View Full Version : Knight's Armament SR-15 E3 Legacy 16" & SR-15 E3 CQB SBR 11.5" malfunction suppressed
Purpose of this post is to ask for malfunction diagnosis confirmation and advice on how to setup these guns to run.
My particular gun consists of a complete Knight's Armament Company SR-15 E3 CQB SBR upper (with carbine action spring and H2 buffer) on a lower I built out from a S&W stripped lower. The specs are 11.5" URX 2 upper with the E3 bolt and barrel. My gun serves as a training platform and HD rifle... My plan is to always run it suppressed, using my newly acquired SDN-6.
My buddies gun is a complete factory KAC SR-15 E3 legacy carbine (16") that is bone stock as far as operating / internals are concerned. My buddy wants to run his both suppressed and unsuppressed and have it be 100% reliable both ways.
Yesterday our plan was to zero 4 rifles (I also brought along a 20" rifle and he a 16" SR-25 ECC), shoot a few types of HD ammo into water jugs to recover and analyze the bullets, function test his Glock 21 with a factory threaded barrel and his MK23 with a Ti-Rant 45. We also brought out a chronograph to compare velocity deviations from the 11.5" / 16" / 20" rifles and some commercial .308 ammo vs. some milsurp 7.62 ammo. Unfortunately when zeroing the KAC SBR gun and his 16" KAC gun with SDN-6 suppressors mounted we had a plethora of stoppages from ejected / partially ejected brass getting caught on the bolt on its return stroke jamming up the action... I was shooting Black Hills 50gr TSX in the SBR and 75gr Hornady TAP T2 in the 20" rifle, he was strictly shooing TAP T2 in his SR-15.
At first we thought it was a fluke, but after the 6th or 7th same type of stoppage in about 30-35 rounds we decided to step back and verify the fundamentals. Mags were ruled out, ammo was ruled out, and so was proper weapon control / handling. After deciding to shadow the person shooting to watch the ejection pattern of the brass it was determined that both guns were suffering from too much gas. This resulted in the guns cycling so fast the brass was hitting the upper receiver in front of the brass deflector causing the brass to bounce off almost perfectly forward (12:00 - 1:00) and right next to the open ejection port... Removal of the suppressor confirmed the brass hit the deflector properly and slid off at the deflector a few feet from the gun (3:00 - 4:00). We were able to repeat this with both guns...
At this point we finished zeroing the other two rifles (the 45 degree offset sights messed with us on the SR25 and by the time we realized the way to zero them it was getting dark), tested the MK23 (ate everything we fed it and asked for more) and finally we collected a Black Hills 50 grain TSX all copper slug with a water jug test right before nightfall, then packed up and headed home.
Now today after thinking about my next course to remedy my SBR's gas problem I have installed an H&K 416 action spring and kept the KAC H2 buffer. As long as I can get it to run 100% reliably with the suppressor attached I will be happy. I decided to swap in this spring as I have a few new ones laying around in my parts bin and I don't have to wait to order one from SpringCo. Referencing rsilver's action spring analysis, the H&K Spring is 34% stronger than a Colt Carbine spring versus a SpringCo red which is 32% stronger with regards to mechanical force at 6.902" length. I will visit my local range and run a few hundred rounds of XM193 through it very soon to verify ejection and function.
My buddy wants his to run 100% both ways, no suppressor and with it attached. I informed him he may need a switch block or adjustable gas block to achieve this but I'm in uncharted waters here as this is my first time shooting /troubleshooting with suppressors. So, gentleman, please add some value to this thread if you have already blazed this trail... Please no speculators and internet spinsters. I will update my findings with my own SBR setup after I hit the range (may have time to today). I'll let my buddy (who is a member here) chime in with his findings when he can.
Pics of the stoppages... (my gun only but they look identical to what was taking place on his 16" KAC)
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And a few of our setup that day so we don't end on a negative note... :)
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If your KAC 11.5" barrel has a Colt size gas port (I don't know if it does) then you should be using an H3 buffer and a standard Colt carbine spring.
I have found this is the best combination over the widest variety of suppressors and unsuppressed using a 11.5" Colt barrel.
Gotcha - I'll go ahead and order an H3 from BCM to add to the mix of things to try as KAC doesn't make a specific H3 buffer...
If you have a slightly stiffer Sprinco unit or something, I'd try that as well - a suspicion that it's cycling too quickly, but the H3 seems like a better fix than the spring alone, and if that solves it don't spend money on a spring.
You can take apart 2 H2's and make an H3 to test it before you order one.
Well I just got back from the local range. The stiffer H&K Spring did help the ejection angle, but ejection is not 100% remedied. The carbine will now eject the brass at a 1:30-2:00 angle and I have brass streak marks on 1/2 of the brass deflector versus before I had no brass marks on it and it would eject 12:00-12:30. Next step for me now is to try the H3 buffer when it arrives and see if that does the trick. I can say this, the stiffer H&K spring did remedy the harsh cycling that I experienced when shooting suppressed. When I removed the suppressor I was surprised to find it cycled perfectly and had almost no recoil impulse what-so-ever...
You can take apart 2 H2's and make an H3 to test it before you order one.
goteron,
This was the plan earlier in the day (as I do have two H2 buffers) until I started to take them apart and realized the one KAC sent with the upper has a proprietary steel pin that is recessed into the buffer body on one side and dimpled and flared on the other so you cannot remove it unless you drill it out. So instead I have decided to give a little more business to BCM.
BufordTJustice
07-15-12, 15:54
A Vltor A5 buffer system would work wonders for you. Possibly with one of the heavier A5H3 or A5H4 buffers.
Iraq Gunz and C4Grant have used it extensively on their suppressed SBRs.
Great thread:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33743
Also, good luck on getting KAC's gas block off their barrel. They use a hydraulic press to fit it onto the gas block journal/shoulder. Maybe ADCO has the proper shop setup to remove it? Certainly KAC does.
Magic_Salad0892
07-15-12, 16:07
A Vltor A5 buffer system would work wonders for you. Possibly with one of the heavier A5H3 or A5H4 buffers.
