View Full Version : Are You Too Stupid...(to conceal carry?)
Per the request of the staff that I post the article I wrote here, not direct people to where it appears on the Interweb...
I wrote this essay the other day and thought I'd pass it along here for discussion. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Let’s face it, aside from owning the right gun and gear, not everyone is equipped to carry a concealed weapon. With the boom in firearm ownership in recent years, there are a lot of new gun owners. And plenty of first-timers seem to have picked up that first gun as an impulse buy, apparently thinking, “Hey, I’m going to buy me a gun and carry it!” Their friends pack heat so how hard can it really be, right? If you’re too stupid to think through some really important questions before you start carrying, you have no business walking around with a concealed weapon. You need to stop to consider that . . .
There are legal, ethical, moral and competency implications whenever you strap on a firearm. Here are just some of the things you need to be aware of:
Legal Implications
If you carry a gun, you need to be prepared to accept the legal consequences, whatever they may be. Are you willing to go through the trouble and expense – both financially and emotionally – of being arrested, charged and tried if you have to use your firearm? If not, leave the heater at home. Can you deal with whatever might come your way when it comes to encounters with law enforcement officials who may or may not understand and respect your state and local carry laws? If not, don’t carry.
Ethical Implications
When you take on the responsibility of being an armed citizen, you also assume a greater level of ethical responsibility for every aspect of your behavior while packing. You don’t pick fights. You don’t respond to aggressive comments or gestures by going for your gat. You never go looking for trouble. You don’t – ever – drink while armed. And you never brandish it or joke around about carrying concealed. Concealed means concealed…in every possible sense. If you can’t conceal it, do not tote it. You aren’t trying to impress anyone by carrying. Your ethical posture hasto be above reproach when carrying.
Moral Implications
Are you mentally prepared to actually shoot and kill somebody? If not, the gun should stay in your safe. If you think you are just going to pull the gun out and wave it around to scare somebody off, don’t carry. If you think you can “shoot to wound,” you have another thing coming.
If the gun comes out of its holster, you must already have decided to kill somebody. Period. There is no middle ground. Can you do that? Have you thought long and hard about what that means? Are you willing to see what a bullet will do to a human body? People don’t always just fall over dead like in the movies. You have to prepare yourself for the emotional trauma of gravely wounding or killing another human being.
Competency Implications
If you are going to carry a concealed weapon, you need to be rigorous about safe, competent gun handling. Your heater is always loaded – or it better be. That means you must never ever, under any circumstance, draw it while carrying unless you’re truly in a life or death situation.
You do not pull it out to show to your buddies. You never cover anyone with the muzzle. Your finger should be indexed. You simply do not “play around” with your concealed firearm. It goes in the holster and never comes out, unless absolutely necessary.
And you need to be fully trained in the use of your firearm. Find a competent instructor and take a class. Better yet, take several classes. Just as if you want to get to Carnegie hall, you need to practice, practice and practice some more. You owe it to yourself to get in as much range time with your carry gun as you possibly can. If you aren’t willing to master all aspects of handling your concealed carry firearm, don’t strap it on.
Are you too stupid to handle all of this? Most likely not. But these are just some of the things you will need to consider before you take on the responsibility of concealed carry. Yes, it’s your right, but you need to exercise that right legally, ethically, morally and competently or you’ll hurt the cause of those that do. Got it?
Per the request of the staff that I post the article I wrote here, not direct people to where it appears on the Interweb...
I wrote this essay the other day and thought I'd pass it along here for discussion. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Let’s face it, aside from owning the right gun and gear, not everyone is equipped to carry a concealed weapon. With the boom in firearm ownership in recent years, there are a lot of new gun owners. And plenty of first-timers seem to have picked up that first gun as an impulse buy, apparently thinking, “Hey, I’m going to buy me a gun and carry it!” Their friends pack heat so how hard can it really be, right? If you’re too stupid to think through some really important questions before you start carrying, you have no business walking around with a concealed weapon. You need to stop to consider that . . .
There are legal, ethical, moral and competency implications whenever you strap on a firearm. Here are just some of the things you need to be aware of:
Legal Implications
If you carry a gun, you need to be prepared to accept the legal consequences, whatever they may be. Are you willing to go through the trouble and expense – both financially and emotionally – of being arrested, charged and tried if you have to use your firearm? If not, leave the heater at home. Can you deal with whatever might come your way when it comes to encounters with law enforcement officials who may or may not understand and respect your state and local carry laws? If not, don’t carry.
Ethical Implications
When you take on the responsibility of being an armed citizen, you also assume a greater level of ethical responsibility for every aspect of your behavior while packing. You don’t pick fights. You don’t respond to aggressive comments or gestures by going for your gat. You never go looking for trouble. You don’t – ever – drink while armed. And you never brandish it or joke around about carrying concealed. Concealed means concealed…in every possible sense. If you can’t conceal it, do not tote it. You aren’t trying to impress anyone by carrying. Your ethical posture hasto be above reproach when carrying.
Moral Implications
Are you mentally prepared to actually shoot and kill somebody? If not, the gun should stay in your safe. If you think you are just going to pull the gun out and wave it around to scare somebody off, don’t carry. If you think you can “shoot to wound,” you have another thing coming.
If the gun comes out of its holster, you must already have decided to kill somebody. Period. There is no middle ground. Can you do that? Have you thought long and hard about what that means? Are you willing to see what a bullet will do to a human body? People don’t always just fall over dead like in the movies. You have to prepare yourself for the emotional trauma of gravely wounding or killing another human being.
Competency Implications
If you are going to carry a concealed weapon, you need to be rigorous about safe, competent gun handling. Your heater is always loaded – or it better be. That means you must never ever, under any circumstance, draw it while carrying unless you’re truly in a life or death situation.
You do not pull it out to show to your buddies. You never cover anyone with the muzzle. Your finger should be indexed. You simply do not “play around” with your concealed firearm. It goes in the holster and never comes out, unless absolutely necessary.
And you need to be fully trained in the use of your firearm. Find a competent instructor and take a class. Better yet, take several classes. Just as if you want to get to Carnegie hall, you need to practice, practice and practice some more. You owe it to yourself to get in as much range time with your carry gun as you possibly can. If you aren’t willing to master all aspects of handling your concealed carry firearm, don’t strap it on.
Are you too stupid to handle all of this? Most likely not. But these are just some of the things you will need to consider before you take on the responsibility of concealed carry. Yes, it’s your right, but you need to exercise that right legally, ethically, morally and competently or you’ll hurt the cause of those that do. Got it?
If the intended audience for your essay consists of people who are in the process of making, or who have recently made, the decision to carry a firearm for protection, then how will you make it likely that they will see your essay?
If the intended audience for your essay consists of people who are in the process of making, or who have recently made, the decision to carry a firearm for protection, then how will you make it likely that they will see your essay?
You could use info to help advise a friend on if buying a gun is the BEST idea. I thought the piece had truths to it, and good read.
You could use info to help advise a friend on if buying a gun is the BEST idea. I thought the piece had truths to it, and good read.
I agree that one friend with more experience helping a friend who is a newcomer to defensive firearms is probably the method most likely to succeed. This allows knowledge transfer, skills transfer, etc to happen in the context of an existing relationship. People are more likely to take advice from someone they know, trust, and respect than from a stranger.
If the intended audience for your essay consists of people who are in the process of making, or who have recently made, the decision to carry a firearm for protection, then how will you make it likely that they will see your essay?
It was first published on a gun blog site, which I shall not name, per staff instruction.
CaptainDooley
07-13-12, 21:03
You don’t – ever – drink while armed.
