View Full Version : purchase AR/Legion Firearms
I was looking to purchase a 'high end' AR. I was interested in some of the technology offered by Legion Firearms. I got as far as reading their terms...and boy was I in for a surprise. I'll list some of the gems these guys put in there below. Frankly, I will never agree to the terms below--this is UNACCEPTABLE to me. They have lost a sale. But I am curious if other manufacturers have the arrogance to bully their customers like this or if it is "just" Legion Firearms. Is this common? I suppose this is also a warning to those who were considering them but don't bother to read the terms... If I am mis-reading the lawyer legal mumbo-jumbo--pleas correct me too.
When you look at a product, below they say all sales are subject to their "shipping and deliveries" terms. Clicking that takes you to their "online firearms purchase agreement", which is here: http://store.legionfirearms.com/articles.asp?ID=57
I'll point readers to the parts that shocked me:
25 "non-disparagement". If they don't like ANYTHING you ever say about their product in any way...they can command you to retract it. I like reading reviews of products--but with this--I can't trust anything because it can't be anything they don't like! Wow. Unbelievable. What kind of company does this?
8 fail background=lose all money. Generally not an issue--but as I read this if the government simply makes a mistake--I'm out thousands. No credit, no do over later--I lose all money. Nice.
24 Any sale=their sale. For 2 years, they get to buy the gun for your price first. Want to sell it to your brother for a nominal fee--they can steal it from you at that price. Want to gift it to your son...guess again. Double wow.
21c You are required to take a training class. I've taken one, and obviously aside form the hassle and cost it is a good idea, but I think it takes some balls to require customers to do so contractually.
4 payment default=steal your money/the goods. If your credit card company/bank declines the purchase--even by mistake--they can take any money you've given them and keep the goods. Oh, and the rest of the contract is still enforceable. I'd say something other than wow again--but I'm too dumbfounded.
In summary, they sure put a lot of "gotchas" in there that if there is any problem--the buyer is screwed. The killer for me is the 'you are our puppet' one. I can't trust anything I read about them now, and I have to wonder why--if you are so great--you would need that. I woudl have asked owners of their product what they thought, but...
I am not a lawyer and only play one on TV. I don't think they could contractually enforce any of what you posted.
I think as long as you agree and it doesn't violate any other laws--it is binding. I'm not a lawyer, but obviously one wrote this up and I have to believe it is enforceable.
Further, perhaps that is why they have point 32--that says this contract is considered made in Colorado for legal purposes even though they seem to be based in Texas. Obviously the laws in CO are somehow favorable to them.
NoveskeFan
07-11-12, 20:47
They don't really list any specs, I'd stay away and order a Noveske.
Man if it were my cash I'd not come close to this. Go with a proven quantity like the Noveske or a KAC. Hell I'd buy two Colts instead..........
Man if it were my cash I'd not come close to this. Go with a proven quantity like the Noveske or a KAC. Hell I'd buy two Colts instead..........
Yup.... Lol. What a bunch of retards. I wonder if they have a "contact us" feature on their website.... ;)
Looks like they use Mega Arms Billet upper and lower receivers.
Except they NiB coat them, and charge a crap ton more.
I wouldn't touch any of those with a 10 foot pole. If you're going to spend that much money, I'd get a KAC SR15.
I'd imagine if you had any issues and contacted them regarding it, then they'd say things like "Oh well you haven't ran it through any training classes yet", etc, etc. Sounds to me like they are just setting you up.
snakedoctor
07-12-12, 08:59
If you want an AR that was built in Texas, just go with LaRue Tactical. If you dont want to wait for it the just get a BCM.
Laws and contracts are only as strong as the ability to enforce them. The alleged power that people think this kind of crap holds over anyone is simply silly.
That said, putting out terms like that is past silly and well on its way to outright stupid.
I'm pretty sure Ferrari has stipulations on cars like the Enzo that read almost exactly like what you've listed. I'm guessing this company literally thinks they're the Ferrari of AR's, and took these rules from Ferrari or a company like them to get that elite status. Now they can sell ARs to people that have too much money, and have them feel special.
B.C.M.
25 "non-disparagement". If they don't like ANYTHING you ever say about their product in any way...they can command you to retract it. I like reading reviews of products--but with this--I can't trust anything because it can't be anything they don't like! Wow. Unbelievable. What kind of company does this?
I several years reviewed license agreement of one gig ERP software system (big systems to manage big companies) for my customer. To be able to use software customer must give it favorable review, sign out success story and sent each year employee to SAP conference, that will tell how happy they are. If client report problems with software implementation or usage publicly, they loose license. Plus 100% upfront payment, even if software will never work.
