View Full Version : BCM vs. DD hammer forged barrel offerings?
Texpatriate
07-13-12, 22:25
Does anybody who's in the know find any real difference in quality between the BCM and Daniel Defense hammer forged barrel offerings? I'm looking to get a lightweight mid-length of one or the other and the DD is about $50 less right now through Brownells. I'm happy to pay a little more for better quality and I'm partial to BCM, but if they're pretty much the same thing... Thanks.
mkmckinley
07-13-12, 22:36
I have both and there doesn't seem to be a difference in quality.
Texpatriate
07-13-12, 22:41
Do you feel that you get discernibly better accuracy out of one over the other? This is going on a recce project that I'm putting together btw.
mkmckinley
07-14-12, 14:50
I haven't noticed an accuracy difference between any of my lightweight CHF barrels but I don't shoot them at distance. The conventional wisdom states that a heavier barrel should be more consistent but I haven't tested it myself. If I remember correctly a memeber with the screen name molon did a few posts with full blown statistical analyses of different profiles. DD's S2W profile is interesting and would be fun to try on a precision build.
polymorpheous
07-14-12, 15:23
I would opt for BCM personally.
OP, PM me if want my reasoning behind this.
My DD LW CHF units haven't been tack drivers, but I did pay about that much less for mine too, and availability was a factor. I wouldn't fault anybody for going BFH, but if you're running a lightweight contour and not running match ammo through it, $50 towards a training fund isn't bad. If you're doing either of those, the BFH probably makes more sense.
I have one of each, both 16" LW midlengths, and am pleased with both. If pinned down I think the DD barrel is slightly better but that's irrelevant with a sample of one each. The DD extractor wasn't as good as BCM's so I upgraded it with the BCM kit. Again that comes down to a sample of one. If buying another I'd feel good going with either.
I doubt there's a difference in quality between these two companies. Both offer high quality products.
Both are solid companies. I usually run BCM rifles with DD rails, So maybe im little more partial to bcm. But I have heard good things about the DD barrels, and believe you would be happy either way. Think it comes down to preference at this point.
GUNSLINGER733
07-14-12, 19:45
My bcm barrel is sweet. It's a tack driver for sure and it's suppose to last a looooong time:)
BCM sources out their barrels don't they? And there aren't many companies actually making the hammer forged barrels so isn't it possible that DD makes BCM's barrels? I'd buy whatever is in stock or which ever is cheapest if they both are available.
DD does not make BCM's barrels.
BCM sources out their barrels don't they? And there aren't many companies actually making the hammer forged barrels so isn't it possible that DD makes BCM's barrels? I'd buy whatever is in stock or which ever is cheapest if they both are available.
DD does not make BCM's barrels.
well that ends that debate :D
BCM sources out their barrels don't they? And there aren't many companies actually making the hammer forged barrels so isn't it possible that DD makes BCM's barrels? I'd buy whatever is in stock or which ever is cheapest if they both are available.
No. BCM's HF barrels are made by one of the best barrel makers on the planet IMHO.
C4
No. BCM's HF barrels are made by one of the best barrel makers on the planet IMHO.
C4
I think best barrels in the world I think Canada and Belgium and the two companies making HF barrels for M4's. I'm going to guess a certain Belgian company makes them in their US plant. I know you can't tell me I'm just talking to myself.
GUNSLINGER733
07-14-12, 22:51
Bcm barrels are krieger barrels if I'm not mistaken
Let's stop with the barrel speculation. To the OP. I doubt you will be able to discern the difference.
To the OP, I wouldn't select either barrel for a recce type rifle. If you are using magnified optics and shooting for groups, chrome lined thin profiled barrels aren't what you're looking for.
To the OP, I wouldn't select either barrel for a recce type rifle. If you are using magnified optics and shooting for groups, chrome lined thin profiled barrels aren't what you're looking for.
Exactly this - for magnified optic precision use, LW CHF isn't what you want, and while offerings like the BFH, Centurion's LW, and DD are impressive for what they are, that's not what they're best at.
jonconsiglio
07-15-12, 15:38
And people wonder how misinformation gets spread. Unless 100% certain, it's probably a bad idea to say, "I think company ABC makes barrels for company XYZ." Not jumping on anyone, but this is how bad info spreads.
BCM makes it no secret where they source their barrels. Also keep in mind, they offer standard, BFH (cold hammer forged) and stainless. So, they may source from two companies.
