View Full Version : Recent events and rethinking CCW caliber...
Reagans Rascals
07-22-12, 08:33
The recent events in Colorado have me rethinking my CCW caliber (9mm), and possibly considering switching to a round capable of solid terminal ballistics while also defeating soft armor. To my knowledge, there are only 2 widely available handgun calibers (5.7x28, and .357 SIG) capable of defeating soft armor.
Those with experience, whether its Mil, LEO, or other... please chime in with what caliber you think provides a solid combination of performance for both "stopping power" and armor defeating capability.
The asshole in Colorado was wearing body armor, so it has me thinking that in that situation, had I been there and tried to engage him with my CCW, I would have only succeeded in getting myself killed... thus.... my search for a caliber that may have been beneficial in that type of situation.....
Lets try to stay on topic and not muddy the waters by saying 9mm is fine and I just need to train and train and train to the point where I can just engage them with head shots, because that's not a realistic expectation it that type of situation... it'll be body shots... and body shots against an armored target a good time does not make... unless you have the right caliber...
What calibers provide the best possible results in both engaging armored and non-armored targets.... I understand you cannot have one that does both the best... but I would settle for one that does both well...
this would be for a high-cap semi-auto pistol... not a revolver
5.7x28
.357 SIG
10mm?
commercially available 9mm AP rounds?
Folks who intentionally carry handguns into harm's way and known threats didn't wake up and want to go shopping. What happened in CO isn't anything new or anything that isn't already being experienced by them and others. Not to be mean, but that's a clue.
You're wanting to explore calibers (and then platforms) that offer combinations of greater expense, greater shooter fatigue, greater wear, less sustainability, less size efficiency, and other liabilities. What's not to like?
Further, nothing on your list is going to give me what I would want for a solution to both soft-armored and unarmored threats. No, not even the 5.7.
But if you have to buy something... I would get something in 357SIG. When this new worry has passed you can then drop a 40SW barrel in it and have something more useful.
Eat a delicious meal, hug your family, and go to the range with what you have. It'll pass.
Reagans Rascals
07-22-12, 09:32
Folks who intentionally carry handguns into harm's way and known threats didn't wake up and want to go shopping. What happened in CO isn't anything new or anything that isn't already being experienced by them and others. Not to be mean, but that's a clue.
You're wanting to explore calibers (and then platforms) that offer combinations of greater expense, greater shooter fatigue, greater wear, less sustainability, less size efficiency, and other liabilities. What's not to like?
Further, nothing on your list is going to give me what I would want for a solution to both soft-armored and unarmored threats. No, not even the 5.7.
But if you have to buy something... I would get something in 357SIG. When this new worry has passed you can then drop a 40SW barrel in it and have something more useful.
Eat a delicious meal, hug your family, and go to the range with what you have. It'll pass.
I have a .40 S&W, .45 ACP and a few 9mm's... I'm simply asking what would provide an adequate bridge-gap between regular carry calibers and those with AP capability
I don't think viewing a growing trend in violent altercations as a fad... and I don't consider it paranoia to look at other possible options to try and be the best prepared for the majority of situations I could imagine I'd encounter
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52300&highlight=pelvic+head+shot
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47447&highlight=pelvic+head+shot
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20586&highlight=pelvic+head+shot
Just some info that might help
I think shot placement is far more important than cal size. In pretty much every class I've taken, have covered engaging armored targets and armored drills to practice. I'm not muddyn waters, just sayn thump em in the armor a couple times (its gonna slow em down) then quick shot to head as they fall over from double tap to chest armor add in being top heavy.. If nothing else keep shooting in armor till they fall down (whatever cal) walk over stand on their chest and then go for head shot.:D
ComradeBoris
07-22-12, 10:22
Violence of crime is a growing trend, but consider this:
Using a gun to defend you life or the family's is possibly of no significance statistically. But the cost and perceived threat is grave enough we carry anyway. You want to employ something that is even less likely to happen with the armor theory. Jason Falla said something in his blog that made sense to me, " The decision was made based around vehicle check points and the USMC's desire to have a round that can penetrate auto-glass IOT stop a potential VBIED from entering the check-point! Okay, so what about 90% of the other marines that are facing the enemy in the open?" Although I know the mk318 does well in people too the point is still the same. Mission drives the gear. What is your most likely threat?
