been shooting low and left for years now......

[kenndapp]

i give my grip some extra love right before my shot breaks. my trigger finger moves......the rest of my finger simultaneously tighten up, giving a shifting and inconsistent grip as the shot breaks. combine that with the physiological induced flinch of "oh my god, its about to break the shot and recoil!" and i am left with a crappy low and left pattern on my target.this seems to happen with any pistol i try... although i have been using glocks pretty much exclusively for the past year.


let me kick this off with a disclaimer:

-i know why i shoot low and left
-i know how not to shoot low and left
-i only shoot low and left at what i call "realistic speed" or "time is life" speed.
- i can print very nice groups at 10, 25, even out to 50 yards sometimes. but, they come very slow and require enough mental struggle to stay focused on the fundamentals to give me a head ache and blurred vision. accuracy with a pistol is a very difficult and painstaking mental battle for me.

things i have tried:

-finger position on the trigger...... tip, middle of pad, just left of crease, and even right on the crease.
-trigger pull fundamentals.... slow straight press to the rear, shoot from the reset, follow though.
-snap caps in the mag to reveal the problem.
-slightly modified grip technique.
-slow, slow, constant focus on the fundamentals...... improvements shown but do not last.
-research and videos
- local classes
-one on one training with more advanced shooters.
-begging for advice.
-dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.......more dry fire.

i have tried every thing from random snap caps in the mag to thousands upon thousands of successful slow trigger press rounds downrange....with good results i might add. when i slow down and focus on the fundamentals the low and left problems disappear...obviously. but when i speed up to an acceptable level of speed i fall right back in to the same bad trigger jerking habit. i just cant seem to shake it. i want to train a realistic speed but i seem constitutionally incapable of applying any sort of handgun marksmanship fundamentals when shooting at a"realistic" or "time is life" speed. it all just goes out the window. again this has been going on for years now. every time i seem to "shake" or "brake" the bad habit with slow consistent training....it comes right back when things speed up a bit. what the hell is wrong with me the reason i cant learn to isolate my trigger finger from the rest of my hand except when at crawling turtle speed? why cant i learn not to give my grip that extra love right before my shot breaks? obviously thees problems don't surface with a long gun but i cant very well walk around with an ar15 strapped to my back all the time, now can i?
is there anyone who has had this problem that was able to brake it for good? i fully understand "speed if fine but, accuracy is final" and "you cannot miss fast enough to catch up" but there is a such thing as an unrealistic or ineffective speed. especially when speaking in terms of defensive shooting to save a life of myself or a loved one. i am at a loss here guys. any one struggled with this as much as i have? please advise. thank you.

[jumpthestack]

If you only have the problem when shooting fast, try shooting in increasingly fast cadence.

e.g.
Count out loud:
one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, four one thousand, five one thousand, six one thousand. When you say the count is when the gun should go off. That's about one round per second. Practice until you can get a sufficiently tight/centered group at whatever distance you deem appropriate.

Then do the cadence of
one and two and three and four and five and six
which is about one round every half second. When you can do that, do

one two three four five six
as fast as you can say it. That will be about one round every 1/4 second. For each of these, you should physically say the words out loud with your mouth to get the right timing. Believe it or not, if you just think the count in your brain, it will not be as consistent in timing as saying it out loud.

The point is to slowly increase your speed in a measurable way, rather than just "slow" and "fast".

[Socom Elite]

The op is almost my exact same story too. I have been practicing to keep them centered with small improvements, but not what I'd like.

[MFP]

I learned a new trigger “press” that is more of a “flick.” It is essential working the trigger reset while the weapon is cycling opposed to waiting for the reset “click.” This trigger “flick” was counter intuitive to me but afterwards I was taken aback by how tight my groups were especially with follow-up shots and rapid firing. This method seemed to cure my “Glocking the trigger.” That and adding more finger.

This "flick" may work for you. Give it a try.

[kenndapp]

I learned a new trigger “press” that is more of a “flick.” It is essential working the trigger reset while the weapon is cycling opposed to waiting for the reset “click.” This trigger “flick” was counter intuitive to me but afterwards I was taken aback by how tight my groups were especially with follow-up shots and rapid firing. This method seemed to cure my “Glocking the trigger.” That and adding more finger.