Maybe this Legion company have some IT industry lawyers? :secret:
I'm sure they'll be out of bitness soon. Too much competition to have a startup pulling jack-assery like that.
Much better, cheaper options out there.
F those guys. They're not offering anything special. Take your business elsewhere with a company that flies straight and easy.
adameverywhere
07-12-12, 12:54
Hi all,
I'm Adam Morehead, one of the co-founders of Legion Firearms. First of all, I agree with pretty much everything posted thus far. When we formed the company we wanted to be as rock solid as we could in our terms and conditions, and in reading this feed back I know we went WAY TOO FAR. (BTW Montrala, you're right: our attorney represents several software companies). The legal mumbo jumbo generally makes my eyes glaze over, so I deeply apologize for conveying a douchebag like image. That's certainly not our intent.
We in no way want to keep anyone's money if they "default". Considering this pertains a web purchase, the credit card is either good or it isn't. If it doesn't work out we'll put the order aside for you, see if there is another payment method available, or whatever it takes to get you Legion gear.
We love it if you take courses and train with firearms, but if you don't want to, then you don't have to. This clause is really dumb.
Also, once you buy Legion kit, do what you want with it (except straw purchasing of course). We don't have any rights to it, or you, or anything in your gun safe after purchase. Again, this clause is ridiculous.
Finally, go ahead and talk about your Legion products. Whether it's good or bad we at Legion (and everyone on the internet) should know. We want to make everyone happy and really appreciate the feed back we get from our customers. This post is in fact good feedback. We f'ed up and we'll fix it. That's what we do.
Sorry again folks. Thanks for letting me know what we need to change.
Adam
Hi all,
I'm Adam Morehead, one of the co-founders of Legion Firearms. First of all, I agree with pretty much everything posted thus far. When we formed the company we wanted to be as rock solid as we could in our terms and conditions, and in reading this feed back I know we went WAY TOO FAR. (BTW Montrala, you're right: our attorney represents several software companies). The legal mumbo jumbo generally makes my eyes glaze over, so I deeply apologize for conveying a douchebag like image. That's certainly not our intent.
We in no way want to keep anyone's money if they "default". Considering this pertains a web purchase, the credit card is either good or it isn't. If it doesn't work out we'll put the order aside for you, see if there is another payment method available, or whatever it takes to get you Legion gear.
We love it if you take courses and train with firearms, but if you don't want to, then you don't have to. This clause is really dumb.
Also, once you buy Legion kit, do what you want with it (except straw purchasing of course). We don't have any rights to it, or you, or anything in your gun safe after purchase. Again, this clause is ridiculous.
Finally, go ahead and talk about your Legion products. Whether it's good or bad we at Legion (and everyone on the internet) should know. We want to make everyone happy and really appreciate the feed back we get from our customers. This post is in fact good feedback. We f'ed up and we'll fix it. That's what we do.
Sorry again folks. Thanks for letting me know what we need to change.
Adam
Cool. While you're at it could you post some detailed specs of your weapons as well? Informed customers love that. MP testing of Bolt and Barrel, Barrel material, TDP stuff. I know basically every fart that went into my Colt, what makes a Legion tick other than the NIBX and other flashy things?
For the record I met these cats at SHOT and looked over their stuff. Visually everything seemed to be very nice. Never got much info on the specs.
I do know that there is at least one instructor using and testing one of their AR's so it will be interesting to see what he says.
I wouldn't mind getting one for T&E to see how it does.
Hi all,
I'm Adam Morehead, one of the co-founders of Legion Firearms. First of all, I agree with pretty much everything posted thus far. When we formed the company we wanted to be as rock solid as we could in our terms and conditions, and in reading this feed back I know we went WAY TOO FAR. (BTW Montrala, you're right: our attorney represents several software companies). The legal mumbo jumbo generally makes my eyes glaze over, so I deeply apologize for conveying a douchebag like image. That's certainly not our intent.
We in no way want to keep anyone's money if they "default". Considering this pertains a web purchase, the credit card is either good or it isn't. If it doesn't work out we'll put the order aside for you, see if there is another payment method available, or whatever it takes to get you Legion gear.
We love it if you take courses and train with firearms, but if you don't want to, then you don't have to. This clause is really dumb.
Also, once you buy Legion kit, do what you want with it (except straw purchasing of course). We don't have any rights to it, or you, or anything in your gun safe after purchase. Again, this clause is ridiculous.
Finally, go ahead and talk about your Legion products. Whether it's good or bad we at Legion (and everyone on the internet) should know. We want to make everyone happy and really appreciate the feed back we get from our customers. This post is in fact good feedback. We f'ed up and we'll fix it. That's what we do.