I disagree with this statement. Depending on location it can be legal to imbibe while carrying. As far as it being an ethical matter (where you listed it), that's really a personal call. If you are completely unable to have a couple of beers or glasses of wine with dinner and stop... well, you have a problem. If, on the other hand, you base a good portion of your life on your self discipline and self control and you know where your limits are with alcohol, I see no reason why you can't have a beer or two with dinner while carrying, and I, in fact, I do so often. It's called being responsible for your own behavior and actions.
In the same vein, I also disagree with states (like Texas where I live) that preclude you from going into a bar with your concealed weapon. I often accompany friends to places that are (by virtue of % of sales) a "bar" and never drink more than one or two and enjoy their company and take them home if needed. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to keep a firearm on me in that situation. My friends and I are by and large too mature to pick fights, drunk or sober - and if they weren't, I wouldn't hang out in bars with them...
ChicagoTex
07-14-12, 00:00
In the same vein, I also disagree with states (like Texas where I live) that preclude you from going into a bar with your concealed weapon. I often accompany friends to places that are (by virtue of % of sales) a "bar" and never drink more than one or two and enjoy their company and take them home if needed. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to keep a firearm on me in that situation. My friends and I are by and large too mature to pick fights, drunk or sober - and if they weren't, I wouldn't hang out in bars with them...
The 51% law bugs me too. 9 Times out of 10 that I go to a bar, I go only because my friends are going and I just have a coke. I believe under those circumstances my right to carry should not be compromised.
While I think I personally can handle the responsibility of carrying and consuming reasonable amounts of alcohol (1-2 beers or other alcohol equivalent) and do so in my own home, I can understand why others would feel that alcohol consumption while carrying in public should be zero tolerance and don't necessarily view that as wholly unreasonable.
KalashniKEV
07-14-12, 08:01
This allows knowledge transfer, skills transfer, etc to happen in the context of an existing relationship. People are more likely to take advice from someone they know, trust, and respect than from a stranger.
Disagree.
Maybe for a first outing/ fam fire, but "skills transfer" best occurs in a professional environment. It's not like your friend is going to completely blow off your advice, but people are actually less likely to take advice from someone they're familiar with. Maybe in the back of their head they're thinking about the time you thought you could "shake out" the waste-toner-cartridge or whatever...
As far as it being an ethical matter (where you listed it), that's really a personal call... I see no reason why you can't have a beer or two with dinner while carrying...
Disagree.
Practicing the discipline means not in-taking substances that impair judgement. Not even a drop. Assuming you do have an iron liver and you just have "a couple beers to relax" and are completely unaffected by it- let's say you do have to use your CCW. Are you going to be blowing your beer breath all over the first responding officer? Or are you going to ask the people around you for chewing gum?
Thanks for the feedback, I've rewritten the article and am posting it.
CaptainDooley
07-14-12, 08:24
You're allowed to disagree - that's why I said it was a personal matter. First let me clarify a few things.
1. I drink beer because I value the artisan craftwork that goes into real beer. I value the taste qualities between different styles of beer. I don't drink cheap swill that America has foisted on the mindless masses.
2. I don't have a beer to relax. I don't drink to get a buzz or to get drunk, ever. I very, very rarely and never outside of my own home have more than 3 beers at a time/in a day and usually just have one or two. I am 270 lbs. and Irish and 3 beers spread out over 3-5 hours in an establishment in no way impairs my judgement.
To answer your question, yes - if I had to use my CCW in the parking lot afterward I would speak to the officer (what little I would speak without an attorney present) without looking for gum from the crowd.
I do not disagree with Straight-Xers/teetotalers rights to do as they please, but I for one feel that we can be (and ought to be) responsible enough and that we ought to know ourselves enough to be able to act in a mature and reasonable manner, practicing self discipline and staying within the limits of what we are able to handle.
On the other hand, if you're the kind of guy (in general, not you personally) who has at different points in your life said the words, "Hold my beer and watch this," then you probably shouldn't be drinking and carrying a weapon, or being near motor vehicles/farm equipment/ladders/power tools, etc...
Again, that's why I said it's a personal call. I have no qualms about the decisions I have made.
As far as it being an ethical matter (where you listed it), that's really a personal call... I see no reason why you can't have a beer or two with dinner while carrying...
Disagree.
Practicing the discipline means not in-taking substances that impair judgement. Not even a drop. Assuming you do have an iron liver and you just have "a couple beers to relax" and are completely unaffected by it- let's say you do have to use your CCW. Are you going to be blowing your beer breath all over the first responding officer? Or are you going to ask the people around you for chewing gum?
HackerF15E
07-14-12, 08:42
I have never understood the "guns and alcohol NEVER mix!" mantra.
Guns and impaired judgment and decisionmaking never should mix, but the mistake is the belief that there is always a direct link between alcohol and impairment in all circumstances.
If we believe that we have enough personal responsibility to have a loaded firearm on our person or in our hands, then we also have enough personal responsibility to know when we are in danger of being impaired and make appropriate choices about our decisions both with the alcohol and the firearm.
We are each completely personally responsible for our actions, regardless.
My .02...
Combining drugs of any type with firearms is assumed risk. The risk can be managed, but it is risk nonetheless.
The presence of that drug variable in an application of force will create extra scrutiny of the drinker, whether they are righteous or not. The presence of alcohol tends to produce a presumption of wrongdoing, rightly or wrongly.
Chewing gum is fine, but it is likely that you will get a PBT, blood draw for BAC, and perhaps even a UA following a UoF.
The presence of any quantity of alcohol creates impairment. How it is defined, and the extent to which it can be measured is subject to definition and debate. Most states will apply their presumptive level of intoxication/impairment for driving (.08, commonly) as their presumptive level for other tasks. However, the presumptive level doesn't preclude the finding of impairment at a lower level.
These issues can be managed or mitigated, but they are so easy to avoid altogether and leave to the other guy.
All this talk about using guns to mix alcohol just confuses me.
Anytime I try doing that, my drink ends up tasting like gun oil and gunpowder.
:)
kymudder08
07-14-12, 12:44
not gonna go into details about the situation i was involved in, but i had a couple drinks and 3 hours later had to draw my weapon. the cops didnt like the fact that i had a couple drinks, even though i wasnt impaired in any way shape or form. needless to say they never pushed anything with charges and i was never even breathalyzed to see if the faint smell of alcohol was on my breath or my shirt... but that was over several months ago and now if i drink (which i basically quit after all this) i never carry a firearm. not that i think anything is wrong with it, bc i agree with captaindooley. but it just removes one factor that could be used against you in court should you ever have to defend yourself and take the life of another. so its more of a CYA kinda thing
My .02...
Combining drugs of any type with firearms is assumed risk. The risk can be managed, but it is risk nonetheless.
The presence of that drug variable in an application of force will create extra scrutiny of the drinker, whether they are righteous or not. The presence of alcohol tends to produce a presumption of wrongdoing, rightly or wrongly.
Chewing gum is fine, but it is likely that you will get a PBT, blood draw for BAC, and perhaps even a UA following a UoF.
The presence of any quantity of alcohol creates impairment. How it is defined, and the extent to which it can be measured is subject to definition and debate. Most states will apply their presumptive level of intoxication/impairment for driving (.08, commonly) as their presumptive level for other tasks. However, the presumptive level doesn't preclude the finding of impairment at a lower level.
These issues can be managed or mitigated, but they are so easy to avoid altogether and leave to the other guy.
Well said. Having A BEER (with say dinner) and then getting into a gun fight with your CCW isn't going to do you any favors, BUT it won't necessarily get you thrown into jail either.
If we remove the CCW aspect and transfer this shooting to a home defense thing, having a drink and then shooting someone that is in your home would have no consequences.
C4
All this talk about using guns to mix alcohol just confuses me.
