View Full Version : Which For Home Defense: Three Choices
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 18:41
I'm trying to decide which would be best for home defense. The three choices are my Glock 19 Gen3, HK P30 LEM (9mm), or S&W 1911. There are pros and cons to each choice, but I would like some outside opinions. I'm sure I'm missing some points, but this is all I could think of right now.
I will be attaching a Streamlight TLR-2S (light/laser combo) and all three pistols have rails. The pistol will be kept in a biometric safe next to my bed and they will obviously be fully loaded for very long periods of time (possibly months). Right now all three are in a big safe in the basement and I'm using a shotgun for home defense in the biometric safe. I think a pistol should be in there too.
I'm kinda leaning towards the 1911. I'm currently using Chip McCormick Power Mags. Can 1911 mags be fully loaded for months like Glock mags without issues?
Glock 19 Gen3
Pros: reliability, mags are dependable and can be loaded down forever, simple controls
Cons: I've heard attaching a light to the rail can cause functioning problems, 9mm
S&W 1911
Pro: 45 ACP man-stopper, I can shoot it more accurately than the others, feels the best, best trigger ever
Cons: only holds 8 rounds, not the MOST reliable modern design (I haven't had problems...yet), manual safety, not sure how long I can store a fully loaded mag, 1911 not designed for hollow points (I haven't had problems yet)
HK P30 LEM 9mm
Pros: It's an HK:D, reliable design, good mags, good controls, awesome grip feel
Cons: 9mm, not used to the LEM trigger yet, not sure if it has a history of problems with lights attached to the rail like the Glock.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fjYVENBcXZY/T_r2lWO1yXI/AAAAAAAAB8Y/2sgqtw1Erkc/s800/G19FZ1.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-blz7qu_xhTQ/UAcvTkM5TWI/AAAAAAAACEU/jl60Y0f017U/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hp8AiTgY7HE/TFndvPOUkCI/AAAAAAAAAPo/vYoSQ5w1-Nc/s800/2010-08-04%252017.19.19.jpg
1911.. Just because that's what I'm most familiar with.. Ron
I have never heard of the 9mm Glocks having issues with an attached light, only the .40cals.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 18:50
I have never heard of the 9mm Glocks having issues with an attached light, only the .40cals.
It was the Glock 22 most associated with the light malfunction, but that's only because law enforcement uses that model the most often. They are all made of the same material, so I don't see why it can't happen to the G19 as well.
I have never heard of the 9mm Glocks having issues with an attached light, only the .40cals.
I thought only was 40's as well. No worries, I like the light in my hand vs light on my gun in home defence situation anyway.
Home defense isn't just about which gun. It's got to be where you need it when you need it. You might consider having multiple guns stashed in different places, like one near the front door one near the back door, one in the bedroom, one in the kitchen, etc. You can buy 4 or 5 G19s for the price of one high end 1911.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 18:56
Home defense isn't just about which gun. It's got to be where you need it when you need it. You might consider having multiple guns stashed in different places, like one near the front door one near the back door, one in the bedroom, one in the kitchen, etc. You can buy 4 or 5 G19s for the price of one high end 1911.
I have two small kids in the house, so I want to keep them in a centralized safe place.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 18:58
Forgot to ask....how many rounds down range equal safe reliability? 200-300? I've shot all these WITHOUT the light attached. I need to test with the light attached.
I voted G19 because I see it has night sights on it. Plus you said you are not completely confident with the P30 trigger.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 19:20
I voted G19 because I see it has night sights on it. Plus you said you are not completely confident with the P30 trigger.
Thanks for voting. Also forgot to mention all three pistols have night sights.
I voted 1911, because you said you were leaning that way.
The magazines will be fine if left loaded. It's the constant movement of the spring that wears them out, not their static condition.
If you like your 1911, and it performs well, then use it.
I'm voting Glock. If you have never been in a sticky situation before, you'll appreciate the point-and-shoot characteristics of the Glock. By that I mean, you have no safety to worry about flicking off in the heat of the moment when your adrenaline is flooding your body, reducing your fine motor skills.
Glock 19....what more do you need?
Is this purchase only for home defense or do you plan on carrying the gun as well?
If youre looking for just HD have you thought about a good used 12 gauge pump shotgun? This will of course depend on the size of your house as guns are easier to maneuver inside.
Besides that if youre comparing 9mm fmj vs 45 fmj then the 45 wins out in the "man stopper" however, modern hollow points bullet design pretty much eliminates the gap between 9 & 45 and with the 9 you get more firepower and less reloading.
As for your gun choices both the G19 and HK are good, reliable guns. If you already own a Glock then stay with it and buy more practice ammo instead of spending the $$ on an HK. Same if you own the HK and not the Glock. I own the HK USP9 with the LEM trigger and thats the only type of trigger i like in an HK. For the G19 you can use 15/17/33 round mags.
Or if you really want the 45 you can split the difference and get a Glock 21. 15 rounds of 45. Might be a bit heavy for carry.
Id stay away from the 1911 as a bed side HD gun until you get a lot of practice on it. Both the Glock and HK are loaded and ready. If something happens at night you just grab and go however the 1911 has safeties you must remember to disengage before firing and if you're getting up from dead sleep, still discombobulated, and grabbing your gun you have a million other things to worry/think about without also having to remember the safety.
One more thing to mention. If youre covering the BG with your 1911 and you dont realize that your finger is on the trigger while the thumb safety is engaged and you disengage it, the gun will fire whether or not you intended to shot.