Sorry again folks. Thanks for letting me know what we need to change.
Adam
Dude, that is a great post, and IMO you totally redeemed yourselves. I just went from zero interest to curious, so you made progress with at least one grumpy jerk on the internets!
:D
For the record I met these cats at SHOT and looked over their stuff. Visually everything seemed to be very nice. Never got much info on the specs.
I do know that there is at least one instructor using and testing one of their AR's so it will be interesting to see what he says.
I wouldn't mind getting one for T&E to see how it does.
Steve Fisher from Magpul i believe is an instructor that's using Legions rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6YOopv_X_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GvRhcZEy8M
I knew that. I just didn't want to broadcast it all over the net anymore than it is.
Steve Fisher from Magpul i believe is an instructor that's using Legions rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6YOopv_X_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GvRhcZEy8M
To the OP; I'm impressed you read that much depth into it.
To Adam Morehead; That's solid you standing up, hope you do well. Now kick your lawyer in the nads.
Well, first, thanks for the replies—it’s always good to learn from others. Here are my takeaways at this point:
1) These terms are not normal for this industry.
2) They may change at some point in the future.
3) Most of their prior customers didn’t read the terms. Or can’t, I suppose. But should have.
4) Many here don’t think that coating key parts and fluting the barrel in unusual ways are worth the money charged.
5) Good: Noveske, KAC, BCM, LaRue
6) Not so good: Mega Arms
7) Lawyers deserve the (bad) reputation they have.
8) Legion firearms is responsive if nothing else.
Again, my primary point in this thread was to learn what are normal terms in the industry and explain my dissatisfaction/call attention to these terms. Mission accomplished.
To address some of the rest of the comments briefly, I suppose I’ll add Noveske was always at the top of my list, and there is even an outfit here in Phoenix that I can take that gun to and Cerakote it myself. For an added cost, of course. I’m not so much a fan of ‘proprietary’ parts, and I understand a KAC is full of them, so they were a bit further down my list for that reason. But on it. As to the point about buying 2 Colts—good idea, generally. If I took that fork in the road, I’d be looking hard at Rock Rive Arms too.
I’m ok with cutting/leading edge stuff like Nickel-boron and Cerakote coatings, but only if I have good reason to believe that it is reliable and not just a gimmick. I’m satisfied that these coatings do provide a useful function, the only real decision there is costworthiness. Some of the things I read about LF's hex design affecting vibration and stiffness are technically true (I am a mechanical engineer), however I haven’t seen the evidence the ultimate effect is significant/worth it. For the rest who have not researched, I believe there was a less than formal claim of <1 MOA with 'standard' ammo, which, if true, would justify the price a bit more. To some such as myself.
Thanks again.
PS: Adam—Time will tell if you folks do make a change. It’s your business, you’re free to do it as you want—just as I am as a (potential) customer. Regardless, I do appreciate the fact that you responded at all. I’ll assert that I was not ‘trolling’; I read the terms for a reason; and I did find them unacceptable. I remain legitimately concerned about claims of barrel accuracy given these terms. I would suggest that if you have good and/or independent data...publish it! That would go a long way toward me opening my wallet.
As to the point about buying 2 Colts—good idea, generally. If I took that fork in the road, I’d be looking hard at Rock Rive Arms too.
2 colts are infinitely better than all the rra's in the world...
We have had a very happy business relationship with Jamie and Adam since 2010, both are outstanding guys, and I've heard nothing but great things about Legion Firearms as a company, and their products. In case anyone didn't know, Legion Firearms receivers are 45 degree compatible :)
6) Not so good: Mega Arms
Uh, you'd be dead wrong on that one bud.
MEGA Arms makes some of, if not the best AR receivers available - forged or billet. Always in spec, insane finish/anodizing. Just consistent quality.
Besides a few Noveske FFLs, all I run are MEGA receivers - I've had just about all the others. MEGA is top-tier stuff. If you knew anything about the company and their machine work, you'd know they strive to be the best with the limited products they offer. The arms side is a spin-off from their aerospace manufacturing side. Precision work.
If you're talking about the NiB finish, then I agree wholeheartedly - pretty darn silly to have an uncoated NiB exterior, but whatever.
I knew that. I just didn't want to broadcast it all over the net anymore than it is.
you knew that. Obviously. You were at the same class as he was when the video was shot. Others on the other hand, may not.
OP...glad you pointed all that out...buying something for that amount of money on the internet I too would have read all the disclaimers.
Legion seems like a messed up head trip company. Personally I'm going to stay away especially with so many other top quality rifle company's on the market.
alienb1212
07-13-12, 08:38
OP...glad you pointed all that out...buying something for that amount of money on the internet I too would have read all the disclaimers.