:)
Not sure why it does. It is no different than having a glass of wine with dinner (in your home) and then shooting some guy that breaks in. Are you going to be found guilty for defending yourself in your home just because you had a drink or two? Nope.
So the same rule should apply to having 1-2 drinks (staying BELOW the state legal level) and carry your gun in a public place is the point that some of the folks are making I think.
C4
On the Back Of my Alabama CCW it states
"This permit is not Valid if the holder is under the influence of intoxicating liquors or drugs"
which is weird last year it had that you could not carry in a Place that sells Alcohol :rolleyes: so now I guess they leave it up to a Officer to have to figure out if your under the influence .Legal Limit or just one glass If you blow a legal number on the test.
you would think it would be Just as proving you are ok to drive .
I think the broad blanket of no alcohol is a good one. What would cause a 5'5 person to blow over will not cause 6'2 man. By setting the standard at zero, you don't have a bunch of people saying "No No its ok I can Handle myself"or "I've only had a couple" (by the way everyone down in county jail thought they were in control of a/any situation). Keeping the same across the board, it sets a standard thats not on a case by case basis. My .02.......For the record I live in a party town, Auburn University, where one can find a good time at any time. I am a drinker and CCW and I've never had a problem not mixing the two.
HackerF15E
07-14-12, 16:40
Not sure why it does. It is no different than having a glass of wine with dinner (in your home) and then shooting some guy that breaks in. Are you going to be found guilty for defending yourself in your home just because you had a drink or two? Nope.
So the same rule should apply to having 1-2 drinks (staying BELOW the state legal level) and carry your gun in a public place is the point that some of the folks are making I think.
C4
I believe Grant's humor detector is inop.
My personal rule is zero alcohol while armed away from home. I completely understand where people who have one drink with dinner while carrying are coming from. I cannot necessarily fault their logic. But as was stated earlier in the thread, if the unfortunate happens and you use your gun to defend yourself it would certainly be in your best interest to have a 0.00 BAC, having not consumed any alcohol.
That is why I choose none, both when being armed and when operating a motor vehicle.
Grant: I respectively disagree with you when you say that it is no different than having a glass of wine, or whatever, and then shooting the guy who breaks into your home. There isn't likely to be nearly as much scrutiny, monday morning quarterbacking, media outrage, or other silliness surrounding a defensive gun use that occurs when a man has broken into your home. People are far more likely to recognize your right to lethal force in defense in that scenario. Many uses of lethal force in public are more difficult to justify. That's just the way it is.
I realize a common response to the alcohol while carrying question is "A good shoot is a good shoot". But remember that whether or not it is a good shoot might be determined by politics or a jury of your "peers". I don't think we want either one of those things to play a significant role, and I believe that having alcohol in your system/being out in public both increase the chances that one or the other of those will come into play.
Really good article. These are things that new ccws need to think of, current ccws can use reminding of, and a good list of stuff for us current ccws to talk about with people thinking of carrying.
For the alcohol stuff, there are responsible citizens, and there are idiots. If you cant act rationally after having a couple beers, you shouldnt drink, period. I always say : smart people can do irresonsible things safely. EtOH + guns = irresponsible, but if the handler understands that much greater caution needs to be taken, and acts accordingly, its acceptable.
I dont act like an idiot when I drink. I dont feel I should have to give up my right to defend myself just because I had a couple beers. I do, however, know that if I used a gun(if it was legal) while "intoxicated" I would be under heavy scrutny, and I understand that alcohol DOES affect the mind, and makes me that much more careful if I'm drinking while guns are around.
That said its not legal in OH, so it doesnt really matter. Also, I trust myself to handle guns while drinking, but I dont trust other people to unless I know them very well. I know 1 person that fits in this catagory so I guess it goes both ways.
zombie killer
07-15-12, 00:55
I enjoyed the article both for clarity and topic matter. I agree with the questions you proposed and hope instructors would pose them as well.
As for drinking and carrying, I agree it's a personal choice. As for me, I would never do it for the simple reason if I ever did pull the trigger, at home or in my community, I would hate to end up in court with even the slightest hint that my judgement was impaired.
Beat Trash
07-15-12, 08:55
Some thoughts...
Nice article for those who are initially considering the concept of CCW.
To go about one's life armed requires some amount of commitment and responsibility. If a person is not willing to be responsible enough then they should reconsider carrying a firearm.
The same could be said about operating a motor vehicle.
As far as CCW and alcohol are concerned, I offer that a similar comparison could be made with alcohol and operating a motor vehicle.
The key is moderation.
The problem is that many people have difficulty with the concept of moderation.
I no longer have more than two drinks while outside of my home. I'm almost always armed when outside my home. Even if I were not carrying a gun, I'd still limit my alcohol consumption when in public for many reasons.
I was young, dumb, and drunk a few times in my youth. Being armed then would have been as bad of an idea as deciding to take the new car for a test drive to see what it can do while shit faced drunk.
NV state law [NRS 202.257], which allows a person to legally possess a firearm (this includes carrying) as long as his/her BAC is below 0.10.
Nevada Revised Statue 202.257
1. It is unlawful for a person who:
(a) Has a concentration of alcohol of 0.10 or more in his or her blood or breath; or
(b) Is under the influence of any controlled substance, or is under the combined influence of intoxicating liquor and a controlled substance, or any person who inhales, ingests, applies or otherwise uses any chemical, poison or organic solvent, or any compound or combination of any of these, to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely exercising actual physical control of a firearm,
... to have in his or her actual physical possession any firearm. This prohibition does not apply to the actual physical possession of a firearm by a person who was within the person’s personal residence and had the firearm in his or her possession solely for self-defense.
2. Any evidentiary test to determine whether a person has violated the provisions of subsection 1 must be administered in the same manner as an evidentiary test that is administered pursuant to NRS 484C.160 to 484C.250, inclusive, except that submission to the evidentiary test is required of any person who is directed by a police officer to submit to the test. If a person to be tested fails to submit to a required test as directed by a police officer, the officer may direct that reasonable force be used to the extent necessary to obtain the samples of blood from the person to be tested, if the officer has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be tested was in violation of this section.
3. Any person who violates the provisions of subsection 1 is guilty of a misdemeanor.
4. A firearm is subject to forfeiture pursuant to NRS 179.1156 to 179.119, inclusive, only if, during the violation of subsection 1, the firearm is brandished, aimed or otherwise handled by the person in a manner which endangered others.
5. As used in this section, the phrase “concentration of alcohol of 0.10 or more in his or her blood or breath” means 0.10 gram or more of alcohol per 100 milliliters of the blood of a person or per 210 liters of his or her breath.
So the same rule should apply to having 1-2 drinks (staying BELOW the state legal level) and carry your gun in a public place is the point that some of the folks are making I think.
C4
If you're an average size adult male you can drink that many an hour and be functionally sober.
alcohol and ccw shouldn't mix. people are going to do what they want to, but when the shtf, a person may be judged by a jury of their peers and alcohol could cloud the issue of a good self defense situation in the minds of others. .02
alcohol and ccw shouldn't mix. people are going to do what they want to, but when the shtf, a person may be judged by a jury of their peers and alcohol could cloud the issue of a good self defense situation in the minds of others. .02
Agree, but it is better to be alive (in Jail) then not carrying and dead. ;)
Let's be honest for a moment and talk about being in a restaurant. The ONLY WAY someone is going to see my gun is if somebody is shooting the place up OR I am being directly threatened. Someone robbing the place is not my concern (as I am not the police). Someone wants to have a knife or gun fight in the place, again not my concern.
So somebody is KILLING people and by me defending myself (with a small amount of alcohol in my body) isn't going to be big concern with most LE that I know.
C4
Really good article. These are things that new ccws need to think of, current ccws can use reminding of, and a good list of stuff for us current ccws to talk about with people thinking of carrying.