This "flick" may work for you. Give it a try.

so add more finger (closer to crease of joint) and don't wait for the reset? as in reset during cycling? what about follow through? i was told that was an important element, no? if i am letting out as soon as the shot breaks i am not following through, correct? just trying to understand exactly what you mean. i am fascinated right now as i thought i have tried every thing yet this sounds new to me. this may warrant another trip to the range tomorrow.

[C4IGrant]

Have you done the ball and dummy drills?

You most likely need to work with an experienced trainer that knows how to ID a flinch, replace the flinch with a good trigger pull and then run you through drills that will force you to address it.

C4

[Hmac]

Louis Awerbuck, at his pistol courses, always starts the first day by asking for an honest show of hands as to who is having POA/POI disparities. Always, a few reluctant hands start to go up. He starts the range work by taking those honest enough to admit their issue and watch them shoot individually. In an almost Yoda-like manner, he diagnoses and treats the issue. It's uncanny to watch.

He always hands out this chart at every course.

http://ssequine.net/pistolchart.jpg

[MFP]

so add more finger (closer to crease of joint) and don't wait for the reset? as in reset during cycling? what about follow through? i was told that was an important element, no? if i am letting out as soon as the shot breaks i am not following through, correct? just trying to understand exactly what you mean. i am fascinated right now as i thought i have tried every thing yet this sounds new to me. this may warrant another trip to the range tomorrow.

Grant raises a good point - ball and dummy drill with an experienced trainer will help you identify your flinch. I ran this drill attending a VSM class and others with reputable trainers.

Search this forum and you will see those that are experts in their field describe, via youtube, the idea of using more "finger" on the trigger. Adding more finger is closer to the first crease in your finger. The flick, I believe, was developed by Sig Sauer and the Sig Sauer Academy. This method, to my understanding, is taught by a school down south to new military recruits. You maintain follow-through after the flick and always check your points. Worked very well with rapid fire as you are firing in cadence with your weapon recoil.

I would start with more finger for the trigger "press" and proceed from there. The SME that explains this on this forum, with youtube explaination, also gives a good example of what to expect when dry firing with more finger versus less trigger. You can actually see your gun "pull" low left.

Others in this forum, especially Grant and company, will have good tools as well to help you overcome this issue.

MFP

[Heavy Metal]

Have you done the ball and dummy drills?

You most likely need to work with an experienced trainer that knows how to ID a flinch, replace the flinch with a good trigger pull and then run you through drills that will force you to address it.

C4

I bet he is dropping his wrist, I.E. got a wrist snatch. Wehn I go 'over the edge' pushing my speed, this is what I do. Thankfully, it is getting so I can go a good bit faster and not do it.

Lots of practice, about 5 thousand rounds a year and dryfire to isolate the trigger finger muscle. Learing to not overly obsess over the sight picture and to try and press cleanly straight thru the break point on the trigger helped me.

[Kokopelli]

I bought a Kimber that shot low and left several years ago. Turns out it had a virus.. I foolishly put it in the safe and now every pistol I buy and put in that safe shoots low and left.. ;) Ron

[kenndapp]

thanks guy. some is this stuff i knew and some of it is new to me. either way its helping to hear it again.i will defiantly be going closer to the crease of the first joint on my trigger finger. the "flick" still has me a bit confused. but if i am reading correctly i need to let off the trigger sooner and not search for the reset as much??? this thread is inspiring a bit more determination. thank you.

[MFP]

Kenndapp

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=93671&page=4

This thread should help you. Good information to address your topic and the two video links are included and created by Surf. The videos are long but filled with great information that will help you with the dynamics of a trigger "Press."

IM me about the flick if you are interested.

[kenndapp]

thank you to every one who has responded to this thread so far. the charts and links have been helpful.
this is one has been helpful too.............

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=109016

[Failure2Stop]

You made some initial comments about your shooting ability and when it breaks down, but some more information would help.

