View Full Version : Thoughts on 410 pistol snake guns like the Judge?
Doc Safari
07-17-12, 10:51
Thought I'd run this past you guys since you tend to tell it like it is.
What's your opinion of .410 handguns like the S & W Governor or Taurus Judge?
Or is there a better alternative.
I'm hesitant to own a Taurus of any kind for known reasons, but I sure could have used the S & W Governor as a snake gun this past weekend.
There are just times in the brush I need a handgun for snakes and other up-close varmints. Even though I have killed a rattler with my Glock, it took three shots and I'd rather win the argument quicker than that.
Should I put a Governor on my "must have" list, or is it a gimmick in search of a tactical niche?
Thoughts?
...or is it a gimmick in search of a tactical niche?
Thoughts?
This imho. A friend of mine has a judge and I've shot it a couple of times. It's big and heavy with limited uses. It's rifling isn't deep enough to accurately shoot the 45 lc but it definitely has enough to spin out the .410 pellets into a big circle pattern with not much in the middle. Great if you get attacked by an angry bagel but of little use beyond that. Obviously ymmv.
Doc Safari
07-17-12, 11:04
I have used snake shot shells in various pistol calibers, but they seem woefully inadequate, hence the desire for a "hand cannon" with a little more punch in the shot shell department.
I'd have to agree, Icculus, that both .410 revolvers look like big honkin' beasts though.
Doc Safari
07-17-12, 15:00
I found an interesting review of the Governor:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/chris-dumm/gun-review-sw-governor-take-two/
It's surprising that they consider it a devastating home defense gun with the right ammo, but don't recommend it as a snake gun.
I think they're both very poorly named.
"I'll be back in a while. I'm headed out to shoot the Governor."
"Finally got to shoot the Judge last week. What a blast!"
mallowpufft
07-17-12, 18:13
I've shot a buddie's Judge and it's got that "cool" factor but it felt heavier than my. 41mag Blackhawk loaded for hunting and was definitely more unbalanced.
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I found an interesting review of the Governor:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/chris-dumm/gun-review-sw-governor-take-two/
It's surprising that they consider it a devastating home defense gun with the right ammo, but don't recommend it as a snake gun.
I'd consider it a laughable home defense gun, but an ideal snake gun.
John Fritz
07-17-12, 20:30
... Should I put a Governor on my "must have" list, or is it a gimmick in search of a tactical niche? ...
Double post on the review. Disregard.
I shot one once. It seemed like a novelty piece. Carry a hoe. :D
Buckshot TX
07-17-12, 22:00
Both are crappy 45 Colts (they shoot patterns rather than groups due to the style of rifling used) and crappy 410 shotguns (they shoot donut shaped patterns due to the spin imparted on the shot load). The ONLY role they'll serve reasonably well is as a close range snake gun.
Not a very good revolver, but a great bubba gun.
I view them as toys for blasting cans at close range. Not that toys are necessarily bad.
The only time I'll kill a snake is if it's venomous and close to my house. The implement of choice is a hoe or shovel. A cinder block works, too.
If I have to worry about something killing me, or really ****ing up my LIFE, well, I feel my life is worth the hell of a lot more and would not put it in the hands of ANY TAURUS! The cinder block would be more reliable.
xrayoneone
07-18-12, 00:26
If I was going to carry a 410 pistol for snakes I would purchase a Bond Arms derringer. I'm sure it has the same shortcomings as the Judge/S&W when it comes to shot patterning. However, it is smaller and I believe almost a pound lighter. You also have the ability to swap the barrels if you want. The Bond Arms is also a firearm with limited utility but I feel it has a little more "cool factor" than the Judge/S&W.
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 09:17
If I was going to carry a 410 pistol for snakes I would purchase a Bond Arms derringer. I'm sure it has the same shortcomings as the Judge/S&W when it comes to shot patterning. However, it is smaller and I believe almost a pound lighter. You also have the ability to swap the barrels if you want. The Bond Arms is also a firearm with limited utility but I feel it has a little more "cool factor" than the Judge/S&W.
You make a good point. I redid the first post and title to this thread to include more .410 handguns.
Looks like the Bond Arms Snake Slayer IV does best in this website's tests:
http://www.410handguns.com/410_bond_results.html
Ok its not a handgun and I'm not saying its practical or even a good idea but...
