View Full Version : Colt, Sig, and S&W AR Rifles
I'm looking to purchase an AR15 rifle in the near future and have my eye on three particular models. The three include Colt 6920, Sig M400, and S&W M&P 15 Sport. The Colt and Sig are about the same price while the S&W is a few hundred less.
This will be my first AR, but I want it to be my only AR that I will keep for life.
I am very strict on maintenance and this rifle will be well cared for. I want a quality firearm that is accurate, reliable, and well built.
Which would you choose and why? Should one be eliminated from the equation right away?
Magic_Salad0892
07-15-12, 18:46
I'm looking to purchase an AR15 rifle in the near future and have my eye on three particular models. The three include Colt 6920, Sig M400, and S&W M&P 15 Sport. The Colt and Sig are about the same price while the S&W is a few hundred less.
This will be my first AR, but I want it to be my only AR that I will keep for life.
I am very strict on maintenance and this rifle will be well cared for. I want a quality firearm that is accurate, reliable, and well built.
Which would you choose and why? Should one be eliminated from the equation right away?
Go for the Colt.
I'd go for it because Colt is guaranteed quality every time, and is 100% mil spec. There is no guess work. SIG's quality is laughable, and S&Ws from what I remember have a stupid barrel twist, and are not HPT MPI.
I'm looking to purchase an AR15 rifle in the near future and have my eye on three particular models. The three include Colt 6920, Sig M400, and S&W M&P 15 Sport. The Colt and Sig are about the same price while the S&W is a few hundred less.
This will be my first AR, but I want it to be my only AR that I will keep for life.
I am very strict on maintenance and this rifle will be well cared for. I want a quality firearm that is accurate, reliable, and well built.
Which would you choose and why? Should one be eliminated from the equation right away?
A quick search will tell you the Colt 6920 is the golden standard and is worth the $ all day over the other 2.
The Smith's 1:8 Melonite barrel has proven it self to be very accurate over all. Smith's also have a life time warranty on their firearms. The bolt in my M&P 15 OR has "MP" stamped on it.
I want it to be my only AR that I will keep for life.
Buy the one with the Pony on the side.
You will not regret your purchase.
Colt. It is the standard. It is also the gun that will command the highest re-sale.
C4
highlighter
07-15-12, 21:05
Check out LMT.
Colt will hold its value and it is a good Quality weapon to start out with
Bluedreaux
07-15-12, 22:07
My department recently purchased about 150 S&W ARs. Of those, 3 had triggers that worked only some of the time and two of those had burrs in the chamber that would snag cleaning patches or shave brass off of cases.
Small sample size but enough to make me think twice about buying or recommending one.
Get the colt you will not regret it. With the colt you will have one of the best money can buy. Only a very few will recommend one of those over colt. They are the un informed.
I'm looking to purchase an AR15 rifle in the near future and have my eye on three particular models. The three include Colt 6920, Sig M400, and S&W M&P 15 Sport. The Colt and Sig are about the same price while the S&W is a few hundred less.
This will be my first AR, but I want it to be my only AR that I will keep for life.
I am very strict on maintenance and this rifle will be well cared for. I want a quality firearm that is accurate, reliable, and well built.
Which would you choose and why? Should one be eliminated from the equation right away?
Buy the Colt. The reasons why are detailed at length in the knowledge base threads, esp the Comparison Chart. Be sure to read the explanation of features.
Welcome to M4C.
Bought a brand spanking new Colt M4(LE6920) Carbine here recently for $1059(after all the wonderful fees and taxes) and I'm extremely happy with it. I would highly recommend going with Colt. You can always put upgrades on it later, but it will hold its value a lot longer than the rest as is.
The Smith's 1:8 Melonite barrel has proven it self to be very accurate over all. Smith's also have a life time warranty on their firearms. The bolt in my M&P 15 OR has "MP" stamped on it.
The S&W isnt a bad gun by any means, but its not up to par with Colt at this time. And the s&w 'MP' stamped bolt has yet to be determined if it means hp/mpi tested or just a M&P brand stamp.
Wolf Spyder
07-16-12, 00:55
Dynasty, A few years back I was in your shoes. Like you, I did not know just how much I did not know. I asked a few questions... and I read a bunch of gun magazines (which is a huge mistake). Then I went out and purchased a Stag Lower and built my first AR. I have learned a lot since then, and looking back, I wish I had listened to the folks on this board a little more than I did.
There are two type of AR15's. First, there are the "Hard Use" tools, true go-to-war, fighting AR's. Then there are all the rest... these are the plinkers, the range toys, the light-duty posers. They look like a real "hard-use" AR but they are far from it. The manufacturers of these rifles cut corners and use softer steel, they don't test each and every part to the rigorous standards that the Military demands.
These tests are expensive, the more durable steels are expensive, so by cutting these corners the manufacturer can pass that savings on to you and sell those AR's for less. This is why Rock River, Bushmaster, DPMS, S&W and many more are less expensive than Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, & Noveske. When you buy a Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, or Noveske you are purchasing a true hard-use fighting tool. The others are not. In my opinion, they are a waist of time and money.
The "CHART" is your friend.
I have used my AR15 for several years, I have learned more about them, and I have come to realize that saving $200 or $300 up front on a cheaper "light-duty" AR15 is a mistake that can come back to bite you over and over again.