What does a 5 shot group fired at your own pace at 25 yards look like on a bullseye target? Where is the group centered, how big is it, are you able to consistently call your shots?
Is the sighting eye open through the entire shot process, from sight alignment to follow-through?
When does anticipation become a distinct issue? Distance and split time/perception of sight tracking?
What are you shooting? Have you tried a lower recoiling option?
How often do you dry-fire?

Here's something you can do on your own:
Print off a few of these:
http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10132.pdf
They are (4) 3" circles on a white background.

At 3 to 5 yards you should be able to consistently put 5 rounds into the circle. Gradually speed up your cadence until you lose a round.
Back speed off until you are consistently placing all shots into the circle and then start increasing pace again.
When you start to have a consistent failure speed, increase distance by a yard and start again.

Of course, this is practics for someone that does not have an issue with anticipation at a slow pace. There are ways to work out anticipation, but it helps tremendously to have a decent observer to help push you through it. Reinforcing fundamental skills, specifically trigger control, is the base concept.

Trigger control as it relates to your issue is not so much about making sure that you get the utmost precision by way of trigger manipulation, but rather that the only thing that moves during the firing sequence is the trigger finger.

[kenndapp]

You made some initial comments about your shooting ability and when it breaks down, but some more information would help.

What does a 5 shot group fired at your own pace at 25 yards look like on a bullseye target? Where is the group centered, how big is it, are you able to consistently call your shots?
Is the sighting eye open through the entire shot process, from sight alignment to follow-through?
When does anticipation become a distinct issue? Distance and split time/perception of sight tracking?
What are you shooting? Have you tried a lower recoiling option?
How often do you dry-fire?

Here's something you can do on your own:
Print off a few of these:
http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10132.pdf
They are (4) 3" circles on a white background.

At 3 to 5 yards you should be able to consistently put 5 rounds into the circle. Gradually speed up your cadence until you lose a round.
Back speed off until you are consistently placing all shots into the circle and then start increasing pace again.
When you start to have a consistent failure speed, increase distance by a yard and start again.

Of course, this is practics for someone that does not have an issue with anticipation at a slow pace. There are ways to work out anticipation, but it helps tremendously to have a decent observer to help push you through it. Reinforcing fundamental skills, specifically trigger control, is the base concept.

Trigger control as it relates to your issue is not so much about making sure that you get the utmost precision by way of trigger manipulation, but rather that the only thing that moves during the firing sequence is the trigger finger.
thank you for that. to answer a few questions:
i call a good 5 shot group at 25 yards anything under 6", which they are if i do my part well. sometimes a little smaller and unfortunately sometimes larger. and they tend to be low and left but not constantly. both eyes are open all the time. it seems to be a problem weather i am moving slow shooting for accuracy at distance or moving faster closer up. it just happens. it seems the harder i try, the harder i fail. i am shooting both a g21sf and a g17. i have the same problem with both. i cant find ant distinction in the problem between the two pistols. i dry fire almost everyday from 15min. to 30min, roughly speaking. dry fire goes great. front sight doesn't move.

[Failure2Stop]

Can you track the movement of the front sight post through recoil, or does it kind of "appear" back in view after the bang?

[G_M]

thank you for that. to answer a few questions:
i call a good 5 shot group at 25 yards anything under 6", which they are if i do my part well. sometimes a little smaller and unfortunately sometimes larger. and they tend to be low and left but not constantly. both eyes are open all the time. it seems to be a problem weather i am moving slow shooting for accuracy at distance or moving faster closer up. it just happens. it seems the harder i try, the harder i fail. i am shooting both a g21sf and a g17. i have the same problem with both. i cant find ant distinction in the problem between the two pistols. i dry fire almost everyday from 15min. to 30min, roughly speaking. dry fire goes great. front sight doesn't move.
So your story sounds like mine, good slow but terrible when I speed up. Trust me I feel your pain! My flinch throws things everywhere but usually to the left. Here is my insight to my problem and maybe it will help you since we walk a similar path. I'm not a trainer or anything but I'm just throwing out what has worked for me hoping that it helps you come up with ideas to figure things out.

My goal: I need a good subconscious trigger pull at speed on demand.

