View Full Version : New 4473 question? Are you hispanic or latino?
Belmont31R
07-13-12, 17:43
Hows this not racial discrimination? Also any FFL's on here confirm this is the new form? Not latino or hispanic but if I was Id be pretty pissed about being singled out, racially, on a form to buy a firearm. Kinda like being asked if you're a jew in 1939.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/574cb7a1.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
07-13-12, 18:01
I understand what you are saying and agree but technically speaking Hispanic/Latino is not a "race" its an "ethnicity" and the .gov classifies people of Hispanic/Latino ethnicity to be white. This is why you see so many times on various .gov forms there is a "white non-hispanic" box to check.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-13-12, 23:40
Why just Hispanic or latino?
How sexist is it that it doesn't have latina?
Can you prove, or really dispprove, someones race or ethnicity claim? Why is this even on the form?
Slightly interested in not completing the section and when I get turned down (so I have standing) filing a lawsuit. I understand the physical descriptions, but not the race or ethnicity.
I filled one out last week and I noticed there wasn't a 'multiple' one or a fill in the blank. No middle-eastern? I guess they are white? Bet they are going to be pissed off about that one. Or are they supposed to pick Asian- which would cover everyone from Japan to the Bosphorous Straits? That's a useful way to clump people together?
What about North Africans? Want to tell them that they are now "Brothers"?
Please, please, please make the follow on version have a "Other:specify________" so I can put in 'Superior' or "Human" for race.
What is this used for?
And what happens if you don't check any box for ethnicity and/or race?
On THR site, the claim was made that dealers are now asked those questions on the phone by the NICS person as of 07/09/12. Will they deny you for not filling that out?
What about in those states that have substituted a state run check system?
Time I think to fire up ye olde letter writer and ask my Congressperson and Senators about this...
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Belmont31R
07-14-12, 01:04
I understand what you are saying and agree but technically speaking Hispanic/Latino is not a "race" its an "ethnicity" and the .gov classifies people of Hispanic/Latino ethnicity to be white. This is why you see so many times on various .gov forms there is a "white non-hispanic" box to check.
I dont care what the gov says. Im not the same "ethnicity" as a mexican with south American blood in them. Theres spanish like Mexicans and theres indian mexicans. My dutch blood has NOTHING to do with spanish origin south Americans nor American indian Mexicans.
Moose-Knuckle
07-14-12, 02:37
I dont care what the gov says.
Well good for you, nor do I.
But since when has what you and I or the rest of We the People care about matter?
The other posters bring up a good point about race in general. But your OP questioned the ethnicity box. So, if it’s acceptable to ask for one's race why not ethnicity too?
Let’s not get bent around the axle about this, you are trying to make sense out of the abyss of Federal government idiocy.
I still ponder as to why we have to fill out a damn 4473 in the first place. . . :confused:
Belmont31R
07-14-12, 02:40
I still ponder as to why we have to fill out a damn 4473 in the first place. . . :confused:
So they can show up at my house with a record of all the guns I bought, intel on my relatives, and want to see all your guns!
I know CSB....but it happened to me.....
How sexist is it that it doesn't have latina?
Not that I'm an expert in Spanish, but I understand that when talking about male and female subjects together, the male ending is always used as the possessive.
Moose-Knuckle
07-14-12, 03:34
So they can show up at my house with a record of all the guns I bought, intel on my relatives, and want to see all your guns!
....but it happened to me.....
Precisely.
kaiservontexas
07-14-12, 10:07
http://img208.imagevenue.com/loc241/th_274715503_red_dawn02_122_241lo.jpg (http://img208.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=274715503_red_dawn02_122_241lo.jpg)
I wonder what they will do if you give false information as an answer to the new question? I am not saying I would do that, but for an example if I said Asian when in fact my heritage is German, so, I am obviously white.
I bet you they have a punishment being cooked up somewhere. Though they never give grief, from my understanding, over all those other files we check box that answer on.
please make the follow on version have a "Other:specify________" so I can put in 'Superior' or "Human" for race.
Yeah, tried that on last census by ticking 'other' and writing in 'American' for any question that delt with race or ethnicity.
It took them 16 days to have people beating on my door threatening fines and/or jail if I didn't comply and put in a 'recognized' race and ethnicity.
That was just a headcount. Imagine the asshattery if it was over guns!
Interesting prospect though.