Legion seems like a messed up head trip company. Personally I'm going to stay away especially with so many other top quality rifle company's on the market.
I suggest you re-read the entire thread before making that statement, the manufacturer did respond.
Remember, folks, you can add all sorts of stuff into a EULA, ToS, or purchase agreement, but that does not mean that it has the force of law. I remember some software developer adding a clause that summarized "We own your immortal soul upon installing our software"
They just did it as a point to show that people never, ever read EULAs, and of course they cant enforce it (well...I hope)
Well that's about as "stand up" response as you'll ever see on the Internet. Well done.. Cheers.. Ron
Hi all,
I'm Adam Morehead, one of the co-founders of Legion Firearms. First of all, I agree with pretty much everything posted thus far. When we formed the company we wanted to be as rock solid as we could in our terms and conditions, and in reading this feed back I know we went WAY TOO FAR. (BTW Montrala, you're right: our attorney represents several software companies). The legal mumbo jumbo generally makes my eyes glaze over, so I deeply apologize for conveying a douchebag like image. That's certainly not our intent.
We in no way want to keep anyone's money if they "default". Considering this pertains a web purchase, the credit card is either good or it isn't. If it doesn't work out we'll put the order aside for you, see if there is another payment method available, or whatever it takes to get you Legion gear.
We love it if you take courses and train with firearms, but if you don't want to, then you don't have to. This clause is really dumb.
Also, once you buy Legion kit, do what you want with it (except straw purchasing of course). We don't have any rights to it, or you, or anything in your gun safe after purchase. Again, this clause is ridiculous.
Finally, go ahead and talk about your Legion products. Whether it's good or bad we at Legion (and everyone on the internet) should know. We want to make everyone happy and really appreciate the feed back we get from our customers. This post is in fact good feedback. We f'ed up and we'll fix it. That's what we do.
Sorry again folks. Thanks for letting me know what we need to change.
Adam
Interesting thread. Horrible purchase agreement for Legion.
Adam and the company need to revamp that whole page.
Positive Displacement
07-13-12, 11:14
Just saw the reply from them, that's top notch right there!
Stated before I saw the reply that I'd send my money to LMT or LaRue.
Iraq Ninja
07-13-12, 14:17
I need to comment here as someone who has ACTUALLY shot the Legion and familiar with the company. I am not bothered by the Lawyer stuff...
Our company first ran into Legion at SHOT, and was very impressed by their carbines and pistols.
Last month they sent us their loaner rifle, the same one featured on the MagPul video. We were using it for an upcoming TV episode and had it for almost two weeks. If anyone cares, I will name the show and date later, around October if you want to see it.
My first impression was that the thing was filthy and dry. I called Legion and was told not to clean it or lube it. The round count through it was in the 1000s. Ok, so we took it to the range a lot during this time, and added another 500 rounds through it without any dramas.
Impressions-
Seemed lighter, probably due to the hex barrel.
Accuracy was just about equal to our Noveskes.
Bolt carrier coating seemed to work well, and I still don't know where all the carbon and junk went to.
Hand guard was from Wilson Combat and very comfortable, though I would probably want the new Noveske guard.
The multicam dipping was holding up very very well. I was impressed and normally not a fan of such stuff.
justin_247
07-13-12, 14:27
+1 on this. Mega makes lowers and uppers for a bunch of different AR companies.
Uh, you'd be dead wrong on that one bud.
MEGA Arms makes some of, if not the best AR receivers available - forged or billet. Always in spec, insane finish/anodizing. Just consistent quality.
Besides a few Noveske FFLs, all I run are MEGA receivers - I've had just about all the others. MEGA is top-tier stuff. If you knew anything about the company and their machine work, you'd know they strive to be the best with the limited products they offer. The arms side is a spin-off from their aerospace manufacturing side. Precision work.
If you're talking about the NiB finish, then I agree wholeheartedly - pretty darn silly to have an uncoated NiB exterior, but whatever.
adameverywhere
07-13-12, 14:51
Hi guys,
Thanks for the kind words. There's a bunch of Tier One (sorry, I kinda hate that phrase) folks out there who have tried us out. Please feel free to reach out to any of them to get a feel for what were about.
We haven't figured out how to post these spec sheets on our site. (Damn you Volusion!) so I posted them to google docs. Here's the rub on the LF-15c and the LF-15d. I'll get pistol and LF4 specs out soon.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17R5lwWUbSOS5nnorwfsXxQMHrSyhXsiwjUUVkv8hkts/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KFRRzS4D5mHeNZ5dHIQq-WXTjG3F31w4WpbjxuHXgLs/edit
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KFRRzS4D5mHeNZ5dHIQq-WXTjG3F31w4WpbjxuHXgLs/edit)
It doesn't say so on the sheet but we also cryo treat our barrels. The benefit is to get closer to the life span of a cold hammer forged barrel but with the accuracy of a stainless unit.
