shooting an AR vs a bolt gun [Archive]

prodgi

07-20-12, 06:57

I'm having problems with getting behind a AR and shooting it well. I can drop in behind a bolt gun and shoot what I feel is my level of shooting but as soon as I get in behind an AR prone it all goes down hill real quick.
Best I can average is 1.5moa with my AR and in theory it should shoot better than that as I have used quality parts.
So assuming that the gun and ammo are good to go what fundamentals are different with the AR vs a bolt gun?

Thanks

Apricotshot

07-20-12, 07:27

I'd recommend taking a carbine class from a reputable instructor.

prodgi

07-20-12, 08:09

I'd recommend taking a carbine class from a reputable instructor.
Ok?
What's that got to do with the OP?

Apricotshot

07-20-12, 08:58

Ok?
What's that got to do with the OP?

Maybe you need to get some training too then.:rolleyes:

prodgi

07-20-12, 10:03

Maybe you need to get some training too then.:rolleyes:

Typical.

So you mean a carbine instructor is going to teach precsion rifle ideals? I think not. Theyd'd be fine with 1.5 moa.

So if you have something to add to the OP I'm all ears but the typical take a carbine class reposonce dose nothing for me as this is a thread in the precision rifle topic. But thanks for taking the time to respond.
I'm not entirely discounting what you are saying as I'm sure some carbine fundamentals carry over but there is something very different in regards to shooting a bolt gun vs a AR.

rauchman

07-20-12, 10:27

What kind of ammo are you using? What kind of AR are you shooting, what kind of barrel, etc? Are you running optics? Is your optic choice and mount quality?

If you're running a chrome lined barrel shooting mil-spec ammo, I wouldn't expect great results. Actually, with this combo, 1.5MOA would be outstanding.

If you're running a quality barrel (typically higher end SS), shooting quality ammo, then yes, you're expectation should be higher. Nice trigger helps too.

Assuming your running a quality rig and ammo, then it's down to form. There are others here (calling Trident) who can help you much better than I.

lunchbox

07-20-12, 10:47

I grew up on bolt/lever actions, but when I got behind an AR for some reason I wan't as acc. as I knew capable of. So I took a carbine class (not for precision reasons) and my long range shooting got better as well with that platform. The AR is a whole different creature than a bolt. A class isn't such a bad idea for many reasons..

Rosco Benson

07-20-12, 11:39

I use both a "varmint" AR (RRA 24" heavy barrel) and various bolt guns on prairie dogs. I do just as well with the AR as I do with bolt guns. Not sure what sort of AR the OP is trying to use, so I'll offer a couple general observations.

A precision rifle needs a good trigger. A typical bolt-action rifle will have a lighter and crisper trigger than a GI-type AR. For precision use, the AR will need a "match" trigger. These are offered by several makers and come factory installed on various varmint or precision AR rifles.

The GI-style pistol grips make it tempting to get too much of one's finger on the trigger. A pistol grip that keeps the web of the hand farther rearward makes it easier to use the first pad of the trigger finger to address the trigger. I like Magpul's MOE or the Ergo grip as well as any.

In order to get proper eye relief with a scope, most AR users will need a scope mount that cantilevers out in front of the upper receiver to get the scope far enough forward. Most users will end up with the ocular lens pretty much even with the rear of the receiver. Trying to just mount the scope directly on top of the receiver with tall rings usually won't allow sufficient eye relief.

Rosco

prodgi

07-20-12, 11:42

I actually took a carbine class a few months back and it was geared much more to weapons manipulation than precision type shooting and yes there was lots of good stuff there
I wanted to try to steer away from the gun/gear I got for one reason. I know it's me. By I'm running a SWFA SSHD 5-20 optic in a BOBRO mount a SSA-E trigger and a Fulton Armory (Criterion) barrel. I've tried factory ammo and several handloads one thing to throw in is that handloads are from a Dillion 550B. I don't think it's the ammo, factory stuff seems to shoot the same as the handloads.
I just can't help to think that that my setup ought to shoot better than it is. I know with a bolt gun I can do much better and more consistent so there must be a difference in the way to shoot an AR than a bolt gun I just can for the life of me pit my finger on the problem area.

strow

07-20-12, 12:04

To the original posters questions.