Remember K.I.S.S
I'd say 400 or so rounds of various fmj and another 100 or so of hollow points you intend to use
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Rattlehead
07-18-12, 19:42
Forgot to ask....how many rounds down range equal safe reliability? 200-300? I've shot all these WITHOUT the light attached. I need to test with the light attached.
How many rounds have you shot through each gun?
I'd love to help but its got to come down to which pistol you are more comfortable with. Which one have you trained with the most? More importantly, which one have you trained with the most, most recently?
For me, I love HKs, but the answer is the G19 because I've got the most trigger time with it (of your choices). If I need to fire a weapon in self defense I NEED to be 100% accountable for each and every round, especially if it is my home and my family is nearby, not to mention legal ramifications of firing my weapon. Personally, I am certain I am most able to accomplish this with the G19 over your other options because I have trained and competed with the G19. Features, lights, night sights, ammo, trigger type and weight and whatever else are all an afterthought to training time and proficiency.
I think if you look at it from that angle you will be most honest with yourself and your abilities and make the best choice.
Best wishes.
Well, it if was me, I'd nix the 1911 right off the bat, and replace with either a HK45c or a S&W M&P45..either fullsize or midsize.. Either the HK, or the Smith will work right out of the box, both will feed JHP's, Both are well known for their accuracy. I also have some experience with a LEM trigger (I have a P-2000 with a "light" LEM) The LEM's aren't for everybody.. Some people do well with them after a short learning period, and others (myself included) struggle with them.It took me a long time to get decent with mine,seeing how I haven't shot it in about a year, it'd probably take awhile to pick it up again.Without a doubt striker fired pistols are much easier to learn, and do well with.That all said, the P-30 is a excellant pistol, very reliable and very accurate. The Glock also is a good choice, However, current manfactured Glock gen3 19's 17's ARE experiencing problems with the extractors, (there's a 50+ page thread here, somewhere on this board on this subject) They are throwing cases back into shooter's faces, stovepipes, etc, So far, Glock dosen't seem to be able to fix it, But, Randy Lee just may. Apex Tactical is currently beta testing extractors they designed, so far they seem to work very well. Hopefully they'll be out soon. I'd keep my eyes out for a older Glock (gen 2,1, )They should be reliable..and very reasonably priced.
So, of the 3 you're looking at, I'd consider,
A. HK-P30..No problems, But I'd look hard for a LEM, pass on standard DA/SA unless you're willing to spend time learning the system.
B. HK45c, or S&W M&P45.. with the Hk the same caveat above applies here also..you're not giving up much with the S&W.. 10 rnd mags, and very accurate, Both very reliable out of the box.
C. Glock..Good all around pistols, However, they currently do have problems with extractors,(read the thread on extractor issues before you buy) Hopefully soon, Apex Tactical will make that a thing of the past,I really like my G19, It's about perfect for a CCW, but it too,has extractor issues, I'm not giving up on it, I'll wait for the Apex extractor... Price wise, you can just about buy 2 glocks or M&P45's for the price of a HK..
Something else to consider, a Walther PPQ (9mm) very much like a P-30, almost the same controls, very accurate,reliable, Has a outstanding trigger, and very reasonably priced.. Striker fired, has no known issues other than expensive mags (but then again, so are alot of HK mags)
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 19:51
Is this purchase only for home defense or do you plan on carrying the gun as well?
If youre looking for just HD have you thought about a good used 12 gauge pump shotgun? This will of course depend on the size of your house as guns are easier to maneuver inside.
Besides that if youre comparing 9mm fmj vs 45 fmj then the 45 wins out in the "man stopper" however, modern hollow points bullet design pretty much eliminates the gap between 9 & 45 and with the 9 you get more firepower and less reloading.
As for your gun choices both the G19 and HK are good, reliable guns. If you already own a Glock then stay with it and buy more practice ammo instead of spending the $$ on an HK. Same if you own the HK and not the Glock. I own the HK USP9 with the LEM trigger and thats the only type of trigger i like in an HK. For the G19 you can use 15/17/33 round mags.
Or if you really want the 45 you can split the difference and get a Glock 21. 15 rounds of 45. Might be a bit heavy for carry.
Id stay away from the 1911 as a bed side HD gun until you get a lot of practice on it. Both the Glock and HK are loaded and ready. If something happens at night you just grab and go however the 1911 has safeties you must remember to disengage before firing and if you're getting up from dead sleep, still discombobulated, and grabbing your have a million other things to worry/think about without also having to remember the safety.
One more thing to mention. If youre covering the BG with your 1911 and you dont realize that your finger is on the trigger while the thumb safety is engaged and you disengage it, the gun will fire whether or not you intended to shot.
Remember K.I.S.S
I'd say 400 or so rounds of various fmj and another 100 or so of hollow points you intend to use
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
My most likely scenario would be me waking up from a dead sleep due to the security alarm going off.
This is my other option, but I still want a good pistol option.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e4vHQgzr-BQ/T6LxwYL56NI/AAAAAAAABmM/jMvJTz9YK7g/s800/KSG2.jpg
F-Trooper05
07-18-12, 19:51
Which one do you attend training classes with? Because I'd vote for that one.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 19:52
How many rounds have you shot through each gun?
a few hundred through each.
Rattlehead
07-18-12, 19:55
a few hundred through each.
Shoot them more then decide for yourself.
Looking in from the outside I'd say take the Glock 19.
