View Full Version : "the depression could be so severe that I don’t think our civilization could survive"
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 13:52
http://www.cnbc.com/id/48193471
“When we broke the link between money and gold, this removed all constraints on credit creation. This explosion of credit created the world we live in, but it now seems that credit cannot expand any further because the private sector is incapable of repaying the debt it has already, and if credit begins to contract, there’s a very real danger that we will collapse into a new Great Depression,”
“If this credit bubble pops, the depression could be so severe that I don’t think our civilization could survive it.”
Eurodriver
07-18-12, 14:00
Doom and gloom hooplah that has been said since Carter.
When will it end?
Oh, and could someone please educate me on what makes the paper bills in my wallet any different than gold coins in my safe?
Isn't our acceptance of gold as being valuable what gives it its value? Doesn't that same concept apply to paper money?
At least paper money can be used to start fires or roll a blunt in. What can you do with a safe full of gold in a collapsed economy?
Well this is going to be a Debbie Downer of a thread huh. ;)
Doom and gloom hooplah that has been said since Carter.
When will it end?
Oh, and could someone please educate me on what makes the paper bills in my wallet any different than gold coins in my safe?
Isn't our acceptance of gold as being valuable what gives it its value? Doesn't that same concept apply to paper money?
At least paper money can be used to start fires or roll a blunt in. What can you do with a safe full of gold in a collapsed economy?
Legal tender laws make the monopoly money in your wallet have value. Gold and silver have been universal money for thousands of years recognized around the world. Other items can be used as currency if both parties consent that it's value is worth their labor or goods. Tobacco was used in early America as currency. Pretty much anything that takes labor to acquire can be used as money.
Gold in your safe isn't practical for everyday items you don't have after a currency collapse. Fractional silver would be better for this. What gold does is store your wealth that you have accumulated through your labor or investment/loan of your capital in which you have earned interest or received a profit on. If a currency collapses and all your eggs are in one basket, ie us dollar, all of your accumulated wealth is wiped out in an instant, except for any tangible items in your possession, firearms, food, tractor etc.
Anybody holding continental dollars after it collapsed could have used it as toilet paper. Whoever held gold and silver could exchange it for the next us dollar to buy goods and services with once created as well as trade during the collapse.
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-12, 16:08
Roubini: My 'Perfect Storm' Scenario Is Unfolding Now
http://www.cnbc.com/id/48116835
http://www.cnbc.com/id/48193471
The current debt cannot, EVER, be repaid. There is more credit than dollars in existence due to fractional reserve banking. We are waaaay beyond ****ed.
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 16:20
The current debt cannot, EVER, be repaid. There is more credit than dollars in existence due to fractional reserve banking. We are waaaay beyond ****ed.
I heard a supposed financial expert on a radio show recently (sorry can't remember his name) state that the first sign of trouble will be a hiccup, then a total collapse in the derivatives market. Derivatives are over-valued to several times the worth of actual goods being "bet on". Supposedly once the derivatives bubble bursts, it will cause the whole avalanche.
When times get tough, AND they will, (what better way to create chaos amongst the subjects) I will have something you want, but I won't trade for some colored paper, but trade me something real like PM's, ammo, guns, alcohol, smokes, tobacco, food, or any objects useful to others for trading, and then I will do business with you. Paper won't work just anywhere. In this case, diversification is good. Not every thing in one form of goods/currency. Right now, if one has PM's, they can go trade it for paper, as long as paper is accepted for a form of payment. When shtf, paper won't be worth what other goods will be. People can think "Doom And Gloom won't happen", but I would rather have some "Diversification", than just all currency paper. My paper in the bank, and the bank folds/bankers just keep it all, I'm screwed, not getting my paper back. PM's, etc, are in my possession and not as easily "Taken". Not that they can't be taken, just not as easily.
Just my $0.02 worth/worthless. (BTW, that $0.02, is in copper):D
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-12, 16:44
Prepper fantasy.
Yeah, that's what they said prior to 29 October 1929. :sarcastic:
Yeah, that's what they said prior to 29 October 1929. :sarcastic:
Uh huh. And civilization survived.
A few things.
1. America does not know how to exist without credit. If people couldn't buy things without borrowed money they would find they couldn't live a lifestyle any higher than that of the average American during the 1940s and nobody knows how to do that anymore.
2. If the whole thing falls down the people who get rich by extending credit will suddenly stop making money and they sure as hell ain't gonna let that happen. We will see 45% interest rates first.
3. The worst possible thing that could happen to the power brokers is for the whole thing to fall down and for Americans to be forced into self reliance, industrial resurgence and a product based economy.
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-12, 17:40
And civilization survived.
After an estimated 7,000,000 Americans died from hunger (thats just Americans mind you).
Multiply that by the latest census numbers and one can appreciate the doom-n-gloom factor a little more. In '29 many Americans lived and worked on family farms, today the average American household will get the food that makes up one meal from an estimated 1,100 miles away.
Uh huh. And civilization survived.
It did. It will again. It's also much different this time with a huge entitlement crowd. Back then the average Americans pulled together and helped each other out. Nowadays one voting block has the government do it at gunpoint. Don't pay your taxes and the taxman's agents come knocking to seize your property, all of your assets and throw you in jail. Depending on the amount though you might just pay a fine, but you get the point.
Uh huh. And civilization survived.
"Civilization", as a whole, survived, but there were quite a few "Individuals" that didn't.
"Usually", you always will "Survive", but to what degree do you choose to survive? Very well, or by the skin of your teeth?
some will survive
will the US still be on top ? not sure but if we fall everyone falls so we just might be on top of a very small hill
I just look at history back to any great civilization from the Romans to the Mayans to the Spanish to the English and realize nothing is for ever as far as being top dog
BUT things keep going just in a much dif way for some people
going back as recent as WWII and seeing what many European countries went through ? did they see that coming how did they prepare how are they today ?
for me its more about making it through to the other side and in some sick way I kinda wonder if it would clear out a lot of the weak and the strong remain ?
with kids 3 & 8 I do know their world will be totally dif than mine was ! then again my world was totally dif than my dads and so on ! but I do think things have gotten worse for the same amount they have gotten better but I am a Karma balance kinda thinker about things
I heard a supposed financial expert on a radio show recently (sorry can't remember his name) state that the first sign of trouble will be a hiccup, then a total collapse in the derivatives market. Derivatives are over-valued to several times the worth of actual goods being "bet on". Supposedly once the derivatives bubble bursts, it will cause the whole avalanche.
Jp Morgan had a 2 billion dollar hiccup about a month or 2 ago. Considering derivatives are in the 600T to 1quadrillion dollar range. 2 billion is a hiccup.
Prepper fantasy.
Do your homework on money, currency collapses, credit and central banks. Oh that's right we're the USA, nothing will ever happen here :rolleyes:
The current debt cannot, EVER, be repaid. There is more credit than dollars in existence due to fractional reserve banking. We are waaaay beyond ****ed.
Think so? What happens when they print so much worthless money that a million dollars will only buy you an 8 year old used car (think Nigerian Naira). It's pretty easy to pay off a $14T debt with worthless fiat money. :(
Think so? What happens when they print so much worthless money that a million dollars will only buy you an 8 year old used car (think Nigerian Naira). It's pretty easy to pay off a $15.8T debt with worthless fiat money. :(
There, I fixed it for you.
I know that this strategy to reduce our debt burden has been proposed. I have to wonder if our external creditors would stop financing our debt should we attempt to devalue our currency in the manner that you describe. The sudden withdrawal of credit could just as likely cause a deflationary crash of our economy.
Bottom line is that we stand a very small chance of recovering from 6 decades of fiscal and monetary mistakes, but only if we act within the next 3-5 years. After that, the widow closes and you can choose any number of doomsday scenarios within 20-30 years.
GeorgiaBoy
07-19-12, 01:07
Doom. Gloom.
Doom. Gloom.
Doom. Gloom.
Doom. Gloom.
:secret:
Preppers/tinfoilists WANT the world economy to crash. It would mean that the $1000's of dollars spent on their food and supplies wasn't spent in vain.
Preppers/tinfoilists WANT the world economy to crash. It would mean that the $1000's of dollars spent on their food and supplies wasn't spent in vain.
I know what you are saying, but there is nothing wrong with prepping. Worst case scenario nothing happens and you have to do some back yard camping to justify eating your preps.
The secret is prepping smart and doing things that will actually be useful if and when an emergency arises.
GeorgiaBoy
07-19-12, 02:45
I don't see anything wrong with prepping for a short term disaster, such as Katrina. Having a week or two's worth of food and supplies set aside is fine, and smart, especially if you live in a more disaster-prone area.
People that set aside years of food, tens of thousands of rounds, dozens of 50 gallon drums of water, ect are what I'm referring to.
Moose-Knuckle
07-19-12, 03:59
People that set aside years of food, tens of thousands of rounds, dozens of 50 gallon drums of water, ect are what I'm referring to.
I bet some of those seven million Americans who starved to death in the Great Depression would have done just about anything for a mouth full of ten year old MREs. :secret:
GeorgiaBoy
07-19-12, 04:58
Out of context.
QuietShootr
07-19-12, 07:51
Prepper fantasy.
http://i.sharefa.st/wxItyg8ofzLz.gif
QuietShootr
07-19-12, 07:57
Doom. Gloom.
Doom. Gloom.
Doom. Gloom.
Doom. Gloom.
:secret:
Preppers/tinfoilists WANT the world economy to crash. It would mean that the $1000's of dollars spent on their food and supplies wasn't spent in vain.
http://www.whosyourvulva.com/storage/post-images/douchebag.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1325736111826
Think so? What happens when they print so much worthless money that a million dollars will only buy you an 8 year old used car (think Nigerian Naira). It's pretty easy to pay off a $14T debt with worthless fiat money. :(
Fractional reserve banking. There's ALWAYS more credit than money.
I don't see anything wrong with prepping for a short term disaster, such as Katrina. Having a week or two's worth of food and supplies set aside is fine, and smart, especially if you live in a more disaster-prone area.
People that set aside years of food, tens of thousands of rounds, dozens of 50 gallon drums of water, ect are what I'm referring to.
I don't see anything wrong with being over prepped. Like I said worst case scenario is nothing ever happens and you have to eat your 5,000 lbs. of rice one day.
I wouldn't mind having years of food, probably save me a few trips to the grocery store.
Doc Safari
07-19-12, 11:55
People that set aside years of food, tens of thousands of rounds, dozens of 50 gallon drums of water, ect are what I'm referring to.