Cheers,
Adam
adameverywhere
07-13-12, 14:56
To the OP; I'm impressed you read that much depth into it.
To Adam Morehead; That's solid you standing up, hope you do well. Now kick your lawyer in the nads.
Awesome! I cut out half the stuff from the original TOS and hope to have it reposted by the end of the weekend. Stay tuned.....
Hi guys,
Thanks for the kind words. There's a bunch of Tier One (sorry, I kinda hate that phrase) folks out there who have tried us out. Please feel free to reach out to any of them to get a feel for what were about.
We haven't figured out how to post these spec sheets on our site. (Damn you Volusion!) so I posted them to google docs. Here's the rub on the LF-15c and the LF-15d. I'll get pistol and LF4 specs out soon.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17R5lwWUbSOS5nnorwfsXxQMHrSyhXsiwjUUVkv8hkts/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KFRRzS4D5mHeNZ5dHIQq-WXTjG3F31w4WpbjxuHXgLs/edit
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KFRRzS4D5mHeNZ5dHIQq-WXTjG3F31w4WpbjxuHXgLs/edit)
It doesn't say so on the sheet but we also cryo treat our barrels. The benefit is to get closer to the life span of a cold hammer forged barrel but with the accuracy of a stainless unit.
Cheers,
Adam
Very cool. Bait your web designer with some chips, beer and hooters girls and get that up on your site !
I need to comment here as someone who has ACTUALLY shot the Legion and familiar with the company. I am not bothered by the Lawyer stuff...
Our company first ran into Legion at SHOT, and was very impressed by their carbines and pistols.
Last month they sent us their loaner rifle, the same one featured on the MagPul video. We were using it for an upcoming TV episode and had it for almost two weeks. If anyone cares, I will name the show and date later, around October if you want to see it.
My first impression was that the thing was filthy and dry. I called Legion and was told not to clean it or lube it. The round count through it was in the 1000s. Ok, so we took it to the range a lot during this time, and added another 500 rounds through it without any dramas.
Impressions-
Seemed lighter, probably due to the hex barrel.
Accuracy was just about equal to our Noveskes.
Bolt carrier coating seemed to work well, and I still don't know where all the carbon and junk went to.
Hand guard was from Wilson Combat and very comfortable, though I would probably want the new Noveske guard.
The multicam dipping was holding up very very well. I was impressed and normally not a fan of such stuff.
I would like to know about the upcoming show.
I don't really care about the agreement, I looked at it and honestly was turned off after the first paragraph, I HATE READING ANYTHING WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS. I feel like I am being yelled at. Use the shift key.
Adam,
Thanks for posting and clearing things up for us.
I suggest you re-read the entire thread before making that statement, the manufacturer did respond.
Remember, folks, you can add all sorts of stuff into a EULA, ToS, or purchase agreement, but that does not mean that it has the force of law. I remember some software developer adding a clause that summarized "We own your immortal soul upon installing our software"
They just did it as a point to show that people never, ever read EULAs, and of course they cant enforce it (well...I hope)
I did read this whole thread and have looked at Legions website. I read Legions response too but they still have their messed up policy in place if you want to take a chance and send them money for a gun. If Legion truly is not talking about of their neck then Legion needs to go re-vamp there policy to a much more reasonable policy.
I did read this whole thread and have looked at Legions website. I read Legions response too but they still have their messed up policy in place if you want to take a chance and send them money for a gun. If Legion truly is not talking about of their neck then Legion needs to go re-vamp there policy to a much more reasonable policy.
Their rep said that he was working on changing the posted policy.
adameverywhere
07-15-12, 16:06
New TOS in place. Mostly anyway. I've probably cut stuff I shouldn't and left stuff in that I shouldn't have as well. The document is now less than half as long. The stuff in caps is still in caps, but in the coming weeks I'll rewrite a whole new version, have a cooler lawyer check it out and let ya'll know.
Thanks again for letting us know.
Cheers,
Adam
Thanks for the update Adam.
I don't really care about the agreement, I looked at it and honestly was turned off after the first paragraph, I HATE READING ANYTHING WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS. I feel like I am being yelled at. Use the shift key.
While I don't doubt that you are not alone in this opinion--it is not a wise position to take. Ignorance of the law is no excuse... I've read a lot of stories of people who didn't know firing a warning shot is often a felony...
If you consent--you are bound by the terms of a contract, and I for one want to know what they are.