In MY OPINION... You need to be more aggressive with your shooting technique when trying to get a semi auto to stay under 3/4moa. The semiautos are MUCH less forgiving of small changes in your grip, body position, shoulder pressure, follow through, trigger finger placement, etc.

I have better luck when using quite a bit of shoulder pressure on the buttstock. I lean in with the shoulder, loading the bipod, and pull back with the firing hand. Make sure you are pulling straight back.

I try to avoid bone on stock contact with my cheek. My jaw is touching but not hard enough for the bone to make contact, only the flesh and meat. Consistent head placement is also key. I try to keep my head level, not canted/cocked to the side. Eyes/ears parallel with the horizon.

The NPA needs to be dead nuts on. If the cross hairs are not on the target right were they need to be...then move the gun. If you are muscling the crosshairs onto the target before the shot your follow through will be more inconsistent.

Try to get as directly behind the gun as possible. Not the old school High Power method. Your barrel, shoulder, hip, and right leg should all be in line. Heels touching the ground.

In the field with uneven surfaces, odd angles, fatigue, and moving targets this becomes all the more important. Waddling from the detailed SUV to the concrete bench with a Starbucks in your hand, not so much.

This is assuming you have a rig that mechanically will do it. Optics, load, barrel, etc.

Again, this is just my opinion.

a0cake

07-20-12, 13:06

Are you wrapping your thumb around the pistol grip or placing it vertically along the spine / letting it rest against the receiver wall on the strong hand side? This is not necessarily gas-gun specific, but if you're moving from a traditional stock to a vertical pistol grip it may be something to look at.

TehLlama

07-20-12, 14:38

It seems you've eliminated a fair amount of the mechanical side of the question, but I'm curious at what range are you shooting at 1.5MOA, and then what weight bullets are you running. It's not unusual for 53-55gr projectiles to group better out to 200m even in very accurate guns, and also not strange that certain barrels will dislike a certain brand/weight/ogive/sectional density projectiles.
Are your handloads running the same bullet as the factory ones?

I'm worse behind my SSA-E equipped Mk12 clone that the rifle itself is, but when I get the things Strow mentions right, it's barely noticeable, if not indistinguishable when I'm running something other than match ammo through that upper. I've also learned that that barrel likes the Hornady 75gr projectiles more than the PPU 75gr, but outclasses me completely using 69gr SMK from BH or PPU stuff.

prodgi

07-20-12, 18:37

strow

07-20-12, 21:27

I just had Noveske replace a brand new SS upper that would not shoot. 4 bullets, 4 powders, 3 factory match loads. None would do better than 1.5moa.

The replacement barrel shoots 24.5gr Varget, Win brass, Wolf primers, and 75gr Hornady BTHP into sub MOA at 400yd.

Sometime you just get a bad barrel.

Try someones rig that will shoot sub moa for them. If there rig will go sub MOA for you then it's an equipment issue.

SteveS

07-20-12, 22:40

Your ar may not be as accurate as a bolt gun.

lunchbox

07-20-12, 22:55

Your ar may not be as accurate as a bolt gun.
I was always lead to belive AR platform will be less accurate vs bolt gun. AR with its multiple moving parts, violent extraction(esp in carbine gas length) before bullet has even left barrel. The bolt action locks up completly until shooter cycles action, the only movment is trigger. So in order to get AR shooting like bolt, Its has to be set up with precision in mind (trigger,barrel,etc) to match bolt acc.

MegademiC

07-21-12, 00:40

Try someones rig that will shoot sub moa for them. If there rig will go sub MOA for you then it's an equipment issue.

This is great advice - and conversely... get someone who can shoot ars better than you (a known moa-sub moa shooter or such) shoot yours. If they also get 1.5" group or close - you'll know its the gun. Make sure its properly put together - tight scope rings/screws and tight barrel nut. Even if you "know" its right - double check everything before dropping $ on replacement parts.

fr3db3ar

07-21-12, 22:04

What twist is your barrel? I'll assume its faster than 1 in 9.