For the alcohol stuff, there are responsible citizens, and there are idiots. If you cant act rationally after having a couple beers, you shouldnt drink, period. I always say : smart people can do irresonsible things safely. EtOH + guns = irresponsible, but if the handler understands that much greater caution needs to be taken, and acts accordingly, its acceptable.
I dont act like an idiot when I drink. I dont feel I should have to give up my right to defend myself just because I had a couple beers. I do, however, know that if I used a gun(if it was legal) while "intoxicated" I would be under heavy scrutny, and I understand that alcohol DOES affect the mind, and makes me that much more careful if I'm drinking while guns are around.
That said its not legal in OH, so it doesnt really matter. Also, I trust myself to handle guns while drinking, but I dont trust other people to unless I know them very well. I know 1 person that fits in this catagory so I guess it goes both ways.
Interesting you say that it is illegal in Ohio. Where did you get this from? Can you pull up the law where it states this?
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-12, 13:09
In college whenever I played 'Operation Wolf" video game in the bar, my kill rate went up with every pitcher I drank.....
But seriously, I understand peoples view of zero brew to boom, but I carry a CCW to protect my life, not to limit it. If you are a grown up the issue is you're getting that intoxicated, that often- you don't have a CCW problem, you have a control problem in general.
Great intro article but I think you should make it even more dire. I think that any frank discussion of CCW and its possible repurcussion should leave 99% of people seriously doubting the whole proposition. List the things you should do before you get a gun for self defense- security lighting, better locks, a dog, a plan and practice of emergency protocols with your family, heck even life insurance before you take up such a specific tool as a CCW.
And that is what a CCW is, a tool for a very, very specific set of problems. And like most problems, using the wrong tool is messy and problematic- but the right tool easily and quickly solves the problem. And just how when you have a hammer, all problems can look like nails, just having a CCW doesn't mean you have to drop the hammer on every problem. A CCW ain't duct tape, WD-40 or Bisquick- it's a toilet plunger; use it wrong and the shit will fly.
It is better to be juged by 12 than carried by 6. I personnaly think most people(civilian) have more to worry about from stress and health problems there-from (heartattack, high blood preess, etc.). statistically speaking your more likly to die in the car ride to and from restraunt than crazed lunatic on shooting spree. Traffic accidents and health issues scare the hell out of me more than guns.
It is better to be juged by 12 than carried by 6. I personnaly think most people(civilian) have more to worry about from stress and health problems there-from (heartattack, high blood preess, etc.). statistically speaking your more likly to die in the car ride to and from restraunt than crazed lunatic on shooting spree. Traffic accidents and health issues scare the hell out of me more than guns.
Agree. I think it is the fact that the thought of being a "Victim" at the hands of someone else is not acceptable. If people want to "kill themselves" because they don't watch their weight, eat well or exercise then that is ok with them.
C4
Agree. I think it is the fact that the thought of being a "Victim" at the hands of someone else is not acceptable. If people want to "kill themselves" because they don't watch their weight, eat well or exercise then that is ok with them.
C4
I don't remember if it has a specific term but it is discussed in psychology. Other examples would be having your windshield smashed on purpose by a guy with a sledge being more traumatic then a tree branch falling on it, TV stolen vs falling over and breaking, etc and probably why there are those hell bent on murder then something like accidents.
As for the article it does a nice job touching on key points I think many people don't consider. Whether or not you can drink a few or legal issues becomes moot if every other aspect mentioned is followed (for the most part).
In college whenever I played 'Operation Wolf" video game in the bar, my kill rate went up with every pitcher I drank.....
Well, there you go. The more I drink the more accurate I'm going to be.
Awesome.
BIG GRIN. I'm yanking your chain here.
:blink:
It seems like this has turned into a justification of a potentially bad situation....not. To mention illegal.....drinking while carrying.
Not something I would really want to explain to the cops, not to mention the family of the person I shot....or a jury.
I simply do not put myself into that situation. Period.
I guess you should ask yourself if you like being able to protect your family.....or beer.
It seems like this has turned into a justification of a potentially bad situation....not. To mention illegal.....drinking while carrying.
Laws vary by state and it is not illegal here. Same goes for many other states.
Agree. I think it is the fact that the thought of being a "Victim" at the hands of someone else is not acceptable. If people want to "kill themselves" because they don't watch their weight, eat well or exercise then that is ok with them.
C4
Absolutely, People are territorial. The thought of "if some were to do them harm", their territoty would have to been invaded. So most use a gun to protect precived territory (own person,loveones,etc.). If one were to exercise more and make theirself more a weapon then they wouldn't feel as helpless without a gun. Give a badass a gun, you got a badass with a gun.. Now take a pu$$y with a gun and take away the gun, what do you have???Just my opinion. I'm no badass but I run/pushups/pullups everyday and lift everyother day, for this reason.
Nevermind, I missed the point of the post entirely.
Agree, but it is better to be alive (in Jail) then not carrying and dead. ;)
You say this as if consuming alcohol is an absolute necessity. What happened to the "no alcohol consumption, carrying, and alive" option?
You say this as if consuming alcohol is an absolute necessity. What happened to the "no alcohol consumption, carrying, and alive" option?
It is not a requirement and I don't think anyone said it was.
It's kind of like when you carried your gun into places where it was a class 5 felony because you felt it was unsafe to be without a gun.
Understand that there is no difference in you having a drink in the comfort of your own home and shooting an intruder and being in a restaurant, having a beer and shooting a bad guy that starts shooting the place up.
Most states either allow some alcohol with CCW or don't define it all (grey area if you will). So it isn't illegal in every state.
C
It's kind of like when you carried your gun into places where it was a class 5 felony because you felt it was unsafe to be without a gun.
I like this analogy more. Been there, done that.
It is not a requirement and I don't think anyone said it was.
It's kind of like when you carried your gun into places where it was a class 5 felony because you felt it was unsafe to be without a gun.
Understand that there is no difference in you having a drink in the comfort of your own home and shooting an intruder and being in a restaurant, having a beer and shooting a bad guy that starts shooting the place up.
Most states either allow some alcohol with CCW or don't define it all (grey area if you will). So it isn't illegal in every state.
C
NC won't even allow a restaurant carry that sells alcohol let alone consume it. Bothers me because if I want to watch UFC PPV at a restaurant I can't carry at all and I don't even drink. Almost had a bill passed to allow restaurant carry but senate wouldn't take it to the floor. Very upsetting!
I like this analogy more. Been there, done that.
So now that we are on the same page, you were willing to risk a felony in order to be alive (don't blame you by the way).
Now if we apply this same logic to having a drink (meaning UNDER the state legal limit) with say dinner and there is a shooting (justified one), the odds of you getting in trouble for saving a restaurant full of people from a guy with AK is going to be very slim I think.
Like the class 5 felony risk, we all have to make decisions for our best interests.
C4
NC won't even allow a restaurant carry that sells alcohol let alone consume it. Bothers me because if I want to watch UFC PPV at a restaurant I can't carry at all and I don't even drink. Almost had a bill passed to allow restaurant carry but senate wouldn't take it to the floor. Very upsetting!
Understand. Ohio just passed the law that allows CCW in places that serve alcohol.
With that said, you might have to think about the circumstances in which you would pull a gun out in a restaurant. Would you be alive? Yes. Would you get a low level felony? Maybe.
This is something you will have to decide for yourself (I know what I would do).
C4
For some reason this thread reminds me of a thread that happened a while ago https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104014&highlight=employed+ccw Now what would have happened if the OP would have been slightly under the influence? Even though situation proved him in the clear and was free to leave. I would imagine it might have gone differently, if police thought him to be slightly intoxicated. It could have undermined his credibility.