Try to find out if someone is hispanic, then bounce that off the type and # of weapons on the form, then using millions of taxpayer dollars and resources to try and make a determination as to whether the purchase was legitimate, or just some straw buyer working for the cartels.
I believe they call it 'profiling'...
Yeah, tried that on last census by ticking 'other' and writing in 'American' for any question that delt with race or ethnicity.
It took them 16 days to have people beating on my door threatening fines and/or jail if I didn't comply and put in a 'recognized' race and ethnicity.
I did not fill out any of that. When the census people came, I told them how many people and that all were US citizens and that I was done. They tried to get me to fill out the rest and I just refused.
They stopped coming by.
However, I would have told them that you DID fill out a recognized ethnicity. They gave you a spot on the form called OTHER, right? So you checked OTHER. It was on their form.
That was just a headcount. Imagine the asshattery if it was over guns!
Interesting prospect though.
Try to find out if someone is hispanic, then bounce that off the type and # of weapons on the form, then using millions of taxpayer dollars and resources to try and make a determination as to whether the purchase was legitimate, or just some straw buyer working for the cartels.
I believe they call it 'profiling'...
Of course they can profile. That is the whole point of government now-a-days. Profile and provide "benefits" if you match.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-14-12, 11:34
Bought a few lowers the other day, saw that and chuckled. I think its so they can find recruits for Fast and Furious 2.
Not sure how they could dispute whatever nonsense you put down unless they do a full investigation.
My daughters are 50% hispanic from a long line of Mexican and Puerto Rican yet they have very little visible traits of such. One has much more of the Irish look and in high school won the honor of Top Hispanic student of the year and classmates were dumbstruck.
On the other hand my wife who looks like her heritage shares nothing of the supposed Hispanic culture. She and her family are legal citizens, many served in combat, several are lawyers and one is a judge, others are doctors. 80% of them are very conservative, patriotic, and anti illegal immigration. They do not vote as an Hispanic block, are well educated, speak both languages, and most are professionals. How does marking them Hispanic on a government form have any meaning whatsoever?
If I marked African or Hispanic or Asian and claimed some of that ancestry how can they refute without a real background check? That is the stupidity of these race/ethnic boxes. They really want to lump people in skin color, hair color boxes. But region of family origin does not always equate to a single color or culture.
SeriousStudent
07-14-12, 13:24
I have a friend that runs a local business, and he was born in South Africa. So he always checks "African American".
The fact that he looks like a Viking always leads to interesting conversations. The one that was really fascinating was if he was a minority-owned busniess. He just sat and watched with a grin on his face whilst the city employees duked it out. One claimed he was, the other claimed he was not.
Apparently they are still duking that one out.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-14-12, 13:28
The SCOTUS has said that you can claim that you are a 9th level SOF ninja who won the Iraq war while serving in both the Army and Navy and earning two MOHs.
That's all provable facts. Aren't we all africans if we go back far enough. Is there some kind of test for racial grouping?
The SCOTUS has said that you can claim that you are a 9th level SOF ninja who won the Iraq war while serving in both the Army and Navy and earning two MOHs.
That's all provable facts. Aren't we all africans if we go back far enough. Is there some kind of test for racial grouping?
Good point. My claim to be an Jewish African American Hispanic Female Lesbian is protected under the 1st amendment.
And if I feel "female" I can claim to be one.
note: all the above is hypothetical IF I were to claim such a thing, which I have not.
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Why just Hispanic or latino?
How sexist is it that it doesn't have latina?
Can you prove, or really dispprove, someones race or ethnicity claim? Why is this even on the form?
Slightly interested in not completing the section and when I get turned down (so I have standing) filing a lawsuit. I understand the physical descriptions, but not the race or ethnicity.
I filled one out last week and I noticed there wasn't a 'multiple' one or a fill in the blank. No middle-eastern? I guess they are white? Bet they are going to be pissed off about that one. Or are they supposed to pick Asian- which would cover everyone from Japan to the Bosphorous Straits? That's a useful way to clump people together?
What about North Africans? Want to tell them that they are now "Brothers"?
Please, please, please make the follow on version have a "Other:specify________" so I can put in 'Superior' or "Human" for race.
What is this used for?
No you can't. Had (what I consider) a FULL Asian put WHITE on a 4473 form once. Had to laugh and ask him WTF????? He advised me that is Mother was Japanese and his Father was white. So he chose to consider himself white.