I am not trying to be a dick or anything, just give you some food for thought. Kyle Defoor mentions carrying fmj and jhp every other round. If you feel compelled perhaps some thing like that is an option. It would be cheaper than a new gun.
Unfortunately, the concept of an armor-blind handgun round with respectable terminal ballistics (a PDW round) has far outpaced the technology and support behind it.
I agree with Skintop, to an extent; practice with what you have, consider and train for an NSR or failure to stop scenario. If you're seriously thinking you're going up against an armored threat, grab a long gun; at present, that seems the best option.
Microalign
07-22-12, 10:30
Not all body armor is created equally, and the .357sig will not penetrate quality soft armor. In many cases, the 5.7mm will not penetrate quality soft armor either. A ceramic chest plate will stop almost all ammo types for calibers up to a .30-06.
Violence of crime is a growing trend, but consider this:
Using a gun to defend you life or the family's is possibly of no significance statistically. But the cost and perceived threat is grave enough we carry anyway. You want to employ something that is even less likely to happen with the armor theory. Jason Falla said something in his blog that made sense to me, " The decision was made based around vehicle check points and the USMC's desire to have a round that can penetrate auto-glass IOT stop a potential VBIED from entering the check-point! Okay, so what about 90% of the other marines that are facing the enemy in the open?" Although I know the mk318 does well in people too the point is still the same. Mission drives the gear. What is your most likely threat?
I am not trying to be a dick or anything, just give you some food for thought. Kyle Defoor mentions carrying fmj and jhp every other round. If you feel compelled perhaps some thing like that is an option. It would be cheaper than a new gun.Please go further into logic behind this setup for defensive situation. I also run what I call a "Party mix" clip, and would like to hear what Defoor says about this; as it relates to subject.
I've thought the issue over more since this shooting took place and have come to the conclusions above; deal with what I have. I really don't think there is any pistol round that is worth looking into more than any other.
As noted above, what if the threat has ceramic plates that can withstand hits from rifles? I could worry myself to death over being confronted with an armored threat...but I can only do so much.
Not all body armor is created equally, and the .357sig will not penetrate quality soft armor. In many cases, the 5.7mm will not penetrate quality soft armor either. A ceramic chest plate will stop almost all ammo types for calibers up to a .30-06.I was not impressed with this round at all. The military with their available ammo selection is a diffferent thing, but for civy use..Meh https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
If you just want to punch holes in soft armor 7.62x25 in a CZ52 or TT33. Im not saying the guns are perfect CC guns but the caliber will do it in soft armor (or whatever the avg body armor is called) especially with Czech AP ammo.
Years ago (2000-2001) my friends and i did our own informal test. We just wanted to see what the bullets actually do. Police style vest and a concrete wall were the targets. Guns used were a TT33, S&W snub 357/38, Ruger 9mm.
The 9/38/357 didnt penetrate the vest and flattened out on the concrete wall without so much as a chip in the wall. The x25 ammo was S. African Cheetah, Yugo and Czech surplus, all fmj. All 3 ripped through the vest without issue. The Yugo and Cheetah ammo punched into the concrete wall about 1/2 inch. The Cz AP ammo punched in almost an inch. None of the bullets flattened out, instead they all mushroomed. The distance was about 30 feet
This was just a test we did out of curiosity. And i know these older guns aren't ideal for CC (although the Yugo TT does have a 1911 style safety) so im just throwing this out there. Maybe a Glock or a 1911 7.62x25 conversion.
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DAVID RICHARDS
07-22-12, 11:19
The 5.7 will not defeat the best body armor with the rounds civilians can shoot through it. The .357 SIG will not. 7.63x25 can defeat up to level II body armor. So will other rounds. All the major service caliber rounds have AP versions. So it is not caliber but bullet design. With SAPI plates some body armor will stop rifle rounds.
Since you can't as a civilian buy AP rounds your best bet is to try for either a mobility stop (read legs and lower body) or the head. It is hard to stop someone who has planned that well as to what they are going to do. I'd stay with 9mm. At least you have lots of rounds to try to get the legs or head and can shoot fast. of course YMMV.
I was not impressed with this round at all. The military with their available ammo selection is a diffferent thing, but for civy use..Meh https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913
I agree, the commercial 5.7 loads ballistics are a glorified 22 magnum.