Adam, I understand your desire to protect yourself, but to a certain extent the seller and buyer are opposing—to the extent you protect yourself—you stick it to the buyer. That was clearly what you had done initially. That said, much like in wresting where you score 2 points for a takedown—and the same for an escape--as displeased as I was that you had that policy in the first place, I am pleased that you changed it.
I read the new policy, and the only one that gave me pause was the ‘in any dispute, even if not litigated, loser pays everything’ clause. Again, I understand your motivation for that clause, but as a customer that ‘blank check for any excess of yours’ does still concern me a bit. My decision making process just got a bit more difficult, however...
Lastly, my co-worker just bought a gun online from Bud's (a dealer not a manufacturer), and I asked him if he signed any agreement at all like this...and his answer was 'no'. It is possible that he wasn't as careful as me however.
Again, thanks for responding to a potential customer. That is the definition of customer service, regardless of what I buy.
If you consent--you are bound by the terms of a contract, and I for one want to know what they are.
I don't know how to do smileys with tapatalk but if I did I would insert the one where the guy is rolling around on the floor laughing and kicking his feet.
You think contracts are binding? And that this is one such contract even if they were?
DeltaSierra
07-17-12, 16:30
While I don't doubt that you are not alone in this opinion--it is not a wise position to take.
<snip>
Honestly, I've never before seen someone get this worked up over nothing...
You are making a mountain out of a molehill here...
At first glance, this sealed Legions fate I'm my mind. But Adam seems to have made things right. Good on him for that. Some companies would just tell you "You suck and we hate you.". :)
This one seemed to work fairly well the last carbine class I was at.
Fits the description of the rifle mentioned previously.
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m563/CountBulkula/91c69189.jpg
Interesting product. It looked like a well rounded rifle, the only things I was particularly attracted to were the barrel and Wilson handguard though.
speaking of iphones... autocorrect blows.
While I don't doubt that you are not alone in this opinion--it is not a wise position to take. Ignorance of the law is no excuse... I've read a lot of stories of people who didn't know firing a warning shot is often a felony...
If you consent--you are bound by the terms of a contract, and I for one want to know what they are.
:lol:
Not sure you get it. When I got sick of reading their "contract" they lost me as a potential customer. I read contacts that I sign. This is asinine one and I it is not one I even read, so I would not sign it. I have plenty or AR's don't need another right now but when I go looking it will be from someone w/o a "contract"
I don't know how to do smileys with tapatalk but if I did I would insert the one where the guy is rolling around on the floor laughing and kicking his feet.
You think contracts are binding? And that this is one such contract even if they were?
I couldn't find kicking feet but put an LOL in there for ya.
You on an iPhone or iPad Rob? I thought I had it figured out but don't. Tried a test, didn't work.
I believe I owe 2 apologies:
1) I seem to have misunderstood a comment that Mega was not a quality builder. Several corrected me there and nobody affirmed my point--fine and done. Mega=good.
2) USMCVET, I also appear to have misunderstood you. I interpreted your comment as a "I don't need no stinking badges" variant--that you stopped reading the terms because you either didn't care or didn't think they applied to you. My bad. I now understand either the details of the terms and/or the fact there were terms at all made you walk away. As it turns out, I think we are of like mind there...
Frankly, I think I had the right idea just the wrong person--I think my comments should have gone toward rob s who appears to believe that some if not all is not enforceable.
I'm not interested in debating the finer points of contract law, and I think I've got out of this thread what I wanted, so I'm almost certainly done with this post. That said, while I realize that some parts of a contract may be unenforceable--I'm not going to sign one on that assumption and hope I'm right. I also know that the assumption that parts are unenforceable may be wrong. If Rob s chooses to explain why he believes this (assuming my understanding is correct), I'll certainly review. If I have misunderstood him, I will apologize now rather than making another post.
To all who have responded (especially Adam)--a sincere thanks. I know I'm a bit wiser now, and I hope others are too.
I believe I owe 2 apologies:
1) I seem to have misunderstood a comment that Mega was not a quality builder. Several corrected me there and nobody affirmed my point--fine and done. Mega=good.
2) USMCVET, I also appear to have misunderstood you. I interpreted your comment as a "I don't need no stinking badges" variant--that you stopped reading the terms because you either didn't care or didn't think they applied to you. My bad. I now understand either the details of the terms and/or the fact there were terms at all made you walk away. As it turns out, I think we are of like mind there...
Frankly, I think I had the right idea just the wrong person--I think my comments should have gone toward rob s who appears to believe that some if not all is not enforceable.