Listen to these guys, most of them know what they are talking about. Buy the Colt LE6920, or a BCM. Avoid the S&W.
filthy phil
07-16-12, 04:31
another vote for colt.
there is a comparo being done right now at glocktalk on a colt vs m&p using the same ammo, cleaning regimens, etc. the smith has a slight edge in accuracy
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1422995
I think indentifying what the rifle will be used for is important. Range use only? HD/SHTF? Ocaisional plinking with friends? Take pics to post on the internet? After determining the use of the rifle, what are your budget parameters? Research is going to be key, start on THIS website/forum. Don't be afraid to buy over the internet, just make sure its from a reputable dealer. Good luck. P.S. Smith has good products and the M&P Sport looks like a great deal. However, for $3-400 more, you can have the Colt 6920.
What Wolf Spyder said.
Also look around a bit don't just buy the first AR you see. After spending some time on here just reading I figured the cheapest option for me is just a simple no thrills AR and Colt was the cheapest out of those but I still couldn't afford the $1000 price tag. It took me a few weeks but I found a local gun store that was selling police trade in Colt A3's (6721 model) for a little over $600. Yes it wasn't shiny nor brand new. Lots of scratches and dirty inside. But I couldn't afford new, dirt can be cleaned and seriously who cares about scratches the rifle is not for collecting and "pretty" never won a gun fight. Besides it was going to end up looking that way anyhow.
I was able to get a quality rifle for less money then new-and-not-so-quality rifles go for.
Go for the Colt.
I'd go for it because Colt is guaranteed quality every time, and is 100% mil spec. There is no guess work. SIG's quality is laughable, and S&Ws from what I remember have a stupid barrel twist, and are not HPT MPI.
Yeah, I say that to myself every time I shoot mine. 2,000+ rounds through my M400 and no problems. Just awful! :rolleyes:
My 1st was a 16" S&W M&P15T. It was nice, nice rail and didn't give me any bit of problems. Then I got a 14.5" Noveske for a 2nd AR and the accuracy is worlds better, and way lighter.
These guys know what they are talking about here so i'd go Colt. Another option is BCM, always hear good things about them and may be able to put together something in your price range from them.
Another vote for Colt here.
No problems from my LE6920 (4000 rds thru it so far) or my BCM 16" Middy (4500 rds). Definitely quality rifles that I would put my life on.
Justin
Magic_Salad0892
07-17-12, 01:00
Yeah, I say that to myself every time I shoot mine. 2,000+ rounds through my M400 and no problems. Just awful! :rolleyes:
Ever shoot the SIG 55X clone chambered in 7.62x39mm?
Thanks for the input everyone. I'm leaning towards the Colt. It seems everyone praises the Colt for good reason.
I'm going to my local gun shop to check out a few 6920 models soon.
IMHO, I would go with a BCM blem lower, BCM BCG, BCM upper and assemble the two to have a top notch rifle for less than a grand from Grant.
IMHO, I would go with a BCM blem lower, BCM BCG, BCM upper and assemble the two to have a top notch rifle for less than a grand from Grant.
Go with Grant. I haven't bought a gun from him, but have picked up an Aim point and some other parts. Grant has good pricing great service and is a sponsor of the board.
On the topic of the Sig M400, I have one to use and abuse and will be reporting results. So far, assembly has exceeded expectations. Stay tuned.
Ever shoot the SIG 55X clone chambered in 7.62x39mm?
Same manufacturer but very different animal. Not a one for one comparo.
I just checked out Sig's gun at WalMart yesterday. Looks decent, has MOE furniture. Doesn't have an MP tested bolt, nor does it have an H buffer.
I own two Colts (LE6920, LE6920SOCOM) and a Sig M400.
I wish that I had purchased a 3rd Colt instead of the Sig. The Sig isn't a bad weapon, I just like my Colts better.
Here are some differences I found:
First, the Colts' BCG is the full auto type and the Sig's is semi. Also, the material of the carrier seems to be nicer on the two Colts. The Sig's isn't finished as nicely as the Colts'.
Second, I replaced the pistol grips on all three weapons, and the bolt used to fasten the Sig's pistol grip to the lower receiver was thinner and less "rugged" feeling compared to the ones used by te Colts.
Third, the Sig used an carbine buffer, not an H or H2 buffer. My LE6920 used an H and the SOCOM used an H2. Not a big deal, but I wanted to point out some of the differences.
Fourth, the Sig has an ambidextrous mag release, while the Colts do not.
Fifth, the Sig has quick release connectors built in on the lower receiver, while the Colts do not.
Sixth, the front sling attachment on the Sig hangs to the 6 o'clock position, while the one on the Colts point to 9 o'clock. I thought that was not well-thought out on Sig's part, since it wouldn't be that great to use a sling run through their front attachment and try to attach it to one of their rear integrated attachment points.
The fit and finish of the Sig were fine. The staking of the bolt was OK, although it didn't look quite as good as the Colts'.
I haven't beaten my rifles up, so I don't know how the Sig would stand up to any rough use. For just a trip to the range, and shooting targets, the Sig has worked fine. It is a good first AR for my wife and son, and when they prove they are responsible about maintenance and knowledgeable about troubleshooting, I'll get them something like a Colt.
I posted a comparison of the Sig M400 and the LE6920 some time ago. Here it is:
Both have an F marked front sight base.
Both have M4 feed ramps cut before anodizing.