Hornady's new Critical Duty rounds are designed to defeat barriers, but soft armour is hard for handguns to beat.
maddawg5777
07-22-12, 11:37
Ive always had a concern here in colorado about armored individuals. You always hear about so ass clown that broke into military members vehicles to steal gear. We all know pistols are weak versus any kind of armor. My thoughts are to just try to thump em enough to slow em down until you can escape/grab a long gun/or maneuver to a position to take them down and dispatch them at close range in a weak spot. Obviously option a and b are more likely.
As far as caliber id say stick with what you have and train. Enough shots even on soft armor is enough to break bones or cause internal bleeding.
Train more with what you have. Headshot maybe? I'd be more concerned about where those AP rounds are going to end up than the chance of encountering someone in soft armor.
Not what you're wanting to hear again, but as a LEO, I've determined that the 9mm is the best all around cartridge for me. The choices offered by my agency are 9mm and .40, but even if I could get anything I wanted, it would still be a 9mm.
I've recently made that transition in the last year, after 7 years of carrying .40's mainly because "everybody else was doing it". There's not much difference really, but everything I can do with a .40 can be done faster and in greater quantities with the 9mm, so that is how I reached the conclusion that I did.
If you're determined to have some armor defeating capability, throw a Tokarev in your go bag... A $200 solution, that is just as likely I work as the other cartridges mentioned.
So the possibility of facing a threat with armor now has us chasing calibers that will penetrate soft armor? And zip through soft targets and pose an even greater danger to innocents beyond?
Not good IMO.
I have heard that insanity is defined as repeating the same actions while expecting a different result. To me, the recent events do not in any way have me searching for armor defeating CCW ammo. Rather it motivates me to give a little more concentration on failure responses. Software, not hardware. That's just me though.
ComradeBoris
07-22-12, 11:58
Please go further into logic behind this setup for defensive situation. I also run what I call a "Party mix" clip, and would like to hear what Defoor says about this; as it relates to subject.
You would have to ask him as I do not employ this practice. I am merely making you aware of someone who seemed to validate using it. I respect Kyle Defoor and his opinion as he has a great degree of reason for doing what he does. I think, though you should really be asking him, that he validates it with FMJ's superior ability to penetrate some harder objects and barriers than a JHP. Me, in my environment, I am mainly concerned with glass penetration and calling it good. I think it again comes down to what is your mission, what is your environment, what gear will support your mission in your environment. I am not really recommending you do anything other than think about what your mission needs are. You can ask your question on the SME forum and ask Kyle directly.
As has been mentioned, if you are engaging an armored target with a pistol, you are in nothing short of a world of shit. Your options seem to come down to maneuvering if possible to optimize the employment of your weapon system, if that is not possible, NSR, or going for any available non armored areas of the body. In reality, many people are not stopped by pistol caliber rounds so to think an NSR is going to help with armor added might be optimistic. Alas, if you found yourself in this situation with 9mm JHP's against an armored target with multiple long guns etc. you have to accept the shitiness of the situation and make the best call you can. There is so much conjecture in shooting scenarios and situations it is a wonder we can plan at all, but I think not straying far from what people who have administered the prescription of a dirt nap to turds all over the world teach is probably a good idea.
You would have to ask him as I do not employ this practice. I am merely making you aware of someone who seemed to validate using it. I respect Kyle Defoor and his opinion as he has a great degree of reason for doing what he does. I think, though you should really be asking him, that he validates it with FMJ's superior ability to penetrate some harder objects and barriers than a JHP. Me, in my environment, I am mainly concerned with glass penetration and calling it good. I think it again comes down to what is your mission, what is your environment, what gear will support your mission in your environment. I am not really recommending you do anything other than think about what your mission needs are. You can ask your question on the SME forum and ask Kyle directly.
As has been mentioned, if you are engaging an armored target with a pistol, you are in nothing short of a world of shit. Your options seem to come down to maneuvering if possible to optimize the employment of your weapon system, if that is not possible, NSR, or going for any available non armored areas of the body. In reality, many people are not stopped by pistol caliber rounds so to think an NSR is going to help with armor added might be optimistic. Alas, if you found yourself in this situation with 9mm JHP's against an armored target with multiple long guns etc. you have to accept the shitiness of the situation and make the best call you can. There is so much conjecture in shooting scenarios and situations it is a wonder we can plan at all, but I think not straying far from what people who have administered the prescription of a dirt nap to turds all over the world teach is probably a good idea.
I was just wondering if he made quick mention behind setup.
