WARNING: BVAC Ammo Problems [Archive]

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Sam Sr

07-15-12, 16:21

In early April I ordered 3,000 rounds of 40 S&W FMJ from Cheaper Than Dirt. The ammo was manufactured by Bitteroot Valley Ammunition Company (BVAC).

These are factory reloads. For 40 S&W this is the cheapest ammo that would function well through my Glock 23. I have shot this ammo in the past but did not notice the problem that I am currently experiencing.

In May I was shooting with some friends that I train with and was stinking it up. I was missing steel at distances that should be easy. At lunch I shot from a rested position at 25 yards and was missing the steel all over the place. I switched to shooting my friend's Glock 17 and routinely rang the steel as normal.

After lunch we started shooting paper at distance and I shot this target. Notice the shots in the black are clean holes. The shots outside are rougher or look like two rounds. They are actually keyholed.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone168.jpg

I could see from 25 that my target was embarrassingly terrible. I could see the giant holes from 25 yards away and that is when the relief hit me that something was wrong and that it wasn't me.

Here is a closeup of one of the keyholes in the target.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone169.jpg

At first we considered that the barrel was worn out, but then I remembered that I had dipped into a new box of ammo.

I went back to the range by myself and shot some more of this ammo as well as two other brands, Wolf and Speer. The problem was apparent with the BVAC ammo while the Wolf and Speer grouped normally.

Wolf @ 25 yds.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone195.jpg

Speer @ 25 yds.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone193.jpg

BVAC Ammo @ 25 yds.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone196.jpg

Two rounds flew wide of the entire backer. It wasn't the best target to show the problem but it was what I had in the truck when I stopped by the range.

At this point I contacted Cheaper Than Dirt, assuming that they would refer me to the manufacturer, which they did. I then contacted BVAC explained the problem and my opinion that the bullets were unstable in flight and keyholeing. The first customer service representative was friendly enough and asked me to send the pictures documenting the problem.

After a week or so of emails back and forth explaining the details I thought that we were headed somewhere. One of their technical people confirmed the keyholeing in my pictures. Then I stopped hearing from them. I called and expressed my concern. They sent me to the range again to document the problem again.

I shot this target.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone199.jpg

At this point they shot the same batch of ammo out of a Glock 23 and could not replicate the problem. I asked what distance they had shot and the customer service representative told me 25 ft, despite the fact that I clearly told them that the instability only showed up at some distance. I mentioned both via phone and email that I was shooting at 25 yards.

After days without a response I called and demanded that someone tell me for the last time what they needed from me to fix this. Their expert said that the problem was that I was shooting at a target that was not fully supported.

I know that the paper can tear funny, but that does not explain the two foot group and it does not explain my first target. I wanted them to fix this so I went back to the range again to satisfy their concerns. You can see that the rounds that fly true do not keyhole. Anything that keyholes is wide, or off paper in some cases that I didn't include in this post.

In addition, they wanted me to see if the cartridges were deformed in any way. I took pictures of the ammo, the targets and the spent cases. I had a friend their to catch the brass and confirm my results.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone231.jpghttp://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone233.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone234.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone235.jpg

I think at this point they asked how many rounds in total I had shot (about 250-300). They sent me a box of 500. This was from a different batch than the first 3,000 rounds (2 batches). I called to ask why they sent me 500 rounds. At this point they explained that they were unable to replicate the problem and that they were sending the 500 rounds to make up for the ammo I shot that didn't work.

I was very frustrated to say the least. I explained that replacing the ammo that I had shot did nothing for the 1,500 rounds and perhaps 3,000 rounds that I had that were complete garbage.

They basically told me “too bad.” I even told them that if they did not fix things I would fully document this online.

At this point I went back to the retailer, Cheaper Than Dirt. They took on the task of talking to the manufacturer and got them to send me 1,000 rounds (a different batch than the three previous batches).

Since I had not dipped into the second batch of the original 3,000 rounds I guess there was no proof it was defective.

I hoped that everything would work out.

This weekend I went to the range to test ammo from all three untested batches. All three batches exhibited the problem and once again the Speer and Wold ammo grouped nicely. I was in a hurry and pissed by the time I shot the Wolf control group. These groups were shot at 32 yards.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone053.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone054.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone055.jpg
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone056.jpg

Wolf.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/Sam243/Iphone057.jpg

At this point Cheaper Than Dirt will not give me a refund. They feel that it is a manufacturing problem and they did their part. They stated that I need to take it up with BVAC again.