OP, you said that you have fired all the guns in question. I would say that it would come down to which one you fire best, and has had the least problems with your chosen round. I personally voted for the Glock as that is the gun I have had most experience with and I feel comfortable with. The Glock is a simple design to learn and shoot well; it also is the easiest of the three to shoot well with the least amount of experience. Have you experienced any ejection issues with the G19? If not I'd go with it.
If it were my choice, I'd pick the 19. I've used my 19 and 17 in a few classes with a X-300 attached and haven't had any problems to date.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 20:05
OP, you said that you have fired all the guns in question. I would say that it would come down to which one you fire best, and has had the least problems with your chosen round. I personally voted for the Glock as that is the gun I have had most experience with and I feel comfortable with. The Glock is a simple design to learn and shoot well; it also is the easiest of the three to shoot well with the least amount of experience. Have you experienced any ejection issues with the G19? If not I'd go with it.
My G19 Gen3 is one of the newer ones built, but I had the ejector changed to the 30274 ejector (I've been reading the threads) b/c I did have a few cases to the face. So far, no more cases to the face.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 20:08
The Glock also is a good choice, However, current manfactured Glock gen3 19's 17's ARE experiencing problems with the extractors, (there's a 50+ page thread here, somewhere on this board on this subject) They are throwing cases back into shooter's faces, stovepipes, etc, So far, Glock dosen't seem to be able to fix it, But, Randy Lee just may. Apex Tactical is currently beta testing extractors they designed, so far they seem to work very well. Hopefully they'll be out soon.
I'd be VERY interested in the extractor. Where can I find out more about it? I'm assuming it's NOT a MIM extractor?
My G19 Gen3 is one of the newer ones built, but I had the ejector changed to the 30274 ejector (I've been reading the threads) b/c I did have a few cases to the face. So far, no more cases to the face.
Nice, like I said before, if you shoot the 19 well, that would be my gun. Plus the one you pictured looked really nice!
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 20:13
Nice, like I said before, if you shoot the 19 well, that would be my gun. Plus the one you pictured looked really nice!
Thanks. It's a FailZero EXO edition.
My vote was for the Glock 19. I keep a Glock 21SF handy for home defense. I have a couple of 1911's but prefer the simplicity and capacity of the Glock.
This poll makes as much sense to me as asking which color is better - red or blue?
It seems like a really subjective and personal choice, in which case, there is not point in asking others for their opinions.
Which one do you trust the most and shoot the best? I think your poll results reflect that the G19 fits that bill for the majority who have responded. However, that has no bearing on where YOU are at.
I'd be VERY interested in the extractor. Where can I find out more about it? I'm assuming it's NOT a MIM extractor?
Pg2 of this forum, Thread titled "Glock extractor issues" something like that, It's a 50 + pg thread, but info on Apex's extractor,are throughout the thread, and pics are in the last 4-5 pgs..(I think) As far as I know, this is a machined extractor, and from what I've read, works with either ejector. There are a few people currently beta testing, with so far very good results.. Estimated cost is $60
I have a x300 on my glock 19 gen 3 for like two years and have put thousands upon thousands of rounds through the pistol with no problems what so ever.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 22:28
Pg2 of this forum, Thread titled "Glock extractor issues" something like that, It's a 50 + pg thread, but info on Apex's extractor,are throughout the thread, and pics are in the last 4-5 pgs..(I think) As far as I know, this is a machined extractor, and from what I've read, works with either ejector. There are a few people currently beta testing, with so far very good results.. Estimated cost is $60
Thanks. How far and at what position on the clock is brass supposed to be ejecting ideally?
Heavy Metal
07-18-12, 22:32
It was the Glock 22 most associated with the light malfunction, but that's only because law enforcement uses that model the most often. They are all made of the same material, so I don't see why it can't happen to the G19 as well.
...becaue it is a slide velocity dependent issue and the 9mm being a different caliber, the one the pistol was originally engineered for, does not have these issues and apparently, the 4th gen .40s no longer have them either.
I was expecting to read through this thread and see a bunch of warnings against using a biometric safe. Unless the opinion on them has changed in the past few years, they're not recommended. If you have bloody/dirty hands your pistol is going to be as useful as a toothpick in a knife fight.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-18-12, 22:39
...becaue it is a slide velocity dependent issue and the 9mm being a different caliber, the one the pistol was originally engineered for, does not have these issues and apparently, the 4th gen .40s no longer have them either.
Good to hear! Now I can stop worrying.
Nobody can really decide what you keep by your bed for you.
I hate to recommend equipment until I see how an individual performs.
IME, once good fundamentals are ingrained, and proficiency is achieved and maintained, the choice of equipment doesn't really matter as long as it's reliable and suitable for the purpose.
Go for one, sell the others to finance professional training classes with it. Software over hardware!
I have two small kids in the house, so I want to keep them in a centralized safe place.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/676336/gunvault-microvault-personal-electronic-safe-11-x-8-x-2-black
Magic_Salad0892
07-19-12, 03:22
Why is 9x19mm considered a con?
Any of the three should be able to do the job just fine, assuming they are reliable and that you are proficient in their operation. Trying to get proficient with three such different pistols (grip angle, manual safety, mag release, trigger operation) will be more difficult than picking one type of gun and concentrating on that. And speaking of proficiency, have you gotten any training?