I was right about to suggest that.
I use mine with Sprinco GREEN rifle length spring.
Looks like I have some reading to do...
I will try the H3 first before the A5 system.
(I do remember this thread - I read parts of it when I had my 10.5" Noveske barreled SBR that I ran unsuppressed - going to read the whole thing now)
Do you have any suggestions for a buffer/spring combination for the 16" sr15? As mentioned in the thread, I would like to have a setup was that would able to reliably cycle 5.56 ammo suppressed and unsuppressed.
BufordTJustice
07-15-12, 16:33
Do you have any suggestions for a buffer/spring combination for the 16" sr15? As mentioned in the thread, I would like to have a setup was that would able to reliably cycle 5.56 ammo suppressed and unsuppressed.
Without being a smartass, the A5 system is the most forgiving. Your best bet would be an A5 on the 16" as well.
Vltor also offers lighter-than-std buffers as well.
BufordTJustice,
The newer KAC rifles come with a new style block that is double pinned instead of pressed on like they used to; I'm pretty sure I can get it off but the question is why would I want to remove the gas block?
I started researching the A5 system and came across this thread on m4c where a member was having issues with it on their kac. See below
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75665
BufordTJustice
07-15-12, 16:51
BufordTJustice,
The newer KAC rifles come with a new style block that is double pinned instead of pressed on like they used to; I'm pretty sure I can get it off but the question is why would I want to remove the gas block?
I'm sorry. I stand corrected on both counts. I thought you were using the older block and that you were the one who mentioned possibly using a Noveske SwitchBlock. Disregard my previous comment.
10-4 - I would love to use a switch-block from Noveske but it's too large to fit under the URX2. As long as I can iron out my carbine so it's 100% suppressed I'm happy.
Although I would love to see KAC make a switch block that fits under their URX series rails; I wouldn't be wading through this mess right now if they did. Frankly, I'm not impressed that my 11.5" upper is so over-gassed when run suppressed and wonder why the compromise from KAC on the gas port size.
majorleaguekennels
07-15-12, 18:38
it may be worth trying, a new/different ejector spring in your bolt. I know you diagnosed over gasing, but a stronger/faster spring might get that brass out of there a bit quicker. just a cheap idea.
however unlikely it is where i would start diagnosing the problem first. I do not know how far away from Newnan Ga you are but the ar bunker may have some in stock.
I doubt they are bad on both rifles but your suggestion does make sense. I'm sure KAC uses a decent quality ejector spring and I don't think anyone makes a stronger one.
(I have a few Colt ejector spring spares new in bag that I can access if I need them)
I'll try the H3 this coming week and see where I'll go from there. I will report back once the H3 is in the gun...
KAC has been contacted and is looking into the matter further. Guns should not be choking this hard when run suppressed... Will update thread as things progress.
I had the exact same problem (over gassed when running a can) on 2 different KAC SR15s one factory SBR one standard 16". I tried switching out the factory buffers with H2 and H3 but still had issues. I ran both uppers supressed on a stock Colt 6933 lower with H3 buffer and they ran 100%. This lead me to the theory that the factory KAC buffer spring must be a "light" spring. I switched the KAC factoy springs in both lowers to new standard carbine replacement springs (had them in my spares kit) and changed to H3 buffers. Both work 100% suppressed and unsupressed.
motoduck I sincerely thank you for your post. :cool:
I should have the H3 in hand today or tomorrow and now I'm looking forward to going to the range to confirm proper ejection / function.
I expected more from KAC than catering to the lowest common denominator among consumers of their rifles / uppers...
(Opening up the gas port to accommodate the dumb-asses who bought their kit to only then turn around and feed it Tula / Wolf .223 junk ammo)
vicious_cb
07-18-12, 19:27
I would not worry too much about ejection patterns. Along as ejection is forceful enough, consistent and the recoil feels 'normal' then I could care less where the brass lands.
I expected more from KAC than catering to the lowest common denominator among consumers of their rifles / uppers...
(Opening up the gas port to accommodate the dumb-asses who bought their kit to only then turn around and feed it Tula / Wolf .223 junk ammo)
Interesting assumption. I made a call to KAC trying to determine what they were using as a buffer spring. I did not have much luck getting an answer. I thought it strange that neither a factory SR15 or Factory SBR would work with a KAC can out of the box? Maybe their full auto lowers use a different spring (could not get an answer to that question either). I am not trying to bash KAC, I love thir product and have more items on order. Maybe KAC wanted a certain recoil impulse? I know the change in spring and buffer made recoil "harsher" instead of the stock "soft push" impulse? Just goes to show you never know what will work without testing it first.
I agree with you motoduck, I'm not trying to bash KAC either but they did enlarge their gas ports on the current SR-15 offerings compared to the SR-15 carbines they initially released. I'm not sure how that translates to the SBR uppers but I was disappointed to say the least. I guess they got tired of fielding calls from folks saying their new rifle won't cycle .223 reliably...
My SBR's recoil impulse with the H2 KAC buffer and Colt carbine spring was really violent and created brass ejection issues where the brass would not get clear of the ejection port and tumble back in locking the gun up. I have since tried a Tubbs CS FW spring and the H2 combo (same result), and an H&K 416 "red stripe" spring and the H2 combo which resulted in no malfunctions but the brass ejection pattern was slightly erratic around 1:30-2:00. Yesterday, I tested a BCM H3 buffer along with the H&K spring and I think I found a sweet spot with my setup. The H3 buffer helped the rifle eject the brass another few feet further than the H2 and all of it was dead on at 2:00. You could probably have caught most of it with a cup so I am happy my ejection issues are solved. The combo also shoots incredibly soft and smooth, and combined with my LMT enhanced carrier, functions 100% with and without the can. I loaded about 10 rounds (I know it's a small sample for now) of XM193 one at a time in a Pmag and tested for the bolt to lock back, which it did every time both with and without the can. I also tested some random .223 ammo and it locked the bolt back with the can but not without; although it would cycle and feed without it. I put about 180-190 rounds through the current setup suppressed and had zero issues. I have decided to just keep it setup this way and put another 800-850 rounds (want to hit 1000 round mark suppressed) through it without cleaning it to see how reliable it will be going forward.