BVAC made it clear that they were not going to do anything about it.

They only thing that I have not done is repeat the test from another firearm. However, I am sick of testing their inferior product for them.

While Cheaper Than Dirt has been helpful at times they are marketing and selling a product that is worthless for anything more than making noise and is dangerous. I informed them of this and they do not intend to do anything about it.

I have wasted my time and money and now have a bunch of garbage ammo.

DO NOT BUY BVAC AMMO! Be very careful shopping from Cheaper Than Dirt!

TucsonFX4

07-15-12, 18:11

Sucks to jear about all the problems. Sounds like you were thorough and did your part giving the manufacturer a chance to figure it out and make it right, which they did not. Gonna stick with factory reloads or go to new manufacturer ammo?

Sam Sr

07-15-12, 21:22

I am not buying this stuff ever again.

Factory aluminum cased for range use most likely.

Heavy Metal

07-15-12, 21:51

Did you pay with a Credit Card?

Sam Sr

07-15-12, 22:44

I did. That was the first point that a friend raised to me.
At this point it is probably too late since that was back in early April.

chadbag

07-15-12, 22:53

I did. That was the first point that a friend raised to me.
At this point it is probably too late since that was back in early April.

It is never too late. Write to your credit card company, dispute the charge, say the items were not as described and are defective and that the merchant has not offered to make you whole. Describe it all exactly as you did here. Pics and everything.

Heavy Metal

07-15-12, 22:54

April? I bet it isn't, call you CC company and if they ask for evidence, send them a copy of this thread. I have had them go back farther than three months before.

The product is defective in performance and does not adequately fill its intended function.

ccrn_csc

07-15-12, 23:12

Wow. Sorry to hear. I have shot thousands of BVAC. Everything from 9mm to .308 and most calibers in between. While it isn't sub MOA ammo, is always has grouped well.

Sorry for your luck. Too bad you don't have another 40 to shoot the bad ammo thru- even though the pistol groups other brands better. You could sell it on gunbroker and recoup some of the $$.

Someone will buy it.

Gramps

07-16-12, 00:24

I have a friend here, that lives just up the road from BVAC, and he was out with some friends shooting the same .40 BVAC reloads, and experienced the same thing. It was just the ".40 Reloads". I don't know if he went down and talked to them yet or not. I suggested to him at the time to mike the bullets OD. Seems weird, it was only .40, and not the .45, or 9mm.

10MMGary

07-16-12, 00:54

I suggested to him at the time to mike the bullets OD. Seems weird, it was only .40, and not the .45, or 9mm.
My thinking exactly, I am betting way undersized or out of round. Either way they should make it right, thanks for the heads up.

PA PATRIOT

07-16-12, 09:24

Are these "Plated" bullets?

Plated bullets have always been known to shoot like crap out of Glock Barrels.

My 2nd Gen Model 22 & 23 both would not group with any manufacture of plated bullets and would some times keyhole.

Sam Sr

07-16-12, 15:20

They are sold as jacketed rounds. I will ask. I was supposed to get a call from someone this morning.

G_M

07-16-12, 16:17

While Cheaper Than Dirt has been helpful at times they are marketing and selling a product that is worthless for anything more than making noise and is dangerous. I informed them of this and they do not intend to do anything about it.

I have wasted my time and money and now have a bunch of garbage ammo.

DO NOT BUY BVAC AMMO! Be very careful shopping from Cheaper Than Dirt!

DUDE!
So I bought 9mm BVAC ammo from surplusammo early 2012 and I have had the same problem. Even on the worst day I can hit at least somewhere on the paper. With the BVAC I would have maybe 3-4 (10 rnd string) in the black and the rest missed the paper entirely.

I would switch to my PMC ammo and shoot in the 90's (10 rnd string) on a B-8 NRA target. Then go back to the BVAC and again have a couple in the black and the rest unaccountable.

For me it was unbelievable that 9mm from 25 yards could even vary that much. I did a quick internet search but nothing so I figured I just got a bad batch and put that ammo aside to burn when I'm up close doing drills that basically dump ammo.