Both have chromed chamber and bores.
Both have equal staking on the gas key and castle nut.
Colt has an M16 bolt carrier.
Sig has an enhanced AR15 bolt carrier.
Colt bolt is MP marked.
Sig bolt is not MP marked although Sig states their supplier MP tests all bolts, whether they are marked or not. *
Colt comes with an H buffer.
Sig comes with a standard carbine buffer.
Colt barrel is MP marked.
Sig barrel is not MP marked and Sig could not state if their barrel is MP tested. *
Colt barrel is HP tested.
Sig states all of their barrels are HP tested, whether or not marked. *
Colt barrel is button rifled.
Sig states their M400 barrel is cold hammer forged chrome moly vanadium meeting mil-spec. *
Colt has a standard mag release.
Sig has an ambi mag release.
Sig has a upper/lower tightening device in the lower, the Colt does not.
Sig has built-in sling point attachments in the lower, the Colt does not.
Sig has an extractor support in the barrel extension, Colt does not.
Sig has 6-position mil-spec diameter buffer tube, Colt has 4-position mil-spec tube.
Both have equally bad single stage triggers.
Out of the box, the Sig had no blemishes or marks and was cosmetically perfect, if that is important to you. The Colt had various nicks and dings from careless assembly, most notably around the trigger guard where the rear pin was installed, but also on the delta ring and on various spots on the upper receiver.
The Sig upper/lower fit is tight. There is no play whatsoever - either in the vertical or horizontal. The pins can be pushed out with your fingers. There is slop in the Colt that can be fixed substantially with an Accuwedge.
Both consistently eject to the 3:45 position with everything from cheap PMC Bronze and UMC ammo to NATO M193 and M855.
I can discern no practical difference in accuracy.
Both have been 100% reliable when using quality ammo.
Sig has a lifetime warranty, Colt one year.
*I spoke to Sig Sauer directly to determine this information. With patience, and insisting on speaking to folks who can answer these questions with authority, they will speak to you about the parts used on their guns – although they will not tell you who makes their components.
I've owned excellent guns from both companies, and have seen crap come from both, too. I would characterize the M400 as a good offering that seems to be put together well. I prize both my Sig and my Colt and at this point have no real preference for either one.
Here is a comparison of the gas key staking...
http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l590/RowlandParks/My%20Guns/004-7.jpg
Nice comparison, Rowland!
My Sig was about $165 less than my LE6920. From my observations, that price spread seemed pretty fair.
Buy the Colt. It has an awesome old school M4 profile barrel with a worthless M203 grenade launcher notch and the out of date carbine gas system. Or you could buy yourself a number of other brands that don't have the Colt name but are better in almost every way. Your choice.
I have a Colt M4 LE 6940 and it has been an amazing firearm. No issues whatsoever. I recommend Colt.
Mr Elbowseed
07-17-12, 23:56
isnt the MP sport the model that has no forward Assist and no dust cover
Buy the Colt. It has an awesome old school M4 profile barrel with a worthless M203 grenade launcher notch and the out of date carbine gas system. Or you could buy yourself a number of other brands that don't have the Colt name but are better in almost every way. Your choice.
That is a very uniformed post. I would love to hear which brands are better in almost every way.
That is a very uniformed post. I would love to hear which brands are better in almost every way.
Daniel Defense, BCM, to name a few and don't forget that with the vast array of quality parts available today the sky is the limit if you want to build your own. As things progress in the world of AR's that little horsey on the side of the receiver is starting to lose its signifigance. I'm not saying that Colt's are bad, on the contrary, but there are plenty of better choices out there.
Daniel Defense, BCM, to name a few and don't forget that with the vast array of quality parts available today the sky is the limit if you want to build your own. As things progress in the world of AR's that little horsey on the side of the receiver is starting to lose its signifigance. I'm not saying that Colt's are bad, on the contrary, but there are plenty of better choices out there.
Well at least you didnt name rra or stag so thats a good sign. Most would argue BCM and DD are built to the same quality of colt, it would be hard to honestly say they were better. Colt 6920 isnt the "best" out there, but for the price point it is the best value and is considered to be the gold standard on the market
If Colt is milspec and has a button rifled barrel, wouldn't hammer forged barrels therefore be not milspec?
Magic_Salad0892
07-18-12, 04:51
If Colt is milspec and has a button rifled barrel, wouldn't hammer forged barrels therefore be not milspec?
Nope. CHF is not mil-spec.
At least in the US. Canada spec calls for CHF. All the Diemaco/Colt Canada guns are CHF.
US .mil turned it down when Colt proposed it.
If Colt is milspec and has a button rifled barrel, wouldn't hammer forged barrels therefore be not milspec?
No it's not but it exceeds the mil-spec.
There are knowledge base threads that provide differences in detail, including the metallurgy. OP has his response, and this thread can die now.
US .mil turned it down when Colt proposed it.
source?
No it's not but it exceeds the mil-spec.
What does? HF barrels? Not according to the test Colt ran. The Colt Canada HF barrels were equal in every way to the standard barrels that Colt US uses.
C4
What does? HF barrels? Not according to the test Colt ran. The Colt Canada HF barrels were equal in every way to the standard barrels that Colt US uses.
C4
So therefore, CHF barrels are pretty much a marketing gimmick and provide no inherent benefit while costing more money?