If you're not fully confident in your operation of the LEM trigger, then I would say that puts the P30 at a disadvantage unless/until you train intensively on that system. There is a possibility of failing to disengage the 1911 safety under extreme stress. As far as I know, the Glock/light issues have only been with .40 cal guns. You said that your G19 is a newer one; IMO that makes it suspect in terms of reliability until you have put many many more rds through it. Ordinarily I'd need at least 1000 stoppage free rds through a handgun in order to trust it, but some newer 9mm Glock issues, according to some reports here, are only appearing after the gun has fired 2K rds or thereabouts.
With only a few hundred rds through each gun, I'd say that none has proven its reliability yet. Of the three I'd say the P30 has the best chance of proving reliable.
This isn't directly related to the question you asked, but I'll bring it up anyway. What have you done to harden your home, to make it more resistant to an intruder? I'm talking high quality locks, hinges, door reinforcers, and strikeplates on all exterior doors, motion sensor lighting, etc. You can get good info on this from local PD/Sheriff's Office or from the internet. If an intruder is deterred from trying to get into your home, or tries and fails to gain entry because your home was sufficiently hardened to dissuade/prevent it, then you don't have to fight him, with all the risk (death, injury, property damage, criminal and civil liability, emotional trauma, hearing loss, etc)that involves. If you've already done any of these things, then you're way ahead of most people.
Beat Trash
07-19-12, 08:38
I strongly suggest you do some research on ammunition. The 45 acp is not a "man stopper". No firearm that can be held with one had is. The concept of "a one shot stop" is just that a concept. It's not a guarantee. Do a search on defensive ammunition. There's nothing wrong with the modern 9mm defensive ammunition choices.
It's all about shot placement.
Any of the three choices you have in your poll would make a good HD gun. You need to go out and shoot the guns some more.
To really answer your question, go attend a training class. Learn to shoot under stress. Shoot while moving. Shoot one handed. Shoot from unconventional positions and from behind cover. What may be a good gun to go out and shoot a couple of boxes of ammunition on a plinking range suddenly starts seem lacking when you push the envelope a bit.
The LEM trigger would be much less of a disadvantage for "threat management" AKA holding someone at gunpoint until the police arrive.
What may be a good choice for a defensive gun for one person may not be the best choice for another. Only you can really answer this question.
It would be kind of like if I were to ask the following question: If given a choice of sleeping with a super model, which would be the best choice, the blond, the brunette, or the red head? (and No, all three at the same time is not an option!)
Why are you looking at pistols for home defense?
My choice would be a shotgun with some sort of light rail. Pistols in general are not the best choice to incapacitate a person. A rifle would be a better choice as well. Only you can decide what is going to be best for you and your situation.
I suggest doing some reading on the forum and especially the ballistics section. Read the recommendations Doc provides. Also search and look into the SME section. I believe there was a question similar to yours. You literally have experts with vast real world knowledge that you can tap into.
One important thing to take into consideration is who you listen to for advice. There are a lot of great members here, but I would not take advice from random people about a potential serious matter.
P.S- forgot to add that whatever pistol you already have(I assume the g19) if it has proven reliable and trustworthy to you, use it. It really does not matter what you choose as long as it is a quality proven gun. It is all personal preference and about the features you want.
Just did a course with a gen3 19 with a light. 800 rounds. No problems. Used a comp tac holster.
I'd go with the P30 because I don't mind 9mm's and I'm very use to shooting my HK45.
HKs have no problems with lights attached. Furthermore, I think those problems were with .40 Glocks with lights attached, not 9mm's, But I could be wrong.
Microalign
07-19-12, 11:08
The real problem is that you've picked a box with three handguns in it, and aren't thinking outside the box. Handguns suck for self defense. The home is one of those places where you aren't limited by carry restictions that force you to use a pistol. An 870 with tac light, loaded with Federal #1 buck would be far more effective. Especially for close quarters combat where the risk of bodily harm to you is far greater if you don't end it quickly.
Littlelebowski
07-19-12, 11:15
".45ACP man stopper" :blink:
I didn't vote. This is very personal choice, just like a carry gun. But it maybe used after a quick wake up from a deep sleep, in the dark with loved ones around. My Colt M1917 .45 is at the bottom of a drawer that ensures I'll have to get up. The cell phone and Surefire light are at arms reach. Six shots of .45 ACP and a cool looking blue steel bludgeon...
The old which would be best question can be hard to answer sometimes. Best For you, for me, for her, for everybody, different situations that may involve more than one person, etc. Ammo cost, gun and extra magazines cost, comfort level with the cocked and locked or striker fired action, maintenance, etc. "I" would go with a G19 that has been proven and works. Or I guess if you can wait a year or two, you could check out the striker fired P30 that is suppose to come out.
Is there another person in the house that may need to use the gun besides yourself ? Are they proficient with it ?
In my home, there are several of one type. The wife runs them proficiently, and there is no variance in ammo, or feeding devices, or grip frames, etc.
Commonality. Simplify.
$ .02
Microalign
07-19-12, 12:03
I didn't vote. This is very personal choice, just like a carry gun. But it maybe used after a quick wake up from a deep sleep, in the dark with loved ones around. My Colt M1917 .45 is at the bottom of a drawer that ensures I'll have to get up. The cell phone and Surefire light are at arms reach. Six shots of .45 ACP and a cool looking blue steel bludgeon...
Yep. Keep your weapon away from your bed, and keep your bedroom locked. You need time to wake up and get your bearings before grabbing a gun. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've done some pretty crazy stuff in my sleep. I worked one shooting where a guy kept his pistol on his night stand next to his phone. The phone rang, but with the confusion of waking from a dream he picked up his pistol instead and shot himself in the head. The brain does some weird things when it tries to combine a dream state and reality. There are also many other cases of husbands accidentally shooting their wives or children in the night because they had just woken up. Keep your bedroom locked, as this will give you a temporary safety perimeter and buy you some time to get ready for a possible fight. If you have kids, then work in an audible alarm or something for access points to the sleeping areas.