It's easy to think that just because things have continued to progress for hundreds of years that they will continue indefinitely. People forget that civilization is just a thin veneer of order over a chaotic, unpredictable, and dangerous world.
I'm sure the last few generations living in the crumbling Roman Empire couldn't conceive of a Dark Ages where even basic skills like reading and writing would fall into disuse either.
QuietShootr
07-19-12, 12:20
It's easy to think that just because things have continued to progress for hundreds of years that they will continue indefinitely. People forget that civilization is just a thin veneer of order over a chaotic, unpredictable, and dangerous world.
I'm sure the last few generations living in the crumbling Roman Empire couldn't conceive of a Dark Ages where even basic skills like reading and writing would fall into disuse either.
I find it fascinating that guys like this get so angry about the idea of someone else storing emergency supplies. My working hypothesis is that the anti-preppers are subconsciously scared shitless that the "preppers" are right, but to acknowledge this openly would force them to face their carefully constructed mental Potemkin village they live in, and acknowledge that the omnipresent "They" that the anti-prepper thinks will take care of everything for them actually can't.
montanadave
07-19-12, 12:47
Self-sufficiency fulfills a deep yearning that a lot of folks possess, whether they're dope-smoking hippies decked out in tie-dye on the commune or uber-conservative preppers building their SHTF bunker in the Northwest Redoubt.
The vast majority of us live in a world where our food is supplied by folks we don't know from places we don't see, our communications are through devices which might as well be magic considering the level of understanding most of us possess as to their actual workings, our heat and power are supplied through cables and tubes leading we know not where, and on and on it goes.
So it's pretty "normal" for people to push back against that level of dependency and feel like they could "make it on their own" if it all went Dixie. Acquiring the supplies, resources, and skills to survive is pretty basic shit. Like the bottom level on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
I'm no doomsday nut job but I don't enjoy knowing if the power went out and the IGA truck didn't roll up to the loading dock I'd be starving in the dark. So I've taken some steps to make sure that doesn't happen and I've got some country property where I'm building a vacation cabin ... which will be off the grid, have its own water supply, a well stocked root cellar full of provisions, and plenty of wild game just out the door.
And making preparations also provides a secondary psychological need. A lot of us feel pretty powerless watching the news every night and seeing the continuing litany of fear-mongering and doom-prediction. So **** that noise. Go out and do something productive which makes you feel more in control of your own life and builds some confidence rather than having it continually sapped away in drips and drabs by the talking heads and politicians.
If it reduces your anxiety, makes you feel more confident and self-assured, and improves your overall mental outlook, I don't see a downside.
I don't see anything wrong with being over prepped. Like I said worst case scenario is nothing ever happens and you have to eat your 5,000 lbs. of rice one day.
I wouldn't mind having years of food, probably save me a few trips to the grocery store.
Not only that, but a proper way to do it is to start to significantly live off the stored food such that it gets rotated and never gets overly old.
Having a few weeks or months or a year worth of long term freeze dried food is one thing. But having lots of grain, canned food, etc to last a really long time is where things get interesting and that is stuff you can rotate and use on a regular basis.
Make your own bread. Use the cans off your shelf on a regular basis. Rotate it so that it becomes part of your normal menus on a day to day basis. That is the smart way of doing it. You will be able to overcome personal tragedies (long term unemployment), localized disasters, as well as long term national disasters (of a low intensity sort -- if you have to bug out, good luck brining your 5000lbs of rice with you).
--
Self-sufficiency fulfills a deep yearning that a lot of folks possess, whether they're dope-smoking hippies decked out in tie-dye on the commune or uber-conservative preppers building their SHTF bunker in the Northwest Redoubt.
The vast majority of us live in a world where our food is supplied by folks we don't know from places we don't see, our communications are through devices which might as well be magic considering the level of understanding most of us possess as to their actual workings, our heat and power are supplied through cables and tubes leading we know not where, and on and on it goes.
So it's pretty "normal" for people to push back against that level of dependency and feel like they could "make it on their own" if it all went Dixie. Acquiring the supplies, resources, and skills to survive is pretty basic shit. Like the bottom level on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
I'm no doomsday nut job but I don't enjoy knowing if the power went out and the IGA truck didn't roll up to the loading dock I'd be starving in the dark. So I've taken some steps to make sure that doesn't happen and I've got some country property where I'm building a vacation cabin ... which will be off the grid, have its own water supply, a well stocked root cellar full of provisions, and plenty of wild game just out the door.
And making preparations also provides a secondary psychological need. A lot of us feel pretty powerless watching the news every night and seeing the continuing litany of fear-mongering and doom-prediction. So **** that noise. Go out and do something productive which makes you feel more in control of your own life and builds some confidence rather than having it continually sapped away in drips and drabs by the talking heads and politicians.
If it reduces your anxiety, makes you feel more confident and self-assured, and improves your overall mental outlook, I don't see a downside.
Well said.
If it doesn't float you boat, don't do it. But why get on the case of those who feel the need and do so?
Fact is, we all [most of us I bet] buy car insurance, life insurance, etc though we hope to never use it. Most of us CCW for the same reason. What is wrong with a little bit of self-provided food insurance / emergency insurance?
-
Reminds me of "Burry Your Head In The Sand, And When Someone Comes by, You Just Say, Every things OK, Move along". Never mind where you might have buried your head, don't look around to see if it might be in a dry flash flood riverbed.
This is on an individual basis, on a "Civilization" basis, (depending on the definition of Civilization) yes it will still "Exist". It could be looked at as wearing a seat belt/shoulder strap, you probably won't need it, but common sense tells you to wear it, because it "could" happen. And those who didn't, well a lot of them aren't here to tell their story. Are you worried about civilization, or are you worried about #1, yourself? Or if something happens, do you expect those who prepared, to carry your unprepared ass too? A lot of people these days, prey on the kindness of others for their own bad choices, and in this case they are going to find people that prepared are not going to be very damn kind anymore.
For those who believe in the Old Testament, (for those who don't, disregard this) go back and read about the tinfoil hat wearer named "Noah". In that story too, "Civilization" survived. But IIRC, only a small percentage survived, but yes "Civilization" did survive. Noah was labeled a "Tinfoiler" amongst other things.
I guess my Mom and her friends are nut jobs. Back in the 1950s raising five kids she canned at least a year supply of jams, fruits and some beans. She socked away canned goods in closets and under beds. Back then they called it common sense to be able to eat for several weeks or months in case of job loss, injury or family in need.
It is only our just-in-time generation that thinks everything will always work and someone else will take care of them.
I often wish I bought 50,000 rounds or more of 308 when I used to get it for under $87 for 970 round or some odd size case ? sure it was berdan primed but who cares
like others know if you stockpile food and its part of what you eat and you rotate it ? its not as much stockpiling !
GeorgiaBoy
07-19-12, 15:15
I never said there was anything wrong with being overprepped. I said that people that are overprepped often WANT to see the economy collapse, or a global/regional natural disaster to occur.
The problem is, I think people go at "prepping" all wrong. Most "preppers" are living in suburban neighborhoods, storing bulk food and supplies in their sheds or houses. The problem is, keeping supplies compacted like that, and in a more populated area, simply isn't the best way of doing things. They aren't easily transported and can easily by ransacked.
I never said there was anything wrong with being overprepped. I said that people that are overprepped often WANT to see the economy collapse, or a global/regional natural disaster to occur.
interesting. No one I know thinks that.
The problem is, I think people go at "prepping" all wrong. Most "preppers" are living in suburban neighborhoods, storing bulk food and supplies in their sheds or houses. The problem is, keeping supplies compacted like that, and in a more populated area, simply isn't the best way of doing things. They aren't easily transported and can easily by ransacked.
I'd rather have that problem than not have the problem in the first place. ETA: meaning, I'd rather have to defend my food and supplies than not have them at all and die of starvation
And lots of the issues that you might want a long term storage for, for example, are things that may only affect you -- like long term unemployment.
That seems to be a self righteous myth some people invented to feel superior. I know absolutely nobody who preps who wants bad crap to happen. Certainly nobody with kids. My mother sure did not want bad things to happen when she put up cans and dad hunted to fill the freezer.
I wish the blow hards that accuse preppers of wanting SHTF to actually quote such a person, give a citation. It takes a small pitiful mind to throw out such generalizations. If someone were to want a collapse the I suspect they are an immature 14 yr old.
Stupid. Childish.
Stupid. Childish.
Stupid. Childish.
Stupid. Childish.
(Big Freakin Secret!)
Let's look at this rationally:
Of course not all "preppers" look forward to catastrophe with predilection. Very few sane people wish disaster for the world. Most just desire the best for themselves, their loved ones, and posterity. So, they take prudent steps to minimize future suffering and increase their odds of success should an unforeseen calamity or misfortune arise. This is perfectly reasonable and rational.
But I think it's true that there's a subtle shade of fantasy that is pervasive not just among "preppers," but innate in all of us, where people like to imagine themselves as heroic and stoic figures in the face of crisis. It takes a few minutes of honest reflection to find it. There are a few things at work, one being the natural desire to be looked up to as a savior when others are in distress. It's perfectly normal to dream or daydream about such occasions when this fantasy could be realized, from time to time. Another is the concept of "schadenfreude," or the pleasure derived from the misfortune of others.
Take disaster movies, or zombie movies, for example. We tend to identify with the heroes, even experience the plot vicariously through them. When unfortunate characters die or get eaten, we think, "ha what a dumbass." Again, heroism and schadenfreude - they're what these stories thrive on.
So naturally this meme spreads a bit into the realm of reality for "preppers." What would be weird is if it didn't. There's nothing unnatural about looking at your stock of supplies or food or guns and thinking "damn, I'm ready for anything," and then even letting your mind wander a bit toward scenarios of heroism and schadenfreude. It doesn't mean you want these scenarios to play out. It just means that you're human and have an imagination.
I think it is more that some "preppers" (Oh how I hate that word) may have adopted a kind of fatalistic attitude. It is not that they want "it" too happen (some catastrophic SHTF event), but rather, they are resigned that it WILL happen some day...
So, there is a fatalistic undercurrent in the "prepping" community with some individuals or sub-groups.
---
I think it is more that some "preppers" (Oh how I hate that word) may have adopted a kind of fatalistic attitude. It is not that they want "it" too happen (some catastrophic SHTF event), but rather, they are resigned that it WILL happen some day...
So, there is a fatalistic undercurrent in the "prepping" community with some individuals or sub-groups.
Yeah, there's definitely a degree of truth to that. It's an astute and incisive observation that didn't immediately cross my mind at first.