For some reason this thread reminds me of a thread that happened a while ago https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104014&highlight=employed+ccw Now what would have happened if the OP would have been slightly under the influence? Even though situation proved him in the clear and was free to leave. I would imagine it might have gone differently, if police thought him to be slightly intoxicated. It could have undermined his credibility.
You could be very right. This is why it is important for CCW holders to realize they are not the Police. The gun doesn't give people super powers. So in the example you provided, my firearm wouldn't have been pulled. YMMV.
C4
So now that we are on the same page, you were willing to risk a felony in order to be alive (don't blame you by the way).
Now if we apply this same logic to having a drink (meaning UNDER the state legal limit) with say dinner and there is a shooting (justified one), the odds of you getting in trouble for saving a restaurant full of people from a guy with AK is going to be very slim I think.
Like the class 5 felony risk, we all have to make decisions for our best interests.
C4
You are right, in principle. When I started going to school here in Georgia it was a crime to have a gun in my car in the parking lot. If drinking alcohol in public is as important to you as getting a college degree is to me, then we are on the same page with our decisions. Well, almost. If you are drinking a little in public and within the law, you are within the law, where my gun in the parking lot was not within the law. Each carries a significant risk, though. IMO anyway.
And you are of course correct that if the guy you shoot is going off on the entire restaurant with an AK47, you will likely not have any legal problems. But you seem to be stacking the deck when making these comparisons. The vast majority of private citizen defensive gun uses are not something as "wild" as shooting a guy who enters a restaurant with an AK47.
You are right, in principle. When I started going to school here in Georgia it was a crime to have a gun in my car in the parking lot. If drinking alcohol in public is as important to you as getting a college degree is to me, then we are on the same page with our decisions. Well, almost. If you are drinking a little in public and within the law, you are within the law, where my gun in the parking lot was not within the law. Each carries a significant risk, though. IMO anyway.
And you are of course correct that if the guy you shoot is going off on the entire restaurant with an AK47, you will likely not have any legal problems. But you seem to be stacking the deck when making these comparisons. The vast majority of private citizen defensive gun uses are not something as "wild" as shooting a guy who enters a restaurant with an AK47.
Ya that was over the top (on purpose), but its not like we haven't seen people in restaurants, gyms and schools just start shooting folks. I wish that I making this stuff, but sadly, I am not.
C4
You are right, in principle. When I started going to school here in Georgia it was a crime to have a gun in my car in the parking lot. If drinking alcohol in public is as important to you as getting a college degree is to me, then we are on the same page with our decisions. Well, almost. If you are drinking a little in public and within the law, you are within the law, where my gun in the parking lot was not within the law. Each carries a significant risk, though. IMO anyway.
And you are of course correct that if the guy you shoot is going off on the entire restaurant with an AK47, you will likely not have any legal problems. But you seem to be stacking the deck when making these comparisons. The vast majority of private citizen defensive gun uses are not something as "wild" as shooting a guy who enters a restaurant with an AK47.
I'm not understanding where your going with this...I think AK thing was drastic example.**edit: Grant addressed this
I'm not understanding where your going with this...I think AK thing was drastic example.**edit: Grant addressed this
I wasn't really going anywhere with it. That was it.
If you want more explanation...I try to think of things as risk/reward and odds/stakes. Since Grant brought up having a gun somewhere that was illegal as an analogous situation I followed along and provided an example of my own.
I, personally, to me, don't see how the reward of consuming alcohol in public while armed justifies the risk that you assume for doing so.
I, personally, to me, DO see how the reward for earning a college degree justifies the risk assumed in having a gun in your car for the trip to and from.
Others are certainly free to feel and choose differently.
My intention is not to tell people not to have a drink or two with dinner where legal. Totally their call. I do believe the matter should be given careful consideration, though, and that an informed decision should be made. I don't want people to think there is no extra risk, even though it may be legal.
Suwannee Tim
07-15-12, 20:32
Per the request of the staff that I post the article I wrote here, not direct people to where it appears on the Interweb.......
When I first began packing in '87 I think I kinda sorta knew all the above or at least most of it but Mr. McCain has done an excellent job of presenting the issues in a well written and concise way.
My two cents:
If you don't have a lump in your throat and a sense of accepting a huge responsibility bordering on impending doom the first time you sally forth with your heater then you should't be carrying a heater.
I wasn't really going anywhere with it. That was it.
If you want more explanation...I try to think of things as risk/reward and odds/stakes. Since Grant brought up having a gun somewhere that was illegal as an analogous situation I followed along and provided an example of my own.
I, personally, to me, don't see how the reward of consuming alcohol in public while armed justifies the risk that you assume for doing so.
I, personally, to me, DO see how the reward for earning a college degree justifies the risk assumed in having a gun in your car for the trip to and from.
Others are certainly free to feel and choose differently.
My intention is not to tell people not to have a drink or two with dinner where legal. Totally their call. I do believe the matter should be given careful consideration, though, and that an informed decision should be made. I don't want people to think there is no extra risk, even though it may be legal.
Oh I see, Your aquainting drinking with gun, to going to school with gun; because your under age of 21. If you were to drink period you would go to jail.
Oh I see, Your aquainting drinking with gun, to going to school with gun; because your under age of 21. If you were to drink period you would go to jail.
No. That's not what is going on here at all.
PS: In case you didn't notice, I wasn't the one that brought off-limits locations into the conversation. ;) It might help of you re-read the conversation.
No. That's not what is going on here at all.
PS: In case you didn't notice, I wasn't the one that brought off-limits locations into the conversation. ;) It might help of you re-read the conversation.
Ok gottcha, I was just tryn to figure out where schools came into the equation.
Interesting you say that it is illegal in Ohio. Where did you get this from? Can you pull up the law where it states this?
C4
I was refering to specifically consuming alcohol while carrying a firearm. As far as I understood the law and the articles I read(not a reliable source these days), you cannot consume any alcohol while carrying a gun.
I, personally, to me, don't see how the reward of consuming alcohol in public while armed justifies the risk that you assume for doing so.
because the increased risk, for many of us, is small enough that it will NEVER matter(assuming 1 beer or some bananas foster has been consumed). I dont think you can even quantify the physical or psycological effects realistically.
Of course this is for your average person and not someone who is a raging alcoholic.
Grant: I think you may have missed my post asking who determines what is and is not a good shoot.
I was refering to specifically consuming alcohol while carrying a firearm. As far as I understood the law and the articles I read(not a reliable source these days), you cannot consume any alcohol while carrying a gun.
A quick look turned this up, but it isn't exactly what I was looking for
2923.16 Improperly Handling Firearms in A Motor Vehicle.
(D) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle if, at the time of that transportation or possession, any of the following applies:
(1) The person is under the influence of alcohol, a drug of abuse, or a combination of them.
(2) The person’s whole blood, blood serum or plasma, breath, or urine contains a concentration of alcohol, a listed controlled substance, or a listed metabolite of a controlled substance prohibited for persons operating a vehicle, as specified in division (A) of section 4511.19 of the Revised Code, regardless of whether the person at the time of the transportation or possession as described in this division is the operator of or a passenger in the motor vehicle.
Looks like some more digging to see if they clearly define the phrase "under the influence" is in order.
Grant: I think you may have missed my post asking who determines what is and is not a good shoot.
A quick look turned this up, but it isn't exactly what I was looking for
2923.16 Improperly Handling Firearms in A Motor Vehicle.
(D) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle if, at the time of that transportation or possession, any of the following applies:
(1) The person is under the influence of alcohol, a drug of abuse, or a combination of them.