ComradeBoris
07-22-12, 12:25
Here you go boss:
IMO, Gold Dot is the winner. However, I carry stacked mags when possible- GD, ball, GD, etc.
Because every other round does anything
Why stacked mags?
Stacked rounds defeat any medium.
I don't care if it's +p or not
RR, as you can see your logic may be a bit flawed. Don't get me wrong, the fact that you are puzzling through the potential problem and trying to find a solution is a positive. There is not a handgun round commonly available that will reliably penetrate modern soft body armor. While AP might be a choice (if you could get it), you then run the risk of over penetration.
Rather then chase the problem with equipment I would strongly suggest training to deal with the issue. Yes, I know you didn't want the conversation to go in this direction, but it is the most logical step. Train for a NSR (non-standard response). If multiple rounds on target don't have the desired effect move to a different part of his/her anatomy. Don't only get locked in on head shots. Consider multiple rounds to the pelvic girdle. While it may not be immediately fatal, effective hits will at least limit the BGs mobility.
As previously mentioned to reliably defeat soft armor you will need a rifle and with the availability of plates even that's not a guarantee.
You need to be prepared for you rounds to not work as you might like regardless of what the ads and articles in the gun rags say.
Hogsgunwild
07-22-12, 12:43
I've thought a lot about things that could enhance your odds of success in a total lose / lose, deck stacked against you, horrific, cluster-**** situation like those poor people in Colorado faced. I came to the conclusion that my hi-cap 9MM was still my best option.
Besides the conclusions that I arrived at regarding the crappy tactical choices that I would be faced with:
-running with my five-year-old and us both taking it in the back, or,
-hiding, waiting, letting him come to us prior to engaging (another shitty option but depending on where you were located in the theater, one might be forced to do these first two options), or,
-leaving my child to perform my own Kamikaze / suicide attack against the perp thus taking any incoming fire away from my son, and, with any luck, using the chaos to attempt to get into the attacker's blind spot long enough to tackle him or at least to get as close as possible prior to engaging if I didn't reach my goal of tackling him (remember the armor would make him less flexible and the gas mask would give him some tunnel vision / poor situational awareness).
In every situation I felt that I wanted to have fast accurate fire on the subject so I could concentrate on the head.
The single most important conclusion that I arrived at to help increase my survivability if I was ever unlucky enough to be up against body armor was just that I need to increase my knowledge of body armor itself.
Learn about different types of armor and where the weaker locations are that could potentially be worthy of a shot given the situation. Do crotch shots always hurt with all types of armor? etc.
Until then, the head would be my goal.
I would love to hear any of the SMEs' or DocGKR's input on the matter but I don't know how much of this topic is taboo on a public forum.
The recent events in Colorado have me rethinking my CCW caliber (9mm), and possibly considering switching to a round capable of solid terminal ballistics while also defeating soft armor. To my knowledge, there are only 2 widely available handgun calibers (5.7x28, and .357 SIG) capable of defeating soft armor.
Those with experience, whether its Mil, LEO, or other... please chime in with what caliber you think provides a solid combination of performance for both "stopping power" and armor defeating capability.
The asshole in Colorado was wearing body armor, so it has me thinking that in that situation, had I been there and tried to engage him with my CCW, I would have only succeeded in getting myself killed... thus.... my search for a caliber that may have been beneficial in that type of situation.....
Lets try to stay on topic and not muddy the waters by saying 9mm is fine and I just need to train and train and train to the point where I can just engage them with head shots, because that's not a realistic expectation it that type of situation... it'll be body shots... and body shots against an armored target a good time does not make... unless you have the right caliber...
What calibers provide the best possible results in both engaging armored and non-armored targets.... I understand you cannot have one that does both the best... but I would settle for one that does both well...
this would be for a high-cap semi-auto pistol... not a revolver
5.7x28
.357 SIG
10mm?
commercially available 9mm AP rounds?
You are tracking to go headlong the wrong direction. You should stick with high capacity 9mms and up your training so you can confidently make the hits. There are no shortcuts and no easy way. Training.
I dont know about other states but armor piercing pistol ammunition is a felony in Texas.
The recent events in Colorado have me rethinking my CCW caliber (9mm), and possibly considering switching to a round capable of solid terminal ballistics while also defeating soft armor.