There really are well-developed eschatologies and apocalyptic forecasts floating around in the minds of some individuals and groups that are predicated on delusional and unsupportable beliefs. The Nibiru Cataclysm and December 2012 come to mind; same with that preacher who recently wrongly predicted the Great Tribulation - twice. Of course, not all doomsday scenarios are quite this implausible, but in any case, presupposing with certainty that destruction or disaster is a foregone conclusion is not a healthy worldview.
But still, like you said, I don't think this is the majority position. And it's not the same as someone who takes a realistic look at history and concludes that calamity is likely in his or her lifetime. That's much more reasonable, and I think more representative of this forum, with the exception of a small few.
Let's look at this rationally:
Of course not all "preppers" look forward to catastrophe with predilection. Very few sane people wish disaster for the world. Most just desire the best for themselves, their loved ones, and posterity. So, they take prudent steps to minimize future suffering and increase their odds of success should an unforeseen calamity or misfortune arise. This is perfectly reasonable and rational.
But I think it's true that there's a subtle shade of fantasy that is pervasive not just among "preppers," but innate in all of us, where people like to imagine themselves as heroic and stoic figures in the face of crisis. It takes a few minutes of honest reflection to find it. There are a few things at work, one being the natural desire to be looked up to as a savior when others are in distress. It's perfectly normal to dream or daydream about such occasions when this fantasy could be realized, from time to time. Another is the concept of "schadenfreude," or the pleasure derived from the misfortune of others.
Take disaster movies, or zombie movies, for example. We tend to identify with the heroes, even experience the plot vicariously through them. When unfortunate characters die or get eaten, we think, "ha what a dumbass." Again, heroism and schadenfreude - they're what these stories thrive on.
So naturally this meme spreads a bit into the realm of reality for "preppers." What would be weird is if it didn't. There's nothing unnatural about looking at your stock of supplies or food or guns and thinking "damn, I'm ready for anything," and then even letting your mind wander a bit toward scenarios of heroism and schadenfreude. It doesn't mean you want these scenarios to play out. It just means that you're human and have an imagination.
So I think we can tone down the madness a little bit.
I'd agree with this. I also think there is a very small proportion of the population who believe that the country can only be restored after a cathartic disaster. Some of these people think that the enormity of the suffering will bring people to there senses. Others are religious extremists who take a literal interpretation to the apocalyptic passages.
Personally, I think that we are headed for some very rough waters. All Americans will see an erosion in their standard of living. A significant percentage will be devastated (think post-Katrina), while the industrious will still live reasonable, but less lavish, lives. Barring a massive disaster or nuclear attack, I'm not seeing the Book of Eli scenarios ever happening where everyone is living out their entire lives hunting for water, electricity, etc.
Belmont31R
07-20-12, 00:34
Some tards out there but nothing wrong with be able to deal with extended power outages which also means you can't use your debit card to go buy groceries with.
No Im not going to dig a fallout shelter but IMO its better to be over prepped while being a bit nutty than being one of the vast majority whom have no provisions to deal with a power outage up to a few days let alone a week, several weeks, a month...ect. It happens. Hurricances, ice storms, floods, and a host of other issues that happen every every year. A lot of places are still very at risk with having above ground power and data lines. Look at the 3 million people who just had power knocked out in the mid atlantic and ohio areas.
QuietShootr
07-31-12, 12:01
I never said there was anything wrong with being overprepped. I said that people that are overprepped often WANT to see the economy collapse, or a global/regional natural disaster to occur.
The problem is, I think people go at "prepping" all wrong. Most "preppers" are living in suburban neighborhoods, storing bulk food and supplies in their sheds or houses. The problem is, keeping supplies compacted like that, and in a more populated area, simply isn't the best way of doing things. They aren't easily transported and can easily by ransacked.
That's a lot of assumptions, most of which are wrong, due to your inherent bias against "preppers", as you call them. Don't keep all your eggs in one basket is a precept anyone with any sense lives by. And regardless, even if someone does stock supplies in their house, they're going to be better off than someone who doesn't.
Simple example: when winter storms knock out power in my area, the grocery stores empty of perishables in about 10 minutes, people get scalper's prices for generators, and lots of people wind up leaving for a hotel in a couple of days if it takes that long to get the power back on. I throw a couple of logs in the wood-fired furnace, stay inside, run the generator for a couple of hours a day to keep the freezers cold, surf the Internet on battery power, and generally enjoy my vacation. It would take a couple of weeks of sustained service interruption to cause ANY change in that routine at all.
It's kind of a nice feeling to know that we aren't three meals from starvation, and a month or more from freezing to death (assuming I did nothing to get more fuel or wood). Snowstorm? Meh. Natural disaster? Meh. TEOTWAWKI? Yeah....would suck, but I'd get through it. How? Nunya.
The_War_Wagon
07-31-12, 12:56
MY money's on silver & gold. :cool:
And to a hedged extent, SOME bases metals - copper, brass, lead... preferably assembled... ;)
MY money's on silver & gold. :cool:
And to a hedged extent, SOME bases metals - copper, brass, lead... preferably assembled... ;)
Gold, silver (Silver is the best bet though; it is a standalone water purifier; and that is valuable!), platinum, titanium and copper is where I keep most of my investments; they've all paid out incredibly well over the past 5-10 years...
Ammo and food/potable water as well. You can never have enough of those, no matter what the situation.
The next real depression will be a very bad one; we've been pushing the pain further and further away; once we actually have to realize it- it will be MAJOR! Not the end of humanity as a whole, but it will be one heck of a ride to be on, and most won't make it due to their inability to adapt/not properly preparing.
The world is nothing if not interesting right now; crazy, backwards, insane and interesting...
A few things.
1. America does not know how to exist without credit. If people couldn't buy things without borrowed money they would find they couldn't live a lifestyle any higher than that of the average American during the 1940s and nobody knows how to do that anymore.
See, I don't get where people think they need credit to survive. Know how much interest I've payed in THREE years on my credit cards? $180, and that wasn't even interest, those were balance transfers just because I wanted to take advantage of a 0% APR by not having to pay something off for three years.
Aside from my home and student loans, I have no debt. I pay for everything with credit cards, and then immediately pay those cards off (great for reward points). My parents raised me and taught me to take care of my finances.
Where people get the idea that you NEED credit to survive is beyond me... unless those some people think you need to drive a car worth more than you make in a year, a house that costs more than you make in ten years, etc.
VooDoo6Actual
07-31-12, 14:24
See, I don't get where people think they need credit to survive. Where people get the idea that you NEED credit to survive is beyond me...
This + 1.
People who don't have cash and want to purchase a house/car, NEED credit to barrow the money. For me, for now, that would be all I would need it for. And I will not buy a NEW car, instead I will let someone else take the depreciation, and get a good used auto for less.
I think it is more that some "preppers" (Oh how I hate that word) may have adopted a kind of fatalistic attitude. It is not that they want "it" too happen (some catastrophic SHTF event), but rather, they are resigned that it WILL happen some day...
So, there is a fatalistic undercurrent in the "prepping" community with some individuals or sub-groups.
Exactly. Very well said.
MY money's on silver & gold. :cool:
Silver. If I had more spare "resources" I would be hoarding the metal.
GeorgiaBoy
08-01-12, 00:08
a0cake hit the nail on the head.. And I think what he said was basically what I was trying to say, except I was being a little more harsh on the preppers.
Wanting it vs. Believing it's inevitable
Like he said, most (some, few, I have no statistical data) preppers are prepping with the thought that there WILL be something to go wrong.
Lets have a little analogy with insurance.
Most people buy fire insurance or flood insurance on their home because its a back-of-the-mind comfort. They know that the chances of their house actually catching on fire, or flooding are slim, but they still fork over the extra money to have that piece of mind. Nothing more. They most likely will never conduct a "fire drill", or a "flood evacuation plan".
Preppers are buying fire insurance and flood insurance with the thought that their house WILL catch on fire, or there WILL be a flood. Not only do they buy insurance, they also conduct fire drills, to make sure everyone knows what to do in the event of a fire. If a flood occurs, they have a plan to make sure where to go, and what items to take if a flood was to happen.
Moose-Knuckle
08-01-12, 00:53
. . . except I was being a little more harsh on the preppers.
Wanting it vs. Believing it's inevitable
Preppers are buying fire insurance and flood insurance with the thought that their house WILL catch on fire, or there WILL be a flood. Not only do they buy insurance, they also conduct fire drills, to make sure everyone knows what to do in the event of a fire. If a flood occurs, they have a plan to make sure where to go, and what items to take if a flood was to happen.
Do you own a gun?
If so, why? Do you train with it?
Is it because you WANT to and BELIEVE that you will be in a gun fight?
Prepper fantasy.
Normalcy bias
Preppers/tinfoilists WANT the world economy to crash. It would mean that the $1000's of dollars spent on their food and supplies wasn't spent in vain.
Ok I'll play.
Then YOU want your house to burn down and your car to be wrecked and your wife to come down with pneumonia! Because it would mean that the $1000's spent on your home and car and health insurance wasn't in vain
interesting. No one I know thinks that.
+1
In fact, I've talked to my friends in my "group" about that very thing. We all hope we're full of shit and being quite silly. But it doesn't look that way.
GeorgiaBoy
08-01-12, 01:06
Do you own a gun?
If so, why? Do you train with it?
Is it because you WANT to and BELIEVE that you will be in a gun fight?
I train more for the fun and the sporting aspect of it. I also hunt a lot, so training for hunting is training for something that WILL happen, yes.
Someone mentioned earlier about how many families were rural or involved in farming back in the 30's. Good point.
2% of the population is in agriculture today. 2% feeds 98%.
Also, that food is shipped hundreds of miles to the stores, and that relies on affordable fuel. There are too many linch pins holding our society together.
QuietShootr
08-01-12, 10:06
a0cake hit the nail on the head.. And I think what he said was basically what I was trying to say, except I was being a little more harsh on the preppers.
Wanting it vs. Believing it's inevitable
Like he said, most (some, few, I have no statistical data) preppers are prepping with the thought that there WILL be something to go wrong.
Lets have a little analogy with insurance.
Most people buy fire insurance or flood insurance on their home because its a back-of-the-mind comfort. They know that the chances of their house actually catching on fire, or flooding are slim, but they still fork over the extra money to have that piece of mind. Nothing more. They most likely will never conduct a "fire drill", or a "flood evacuation plan".