(2) The person’s whole blood, blood serum or plasma, breath, or urine contains a concentration of alcohol, a listed controlled substance, or a listed metabolite of a controlled substance prohibited for persons operating a vehicle, as specified in division (A) of section 4511.19 of the Revised Code, regardless of whether the person at the time of the transportation or possession as described in this division is the operator of or a passenger in the motor vehicle.
Looks like some more digging to see if they clearly define the phrase "under the influence" is in order.
That sighting being in a motor vehicle of course its gonna differ than a citizen CCW on their persons.
That sighting being in a motor vehicle of course its gonna differ than a citizen CCW on their persons.
Do you go to/from the destination in question via motor vehicle?
*As I said, it wasn't exactly what I was looking for. It does, however, seem relevant enough to take into consideration.
platoonDaddy
07-16-12, 05:15
In the last three days, for sure your article is hitting many forums/blogs.
Did a google on the following and was amazed to see how it is flying through the net.
Let’s face it, aside from owning the right gun and gear, not everyone is equipped to carry a concealed weapon.
Grant: I think you may have missed my post asking who determines what is and is not a good shoot.
A quick look turned this up, but it isn't exactly what I was looking for
2923.16 Improperly Handling Firearms in A Motor Vehicle.
(D) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle if, at the time of that transportation or possession, any of the following applies:
(1) The person is under the influence of alcohol, a drug of abuse, or a combination of them.
(2) The person’s whole blood, blood serum or plasma, breath, or urine contains a concentration of alcohol, a listed controlled substance, or a listed metabolite of a controlled substance prohibited for persons operating a vehicle, as specified in division (A) of section 4511.19 of the Revised Code, regardless of whether the person at the time of the transportation or possession as described in this division is the operator of or a passenger in the motor vehicle.
Looks like some more digging to see if they clearly define the phrase "under the influence" is in order.
Correct. Ohio does not define what this means (or basically how much).
C4
Let’s face it, aside from owning the right gun and gear, not everyone is equipped to carry a concealed weapon.
Agree. If I was king for a day, CCW holders would have to shoot their states LE qualification test. Can't pass it? Don't carry your gun (just like a cop).
The CCW "tests" that are used to figure out ones competency are either lame or poorly defined by the state.
C4
Got a question from a forum member asking me why do I drink and carry a gun. I am assuming that many others are reading this thread and are asking the same question. The answer is that I don't. I am playing devils advocate here to push the discussion into areas that people either haven't thought about or considered.
I have the luxury of a wife that has her CCW. So if I want to drink while we are at dinner, she carries.
C4
Agree. If I was king for a day, CCW holders would have to shoot their states LE qualification test. Can't pass it? Don't carry your gun (just like a cop).
The CCW "tests" that are used to figure out ones competency are either lame or poorly defined by the state.
C4
I would agree whole heartly in this if I wasn't afraid of the slippery slope fallacy.Anything that impeads an American from owning/CCW a gun worries me (esp right now in this poli. climate). I think nation wide open carry is the way!!
I would agree whole heartly in this if I wasn't afraid of the slippery slope fallacy.Anything that impeads an American from owning/CCW a gun worries me (esp right now in this poli. climate). I think nation wide open carry is the way!!
I am fan of "less Govt" for certain and any restrictions put on gun owners is bad IMHO.
Because of my business (brick and mortar gun dealer) that also sees a lot of CCW holders in classes, I get freaked out by their level ineptitude with a firearm. So I would like to have it both ways (if possible). :)
C4
Not that much a fan of testing and qualification for the most part.
Slippery slope is one thing where with just some words on paper it can become prohibitively difficult. If it was around levels of normal law enforcement or little below then that would be fine in terms of difficulty.
The next issue is test taking. Generally you just cram your brain enough to take a test then it immediately starts falling out. Seen people practicing up for the sham that is OH's "qualification" who probably haven't shot since. Unless its frequent testing or some sort of pop testing where they must be prepared all the time or be caught of guard (probably why people suck at pop quizzes vs a test they know is coming) but that I think tends to also lean into overdoing it, possible abuse, etc.
Technically I am not to concerned when I think about it because most of those who don't put the time and effort behind CC often have it sitting in a nightstand, safe, etc. Also there is that tendency of not having to be to effective although people should be able to account for where their lead goes. There isn't any significant statistics I've seen relating to issues of not being good enough causing problems, mostly just anecdotes of a few retards being themselves.
As a disclaimer before the choir jumps down my throat. I am not advocating piss poor performance or mediocrity but the current system that allows people that option doesn't seem to need fixing since its mostly just being rubbed the wrong way more then an actual problem.
On another note. It may not be shooting up a restaurant with an AK-47 but Luby's Cafeteria Massacre is very close. I don't view Grants example as being an over exaggeration just not a common occurrence and it is sad.
KalashniKEV
07-16-12, 10:02
I think it's kind of interesting in the other thread on the same topic that open carry is getting criticized while "beer carry" seems to be doing quite well on this one.
The fact is that as soon as you drink your first beer, glass of wine, or shot you are impairing your body's ability. I'm not going to argue at what point judgement is impaired or what environments traditionally spawn confrontation, but it is a FACT that you are dulling your reflexes, impairing motor ability, reducing the ability to trace moving objects, increasing heartbeat and blood pressure, dilating peripheral blood vessels, and reducing peripheral sight.
It doesn't matter if you're heavy, Irish, Polish, a daily drinker, or whatever. You're fooling yourself.
Part of practicing the discipline means being ready. I do not accept drinking and guns, and always use peer pressure to correct this behavior. As we've all said though, it's a personal opinion...
I think it's kind of interesting in the other thread on the same topic that open carry is getting criticized while "beer carry" seems to be doing quite well on this one.
I am a fan of open carry, but with restrictions. Meaning, some form of retention is needed on the holster. Other than that have at it!
The fact is that as soon as you drink your first beer, glass of wine, or shot you are impairing your body's ability. I'm not going to argue at what point judgement is impaired or what environments traditionally spawn confrontation, but it is a FACT that you are dulling your reflexes, impairing motor ability, reducing the ability to trace moving objects, increasing heartbeat and blood pressure, dilating peripheral blood vessels, and reducing peripheral sight.
It doesn't matter if you're heavy, Irish, Polish, a daily drinker, or whatever. You're fooling yourself.
Part of practicing the discipline means being ready. I do not accept drinking and guns, and always use peer pressure to correct this behavior. As we've all said though, it's a personal opinion...
Interesting. How bout carrying while tired? Is that ok? Is that worse than having 1-2 drinks with a meal?? Check out my post here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=109048&page=2
C4
KalashniKEV
07-16-12, 10:17
Interesting. How bout carrying while tired? Is that ok? Is that worse than having 1-2 drinks with a meal??
Yes, carrying while tired is OK. The body's stress response will overcome light fatigue. It will not erase physiological impairment though.
(Which post? Can the mods combine these threads?)
Yes, carrying while tired is OK. The body's stress response will overcome light fatigue. It will not erase physiological impairment though.
(Which post? Can the mods combine these threads?)
Uhm, ok (sorry, cannot agree). I am of the opinion that you are so inhibited that your SA is border line "aslee mode" for lack of a better term and most likely won't even see the threat coming.
While having a beer, my reflexes might be a hair off, but my SA is about the same IMHO.
The post is the one with the big "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE" movie pic. ;)
C4
If discussion is going to continue, I suggest merging these threads.
CaptainDooley
07-16-12, 10:22
I'm not fooling myself at all. I know the exact limits and bounds of what I can and can't do when it comes to alcohol. I know the various alcohol contents of the drinks I have. If I drink a Belgian Quadruple, I don't drink anything else.
And yes, size does matter. The exact same amount of alcohol in my system presents a much lower BAC than the same amount in my much, much smaller wife.