So therefore, CHF barrels are pretty much a marketing gimmick and provide no inherent benefit while costing more money?
You took what C4 said out of context and you know it...
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
You took what C4 said out of context and you know it...
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
No I'm making an assumption based on that post, then verifying it by asking a question.
If colt hf barrels provide no benefit over colt button rifled barrels,then it stands to reason that paying extra money for a hf barrel is a waste of money, all other things being equal.
Even filthy 14, iirc, is button rifled, not hf.
So therefore, CHF barrels are pretty much a marketing gimmick and provide no inherent benefit while costing more money?
Well, not necessarily. Personally, I believe that Colt's standard barrels are the best out there and is why you typically see 1" groups out of them (if they are free floated).
I think many companies standard barrels are below Colt's, but their HF offerings are equal.
C4
I wrote: "Sig states their M400 barrel is cold hammer forged chrome moly vanadium meeting mil-spec."
I intended that to mean that the barrel is materially mil-spec, not that the production method was mil-spec. That sentence was poorly constructed and I apologize if it, in any way, contributed to the incivility that followed.
Thanks for all the input everyone.
I went with the Colt :D
Colt lost most of the Goverment contracts decades ago to FN. They still supply the M-4 for now,but Colt is not the last word in a AR rifle anymore. There is better. Colts are no better than the other legal semi-clones. Colt Holding company is not the real Colt anymore from under the Colt Dome.
Go for the Colt.
I'd go for it because Colt is guaranteed quality every time, and is 100% mil spec.
Besides for the lack of that whole auto / burst capability.
:-) Just bustin' balls.
Colt Holding company is not the real Colt anymore from under the Colt Dome.
What the hell does that even mean?
Colt lost most of the Goverment contracts decades ago to FN. They still supply the M-4 for now,but Colt is not the last word in a AR rifle anymore. There is better. Colts are no better than the other legal semi-clones. Colt Holding company is not the real Colt anymore from under the Colt Dome.
Isn't the Colt Holding Co. the parent to the Colt Manufacturing Co.?
Colts are no better than the other legal semi-clones.
Bullshit.
Colt lost most of the Goverment contracts decades ago to FN. They still supply the M-4 for now,but Colt is not the last word in a AR rifle anymore. There is better. Colts are no better than the other legal semi-clones. Colt Holding company is not the real Colt anymore from under the Colt Dome.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
FN does pump out a lot of guns for the DoD/Mil now, but they are building off from Colt's 'recipe' aka the TDP. The FN's are built exactly like the Colt's in terms of quality -- just in a different freakin' building.
Colt is not the last word in the AR world because there are other manufacturers that use the exact same quality standards such as BCM, DD, and LMT.
The Sig M400 is a decent rifle but for $900, you can do a lot better. I'm not even sure if it's up to the quality standards of the 'lesser' guys like Spike's Tactical and PSA.
Congrats on the Colt, Dynasty. My LE6920 is all that I'll ever need in an AR. I'm sure you'll be equally pleased with yours.
Magic_Salad0892
07-27-12, 09:29
source?
IIRC I read that from something KevinB, or Larry Vickers or somebody wrote. I'll look for it. I remember it being an SME who said it, here on M4C.
It was also mentioned that Colt had submitted an upgraded extractor, and something else. But I don't remember.
Fuzzy-Reticle
07-27-12, 12:42
Nothing wrong with a Colt.
Nothing wrong with a Colt.
A lot of civilian shooters don't prefer the carbine-length gas system on 16" barrels, nor the M203 cut/barrel profile.
And many still believe that button rifling is inherently inferior (which included me until this thread), and Colt apparently only uses button rifling for US-made weapons.
And a lot of people like long (11-13") free floating rails, which is pretty much impossible on a Colt unless you remove the front sight block or use a carbine cut-out rail.
Pistol Shooter
07-27-12, 16:00
Thanks for all the input everyone.
I went with the Colt :D
Great choice. Congratulations and post some pics of your new weapon. :D
The_War_Wagon
07-27-12, 16:04
Colt.
Buy.
Shoot.
Repeat. :cool:
I love my Colt, but I love my new Sig 516 as much. Zero quality issues. Allows me to judge for myself DI vs. Piston. The wide generalization here that all Sigs suck is laughable.
I love my Colt, but I love my new Sig 516 as much. Zero quality issues. Allows me to judge for myself DI vs. Piston. The wide generalization here that all Sigs suck is laughable.
Glad your sample size of one trumps all the other experiences here.
I love my Colt, but I love my new Sig 516 as much. Zero quality issues. Allows me to judge for myself DI vs. Piston. The wide generalization here that all Sigs suck is laughable.
I guess LAV and all the other real SME's can suck a dick then huh? Gimme a break dude....
At least s&w now makes a mid-length gas system, 5R barrel too boot.
jonconsiglio
07-28-12, 00:35
And a lot of people like long (11-13") free floating rails, which is pretty much impossible on a Colt unless you remove the front sight block or use a carbine cut-out rail.
...which is pretty much impossible with a mid length as well if using anything longer than a 9" hand guard and impossible with a rifle gas system if using anything over 12" then...
I guess LAV and all the other real SME's can suck a dick then huh? Gimme a break dude....
Tried to do a fairly exhaustive search to understand your vulgar comment. Couldn't find where Vickers said Sig ARs suck. Feel free to post a link so he can educate me please.
