View Full Version : trigger question
what are the different types of triggers and what are the advantages of one over the other?
Single stage vs 2 stage
Adjustable vs fixed
Short reset vs standard reset
It is all personal preference. I like 2 stage triggers myself. My last two were from ArmaLite and they have been great.
fallenromeo
07-17-12, 10:44
As long as they both work the advantage is what you make it. If you don't like a 2 stage feel then there is no advantage over a standard GI trigger to you. It is all about what you prefer. I prefer the feel of a 2 stage personally. I know several guys who don't like my Geissele and prefer their single stage.
wetidlerjr
07-17-12, 13:42
Click here>>> Types of Triggers (https://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=types+of+triggers+&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D109221&ref=www.m4carbine.net%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Fs%3D%26daysprune%3D%26f%3D3&ss=63j3969j2)
:D
Click here>>> Types of Triggers (https://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=types+of+triggers+&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D109221&ref=www.m4carbine.net%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Fs%3D%26daysprune%3D%26f%3D3&ss=63j3969j2)
:D
thanks
There are basically 3 types of trigger out there as pertains to the AR.
Single Stage
- (eg stock trigger, JP trigger).
Advantages:
Trigger is "fixed", ie, there (should) be no real perceivable movement until the trigger breaks, just an increase in pressure until it does. A "pure" trigger, if you will.
Trigger reset is usually very short, very positive - great for extremely high speed shooting.
Disadvantages:
In a combat environment, there needs to be a reasonable amount of "safety" pull weight built into the trigger (at least 4.5lbs is the oft-quoted figure). For longer range more precise shooting, this built in weight/safety factor can be detrimental as pulling through the weight often manifests itself as perceivable "creep", "grit" or simply the fact you have to pull through the whole weight takes time and pressure, which can influence your shot. True target/competition rifles use a single stage trigger which is extremely light - a hair trigger. In an all purpose combat rifle, used under stressful situations, hair triggers are not what you want.
Two Stage
-(eg, most of the Geissele line, KAC 2 stage, etc)
Advantages:
- With a two stage trigger, when you pull the trigger, the "first stage" pull perceptibly moves the trigger to the start of the second stage, which is a defined "wall". Taking a Geissele SSA as an example, the total trigger pull weight is 4.5lbs. The first stage takeup yields about 2.5lbs to the wall - leaving the second stage on about a 2lb break. So when you are at the wall, you are essentially operating the equivalent of a 2lb single stage trigger with a very sharp break vs a 4.5lb single stage trigger. In other words, the two stage affords you your "combat" safety margin of at least 4.5lbs, but when loaded, you are on a 2lb break - so its the best of both worlds, one could say.
- The fact that there is the tactile movement of the first stage can act as a warning you are pulling the trigger under a high intensity situation - with a non moving single stage, you don't get such a warning (and yes, before anyone says it, your finger shouldn't be pulling the trigger until you intend to fire....but it is well known no plan survives contact with the enemy when the pressure is on).
Disadvantages:
In short range extremely high speed shooting, the two stage can be considered something of a hindrance, as it is not the on/off switch as per a single stage. In practice, the actual shot isn't so much the problem with a good two stage as it is easy to blow through both stages in one go - the problem is more the reset. Two stage triggers, due to the degree of movement they have, tend to have a less positive reset than a single stage. While this can be trained out 99%, during extremely high speed drills, there is a more of a risk you can "bobble" a 2 stage trigger, i.e. try to pull it again before it is reset. The longer pull vs a good single stage, combined with the less defined reset can cause in increase in your split times.
Hybrid
(eg. Geissele S3G, SD3G)
Advantages:
Developed for 3 Gunning, these triggers offer a tactile moving trigger as per a 2 stage....but there is no defined "wall". You simply pull the trigger, it moves, keep on pulling, it "surprise" breaks". The advantages of this is that you get an extremely smooth trigger pull and crisp shot break. With these you also get a nice reset, and as such, they are an extremely smooth high speed trigger. Very good for rapid follow up shots, *arguably* even better than a single stage, depending on preference.
Disadvantages:
The lack of a perceived wall or breaking point could be considered a hindrance to more precision oriented shooting. Not as bad as it sounds given these triggers are very light....but therein lies the other problem with these for use in a "real world" environment. They are light, and the lack of defined break means if your finger is on that trigger its likely to go. Therefore, more than any other, this one is a special purpose gaming trigger only, IMO.
All that said, at the end of the day, training and personal preference always gazumps the type of trigger you use. My personal preference is the two stage - partly because I was born'n'raised on 2 stage triggers, but also because I place very high value on the long range/small target precision shot ability. To me, this outweighs the potential shortcomings during high speed drills (as outlined above). Others think differently - and there really is no right and wrong. At the end of the day, you can only really know where you stand on it after countless rounds downrange. A skilled rifleman will be able to use all types very effectively, and that skill is always primary over trigger type.