C4
Moose-Knuckle
07-14-12, 16:53
How does marking them Hispanic on a government form have any meaning whatsoever?
If I marked African or Hispanic or Asian and claimed some of that ancestry how can they refute without a real background check? That is the stupidity of these race/ethnic boxes. They really want to lump people in skin color, hair color boxes. But region of family origin does not always equate to a single color or culture.
In the .gov eyes it is another "physical identifier" (i.e. height, weight, sex, etc.) so if they go after you they can readily identify you. As Belmont pointed out, this is all about keeping tabs on We The People and who owns guns or not. Ever see Red Dawn? ;)
I have a friend that runs a local business, and he was born in South Africa. So he always checks "African American".
The fact that he looks like a Viking always leads to interesting conversations. The one that was really fascinating was if he was a minority-owned busniess. He just sat and watched with a grin on his face whilst the city employees duked it out. One claimed he was, the other claimed he was not.
Apparently they are still duking that one out.
AWESOME! I have one friend who was born in Rhodesia, he is a white Jew and another friend who was born in South Africa, she is also a white Jew. They could have some real fun with this! :D
The_War_Wagon
07-14-12, 17:34
As long as "Cracka," "Honky," "Paddy," or "Whitey" remains on the form, I'm OK. :rolleyes:
NoveskeFan
07-14-12, 17:46
The old form had one #10 box. Hispanic or Latino was listed with the other races where you check all that apply. Still not sure why they felt the need to give it a specific box, unless one can only be Hispanic/Latino or not.
Moose-Knuckle
07-14-12, 18:03
As long as "Cracka," "Honky," "Paddy," or "Whitey" remains on the form, I'm OK. :rolleyes:
:confused:
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-14-12, 18:34
Check out the list of ethnic groups at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_ethnic_groups#L
But the ATF only cares about hispanic/latino or not? Who wants a 4473 with all the ethnicities?
Isn't this racist, or ethnistist?
Yeah, tried that on last census by ticking 'other' and writing in 'American' for any question that delt with race or ethnicity.
It took them 16 days to have people beating on my door threatening fines and/or jail if I didn't comply and put in a 'recognized' race and ethnicity.
That was just a headcount. Imagine the asshattery if it was over guns!
Interesting prospect though.
Try to find out if someone is hispanic, then bounce that off the type and # of weapons on the form, then using millions of taxpayer dollars and resources to try and make a determination as to whether the purchase was legitimate, or just some straw buyer working for the cartels.
I believe they call it 'profiling'...
Since I moved back into the "big" house I filled out the census for the trailers address with 0 and then nothing else........since no one lived there. Some one came to check on that. I said since no one lives there everything is N/A.....he wanted to look inside and make sure no one lived there.....I told him to pound sand.
SeriousStudent
07-15-12, 01:22
On the census, under race I put down Human.
And yes, they got pissy about that, too.
Magic_Salad0892
07-15-12, 01:41
On the census, under race I put down Human.
And yes, they got pissy about that, too.
Lmao. That's awesome.
SeriousStudent
07-15-12, 13:20
Yeah, there is just no pleasing some people.
CarlosDJackal
07-15-12, 22:12
Hows this not racial discrimination? Also any FFL's on here confirm this is the new form? Not latino or hispanic but if I was Id be pretty pissed about being singled out, racially, on a form to buy a firearm. Kinda like being asked if you're a jew in 1939...
LOL. It has nothing to do with race but ethnicity. This is nothing new. In most Law Enforcement databases a person is either Latino or Not Latino.
Depending on the race you might belong to, you can be either one.
Hows this not racial discrimination? Also any FFL's on here confirm this is the new form? Not latino or hispanic but if I was Id be pretty pissed about being singled out, racially, on a form to buy a firearm. Kinda like being asked if you're a jew in 1939.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/574cb7a1.jpg
Bought my daughter a 15-22 last week and the form got handed back to me and the clerk pointed out I'd not checked the box. I was confused then read it again and checked not but was confused why checking white or Caucasian wasnt enough.
It's complete bureaucratic bullshit all because of Fast & Furious, IMO. My LGS tossed out a few thousand of the old forms. I wonder what the tree huggers would say about that...
No you can't. Had (what I consider) a FULL Asian put WHITE on a 4473 form once. Had to laugh and ask him WTF????? He advised me that is Mother was Japanese and his Father was white. So he chose to consider himself white.