Preppers are buying fire insurance and flood insurance with the thought that their house WILL catch on fire, or there WILL be a flood. Not only do they buy insurance, they also conduct fire drills, to make sure everyone knows what to do in the event of a fire. If a flood occurs, they have a plan to make sure where to go, and what items to take if a flood was to happen.
I get it. You think that's a BAD thing. I think it's funny that you think it's a bad thing. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable at a car or a sports forum, or maybe THR or Fuddgunshooters.net. You can find lots of people who will support your point of view, and you'll be a lot more sure of your weltanschauung when you're surrounded by your own kind.
montanadave
08-01-12, 10:49
I get it. You think that's a BAD thing. I think it's funny that you think it's a bad thing. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable at a car or a sports forum, or maybe THR or Fuddgunshooters.net. You can find lots of people who will support your point of view, and you'll be a lot more sure of your weltanschauung when you're surrounded by your own kind.
Enough with the "embrace the groupthink or GTFO" mantra. :rolleyes:
It's lack of rational discourse that put this country in the shitter. For those who haven't grasped the notion, living in an echo chamber ain't healthy.
GeorgiaBoy
08-01-12, 11:14
I get it. You think that's a BAD thing. I think it's funny that you think it's a bad thing. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable at a car or a sports forum, or maybe THR or Fuddgunshooters.net. You can find lots of people who will support your point of view, and you'll be a lot more sure of your weltanschauung when you're surrounded by your own kind.
I think it's a over-sensationalized trend; a modern hobby that most people take up out of irrational fear.
Prepping isn't some kind of miracle system. As soon as those lights, running water, phone, Internet, and TV go out, you will realize how insubstantial your canned foods and hoarded ammo are to the grand scheme of things. But this is only MY opinion, and I don't give a single damn what preppers do with their lives. That's their choice.
I don't desire to visit the forums you named, nor do I desire to GTFO to my "own kind ". GD is a minor part of this forum that doesn't affect the rest.
I have tried with so many failures to post with any considerable quantity in this section of the forum. Nearly each time I am slapped down by nearly the same group of close-minded bullying bigots with superiority complexes who think that they somehow own this section of the forum, and that their ideas and thoughts are the only right ones. It's not only me - I see it happen to a lot of people.
I'm done with GD.
QuietShootr
08-01-12, 11:22
Enough with the "embrace the groupthink or GTFO" mantra. :rolleyes:
It's lack of rational discourse that put this country in the shitter. For those who haven't grasped the notion, living in an echo chamber ain't healthy.
Listening to the constant whining of the opposition isn't healthy either. I can get that all day long from the MSM and 80% of the people I come in contact with. As far as I'm concerned, this is a little corner of the world in which we shouldn't have "progressives" shitting all over the floor when the adults are trying to talk. For the same reason that I don't let guys like (heaven forfend, probably you) this hang around in my house (even assuming they'd want to, which is doubtful) - I ALREADY KNOW what the 55% Obama-voter/Foobaw-watching/Working-class Hero crowd thinks about everything, I don't want to or have to hear it when I'm trying to have a discussion about an issue with other like-minded people.
Do you and your buddy GeorgiaBoy go to anti-abortion forums and shit their discussions up too? I mean, we all like pussy, so that should give you all the right and incentive you need to go in there and fart in their elevator too, right?
It's the left's desire to spin and control every discussion that takes place EVERY****INGWHERE that is the reason the country is in the shitter. Do you see me going over to DU and telling them their viewpoint is ****ed up? It is undeniably ****ed beyond belief, but what would I accomplish by going over there and telling them that? I have better shit to do with my time than go into an asshole's house and tell him he's an asshole.
Moose-Knuckle
08-01-12, 11:29
I train more for the fun and the sporting aspect of it. I also hunt a lot, so training for hunting is training for something that WILL happen, yes.
The point is you don't hunt with your CCW or EBRs.
I have tried with so many failures to post with any considerable quantity in this section of the forum. Nearly each time I am slapped down by nearly the same group of close-minded bullying bigots with superiority complexes who think that they somehow own this section of the forum, and that their ideas and thoughts are the only right ones. It's not only me - I see it happen to a lot of people.
I'm done with GD.
For I time I took a break from GD. Not everyone is going to agree with you all the time, that's life friend. Hell, I even have my own personal fan club here who go as far as sending me PM love letters from time to time. :D
montanadave
08-01-12, 11:37
It is possible to have a substantive dialogue predicated upon the desire to enlighten those with an opposing viewpoint and possibly broaden their perspective. Or, at least, illustrate that opposing viewpoints can be well reasoned and articulated.
But, hey, thanks for proving my point.
kaiservontexas
08-01-12, 13:45
Nobody hunts with an EBR? LMFAO
I know I have and do. I know other people do, and I know formerly Fudd shops are starting to have a plethora of AR rifles for sale in their stores.
Asinine statement.
Moose-Knuckle
08-01-12, 14:15
Nobody hunts with an EBR? LMFAO
I know I have and do. I know other people do, and I know formerly Fudd shops are starting to have a plethora of AR rifles for sale in their stores.
Asinine statement.
Really? So you can hunt with "assault weapons" with "high capacity" boxed magazines in all states?
Again, some of you are taking this thread WAY OFF the tracks. This thread is NOT about hunting. But hey, if some of you can only justify owning semi-automatic ARs/AKs/FALs/et al. for hunting Bambi then that is your luxury.
Doc Safari
08-01-12, 14:26
Really? So you can hunt with "assault weapons" with "high capacity" boxed magazines in all states?
{SNIP}
...if some of you can only justify owning semi-automatic ARs/AKs/FALs/et al. for hunting Bambi then that is your luxury.
Not bambi, but Porky Pig and Wyle E. Coyote. They are considered "varmints" (at least in a lot of states) and you don't even need a license to hunt them. Given the fact that a feral hog may charge you if it gets its anger up, yeah, I want that 30-round magazine because that pig may get to eat every round in it.
Back on topic, I think whether this thread turns out to be prophetic or not will depend to a large degree on whether a certain Kenyan/Hawaiian with a Massachusetts social security number gets to put his feet up on the desk in the oval office another four years.
Businesses are hanging back, not expanding, not hiring, not investing, until they see what happens.
I think we are in deep kimchee either way, but at least maybe "civilization" won't melt down if someone gets the spending and overtaxing under control.
Moose-Knuckle
08-01-12, 15:33
Not bambi, but Porky Pig and Wyle E. Coyote. They are considered "varmints" (at least in a lot of states) and you don't even need a license to hunt them. Given the fact that a feral hog may charge you if it gets its anger up, yeah, I want that 30-round magazine because that pig may get to eat every round in it.
Being a resident of Texas I'm aware of the whole no restrictions on varmits. My point was simply to Georgia Boy who claims people only buy things because they WANT or BELIEVE something is going to happen.
I still haven't heard of anyone legally hunting with their CCWs. So why bother with one? That was the point I attempted to make, that is all. ;)
Back on topic, I think whether this thread turns out to be prophetic or not will depend to a large degree on whether a certain Kenyan/Hawaiian with a Massachusetts social security number gets to put his feet up on the desk in the oval office another four years.
Businesses are hanging back, not expanding, not hiring, not investing, until they see what happens.
I think we are in deep kimchee either way, but at least maybe "civilization" won't melt down if someone gets the spending and overtaxing under control.
No doubt, but IMHO it doesn't matter what talking head wins, we cannot undo all that has been done. The course has been set so to speak.
Crow Hunter
08-01-12, 16:11
I still haven't heard of anyone legally hunting with their CCWs.
I have hunted & killed rabbits with my G23 which was my CCW at the time.
Does that count?:p
If civilization falls and most of the people I know and like die, I can't play X-box or watch movies and I am living a "The Road" lifestyle, I don't know that I want to survive....
That being said, I am prepared to go for a while in the chance that everything does get back to "normal".
We get to test that periodically when we have ice storms or tornados that knock out power supplies for days or weeks at a time but I know I couldn't and probably wouldn't want to live for years like that.
Doc Safari
08-01-12, 16:19
If civilization falls and most of the people I know and like die, I can't play X-box or watch movies and I am living a "The Road" lifestyle, I don't know that I want to survive....
This is a concern that is seldom addressed, but it does need to be discussed IMHO.
During the Clinton years I asked a friend of mine a hypothetical question: "Would you take up arms against the government to defend your freedom?"
His answer was blunt and to the point: "No."
That answer surprised me, so I asked him why. He said, "Because I'm old and out of shape enough that I'd probably die during the first contact with the enemy. And even if I don't participate I don't want the country to go to Hell because I like indoor plumbing and sleeping in my own bed."
Even in my forties, I would hate to face some kind of armed disturbance (even if it's against thugs with AK's in pickup trucks). Like the guy always says in the action movie, "I'm gettin' too old for this."
It's a valid concern: be careful what you wish for.
When the SHTF, you may wish you had dedicated yourself to changing things before the fall instead of having to live your life in the aftermath of "whatever".
(Prepping is) . . . a modern hobby that most people take up out of irrational fear.
Having some supplies and knowledge squared away for a rainy day alleviates fear. We don't have to worry about "what ifs". For someone with 6 months of supplies and self sustaining gear, 99% of all disasters that could befall his family are mitigated. The peace of mind that comes with that is beyond words.
Edited: it is also NOT modern. At all. In fact, this modern concept of having only 3 days supplies in the cubboards is very recent. People have always canned, jarred, frozen, or jerkied their food for the off season. I think you're talking out of your ass here, and have a strong hatred of history books. Didn't your grandparents talk about their childhood with you? I don't understand how someone could get such a false idea about this stuff
Moose-Knuckle
08-01-12, 18:43
Edited: it is also NOT modern. At all.
Yeah there was this guy long ago named Noah who built a boat and this other dude named Joseph who saved the populace of ancient Egypt by having the forethought to store grain back so they could survive droughts. :p
Crow Hunter
08-01-12, 18:46
This is a concern that is seldom addressed, but it does need to be discussed IMHO.
During the Clinton years I asked a friend of mine a hypothetical question: "Would you take up arms against the government to defend your freedom?"
His answer was blunt and to the point: "No."
That answer surprised me, so I asked him why. He said, "Because I'm old and out of shape enough that I'd probably die during the first contact with the enemy. And even if I don't participate I don't want the country to go to Hell because I like indoor plumbing and sleeping in my own bed."
Even in my forties, I would hate to face some kind of armed disturbance (even if it's against thugs with AK's in pickup trucks). Like the guy always says in the action movie, "I'm gettin' too old for this."
It's a valid concern: be careful what you wish for.