IMO...the type of trigger selected by the shooter should be germane to the activity the rifle is designated as being tasked to.
'combat'/LE/SD-HD are hi stress, adrenaline driven, life-or-death, decisions to make, activities that require a trigger that's not activated as easily as is a target/competition/hunting environment.
when under stress, even a 6-7 lb trigger feels light...
i believe each person seeks and finds his own level of comfort, accuracy and ease of operation with each rifle/carbine he operates.
The stock trigger does have a significant amount of travel (creep) before it breaks.
Geisselle defines their trigger as, say 2.5 lbs & 2 lbs. The reality is that it takes 2.5 lbs to take up the slack of the first stage and an additional 2 lbs to break the shot, requiring a total of 4.5 lbs. It is no different than applying 2.5 lbs to a single stage trigger before applying the additional 2 lbs before breaking the shot at a total of 4.5 lbs.
In my experience, the Geiselle trigger is no slower mechanically than the stock trigger. Travel and reset are about the same. (Some find the Geisselle slower which I attribute to it's different feel.)
The Geissele 3 gun may be a hybrid in feel, but it's not mechanically. It's simply the two stage trigger with the same weight for both stages. It acts just like the stock trigger but with less pull weight and smoother travel.
Which leads me to the thought that the stock trigger may really be a two stage trigger but with both stages being of the same heavy weight. I'll have to study on it more before drawing any conclusions, however
wetidlerjr
07-18-12, 16:04
...Which leads me to the thought that the stock trigger may really be a two stage trigger but with both stages being of the same heavy weight. I'll have to study on it more before drawing any conclusions, however
I would hope so. :blink:
Geisselle defines their trigger as, say 2.5 lbs & 2 lbs. The reality is that it takes 2.5 lbs to take up the slack of the first stage and an additional 2 lbs to break the shot, requiring a total of 4.5 lbs. It is no different than applying 2.5 lbs to a single stage trigger before applying the additional 2 lbs before breaking the shot at a total of 4.5 lbs.
I disagree. As designed, there really ought to be *no* slack, or "takeup" in a single stage trigger at all (This is different to creep). Some rifles there is some....but this isn't a stage, its a tolerance stacking/component/springs issue. Taking up this slack just gets you to the point where the trigger *ought* to be starting out anyway.
There is also more to it than just pull weight; sear geometry being the big thing. When you are at the second stage "wall" on a Geissele, it is well defined and will break after the additional 2lbs with no *discernible* creep, as there is very little sear engagement remaining (you can split hairs between an SSA and an SSA-E for example, but either way, its a very good break). Your first stage 2.5lb pull will get you, reliably and every single time, to that 2lb "hair" breakpoint, and it will always be the same, every pull.
With the stock single stage trigger, the sear engagement starts from the second you start pulling, but there is just a lot more surface area of "shelf" to travel across, which is where, on very precise shots, with a very steady finger, you can make it, and feel it, creep across the sear surfaces. The fact is though, this isn't an extra stage, its just the first one, sliding on the sear surfaces and that's how it works. Vs a 2 stage Geissele, the break just isn't anywhere near as crisp. Some stockers are much better than others, but even so, you'll not get a Geissele-sharp second stage type break on any of them. The only way you could is to have a 2lb single stage trigger with very little sear engagement, which obviously isn't the best thing for an all round rifle.
On good single stage triggers, such as a properly set up JP, the geometry is altered and thus the creep is minimized to give you a very good clean break - but again, unlike the true 2 stage, what you feel is your pressure load on your finger without any movement at all....then it breaks all at once. In this case, it could be argued that if you the shooter can accurately gauge 2.5lbs every single time before the last pull....it feels effectively the same (or at least very similar) to your 2 stage when the shot is finally and actually broken. The thing with the 2 stage is that the "wall" takes out any guesswork or uncertainty. Again, there is nothing wrong at all with people who prefer that (and many do)....but there is a significant mechanical difference between a proper 2 stage vs single stage triggers.
do trigger groups break often?i mean if I find one for a good price should I pick it up just to have it?or are they pretty tough?I recently traded into a used ar,it shoots fine,I bought a DD bcg to have for a spare, I would just like to keep a couple extra of parts that are known for breaking.
do trigger groups break often?i mean if I find one for a good price should I pick it up just to have it?or are they pretty tough?I recently traded into a used ar,it shoots fine,I bought a DD bcg to have for a spare, I would just like to keep a couple extra of parts that are known for breaking.
I guess it depends on the trigger, i have yet to hear of a 2 stage Geissele breaking, yet rra's 2 stage is infamous for having problems. A good Mil spec trigger is hard to beat when it come to durability, but the pull will be rougher and heavier but you can train around it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.