My buddy has since ordered an H3 and BCM carbine spring for his SR15 and he intends to test his setup with a Tubbs CS spring, H&K 416 red stripe spring, and an H&K 416 tungsten buffer in addition to the H3 and BCM spring to see what works best. He is not running an enhanced LMT carrier so it will be interesting to see what works 100% in his gun. Thanks again everyone for the advice, I may break down and pickup an A5 setup / LMT SOPMOD stock one day just to see how tangible the difference is over my current franken-setup.
I would not worry too much about ejection patterns. Along as ejection is forceful enough, consistent and the recoil feels 'normal' then I could care less where the brass lands.
Thanks for the insight - I finally have consistent ejection that I'm happy with...
BufordTJustice
07-19-12, 12:44
I agree with you motoduck, I'm not trying to bash KAC either but it they did enlarge their gas ports on the current SR-15 offerings compared to the original SR-15 carbines they originally released. I'm not sure how that translates to the SBR uppers but I was disappointed to say the least. I guess they got tired of fielding calls from folks saying their new rifle won't cycle .223 reliably...
My SBR's recoil impulse with the H2 KAC buffer and Colt carbine spring was really violent and created brass ejection issues where the brass would not get clear of the ejection port and tumble back in locking the gun up. I have since tried a Tubbs CS FW spring and the H2 combo (same result), and an H&K 416 "red stripe" spring and the H2 combo which resulted in no malfunctions but the brass ejection pattern was slightly erratic around 1:30-2:00. Yesterday, I tested a BCM H3 buffer along with the H&K spring and I think I found a sweet spot with my setup. The H3 buffer helped the rifle eject the brass another few feet further than the H2 and all of it was dead on at 2:00. You could probably have caught most of it with a cup so I am happy my ejection issues are solved. The combo also shoots incredibly soft and smooth, and combined with my LMT enhanced carrier, functions 100% with and without the can. I loaded about 10 rounds (I know it's a small sample for now) of XM193 one at a time in a Pmag and tested for the bolt to lock back, which it did every time both with and without the can. I also tested some random .223 ammo and it locked the bolt back with the can but not without; although it would cycle and feed without it. I put about 180-190 rounds through the current setup suppressed and had zero issues. I have decided to just keep it setup this way and put another 800-850 rounds (want to hit 1000 round mark suppressed) through it without cleaning it to see how reliable it will be going forward.
My buddy has since ordered an H3 and BCM carbine spring for his SR15 and he intends to test his setup with a Tubbs CS spring, H&K 416 red stripe spring, and an H&K 416 tungsten buffer in addition to the H3 and BCM spring to see what works best. He is not running an enhanced LMT carrier so it will be interesting to see what works 100% in his gun. Thanks again everyone for the advice, I may break down and pickup an A5 setup / LMT SOPMOD stock one day just to see how tangible the difference is over my current franken-setup.
I'm glad you got it functioning.
I think a Vltor A5 w/ A5H4 heavy buffer, possibly paired with a springco Green spring, would work wonders for you.
I think 'Gunz runs this setup with an LMT enhanced carrier in his SBR.....IIRC it worked suppressed and unsuppressed.
Thanks for the advice, I definitely will take note - just hate letting go of my UBR, which balances out my SBR quite nicely.
BufordTJustice
07-19-12, 12:49
Thanks for the advice, I definitely will take note - just hate letting go of my UBR, which balances out my SBR quite nicely.
I run an STR on my A5 setup. If they made a 'UBR-A5', I think I would put down the cash for it. It's a straight slick setup, to be sure.
lifebreath
07-19-12, 15:53
If you want to consider an adjustable gas block, the Syrac Ordnance Low Profile unit (http://www.syracordnance.com/) is very good and will fit under your rails. The adjustment is variable in increments and is very secure at each position by virtue of its design.
http://www.syracordnance.com/images/prod-head.jpg
You know I would consider a detent locking adjustable gas block if it was a conversion using the KAC double pinned micro gas block currently on my rifle... If you offer this service let me know, i would be happy to pull my block. Also, why is the protruding detent not centered above the screw?
KAC had a bad run of extractors, a while ago, that caused exactly that problem. Also the same batch needed a gaskey re-tighten and stake.
New extractors were sent from factory.
BTW if you can't sort out a feed/extract/eject issue.. dig film it & play it s l o w later.
Thanks for the additional info...
I personally sealed and staked the gas key on my LMT enhanced carrier, so that rules out a leak at the key. Also the extractor functioned fine without the supressor installed, could it be marginal and adding the supressor brought out the problem? I'm tempted to order a SR-15 field repair kit and swap extractors just to see if anything changes. The gun was cycling way too fast and way too hard the way it came from KAC which leads me to belive it was overgassed. I am happy with the H3 / H&K red spring combo in their now and will continue running ammo through the gun suppressed to ensure it's stays reliable.
Email me -- I know we talked, but in checking with our Engineering Test and Evaluation Depertment, I think you may need need extractor and spring.
suppressing will, of course, increase back pressure, speed up the action and exacerbate any issues.
A heavier buffer will slow it a bit, but the increased spring power of the HK spring may not help.
BTW I have had good luck using the A5 system to slow overgassed piston guns. a 416 with suppressor can get to 1200+ rpm
Kevin,
Just fired off an email in your direction.
Dano5326,
Can you elaborate on why a heavier spring may not help?
It seems like it really tamed the violent cycling I was experiencing...
Increased resistance in spring strength will also lead to increased speed going forward. To what exact degree, and with consideration to buffer weight & configuration, I cannot say.
No significant engineering background here..
I have tried springing and buffer-weight or configuration variances. More luck varying weight.
Also, you may have some difficulty resolving an issue with a vendor.. after a mix and match of makers & components.
