View Full Version : Build or buy
My wife and my ten year wedding anniversary is a bit over a year away. For her present she is throwing the wedding reception party she never got as I was a private (ie poor) when we married. For my present I am getting 5k to spend on a gun.
My budget of 5k is pretty strict as we are also trying to pay off our new house in the next 10 years.
So my two options I have been eyeing have been an AI AE MKIII 308 (or something similar like a GAP Crusader) or buying a Remington 5R and slapping a buch of stuff on it.
If I go the purchase route it will only leave me approximately 1k to spend on a scope. I would then save up for a good scope like a Nightforce NXS but because of the house pay off plan it would likely take me a year or so to do it. In the 1k range I was looking at either the Viper PST, a lower end Leupold Mk4 or maybe finding a better scope used.
On the other hand if I go the Rem 5R route I could purchase some really nice glass to start and just keep the rifle fairly simple. Now obviously this choice would seem to be the most logical as common wisdom says that good glass is more important than the rifle.
However my problem with this is I think it will be much easier to save up the money to buy good glass for a superb rifle than to save up for a top end rifle to go with the high end scope.
This rifle will be used for target shooting and maybe competition in the future. I dont get out to shoot at range enough to become a real competitor but even coming in last place would still be a fun and educational experience.
Do you own any NFA stuff? Have you considered getting a cheap full auto?
fallenromeo
07-19-12, 13:46
Do you own any NFA stuff? Have you considered getting a cheap full auto?
I thought the terms "cheap" and "full auto" were mutually exclusive? I don't know much about NFA because I am in Commiefornia, but what full auto can you buy for sub 5K? Not questioning you, just curious what is out there for that price?
MAC's, Reisings, M2 Carbines, SW76's, Stemple's, Sten's...
Cheap fun subguns, nothing awesome, but now I'm realizing this was specifically in the bolt gun subforum and he's only talking about bolt guns - so I'll just withdraw the question.
don't forget to budget cost of ammo in there, and match or range fees
i remember when i was a broke college student buying my first car, i spent all my budget on a nice car and couldn't afford gas to drive it! that sucked! I don't make the same mistake with rifles now.
Ammo isn't in my budget as its a constant payment. Much like any other bills. Plus I have reloaded in the past for match 308 so I would just start that back up. This budget is specifically for the gun and glass. I might be able to go over slightly but nothing significant.
I was just doing some online shopping and found some AE MkIIs for 3300 and Nightforce 3-15 NXS scopes for around 1500. That fits in my budget. I would be probably just be buying the AI scope mount from them and I already have a Harris bipod and would probably save up for a nicer one.
cool
look at this scope then. it's better than any of your options above. FFP, 3-21x locking turrets, lightweight. very good reticle. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3441144#Post3441144
Have you considered a semi-auto precision build? I know this is the bolt action forum, but for your intended use, it seems you're over gunning. You can save over $1,000 and buy a bad ass Knights, LaRue, LWRC, etc and put that sweet piece of glass on top. Semi-auto's are fully capable out to 1,000 and will hold moa groups if you and the gun are good enough. Just saying you may want to consider this as an option.
By the way, congrats on the upcoming anniversary!
Have you considered a semi-auto precision build? I know this is the bolt action forum, but for your intended use, it seems you're over gunning. You can save over $1,000 and buy a bad ass Knights, LaRue, LWRC, etc and put that sweet piece of glass on top. Semi-auto's are fully capable out to 1,000 and will hold moa groups if you and the gun are good enough. Just saying you may want to consider this as an option.
By the way, congrats on the upcoming anniversary!
I have considered them and they still are an option. I do like bolt guns better for the more extreme ranges and simple system. I have considered the Larue and LMT extensively but have never seen a KAC for under 4k.
I feel like scopes have come a long way recently in the 1k price range, the vortex pst, weaver tac ffp and bushnell ffp are all solid scopes- I've had or tried just about every scope worth owning between me and my brother and once you get into the top of the line optics diminishing returns are very real- yes USO and SB are better than a pst but are they 2k$ better? Only you can be the judge, I would try to see if you can check out scopes befor buying. If your fine with a 1-1.5k scope I'd get a gap and be done with it. You really have to get behind some rifles with different scopes if possible, I like my bushnell hdmr better than my brothers night force.