While we're talking about these things - a single cigarette, a single cup of coffee, a dose of cold medicine, etc. all impair your faculties to one degree or another (raising heart rate, blood pressure, causing drowsiness, causing jitters, etc.). If we start down this path of zero tolerance, we end up either never carrying or not enjoying life.
On a related note, Alcohol has been demonized in American society due to severe knee-jerk reactions to the actions of imbeciles and people who do not practice self control. To apply those standards across the board to all people is just plain silly.
I think it's kind of interesting in the other thread on the same topic that open carry is getting criticized while "beer carry" seems to be doing quite well on this one.
The fact is that as soon as you drink your first beer, glass of wine, or shot you are impairing your body's ability. I'm not going to argue at what point judgement is impaired or what environments traditionally spawn confrontation, but it is a FACT that you are dulling your reflexes, impairing motor ability, reducing the ability to trace moving objects, increasing heartbeat and blood pressure, dilating peripheral blood vessels, and reducing peripheral sight.
It doesn't matter if you're heavy, Irish, Polish, a daily drinker, or whatever. You're fooling yourself.
Part of practicing the discipline means being ready. I do not accept drinking and guns, and always use peer pressure to correct this behavior. As we've all said though, it's a personal opinion...
If guns with alcohol is bad that we sure shouldn't have them together in a government agency because that would be even worse.
I'm not fooling myself at all. I know the exact limits and bounds of what I can and can't do when it comes to alcohol. I know the various alcohol contents of the drinks I have. If I drink a Belgian Quadruple, I don't drink anything else.
And yes, size does matter. The exact same amount of alcohol in my system presents a much lower BAC than the same amount in my much, much smaller wife.
While we're talking about these things - a single cigarette, a single cup of coffee, a dose of cold medicine, etc. all impair your faculties to one degree or another (raising heart rate, blood pressure, causing drowsiness, causing jitters, etc.). If we start down this path of zero tolerance, we end up either never carrying or not enjoying life.
On a related note, Alcohol has been demonized in American society due to severe knee-jerk reactions to the actions of imbeciles and people who do not practice self control. To apply those standards across the board to all people is just plain silly.
Beat me to the punch. So many things out there from lack of sleep, nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, medications, etc that can impair an individual but with a zero tolerance approach then the question pops up of why you want to live anyway especially if you add in everything to increase life span, not waste time, etc.
To look at sleep deprivation. I don't think your adrenalin surge will bring you to the level of performance that you would have well rested + energy surge so you are still not 100%. Of course its still fact that your going around impaired increasing your chances of being in a violent confrontation to begin with not to mention car or other accident.
The best reason I can think of why you shouldn't do any drinking is to just avoid places with alcohol. The decrease in the likelihood of a violent confrontation is probably a lot more significant then a boost in performance during one. Still you have to consider if its worth not living life the way you want but as a general rule I would avoid places with warning signs.
KalashniKEV
07-16-12, 11:30
I'm not fooling myself at all. I know the exact limits and bounds of what I can and can't do when it comes to alcohol.
I would submit that unless you're on the range, training with guns and alcohol, conducting stress shoots, you do NOT know your limits and bounds when it comes to guns and alcohol.
The fact that you state this so matter-of-factly and with such bravado proves my point perfectly- You're fooling yourself.
I am fan of "less Govt" for certain and any restrictions put on gun owners is bad IMHO.
Because of my business (brick and mortar gun dealer) that also sees a lot of CCW holders in classes, I get freaked out by their level ineptitude with a firearm. So I would like to have it both ways (if possible). :)
C4
I can see that, I bet there has even been a couple of times you wished you had worn body armor just to teach a basic pistol course.
I can see that, I bet there has even been a couple of times you wished you had worn body armor just to teach a basic pistol course.
I wear soft body armor all the time (most don't realize it). ;)
C4
Beat Trash
07-16-12, 12:35
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse to death. But in Ohio, you can not drink alcohol while carrying under a permit. Period.
Ohio Revised Code 2923.121 Possession of firearm in beer liquor permit premises - prohibition, exceptions.
(e) Any person who is carrying a valid license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued to the person by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code , as long as the person is not consuming beer or intoxicating liquor or under the influence of alcohol or a drug of abuse.
If in fact you are having one beer or wine with dinner and someone comes in shooting the place up and you feel the need to act, well, that is a decision you will have to make. You will have to answer as to who you came to be armed in the first place while drinking. The decision as to whether you will be prosecuted will lay with the Prosecutors office.
This is a decision we must all make as mature adults. I know what I would do, even as a LEO with over 20 yrs experience. I would be risking my job and livelihood as well. As I said, I know what I would do. But what I don't feel comfortable doing is advising anyone on an open internet forum to knowingly commit a criminal violation.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse to death. But in Ohio, you can not drink alcohol while carrying under a permit. Period.
Ohio Revised Code 2923.121 Possession of firearm in beer liquor permit premises - prohibition, exceptions.
(e) Any person who is carrying a valid license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued to the person by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code , as long as the person is not consuming beer or intoxicating liquor or under the influence of alcohol or a drug of abuse.
If in fact you are having one beer or wine with dinner and someone comes in shooting the place up and you feel the need to act, well, that is a decision you will have to make. You will have to answer as to who you came to be armed in the first place while drinking. The decision as to whether you will be prosecuted will lay with the Prosecutors office.
This is a decision we must all make as mature adults. I know what I would do, even as a LEO with over 20 yrs experience. I would be risking my job and livelihood as well. As I said, I know what I would do. But what I don't feel comfortable doing is advising anyone on an open internet forum to knowingly commit a criminal violation.
Right. I know what I would do as well, but we all have to make those decisions for ourselves.
C4
You say this as if consuming alcohol is an absolute necessity. What happened to the "no alcohol consumption, carrying, and alive" option?
The American male's social life?
this is one of those threads that the antis would love to print and show their cause....
see these cretins want to carry weapons and drink, then hit your streets where your children play.......
Sorry I see no reason to drink and carry..........and before you call me "Mary"...I'm former airborne and LE so I'm not some liberal puke.
My former hometown had CHL's that were invalid if "ANY" alcohol was present.
You may be fine criminally but I always tell folks the civil case WILL be worse!! Ask OJ or Robert Blake!
KalashniKEV
07-16-12, 15:01
this is one of those threads that the antis would love to print and show their cause....
Who cares what "the antis" think?
This thread has sparked a lot of interesting discussion. I can even say I'm a little bit shocked. For me, personally, consuming alcohol while carrying a firearm is a BIG NO GO. I won't do it, I won't associate with fellow gun owners who do.
For those who say it's no big deal? OK, check your local laws and carry on.
I do take issue with those who would violate the law just because, "the need to stay armed at all times plus the need to down some suds with the boys and watch a sportsgame supersedes the laws of land."
charmcitycop
07-16-12, 15:28
........
charmcitycop
07-16-12, 15:42
.......
platoonDaddy
07-16-12, 18:36
If I was king for a day
When I become 'King' any law written by a lawyer will be Null & Void! Only laws written by the "common folk" will be recognized.
HackerF15E
07-16-12, 18:40
I think it's kind of interesting in the other thread on the same topic that open carry is getting criticized while "beer carry" seems to be doing quite well on this one.
The fact is that as soon as you drink your first beer, glass of wine, or shot you are impairing your body's ability. I'm not going to argue at what point judgement is impaired or what environments traditionally spawn confrontation, but it is a FACT that you are dulling your reflexes, impairing motor ability, reducing the ability to trace moving objects, increasing heartbeat and blood pressure, dilating peripheral blood vessels, and reducing peripheral sight.
It doesn't matter if you're heavy, Irish, Polish, a daily drinker, or whatever. You're fooling yourself.
Part of practicing the discipline means being ready. I do not accept drinking and guns, and always use peer pressure to correct this behavior. As we've all said though, it's a personal opinion...