When the SHTF, you may wish you had dedicated yourself to changing things before the fall instead of having to live your life in the aftermath of "whatever".
Now I am not saying that I would just roll over and die rather than try to defend myself or my way of life.
But I grew up in a very poor part of the South East. I know from talking with the Old Folks that the "Good Ole Days" weren't all that good. It wasn't Little House, at least not around here.
And they weren't trying to defend their food sources from bands of looters.;)
So I would prefer to avoid going back there if possible.:D
Dirk Williams
08-01-12, 19:49
Moose hits on a bit of history not known by most. During the Great Depression it is known that7to 10 million American citizens simply vanished from the face of the earth.
Those folks were a lot tougher then this generation, those folks had skills sets far more resilient then today's soft ass citizens.
If your not prepping, your a fool.
Dirk
GeorgiaBoy
08-01-12, 20:01
.
Edited: it is also NOT modern. At all. In fact, this modern concept of having only 3 days supplies in the cubboards is very recent. People have always canned, jarred, frozen, or jerkied their food for the off season. I think you're talking out of your ass here, and have a strong hatred of history books. Didn't your grandparents talk about their childhood with you? I don't understand how someone could get such a false idea about this stuff
Funny thing is, history is one of my favorite things. I like your mind reading capabilities, I've seen a lot of that on several forums lately. To bad its a bad-read.
Not sure how you also got your definition of "modern" either. How do you know how modern I was referring to? 10 years? 50? 100? 300? You don't know. You are "talking out of your ass".
Unfortuantly, you have your argument and history wrong. Prepping as a "hobby" or "pastime" has only existed for a little over the past decade. Y2K was the big "trigger" that started the recent trend of prepping, and has continued through today with all of the economic instability, corrupt administration, Mayans, Katrina-like hurricanes, global warming, ect.
Your assumption that "People have always canned, jarred, frozen, or jerkied their food for the off season." is somehow related to modern prepping is weak at best. In fact, you said it your self why they did it. It wasn't that they were prepping for TEOTWAWKI or SHTF, they were just trying to make sure they had a somewhat fresh source of off-season foods throughout the year. Strawberries, cherries, and other fresh fruits would not have been available to most people in the early 20th century throughout the year, so they naturally either canned themselves or bought canned foods for the times that they couldn't get them. Not to prepare for the doomsday. Hell, my mother used to (and still does) keep a substanial amount of food in a very large pantry. Probably enough for 3 or 4 people to live off of 2 or 3 weeks. Is she a prepper? No. Just keeps a packed pantry - just like her mother did before her. It always makes sure you have what you need on hand and don't need to run to the store to get it.
Now, I will give it to you, reluctantly, that prepping has existed for some while in its more modern form, tracing back to the early part of the Cold War. I think I would be prepping too during a nuclear stalemate between two superpowers, but we are no longer in that state.
But I have to ask, what the hell are we even arguing about? :blink:
Your assumption that "People have always canned, jarred, frozen, or jerkied their food for the off season." is somehow related to modern prepping is weak at best. In fact, you said it your self why they did it. It wasn't that they were prepping for TEOTWAWKI or SHTF, they were just trying to make sure they had a somewhat fresh source of off-season foods throughout the year.
The reason why they did it doesn't matter. They stored food. They could eat their stored food for the off season or they could eat it during a major calamity. Point is, they had it.
That's like saying the guy with the AR for hunting is normal and the other guy with the AR for home defense is a lunatic. ??? They both have an AR, who cares why they have it.
VooDoo6Actual
08-02-12, 10:51
It's really a lot simpler.
Better to have it & not need it than not have it & need it.
my father in law is from England and was young in WWII
he remembers London bombings and them fleeing to family in the country ! lucky the country folk had lots of food stored and knew how to live cause he said it was a very lean couple years for sure
my dad here in the US also remembers those times with things being lean on food and stuff needed or wanted
funny both sides of my family have lived through tough times as many parents grandparents did also in WWII
being prepared was common back then and the knowledge of canning and gardening was in most homes !
I do wonder if our kids or grand kids will have similar stories to tell but the way people are today I think the tales will be much much different !
I dont believe in a total total collapse but I do think things could get rough and lean for sure and when I look at history its on my side !
This is a concern that is seldom addressed, but it does need to be discussed IMHO.
It's a valid concern: be careful what you wish for.
When the SHTF, you may wish you had dedicated yourself to changing things before the fall instead of having to live your life in the aftermath of "whatever".
I'm with you there Doc, I'd rather fix things now thru political activism than get to play Civil War:eek: Our Elders deserve to spend their golden years in peace rather than us allowing the country to fall low enough that armed insurrection is the only way to correct things.
I'd rather fix things now thru political activism than get to play Civil War:eek: Our Elders deserve to spend their golden years in peace rather than us allowing the country to fall low enough that armed insurrection is the only way to correct things.
With every passing day now, I think we are too late for "Political Activism", and are barreling head on into civil unrest. Look at what is going on around this country now. Look at marshal law in Anaheim Cali over the cop shooting an unarmed person. It's been kept off the major news, but it is happening now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62pffXqRR7o&feature=youtu.be
Doc Safari
08-02-12, 22:59
It may indeed be too late to stop us from becoming Greece.
--Stock up
--Keep a low profile
--Don't talk about prepping except to other preppers
--Leave the big city for more rural digs if you can
--Train
--Cultivate a mindset that you must adapt or die
Belmont31R
08-02-12, 23:21
If I were rich enough Id renounce my citizenship, and go relax somewhere else for the rest of my life. The number of people giving up their citizenship has gone WAY up in the last few years, and people are not stupid. You have the president trying to get reelected, and puts out TV ads about taxing the rich to pay down the debt and to make sure they pay their fair share.
When you have tens of millions in the bank (or over 100mil) theres no reason to live here anymore or try to start any type of business. And its not just dem vs. rino. I live in one of the top 10 counties in the country for growth, and our school district still had budget gaps, lay offs, ect.
With every passing day now, I think we are too late for "Political Activism", and are barreling head on into civil unrest. Look at what is going on around this country now. Look at marshal law in Anaheim Cali over the cop shooting an unarmed person. It's been kept off the major news, but it is happening now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62pffXqRR7o&feature=youtu.be
Exactly. We are past the tipping point. For those who believe the current situation can be corrected through political action, please enlighten us on the path you see workable.
Neither party makes any pretense of significantly slowing deficits, let alone balance the budget or God forbid pay down the deficit. Bankers and corps rip off investors of billions and then get rewarded with govt bailouts instead of 99 yrs in prison. A majority if voters consistently vote for gimmees rather than integrity and accountability. A near majority of Americans receive welfare or subsidies of some form. Most countries around the world are in a similar boat.
Just where is this magic spine the populace will grow to vote for rejection of favors and handouts and easy money?
Hope is a good thing but we also have to accept reality. Preppers are NOT the problem. Most I know are also very active politically even though they realistically don't expect our political direction to change much. The problem are the nincompoops that blather on about and vote for the worse of two evils.
GeorgiaBoy
08-03-12, 00:39
It's not surprising to see what's happening in Anaheim, Kommifornia.
But I do think its being blown a bit out of proportion to what is really happening. It appears that the police are only there to suppress the large crowds and make sure there is no continuing vandalism. 53% of the population there is Hispanic, and they are protesting over 2 Hispanic's deaths. Thats a reason for crowds to get out of hand. I see no checkpoints, no curfews, no door-to-door inspections. Just the same stuff that was happening during the "occupy" movement (cops dressed in riot/SWAT/military gear) that most people on this board were cheering on.
I think you guys need to really sit back and look at the BIG picture. This is a large country, with over 310 million people. We are 4th in land area. We as a country own the largest amount of firearms owned individually than any other. There are 50 individual states; over 3,400 counties. Over 500,000 law enforcement agencies. What is happening in Anaheim isn't going to miraculously and spontaneously spread to every single state, county, and city of this country overnight. This is a localized thing.
I'm not worried about martial law. I live in a more rural area. I personally know the sheriff of my county, and know several officers at both the city and county level. All officers I know have families and deep ties to the community. There is no "martial law" coming here any time soon. If you live in the "big city", maybe you should be a little apprehensions. But me, out in the sticks? Not a care in the world.
It's not surprising to see what's happening in Anaheim, Kommifornia.
I'm not worried about martial law. I live in a more rural area. I personally know the sheriff of my county, and know several officers at both the city and county level. All officers I know have families and deep ties to the community. There is no "martial law" coming here any time soon. If you live in the "big city", maybe you should be a little apprehensions. But me, out in the sticks? Not a care in the world.
This happened about two years ago, but it DID happen. Very small town. But don't worry, it would never happen to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zScT8pnj_gE
Belmont31R
08-03-12, 01:05
It's not surprising to see what's happening in Anaheim, Kommifornia.
But I do think its being blown a bit out of proportion to what is really happening. It appears that the police are only there to suppress the large crowds and make sure there is no continuing vandalism. 53% of the population there is Hispanic, and they are protesting over 2 Hispanic's deaths. Thats a reason for crowds to get out of hand. I see no checkpoints, no curfews, no door-to-door inspections. Just the same stuff that was happening during the "occupy" movement (cops dressed in riot/SWAT/military gear) that most people on this board were cheering on.
I think you guys need to really sit back and look at the BIG picture. This is a large country, with over 310 million people. We are 4th in land area. We as a country own the largest amount of firearms owned individually than any other. There are 50 individual states; over 3,400 counties. Over 500,000 law enforcement agencies. What is happening in Anaheim isn't going to miraculously and spontaneously spread to every single state, county, and city of this country overnight. This is a localized thing.
I'm not worried about martial law. I live in a more rural area. I personally know the sheriff of my county, and know several officers at both the city and county level. All officers I know have families and deep ties to the community. There is no "martial law" coming here any time soon. If you live in the "big city", maybe you should be a little apprehensions. But me, out in the sticks? Not a care in the world.
Thats what people who are ruled by one big city in the entire state said 40-20 years ago.
The same way if I was 60 today, and the GOP said my SS checks will keep rolling no matter what. I don't give a **** if its Obama or Romney. My checks are still going to clear every month no matter what the rest of the country is going through.
The biggest fool on Earth is someone who thinks entitlements are going to be "fixed". I am in a GOP stronghold where well over 70% of the vote went to an multi incumbent GOP Rep and my wife worked in home health nursing. A vast majority of her patients were on Federal programs. Ive been to both our county and Federal SS offices. In both cases there were lines for "free money".