If you build a rifle you could just get a rem 7, new barrel, trig and stock for 2-2.5k easily. That would leave you enough for about any scope. Even a stock 5r is more than enough accurate for the majority of shooters. The only real problem here is there are no guarantees that when it's all slapped together it will shoot to your liking.
It is quite a tough decision but I would lean towards a gap or equivilent rifle (a sako trg is worth a look) and a decent scope and saving up then upgrading the scope after you know exactly what scope you want.
An AI AE for $3300 is a good deal and you cant go wrong with one either. The resale value on these stays good.
Starting off with a 5R seems like a good idea but in the long run you will have way more money tied up in it but you wont be able to get it back.
I know this is my first post but while I my be new here ive been the the long range precision rifle game for a long time.
scoutchris
07-26-12, 15:18
Although this is my first post, I spent a few months where you live attending a few schools before traveling a few times to the place in your signature. If you're going to be really into stretching your legs, go beyond a 7.62. They sell .308's at Wal-Mart that can achieve a minute of man at 1km. Either build a precision .308 with GREAT optics and gear, and set yourself up properly, because let's face it, you're not going to be routinely going beyond 800m... on a good day, at a range that's accessible, and if you are, .308 isn't nearly as much fun as .300WM, or a .338.
There's no need to dump that much money into a .308. And there's no need to buy a Porsche if you can't put the right tires on it.
I would buy a rifle from a known maker like GAP, TacOps, maybe even a FN A3G(no idea why, but I realy want one of these). If you bought a rifle and great glass you would still just have a 5R(nothing wrong with that), but if you got a great rifle and good glass you would be in a whole new league. I would rather have a GAP with a $500 Nikon than a 5R with a S&B.
scoutchris
07-28-12, 15:30
The difference is that you'll never be able to outshoot the rifle if you have shitty glass on a GAP, but you wil defeinitely be able to hone your shooting abilities to the point that you can outshoot a 700, then transplant the glass to a new rifle if you think you want that extra 5 percent accuracy you'll gain...
It's the indian, not the arrow.
Cesiumsponge
07-28-12, 15:52
I frequent Sniper's Hide. Almost unanimously, the opinion in the "AI/Sako vs (Remington 700 platform with custom doodads)", most people say go with the AI because it's been a proven platform for decades and you can't do anything more to it out-the-box. You can build a hundred Remington 5R variants and get different results.
It depends on your philosophy. I hate upgrade paths so I bend over and pay upfront for the best I can afford, even if it means it sits in the safe an extra year while I get ancillaries put together for a functional package. I like knowing that I'll never exceed the abilities of my gear and any shortcomings that show up are my own fault. There is no second-guessing the hardware.
Ultimately it will be more expensive upfront and maybe you can't hit the ground running until you save up for glass and whatnot, but the ultimate cost of the platform over time will be the ammo if you plan to own and shoot the stick for a long time to come. I know that pain because I went with a Sako TRG-22 folder. That's $6k street price just for the rifle.
Don't trust online advertised prices. There are some site sponsors at Sniper's Hide. They offer discounts for members if you email or phone them up. I'm not going to plug anything but I've dealt with several of them setting up my Sako and suppressor and they offered unbeatable prices. You'll get excellent customer service and support too. That's very, very important for a big ticket purchase like this where the company is back in the UK (in the case of AI). A good dealer has solid pull with the North American distributor and UK channels.
Ok, the reason I say buy instead of build. If you got say a 5R and great glass you got what $1000 budget left? Thats enough to rebarrel and blueprint, maybe a trigger. So then you send your new rifle off to a smith to do that for how many months of not shooting? Or you get a AI, TacOps, Gap, whatever and put a ok scope on it. You shoot it now. In a year you upgrade the glass if you need to. But you've been shooting the whole time. With the build its buy, shoot, build, shoot, build, shoot until your done. You also don't risk getting a "platform to build on" and never doing the build... That would be hell. To know you took a dream rifle chance and ended up with a nice scope on a ok rifle instead of something totally awesome.