You could get one of the pistol grip Mossberg 500 Cruisers in .410, register it as a AOW and chop it down as short as possible. Then you could have a true smooth bore 410 pistol.
mkmckinley
07-18-12, 11:24
It's a ridiculous concept. Almost all snakebites are either on hands or lower legs. Why? People get bit on the hand because they try to **** with the snake. People get bit on the lower leg because they didn't see the snake and walked too close or they stepped on it. In neither scenario would a tard cannon keep you from getting bit. If you see a snake and have time to pull a gun you're better off just moving away. If you're on a ranch trying to protect livestock then a carbine or 12 ga would be a better and more versatile tool. I can't imagine lugging something like a judge just on the off chance you absoltely have to kill a snake. Personally I'd just stick with whatever you're carrying anyway.
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 11:36
It's a ridiculous concept. Almost all snakebites are either on hands or lower legs. Why? People get bit on the hand because they try to **** with the snake. People get bit on the lower leg because they didn't see the snake and walked too close or they stepped on it. In neither scenario would a tard cannon keep you from getting bit. If you see a snake and have time to pull a gun you're better off just moving away. If you're on a ranch trying to protect livestock then a carbine or 12 ga would be a better and more versatile tool. I can't imagine lugging something like a judge just on the off chance you absoltely have to kill a snake. Personally I'd just stick with whatever you're carrying anyway.
Points taken, but when the snake is positioned in such a way that you can't do some work you need to do, then you can't just go out for a bite to eat or something waiting for the snake to move on. :D
I lug my M4 with me on the ranch for two-legged and other varmints, so carrying another long gun is just too much. :D
I'm tempted to look into those single-shot derringers (made by Cobray?) since I don't believe they are too expensive. Not sure if they are glorified toys, though.
I had a Double barrel side by side 410 derringer it was cheap and did the job I would carry that before I drop the money on a judge .it was small enough to have in your front pocket .I sold it to a older friend of Mine that has a farm and he has used it several times to get rid of snakes
I kill more rattlers than I care to think about with 45acp rat shot...it is in the pipe & the rest of the mag is filled w/ 230gr for the two legged snakes.
Do not try to feed rat shot through an auto...rarely do you ever need more than 1 round.
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 12:57
I kill more rattlers than I care to think about with 45acp rat shot...it is in the pipe & the rest of the mag is filled w/ 230gr for the two legged snakes.
Do not try to feed rat shot through an auto...rarely do you ever need more than 1 round.
I used to do that with a Glock 19, but found 9mm shotshells to often require more than one shot.
I also wonder: Glock says not to shoot lead bullets in their barrels because it deposits lead in the bore and leads to overpressure problems. Would lead shot leave deposits?
Cincinnatus
07-18-12, 13:23
I used to do that with a Glock 19, but found 9mm shotshells to often require more than one shot.
I also wonder: Glock says not to shoot lead bullets in their barrels because it deposits lead in the bore and leads to overpressure problems. Would lead shot leave deposits?
Get a stormlake or other barrel and no worries with lead.
As for .410 snake-guns, I think MkMckinley was spot on, why not just carry a 12 gauge? You could have some slugs for distance shooting and shot for snakes.
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 13:35
Get a stormlake or other barrel and no worries with lead.
As for .410 snake-guns, I think MkMckinley was spot on, why not just carry a 12 gauge? You could have some slugs for distance shooting and shot for snakes.
The point is to not have to carry another long gun in addition to the M4. Now if you're suggesting a 12 gauge handgun.... :D
Cincinnatus
07-18-12, 13:45
The point is to not have to carry another long gun in addition to the M4. Now if you're suggesting a 12 gauge handgun.... :D
I meant instead of the M4, not in addition to. Sorry if I was unclear.
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 13:55
I meant instead of the M4, not in addition to. Sorry if I was unclear.
Out on the ranch there is at least the possibility I will encounter a threat beyond handgun or shotgun ranges, so I have to have the M4 with me no matter what.
I used to do that with a Glock 19, but found 9mm shotshells to often require more than one shot.