Of note the LMT cam path is nonstandard and there is a lip on the carrier where the bolt goes in. Additionally the KAC Bolt pin hole and extractor is proprietary.. so it may not permit proper movement or tension.
Gotcha - I'll keep an eye on it feeding and try several different magazine types to ensure the increased spring force is not causing additional issues. Thanks for your insight! Knight's is also sending me a new extractor to swap into the gun to ensure it is not compounding the problem. I will post updates as I get more time to shoot the gun and will share any findings along the way. I will also double check the parts compatibility to ensure there are no mechanical problems with the mating of the LMT carrier and KAC bolt / cam pin.
Dano that was a really clever suggestion; I just pulled apart my BCG to inspect all of the components to ensure there is no mechanical contact or abnormal wear on any of the parts , paying close attention to the extractor arm, the BCG alignment ring machined into the front of the carrier, and the cam pin and cam pin tract. Everything looks 100% good to go, but I will check it again every few hundred rounds to ensure perfect continual compatibility. Interestingly enough LMT has chamfered the interior of the BCG "ring" to provide additional clearance for the extractor arm, something I have never noticed until I looked at it this afternoon.
120 more rounds (XM193F in one session) through it with the H3 and H&K red stripe spring - no malfunctions... Haven't had much time to go to the range the past week but this week looks promising.
Another 120 rounds of XM193F and no extraction issues but two failures to lock back on empty the last two mags.
I've got a hunch that the H&K spring is a tad too strong as I'm losing consistent lock back on an empty mag now that the action is filthy; where is the best place to pickup a blue and red SpringCo CS carbine spring and have them delivered with a quickness? (Ignore my question - just placed an order direct from SpringCo - picked up a green rifle length in case I go A5 and the blue and red carbine... )
Emailed SpringCo and they changed my order to three green rifle springs just in the nick of time. UBR is off to another member for his build - here is what happened today...
Ignore the shop dog, he insisted that he had to be in the garage while I was working on the rifle. Later he became cranky because I kept pounding away at things (buffer pins / staking the castle nut) with a mallet and disrupted his sleep several times so he decided to point his ass toward me. When I have some time in the next day or so I'll edit the post to make it look a little nicer and maybe add come additional comments. I'll report back Friday after a trip to the range for a 300 round session.
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Cleaned the counter to make way for gabuzz12's KAC gun since he lacks the tools to swap out his RE. I'll let him post any pics from his swap on his own time.
Everyone thank you for the solid advice on the A5 system - can't wait to go blasting tomorrow and see how she does. The pics above showing the buffers pulled apart was to build a H3A5 buffer from the one Vltor shipped with the kit and my now defunct H3 BCM buffer. Swapped in one tungsten weight in place of a steel weight did the trick and brought the buffer up to the weight Vltor advertises for their A5H3. I will try some weak sauce .223 ammo for the hell of it tomorrow just to see how much margin I have in the system.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6964/img3185jd.jpg
Not sure if anyone gives a rats ass anymore but if someone does I can post up my range session results from today. (420 rounds XM193)
Short answer is my gun now runs like a Columbian prostitute to the local police when the U.S.S.S. is in town...
Magic_Salad0892
08-10-12, 21:57
Not sure if anyone gives a rats ass anymore but if someone does I can post up my range session results from today. (420 rounds XM193)
Short answer is my gun now runs like a Columbian prostitute to the local police when the U.S.S.S. is in town...
Looks bitchin', man. Thanks for posting. :D
BufordTJustice
08-10-12, 23:51
Not sure if anyone gives a rats ass anymore but if someone does I can post up my range session results from today. (420 rounds XM193)
Short answer is my gun now runs like a Columbian prostitute to the local police when the U.S.S.S. is in town...
I give a shit. ;)
Glad to hear it brother. Enjoy the A5 kool aid.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Epic 4G Touch
Thanks Magic & Buford - I felt like I was starting to bother folks if I kept posting updates... Range session went very well - I brought a 500 round can of XM193F and about 60-70 rounds of mixed .223 ammo that I somehow managed to accumulate over the past 4-5 years. I ended up firing 420 (+/- 5) rounds of the XM193F and all my misc .223 ammo over the course of 2.5 hours with a few breaks in between to let things cools down. I would say that of the rounds I fired yesterday, 350 or so were suppressed and the gun ran like a sewing machine. The ejection angle with the suppressor was @ 2 with the brass going about 7 feet and all landing in the same spot on the range floor; without the suppressor, the brass kicked out @ 4 about 4 feet from me in a neat little pile. The gun was tested for lock back as follows:
- 15 tests XM193F + can = 100%
- 15 tests XM193F no can = 100%
- 15 tests .223 mix ammo + can = 100%
- 15 tests .223 mix ammo no can = 80% *
* 3 failures to lock back used Remington 55gr UMC .223 noted
The ammo I selected for the .223 no can lock back test out of the grab bag was as follows: 5 rounds of Hornady 75gr TAP, 5 rounds of Hornady .55gr SP, and 5 rounds of Remington 55gr UMC. The BCG did lock back twice with the UMC so I get the impression that it is right on the edge of locking back with the weak ass ammo I had to try. It cycled everything with zero issues and felt ridiculously smooth with no recoil impulse without the can and felt very smooth and brisk with it. I even held the rifle (without the can) loosely by the pistol grip out in front of me and tried to see if I could get it to fail to pick up any rounds using a mixture of whatever was left in .223 and a few 5.56 rounds mixed in a 30 round P-mag and it didn't give a shit. Tried 5 more lock back tests using this hold and XM193 and it arrogantly just kept locking back as if to say F-you. :D
I am very happy with the result. I never cleaned the upper when I received it from LawMen's, just stripped and lubed. I never cleaned it nor added lube the whole time I fired it up until last night. I estimate the gun ran about 950 rounds (including a range session when I first received the upper), of which 650-700 rounds were fired suppressed. The Vltor A5 system has about 420 rounds of XM193 and lets say 60 of .223 mixed ammo, 350 of which was suppressed. I'm calling it good at this point.