Currently my R-15 is running Varget, CCI400, LC brass, 55 Vmax getting 3/4 to 1 MOA.

It really sounds like you could have a component/ammo issue.

lunchbox

07-21-12, 22:37

I always liked the heavier bullets with Varget esp 69gr hpbt and 77gr

Cameron

07-22-12, 00:51

a Fulton Armory (Criterion) barrel.

I think you may have reached the accuracy potential of the barrel at 1.5MOA. I have personal experience with 3 different Criterion barrels and all seemed very close to 1.5" at 100yds even with good shooters and match ammo. I have also heard similar accounts from 3 others that have has the same experience with the Criterion barrels. I have shot much better groups (sub MOA) with both Lothar Walther and Noveske match barrels than with the Criterion. I no longer own a Criterion SS barrel and I am thinking of picking up another Lothar Walther in the future.

Cameron

prodgi

07-22-12, 17:12

Where are you getting your Lothar Walther barrels from?
As far as the Criterion barrels go I opt'd for it only because WOA was out and going to be for a while at the time I ordered. I read a little about them and everything at that time was very good. The rifles Fulton Armory builds and sells with this barrel have a 1moa guarantee so I'd like to assume that I should be able to expect that but you know what they say about assumptions.
I'll contact FA and see what they say.
Thanks.

JStor

07-23-12, 20:37

I think that you haven't found the sweet load for your rifle. Rifles may shoot a variety of bullets into 1.5 inches, but when the "right" bullet is found, .5 inch groups can be achieved.

My bolt gun loves Sierra 69 gr. MatchKings over 24.5 grs. Varget at 2915 ft/sec. , so I was surprised when I shot the same load in a Colt HBar Elite and the expected tight group was about an inch. But I kept working with it, and before long I found that it loved 60 gr. Hornady V-Max bullets over 26 grs. of Win 748 or Varget powder. It began to drill those nice looking .5 inch five round groups with velocity at 3060 ft/sec.

I did an article for "Precision Shooting" magazine some years back comparing my varmint Model 70 Winchester and the Colt CR6724 varmint AR15. I fired four ten round groups with each rifle, back to back and averaged the group measurements. Each rifle was fired with its favorite load, and the bolt gun won...but not by much. If I recall correctly, the Model 70 averaged .8 or .9 for the 40 rounds and the HBar Elite averaged an inch or a shade over. Each rifle produced 5 round groups of .5 inch and sometimes even less. But add another 5 and human error begins to manifest, especially if you have a bug hole going and you know that a single bullet will ruin your average...and don't forget the wind. That tiny puff of breeze at the wrong time can ruin your .5 inch rather easily.

prodgi

07-25-12, 21:41

Well I sent Fulton Armory an e-mail a few days ago, they got back with me today.
Here is a copy of the e-mail I sent them with personal info deleted and then their lame response.

"Just wondering. I purchased one of your Criterion AR-15 barrels several months ago and now I'm wondering what level of accuracy I should be getting. The barrel I have is the H-Bar NM SS 1x8. The accuracy I've been able to get out of it is averaging right at 1.5moa. I was expecting better and while I admit I am still developing as a shooter, no one else that has shot this rifle has been able to do better, one particular shooter has been shooting matches for 30 years. I've tried mainly handloads but some factory stuff also, nothing seems to change. Is this the accuracy I should expect? Dose that sound correct? I was hoping to start shooting some matches this year but have been chasing a rabbit it seems to get this thing shooting better.Until now I thought it just had to be me and or the need to find a pet load for the gun but now I'm wondering if I've just met the limitations of the gun.
I'd greatly appreciate your reply and or help.
Thanks."

Their unedited reply.

"Our FAR-15 rifles with those barrels are guaranteed between 1.5, 1, & sub MOA based on the rifle so seems correct to me

Regards,
Clint Jr."

Well I still think I got some improvement to make as a shooter but I got no idea how they can say "those barrels are guaranteed between 1.5, 1, & sub MOA" or how a 1.5 moa barrel is a match barrel.
Oh well, I guess I'll just have to live with it for now and see if the advice given here is going to make a difference or not.

Thanks all, I appreciate the time you spent giving me some help.