Tried to do a fairly exhaustive search to understand your vulgar comment. Couldn't find where Vickers said Sig ARs suck. Feel free to post a link so he can educate me please.
It was directed at the piston portion of the post, shoulda clarified that
Millerw289
07-31-12, 08:17
I just bought my first ar. I went with the smith m&p. I held the colt le6920 but I didn't like the front sight post and the finish was TERRIBLE. The m&p was flawless and had magpul combat sights. Love my m&p.
I love my Colt, but I love my new Sig 516 as much. Zero quality issues. Allows me to judge for myself DI vs. Piston. The wide generalization here that all Sigs suck is laughable.
Right, here's the scenario: 2 day training shoot, 1500+ rounds. 85 degrees plus, add occassional rain. SIG 556 ran flawless both days without clean up on end of day one. The majority of non-SIG rifles needed work done. No, that's not the new 516, but the SIGs are pretty damn good.
Just had a couple of guys tell me in the build area that I'm building a crappy "kit rifle" as it will have a DEZ barrel and JP Enterprises upper/lower receiver/LPK/FCG, and that compared to a Colt it will be a failure. Neither DEZ nor JP are sponsors here. Coincidence.
Shoot your own, train your own path as well.
I just bought my first ar. I went with the smith m&p. I held the colt le6920 but I didn't like the front sight post and the finish was TERRIBLE. The m&p was flawless and had magpul combat sights. Love my m&p.
Colt has never worried too much about the fit and finish. If you want a combat rifle buy the Colt 6920. I'll leave it at that...
I held the colt le6920 but I didn't like the front sight post and the finish was TERRIBLE.
As someone who had others, and then a Colt, I can tell you that you don't buy a Colt for fit/finish. It's what's inside. (A hint: Colt also test swaps parts to ensure proper specifications were followed as a final check, hence a few nicks here and there - I'll take that as a final QC.)
Right, here's the scenario: 2 day training shoot, 1500+ rounds. 85 degrees plus, add occassional rain. SIG 556 ran flawless both days without clean up on end of day one. The majority of non-SIG rifles needed work done. No, that's not the new 516, but the SIGs are pretty damn good.
Just had a couple of guys tell me in the build area that I'm building a crappy "kit rifle" as it will have a DEZ barrel and JP Enterprises upper/lower receiver/LPK/FCG, and that compared to a Colt it will be a failure. Neither DEZ nor JP are sponsors here. Coincidence.
Shoot your own, train your own path as well.
I think you ASSume to much when you say that people don't like company XYZ because they don't sponsor the forum.
Most people don't pay any attention who sponsors for the and if you hadn't noticed, Colt doesn't sponsor it either. ;)
From my experience JP products are just fine. They are 100% geared towards the gun game community though and often times their stuff is on the high side (cost wise).
C4
polymorpheous
07-31-12, 09:04
Right, here's the scenario: 2 day training shoot, 1500+ rounds. 85 degrees plus, add occassional rain. SIG 556 ran flawless both days without clean up on end of day one. The majority of non-SIG rifles needed work done. No, that's not the new 516, but the SIGs are pretty damn good.
Just had a couple of guys tell me in the build area that I'm building a crappy "kit rifle" as it will have a DEZ barrel and JP Enterprises upper/lower receiver/LPK/FCG, and that compared to a Colt it will be a failure. Neither DEZ nor JP are sponsors here. Coincidence.
Shoot your own, train your own path as well.
You take things way too personally.
Just had a couple of guys tell me in the build area that I'm .
I read that one.
That's NOT what you're being told.
Keep your thread in your thread.
I read that one.
That's NOT what you're being told.
Keep your thread in your thread.
Let's see: after I stated I'd be putting JP Enterprises LPK and FCG parts into a JP stripped lower with their matched upper, and that I would not be buying a complete Colt or BCM complete lower- this build would suddenly be a "kit rifle" that is worthless for defense. I lost track of the # of times I was told to just get a Colt, and be done with it.
So, the build area is for referring people to Colt and BCM, but not answering the one rifle specific question I asked about the upper-to barrel build?
Now, JP has nothing but units for the "gun game community"? Sweet, thanks for the advice.
fallenangelhim
07-31-12, 22:19
I am a big Sig head. I love Sig firearms. I think they are all awesome. I've been fortunate to own 3-4 Sigs and they've all been perfect.
As far as a Sig M400, I would trust it.
I currently own a Colt 6940.
I would agree to the statement that Colt is a battle rifle and it is what is inside that counts. Sig rifles are pretty. I know their pistols are great, but I am not sure about about their rifles. Over at SigForums the team raves about their 556 and 551 line of rifles.
Again, Colt = proven battle rifle, not pretty beauty queen.
You say "just get a Colt and be done with it" like it's a bad thing.... Why? Colts are incredible rifles, and are THE standard.
irishhitman
08-01-12, 15:58
Colt, LMT, KAC, = Quality.
I can not agree on the 551 & 556.. the are way to front heavy and not as accurate as the M4 platforms out there.
Glad your sample size of one trumps all the other experiences here.
That's better than a sample size of 0, which is the experience that a lot of people have with any particular brand that gets bashed.
I think you ASSume to much when you say that people don't like company XYZ because they don't sponsor the forum.