Worthy of separate mention is that I did have one parts failure at the range as seen in the pics. My bolt catch allowed the bolt to slam home on its own a few times at the end of the session. I made note of this to check things over when I got home. During dis-assembly I found the bolt catch chipped where the bolt hits it to stop the BCG from cycling on an empty mag. While staring in disbelief I then had a realization of why this happeend. Two or three years ago I removed the bolt catch from this lower (bought it stripped and completed with a G&R parts kit) for prototyping purposes for a failed business venture that went no where and never got the bolt catch back from my ex-partner. When I ended up building the lower out for a back up rifle a few months later I looked everywhere online for parts and only found one place that had any in stock. So, I ordered a DPMS bolt catch from Brownell's to get my lower functional again to continue with my build and told myself that later I would replace it with a LMT catch from Grant or a Colt catch when they were in stock. Well I forgot about that little bugger until yesterday... Surprise, surprise huh? :rolleyes: I laughed at myself for wasting money and quickly popped in a new LMT catch from my spare parts bin. I have learned my lesson to never ever buy shit parts again, even in a pinch, and consider myself lucky that this is my only experience with DPMS.
Last thing to note is that Frog Lube does one hell of a job of breaking down carbon and all of the crap that caked itself all over the operating components of the gun. I wiped the parts off with a blue shop towel and then let them sit in a tub covered with Frog Lube CLP. A few hours later I scrubbed them with a nylon brush (brass brush for the bolt) then wiped all of the components clean with another blue shop towel. They turned out so freaking minty new looking that I ended up re-cleaning and stripping the rest of the damn gun down to get it just as clean. (Way to go FrogLube!) Rifle is now back together all lubed up ready for more blasting.
And now the pics...
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5483/img3189dr.jpg
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/8923/img3190t.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1207/img3211u.jpg
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8126/img3192dc.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/4333/img3194vi.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/8742/img3198t.jpg
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5568/img3201qo.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1999/img3203go.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2191/img3204k.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5462/img3205ev.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6081/img3207j.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9348/img3208dc.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2316/img3209lb.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2339/img3210b.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1909/img3219s.jpg
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4074/img3224p.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8536/img3212af.jpg
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9165/img3214xj.jpg
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/323/img3215vz.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7728/img3213r.jpg
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7923/img3217rh.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3995/img3216ga.jpg
Awesome thread and awesome rifle! I wonder how much (and for how long) the DPMS bolt catch was contributing to the problems.
Thanks, the only problems the DPMS bolt catch would have caused would be related to locking the bolt back. It may have contributed to the three failures to lock back with the UMC ammo but I can't say for sure when it failed, other than it was this last range session. It was no longer able to reliably hold the bolt carrier back once it chipped... More than likely this is due to an improper heat treat that made the steel too brittle.
Well guys....
I haven't posted in this thread since Eman930 and I had our initial problems with the malfunctions using the factory KAC SR15 rifles and our AAC 762SDN6 suppressors. Eman930 has fixed his problems; HOWEVER, I can't seem to get my rifle up to speed. Using the advice of other members, I have installed the Vltor A5 system and a Springco "green" rifle spring. Here's goes my frustrating effort to fix this over-gassed issue:
Please keep in mind all ammo used during this test was Federal XM193.
Step 1:
I installed the Vltor A5 System and used the stock weight buffer and Springco spring. I went to the range....fired approximately 35 rounds....and cursed uncontrollably as I had three malfunctions...all stovepipes. I can say that the A5 system caused the ejection angle of the brass to be more consistant at approximately 2:30.
Step 2:
In an attempt to increase the buffer weight to get the rifle to cycle properly, I added one additional tungsten weight and removed one steel weight. I (again) went to the range...fired approximately 35 rounds...and cursed uncontrollably as I had multiple malfunctions.
Step 3: (Today's Range Trip)
I added an additional tungsten buffer weight....now all the weights in the buffer are tungsten. I (again) went to the range...fired approximately 35 rounds...and cursed uncontrollably as I had multiple malfunctions.
At this point, I am at my wits end with this KAC SR15! When Eman930 originally posted this thread, we were contacted by KAC, who promised new ejectors and springs. THESE NEVER CAME!! After multiple attempts at trying to get this person to send the parts....we gave up and tried to fix things on our own with the A5 system.
My opinion is that I must have a barrel with a gas hole the size of a sewer pipe! I assume in KAC's attempt to satisfy the general public with their rifle's ability to cycle junk ammo, they have obviously ignored more of the higher-end user, which I was under the impression that the company catered to when I purchased my KAC products.
I am beyond pissed at this point and am considering parting with all my KAC rifles because their products don't do what they claim. When I pay such a premium for products....I except them to work flawlessly without exception.
Well guys....can you think of anything for me to try??? I'm all out of options...at least that I can think of. I would appreciate any help/comments that you can provide.
About time you tested your damn gun!
Hopefully IraqGuns will be by to chime in.
Failure2Stop
11-02-12, 20:27
Well guys....
I haven't posted in this thread since Eman930 and I had our initial problems with the malfunctions using the factory KAC SR15 rifles and our AAC 762SDN6 suppressors. Eman930 has fixed his problems; HOWEVER, I can't seem to get my rifle up to speed. Using the advice of other members, I have installed the Vltor A5 system and a Springco "green" rifle spring. Here's goes my frustrating effort to fix this over-gassed issue:
Please keep in mind all ammo used during this test was Federal XM193.
Step 1:
I installed the Vltor A5 System and used the stock weight buffer and Springco spring. I went to the range....fired approximately 35 rounds....and cursed uncontrollably as I had three malfunctions...all stovepipes. I can say that the A5 system caused the ejection angle of the brass to be more consistant at approximately 2:30.
Step 2:
In an attempt to increase the buffer weight to get the rifle to cycle properly, I added one additional tungsten weight and removed one steel weight. I (again) went to the range...fired approximately 35 rounds...and cursed uncontrollably as I had multiple malfunctions.