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/guns-sale/36457-modern-art-piece-my-fn-spr-a1.html
Any interest?
Note...this is not my rifle. I am a member of TGT and remembered the post while I was reading yours.
Cesiumsponge
07-29-12, 03:34
Posting a sale ad is an inappropriate response. Doubly so because it is neither a Remington 5R variant or an AI AE MkIII :rolleyes:
Just trying to help.
He did mention .308 and Nightforce.
Also, even after FFL transfer he would have money left over to play with.
Just trying to help. Yourself.
If lack of class would cause you physical injury... you'd be dead.
How so? For trying to help someone? Please explain.
scoutchris
07-29-12, 18:15
Ironically, most of the people on SH don't have the B4 ASI, let alone have they served...
I do, and while I am not the end all be all subject matter expert on long range marksmanship, I can tell you that by buying the extremely high end platform, you will rarely if ever, be able to experience the true capabilities of the rifle, mainly because your capabilities don't match up.
After multiple deployments and both interservice and civilian competitions, I can attest to the fact that I don't think my abilities surpass those of my my first dedicated rifle, the M24. Now, they have surpassed the M110 I was later issued, but you are looking for a bolt gun, and I would really, really stress that you will be a much better shooter by purchasing a 700 AAC SD or some other variant, and building your skills than you would buying an AI or something and shooting at a beginners level.
How so? For trying to help someone? Please explain. Oh you poor innocent soul. All you were doing is trying to help someone... and big meany pants jumps in and ruins your opportunity to help. awwww.
You want to sell something, put it in the appropriate category. If you don't want to do that, and you want to "help" someone... then there is this magical thing called a PRIVATE MESSAGE.
It's amazing. You can send a message DIRECTLY TO the person you are trying to "help" by buying your shit. No one else will see it, making sure that you don't inadvertently "help" someone that doesn't need "help."
Now you can go back to pretending that you didn't know what the hell you were doing.
scoutchris
07-29-12, 19:08
You both have successfully hijacked this thread.
Cesiumsponge
07-29-12, 19:22
scoutchris, hijacked? This coming from a guy who starts with insulting and/or dismissing a forum dedicated to precision shooting for not having enough people with B4 ASI or having served, then cockwave that you do have those qualifications, then try to make a backhanded apology for using the disclaimer of "I am not the end all be all". The only place where you'll find the majority of forum members with military experience is a place like SOCNET. There are enough respected people on SH that do have served in various military capacities including snipers, like Steve Reichert. Sniping duties aren't the same as competition shooting or target shooting. There are plenty of people who are fantastic marksmen who don't make it into some sniping program because there is a lot more to it than being a good shot.
No one has made the argument that the AI line of rifles are better because they're somehow more inherently accurate, what some consider the primary measurement of a precision rifle. The most common reason people buy the AI is because there are no upgrade path and nothing to tweak. It's done. Nothing needs blueprinting, truing, jeweling, fluting, squaring, concentricity work, polishing, etc. It isn't a benchrest-accurate gun. It's accuracy is not really more superb than anything else out there. Most do about .5MOA and you can do well under that with custom rifles on a 700 platform. People tend to buy it for it's durability and reliability in all environmental conditions. It's arguably a better rifle in the sense that it's a product that doesn't need tweaking. It doesn't make you shoot any better. The factory customer service is fantastic, and you can change your own barrels with a proprietary tool and no gunsmith required for headspace jobs.
There is an AIAW made in 1997 floating around the Rifles Only facility with over 90k documented rounds as of several years ago and the only parts that have been swapped out are worn-out barrels and a mushroomed bolt release pin, which was replaced with an overnight shipment from AI. That's anecdotal example but one has to dig long and hard to find anyone posting about a broken down or malfunctioning AI rifle.