Most people don't pay any attention who sponsors for the and if you hadn't noticed, Colt doesn't sponsor it either. ;)
From my experience JP products are just fine. They are 100% geared towards the gun game community though and often times their stuff is on the high side (cost wise).
C4
Colt isn't....but DD and BCM are. If i were to ask now, what a good rifle would be to buy, i would be told colt. If i asked the same question 3 years ago, i would have been bombarded with DD or BCM. For every 1 vote that went to colt, i would have gotten 4 or 5 for bcm/dd. Now it's the exactly opposite. I wonder why? Probably because during those years, bcm and dd have gotten so much publicity from this board that their production can't keep up with demand and now by recommending colt, it's actually doing bcm and dd a favor...because colt CAN keep up with demand.
polymorpheous
08-01-12, 16:57
Colt isn't....but DD and BCM are. If i were to ask now, what a good rifle would be to buy, i would be told colt. If i asked the same question 3 years ago, i would have been bombarded with DD or BCM. For every 1 vote that went to colt, i would have gotten 4 or 5 for bcm/dd. Now it's the exactly opposite. I wonder why? Probably because during those years, bcm and dd have gotten so much publicity from this board that their production can't keep up with demand and now by recommending colt, it's actually doing bcm and dd a favor...because colt CAN keep up with demand.
Or perhaps because Colt stepped up their consumer offerings with different models.
They saw the likes of Bravo Company and Daniel Defense gobble up a good portion of that market.
Or perhaps because Colt stepped up their consumer offerings with different models.
They saw the likes of Bravo Company and Daniel Defense gobble up a good portion of that market.
no, no not really. Nothing changed about the 6920 and 6720, but suddenly people switched from recommending bcm/dd to those models. Not to mention colt still doesn't make a mid length rifle. There were endless amounts of posts and threads stating the benefits of mid length over carbine. Yet, now there's rarely any mention of gas system when recommending a rifle, because colt only makes 1 gas system length. (on 16" barreled rifles...i know there's going to be some jackass out there at says they make rifle length gas system on 20" rifles...yeah no shit.)
polymorpheous
08-01-12, 18:05
There isn't any quantifiable data that midlength gas systems have an advantage over a carbine length gas system.
All opinion regarding this is purely subjective.
Colt uppers have correctly sized gas ports.
My friend has a LMT 14.5" upper which shoots softer than my midlength.
Again, purely subjective.
Colts offerings are to attract civilian consumers.
The 6920 hasn't changed in it's operating system, gas system length, quality control, etc.
What has changed is the number of factory configurations available for the civilian shooter for the model 6920.
The price point of these models has been reduced as well.
3 years ago you couldn't get a Colt for the price of a Bravo Company carbine. (BCM lowers weren't as readily available then either)
Now a 6920 can be had for near $1000 and be found at your local Wal-Mart.
There isn't any quantifiable data that midlength gas systems have an advantage over a carbine length gas system.
All opinion regarding this is purely subjective.
Colt uppers have correctly sized gas ports.
My friend has a LMT 14.5" upper which shoots softer than my midlength.
Again, purely subjective.
Colts offerings are to attract civilian consumers.
The 6920 hasn't changed in it's operating system, gas system length, quality control, etc.
What has changed is the number of factory configurations available for the civilian shooter for the model 6920.
The price point of these models has been reduced as well.
3 years ago you couldn't get a Colt for the price of a Bravo Company carbine. (BCM lowers weren't as readily available then either)
Now a 6920 can be had for near $1000 and be found at your local Wal-Mart.
3 years ago a 6920 was $1100. A $100 price drop suddenly made everyone switch gears and went back to colt?
As far as the benefits of mid length over carbine. Doesn't really matter what the actual differences are. The entire point is that gas system was the reasoning why everyone, including dealers and mods on this forum was recommending bcm over colt.
3 years ago a 6920 was $1100. A $100 price drop suddenly made everyone switch gears and went back to colt?
As far as the benefits of mid length over carbine. Doesn't really matter what the actual differences are. The entire point is that gas system was the reasoning why everyone, including dealers and mods on this forum was recommending bcm over colt.
Honestly i think alot of it was DD/BCM was the "cool new kid" on the block. They were one of the first options that could truly compete with Colt when it comes to quality and price point. I think now the New Kid phase has passed and many have realized there is nothing wrong with a good boringly reliable Colt.
I think the same mindset can be applied with the mid-length gas system.
Colt isn't....but DD and BCM are. If i were to ask now, what a good rifle would be to buy, i would be told colt. If i asked the same question 3 years ago, i would have been bombarded with DD or BCM. For every 1 vote that went to colt, i would have gotten 4 or 5 for bcm/dd. Now it's the exactly opposite. I wonder why? Probably because during those years, bcm and dd have gotten so much publicity from this board that their production can't keep up with demand and now by recommending colt, it's actually doing bcm and dd a favor...because colt CAN keep up with demand.
Decreasing demand for a company's product is not doing them a favor.
Also, if you ask now what would be a good rifle to buy, you would probably be told Colt, DD, BCM or Noveske.
***blah blah blah blah***
SWATcop556
08-02-12, 00:52
10-76 from one cop to another, don't shit in someone's house and expect them to like it. Keep your bitching to yourself. Shit talking a Mod won't fly. Take it to PM or contact staff.
Wow, quite the conspiracy theory and ****ed-up mis-remembering of history.