Step 3: (Today's Range Trip)
I added an additional tungsten buffer weight....now all the weights in the buffer are tungsten. I (again) went to the range...fired approximately 35 rounds...and cursed uncontrollably as I had multiple malfunctions.
At this point, I am at my wits end with this KAC SR15! When Eman930 originally posted this thread, we were contacted by KAC, who promised new ejectors and springs. THESE NEVER CAME!! After multiple attempts at trying to get this person to send the parts....we gave up and tried to fix things on our own with the A5 system.
My opinion is that I must have a barrel with a gas hole the size of a sewer pipe! I assume in KAC's attempt to satisfy the general public with their rifle's ability to cycle junk ammo, they have obviously ignored more of the higher-end user, which I was under the impression that the company catered to when I purchased my KAC products.
I am beyond pissed at this point and am considering parting with all my KAC rifles because their products don't do what they claim. When I pay such a premium for products....I except them to work flawlessly without exception.
Well guys....can you think of anything for me to try??? I'm all out of options...at least that I can think of. I would appreciate any help/comments that you can provide.
Who did you talk to at KAC?
You can PM me if you don't want to talk about it publicly.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
A few thoughts....
It can be difficult to troubleshoot especially when people are modifying and dicking with stuff.
As far as I know the ports on the KAC SR-15 aren't that great. In fact, there are plenty of other carbines that have ports that are at least that large and larger and they seem to run.
I am curious as to why you dissected a Vltor buffer rather than just getting the correct weight. I would be running the Vltor H4 buffer.
Does the KAC bolt use proprietary ejector and extractor springs?
IG,
I think the ejector spring is non-proprietary but the extractor springs are... I swapped in tungsten weights in my buffer as well since I had an (now obsolete) H3 BCM buffer; its cheaper than buying a new VLTOR H3 or H4. From what I read, gabuzz has all 4 weights as tungsten and his gun is still cycling cheap ass ammo without the suppressor fine. I would have thought it wouldn't pick up the next round with that amount of weight.
Thoughts?
I would probably go ahead and replace the ejector spring first. Then I would retest and see what happens. It doesn't sound like an extractor issue to me.
What is the round count on this thing?
IG,
I think the ejector spring is non-proprietary but the extractor springs are... I swapped in tungsten weights in my buffer as well since I had a (now obsolete) H3 BCM buffer; its cheaper than buying a new VLTOR H3 or H4. From what I read, gabuzz has all 4 weights as tungsten and his gun is still cycling cheap ass ammo fine. I would have thought it wouldn't pick up the next round with that amount of weight.
Thoughts?
I forgot to mention that I'm still a little pissed that I bought a $1650 upper, an upper mind you, that was touted as running well suppressed and then I go to use it and it ****ing chokes up shooting 5.56 mil-spec ammo suppressed...? Are you kidding me? And then to know they make a nice 11.5" mil barrel with the smaller port, proper strength to weight profile,and is dimpled behind the gas block to save weight (instead of the retarded Gov't profile I ended up with) but they won't sell it to me? What??? However, 50 guys called "Original Gansters" can buy them because they bitched and griped to KAC years ago and got a special run going for them but you're screwed if you are not part of the original 50 if you want to buy this stuff... WTF? Now you have me upset that I had to spend money on my setup to make it run well because my "commercial" spec barrel is made for a wide range of idiots to use rather than dropping in a warning card that states only 5.56 mil-spec ammo should be used in this gun for it to function reliably and let the morons be morons.
IG,
Round count is approximately 500 on my sr15
I totally did not expect this to happen from a super high end upper...sorry to hear about yours troubles....is it only giving you troubles suppressed or both?
Did you read the thread???
My advice is to reach out to KAC rep here and see about sending the upper in for examination. 500 rounds is nothing.
IG,
Round count is approximately 500 on my sr15
Failure2Stop
11-03-12, 20:55
My advice is to reach out to KAC rep here and see about sending the upper in for examination. 500 rounds is nothing.
Kevin and I are on it.
Somehow the whole "contact the manufacturer first" got bypassed.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
KAC was contacted months ago....they did nothing.
Failure2Stop
11-03-12, 22:35
KAC was contacted months ago....they did nothing.
PM...
For clarity's sake; Kevin replied earlier in the thread, so he was obviously contacted, however, KAC did not have the opportunity to have their fixes applied. I am not saying that this is your fault, simply that the factory correction was bypassed. I'm not pointing fingers at you.
"Factory fix" from KAC applied and gabuzz's SR-15 now has failure to eject malfunctions... Sorry but the commercial version of the gun is clearly over-gassed from KAC. I will be posting a separate new thread before the year runs out testing a 14.5" KAC against a 14.5" BCM. If the KAC gives me any issues at all its a goner quicker than you can say E3.
I not sure if they are over gassed or not but I was surprised that my 16 inch KAC would cycle 223 ammo with a H2 buffer with a blue springco spring unsuppressed. I love my Knights rifle it runs great but doesn't seem near as sensitive as some people have said.
In my 1st hand experience, the commercial version 16" SR-15 E3 legacy carbine (not the early versions with the smaller gas ports) is over-gassed when you run it with a suppressor attached because it was designed to cycle weak sauce .223 ammo; this compromise only effects those who wish to suppress their gun. KAC's commercial version 11.5" SR-15 E3 CQB SBR also showed (my first hand experience) to be over-gassed suppressed but was later remedied by installing an A5 RE and A5 H3 buffer.
In my 1st hand experience, the commercial version 16" SR-15 E3 legacy carbine (not the early versions with the smaller gas ports) is over-gassed when you run it with a suppressor attached because it was designed to cycle weak sauce .223 ammo; this compromise only effects those who wish to suppress their gun. KAC's commercial version 11.5" SR-15 E3 CQB SBR also showed to be over-gassed suppressed but was remedied with an A5 RE and A5 H3 buffer.
I may have to try a H3 buffer in my 16 inch when I get approved for my suppressor. Currently shooting it with the H2 and blue spring without the suppressor. I was just surprised that it would cycle that's all. I will be curious how 11.5 upper runs once I get it.