Recent events in CO confirmed for me rule #1: HAVE A GUN. An entire theater full of people in a fairly gun friendly state, and (apparently) not one single person in that audience armed. One can debate ballistics all day, and it means not a damn thing if you are not armed when "it" happens. Now, it may have made no difference at all had at least one person their been armed and attempted to return fire, or it may have made all the difference (even people in body armor dont tend to stay still on a two way range), and had 2-3 people been armed and gotten involved well, chances are improved that the number of deaths could have been reduced.
We will never know however. We do know that in past events, armed response is usually a net plus to saving lives.
Me, does not make me rethink caliber, but does confirm that it can happen any place any time, and having a gun (loaded with ammo known to have adequate terminal ballistics in it in caliber I have plenty of practice with) priority #1, combined with good situational awareness to the best of my abilities and assuming no one else will be there to save my ass.
NSR's -- if you have cover, and are a good shot, you can move from head to pelvis to feet, to hands. Good luck in a gunfight.
Hope I never have to test my training, ever.
Recent events in CO confirmed for me rule #1: HAVE A GUN. An entire theater full of people in a fairly gun friendly state, and (apparently) not one single person in that audience armed. One can debate ballistics all day, and it means not a damn thing if you are not armed when "it" happens. Now, it may have made no difference at all had at least one person their been armed and attempted to return fire, or it may have made all the difference (even people in body armor dont tend to stay still on a two way range), and had 2-3 people been armed and gotten involved well, chances are improved that the number of deaths could have been reduced.
I think the theater posted a no-conceal carry policy. And this event re-enforces my policy of not going to any store that doesn't allow conceal carry. It was a hard fight with the wife (babys-r-us) after our newborn. But thankfully amazon had all the stuff we wanted from them and cheaper to boot.
Personally, I believe that caliber choice would have been the least of your worries in the Colorado Movie theatre shooting.
How do you deal with the smoke/tear gas? How do you deal with all the people running around you in a dark place. Given those two conditions how would you properly ID and position yourself to engage the gunman without hitting innocents? All of that while possibly trying to get your family or friends to safety.
It's easy for us to Monday morning Quarterback this situation but with the way it went down I think it would be very difficult to find yourself in a good position to engage the gunman unless you are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time...
Hogsgunwild
07-22-12, 13:52
I think the theater posted a no-conceal carry policy. And this event re-enforces my policy of not going to any store that doesn't allow conceal carry. It was a hard fight with the wife (babys-r-us) after our newborn. But thankfully amazon had all the stuff we wanted from them and cheaper to boot.
All they can do is ask you to leave. That is if they see that you are armed. In my 15 years of concealed carry, no-one has ever let on that they saw a gun on me. Someone may have, but, I will never know about it. I take the government buildings much more seriously regarding no-carry zones due to the repercussions.
It is nice to respect a business' policy but not to the extent that I put myself or my family at risk. I won't be a sheep if I can avoid it.
We have to make our own choices but mine is a big **** YOU to any business that says I am to become a sheep.
Violence of crime is a growing trend, but consider this
let's have a little fact check here before we go full-CNN.
murder rates have been dropping in this country for over 20 years. 13 people being shot does not change that statistic in any meaningful way. Your odds of getting killed in a car accident on the way to the theatre, or slipping in the shower and breaking your neck are much higher than being involved in a shooting like this.
That said, as people who choose to carry guns, i suppose we are caught up in the statistically negligible just as much as the gun control advocates. That said, numerous studies suggest that concealed carry can save lives. Very few suggest that gun control can.
Personally i'll be sticking with my glock and walther 9mm's. I am ditching my j-frame in favor of the PPS. I go to a CCW friendly school, and felt the sight radius and capacity of the revolver lacked for a worst case scenario.
All they can do is ask you to leave.
I think it depends on the state.
Hogsgunwild
07-22-12, 14:27
let's have a little fact check here before we go full-CNN.
murder rates have been dropping in this country for over 20 years. 13 people being shot does not change that statistic in any meaningful way. Your odds of getting killed in a car accident on the way to the theatre, or slipping in the shower and breaking your neck are much higher than being involved in a shooting like this.
I agree with you but carrying a weapon is one of the skills in life that I believe is worthy of a maximal level of proficiency at. That means training to be prepared for anything thrown at you. One of those things that if you are going to do it you should do it right. Not like many of us have the time or money to do as much as we might like to but any training, knowledge, range time, ammo, etc. that you can acquire would pay for itself a million-fold if you ever actually got into a
life or death fight. I did not say "gunfight" because I believe that if you are serious enough about your protection to carry a gun, you should also strive to be in good physical condition and capable of some level of unarmed combat / self-defense.