I stuck to PMC/Federal because I thought it was my gun (Gen 3 G19) but after seeing this its 100% BVAC. Do not buy that crap!

Shawn.L

07-16-12, 16:27

I shot with Sam as he discovered this problem. I was amazed to see the clearly sideways bullet holes, and am still astounded they pretty much told him to **** off.

Bitterroot Valley Ammunition will never get a dime off me.

I still say you need to follow up with your CC company, I wouldnt be paying for this stuff. No way.

Grand58742

07-17-12, 15:02

At this point I went back to the retailer, Cheaper Than Dirt. They took on the task of talking to the manufacturer and got them to send me 1,000 rounds (a different batch than the three previous batches).

At this point Cheaper Than Dirt will not give me a refund. They feel that it is a manufacturing problem and they did their part. They stated that I need to take it up with BVAC again.

While Cheaper Than Dirt has been helpful at times they are marketing and selling a product that is worthless for anything more than making noise and is dangerous. I informed them of this and they do not intend to do anything about it.

Be very careful shopping from Cheaper Than Dirt!

While I am no CTD fan, I believe they have gone above and beyond so far in helping you. You contacted them, they told you to contact the manufacturer (like most online retailers would). And after BVAC told you where to stick it, CTD went out of their way to get the manufacturer to send you another thousand rounds free of charge? And without you paying a dime to one of their employees to make it happen?

And yet you still find the opportunity to bitch about a company that went out of their way to assist you as best as they could? Just because they won't stop selling a product that probably sells well from their site, but, had you looked around, to be of questionable quality to begin with? So one person gripes about that brand, they should shitcan the entire line?

Again, not a fan of CTD as I can find my ammo elsewhere cheaper and with better shipping, but seriously, this sounds more like a TOS "blast the distributor because a manufacturer ****ed up" thread instead of purely a technical problem.

You bought ammo of questionable quality, it showed on the range, you got pissed because you are out a lot of money and take pot shots at the distributor that, instead of telling you to get bent, took time and effort to help and got you $250 worth of ammo without you paying a dime. Now you expect the them to stop selling it because one person bitched and the distributor is shit because they won't stop selling that particular line? And tell others to "be careful" about a company that attempted to help?

Priceless...

chadbag

07-17-12, 15:43

While I am no CTD fan, I believe they have gone above and beyond so far in helping you. You contacted them, they told you to contact the manufacturer (like most online retailers would). And after BVAC told you where to stick it, CTD went out of their way to get the manufacturer to send you another thousand rounds free of charge? And without you paying a dime to one of their employees to make it happen?

And yet you still find the opportunity to bitch about a company that went out of their way to assist you as best as they could? Just because they won't stop selling a product that probably sells well from their site, but, had you looked around, to be of questionable quality to begin with? So one person gripes about that brand, they should shitcan the entire line?

Again, not a fan of CTD as I can find my ammo elsewhere cheaper and with better shipping, but seriously, this sounds more like a TOS "blast the distributor because a manufacturer ****ed up" thread instead of purely a technical problem.

You bought ammo of questionable quality, it showed on the range, you got pissed because you are out a lot of money and take pot shots at the distributor that, instead of telling you to get bent, took time and effort to help and got you $250 worth of ammo without you paying a dime. Now you expect the them to stop selling it because one person bitched and the distributor is shit because they won't stop selling that particular line? And tell others to "be careful" about a company that attempted to help?

Priceless...

I think you are missing the point.

The DISTRIBUTOR (AKA RETAILER) is responsible for selling the product. If the product does not meet the description it was sold under, then it is the DISTRIBUTOR/RETAILER's responsibility to fix the issue.

The consumer has little recourse against the manufacturer. The retailer is the one that took the money and has to deliver the goods. If the goods are defective, it is the retailer's job to fix the situation or refund the money or provide the goods that are not defective.

CTD in this case, from what I understand, did not arrange an extra $250 worth of ammo. They arranged a set of replacement ammo, but not enough to cover the defective goods.

--

PA PATRIOT

07-17-12, 16:01

Here is a summary of the OP's posts.

OP purchased 3000rds of .40S&W ammunition on-line from a vendor (CTD) all which were from two lots of Bitteroot Valley Ammunition Company (BVAC) manufacture.

OP fires 250 to 300 rounds of one lot and finds the ammunition is sub-par and contracts the vendor and then the manufacturer.