As for the difference, I doubt there would be any noticeable difference. The only thing on a mid length is that it's possible DD uses slightly larger gas ports than BCM. Since there's no spec for mid lengths, we see different port sizes from companies that build everything else to spec. BCM is known for smaller gas ports in their 14.5" mid lengths that work well with an H buffer while Noveske and others are known for using slightly larger ports that work well with an H2 in their 14.5" mid lengths.
I can't imagine anyone could tell a difference between DD and BCM chf barrels. I choose DD for their RIS II and BCM for the rest of the rifle, though Centurion is right at the top for my next rifle for both the hand guard and the rest of the rifle.
Now, if you were to ask about Daniel Defense chf barrels vs Centurion Arms mid weight profile or Noveske's N4 chf which is also a mid weight profile (between govt/standard profile and light weight), then I'd say yes, it is possible you'd see a difference, but not guaranteed. But, that's because they're doing things differently for increased life and rigidity, which leads to slightly better accuracy, at least in my experience.
I still hold Colt and BCM at the very top for duty/defensive rifles. Buy whichever one is available and enjoy it.
Texpatriate
07-15-12, 21:32
To the OP, I wouldn't select either barrel for a recce type rifle. If you are using magnified optics and shooting for groups, chrome lined thin profiled barrels aren't what you're looking for.
I see your reasoning and I would definitely agree, but what I'm thinking for this rifle is something like a 3-gun rifle- low power optics (TR24G to be exact) and fast handling. Definitely not something primarily for shooting "for groups" like a bench rest rifle/SPR build. My hope was that the lightweight bbl would counter the weight of the longer rail (12" Larue) and move the balance back a bit more. I don't know, do you still think I'm off on my thinking? Summer is a slow time of year for work for me so I'm looking for a project to tinker with. Its either this or jigsaw puzzles :-) I'm deffinitely open to a standard weight barrel if my thinking is way off.
I like matching stainless barrels with any type of magnified optic. If you are willing to give up a tick of accuracy, try some of the lightweight stainless options. Either the Noveske NST or some of the JP Enterprise ones.
IIRC, the actual recce rifles were 16" Lija stainless barrels.
I've done the light rifle thing. In the end, I'd rather have something slightly heavier capable of sub minute 10 round groups. The weight kind of mitigates recoil too.
Texpatriate
07-18-12, 13:10
Alright, I've decided to go a different direction and build this arround a noveske afghan 14.5".
I got one sitting in front of me now...I don't think you be upset at all.
promiseofwar
04-11-14, 19:29
I own DD and BCM and find no difference, however I don't ever choose a LW barrel.
I have owned a number of selections from BCM and DD.
All have had proper chambers, been gassed properly, and appeared well machined.
My DD barrels have been quite a bit more accurate. They are my personal choice.
ColtSeavers
04-11-14, 21:57
Last post before today; 07-18-12 @12:30.
Necro?
ETA: I would trust either manufacturer's offerings.
Redbeardsong
04-11-14, 22:37
Necro for real!
To my knowledge, Daniel Defense is the only only company in the U.S. who hammer forges the chamber as well as the bore. The result is a perfect bore/chamber alignment and smooth chamber walls free of tool marks (helps with extraction). But I could be wrong. Anyone have other info?
You can't, and won't go wrong with a barrel from any reputable company. DD, BCM, Noveske, etc. And if something does go wrong, being reputable companies, they most certainly have excellent customer service.
Necro for real!
To my knowledge, Daniel Defense is the only only company in the U.S. who hammer forges the chamber as well as the bore. The result is a perfect bore/chamber alignment and smooth chamber walls free of tool marks (helps with extraction). But I could be wrong. Anyone have other info?
I believe FN USA Mfg and LWRCI do both the barrel and chamber . http://forum.lwrci.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15047
http://www.surplusammo.com/fn-mfg-ar-15-chf-16-m4-5-56-carbine-barrel-chrome-lined-1-7/
Its Chevy v. Ford, it all comes to personal preference. The cheapest price barrel is the one I'd go for in order to purchase optics, accessories, ammo, etc.
Obscenejesster
04-13-14, 00:25
I have and had have barrels in both flavors. Both can last a lifetime but the most accurate CHF barrels I own are a 16in BCM Govt. and a 16in Centurion. Maybe it's all in my head but I can't break 1.5 MOA with my DD but can come close to MOA with the BCM and Centurion. Either way you look at it, their all battle accurate so MOE accuracy really makes no difference. If you want precision then you obviously go with something in Stainless.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
I have several daniel defense products, but no bcm. I'm sure that statistically they are similar, but I prefer dd because they produce more in house, and do a great job of it, vs. outsourcing. Yes, bcm qa and qc is good I'm sure, I just find the personal touches on dd rifles very nice in addition to the in house production being more prevalent.