C-grunt, I would also keep an eye on the sale forums. There are always a couple AIAEs for sale. Folks like to sell them to try something like the Desert Tactical Arms or Sako. Sometimes they sell it back for another AIAE or stick with the new platform. I was tossing between the AIAE and the Sako when I was making my purchase. It's a solid rig if you can swing it.
scoutchris
07-29-12, 19:36
Cesium, you sure do know how to make someone feel welcome. SH is sort of laughed at within the operating community, FYI. Most of the people that write on those boards have more time and money than skill. That's why most of us created a screenname and never actually posted.
I am simply stating that with a $5k budget, putting 2.5 into your system and 2.5 into rounds/reloading/range membership/classes, would serve a shooter new to the bolt gun game SIGNIFICANTLY better than dumping your money into a $4k rifle and scraping by on everything else. Developing the shooter, and not the equipment, is what makes for an effective marksman and battlefield implementation.
Thanks for schooling me on the traits necessary to write my ERB, although what most people don't realize is the earning all those patches and badges is about 5 percent trigger time. What makes someone a marksman is discipline. And while you can buy a fancy pantsy rifle to show off to your friends, you can't buy the holes you want to poke in the ten ring, or the physical fitness and conditioning necessary to send those rounds downrange properly. I'm done with this thread.
And this forum isn't dedicated to precision shooting, nor is SH.
orkan, you mention the use of a private message...
Could you have sent a pm to me letting me know that I did something that I should not have. I am a member on 2 forums. On one, someone mentioned they were looking for a .308 and a Nightforce scope. On the other forum, someone is selling a rifle chambered in .308 and has a Nightforce scope. I simply tried to connect the 2 individuals.
I have no personal gain if either the buyer or seller come to an agreement.
I'd like to hear from the original poster on the matter. Would he not appreciate that someone showed him a rifle under his budget? A rifle that I thought would suit what he was looking for?
Why not devote your energy into something constructive? Or go troll somewhere else.
Why not devote your energy into something constructive? I loaded 400rnds of 308 today. What do I win?
Have you considered Tac Ops out of Beverly Hills. Rifle should run around 3 to 3500 should leave you with a good chunk for glass and from what I have found are great rifles.
AR15barrels
07-30-12, 18:21
I loaded 400rnds of 308 today. What do I win?
Only newbs and old fogies shoot 308...
Only newbs and old fogies shoot 308... http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0812/your-lack-of-faith-demotivational-poster-1230424736.jpg
The majority of the snipers in our great military and law enforcement still shoot 308.
It's value as a training tool is unsurpassed.
You won't hear me arguing how its better than a 6.5 creedmoor or 7WSM when it comes to getting that first shot on target... but the 308 isn't totally without merit.
It forces me to be ON my game completely to make hits at 1000yds, in the prevailing conditions here in SD. With a 7WSM, I can screw up a wind call pretty badly and still put on a good show at a grand.
I still shoot more 308 than anything else. It's just too fun. ... and cheap!
AR15barrels
07-30-12, 19:34
It's value as a training tool is unsurpassed.
Oh, I know how to shoot a 308 and I always recommend people to start with one.
It's lackluster performance in the wind really teaches you to be a better shooter in the wind.
I just don't personally choose to shoot one much anymore as I value hits on target more than anything else...
I found that going custom didn't really cost much more than buying factory when considering top-tier long range sticks.
I had two different guns built up in the past 12 months on Surgeon actions. There's a little more pride in ownership with a rifle that you speced to 100% your liking. There are a lot of competent builders out there.
Cesiumsponge
08-01-12, 18:54
scoutchris, when you pop on and feel like dismissing an entire forum because the majority of the membership didn't sweat or bleed as much as you or, and you make a concerted effort to wave around your awesome credentials while dismissing everyone else, its a dickish move.