I voted Glock 19, even though I don't own a G19. I own 2 Glock's a G22 RMR'd by Mark & G27 in .40. Never really cared for 9mm.
Plus like other have said a Remington 870 would be what I would grab first in a home defense situtation. Or a Mossberg 590 A1.
Or a S-12 8" with a MD-20rd. Drum filled with 00 buck.:D
None of the Above
Why? Because your questions would be readily answered by taking the pistols out & shooting them in the configuration they will be used. It was also mentioned that the pistol(s) would likely have to be stored loaded for months. This tells me that you haven't shot the pistols enough to be familiar with them and do not plan to shoot them enough in the future.
Get a weapon light and go shoot each pistol with it installed and base your choice (and the next round of questions) on the experience. You will be able to make a better informed choice and come back and let us know how each shoots
maddawg5777
07-19-12, 13:16
Op, choose the weapon which you have shot the most and feel most comfortable with. Sell the remaining weapons (unless the have some sort of sentimental value) to purchase ammo and a training class.
In reality a pistol is for O shit moments when you need time to grab a long gun or when walking around with a rifle may be frowned upon:rolleyes:. Good old 870/590 pump or preferably a carbine is the better option for home defense. Unless the law and/or location restrains you from owning these types of tools then there is no reason to not equip yourself with the best tool for the job.
Animal_Mother556
07-19-12, 13:27
Why is 9x19mm considered a con?
I am wondering as well.....
I vote for whichever one you shoot the best. If that's the 1911, then that's the 1911. It doesn't matter what other guns you have or how good they are if you can't hit anything with it. A well-maintained 1911 is just as reliable as anything else out there.
Also keep in mind. Most people define "reliable" as something they never have to maintain. Kind of like a Honda Civic or your lawnmower. You use it hard but never really take care of it and it still works. I wouldn't worry about a 1911 being unreliable as long as you stay on top of maintenance. Get yourself some proven SD ammo, run 200 rounds through it, and if you don't have any problems, sleep soundly at night. As far as storing the mags fully loaded, why not have 2-3 extra mags, and rotate the rounds through them every week or so? It's not a constant compression of a spring that makes it wear out, it's a constant decompression and compression that makes a spring give up the ghost.
a few hundred through each.
Pick one, take a serious pistol class with it and continue practicing with it regularly. All three will be effective if you are effective.
Alaskapopo
07-19-12, 14:44
I'm trying to decide which would be best for home defense. The three choices are my Glock 19 Gen3, HK P30 LEM (9mm), or S&W 1911. There are pros and cons to each choice, but I would like some outside opinions. I'm sure I'm missing some points, but this is all I could think of right now.
I will be attaching a Streamlight TLR-2S (light/laser combo) and all three pistols have rails. The pistol will be kept in a biometric safe next to my bed and they will obviously be fully loaded for very long periods of time (possibly months). Right now all three are in a big safe in the basement and I'm using a shotgun for home defense in the biometric safe. I think a pistol should be in there too.
I'm kinda leaning towards the 1911. I'm currently using Chip McCormick Power Mags. Can 1911 mags be fully loaded for months like Glock mags without issues?
Glock 19 Gen3
Pros: reliability, mags are dependable and can be loaded down forever, simple controls
Cons: I've heard attaching a light to the rail can cause functioning problems, 9mm
S&W 1911
Pro: 45 ACP man-stopper, I can shoot it more accurately than the others, feels the best, best trigger ever
Cons: only holds 8 rounds, not the MOST reliable modern design (I haven't had problems...yet), manual safety, not sure how long I can store a fully loaded mag, 1911 not designed for hollow points (I haven't had problems yet)
HK P30 LEM 9mm
Pros: It's an HK:D, reliable design, good mags, good controls, awesome grip feel
Cons: 9mm, not used to the LEM trigger yet, not sure if it has a history of problems with lights attached to the rail like the Glock.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fjYVENBcXZY/T_r2lWO1yXI/AAAAAAAAB8Y/2sgqtw1Erkc/s800/G19FZ1.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-blz7qu_xhTQ/UAcvTkM5TWI/AAAAAAAACEU/jl60Y0f017U/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Hp8AiTgY7HE/TFndvPOUkCI/AAAAAAAAAPo/vYoSQ5w1-Nc/s800/2010-08-04%252017.19.19.jpg
First off forget the whole so called "Manstopper" part of the equation. The 45 and the 9mm with good ammo are very similar and frankly no pistol round is a man stopper. I would recommend the Glock 19 it is small enough for CCW when needed in that role, has a good trigger and it has 16 rounds on board. In a home defense situation your not likely to have extra mags handy so a 9 shot pistol is out. As for the light on a Glock 19 there are no issues. The models that had issues were .40 caliber Glocks Gen 3 and previous. Skip the HK as the trigger system sucks and it has a high bore axis which makes shooting fast and accurately more difficult. Definately put a light on which ever pistol you chose its a must have on a home defense weapon. As others have said a good 5.56 carbine or a shotgun would make a far better home defense weapon.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-19-12, 14:52
I vote for whichever one you shoot the best. If that's the 1911, then that's the 1911. It doesn't matter what other guns you have or how good they are if you can't hit anything with it. A well-maintained 1911 is just as reliable as anything else out there.