I also wonder: Glock says not to shoot lead bullets in their barrels because it deposits lead in the bore and leads to overpressure problems. Would lead shot leave deposits?
i wouldn't worry about lead build up with as little as you are going to shoot it as it would have minimal outward pressure on the bbl. (heck, it could be steel shot for all I know)...and yes, the 45 is much better snake med over the 9.
I shoot low flying grackles at camp with mine.:)
If you are in deep woods and carry a 44mag, the 44spl ratshot is good too.
If you are in deep woods and carry a 44mag, the 44spl ratshot is good too.
This. Carry a regular revolver with some ratshot loads for just in case.
Devildawg2531
07-20-12, 08:38
[QUOTE=Doc Glockster;1350008]I have used snake shot shells in various pistol calibers, but they seem woefully inadequate, hence the desire for a "hand cannon" with a little more punch in the shot shell department.
I have to disagree with pistol snake shot shell's being woefully inadequate for killing a snake a close range. I have seen a stray male cat that kept raping my 2 cats get dropped permanently by 1 shot of 44 mag shot shell from about 6 yards from my S&W 629. It kept coming back for 6 months and trying to scare it away didn't work; planned on scaring it away with the shot shell and was surprised by the result.
Regarding snakes; I only kill poisonous snakes (copperhead's and rattlers are the only 2 I have encountered) on my property as I have young children but shot shell makes QUICK work of a snake at close range. For snakes I have used 12 guage (buck shot and bird shot), 44 mag shot shell, .40 cal, 44 mag HP's and a BB gun. All were extremely effective except the BB gun (BB gun took about 15 shot's on a copper head :p)
There is no comparison between the .45ACP and 9MM shot. The .45 is way better, the 9MM it’s even close. I also killed a feral cat with the .45ACP, one shot at about 10 feet was all it took. As far as feeding, I had one 1911 that would feed it fine and another that would not.
Travelingchild
07-20-12, 20:21
Now if you're suggesting a 12 gauge handgun.... :D
How about a modern version of this in 16 gauge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_Revolver#cite_note-5
:D
I've killed several rattlers with Speer .38 shot loads from my 2 1/2 on Mod 19 S&W ,and with a Mod 37 airweight.
The short barrel guns are better for this as they seem to impart less spin to the shot and give better patterns without the donut hole.
However it normally requires two shots with this load and closer to the varmint than I really like to be.
I always kind of liked the idea of the little "snake charmer" .410 single barrel,but never got around to getting one.
Reagans Rascals
07-20-12, 23:05
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t403/jwmassaro/tumblr_m39684B70g1rpdm0co1_500.jpg
snake gun.....
Lead shot should not engage the rifling like a lead bullet.
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What about a .22lr pistol like a Walther P22?
...I also killed a feral cat with the .45ACP, one shot at about 10 feet was all it took...
I'm slightly surprised by the performance of the cartridge, but I'm very surprised that you were able to get within 10 feet of a feral cat.
Around my place they spook if you do more than glance in their general direction.
Many folks think that these revolvers have the almost the same power as a shotgun and convincing them otherwise is impossible. Notice that the major holster makers now offer variants for the judge tpye--so it must be a hot seller.
About shooting snakes, the competent handgunner should have no trouble hitting a snake. All aren't on the ground. Some are in bushes at waist level and in trees, and those in willow trees will often drop in a boat as it passes under. Most of these are the very mean Natrix genus members which are not poisonous but do hurt like hell when they bite.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t403/jwmassaro/tumblr_m39684B70g1rpdm0co1_500.jpg
snake gun.....
i had to take care of a small snake infestation at the lake house this past weekend. i never had to deal with snakes before and wasn't quite sure how to handle it. i used what i had.....12 ga. w/ bird shot. my vote is a 12ga. platform of your choice. weather its a sbs, full size double barrel, or what ever,.... you cant beat the versatility of the ammunition. you get one weapon suitable for anything you could come across in the woods. provided you pack the right kind of ammunition . snakes end up like this....... you usually don't find all of the snake by the time its over.
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww151/scb87/IMG_0265.jpg
I'm slightly surprised by the performance of the cartridge, but I'm very surprised that you were able to get within 10 feet of a feral cat.
Around my place they spook if you do more than glance in their general direction.
The cat got into the basement of a friends house. He tried for about an hour to get out and then called me.