RogerinTPA
08-02-12, 06:21
How bout we let folks like the OP, find their own information by doing research (Pointing them to, then letting them read all appropriate stickies), then letting them draw their own conclusions. It get's tiring to read how someone claims they did research, then ask questions which clearly leads one to conclude that there was no research done at all. It's a given they'll be back with other threads about (lube, buffers, FCGs, or how it ran "flawless" shooting 100 rounds in the dirt) info readily available if they'd just use the orange search button. They might just learning something in the process. Just sayin'.
Colt isn't....but DD and BCM are. If i were to ask now, what a good rifle would be to buy, i would be told colt. If i asked the same question 3 years ago, i would have been bombarded with DD or BCM. For every 1 vote that went to colt, i would have gotten 4 or 5 for bcm/dd. Now it's the exactly opposite. I wonder why? Probably because during those years, bcm and dd have gotten so much publicity from this board that their production can't keep up with demand and now by recommending colt, it's actually doing bcm and dd a favor...because colt CAN keep up with demand.
People have always recommended Colt (nothing has changed).
Anyway you slice it, all three brands are quality and the buyer wins any which way.
When people fixate on such small things as this, they are missing the bigger picture. That is to go out and actually shoot their gun, get training and be proficient with it.
C4
no, no not really. Nothing changed about the 6920 and 6720, but suddenly people switched from recommending bcm/dd to those models. Not to mention colt still doesn't make a mid length rifle. There were endless amounts of posts and threads stating the benefits of mid length over carbine. Yet, now there's rarely any mention of gas system when recommending a rifle, because colt only makes 1 gas system length. (on 16" barreled rifles...i know there's going to be some jackass out there at says they make rifle length gas system on 20" rifles...yeah no shit.)
There is actually discussions on the fact that middy gas systems have no TDP (standardization) which means that their GP size can be all over the place and is why you can get a gun that is over gassed.
If you have a proper GP on a carbine (like Colt), there is little to no difference to that of a middy gas system. What attracts people (mostly) to the mid-length gas system is the fact that you can easily have a longer rail. This of course can be done with a Colt as well, but just takes more effort.
As more and more people become "enlightened" on this topic, they realize that recommending an AR with a carbine gas system is just fine.
C4
There is actually discussions on the fact that middy gas systems have no TDP (standardization) which means that their GP size can be all over the place and is why you can get a gun that is over gassed.
If you have a proper GP on a carbine (like Colt), there is little to no difference to that of a middy gas system. What attracts people (mostly) to the mid-length gas system is the fact that you can easily have a longer rail. This of course can be done with a Colt as well, but just takes more effort.
As more and more people become "enlightened" on this topic, they realize that recommending an AR with a carbine gas system is just fine.
C4
Is colt's 16" gas port the same size as their 14.5" gas port?
Is colt's 16" gas port the same size as their 14.5" gas port?
I believe it is. Haven't checked in years though (as I just don't see 14.5" barrels).
C4
I believe it is. Haven't checked in years though (as I just don't see 14.5" barrels).
C4
If true, does that equate to over gassing at 16"? Is it so minor that it doesn't matter?
If true, does that equate to over gassing at 16"? Is it so minor that it doesn't matter?
I typically like 16" barrels with carbine gas systems to have a GP size of around .061. So we are talking about such a small amount that I don't think it matters.
C4
I typically like 16" barrels with carbine gas systems to have a GP size of around .061. So we are talking about such a small amount that I don't think it matters.
C4
What does the TDP say about the gas port size of 14.5" barrels with carbine gas systems? Or if not the TDP, what do reputable manufacturers (Colt, BCM, etc) use?
What does the TDP say about the gas port size of 14.5" barrels with carbine gas systems? Or if not the TDP, what do reputable manufacturers (Colt, BCM, etc) use?
There is another thread floating around regarding this, interesting read if you are into that kind of thing.
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-88097.html
When people fixate on such small things as this, they are missing the bigger picture. That is to go out and actually shoot their gun, get training and be proficient with it.
bingo-****in-bango.
This is why I get so assed-up at the jackassery of the "critique my first 'build'" threads, and the idiocy that follows on them.
Go get a basic factory gun and shoot the shit out of it. Modify as you reach the mechanical limits of the gun as your skill and ability increases.
The Colt 6720 is the single smartest first-time-buyer carbine on the market. It is short enough, and long enough. It is light enough, and heavy enough. It has a flattop for the first natural addition (a red dot sight) but is perfectly serviceable with an iron sight as well. Every single part is virtually ubiquitous or can be easily replaced if needed (due to breakage, not wild hairs) with a part that is ubiquitous. It's operation is simple, and as intended for the platform, and spare parts are available everywhere. It will take standard mags, fancy mags, stupid mags and it will feed fancy ammo or the "garbage" like Wolf and Bear.
The only real shortcoming on the 6720 is the sling attachment options. and in fact, if they would ship the gun with the front side-sling attachment, even that would be an almost total non-issue.
With a safe full of guns, personal and T&E, with everything from old-busted to new-hotness, I often think of just shit-canning them all and buying a 6720, Aimpoint Pro, side-sling swivel, and MRE SOB sling, and "making due" with all that boring old crap that's apparently totally insufficient for all those pros on the internets that "need" 15" rails, $300 triggers, $2k scopes, etc.