C4
Grant...did you get any instructions saying you HAD to check off the not being hispanic or latino if your customer puts some other race?? Seems to me if buyer checked off Black, then there is no logical reason to HAVE to also check off NOT being hispanic or latino??
There was only a letter discussing nonimmigrant visa stuff with a notation to see 11.a...no mention of 10.a anywhere I could see??
Grant...did you get any instructions saying you HAD to check off the not being hispanic or latino if your customer puts some other race?? Seems to me if buyer checked off Black, then there is no logical reason to HAVE to also check off NOT being hispanic or latino??
Why not? They are not mutually exclusive. A person can be of the negroid "race" (i.e., black) and also be "hispanic". Only about 5% of the African slaves went to the English colonies of North America (according to my son's history book from school). The rest went to the Caribbean, Central, and South America. The descendants of those shoe went to Central or South America would be an example of a black, hispanic person.
There was only a letter discussing nonimmigrant visa stuff with a notation to see 11.a...no mention of 10.a anywhere I could see??
I found that interesting as well. I wanted to see what sort of instructions they gave.
I have a friend that runs a local business, and he was born in South Africa. So he always checks "African American".
The fact that he looks like a Viking always leads to interesting conversations. The one that was really fascinating was if he was a minority-owned busniess. He just sat and watched with a grin on his face whilst the city employees duked it out. One claimed he was, the other claimed he was not.
Apparently they are still duking that one out.
I have a cop friend of mine who was born in Rhodesia, but mostly grew up in South Africa and here. He does the same thing and checks the African-American box. He got invited to some sort of African-American police organization get together thingy and decided to have fun with it and go. He said it was quite funny when he was the only blonde haired white guy there. When asked what he was doing there he explained he was invited. They tried to tell him that it was a mistake, but he politely explained that in fact he had a more legitimate right to the title than they did since he was actually born in Africa. Some agreed with his reasoning, some didn't. He said it was a rather tense evening overall.
Do not fill out the box, then attempt to gain standing for a civil rights violation when you are denied the transfer by the government.
As long as "Cracka," "Honky," "Paddy," or "Whitey" remains on the form, I'm OK. :rolleyes:
We got Redneck and Hillbilly on our TICS forms here in ET.. and you can check both boxes and move to the front of the line...;) Ron
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-12, 02:56
I have a cop friend of mine who was born in Rhodesia, but mostly grew up in South Africa and here. He does the same thing and checks the African-American box. He got invited to some sort of African-American police organization get together thingy and decided to have fun with it and go. He said it was quite funny when he was the only blonde haired white guy there. When asked what he was doing there he explained he was invited. They tried to tell him that it was a mistake, but he politely explained that in fact he had a more legitimate right to the title than they did since he was actually born in Africa. Some agreed with his reasoning, some didn't. He said it was a rather tense evening overall.
That is AWESOME! I lol'ed thanks for sharing. :cool:
Do not fill out the box, then attempt to gain standing for a civil rights violation when you are denied the transfer by the government.
And have the ACLU present your case.
I have a cop friend of mine who was born in Rhodesia, but mostly grew up in South Africa and here. He does the same thing and checks the African-American box. He got invited to some sort of African-American police organization get together thingy and decided to have fun with it and go. He said it was quite funny when he was the only blonde haired white guy there. When asked what he was doing there he explained he was invited. They tried to tell him that it was a mistake, but he politely explained that in fact he had a more legitimate right to the title than they did since he was actually born in Africa. Some agreed with his reasoning, some didn't. He said it was a rather tense evening overall.
Actually your friend was wrong since "African-American" refers specifically to American born Blacks decended from African slaves that we're brought to the US. Native born Africans are considered African Immigrants and not African-American.
I personally don't self identify with the term "African-American" since consider myself an American that happens to be Black, however I do understand where the term comes from and how it has more to do with giving a group of people a culture or heritage to latch on to since they don't really have one. Most other groups of people in the US have the ability to trace their ancestry back to specific countries, but African Americans don't due to all the mix ups of the slave trade.
You have to remember that Africa is composed of many different countries and each has people with cultural differences even though they share the same skin color. Its no different than Europe or Asia. Call a Chinese man Korean or call an Englishman Irish and they're most likely gonna be pissed. For many the ability to trace their culture back to its roots is important.