Also keep in mind. Most people define "reliable" as something they never have to maintain. Kind of like a Honda Civic or your lawnmower. You use it hard but never really take care of it and it still works. I wouldn't worry about a 1911 being unreliable as long as you stay on top of maintenance. Get yourself some proven SD ammo, run 200 rounds through it, and if you don't have any problems, sleep soundly at night. As far as storing the mags fully loaded, why not have 2-3 extra mags, and rotate the rounds through them every week or so? It's not a constant compression of a spring that makes it wear out, it's a constant decompression and compression that makes a spring give up the ghost.
Your right a 1911 can be reliable with proper maintance but that maintance schedule is not for the casual shooter. Also rotating mags does nothing at all to prolong spring life. Just change the springs at regular intervals with new ones rather that be 1 year or 6 months.
Pat
DontCome2MyHouse
07-19-12, 14:55
Thanks all. To clear some things up, I do not consider 9mm a bad caliber at all. In fact it's excellent (my Beretta Nano for CCW is in 9mm). Just given the choice of 9mm or .45, I'd lean towards the .45. But then again, my G19 holds twice as many rounds as my 1911, so it might be the better choice.
To give you guys some info, my safe in my bedroom holds an AR and a shotgun. I was just looking for an opinion of which pistol to put in there rather than keep them all in the big safe in the basement.
If the bad guy did break in my house in the middle of the night it would be a hard decision b/t the AR and shotgun. Both are pictured below. Let the criticisms begin!:D
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-k9piz8l9WPQ/TOBVnEIIPPI/AAAAAAAAAUc/kiHaIy9S1Gg/s800/WEBARFix.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e4vHQgzr-BQ/T6LxwYL56NI/AAAAAAAABmM/jMvJTz9YK7g/s800/KSG2.jpg
DontCome2MyHouse
07-19-12, 15:02
Which one do you attend training classes with? Because I'd vote for that one.
Probably the G19.
beschatten
07-19-12, 22:35
All modern bullets (9mm, 40SW, 45ACP) have the same ballistics. They were designed to penetrate the target 12-18 inches. So forgot the caliber for the equation.
You need to think of training costs. 9mm is the way to go. The important thing is to shoot, and shoot often.
I'd grab the HKP30 for the superior egros, easy handling, durability (glocks are known for this too), and great controls. I'm a south paw so this is important to me. Although it may not be a concern at the moment, I would suggest training with both left/right hands because you never know what situation may occur.
You can grab the light LEM trigger on the HKP30 for a great trigger. Although I prefer DA/SA.
As much as I love 1911's, the ammo costs, lack of ammo capacity, and the maint required on them (consistant cleaning) makes it a deal breaker for home def.
Ultimately it is your decision and what is right for you. If you are a tack driver with a 1911 and have the $ to train with it, go for it. If you like the Glock and it works for you, sweet. If the P30 sits right with you, all the merrier.
Buying a gun a very personal decision. Unfortunately, sometimes it takes us to buy a few more than we'd like to find one we really really like.
Pick one. Sell the others. Purchase a second pistol identical to whatever you have chosen. Get good instruction with a quality trainer. Practice. Invest in software, not useless hardware...
As others have noted, we've never seen any problems with X300's on 9 mm Glocks, just on the .40's.
On a side note.....I have found bio safes completely unreliable......read the reviews before you buy
I would choose the Glock 19. My decision might a bit bias due to the fact that I am not familiar to the other firearms. I am assigned a Glock 21 SF (.45 ACP) as my duty weapon. I choose a Glock 26 Gen4 (9mm) for my off duty carry, and a Glock 30 SF as a home defense weapon.
I have put about 5000+ rounds through Glock 21 (went through the academy with it). I have put about 1000+ rounds through my Glock 30 and about 700+ rounds through my Glock 26. Of those three Glocks, I can't remember a malfunction.
1911. It has a stiff manual safety. You can cock it, lock it and leave it unholstered. Put it somewhere consistent and accessible. Living room when you're up and bedroom when you're asleep.
I believe pretty strongly the weapon you'll defend yourself with needs to be condition one.
Magic_Salad0892
07-20-12, 06:26
First off forget the whole so called "Manstopper" part of the equation. The 45 and the 9mm with good ammo are very similar and frankly no pistol round is a man stopper. I would recommend the Glock 19 it is small enough for CCW when needed in that role, has a good trigger and it has 16 rounds on board. In a home defense situation your not likely to have extra mags handy so a 9 shot pistol is out. As for the light on a Glock 19 there are no issues. The models that had issues were .40 caliber Glocks Gen 3 and previous. Skip the HK as the trigger system sucks and it has a high bore axis which makes shooting fast and accurately more difficult. Definately put a light on which ever pistol you chose its a must have on a home defense weapon. As others have said a good 5.56 carbine or a shotgun would make a far better home defense weapon.
Pat
But with a shotgun you're back at 7-8 rounds, and depending on the shotgun they'll have to be manually charged into the weapon. Also not as manuverable as the pistol.
Magic_Salad0892
07-20-12, 06:28
1911. It has a stiff manual safety.
That's funny coming from a guy named ''G34''...
DontCome2MyHouse
07-20-12, 06:35
On a side note.....I have found bio safes completely unreliable......read the reviews before you buy
Mine has been 100% reliable.
Pick one. Sell the others. Purchase a second pistol identical to whatever you have chosen. Get good instruction with a quality trainer. Practice. Invest in software, not useless hardware...