Sent from my Prism using Tapatalk 2
Crow Hunter
07-30-12, 15:14
Notice that the major holster makers now offer variants for the judge tpye--so it must be a hot seller.
It is ridiculously popular.
Right after they came out I worked a table at a beer/cigar show for a dealer friend of my buddy. (Showing not selling:eek:, trying to drum up interest in the shop)
We had the Judge along with a Barrett M82A1 and a LWRC REPR among other things very nice guns. Somewhere around $15,000 worth of NICE hardware.
Most popular:
1. Judge (by at least a 2-1 margin)
2. Sig with a goofy rainbow oil pattern (I don't remember the model)
3. Barrett
Only one person asked about the REPR, and maybe two about the HK MK 23.
People were trying to buy the Judge from us. :no:
Interesting, many of the women seemed more interested in the Barrett. Including one of the beer "Fraulien" models.:D
Travelingchild
07-30-12, 18:35
Coworker "Dude I'm buying a JUDGE for self defense"
Me "Why"
Coworker "It shots Shotgun shells!"
Me "Ever hunt squirrels growing up & what ya use?"
Coworker "410 and the little fu%@ks would never die"
Me "Same gauge"
Coworker "Well I ain't hunting squirrels, IT'S for self defense!!"
Me "So it/you sucked hunting squirrels out of a real shotgun but some how it'll STOP a 300lb pissed off convict or 100lb tripping meth-head? Who's trying to kill you?
Coworker "Dude it's a FREAKING JUDGE!"
Me "Whatever":rolleyes:
Coworker "Dude I'm buying a JUDGE for self defense"
Me "Why"
Coworker "It shots Shotgun shells!"
Me "Ever hunt squirrels growing up & what ya use?"
Coworker "410 and the little fu%@ks would never die"
Me "Same gauge"
Coworker "Well I ain't hunting squirrels, IT'S for self defense!!"
Me "So it/you sucked hunting squirrels out of a real shotgun but some how it'll STOP a 300lb pissed off convict or 100lb tripping meth-head? Who's trying to kill you?
Coworker "Dude it's a FREAKING JUDGE!"
Me "Whatever":rolleyes:
You dont know man...its called a judge for a reason...for judging 300lb pissed off meth heads on 5 hour energy...duh
sent from my overcompensation tool known as the galaxy note
Most of the people I know that have bought these type of handguns plinked around with them for a while then sold them and got something they could really use. I have had a chance to pick a couple up cheap, but passed.
Dave
I personally think that a .410 is too much gun to shoot at close range (likely into rocks) with a slim chance of having eye protection. Most of us don't live in Africa or South America, and you can safely kill any snake on this continent with a decent sized stick. If you really feel the need for a "snake gun" the aforementioned rat shot out of a service caliber will suffice.
There is no comparison between the .45ACP and 9MM shot. The .45 is way better, the 9MM it’s even close. I also killed a feral cat with the .45ACP, one shot at about 10 feet was all it took. As far as feeding, I had one 1911 that would feed it fine and another that would not.
My main problem with the 9mm shot I have used is the design. The .45acp is enclosed and usually feeds well, while the 9mm has that stupid bubble on the end that likes to crack/explode when it hits the feed ramp.
I have killed some big venomous snakes with both. They might not be ready to handle after one shot of 9mm, but they sure don't seem to be getting away from the follow up in a hurry either. A face shot with .22 shot will usually take the piss out of a big rattler or cottonmouth on contact.
But yes, .45acp or LC is the best!
I have a coworker who picked one up. He picked it up as a casual plinker. 3 months later and 400 rounds later and it was toast. Terribly out of time, crane bent. Would make a nice paperweight except for the fact it is a POS. This is the second coworker who has picked up a Taurus in the past 6 years.
The other one picked up a Raging Bull....wait for it.... used. He didn't get a box through it before he was picking copper jacket fragments out of his cheeck.
Most of us don't live in Africa or South America, and you can safely kill any snake on this continent with a decent sized stick. If you really feel the need for a "snake gun" the aforementioned rat shot out of a service caliber will suffice.
A few years ago I would have agreed with that assessment but lately there have been some immense burmese pythons showing up in Florida. LINK (http://articles.cnn.com/2012-08-13/us/us_florida-largest-python_1_burmese-python-kenneth-krysko-invasive-species)
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