There are very few internet forums that are so private and regulated that you're going to have a majority of users in some military elite. Most gun forums are public forums and you're going to attract all types. As you suggested in PM with a video, maybe most of them comprise of 9-5 white collar dudes with too much money and their own bench at the local range. Who cares? Unless these weekend warrior attorneys and doctors falsely claim military credentials, I don't see what the issue is. There are are core group of good people there who actively compete or have solid military backgrounds.
C-grunt didn't mention anything about his prior experience so I'm not sure what level he is at. No one has argued gear>classes, but the topic of instructional training wasn't touched upon. He DID mention competition as a possibility and target shooting. He didn't ask about what it takes to become a sniper or designated marksman.
Besides, your first post is questionable. You're telling C-grunt to not spend "that much" on a .308 and decrying more expensive .308 rifles, while throwing out the idea of magnum calibers like .300WM or .338LM simply because .308 "isn't nearly as much fun" despite the operational costs being much more, getting less trigger time because of the recoil (can most people shoot .338LM all day comfortably like .308?) and it being a waste to punch holes inside 1000m using the larger magnum calibers that shoot pretty damn flat when you'd get more practice with your dopes using .308 at sub-1km ranges? How is a new precision-rifle shooter going to benefit on a typical range or at multi-day classes with a .338LM rig more than a solid .308 rig?
The Surgeon
08-01-12, 20:14
Not sure if they have been brought up yet, but you may want to give a Surgeon and Desert Tactical Arms a look. Orkan I believe runs a DTA. Personally I would dump the money into a GAP, DTA, Surgeon, Louisiana Precision, etc. Drop down behind one of these rifles and you will have your answer. Then get down behind a 5R or a FNH A3G. The higher ends will run circles around the latter two.
Ok guys... First of all I dont have the money right now to buy anything. Like the OP said my anniversary is a long ways off and I need to save up. I asked just to gather info and maybe get some new insight.
As far as experience, Im not new to long range shooting but Im not well versed. I was a designated marksman during my second tour in Iraq. I carried the modified M16A4 with an ACOG and M262. I didnt get to go to any of the official Army SDM classes, there just wasnt enough of them at the time.
I have also owned a Savage 10FP topped with a Mk4 and a LTR topped with a SWFA SS10x.
scoutchris
08-01-12, 21:40
All I meant was if he was considering spending almost $4k on a bolt gun, make it in a caliber specifically designed to shoot out past 1k. I am not advocating buying any of those overrated sticks, period, but if he was going to, make it worth it and get something he can really stretch out. If you want to shoot .308- which I recommend for someone wanting to really learn how to SHOOT, not just look like they can, I would highly recommend building your own for half the cost, and spending the remainder on ammo. Spending that much money on a .308 (IN MY OPINION) is like throwing money into a Honda Civic. In the end, it's still a .308. And if you really want a sports car, save your money and buy a Porsche.
The DTA SRS is the best there is. Period. I have surgeon's and custom rem700's... and they just sit in the rack.
The DTA goes out nearly every time I go shoot. Sure, they are expensive... but you end up saving money with a switch-barrel system like that in the long run. Sometimes I want to shoot 308. Other times I want to shoot 338 or 7WSM. Takes a minute to swap out the conversion, and another 5 minutes to verify the zero is on from when I adjusted the scope to the doped zero for that conversion. The 308 sits in there most of the time because... well... its just too fun to shoot.
The SRS is badly in need of the soft buttpad that they were showing off at SHOT this year. It's really the only thing that the SRS is lacking.
AR15barrels
08-02-12, 13:10
All I meant was if he was considering spending almost $4k on a bolt gun, make it in a caliber specifically designed to shoot out past 1k.
That makes a BIG assumption that the OP has easy access to a range with more than 1K distance.
If you don't have easy access to such a range, such a rifle is almost pointless unless you are just looking for safe queens...
Have you ever thought about buying a used gun? I bought one on snipershide that was built by RW Snyder with a brand new barrel. I put an XLR stock on it and a muzzle brake. Total in the gun about $3000.00 not including what I made back off selling the other parts. That gun shoots 1/2 MOA no problem. Anyway its an option. Either way I would go with at least a semi custom gun.
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