As others have noted, we've never seen any problems with X300's on 9 mm Glocks, just on the .40's.
Awful difficult to find better advice!
Beat Trash
07-20-12, 09:38
Pick one. Sell the others. Purchase a second pistol identical to whatever you have chosen. Get good instruction with a quality trainer. Practice. Invest in software, not useless hardware...
As others have noted, we've never seen any problems with X300's on 9 mm Glocks, just on the .40's.
Ah... The beauty of simplicity....
As to which long gun to grab out of your safe for that "Bump in the night"?
Which one are you the most familiar with? Which one can you operate in the dark? Which one can you manipulate the controls on by feel and by memory? Which one has been vetted by you to be reliable enough to bet your life on?
We could argue the merits of a 12 ga vs. a 5.56mm carbine for a H/D weapon. In the end, both are excellent tools for a properly trained and motivated individual.
But they are just that, tools. It's up to the individual to utilize good tactics, mindset and have enough skill to manipulate your chosen tools.
...As much as I love 1911's, the ammo costs, lack of ammo capacity, and the maint required on them (consistant cleaning) makes it a deal breaker for home def...
I hope you don't ever talk to my 1911. Through all the years and thousands of rounds fired, it's required minimal maintenance and less cleaning and it's always been reliable. I don't want it to know what it's been missing and start getting balky
Alaskapopo
07-20-12, 13:01
But with a shotgun you're back at 7-8 rounds, and depending on the shotgun they'll have to be manually charged into the weapon. Also not as manuverable as the pistol.
With a shotgun you should have a side saddle and a butt stock ammo carrier. I have 17 round on my 14 inch 870. With the shotgun you have a lot better terminal performance so you will not need as many rounds. Also with proper training clearing a building with a long gun is easy. Furthermore as a home defender you should hold up in a room and let the threat come to you anyway. You should not be trying to play one man SWAT team. Pistols are secondary weapons not primary ones.
Pat
DontCome2MyHouse
07-20-12, 14:57
With a shotgun you should have a side saddle and a butt stock ammo carrier. I have 17 round on my 14 inch 870. With the shotgun you have a lot better terminal performance so you will not need as many rounds. Also with proper training clearing a building with a long gun is easy. Furthermore as a home defender you should hold up in a room and let the threat come to you anyway. You should not be trying to play one man SWAT team. Pistols are secondary weapons not primary ones.
Pat
Have you seen my shotgun picture from prior posts? I got the KelTec Shotgun. Holds 15 shells internally. No side saddle needed.
I completely agree. I wouldn't try to be the one man SWAT team, but I can promise no one would make it up the stairs.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-20-12, 14:59
Pick one. Sell the others. Purchase a second pistol identical to whatever you have chosen. Get good instruction with a quality trainer. Practice. Invest in software, not useless hardware...
As others have noted, we've never seen any problems with X300's on 9 mm Glocks, just on the .40's.
I don't think I could part with my 1911, but maybe the HK P30. She's a pure enjoyment to shoot. But I get your point.
Alaskapopo
07-20-12, 15:00
Have you seen my shotgun picture from prior posts? I got the KelTec Shotgun. Holds 15 shells internally. No side saddle needed.
I completely agree. I wouldn't try to be the one man SWAT team, but I can promise no one would make it up the stairs.
I also have a 20 round mag for it that is super long.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Saiga12RR.jpg
DontCome2MyHouse
07-20-12, 15:00
Ah... The beauty of simplicity....
As to which long gun to grab out of your safe for that "Bump in the night"?
Which one are you the most familiar with? Which one can you operate in the dark? Which one can you manipulate the controls on by feel and by memory? Which one has been vetted by you to be reliable enough to bet your life on?
We could argue the merits of a 12 ga vs. a 5.56mm carbine for a H/D weapon. In the end, both are excellent tools for a properly trained and motivated individual.
But they are just that, tools. It's up to the individual to utilize good tactics, mindset and have enough skill to manipulate your chosen tools.
The one I'm most familiar with would be my AR. I'm also more accurate with it at close range than with my pistols.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-20-12, 15:03
I also have a 20 round mag for it that is super long.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Saiga12RR.jpg
I've heard those Saigas are very nice. I have a Krebs Custom Saiga AK-74.
Alaskapopo
07-20-12, 15:10
I have to admit however I woud grab my Noveske N4 first.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20Auto%20rifles/NoveskeN4.jpg
Pat
I picked the P30 because I love it and it is very ergonomical. I would go with whichever one you train with and shoot the best.
Microalign
07-20-12, 15:36
I have to admit however I woud grab my Noveske N4 first.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20Auto%20rifles/NoveskeN4.jpg
Pat
I'm curious for your reason in using the piggie on that longer barrel.
AR backed up by G19. P30 would be my 2nd choice.
If you have a spouse or other you trust in the house that may need to use the gun, you might consider which would also be a good choice for you as well as the other person.
My choice is the Glock, now I am not a Glock fan but have been issued or forced to carry one for 7 years now. Plus the wife is familiar with it and shoots it pretty well. If I were to have my 1911 in the nightstand and was not home I would not feel comfortable with my wife having to use it, simply because she has no rounds down range with it.
I probably missed this butttt.. No one has really mentioned the choice of 1911. Does the S&W 1911 get the m4c approval for being quality home defence gun vs others?
I probably missed this butttt.. No one has really mentioned the choice of 1911. Does the S&W 1911 get the m4c approval for being quality home defence gun vs others?