ColtJ

07-25-12, 23:42

For what it's worth, i had a hard time getting my rifle to shoot well at first as well.

I built a rifle with a 20" Krieger.

It started out with pretty bad groups, I would the stack first two shots, then stack two more an inch away and have the shots go back and forth, etc... You would think I had mixed ammo in the mag.

I almost burnt the rifle a few times...

The same would repeat regardless of what ammo was in there, i tried a few different Hornday loads, Black Hills 69gr and 77gr in .223 and 5.56, Atlanta Arms 77gr 5.56 and a few other brands I can't remember at 100 yards.

I do not know anyone in my area to trade idea's with etc... So I had to self train a lot.

I found practicing my follow through helped a lot as I started seeing the shots right away where I had to search for the holes before. Then I started catching inconsistencies in how I load the bipod, place my head behind the scope, etc... Once I became more consistent so did the groups, etc...

I can only assume how your griping the rifle is also different compared to a bolt gun, try playing with your grip. It might help.

Now I can keep 10 round groups around ~.8 MOA and 5 round groups pretty tight using Black Hills 77gr .223 and the Atlanta Arms 77gr 5.56.

MegademiC

07-25-12, 23:51

Gonna throw something out that might be stupid... but how many rounds are through the barrel? If it was machined pretty rough, it may need broken in a bit more. I read about people shooting SS match barrels saying 2-4k rounds is where the accuracy is best IIRC. numbers might be off as it was a while ago and i'm going from memory here. That said, it wasnt 1.5 moa turning into .5, but it did get a little better.

prodgi

07-26-12, 00:03

MistWolf

07-26-12, 05:35

...AR with its multiple moving parts, violent extraction(esp in carbine gas length) before bullet has even left barrel...

There is no extraction, violent or otherwise, while the bullet is inside the bore. The BCG does not begin moving until after the bullet leaves the barrel

Where are you getting your Lothar Walther barrels from?
Thanks.
Little Crow Gunworks. They have Lothar Walther barrels on GB all the time. Customer service is top notch and they offer the L-W barrel with a 30 day money back guarantee as long as you don't abuse it. My 20" L-W barrel likes the longer bullets http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297984775

Check your optic, rings and mount. Shoot the rifle with the muzzle device removed. If a muzzle device is installed too tightly, it can deform the barrel at the muzzle.

Criterion does not make match barrels. They make good affordable barrels that deliver reasonable accuracy and anything better than 1.5 MOA would be a pleasant surprise

Pappabear

07-26-12, 11:10

I would guess if your gun was capable, with the trigger, your experience etc. you have a 1.5 inch gun. I have a 18 inch WOA RIFLE LENGTH GAS system that shoots well under an inch and will often give .5 inch.

Conversely, my 5R bolt will shoot the same 69 and 77 gr ammo .5 to .25 consistently. 5 shot groups.

I would guess your ammo / barrel are 1.5, NOT YOU.

My 11.5 and other SBR's shoot 1.5.

Only question, what glass are you using? I run ACOG's on many of my AR's. And can shoot 1.5 to 2 inch groups. But to get smaller I need to pop on precision glass. I have a regular scope and LARUE mount in my bag to check accuracy on my AR's. Kinda an expensive luxury, but I just ended up with it from left overs through upgrading.

You need decent glass for most folks to tighten groups, my old eyes do.

lunchbox

07-26-12, 11:30

There is no extraction, violent or otherwise, while the bullet is inside the bore. The BCG does not begin moving until after the bullet leaves the barrel

Little Crow Gunworks. They have Lothar Walther barrels on GB all the time. Customer service is top notch and they offer the L-W barrel with a 30 day money back guarantee as long as you don't abuse it. My 20" L-W barrel likes the longer bullets http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297984775

Check your optic, rings and mount. Shoot the rifle with the muzzle device removed. If a muzzle device is installed too tightly, it can deform the barrel at the muzzle.

Criterion does not make match barrels. They make good affordable barrels that deliver reasonable accuracy and anything better than 1.5 MOA would be a pleasant surpriseYou are right, I should have worded that differ(here we go)..In the cases of overgassed carbines the lugs are being forced to unlock before bullet leaves barrel. In this case a lot of accuracy can be lost. A simple fix is to correct timming with heavier buffer, to slow down BCG cycle.