I'm not interested in debating the finer points of contract law, and I think I've got out of this thread what I wanted, so I'm almost certainly done with this post. That said, while I realize that some parts of a contract may be unenforceable--I'm not going to sign one on that assumption and hope I'm right. I also know that the assumption that parts are unenforceable may be wrong. If Rob s chooses to explain why he believes this (assuming my understanding is correct), I'll certainly review. If I have misunderstood him, I will apologize now rather than making another post.
To all who have responded (especially Adam)--a sincere thanks. I know I'm a bit wiser now, and I hope others are too.
No worries man. I am impressed with Adam and his willingness to have an open discussion. Their gear looks impressive too.
The no stinking badges is one of my favorite quotes. I used it in a power point presentation last fall to a room full of cops :D
Hi all,
I'm Adam Morehead, one of the co-founders of Legion Firearms. First of all, I agree with pretty much everything posted thus far. When we formed the company we wanted to be as rock solid as we could in our terms and conditions, and in reading this feed back I know we went WAY TOO FAR. (BTW Montrala, you're right: our attorney represents several software companies). The legal mumbo jumbo generally makes my eyes glaze over, so I deeply apologize for conveying a douchebag like image. That's certainly not our intent.
We in no way want to keep anyone's money if they "default". Considering this pertains a web purchase, the credit card is either good or it isn't. If it doesn't work out we'll put the order aside for you, see if there is another payment method available, or whatever it takes to get you Legion gear.
We love it if you take courses and train with firearms, but if you don't want to, then you don't have to. This clause is really dumb.
Also, once you buy Legion kit, do what you want with it (except straw purchasing of course). We don't have any rights to it, or you, or anything in your gun safe after purchase. Again, this clause is ridiculous.
Finally, go ahead and talk about your Legion products. Whether it's good or bad we at Legion (and everyone on the internet) should know. We want to make everyone happy and really appreciate the feed back we get from our customers. This post is in fact good feedback. We f'ed up and we'll fix it. That's what we do.
Sorry again folks. Thanks for letting me know what we need to change.
Adam
Class act! I went from "WTF" to "outstanding..." in a matter of minutes.
Nicely done, there are a lot of companies that could learn from your candor, honesty and willingness to step up to the plate when an issue arose.
FiReBRETHa
08-04-14, 15:54
BUYER BEWARE: Legion Firearms
I am unsure where else to post this but I felt it necessary to put this out on the web ASAP before anyone else falls into their trap.
They are avoiding contact to their current customers and all this time they have been collecting new backorders while giving delivery times of a few weeks while customers from years ago have yet to receive delivery. I am still compiling all my information on what has occurred in my personal situation and will share that with you all shortly.
I attempted to reach them today only to get a voicemail box that cannot accept new messages because it is full. This does not bode well for me, especially for paying up front.
Just needed to keep the community apprised on what's going on.
Eurodriver
08-04-14, 16:02
Is there something about this company that would make me want to order from them in the first place? I've never heard of them. What makes their rifles worth $2,000?
AztecViking
08-04-14, 16:15
Something was mentioned on a Facebook link today and I decided to check Legions FB page. Wow, they have got a ton of irate customers slamming them with bad reviews. Hope everything works out for you man.
SpeedRacer
08-04-14, 16:50
Funny timing, Aaron Cowan @ Sage Dynamics just posted this up on Monderno today:
http://monderno.com/monderno/burned-legion-firearms/
If not mistaken when Legion first came out they had it written in terms of service if you gave them any type of negative reviews publicly, they would sue you. I remember a thread here about them (again, if not mistaken), I'll try and find it. EDIT here it is https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?108926-purchase-AR-Legion-Firearms.
.46caliber
08-04-14, 17:11
If not mistaken when Legion first came out they had it written in terms of service if you gave them any type of negative reviews publicly, they would sue you. I remember a thread here about them (again, if not mistaken), I'll try and find it.
That's just laughable. Who would ever think that's good business practice? Good luck OP. Their FB page is ugly.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
wow. Their facebook page is on fire. I feel for the customers who put up $....one of those 'should have bought a BCM' moments.
Jakedasnake
08-04-14, 17:30
I would never pay for anything "Up Front" anyway! If I did, it would be with my bank card! That way, if they don't deliver, my bank would pay me back, and then tear sparks outta their butts to get the money back! Affidavits my friend, Affidavits!
wildcard600
08-04-14, 17:45
i'm sure they are just busy prioritizing to get the rifles out to the SEALs and other SF operators who desperately need them and the civilian orders are getting pushed to the back burner. Think of the soldiers !!!
;)
Jeez. That sucks. Hope all those pre pays didn't all get spent on strippers and good times.
If not mistaken when Legion first came out they had it written in terms of service if you gave them any type of negative reviews publicly, they would sue you. I remember a thread here about them (again, if not mistaken), I'll try and find it. EDIT here it is https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?108926-purchase-AR-Legion-Firearms.