What I know: I know three things that are part of my flinch and I thought up some exercises that help me address them.

My slow trigger pull turns to a jerk at speed so I need to Develop a solid trigger pull at speed
a) Dry fire against a wall or white background no target. I use a shot timer and start my trigger pull and end it before I hear the beep. I started out at 2 seconds and work my way down until I hit my limit. Then I stayed there until I could move on and kept going down until I can do it instantly on the beep. I am currently working on this 1-handed but I started with two.

My brain just expects the gun to go off and preempts the event because the glock trigger is a inconsistent SOB. So I need to de-program my brain to react to the gun
b) Simple. I just shoot and let the recoil take the gun wherever refusing to react.

No Feed Back Loop & Calling the Shot
c) I am no neurosciencetest or anything but I think fixing a flinch is hard because there is no feed back loop to the brain that you did something wrong. It's just *bang* and you screwed up. My brain doesn't know what happened so it doesn't know what to correct. By calling the shot I was able to at first see there is a difference in what I saw and what happened. Then as time went by I started to see it happening which is the all important part and I was able to "close the loop".

So I try to call the shot. I usually sit around 12-15yards, just out of range where I can see bullet holes but close enough to where I can lean forward and see them. I usually do something timed and shoot at shapes I drew. This is what I did this weekend.

12 yards from holster 1 shot to a triangle
Initial Par time 10 seconds
Shoot one round before the buzzer and if I called the shot successfully I reduce the par time by 1 second until I could no longer call the shot.
Stay at the par time I can call the shot and then try to work my way down.

I don't know what other advice you will get but that is my 2cents. Hope you figure it out though.

[MegademiC]

I am by no means an expert, but it sounds like you are trying to finger the trigger too fast. I also had this probem, you can only move your finger so fast before your whole hand tightens up with it - without practice. Get a 22 slide or something that you can use cheaply that has similar trigger pull to your glock. Pull the trigger as fast as you can and still not move the sight - but push that fine-line barrier - it will probably be very slow at first but will get quicker.

Once you get that down, apply it to your current setup. Go as slow as needed to maintain good trigger control and sight tracking. Dont try to take up slack in the trigger, one fuid motion, in-out in one quick, but smooth motion, and hit it again as soon as that fsp falls between the rear blades and onto the target.

Hope this helps. Keep in mind this has worked for me, but im not a master-class or an sme - so take it FWIW;) Good luck!

Edit to add that "b" from post above is HUGE. I still do this if I take too long off between range sessions. Reaction is to counter te recoil by torquing the wrist down and clenching all fingers. This only makes it harder to get back on target. This is a grip problem in my amature opinion. Grip the gun so tight you shake, then loosen it just until you stop trembling. This is how tight you want to hold it.

Its really hard to see whats wrong and explain over the internet. I would suggest either getting a friend who is a really good shooter to help, or get some professional training IMO. It sounds like you just need another person to find out the specific cause and help you break throught it. Trainers deal with this every day and should be able to get you through it pretty quickly, or at least get you on your way.

[kenndapp]

Can you track the movement of the front sight post through recoil, or does it kind of "appear" back in view after the bang?

f2s.... not exactly. the front sight comes back in the general area it needs to but doesn't really fall exactly back between the rear notch. it seems to always need to be slightly adjusted back to its proper place between the rear notch. sometimes it falls closer than others.

[Failure2Stop]

f2s.... not exactly. the front sight comes back in the general area it needs to but doesn't really fall exactly back between the rear notch. it seems to always need to be slightly adjusted back to its proper place between the rear notch. sometimes it falls closer than others.

I really don't care about where it returns, what I am asking about is what you see.
When you fire a shot, can you watch the front sight lift and drop back down? Can you see it lift, but not drop? Do you not see it lift, but see it drop? Do you not see it lift or drop, simply experience recoil and then try to find the sights?

[kenndapp]

I really don't care about where it returns, what I am asking about is what you see.
When you fire a shot, can you watch the front sight lift and drop back down? Can you see it lift, but not drop? Do you not see it lift, but see it drop? Do you not see it lift or drop, simply experience recoil and then try to find the sights?