MegademiC

07-26-12, 11:46

I dont think thats correct either. It may cause the bolt to unlock while pressure is still above atmospheric, but not while bullet is still in barrel. I would think that the bolt unlocking while under 20kpsi or so would result in a bad time.

I think its the barrel more than gas system.

MistWolf

07-26-12, 13:21

Arctic1

07-26-12, 14:30

A couple of questions on some things I did not see:

I assume that you are shooting supported, but off of what? A bench, bipod, sandbag etc?

Also, is there parallax adjustment on you scope? If so, make sure it is dialed in.

Now, the following is my opinion, so others experiences may vary and opinions differ.

I do not know if your goal is to shoot tiny groups, or just "get hits" at long range, but here are some tips on marksmanship so you can hopefully tighten up that group.

1. Consistency is paramount in everything you do. Stock placement, cheek weld, eye relief, breathing, loading of bipod, body position etc. But most importantly, you need to be consistent throughout the string of fire. Even a slight change in something you do behind the gun can cause a POI shift.

I see it all the time with my soldiers, when we initially teach them to shoot, where they will take one shot, change something, take a new shot, change something and so forth until the string is complete. When they have 2" groups at 30 meters, it's not hard to tell them why.

2. Make sure that your shooting position is comfortable, that you are relaxed behind your gun. Also, when setting up the rifle, try to ensure that it is pointing straight at the target. Then, as has been stated, get as directly behind the gun as you can. Barrel, stock shoulder, hip should be in line, with the imaginary line that forms exiting somewhere on your right thigh (if you are right handed).

Do not muscle the gun on to the target, as that will cause unneeded muscle fatigue and pressure on the gun.

Let the gun recoil and do it's thing. If you have a good prone position, the sights should fall directly back on target.

Good shooting!

prodgi

07-26-12, 23:55

Ok to answer a few of the question asked. All shooting has been from prone with a midway usa shooting mat that has the loop to load the bi-pod, I've been loading the bi-pod and doing my best to keep it as consistent as I can. But I'm sure there is room from improvement. I have not been pulling the gun into my shoulder as been advised by a few members here but I will start doing that. It's going to be a week at least before I get back to the range, side work is keeping me busy right now.

Yes the Parallax has been adjusted every time.

The scope I'm using....
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx

The mount...
http://swfa.com/Bobro-Precision-Optic-30mm-Mount-P47627.aspx

The gun... and no the GA Precision rig in back ain't mine :( and needless to say it shoots much better than my AR.;)
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/PRODGI/IMG_0454.jpg
Oh and of course I don't expect my AR to shoot 1/4moa like the GA gun dose, any bolt gun seems to shoot more easily than my AR.
My shooting partner has suggested getting rid of the SOPOD stock as they are a little tricky to get a bag under them but I'm not wanting to spend the cash to just see what happens so I got creative with some kydex just to see if it helps.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/PRODGI/IMG_0088.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/PRODGI/IMG_0090.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/PRODGI/IMG_0469.jpg

It's not going to be a long term fix for the stock but it was easy enough to try. Battleline Industries is supposed to be developing a mono-pod attachment for the SOPMOD stock so I'm holding out for that. Their SAPR stock thingy looks pretty slick too but again, I don't know that it'll make a real difference and that's a lot of cash to just throw at the problem just to see what happens.
I'm leaning heavily to thinking that I'm the problem and you guys have been a huge help with somethings that I need to take into consideration and try.

Pappabear

07-27-12, 00:47

Well, it aint the scope. Im guessing the load. Just for grins, buy some 55grain vmax hornady. They shoot an inch in everything decent.

Your load or barrel are less than perfect, or they don't like each other.

rob_s

07-27-12, 04:50

It seems pretty straightforward, the company where's he got his barrel said his results are in spec, hence if he wants tighter tighter groups he should have bought, or should buy, a better barrel.