I still laugh about ObamaCare these the diehard GOP supporters. When Medicare Part D was passed it had a projected 10 year cost 90% of what the Projected ObamaCare cost was over 10 years. The GOP sat idely by when we had control from 2000-2006, and saw a more massive expansion of government than what happened under Obama.
GeorgiaBoy
08-03-12, 01:22
This happened about two years ago, but it DID happen. Very small town. But don't worry, it would never happen to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zScT8pnj_gE
Could you do a little research before posting an alarmist video to try to prove a point?
First of all, there was no, and nor is there still martial law in Hardin, Montana. APC, or American Police Force, was an illegitimate, fraudulent private entity that claimed to be a PMC and was run by a convicted criminal. It claimed itself as a company, but didn't even have a license to operate in Montana. It had no jurisdiction over anything.
They were, for some reason (possibly a place to hold Guantanamo Bay-like prison), contracted out to control the abandoned prison facility in Hardin, which some say the town apparently thought would help improve the economy. Sooner or later the Atorney General of Montana began an investigation for violating the "Montana Unfair Trade Practices and Consumer Protection Act in connection with dubious statements on APF's website with regard to APF's operations and supposed contracts with the federal government." APC eventually dropped the contract proposal, left Hardin, and became defunct.
Here are the facts, in bullet form:
Hardin was never under Martial Law
APC was not a legitimate police force or Private Military Company
APC was an illegitimate company with no lisence to operate in Montana
APC did not take over Hardin's Police Force (they did not have even one), nor the Sheriff's Department
APC never had any police control over Hardin, just the prison
Crow Hunter
08-03-12, 08:00
You guys need to read or re-read the beginning of Mel Tappan's Survival Guns.
The book is the Bible of gun shop commando's everywhere and full of useless and incorrect information. I always wonder if Mel Tappan was the originator of the gun shop "wisdom" that I grew up hearing or if he just codified something that already existed. But some of it is entertaining.
But the situation that he outlines sounds just like the doom and gloom descriptions of today with just some minor detail changes.
It was written in 1977.
I don't really remember that time, I was 4, but I do remember the 80's and 90's (well, most of it anyway :D), and what he predicted never materialized.
That isn't to say that it won't. But history does repeat itself. Hopefully we are on the rerun of the 1970's, not the 1930's.:p
Doc Safari
08-10-12, 14:17
Are we there yet?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/08/06/254694/signs-of-us-second-great-depression/
· The real estate collapse in the U.S. is already far worse than that seen during the first Great Depression. For instance, median residential real estate prices have declined by 34% from their peak (reached in mid-2006). In contrast, median real estate prices declined by 31% from their peak during the Great Depression of the 1930s.
Fannie Mae was created in 1938 as part of FDR’s New Deal. After seventy years of successful operations, Fannie Mae became insolvent. Thus far, taxpayers have been forced to pony up hundreds of billions of dollars for Fannie’s bailout, yet the mess remains. Washington has been trying to figure out a way to mitigate the Fannie Mae disaster for four years, but still has no solutions.
· Several dominant financial institutions that were able to survive America’s first Great Depression have failed: Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Washington Mutual and AIG; others remain in trouble despite having received enormous bailouts: Citigroup, Bank of America and hundreds of regional banks.
In 2009, state tax revenues collapsed by 11.8% in the U.S., the largest decline ever. After having depleted funds from the economic stimulus package passed by President Obama in early 2009, states are faltering again.
· In 2009, U.S. manufacturing activity declined by the largest amount since inception of the data (1946). Manufacturing employment remains lower than any time since 1946.
· In 2008 the S&P 500 Index suffered its largest collapse in any calendar year in history at 45.5%, versus 41.9% in 1931 and 38.6% in 1937. This $8 trillion plunge wiped out the possibility of retirement for millions of Americans.
· The global economy shrunk in 2009 for the first time since the Great Depression.
Isn't "PressTV" the Iranian news outlet?
Yes, PressTV is Iranian... I just looked it up.
Assuming they're not doctoring the the stats in a mirror image of the hogwash our own news outlets are feeding us, it's sad that we seem to get more meaningful news from RT and PressTV these days than from our own.
While I appreciate the concern that sites like RT and PressTV have an incentive to paint a darker picture, let's also acknowledge that the US media by-and-large has an incentive to do the opposite. The truth lies somewhere in between.
And here are a couple concerning articles from normal sources today:
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/flood-foreclosures-could-cause-home-prices-drop-20-151541166.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/10/us-banks-recoveryplans-idUSBRE87905N20120810
Doc Safari
08-13-12, 09:26
Yes, PressTV is Iranian... I just looked it up.
Assuming they're not doctoring the the stats in a mirror image of the hogwash our own news outlets are feeding us, it's sad that we seem to get more meaningful news from RT and PressTV these days than from our own.
I was not aware that PressTV was Iranian, or I wouldn't have posted it. They seem to be stating a message consistent with what I've heard literally everywhere else, so I thought they were good to go.
The sad thing is that I trust the Iranian and Russian news outlets at least as much as I trust American news outlets.
:(
If I were rich enough Id renounce my citizenship, and go relax somewhere else for the rest of my life. The number of people giving up their citizenship has gone WAY up in the last few years, and people are not stupid. You have the president trying to get reelected, and puts out TV ads about taxing the rich to pay down the debt and to make sure they pay their fair share.
When you have tens of millions in the bank (or over 100mil) theres no reason to live here anymore or try to start any type of business. And its not just dem vs. rino. I live in one of the top 10 counties in the country for growth, and our school district still had budget gaps, lay offs, ect.
curious where you would head to ?
I know you seemed to like Germany ? not sure I would want to be in Europe though ?
again just curious as a fun topic :)
when I lived in Honduras it was fun to chat with the guy whos dive shop I worked at :) crusty old seadog and the first family settled on the island
we had some fun chats about the silly US folks and he was not against it just silly in how they would back a gov so hard pay so much in taxes etc..
his sister was from New Orleans she basically moved off the islands when she was young
now Honduras is a dangerous rough country but the islands are pretty good especially when you are the guest of the #1 guy on the island !! if I was on my own ? not sure if they would be quite as safe and fun
I often wish I headed down to CostaRica when I was down that way and just went a bit farther south but headed back to Hawaii :)
no way do I want to give up on our country but I have live in a few countries my wife is from Canada and one of my buds lives back in the Caribbean and loves it ?
then again I am used to island life and mainland life drives me nuts where some think island life bugs them :)
part of me has draw back to the islands my issue my 3 and 8 year old not sure the islands has the opportunities I want for them ? and not sure I want my girl dating island boys !!!!
so most likely might stick around AZ a while longer ;)
wife and I do joke though at least we can go to Canada :) hahahaahha
one thing about the island in some ways they are in a constant depression ? meaning they seem to be able to just kinda go along tourism slows down and things get tougher but the idea of island life is often cool we have more time to relax when tourist arent coming and the beaches are less crowded and island folks tend to take care of each other care about each other and work together much better it seems than mainland folks or at least the ones I tend to read about come across etc..
they tend to be self sufficient on many things as many did not have much just 50 years ago so the idea of living off the ocean and collecting rain water is still a way of life
curious where you would head to ?
I know you seemed to like Germany ? not sure I would want to be in Europe though ?
again just curious as a fun topic :)
when I lived in Honduras it was fun to chat with the guy whos dive shop I worked at :) crusty old seadog and the first family settled on the island
we had some fun chats about the silly US folks and he was not against it just silly in how they would back a gov so hard pay so much in taxes etc..
his sister was from New Orleans she basically moved off the islands when she was young
now Honduras is a dangerous rough country but the islands are pretty good especially when you are the guest of the #1 guy on the island !! if I was on my own ? not sure if they would be quite as safe and fun
I often wish I headed down to CostaRica when I was down that way and just went a bit farther south but headed back to Hawaii :)
no way do I want to give up on our country but I have live in a few countries my wife is from Canada and one of my buds lives back in the Caribbean and loves it ?
then again I am used to island life and mainland life drives me nuts where some think island life bugs them :)
part of me has draw back to the islands my issue my 3 and 8 year old not sure the islands has the opportunities I want for them ? and not sure I want my girl dating island boys !!!!
so most likely might stick around AZ a while longer ;)
wife and I do joke though at least we can go to Canada :) hahahaahha
one thing about the island in some ways they are in a constant depression ? meaning they seem to be able to just kinda go along tourism slows down and things get tougher but the idea of island life is often cool we have more time to relax when tourist arent coming and the beaches are less crowded and island folks tend to take care of each other care about each other and work together much better it seems than mainland folks or at least the ones I tend to read about come across etc..
they tend to be self sufficient on many things as many did not have much just 50 years ago so the idea of living off the ocean and collecting rain water is still a way of life
Check out Cuenca, Ecuador. That's where I'm considering. I'm just not sure I'll be able to afford retirement in the good ole' US of A. :(
Check out Cuenca, Ecuador. That's where I'm considering. I'm just not sure I'll be able to afford retirement in the good ole' US of A. :(
Thanks :)
Have heard that Name mentioned a few times in conversations with friends :)
Doc Safari
08-14-12, 14:03
http://moneymorning.com/ob/warning-the-economic-collapse-could-begin-on-aug-1st-3/
Economist: "This Is Going To Be A Lot Worse Than 2008"
Noted expert Peter Schiff says the U.S. economy is on the verge of an economic collapse worse than 2008 and is warning investors to take immediate steps to protect themselves.
"We have a much bigger collapse coming, not just the markets, but of the economy. It's like what you're seeing in Europe right now only worse," Schiff said.
A group of prominent scientists, economists and geopolitical experts have uncovered an emerging pattern... one they believe could soon hasten an American economic catastrophe - and a radical hit to the wealth and financial security of millions Americans.
A large part of this has to do with the velocity of total credit market debt. It's part of a pattern of accelerating debt - and few have been able to track the speed of it, which is growing at a rate even faster than just a few months ago.
http://moneymorning.com/ob/warning-the-economic-collapse-could-begin-on-aug-1st-3/
The great depression is gonna look like a picnic. The current entitlement crowd has already proven that time and time again. Katrina is one example. I think the rest of the world will fare much better where the citizens actually help each other out. Compare the empty walmarts after hurricanes with the calmness of the Japanese after Fukushima actually waiting in line to pay and only taking what they need instead of taking the entire shelf leaving items for the fellow countrymen.
The exponential growth of debt can be seen in the government where on average every administration doubles the debt twice as fast.
Learn how the fractional reserve banking system works and teach your kids and grand kids so they don't allow the same mistake when we come out of dark ages 2. Buy a few paper books for them. The creature from Jekyll island, what has the government done to our money. Basically anything you can find on central banking and fractional reserve banking.