Eurodriver
04-13-14, 06:38
I own DD and BCM and find no difference, however I don't ever choose a LW barrel.
Funny, I'm the exact opposite. I had a BFH and it didn't do anything for me but make it heavier.
Cant go wrong with either, since both are quality. I would just get the one that is the best price.
I am currently working on a BCM build. Per Eurodriver's post, it seems as though he is suggesting that a hammer forged barrel is heavier than a standard button rifled barrel of the same length. Is this the case? Assuming all other factors are equal, is there a weight difference between hammer forged and standard button rifled barrels? (ive searched all over and have yet to find any definitive answer to the aforementioned question). thanks!
Eurodriver
04-13-14, 14:37
I am currently working on a BCM build. Per Eurodriver's post, it seems as though he is suggesting that a hammer forged barrel is heavier than a standard button rifled barrel of the same length. Is this the case? Assuming all other factors are equal, is there a weight difference between hammer forged and standard button rifled barrels? (ive searched all over and have yet to find any definitive answer to the aforementioned question). thanks!
Joey, I hope that didn't come across like that. There is virtually no difference in weight between BFH and Standard. I'm strictly speaking LW vs. All others. Per this source (USMC03 is a moderator here) there is a 0.6oz weight increase with a BFH over standard all else being equal on a 16" barrel. In other words, there is no real weight difference.
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons
Maybe I'm old school , but LW profile barrels are standard profile barrels before the gas port, its only after the gas port that weight changes. Also, Pat Rogers has a Standard BCM Carbine with something ridiculous like 30,000 rounds through its barrel. I'm sure CHF/BFH provide benefits, but I wasn't able to take advantage of them.
@eurodriver: Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. I see now that you were speaking about the contour of various barrels and not the manufacturing processes etc. Thanks for the info regarding the .6 ounce increase in weight regarding the cold hammer forged barrels. I had no idea there was even the slightest weight increase. .6 ounces isn't much, but its something. carry on! :)
Joey, I hope that didn't come across like that. There is virtually no difference in weight between BFH and Standard. I'm strictly speaking LW vs. All others. Per this source (USMC03 is a moderator here) there is a 0.6oz weight increase with a BFH over standard all else being equal on a 16" barrel. In other words, there is no real weight difference.
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons
Maybe I'm old school , but LW profile barrels are standard profile barrels before the gas port, its only after the gas port that weight changes. Also, Pat Rogers has a Standard BCM Carbine with something ridiculous like 30,000 rounds through its barrel. I'm sure CHF/BFH provide benefits, but I wasn't able to take advantage of them.
I've owned both flavors and can readily take advantage of CHF barrel characteristics. They are MUCH faster/easier to clean if you are OCD, and if you're not, they don't really copper foul and a boresnake handles 99% of it. I still remember dumping a couple hundred rounds through my first CHF barrel and then being amazed as the foaming bore cleaner dripped out clean after sitting for 15 minutes.
Both are solid. My BCM BFH came dimpled, my DD did not. My BCM BFH seems rougher finish wise than my DD by a tad. Both are solid. Will I get DD over BCM for future purchases... yes. 30$ cheaper for hammer forged from DD than BCM. Would I purchase a BCM again, sure, if DD barrels are out of stock like this last time.
Shouldn't ever have an issue with either barrel in the end.
Biggest difference I've seen between mine is that the BCM has polished feed ramps.
Biggest difference I've seen between mine is that the BCM has polished feed ramps.
Daniel defense feed ramps are hand polished. One at a time.
I own DD and BCM and find no difference, however I don't ever choose a LW barrel.
Two year old dead post resurrection?
The end answer is that not all hammer forging machines are the same, neither are the chambers are gas ports.
Two year old dead post resurrection?
The end answer is that not all hammer forging machines are the same, neither are the chambers are gas ports.
can you elaborate on this as a comparison?
Not sure what you are saying here. Are you implying a CHF barrel is easier to clean?
I've owned both flavors and can readily take advantage of CHF barrel characteristics. They are MUCH faster/easier to clean if you are OCD, and if you're not, they don't really copper foul and a boresnake handles 99% of it. I still remember dumping a couple hundred rounds through my first CHF barrel and then being amazed as the foaming bore cleaner dripped out clean after sitting for 15 minutes.
Quite simple. There are companies that make hammer forged barrels and put the specified port size in the barrel. There are other companies that have the finished barrel and they port it in house to ensure consistency. They also hand polish the feedramps and polish the chamber.
can you elaborate on this as a comparison?
Not sure what you are saying here. Are you implying a CHF barrel is easier to clean?