Manufacturer ships 500rds to OP and vendor later has a addition 1000rds shipped to OP after talking to the manufacturer.

Now the original tested lot which was 1500rds was replaced and the OP still retained the remaining 1200rds which shoots like crap in one Glock Model-23 he owns.

OP later shoots rounds of the replacement ammunition which was said to be from two different lots and then rounds from the original 3000rd purchased which had a different lot number then the first batch which tested bad.

All lots showed the same poor accuracy and key holing but both the vendor and manufacturer basically have refused to discuss the matter further.

What else can the OP do?

I would suggest that the OP uses a different manufacturer of .40cal pistol other then a Glock to see if the problem persists, if the same issues occur once again then we can rule out that the OP's Glock was the cause and it is a (BVAC) manufacturing defect.

As for CTD they are solely responsible for the products that they advertise and sell and should make good with the customer if it is shown the product sold is defective. The retailer is the one who should deal with the manufacturer not the end buyer as once again they sold the possible defective product to the OP.

To the credit of the OP he did provide picture evidence of the issue and shown that he could shoot decent groups with other types of .40S&W ammunition out of the same gun.

Once the OP posts pictures of groups fired from a different .40S&W pistol which duplicates the issues with all lots of ammunition on hand then I would say he has made his case and has every right to complain on-line and Thur other avenues until a refund is received and the bad ammunition is shipped back on CTD's dime.

Sam Sr

07-17-12, 16:26

The replacement ammo was just that. I have to send some of the original ammo back.
In addition I have a job other than testing products for a manufacturer and retailer that seem unwilling to accept a reasonable amount of evidence of a problem.
As was mentioned my recourse is limited.
I was simply posting a warning from my experiences.

PA PATRIOT

07-17-12, 20:47

KiserSose

07-17-12, 21:56

I thank you for the warning. Unfortunately I have purchased some ammo from CTD that was manufactured by BVCA as well. I have not shot it, but hope that their 5.56 Mk318 Mod 0 does not have issues. Either way it will be the last time I buy ammo from CTD and BVAC brand.

Sam Sr

07-18-12, 21:59

I contacted my credit card company. They were cooperative. I am disputing the charges.

I also talked to another person from CTD today, again. Seems he may be interested in looking into this since they sell so much of it.

vicious_cb

07-19-12, 03:06

I still don't understand why people buy ammo from these backyard ammo manufacturers. You hear things like "BVAC mk318 was so cheap and just as good as real mk318 even though the bullets were spinning in the case."

Anyone remember USA ammo a while back? Stick with known ammo manufacturers.

KiserSose

07-19-12, 09:32

Pardon me, but I only found out afterward that it was BVAC. I purchased it at the CTD store, where there was no label on the box stating it was BVAC, it looked like Federal or surplus. Since finding this out, I don't purchase ammo from them anymore.

tpd223

07-19-12, 21:09

For a variety of reasons, including past dealings with the owner of BVAC when he was working at HSM, I would not shoot BVAC ammo if it was free and delivered to my house by the Swedish Bikini Team.

I have seen this issue before in their 9mm ammo from folks who didn't know any better and bought BVAC ammo.

ffhounddog

07-20-12, 06:22

They raised their prices and they went down bad. My stuff from 2010 (I bought a few cases of it) is working okay with acceptable accuracy fast foward to the box of 50 I bought to get free shipping and it is way off. I got the box from CTD and the cases came straight from BVAC.

There are better and cheaper options now.

spclk

07-23-12, 15:50

...

I would not shoot BVAC ammo if it was free and delivered to my house by the Swedish Bikini Team.

...

In that particular case, I would indeed shoot this ammo (but only when nobody was looking)

Sam Sr

07-23-12, 17:22

After I contacted my credit card company I also made some progress with Cheaper Than Dirt. I sent both the CC company and CTD a link to another forum where I posted about this problem.

Cheaper Than Dirt has decided to refund my money. I thanked them for the proper resolution to this problem and should have my money back in two days when it clears.

KiserSose

07-28-12, 09:00

At least CTD is taking some proper action. Sad that they didn't do it by themselves, and needed to that bad press was being posted on a popular forum to change their tune.

The_War_Wagon

07-28-12, 09:14

Is BVAC a member of this - or any OTHER forum? I'd DEFINITELY post the OP's complaint and documentation THERE if they were.