Moose-Knuckle
08-14-12, 18:52
The great depression is gonna look like a picnic. The current entitlement crowd has already proven that time and time again. Katrina is one example. I think the rest of the world will fare much better where the citizens actually help each other out. Compare the empty walmarts after hurricanes with the calmness of the Japanese after Fukushima actually waiting in line to pay and only taking what they need instead of taking the entire shelf leaving items for the fellow countrymen.
The exponential growth of debt can be seen in the government where on average every administration doubles the debt twice as fast.
Learn how the fractional reserve banking system works and teach your kids and grand kids so they don't allow the same mistake when we come out of dark ages 2. Buy a few paper books for them. The creature from Jekyll island, what has the government done to our money. Basically anything you can find on central banking and fractional reserve banking.
This.
It was a completely different world for my grandfather's generation (the Greatest Generation) that grew up during the Great Depression then went to fight and win WWII. People were self-reliant; my grandfather grew up on a family farm in Iowa and hunted what they did not grow. What they did not have they bartered for with crops they couldn’t sell. The average American house hold will sit down at the dining room table and partake in a meal whose components came from an average of 1,100 miles away.
Taking in account our current predicament if an economic event to the scale of the Great Depression would occur today it would be on the level of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Plans are in place not to save our Republic but to emerge from the ashes under global governance.
For those that haven't seen this before.
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/us_debt/us_debt.html
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/world_debt/world_debt.html
All of that debt cannot ever be repaid. It was all loaned into existence by the global banks at the heart of the libor scandal that pocketed an estimated 500 trillion in interest. The total derivatives including the banks not pictured is estimated at 1.5 quadrillion. 2008 was a hiccup. 1929 a sniffle.
Makes you look at the world differently. All the roads, bridges, the advancements in technology. What was and wasn't financed by this debt? What Does the future hold for us, our children and grandchildren?
Plans are in place not to save our Republic but to emerge from the ashes under global governance.That's the sad part. Once the US falls, it's all over. We're the only ones who stand in the way of UN global imperialism. Hence why they hate us so much all the while more than happy to receive our money and our commodities.
Belmont31R
08-14-12, 22:02
This.
It was a completely different world for my grandfather's generation (the Greatest Generation) that grew up during the Great Depression then went to fight and win WWII. People were self-reliant; my grandfather grew up on a family farm in Iowa and hunted what they did not grow. What they did not have they bartered for with crops they couldn’t sell. The average American house hold will sit down at the dining room table and partake in a meal whose components came from an average of 1,100 miles away.
Taking in account our current predicament if an economic event to the scale of the Great Depression would occur today it would be on the level of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Plans are in place not to save our Republic but to emerge from the ashes under global governance.
Eh there were a lot of soup lines back then, too. That was also a time period in which labor unions were in swing, and there was rioting in most larger cities. The 'Greatest Generation' is largely a farce, and they were the ones who ushered in most of the welfare programs we have today, and vote en masse to keep the checks flowing no matter how much it puts younger generations into debt.
Not everyone was a farmer growing their own crops and bartering for other things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exuGv3HsV-U
Kinda like in 30 years calling the OWS crowd the "the second great generation".
Taking in account our current predicament if an economic event to the scale of the Great Depression would occur today it would be on the level of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Plans are in place not to save our Republic but to emerge from the ashes under global governance.
Not likely (the global governance part -- the depression part I can believe). Any depression that would cause that sort of event to the US would also cause it around the world; especially the first world that is so dependent on factory farming and social handouts. There would be no global organization to govern.
--
Moose-Knuckle
08-15-12, 02:14
Eh there were a lot of soup lines back then, too. That was also a time period in which labor unions were in swing, and there was rioting in most larger cities. The 'Greatest Generation' is largely a farce, and they were the ones who ushered in most of the welfare programs we have today, and vote en masse to keep the checks flowing no matter how much it puts younger generations into debt.
Not everyone was a farmer growing their own crops and bartering for other things.
The progressives set the ball in motion well before WWII (why was there a WWII to begin with ;)) and you’re kidding yourself if you think people of yester year didn't have more sand than the welfare bums/entitlement class/trust fund babies of today. The day to day mundane tasks were much more arduous. Women back then birthed at home without anesthesia or antibiotics. They would ring a chicken's neck and dress it for supper that same day. A work day was from sun up to sun down, no such thing as a “40 hour work week”. People today sit on their ass in front of a computer, eat their meals out of boxes, and piss and moan cause someone at the office made them all butt hurt. And if you were a factory worker back then you didn’t have the plush hourly wage and safe working environment that the UAW of today enjoys.
Kinda like in 30 years calling the OWS crowd the "the second great generation".
So your're saying these guys . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/occupyburnusflag.jpg
. . . are second in line behind these guys . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/IwoJima1.jpg
. . . WTF over :confused:
Moose-Knuckle
08-15-12, 02:27
Not likely (the global governance part -- the depression part I can believe).
Down the rabbit hole we go. . .
Any depression that would cause that sort of event to the US would also cause it around the world; especially the first world that is so dependent on factory farming and social handouts.
Precisely! This is why the fiat based Central Banking System was implemented. This is nothing new, the bankers have been hard at work on this since the conception of our Republic. Read up on Thomas Jefferson's warnings of Central Banks. Read the book Caeser25 mentioned. The more you brush up on European banking history the more you will see the bigger picture.
There would be no global organization to govern.
It's the singular reason for all of this.
Down the rabbit hole we go. . .
Precisely! This is why the fiat based Central Banking System was implemented. This is nothing new, the bankers have been hard at work on this since the conception of our Republic. Read up on Thomas Jefferson's warnings of Central Banks. Read the book Caeser25 mentioned. The more you brush up on European banking history the more you will see the bigger picture.
It's the singular reason for all of this.
There is a difference between what they might LIKE to happen, or have as a goal, and what will actually happen.
If there is a major depression as has been spoken of, the whole world will collapse and there will be no global organization capable of governing.
The statists wet dreams could come true in terms of their planning, but it won't change the fact that they won't have the means to exercise the control they may crave.
I am not supporting fiat currency or central banks. I am just speaking to the reality of what a collapse means physically.
--
Moose-Knuckle
08-15-12, 03:20
There is a difference between what they might LIKE to happen, or have as a goal, and what will actually happen.
If there is a major depression as has been spoken of, the whole world will collapse and there will be no global organization capable of governing.
The statists wet dreams could come true in terms of their planning, but it won't change the fact that they won't have the means to exercise the control they may crave.
I am not supporting fiat currency or central banks. I am just speaking to the reality of what a collapse means physically.
--
I hear yeah Chad. Since the beginning some despot has wanted the whole enchilada to themselves; Nimrod, Alexander, Nero, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, et al. and to date it never pans out. But that doesn’t mean the bastards wont' try.
Belmont31R
08-15-12, 03:51
The progressives set the ball in motion well before WWII (why was there a WWII to begin with ;)) and you’re kidding yourself if you think people of yester year didn't have more sand than the welfare bums/entitlement class/trust fund babies of today. The day to day mundane tasks were much more arduous. Women back then birthed at home without anesthesia or antibiotics. They would ring a chicken's neck and dress it for supper that same day. A work day was from sun up to sun down, no such thing as a “40 hour work week”. People today sit on their ass in front of a computer, eat their meals out of boxes, and piss and moan cause someone at the office made them all butt hurt. And if you were a factory worker back then you didn’t have the plush hourly wage and safe working environment that the UAW of today enjoys.
So your're saying these guys . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/occupyburnusflag.jpg
. . . are second in line behind these guys . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/IwoJima1.jpg
. . . WTF over :confused:
What people had during the GD has nothing to do with what people have today regarding the post you quoted.
Your post made it sound as if people just bargained for stuff or grew their own food to get through it, and thats not what happened. There were major riots and deaths as a result of the GD in most larger cities. It wasn't just a self reliant populace who pulled up their boot straps and got through it. No doubt some did...but many did not just the same as today. There were soup lines all across the country, riots with deaths, ect.
You should also look at FDR, who got elected to FOUR terms, and makes Obama look like a tee-baller when it comes to big government when put into perspective. In the roaring 20's taxes were cut so low and government was slashed it led to the greatest decade of American advancement in history.
If you want to see why type of person these "greatest generation" elected look at the 2nd Bill of Rights which was put forward in a State of the Union address FDR gave. Its been a Bible of our current crop of Democrats for decades. FDR was elected FOUR times, and even prior to his 2nd Bill of Rights speech he had various notable items such as the War on the Supreme Court (which led to the NFA, Social Security, and a host of other big government rulings), & the New Deal.
If you don't think Democrats are keenly aware of FDR look to John Kerry's remarks on implementing a 2nd New Deal, and if you look at the program its almost word for word what the "Stimulus" was. Shovel ready jobs is not a new term.
You don't really need to insert WW2 photography into the debate. While I am not an expert on WW2 compared to a lot of people I'd exercise risk in using one war to judge an entire era of American history. I'm certainly not trying to take away anything from our vets in that regard, and I wouldn't be here otherwise.
However every generation has "their" war, and I don't think its fair to say WW2 era vets are the "Greatest Generation" while ignoring everything else. I'm a combat vet, and don't think I really did anything special. But the young people of this country stepped up to this generations war, and the military has had no problem filling its ranks. You can go to all sorts of stats the military has kept, and a modern 11B spends way more time in an active combat zone today as they did during WW2. But thats not my point. My point is that generation filled the rolls the country asked for, and so did my generation.
To be honest I don't really care about how hard child birth was before. While I enjoy modern medicine Im not going to sit here and self loathe because people had it harder birthing a child 75 years ago. Thats like asking me to loathe over slavery which was entirely out of my control just as child birth was. Just like I don't expect people to loathe over my kids births or whatever 75 years from now when technology is way more advanced, and birthing is way easier.
Its like feeling bad when I put Window's 7 on a new machine because some 1930's guy didn't have a PC.
So while yes, WW2 was a major event of that era it doesn't really excuse everything else that happened nor the people who the elected who instituted the laws we still have today. I am 28 and have to deal with the NFA, GCA, and MG ban, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and a host of other socialist welfare programs all which were enacted well before I was of voting age.
These same people will vote for Obama because his people show themselves being pushed off a cliff.