This is my experience. Yes. They foul less, too.
Quite simple. There are companies that make hammer forged barrels and put the specified port size in the barrel. There are other companies that have the finished barrel and they port it in house to ensure consistency. They also hand polish the feedramps and polish the chamber.
Daniel defense does it all 100% in house. I mainly am curious what differs about hammer forging machines as Stick implies various levels of quality it seemed based on macbine.
Interesting. I have never heard that before and I also own several AR's with CHF barrels. Not even sure how that would be possible.
This is my experience. Yes. They foul less, too.
DreadPirateMoyer
04-14-14, 00:30
Interesting. I have never heard that before and I also own several AR's with CHF barrels. Not even sure how that would be possible.
Especially considering how they are still chrome lined at the end of the day, and that's what is making contact with the bullet/powder/jacketing, not the hammer forged steel itself. I'm not seeing how it would be possible, and haven't seen a difference in my BFH and non-BFH barrels.
Interesting. I have never heard that before and I also own several AR's with CHF barrels. Not even sure how that would be possible.
They are much smoother. Buttons create chatter. Some more some less. Chf has no chatter. This chatter is what the copper collects in along with other fouling. I figured it for bs myself until I notice the difference in cleaning various barrels of copper with a color reactive solvent.
Barrels with a smoother surface finish in the bore tend to foul less. You can chrome over chatter marks but the marks are still there
Barrels with a smoother surface finish in the bore tend to foul less. You can chrome over chatter marks but the marks are still there
Exactly. Compare carrier gas chambers for an example of this. Shitty ones are rough regardless of hard chroming.
Coal Dragger
04-14-14, 02:36
I can't speak to the quality of BCM barrels since I've never shot one, or even inspected one; however, I can speak the the quality of at least one DD barrel.
Last year I did a re-barrel project on an upper that needed a new barrel and I purchased a Daniel Defense 18" S2W for my project. I selected this barrel for a budget accuracy build to see what I could put together for a reasonable price, with the goal of mostly just having a fun AR to play with and shoot some prairie dogs on occasion. I think it was a good choice, and the following are my observations for anyone who cares.
For anyone that doesn't already know this particular barrel is not chrome lined, but is instead melonite (spelling?) finished inside and out. The barrel extension was also treated to the same finish although the feed ramps were polished to a near mirror finish, which is a nice touch. If lots of high round count rapid fire drills are your goal with a barrel you might be better served with a hard chrome lined barrel and chamber, or maybe not; I'm not a metallurgist so I can't tell you which finish process will result in superior surface characteristics for different applications. I can tell you that the bore and chamber were flawless as delivered with no obvious machine marks or any other defects I could discern with the naked eye, furthermore fired cases show no signs of a rough chamber or any other undesirable finish quality. This barrel collects very little copper or other fouling with any ammo I have run through it other than filthy ass Wolf which gives a lot of carbon. My latest efforts have been reloads, and I've been running CFE 223 for powder and that stuff works great, both accuracy wise for me and for eliminating copper fouling.
I will also note that the gas port on this barrel is in the mid-length location, but was noticeably smaller than the gas port on the junker CMMG 16" that I pulled off. I did not measure the diameter, so sorry about that. The affect of the smaller gas port is a rifle that runs great with a standard H buffer, and that piles up brass in a nice consistent pile about 4.5-5 feet strait to the right and slightly forward, both with the old gas block and a Syrac Ordnance adjustable when using ammo that is full pressure. When I put the adjustable block on, light loads like Wolf 55gr started to short stroke and I was losing gas from the roll pin area since I didn't get the pin seated well. I have since corrected that, but don't have any strong desire to shoot anymore Wolf 55gr to re-test. All other ammo has worked flawlessly. Honestly the standard non adjustable low profile block was probably a better bet, and I may reinstall it since the smaller port seems perfect with the less finicky adjustable block which I bought to reduce over gassing the rifle... which the smaller port handily solves.
As for accuracy, I have been stunned at how good this barrel is. I realize that every barrel is a law unto itself, but mine has been way more accurate than a $250-$300 barrel with a NATO spec chamber has any right to be. With 77gr Matchkings I can routinely get 5 shot groups of .5-.75 MOA which I thought was a fluke, but both Black Hills factory 77gr loads, and my reloads have duplicated those results on more than one session.
If other DD barrels are this good I don't see any reason to buy any other brand of barrel for any other future builds, short of a Satern, Kreiger, or Rock if were to build a national match rifle (which I'm not skilled enough to do anyway..).
Daniel defense feed ramps are hand polished. One at a time.
They maybe now but the one I have isn't.
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