Lol, nice one. That's this thread. :D
I'd never buy a rifle from a company that wanted you to sign a contract like that, even if they retracted it, just the fact that they ever thought they could get away with something like that would be enough to never get my money, I don't care how good their shitty products are supposed to be.
Lol, nice one. That's this thread. :DThey just merged other thread with this thread..
They just merged other thread with this thread..
ah... you'll have to forgive me, still pretty new here. still though, it just cracked me up when I clicked on your link and it went to the same thread.
ah... you'll have to forgive me, still pretty new here. still though, it just cracked me up when I clicked on your link and it went to the same thread.Ya I hear ya!:D
FiReBRETHa
08-05-14, 23:08
Thanks for the merge. the more that know the better.
FiReBRETHa
08-07-14, 14:54
I am linking back to another thread where information was being posted on Legion.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?145529-legion-firearms/page2
Response from Adam 02/04/2014
Hi all. I'm Adam Morehead, the CEO of Legion Firearms. I realize this is a rather lengthy post but I wanted to get it all out on the table. So here it is...
I'll admit we’ve met our share of challenges in Legion’s short time in business so far. First of all, we’ve challenged ourselves to use new techniques and ideas to create the best weapon systems we possibly can. That continues to be our highest priority – bar none. We also challenged ourselves to change what people thought possible when ordering a truly high-quality firearm. That means providing not just a great gun, but also a great customer experience. That includes a level of transparency when we’re facing less positive challenges.
The last year has proven more challenging than anyone could have anticipated. After the tragedy in Connecticut, the landscape of the firearms market changed drastically. As most of you know, more people have been buying semi-automatic weapons than ever before. Dealers have had trouble keeping firearms and ammunition on their shelves.
What many of you may not know is, for those of us in the industry, this increase in demand has created enormous and ongoing challenges. While high-end rifles like Legion’s are not necessarily the primary subject of this purchasing frenzy, our rifles do share many of the parts that mass-produced rifles also require. Larger manufacturers were able to increase production at the expense of smaller manufacturers like Legion Firearms who ended up at the back of the line. We simply can’t compete with the big guys who can place purchase orders for 200,000 or more parts at a time. We’ve done whatever we could to keep shipping rifles and pistols, but we’ve been nowhere near able to keep up with the demand.
To make matters worse, our barrel manufacturer suffered a huge blow as their primary facility was reclaimed by the government, forcing them to move at the worst possible time. Orders we expected in January didn’t arrive until August. After applying our HEX fluting and cryo-treatment to the barrels, we discovered a new problem: this large batch of barrels was not up to Legion’s uncompromising accuracy standards.
This was incredibly demoralizing for us and for many of our customers who had been waiting patiently, some for as long as a year. Some of our staff have suffered physically from the stress of these setbacks. We’ve lost team members that we love. Our communication with customers has suffered, as have many of our business relationships.
These challenges have affected us and our competitors alike. Some companies were forced to shut down completely. Others began shipping products with substandard components. We’re determined to find new ways to rise to the challenge. STAY IN THE FIGHT isn’t just a slogan. It’s our mission. It’s how we approach every challenge we face every day, no matter how large or small. We won’t compromise our ideals or the high standards our customers have come to expect by taking shortcuts to delivery. We will make first-rate products, regardless of how long it takes. That’s what we expect of ourselves. Nothing less than what we promise.
As CEO, it’s up to me to keep that promise and to make Legion Firearms as prepared as it can be for future challenges.
We’ve worked hard with our barrel maker to implement ways to identify and remedy issues before barrels leave the factory floor. In turn, the barrel vendor has worked hard to get us replacements and fix issues with existing units so that we can get back on track as soon as possible.
We've brought in new blood (who some of you know already) with fresh eyes and unwavering dedication to help us deliver products I would have bet my life we would have delivered months ago.
We’re working with new creditors and investors to expand our production and inventory capacity. I’m also proud to announce that we now produce our own uppers and lowers right here in Central Texas. These measures are designed to reduce our overall lead times and afford us a higher level of quality control. Moreover, these are huge steps toward ensuring that challenges like the ones we’ve faced this last year won’t happen again.
It's been a slower process than we'd like but we have been shipping rifles and parts to customers as quick as we can while insuring the quality ya'll deserve.
Over the last month, I’ve taken on a more involved role in the sales department. It’s my goal to talk to as many customers as I can as often as I can. If I haven’t already reached you personally, I want you to feel free to contact me directly. I can be reached at 512.646.2678, ext. 704, or by email at AdamMorehead@LegionFirearms.com.
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