OP don't be so quick to dismiss training. Just because the trend of the day is pistol classes with long guns doesn't mean that's what everyone does. Randy Cain's carbine class will go out to 200 yards if the facility has it available, and that class is really a rifle class taught with the carbine. He also offers an urban precision class that may be more in line with what you're doing.

prodgi

07-27-12, 06:57

OP don't be so quick to dismiss training.

Oh I don't dismiss training, I can't take a class anytime soon for various reasons but I do plan to take more. I know there are lots of guys here that know their stuff and if I can get some help from them for now why not?

lunchbox

07-27-12, 07:40

Mega is right. The bolt cannot unlock until the bolt carrier moves rearward enough for the bolt cam to start turning the bolt. The carrier does not begin moving until the bullet has left the bore. It is the residual pressure in the rifle that operates it (the gases take awhile to vent after the bullet uncorks the barrel). Being over gassed should not affect accuracy unless it has a negative affect on barrel harmonics

I do stand corrected. Thankyou for settn me straight. Not sure how I came about said info, but untill you corrected I belived that. Thanks "Little is learned through success and much through failure". Lunchbox

rob_s

07-27-12, 10:34

Oh I don't dismiss training, I can't take a class anytime soon for various reasons but I do plan to take more. I know there are lots of guys here that know their stuff and if I can get some help from them for now why not?

Well, like I said, I think it's pretty clear that you've maxed out the guaranteed performance of the barrel you have based on the response that you got, so you're going to need a new barrel if you want to be able to shoot tighter groups.

Boxerglocker

07-27-12, 11:34

The grouping has been at 100yds, the handloads have been 52grain SMK, 68&75grain Hornady and 77grain Nolser. All powder has been Varget, all brass has been LC and all primers have been CCI400.Factory ammo has only been some 55grain? Hornady and XM193. I know the XM193 is not tack driving ammo but the results were basically the same as the other stuff.
Oddly enough the best groups I've had has been with the GI trigger before I dropped in the SSA-E. I have been fighting this thing for a while and got some advice from other shooters to get a trigger better suited for this type of shooting. I basicly just wanted to find out just what the limits were truly going to be with a GI trigger and after several months I thought I had found my NPA and opted to for the SSA-E thinking that it would have some postive and immediate effects on my groups. Well I'm tired of throwing money and parts at the problem thinking that I just need this or that and bolt it on and fix the issue. I know that I'm not doing something right, and there has been some good advice given that I will work on.
Thanks guys.

Have you considered that all the hand loads you have used though stellar performers in a bolt gun just are not capable of doing better than 1.5 MOA in your AR?
I'll give you an example last week I tested Nosler 55g Baliistic tips with H335 loads for groups out of my bolt gun a R700 SPS TAC. I settled on 24.5g as it gave me the best grouping of .284 MOA
I loaded up another 100 rounds and yesterday rechecked for groups out of the R700, 3 group all under .4 MOA.... Move to my DD4 Carbine 16inch Battle comp, Milspec... but a rifle I have a sub MOA handload for and have tested numerous times in the past.
Best I could accomplish was 1.2 MOA. OP, I honestly think its just the rifle load combo.

prodgi

07-27-12, 19:36

Well, like I said, I think it's pretty clear that you've maxed out the guaranteed performance of the barrel you have based on the response that you got, so you're going to need a new barrel if you want to be able to shoot tighter groups.

I see you point but I don't know for sure how to take this statement from them ""Our FAR-15 rifles with those barrels are guaranteed between 1.5, 1, & sub MOA based on the rifle so seems correct to me"
So those same barrels are capable of .5moa depending on the rifle? Well I got a FF handguard and a good trigger, I torqued the barrel nut properly, I even lapped the upper receiver and installed the A2 flashider loosely and used loctite to keep it in place.
I'm not saying I have not met the limitations of the gun I'm just saying that I know there has got to be a difference in the way you shoot a bolt gun vs an AR and I think there has been some good posts from some fellow members that agree and have some great ideas that I need to try. If I could spend the money on a different barrel and instantly start shooting better I'd be happy but I'm not sure that I'm not to blame, (even though other have not done much better with the gun)
So yes I agree with what you are saying but have not yet ruled out me being part of the problem.