Sorry for the thread diversion but I had to respond to that since I see that misinformation about the confusion of African American and African Immigrants all the time.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Since i have a grandfather many times removed that was born in Socorro Mexico, about 1840 or so, can I list Hispanic on the form? My wife always puts down pink with spots. SHe is a freckled redhead with a weird sense of humor.
Actually your friend was wrong since "African-American" refers specifically to American born Blacks decended from African slaves that we're brought to the US. Native born Africans are considered African Immigrants and not African-American.
So what does a black African immigrant list on government forms?
And does this mean that in the case that Obama were to have been born in Kenya or outside the US that he wouldn't be African American? (hypothetically)
--
So what does a black African immigrant list on government forms?
And does this mean that in the case that Obama were to have been born in Kenya or outside the US that he wouldn't be African American? (hypothetically)
--
Many forms list "Black" as an option which is what both African Americans and African Immigrants would elect. Some forms lump people inti the buckets which doesn't leave room for any variations. Sorta like having the option to select only Latino or Hispanic.
By the original definition Obama is not AA regardless to whether he was born in or out of the US since he is not decended from African slaves that were brought to the US during the Slave trade. Unfortunately most Blacks here in the US are lumped all into the same bucket as AA when in reality all do not fit the original definition. They looser definition encompasses all Blacks which are residents or citizens I have the US which are decended from native Sub Saharan Africa.
Starts getting confusing and a bit silly when you start looking for examples lime that. That's but one of the reasons I simply see myself as an American that happens to be Black.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Starts getting confusing and a bit silly when you start looking for examples lime that. That's but one of the reasons I simply see myself as an American that happens to be Black.
Sounds like the best answer to me. Though my heritage is English/Welsh and Norwegian/Swedish, I consider myself a human race member of American heritage, a.k.a., an American.
My kids are even more mixed up since my wife, their mother, is a Japanese Korean... (Korean blood and passport holder born and raised in Japan).
They have ancestors who were Norwegian viking types as well as Korean ancestors. My son has streaks of blond in his black wiry hair. What should he call himself? (American of course)
thanks for the insight
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ffhounddog
07-17-12, 18:50
For Race might as well check them all.
SeriousStudent
07-17-12, 19:11
Wahoo95, I am absolutely not picking a fight with you.
My friend I described was born in Africa, and is now a naturalized American citizen. He is intensely proud of both. He loves his new nation, but misses the old one the way I missed Texas. That is why he describes himself the way he does.
Of course, he also has a very subtle sense of humor. But he honestly seeks to honor both parts of his heritage.
Again, just offering a wee bit of clarification for my posting. If you ever get near Texas, I'd be more than happy to buy you a tasty beverage and chat about firearms. Like the vast majority of folks here, I bet we have a lot in common.
Thanks!
On some forms my kids brought back from school for standardized testing, the same question was posed. I'm not sure it's some black helicopters/racist/anti-gun thing, I think this is just a political correctness thing. Given that race and ethnicity are two very touchy subjects, I think this is a way for government officials to avoid being accused of "insensitivity" to the Hispanic community.
I believe there's an "other" box if you're really not covered under the multitude of options listed already. Why is ethnicity so important to define anyway?
Another thing: checking the "other" box doesn't mean we think less of you, it doesn't mean we don't like you, it doesn't mean we describe you with racial slurs or associate any stereotypes with you. It may mean I've never heard of where you're from, but 99% of people aren't gonna hold it against you. If you can't handle being ribbed about the pronunciation of your native country, bite my hairy Irish ass :D
CarlosDJackal
07-18-12, 09:39
It's complete bureaucratic bullshit all because of Fast & Furious, IMO. My LGS tossed out a few thousand of the old forms. I wonder what the tree huggers would say about that...
Negative. I ran across this while working on a Law Enforcement related project (Database) about 12-years ago. This goes back decades and will probably never be replaced (because of the cost and effort required).
It's just another way to categorize individuals into two categories for Ethnicity.
Negative. I ran across this while working on a Law Enforcement related project (Database) about 12-years ago. This goes back decades and will probably never be replaced (because of the cost and effort required).
It's just another way to categorize individuals into two categories for Ethnicity.
I think you are right, I remember reading this a long time ago:
Can computers cope with human races?
by Les Earnest <les@cs.stanford.edu>
© 1989 by the Association for Computing and Machinery
http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/mongrel.htm
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