Check the this thread, I still had issues using a heavier action spring and a BCM H3 buffer when the SDN-6 was attached to the rifle. Vltor's A5 system with the second heaviest buffer (A5H3) and a green Springco spring fixed my 11.5" gun completely. Unfortunately the A5 system did not fix the legacy SR-15 my buddy owns...
Adding a heavier buffer and changing the spring aren't going to solve the issue of overgassing. It will simply cure part of the symptom.
I may have to try a H3 buffer in my 16 inch when I get approved for my suppressor. Currently shooting it with the H2 and blue spring without the suppressor. I was just surprised that it would cycle that's all. I will be curious how 11.5 upper runs once I get it.
Putting the bolt in correctly might help...
:big_boss:
Good catch, I just learned of the bolt being in backwards this morning... I should have looked at the pics gabuzz sent on my PC rather than my smart phone. He is going to swap the bolt and re-test.
I was just being a smart ass when I saw the pics on Tom's computer.
Actually the Cam pin should not be able to be inserted that way -- very strange
He is going to swap the bolt and re-test.
Why not just have him post here if it is his weapon?
He should be along shortly...
Well as a few have mentioned, I screwed up the orientation of the bolt when I swapped the extractors. I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS EVEN POSSIBLE. Obviously, this was my fault; however, I think I may have uncovered yet another issue with either the bolt or the cam pin. Based on my conversation with others....this is not supposed to be possible. The cam pin can definitely be inserted into the bolt as is evidenced by the pics below. Before anyone asks...no I didn't use a hammer, punch or any other tool to get the cam pin into the bolt....just by hands. Of course, I am going to test the new extractor, but something else is out of spec. I'm sure KAC has 10,000 bolts laying around...surely this is something they would warranty. Let me know what you think guys.
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/gabuzz12/1354581180.jpg
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/gabuzz12/1354581157.jpg
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/gabuzz12/1354581263.jpg
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/gabuzz12/1354581247.jpg
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h471/gabuzz12/1354581202.jpg
Dude that is way weird. It should not be possible - however an infinity number of monkey on an infinite number of typewriters etc.
Email Tom and I, and I will get him to give you an RMA, as I want to look at it.
Who's Bolt Carrier is that? There is a cutout on the Gas Key I have never seen before.
Magic_Salad0892
12-03-12, 21:36
That's really ****ing weird.
Its a Fail Zero carrier.
The hits just keep coming. I kinda doubt Knights sent a fail Zero, I would guess we have a couple monkey wrenches. I have an SR-15 that runs like a champ.
I'm very interested, I may put an AAC adapter on mine and run it suppressed, just to see what happens. My guess is it will run and run and run. But who knows. Seems like the OP is trying to be legit, but then we "fail at zero". .????
I would love to see the results of you testing your 16" SR-15 suppressed... His gun also ran like a champ before the 7.62 SDN-6 came into play. Not sure why you doubt that Gabuzz is having issues, that are unrelated to the aftermarket carrier. If you read my posts in this thread you know this is not an isolated incident.
Just out of pure ignorant curiousity, has anyone contacted AAC regarding the issues?
I don't doubt he is having issues, cause and effect is the question. I'm mostly just interested in how Mine works.
Why the issue is with the rifle not the suppressor. :confused:
Just out of pure ignorant curiousity, has anyone contacted AAC regarding the issues?
I would love to see the results of you testing your 16" SR-15 suppressed... His gun also ran like a champ before the 7.62 SDN-6 came into play.
I have a 16 inch SR-15 and an AAC M4/SPR can. When I first got it I ran a bunch of tests with the can on and off, different ammo types, and different buffer weights. Surprisingly enough, I never had any problems with any combo. 100% reliable in each case. I ended up settling on the H buffer, which has gone about 3,000 rounds (about 50/50 with the can on/off) with perfect reliability. The gun has about 5,000 rounds total. I have cleaned it at least once, maybe twice in that time. Otherwise, just add lube.
I don't doubt he is having issues, cause and effect is the question. I'm mostly just interested in how Mine works.
Are you saying you want to burn some powder? Cuz I'm always up for that, JACK! :)
Per KevinB's request I sent the bolt, cam pin, and firing pin to KAC today for evaluation. They told me 10 business day turn around so I hope to be able to post the results soon. I really appreciate Kevin's help to try to get the bolt issue resolved.
Are you saying you want to burn some powder? Cuz I'm always up for that, JACK! :)
Yep, but your going to have to turn a wrench on the upper to get us there. Only pisser , is I'm going to have to buy my nine millionth AAC Adpter.
Curiousity killed the cat on this one. We can test that somomu bitch with all the usual high end suspects. :lol: Wolf, silver bear, not mention his bro- brown bear then some hand loaded ZINGERS. :dance3:
We can try , the 7.62SDN, M4-2000 and mini. And if that thing won't malfunction, well change out to a hybrid BCG, if it still runs, we can drop some sub-sonic ammo in it. :D
You sound like quite the jackass... Maybe you should try reading the thread before your next post. You did not identify if you have one of the early SR-15s with the smaller gas port of the later production, which were not designed to run suppressed. I'm all for duplicating a test on your SR-15, but use the same ammo (Federal XM193) and same suppressor (7.62 SDN-6).
You sound like quite the jackass... Maybe you should try reading the thread before your next post. You did not identify if you have one of the early SR-15s with the smaller gas port of the later production, which were not designed to run suppressed. I'm all for duplicating a test on your SR-15, but use the same ammo (Federal XM193) and same suppressor (7.62 SDN-6).
Now now now, lets not get huffy , we are all in search of the same answers to this Knights Armament , smith and Wesson failed zero issue. I have a 7.62SDN and XM193, and if mine chokes, I will be the first to say so. Irqaq gunz tried to get me to buy your upper so I could have been in the same boat as you. I feel you Bro.