I really don't care what all these old people have to say. Im not going to fund their retirement because they rode the gravy train for 6 decades and left me with a 16 trillion dollar debt. If it was up to me I would stop the checks this very second. Welfare is so disgusting, and the greatest generation are the ones who voted it in. Their kids are the baby boomers who are going to grow the budget so large I wouldn't be surprised if the debt was 20 billion in a few years. **** them, **** their baby boomer off spring, and I'll vote for the MF'er who will cut their checks off TODAY if I could.
...I really don't care what all these old people have to say. Im not going to fund their retirement because they rode the gravy train for 6 decades and left me with a 16 trillion dollar debt. If it was up to me I would stop the checks this very second. Welfare is so disgusting, and the greatest generation are the ones who voted it in. Their kids are the baby boomers who are going to grow the budget so large I wouldn't be surprised if the debt was 20 billion in a few years. **** them, **** their baby boomer off spring, and I'll vote for the MF'er who will cut their checks off TODAY if I could.
Amen.
About 75% of the older folks I've known who collected a Socialist Security check every month were worth over a quarter million bucks, and had no real "need" for that govt check every month. Yes, they paid in, just like all of us... But they were sold a bill of goods and told it was a "trust fund" when it was actually nothing but a tax that the govt spent faster than they got (buying votes).
If nothing else, "means testing" is a no brainer, but it's political suicide, so I'd guess politicians will drive this ship straight to the bottom before they'll excercise any common sense to fix it.
I hear yeah Chad. Since the beginning some despot has wanted the whole enchilada to themselves; Nimrod, Alexander, Nero, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, et al. and to date it never pans out. But that doesn’t mean the bastards wont' try.
I fully expect that a bunch of bastards are trying. We should just remember that want and achieve are two different stories.
Back on the original topic:
Hyperinflation and Kotlikoff's Figures
http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1186.html
This is a VERY interesting article with a perspective I had not really considered before. In a nutshell: The Fed controls the money supply; the Fed is owned by private banks; private banks don't want debts owed to them paid with worthless hyperinflated currency, thus breaking the entire banking system and still not erasing long-term obligations; therefore hyperinflation is very unlikely... and eventual default is very likely.
(yes the source is a partisan website)
Why Governments Hate Gold
http://politicaloutcast.com/2012/08/why-governments-hate-gold/
--
montanadave
08-15-12, 11:30
If nothing else, "means testing" is a no brainer, but it's political suicide, so I'd guess politicians will drive this ship straight to the bottom before they'll excercise any common sense to fix it.
I'll vote for the first guy to have the balls to endorse some form of mean testing for both Social Security and Medicare. Because, as you state, it is a complete "no brainer."
*cue sound of crickets chirping*
"Romney? Romney?"
"Obama? Obama?"
"Bueller? Bueller?"
Failure of leadership right across the board.
I'll vote for the first guy to have the balls to endorse some form of mean testing for both Social Security and Medicare. Because, as you state, it is a complete "no brainer."
*cue sound of crickets chirping*
"Romney? Romney?"
"Obama? Obama?"
"Bueller? Bueller?"
Failure of leadership right across the board.
Not really. It is not "leadership" to play circular firing squad by advocating such a thing.
The populace's attitude needs to change. The real failure in leadership is the purposeful stoking of the fears of the populace and stoking of the greed of the populace that their hand outs might end or go away. And also the failure of the media to bring the issues and discuss them in an honest and fair way.
If I were Romney I wouldn't call for means testing either. I would however work to bring the discussion to the disastrous straights that will be in the future if we don't bring entitlement growth to a halt. Once we could get that far, and the attitudes would change, you might eventually start to talk about means testing. (I am actually for elimination of the entitlements all together, not means testing, but means testing is probably a step along the way to it and I would definitely support it).
--
Doc Safari
08-15-12, 11:54
Back on the original topic:
Hyperinflation and Kotlikoff's Figures
http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1186.html
This is a VERY interesting article with a perspective I had not really considered before. In a nutshell: The Fed controls the money supply; the Fed is owned by private banks; private banks don't want debts owed to them paid with worthless hyperinflated currency, thus breaking the entire banking system and still not erasing long-term obligations; therefore hyperinflation is very unlikely... and eventual default is very likely.
Interesting article. Frankly, I worry more about strings being pulled for the US dollar to no longer be the world's reserve currency. I also foresee attempts to trade oil in another currency besides US dollars, althought at present the dollar still is perceived to be the strongest currency (probably why it hasn't happened already).
That author's contention that default is inevitable dovetails with other articles I've read/commentators I've heard over the past few years.
Just this morning someone on the radio was lamenting that the next big bubbles could be either the consumer debt bubble collapsing, or the student load debt bursting, or both.
montanadave
08-15-12, 12:06
I understand what you're saying, Chad, and realize the political liabilities associated with taking a clearly defined position on a such a volatile issue.
But we can't keep playing hot potato with these long-term fiscal issues, simply hoping that they blow up on the other guy's watch so we can shift the blame and exploit the situation.
While my flicker of a flame is fading fast (alliterative skills, however, are still intact), I still have some faith that the American people would respond positively if a leader emerged who actually talked to us like adults, spoke the cold, hard truth, and called upon the nation to make the necessary, shared sacrifices to right the ship of state.
Instead, we get another shit slinging contest while ducking any substantive and specific discussion. Both campaigns are a ****ing embarrassment.
...Frankly, I worry more about strings being pulled for the US dollar to no longer be the world's reserve currency. I also foresee attempts to trade oil in another currency besides US dollars...
Exactly! The one big hole I see in North's argument is that the money supply is already inflated. The reason we don't feel it so much is because the dollar is still being used to buy oil and other products, as a reserve currency (because of the petro-dollar deal), so it's still worth something because people agree to pretend it's worth something.
There are plenty of signs that countries and people will not want the US dollar for very much longer - China selling off a lot of its dollar reserves and taking delivery of physical gold to hold in reserve; Treasury auctions not having any buyers (except the Fed); China and India making deals to buy oil with gold; China, Russia, et al trying to get the SDR deal going as an alternative form of reserve rather than a single nation's currency, as well as OPEC nations making noises that they would like to see that kind of thing happen...
The thing that I've been thinking is that it's like everybody is slowly moving out of the dollar and watching each other like hawks, hoping nobody does anything to set off a panic before they can cash out and use those dollars to buy something solid before they become worthless.
When the dollar goes, everything else will go down with it as this collapse is designed to by the collapse model followed. An electronic one world currency is what is wanted and agreed upon. Solves all the problems of hyperinflation, debasement of money, control of the masses etc. If so what use is gold then to the central banks and countries currently buying and hoarding unless they had their fingers crossed behind their backs and don't see it actually happening.
I understand what you're saying, Chad, and realize the political liabilities associated with taking a clearly defined position on a such a volatile issue.
But we can't keep playing hot potato with these long-term fiscal issues, simply hoping that they blow up on the other guy's watch so we can shift the blame and exploit the situation.
While my flicker of a flame is fading fast (alliterative skills, however, are still intact), I still have some faith that the American people would respond positively if a leader emerged who actually talked to us like adults, spoke the cold, hard truth, and called upon the nation to make the necessary, shared sacrifices to right the ship of state.
Instead, we get another shit slinging contest while ducking any substantive and specific discussion. Both campaigns are a ****ing embarrassment.
I agree that the political hot potato is not a good avenue to be on. That is why I mentioned the real leadership is working to create an environment where you CAN address the issue. I think that Ryan's budget is the first step to doing that. If you can get people to realize that we ARE in DEEP DOO-DOO, and that we need to change course, then you can start to bring up things like mean's testing... But you have to get the buy-in first that the problem exists. You and I know it does, but joe-blow out there probably doesn't (at least want to admit it).
---
Doesn't look like the gov't thinks things will turn out well, based on all the ammo purchases and whatnot, spread across multiple agencies.
Now they're apparently trying to hide it:
http://www.infowars.com/dhs-classifies-ammo-purchase-following-controversy/
Yep, infowars but it's factual and it's the source available so deal with it. I don't like them either but sometimes you have to make exceptions in order to share the news.
I don't know... Infowars usually backs up their raw info pretty well. The conclusions they jump to are sometimes pretty farfetched, though.
This whole ammo purchase thing is mostly a non-issue that they're trying to blow out of proportion. DHS covers Border Patrol, and you know there are a SHITLOAD of BP agents across the U.S. Imagine each of them going to 3 or 4 day carbine class and the ammo numbers Infowars is citing begin to look pretty un-scary.
edited to add - I live on the border and there are probably about 300 BP agents within 100 mile radius of where I'm sitting right now. If 2,000 rds is allotted each of those guys for this year, that adds up to 600,000 rds for just one agency in my little mostly empty stretch of Texas.
Its the end of the fiscal year and there's still money in their budget, so they're finding a way to spend it.
That's a fair point. But the IRS and the NWS (a part of NOAA)? What do they need large allotments of ammo for?
Back on the original topic:
Hyperinflation and Kotlikoff's Figures
http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1186.html
This is a VERY interesting article with a perspective I had not really considered before. In a nutshell: The Fed controls the money supply; the Fed is owned by private banks; private banks don't want debts owed to them paid with worthless hyperinflated currency, thus breaking the entire banking system and still not erasing long-term obligations; therefore hyperinflation is very unlikely... and eventual default is very likely.
This article is almost 2 years old (10/01/2010), but it also goes into good detail about what hyperinflation is and why it's unlikely to happen here in the U.S.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/will-we-have-hyperinflation-america
Every government agency either has it's own protective police force or a federal police force provided by another federal agency, or a contracted police force providing force protection that is overseen and managed by the government. NOAA is no different except they also have agents who are doing things like the raid mentioned in this article.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203518404577094861497383678.html
It's only 46,000 hollowpoints spread across an entire agency.
When I lived in Boulder Co in the mid 70s, the gun store i bought my black powder from sold the FBI some flare guns. They were for the NCAR or NOAA or University of Colorado researchers who were doing research in Alaska in salmon spawning. They were for protection from the others who were interested in salmon spawning. They were teaching the people to load a flare for the first shot and then put a 12 gauge slug for the next shot at the bears that were objecting to the researchers presence during the feeding session in the river.
Never did hear the outcome of that one.
It seems to me that the Feds are buying guns and ammo outside the military all the time, just not as well publisized.
Every government agency either has it's own protective police force or a federal police force provided by another federal agency, or a contracted police force providing force protection that is overseen and managed by the government. NOAA is no different except they also have agents who are doing things like the raid mentioned in this article.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203518404577094861497383678.html
It's only 46,000 hollowpoints spread across an entire agency.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/social-security-administration-explains-plan-buy-174000-hollow-point-bullets
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.