL1LM)
There is no history of this guy being anti gun, yet at the slightest hint of a differing position, hang him!
Nice, in 13 pages I haven't seen anyone calling for him to be lynched. As an editor of a firearm periodical you commit professional suicide when you make statements like the one he made in his initial article and then again on a social media site in response to said article.
QuietShootr
09-11-12, 22:51
so the only possible positions that can exist are civilians can have all weapons or no weapons? There is no such thing as in between? What this is preaching is intolerance. This all or nothing perspective is a bit silly if you ask me. IMO the 2A needs everything they can get to defend it, even those that slightly differ with your position. For the record, I think we should have all weapons. Fine, some dude doesn't think we should have shitty obscure gun, so what? May not be a perfect ally but they would still be a strong ally. But its as simple as either having perfect ally or no ally right? There is no history of this guy being anti gun, yet at the slightest hint of a differing position, hang him!
http://nextlol.com/images/4877-done.gif
LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-11-12, 23:00
As reported and verified by Military Arms Channel:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/392090_492124264132711_1934355026_n.jpg
The editor of this gun rag is simply a "Californian Conservative", he is a liberal that finds it exciting to pretend to be a something he isn't.
His initial statement in the gun rag was idiotic and certainly in keeping with the "we're HK and we hate you" mentality of the company he was promoting. His subsequent clarification actually show us he is a fair weather firearms enthusiast, and completely undeserving of my financial support.
Jim Zumbo can still piss off too.
Cameron
so the only possible positions that can exist are civilians can have all weapons or no weapons? There is no such thing as in between? What this is preaching is intolerance. This all or nothing perspective is a bit silly if you ask me. IMO the 2A needs everything they can get to defend it, even those that slightly differ with your position. For the record, I think we should have all weapons. Fine, some dude doesn't think we should have shitty obscure gun, so what? May not be a perfect ally but they would still be a strong ally. But its as simple as either having perfect ally or no ally right? There is no history of this guy being anti gun, yet at the slightest hint of a differing position, hang him!
Again, that's HARDLY what this is about.
He didn't say that nobody should have a shitty Hi Point.
The problem ONCE AGAIN, is he advocated and then defended the position that there are some small arms which are suitable for the defensive needs of law enforcement and the military that should NOT be made available to law abiding citizens.
We aren't talking about nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers or fighter jets. We are talking about small arms that are no more lethal than a transferable M-16 and no more concealable than a transferable M-11.
But honestly lethality and concealability are irrelevant. The entire purpose of the second amendment is to have "arms" comparable to military, law enforcement or other government agencies. It is about the ability of the private citizen to defend himself against all threats. And unlike the military and law enforcement he can't depend upon a squad or call for back up.
If a person doesn't agree with that view, they DO NOT agree with the second amendment.
The second amendment is NOT about duck hunting, target competitions or cowboy action shooting.
There are plenty of gun owners who are ACTUALLY anti second amendment, some of them don't even realize it. It would seem Jerry Tsai just found out.
As reported and verified by Military Arms Channel:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/392090_492124264132711_1934355026_n.jpg
I should be stunned, but I'm not. Somebody still just doesn't get it.
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