You come to a point where you realize that all that silly shit doesn't matter. It may be nice to have, but even the magnitude of said niceness is blown way the hell out of proportion. When I see guys with 12 lb nd $3k ARs that can't shoot a 1-5 in 4 seconds or a BRM with all 10s, I wonder what they think all that money and weight is getting them.
What does the TDP say about the gas port size of 14.5" barrels with carbine gas systems? Or if not the TDP, what do reputable manufacturers (Colt, BCM, etc) use?
The TDP calls for a .063 GP.
C4
bingo-****in-bango.
This is why I get so assed-up at the jackassery of the "critique my first 'build'" threads, and the idiocy that follows on them.
Go get a basic factory gun and shoot the shit out of it. Modify as you reach the mechanical limits of the gun as your skill and ability increases.
The Colt 6720 is the single smartest first-time-buyer carbine on the market. It is short enough, and long enough. It is light enough, and heavy enough. It has a flattop for the first natural addition (a red dot sight) but is perfectly serviceable with an iron sight as well. Every single part is virtually ubiquitous or can be easily replaced if needed (due to breakage, not wild hairs) with a part that is ubiquitous. It's operation is simple, and as intended for the platform, and spare parts are available everywhere. It will take standard mags, fancy mags, stupid mags and it will feed fancy ammo or the "garbage" like Wolf and Bear.
The only real shortcoming on the 6720 is the sling attachment options. and in fact, if they would ship the gun with the front side-sling attachment, even that would be an almost total non-issue.
With a safe full of guns, personal and T&E, with everything from old-busted to new-hotness, I often think of just shit-canning them all and buying a 6720, Aimpoint Pro, side-sling swivel, and MRE SOB sling, and "making due" with all that boring old crap that's apparently totally insufficient for all those pros on the internets that "need" 15" rails, $300 triggers, $2k scopes, etc.
You come to a point where you realize that all that silly shit doesn't matter. It may be nice to have, but even the magnitude of said niceness is blown way the hell out of proportion. When I see guys with 12 lb nd $3k ARs that can't shoot a 1-5 in 4 seconds or a BRM with all 10s, I wonder what they think all that money and weight is getting them.
Ok new logic of the year award lol. If you do shitcan all of your guns let me know, I'll risk divorce and take one of those 6933s off your hands :)
Ca$hOutlaw
01-05-13, 16:17
The Sig M400 is a decent rifle but............ I'm not even sure if it's up to the quality standards of the 'lesser' guys like Spike's Tactical and PSA.
So where exactly does the sig m400 rank, and how could $900 do better spec wise?
No contest there. Get the Colt.
Yeah, get the Colt......if you can still find one.
silverdog6
01-05-13, 21:27
Yet another vote for the Colt. I've had no issues with mine, mags, ammo ect, it's all good...
bingo-****in-bango.
This is why I get so assed-up at the jackassery of the "critique my first 'build'" threads, and the idiocy that follows on them.
Go get a basic factory gun and shoot the shit out of it. Modify as you reach the mechanical limits of the gun as your skill and ability increases.
The Colt 6720 is the single smartest first-time-buyer carbine on the market. It is short enough, and long enough. It is light enough, and heavy enough. It has a flattop for the first natural addition (a red dot sight) but is perfectly serviceable with an iron sight as well. Every single part is virtually ubiquitous or can be easily replaced if needed (due to breakage, not wild hairs) with a part that is ubiquitous. It's operation is simple, and as intended for the platform, and spare parts are available everywhere. It will take standard mags, fancy mags, stupid mags and it will feed fancy ammo or the "garbage" like Wolf and Bear.
The only real shortcoming on the 6720 is the sling attachment options. and in fact, if they would ship the gun with the front side-sling attachment, even that would be an almost total non-issue.
With a safe full of guns, personal and T&E, with everything from old-busted to new-hotness, I often think of just shit-canning them all and buying a 6720, Aimpoint Pro, side-sling swivel, and MRE SOB sling, and "making due" with all that boring old crap that's apparently totally insufficient for all those pros on the internets that "need" 15" rails, $300 triggers, $2k scopes, etc.
You come to a point where you realize that all that silly shit doesn't matter. It may be nice to have, but even the magnitude of said niceness is blown way the hell out of proportion. When I see guys with 12 lb nd $3k ARs that can't shoot a 1-5 in 4 seconds or a BRM with all 10s, I wonder what they think all that money and weight is getting them.
So true....I can shoot my "cheaper" AR way better than most with their super fancy ones....its a tool and its only as good as the person behind it. That is not to say higher priced-higher quality ARs arent better...because they are...no argument there...
Regarding the finish on Colt ARs, a few years ago I had the chance to visit a cousin who works for the Colt Custom Shop. He builds the Colt Single Action Army, Frontier Six Shooter and now the New Frontier.
After touring his work area, he got us passes to tour Colt Defense, also in West Hartford. It was an amazing place, but I was surpised to see barrels in piles, upper and lower receivers in piles. These were the 6920 LE Carbines before assembly. These parts are then placed in racks in front of each assembler. They just pull from the rack and a worker begins his part of the assembly, then it gets sent down to someone else for continued assembly. I saw no concern for parts rubbing against each other, but I saw no rough handling either.
As has been noted, the Colt building process is designed for weapons of war, not for something pretty to look at.
No contest there. Get the Colt.
Yeah, get the Colt......if you can still find one.
He got the Colt weeks, if not months, ago.
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