So, where's the outrage against carrying while fatigued or tired? How about when extremely angry or sad?
These are all events that impair judgment, too, at a similar level to alcohol consumption.
KalashniKEV
07-16-12, 19:05
I would bet that my judgement was more impaired after working a 3-11/11-7 double shift in patrol than after 3-4 Stella Artois.
At least you are conscious of your impairment and do not deny it. Do you choose to carry in an impaired state?
I'm no stranger to extreme fatigue due to work, and choose not to drive when I'm in such a state... or carry a firearm.
So, where's the outrage against carrying while fatigued or tired? How about when extremely angry or sad?
There's no outrage, friend.
Happy or sad aren't things we control though- poor decision making and negligent behavior is.
I see the argument you guys are trying to make- for example I'd rather be bright eyed and bushy tailed with a couple of beers in me on the Battlefield than after a night of servicing targets and bouncing from one OBJ to the next acting on time sensitive intel. No doubt.
The *best* thing though would be to not place yourself in an situation of impairment (partial or not) when carrying a firearm.
In VA you can carry in a place that serves alcohol. I can't think of any places (besides fast food joints) that don't serve alcohol. When I go out to dinner with the wife and kid, I'm carrying but I do not drink for 2 reasons.
1. I think it's a misdemeanor to consume alcohol while CCW (I have to double check on this).
2. I'm driving to and from dinner.
The fact that I'm driving a vehicle with my wife and 2 year old is enough reason for me not to drink while carrying even if it was legal for me to do so.
What adult lives a life where they spend all day everyday at 100% physical and psychological readiness?
You need to have the resilience and training reps necessary to continue doing what you need to do - and if you've got the skill set and legal ability to carry, that includes carrying. It's your obligation to yourself and your family to stay safe the - same as wearing your seatbelt or putting on your kevlar. The Military puts a lot of sleep deprived people in a lot of inherently unsafe situations (in theory there's a floor/minimum sleep) and nobody really thinks twice about it.
By the way, I'm not advocating getting drunk (above legal limit) and carrying or drinking and carrying where it is illegal. But the idea that you should ditch your gun whenever you've had one beer or you think you might need a nap in an hour is ridiculous.
Six Feet Under
07-16-12, 22:15
F.S. 790.06 (12) prohibits a CWP holder from carrying a weapon or firearm in a place (or area of a place) where the primary purpose of the establishment is the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises. I can't go in a straight up bar and carry my gun, but I can go in Applebees and as long as I don't sit at the bar or in the bar area, I can carry there.
790.151 Using firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, chemical substances, or controlled substances; penalties.—
(1) As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to “use a firearm” means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge.
(2) For the purposes of this section, “readily accessible for immediate discharge” means loaded and in a person’s hand.
(3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.
(4) Any person who violates subsection (3) commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one’s property.
It's not illegal to drink and carry, but if you get slobbering drunk and shoot somebody, that's just bad decision making in my opinion. I have had in the past, and will continue to have in the future, a drink or two while carrying, but two is the limit. If I plan on getting drunk, the gun stays at home or in a friend's glovebox in their vehicle. That's how I do things, and I don't really care if somebody else has a problem with it. :)
You say this as if consuming alcohol is an absolute necessity. What happened to the "no alcohol consumption, carrying, and alive" option?
The American male's social life?
Uh...pardon?
Would you mind explaining how "the american male's social life" makes consuming alcohol, in public, while armed, an absolute necessity?
.
Uh...pardon?
Would you mind explaining how "the american male's social life" makes consuming alcohol, in public, while armed, an absolute necessity?
.
You said what happened to the carry and no drinking option? How about what happened to the "I ought to carry, so I will carry, and I happen to be getting a drink option"? I'm in my 20s, I'm Army, my friends are Army, and in the fall I'm in a sports bar two or three times a week.
I've been legally carrying at bars for 3 years and nobody's seen my weapon yet or gotten shot yet. I've also yet to be drunk with my firearm on my person. If you can be armed, you ought to be armed. And clearly, it is not a disastrous decision.
CaptainDooley
07-16-12, 23:11
Well you and I disagree on what I need to do to know how my body reacts to alcohol under stress or otherwise, and since only one of us actually has that information, I'd say only one of us is qualified to make the judgement. I know my past, I know how my body reacts to various amounts of many, many substances. I know that caffeine, alcohol, and cold medicine and/or ibuprofen are the only thing you'll find in my system unless a doctor in the future prescribes otherwise. I know extensively what all three substances do, because it behooves oneself to know what the things you put in your body do. I do not speak with bravado and thus "fool myself". I speak with decades of knowledge to draw upon. I did not make this decision lightly or flippantly because "I'm a man and can handle it." I made the decision on what I believe and am willing to do based on seeking the truth about myself and learning self control.
I would submit that unless you're on the range, training with guns and alcohol, conducting stress shoots, you do NOT know your limits and bounds when it comes to guns and alcohol.
The fact that you state this so matter-of-factly and with such bravado proves my point perfectly- You're fooling yourself.
You said what happened to the carry and no drinking option?
Yes. I did. I said that because the poster I was quoting gave an either/or that did not include that completely viable option.
How about what happened to the "I ought to carry, so I will carry, and I happen to be getting a drink option"?
Perhaps you should go back and read the conversation again. Carrying and drinking was already one of the options given.
But I would change your wording from "I happen to be getting a drink" to "I chose to drink"
But I would change your wording from "I happen to be getting a drink" to "I chose to drink"
....Because I've been a naughty boy and I need to use language that emphasizes I'm responsible for my actions principal?
G34, in post #78 you could reasonably be mistaken as asserting that it's a requirement for the American male to drink, since you chose to quote the whole thing instead of pare it down to the 2nd sentence alone. We all know assclowns who are dumb enough to think that booze consumption is a litmus test for masculinity :rolleyes:..., so, yeah, you might want to drop the petulant attitude and give some thought to choosing your words more carefully.
Warp, you would do well to stop with the condescension and the "happy/glad" corrections. By your posting history, most of the nuances you go for when you do that are pointless, pseudo-intellectual BS. By the evidence, I have to conclude that you're either doing it deliberately to get a rise out of the one you're "correcting" and therefore rate an infraction for baiting every time you do it from here on out -OR- you have no idea that it makes you appear a holier-than-thou tool every time you do it.
If you guys can't stop sniping at each other, you can both bow out of the discussion entirely.
Choose....
I think what it boils down to is this: There are a large number of things in our lives that impair our judgement. If you dont want to consume ANY alcohol while carrying, thats fine. However, to suggest the EVERYONE who consumes ANY alcohol, while carrying - as long as its legal - is being grossly irresponsible, is just false. I have guns around me at all times in my house, even if I have a couple beers. I even clean them while having a beer sometimes, but I realize that alcohol CAN affect me so I'm that much more careful. As long as you understand that you may be impaired and act accordingly - with increased awareness and caution, there is no foul.
I would bet that my judgement was more impaired after working a 3-11/11-7 double shift in patrol than after 3-4 Stella Artois.
Then I certainly hope you're mature enough to recognize that fact and stow your gun away after you work a double, right?
I my state I can lose my CPL(Conceled Pistol License) if I am found to have AOD (Alcohol & Other Drugs) in my system while carrying. So check your state laws. Think about this, If you are a cop and are involved in a on the job shooting will you be required to give a blood sample? I think because we decide to carry a conceled weapon we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. Just my thouhgts. Don't want to add to the peeing contest.
this is one of those threads that the antis would love to print and show their cause....
A person who lacks understanding or comprehension of the basic necessity of self preservation and responsibility to take care of defending themselves is demonstrably mentally incompetent.
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