ThreeFingerPete

07-28-12, 01:23

Sorry for the ND.

ThreeFingerPete

07-28-12, 01:24

I see you point but I don't know for sure how to take this statement from them ""Our FAR-15 rifles with those barrels are guaranteed between 1.5, 1, & sub MOA based on the rifle so seems correct to me"
So those same barrels are capable of .5moa depending on the rifle? Well I got a FF handguard and a good trigger, I torqued the barrel nut properly, I even lapped the upper receiver and installed the A2 flashider loosely and used loctite to keep it in place.
I'm not saying I have not met the limitations of the gun I'm just saying that I know there has got to be a difference in the way you shoot a bolt gun vs an AR and I think there has been some good posts from some fellow members that agree and have some great ideas that I need to try. If I could spend the money on a different barrel and instantly start shooting better I'd be happy but I'm not sure that I'm not to blame, (even though other have not done much better with the gun)
So yes I agree with what you are saying but have not yet ruled out me being part of the problem.

I've had rifles that presented the same concerns that you're having. Ultimately, if other good shooters can't get your rifle to group, you can pretty much bet that the rifle isn't going to group for anyone. It's good that you aren't pointing fingers at your equipment, but at some point, if the shooter can be eliminated as a factor, then you pretty much have your answer.

I would also try some different loads. Try some heavier bullets, see if the gun responds.

MistWolf

07-28-12, 12:16

...If I could spend the money on a different barrel and instantly start shooting better I'd be happy but I'm not sure that I'm not to blame, (even though other have not done much better with the gun)
So yes I agree with what you are saying but have not yet ruled out me being part of the problem.

You make a good point here. It does no good to spend money on a more accurate barrel if the shooter isn't up to the task

Sierra276

07-28-12, 17:55

Prodgi...

Since you have been given so many good points to consider, the only ones I didn't hear yet, was to try # 1 Video yourself while shooting several strings, so that you can review and if possible, be able to super slow motion it to see you and the weapons movement during the the entire process... Simple and cost effective...
( sometimes even a good coach / spotter may miss subtile mistakes )

The more experienced a shooter, the easier it is to fall into some less than perfect habits... Sometimes we develop different habits with a bolt gun, than we do with an auto...

# 2 If you produce better groups from # 1, and would like to try and improve them a little more, try a Young Manufaturing National Match Chrome M-16 Bolt Carrier, which may provide a more consistant Bolt alignment... ( Remember to first check the headspace with the new set-up...)

Nice job on the Kydex support...

MistWolf

07-28-12, 23:41

I asked the Service Rifle match shooters about the Young NM BCG. They said it does nothing to improve accuracy and they would know

MikeMcC

08-06-12, 22:27

A couple of thoughts:
1.) Don't drop charge Varget for accuracy testing. I'm sure you get it close, but it's still a fine cut stick powder that won't always come out evenly; regardless of the measure you're using.

2.) Try different powders. I once had a CZ550 Varmint in 22-250 that wouldn't shoot anything under 1" at 100 yards until I tried Reloader 10x; that gun suddenly became a one hole gun. The point of this isn't to say RL10x is the be all/end-all of powders, but only that powder variety can make a huge difference.

3.) I'm not sure the rest type you're using, but if it's a bi-pod, move to a good quality sandbag with a sand rear rest.

If it were me, I wouldn't spend another dollar on equipment until I had done more load testing. With advise you get what you pay for, and mine is free :)

Mike R

08-14-12, 11:30

I think the suggestion to do more load development and software improvement is a good one. I have seen 2 moa buckshot pattern ARs drop to being consistent 5/8 moa performers without any hardware changes. There is a rifles only video floating around online somewhere where they talk about the proper application of fundamentals to gas guns.
What made the biggest difference for me in my AR adventures has been to keep the trigger to the rear until the bolt carried returns to battery, and using the trigger reset much like a Glock. Boltguns seem to be more forgiving than ARs but good followthrough and establishing a solid NPA can make the platform work. If you have ruled out all mechanical assembly issues including scope mounting try more handloads and technique- trying other gas guns might be telling. There is a lot of information on techniques for gas guns out there.