Probably.. It would not be my choice in a 1911, but should suffice.. Ron
Take all 3 and SHOOT, SHOOT, SHOOT, SHOOT, and then SHOOT, some more. Practice, find out what works BEST FOR YOU, then decide. At least you can become efficient with all 3. The more familiar you are with them, the better you will be under stress.
Forgot to ask....how many rounds down range equal safe reliability? 200-300? I've shot all these WITHOUT the light attached. I need to test with the light attached.
For me, 500 trouble free rounds of ball and HP's is when I trust a pistol enough to carry & home defense. I like to number the magazines and carry the pistol with the magazines I used to test the pistol for those first 500 rounds.
A G17 is my current HD gun that is mounted at my bed side in a handgun safe and a G26 is my CCW so I would lean toward the G19 for familiarity reasons and knowing how reliable my other Glocks are.
MountainRaven
07-22-12, 14:00
I voted for the H&K, as I have owned and used all three options (if we just call the S&W a 1911 and lump all 1911s together) but the H&K is the one I have decided to stick with. Any of the three will work well, though.
I'm going to have to refute Alaskapopo's claim that H&Ks have poor triggers or are slow, as I have found the LEM trigger on the P30 to be better, for me, than the Glock trigger and I have not noticed the H&K to be any slower, shot-to-shot, than the Glock.
I agree that you should also have some sort of long gun available and it should be whatever you're most competent with, whether it's a shotgun or a carbine/rifle is irrelevant. For getting folks (guests, children, &c.) to safety, I would recommend taking the handgun, though. Once everybody's safe, hunker down with the long gun.
ANYWAY. Pick one. Train with it. I don't know that I would necessarily say that you ought to sell the other two, but definitely pick up a second handgun configured identically to the one you choose, as DocGKR suggested.
My 1-and-3/4 Yen.
The P30 is the best and highest quality gun out of your options (or pretty much any options on the market) however it's the more expensive option, clearly. Glock 19 will definitely suffice but a P30 is a higher quality piece in pretty much every regard ...
The P30 is the best and highest quality gun out of your options (or pretty much any options on the market) however it's the more expensive option, clearly. Glock 19 will definitely suffice but a P30 is a higher quality piece in pretty much every regard ...
This reminds me of when I was a kid and video gamers in the grades below me argued about the merits of Playstation or Xbox. Whichever one they owned was always the best naturally.:rolleyes:
As a side note, I like my P30 (9mm) but when I compare it to my Glock it's not exactly like popping out of a Civic and into a Bugatti. More like popping out of a Civic into another Civic.
Pistol Shooter
07-23-12, 16:11
The P30 is the best and highest quality gun out of your options (or pretty much any options on the market) however it's the more expensive option, clearly. Glock 19 will definitely suffice but a P30 is a higher quality piece in pretty much every regard ...
Agreed.
Spend a bit more and get the P30. With it's adjustable backstraps and grip panels it can be configured to fit almost any hand.
Here's a picture of mine to inspire you. :smile:
http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo220/cashbailey_photos/DSCN1283.jpg
I vote Glock 19, best factory mags for capacity. As for HD, what to grab would be a hard choice. I have my G19, BCM 16", and Rem870 all ready to go. All with TLR's. Maneuverability vs damage? I'm guessing my AR will be first grab if I know there is a threat.
Red Rezin
All i will say, is I have a P30 in 40 underneath my bed in a gunvault.
I dont really like saftey's on my guns personally, but i find that sometime for my bed side gun...awoken in the middle of the night groggy and not sure what woke me up, I thought a safety would be nice....as I reach udner the bed in the dark and grab around.
I love the P30....I sold off everything but HK personally
BTW...the only right answer is which gun you shoot best and feel most comfortable with and has the highest reliability....all other points are basically irrelevant.
Magic_Salad0892
07-24-12, 00:02
With a shotgun you should have a side saddle and a butt stock ammo carrier. I have 17 round on my 14 inch 870. With the shotgun you have a lot better terminal performance so you will not need as many rounds. Also with proper training clearing a building with a long gun is easy. Furthermore as a home defender you should hold up in a room and let the threat come to you anyway. You should not be trying to play one man SWAT team. Pistols are secondary weapons not primary ones.
Pat
Hey, Alaskapopo. I still wanna debate this with you, without clogging up the thread.
I'm shooting you a PM.
That's funny coming from a guy named ''G34''...
Home defense gun, for most people, makes me think of an unholstered gun on a nightstand. Seems like a bad situation for an unholstered Glock to be in.
Also, it shouldn't surprise you too much, compare a G34 with a Government 1911 side by side and they're damn near identical in dimensions.
Also, OP, why do you not want a long gun for home defense? Pistols are for packin. When you don't have to pack your gun concealed I think long gun.
DontCome2MyHouse
07-24-12, 15:35
Home defense gun, for most people, makes me think of an unholstered gun on a nightstand. Seems like a bad situation for an unholstered Glock to be in.
Also, it shouldn't surprise you too much, compare a G34 with a Government 1911 side by side and they're damn near identical in dimensions.
Also, OP, why do you not want a long gun for home defense? Pistols are for packin. When you don't have to pack your gun concealed I think long gun.
I do have a long gun (AR) on the ready. I just wanted a pistol as well...maybe even as a backup.
Suwannee Tim
07-24-12, 20:01
.....very long periods of time (possibly months).......
I'm wondering how old you are. If "very long periods of time" is "months" you gotta be a youngster.
To answer your question, any of the above.
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