Sorry. I misunderstood. Yes, I see it rise and fall.

[Failure2Stop]

Sorry. I misunderstood. Yes, I see it rise and fall.

This is good.
What I am trying to figure out is where your flinch/anticipation/push is originating.
If you can see the lift and drop, at least we know that you are keeping your eye(s) open through the shot, which is step one.
Now you need to isolate the hands and trigger finger.

Run the practice drill I posted eariler.
At that close range you can shoot with a target focus (target is in focus, sights are blurry) as long as your sights are in distinct contrast with the target and get immediate feed-back on fall of shot, which will help you reinforce the "right" way to fire the gun versus inducing a pre-ignition push.

[MegademiC]

by trying to go fast you may be flinching your hand as stated earlier. Dont worry about speed - let the gun rise and fall naturally, then press the trigger again. Maintaining a tight and proper grip and stance will cause the gun to get on target faster. Start slow with a full mag and get into a rythm and you should find yourself slowly increasing in speed. After significant practice like this, you will be able to draw and start shooting accurately quickly since it will become muscle memory.

Again, just some personal pointers from an average shooter - pay close attention to f2s as hes a professional.

[kenndapp]

this thread has been great. thank you every one and thank you f2s. i will be running that drill this weekend. i think most of my problem lies in my failure to isolate my finger and to work from the middle joint. choking up on the trigger finger my be necessary as well, working closer to the joint. i think i may run that drill in conjunction with some cap and ball....even though i am 100% sure i suffer from a pre-ignition push. seeing it happen when the weapon goes "click" just keeps the issue painfully obvious. how do i get over that impulse to push, squeeze, or death grip the weapon milliseconds before the ignition of the primer?

[Kokopelli]

I like Jeff Coppers techniques.. Ron

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

[Failure2Stop]

I think that Col Cooper had some brilliant insight, but I do not agree with him on this one other than for Bullseye type application.

There is no way that i am getting a surprise break with split times under .5 second. Trigger control is not synonymous with surprise break, it is simply a way to learn trigger control.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Redhat]

this thread has been great. thank you every one and thank you f2s. i will be running that drill this weekend. i think most of my problem lies in my failure to isolate my finger and to work from the middle joint. choking up on the trigger finger my be necessary as well, working closer to the joint. i think i may run that drill in conjunction with some cap and ball....even though i am 100% sure i suffer from a pre-ignition push. seeing it happen when the weapon goes "click" just keeps the issue painfully obvious. how do i get over that impulse to push, squeeze, or death grip the weapon milliseconds before the ignition of the primer?

I find that keeping my mental focus on the sight alignment / sight picture / trigger press more than the impending "boom" helps in that area. Exercises like pencil shot drills and ball and dummy will help but ultimately "YOU" have to overcome it. Sometimes, it may be necessary to stop worrying about your shot grouping and focus on shooting the gun with the objective of just maintaining a proper steady grip and trigger manipulation. If you concentrate on all the other things you need to do, the hits will be there.

[rob_s]

I've had a similar issue with the handgun for years. For me it comes down to a lack of confidence in my hold/stability thereby leading me to clamp down on the gun as I snatch the crap out of the trigger trying to make it go off when the sights are aligned. While I understand the criticisms of the surprise break, you also can't *make* the gun go off either, as evidenced by any pistol target I shoot at.

What's interesting is that at shorter distance I'll shoot more accurately by NOT getting a hard front sight focus. This is because, I think, I'm not so focused on the sight and therefore don't notice the wobble as much and can just pull the trigger. I also shoot better, again at closer range, when I go faster. John McPhee made a comment in the class I attended about the sight picture never getting any better than it is at the beginning, and that concept was helpful to me.

With the carbine the sight obviously moves less, so I trust it more, so I don't have the same problem. and I didn't help myself by shooting 1911s for years which masked my issues to a large degree because it was more forgiving of the same mistakes.

OP, you may have mentioned it, but what kind of dryfire do you do? If you're able to drill the centers out when shooting slowfire perhaps a dryfire regimen that involves par times would be helpful to allow you to take your perfect slowfire trigger pull and speed it up.