I bought 100 rounds of their 69gr. JHP 5.56 a few months back to test. I'm glad now, that I didn't buy anymore! Anyone have any experience with that round, before I give it to a reloading buddy to break down and do over? :o

KiserSose

07-28-12, 11:10

Yea, I have yet to fire the BVAC that I have, will break most of it, and redo it myself. Besides mk318 was designed for 14.5 or 16 inch barrels I could use a slower powder to get better performance out of an 18 inch barrel.

KiserSose

07-31-12, 20:04

Got bored and busted out the calipers to do a little measuring..

Pulled out some boxes of ammo to do a little comparison on the seating depth of this BVAC compared to PMC, Barnes & Hornady. These are all in .223 Rem.
Min & Max Average Deviation
PMC Bronze 55gr FMJ (20 rnds) : 2.219 - 2.226 : ~ 0.007
Barnes VOR-TX 55gr TSX FB ( 20rnds) : 2.170 - 2.176 : ~ 0.006
Hornady Steel Match 75gr BTHP (50rdns) : 2.229 - 2.238 : ~ 0.009 - Two rounds measured 2.228, 2.241, but the average was in the min and max range, and fairly consistantly, and since I was measuring 50 rnds, I let it slide a little.

BVAC MK318 62gr OTMRP (20 rnds) : 2.198 - 2.215 : ~ 0.017 - Should note that the numbers seemed to be all over the place so I double checked quite a few readings..

Glad I did this, cause I was considering pulling the cartridges apart so I can inspect the ammo better, but I was disappointed to see these numbers. I will say I was measuring from the bullet tips, so the numbers might be a little off.. But the BVAC seemed to have the least consistency.

Charlie Don't Surf

10-26-12, 16:39

The 500rd loose box of .223 64g pointed soft points that I have shot of BVAC I was impressed with. They grouped barely noticeably worse than Hornady steel cased match 75g BTHP. Maybe it was just the lot; individual boxes of their heavier stuff wasn't impressive.

I did go through a loose box of 1k of their 9mm 115g fmjs. About 5% seemed to be fliers that didn't even hit paper. Acceptable? Probably not, even though it was about .15/round. Other than that 5%, it grouped ok.

250rd of their 150g .308 fmj did not give me any issues. Perhaps its a problem with their pistol ammo.

Never tried the .40.

Boarlander

10-14-13, 19:26

From what I have seen it is the fault of Glock barrels to handle soft lead bullets. I have just over a case of the 40 S&W BVAC and the copper is just a very thin plating and not a thick solid jacket. It is just not enough for the smoother Glock barrels with almost twice the twist rate to get a grip on. I have a g35 Gen 3 with all the custom Fulcrum trigger and Titanium stuff that I wish I did not spend all of that money on. Then I bought all of this BVAC stuff. So now I will have to get a Lone Wolf barrel. The tighter full coverage chamber reduces bulging which increases reload usage and the traditional riffling increase accuracy to farther targets. Hundreds of You-Tube shows can't be wrong.

Singlestack Wonder

10-14-13, 20:18

Iraqgunz

10-15-13, 04:40

So you resurrect a year old thread to blame the Glock and not the ammo. How very outstanding.

From what I have seen it is the fault of Glock barrels to handle soft lead bullets. I have just over a case of the 40 S&W BVAC and the copper is just a very thin plating and not a thick solid jacket. It is just not enough for the smoother Glock barrels with almost twice the twist rate to get a grip on. I have a g35 Gen 3 with all the custom Fulcrum trigger and Titanium stuff that I wish I did not spend all of that money on. Then I bought all of this BVAC stuff. So now I will have to get a Lone Wolf barrel. The tighter full coverage chamber reduces bulging which increases reload usage and the traditional riffling increase accuracy to farther targets. Hundreds of You-Tube shows can't be wrong.

bigedp51

10-15-13, 20:40

63 year old man with chronologically gifted eyesight, Rainier plated bullets and a Glock 22 with factory barrel, 50 rounds fired.
165 grain Rainier, 4.6 grains of 231, Winchester cases, target died of heart failure.

Start rolling your own ammo, if they don't shoot well you can only blame yourself.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/40SampW001_zpsfc7e7b54.jpg