You should have just bought the 12 pack of AAC mounts... :eek:
My 11.5" upper ran great suppressed once I offset the gas issue with the A5 system... Don't get pissy with me because KAC makes their commercial stuff to a different spec then their mil line. It's just the hand we are dealt from the powers that be... I expected a little more for the $$$ I spent.
Everyone ratchet this down a little the issue is being addressed and there is no need to piss all over each other.
Ferris2son
12-07-12, 23:58
My 11.5" upper ran great suppressed once I offset the gas issue with the A5 system... Don't get pissy with me because KAC makes their commercial stuff to a different spec then their mil line. It's just the hand we are dealt from the powers that be... I expected a little more for the $$$ I spent.
So E-Man...should I expect problems when I shoot the KAC SBR upper? I have a SR-15 lower and was planning on just installing the buffer that came with the upper.
Like I said, this upper ran like a sewing machine for me until I suppressed it. Then it required a heavier buffer to slow things down, if you read the whole thread you will see my progress with it. The Vltor A5 system with their A5H3 buffer and a green SpringCo rifle spring enabled it to run like a sewing machine suppressed and unsuppressed. If you plan on using a SDN-6 with this upper, I would recommend the A5 system.
Ferris2son,
I am sure the Vltor A5 system is nice kit (I have no experience with it). Before you spend a bunch of extra $, I would run your set up and see what happens. If you have issues there are options and there is plenty of info in this thread. Below is my solution to this problem a detailed earlier in this thread. For what its worth, I have also fired over 1500 rds through my 11.5" KAC upper on a registered M16 lower w/ H3 standard carbine buffer sping combo, suppressed (KAC QDSS NT4) with Zero issues.
I had the exact same problem (over gassed when running a can) on 2 different KAC SR15s one factory SBR one standard 16". I tried switching out the factory buffers with H2 and H3 but still had issues. I ran both uppers supressed on a stock Colt 6933 lower with H3 buffer and they ran 100%. This lead me to the theory that the factory KAC buffer spring must be a "light" spring. I switched the KAC factoy springs in both lowers to new standard carbine replacement springs (had them in my spares kit) and changed to H3 buffers. Both work 100% suppressed and unsupressed.
Ferris2son
12-08-12, 10:33
Like I said, this upper ran like a sewing machine for me until I suppressed it. Then it required a heavier buffer to slow things down, if you read the whole thread you will see my progress with it. The Vltor A5 system with their A5H3 buffer and a green SpringCo rifle spring enabled it to run like a sewing machine suppressed and unsuppressed. If you plan on using a SDN-6 with this upper, I would recommend the A5 system.
I'm teasing the E-Man.
My only SBR lower (DDLES) has the A5 system. I've had problems with my 16" SR-15 like those described in the thread. It's picky. I haven't put an A5 on the KAC lower yet. I probably will when it's Form 1 clears.
I'm teasing the E-Man.
My only SBR lower (DDLES) has the A5 system. I've had problems with my 16" SR-15 like those described in the thread. It's picky. I haven't put an A5 on the KAC lower yet. I probably will when it's Form 1 clears.
:haha:
For those who don't know, Ferris2son bought my 11.5" upper so that I could afford KAC's 14.5" upper (without the wife making me go live on Gabuzz's couch). Rock on man, post your results in this thread if you get anything different than what I experienced. Actually, post here either way to keep everyone informed...
I'm teasing the E-Man.
My only SBR lower (DDLES) has the A5 system. I've had problems with my 16" SR-15 like those described in the thread. It's picky. I haven't put an A5 on the KAC lower yet. I probably will when it's Form 1 clears.
Please define "picky" regarding your 16" upper. What ammo, buffer setup or any other factors you changed compared to the factory recommended configuration?
Ditto, please share the details about your 16" KAC gun, and weather or not it is an early (small gas port) or later gun (gas port enlarged to cycle .223 bulk ammo)...
I've owned both the small and enlarged port SR15's. The only issue I ever had was with some very weak Centurion brass and Wolf. Granted, I don't own a suppressor either, which is what started this particular thread.
E-man, have you seen this thread?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=118010&page=3
The insertable gas port mentioned there might have helped out more than the A5.
At least if it had been available at the time.
Ferris2son
12-09-12, 01:30
Please define "picky" regarding your 16" upper. What ammo, buffer setup or any other factors you changed compared to the factory recommended configuration?
Early small port.
Generally ammo that shot well unsuppressed wouldn't shoot well suppressed, and visa versa. I danced around with different Springco units and buffer weights but couldn't get 100% reliability. We did put the upper on a Spikes lower with the A5 one day that Vuurwapen had and it ran good.
PMC XTAC 5.56 is what I used most during that period last year. XM193 does better, but interestingly Hornady steel 233 75 gr is most reliable.
E-man, have you seen this thread?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=118010&page=3
The insertable gas port mentioned there might have helped out more than the A5.
At least if it had been available at the time.
Interesting... I'd like to see some pics
I would like to personally thank Jack and Kevin for their help with my sr-15 bolt. Upon inspection, they replaced the bolt and shipped my bcg back to me. I really appreciate the extra effort
I would like to personally thank Jack and Kevin for their help with my sr-15 bolt. Upon inspection, they replaced the bolt and shipped my bcg back to me. I really appreciate the extra effort
I thought these bolts were rated to 20,000 rounds. What was the root cause of the problem?
Failure2Stop
01-11-13, 08:21
I thought these bolts were rated to 20,000 rounds. What was the root cause of the problem?
The bolt was not worn out or broken, there was a slight manufacturing defect that was identified.
The bolt was not worn out or broken, there was a slight manufacturing defect that was identified.
Awesome. Thanks for the update!
BufordTJustice
01-12-13, 13:56
I would like to personally thank Jack and Kevin for their help with my sr-15 bolt. Upon inspection, they replaced the bolt and shipped my bcg back to me. I really appreciate the extra effort
As per usual. KAC and the boyz will get you squared-away.
I wager that your bolt would still have gone the same distance as an unblemished bolt as the front of the (already strengthened) bolt lugs is not a common failure point. Either way, you're set now.
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