The weapon and associated skill-set is like having good quality survival equipment in a boat or your emergency checklist onboard when you take-off in an airplane. You hope you never need it (and many never will) but you had better be able to use it proficiently if it is needed.
Look at the young lady / news reporter that was killed in the Colorado theater. I believe the news said that it was only a month ago that she had a bad feeling so she left a Toronto mall three minutes prior to a mass shooting / murder (at least one was murdered anyhow).
The lightening striking twice thing comes to mind.
Hogsgunwild
07-22-12, 14:27
I think it depends on the state.
Very good point.
I have rethought ammo - and training, since hearing about this shooting as well. I come back to the same conclusion I always do when I discuss, or think about caliber choice for a defensive handgun.
Caliber "whatever" might be marginally more effective in a given situation, but I can afford twice as much 9mm. I would rather have twice the practice any day of the week.
Work on failure to stop drills instead of trying to tailor your setup to the most obscure situation.
I have a .40 S&W, .45 ACP and a few 9mm's... I'm simply asking what would provide an adequate bridge-gap between regular carry calibers and those with AP capability
I don't think viewing a growing trend in violent altercations as a fad... and I don't consider it paranoia to look at other possible options to try and be the best prepared for the majority of situations I could imagine I'd encounter
Those chasing fads and giving in to their paranoia can rarely see same from their own vantage point.
I have read conflicting reports on whether he was wearing armor or just a Blackhawk, non-ballistic vest, and as to what he had on his head.
If the requirement was to place a precise shot, at some distance, on a moving target in a darkened theatre, my first choice out of my standard handgun carry options would be a Glock 17 with a RMR.
The bad guy could be wearing plate armor so multiple hits from a rifle caliber is what you will need. I would go with an AR pistol with some green tip and a surefire 100 round mag. While you're out I would do some trench coat shopping so you can conceal it. Or you could live your life in a plate carrier.
Wayne Dobbs
07-22-12, 15:32
I've been around long enough to see the aftermath of lots of evil doer's efforts, both professionally and as an observer via the media from a distance. It's quite predictable for folks to snap to attention in the aftermath of something horrific and start second guessing their hardware, but rarely their software (think mental preparation and tactics). And yet, that's exactly where we win, lose or avoid most deadly confrontations! I guess it's always easier, especially as Americans to go buy the "fix" for whatever ails us.
Here's a suggested course of action: acquire a solidly dependable service caliber pistol of healthy capacity and the holsters, belts, magazines and other support gear, including a ton of training ammo. Next, obtain very solid training in the use of that weapon and then practice realistically on a regular and ongoing basis. Cultivate a proper mindset and keep working on that most critical asset of all of this. Make peace with your God so you can fight without the fear of death. Then live your life at peace with the good guys and totally ready to deal with evil at any time. Then quit worrying about that which is not a real factor in life.
One thing that keeps coming up about these mass shooters: they are cowards and routinely kill themselves, surrender or run away when capably confronted by a private citizen or the police. Note how this current maggot gave no resistance or flight when confronted by the police in the heat of the moment. These guys are not hard guys and they aren't hard to deal with. Educate yourself, prepare yourself and equip yourself and decide that you will step up if the time comes and you'll do fine...and the evildoers won't.
Lots of discussion on this subject both here and on other boards. I think the premise of upgrading from small caliber and low capacity guns is valid. I think switching to something that might be more effective on body armor than 9mm is non-productive. It's a hardware solution to a software problem. Survival mindset, situational awareness and OODA loop are far more important in this context. Where do you sit in the theater? Have you located all the emergency exits when you entered the theater? Do you observe the comings and goings of people, or do you just watch the movie and ignore all other environmental factors? Do you carry a flashlight? Two flashlights? Do you carry a gun that's capable of rapid, accurate fire? Do you carry enough ammo? Have you practiced low percentage shots? From uncomfortable positions? In adverse weather? Low light? Have you competed and/or performed rigorous activity while shooting to induce stress?
All these questions need answers more than whether you should carry some "super-round", on the off chance a sociopath is wearing body armor.
I don't see why doing critical analysis and re-thinking of options, both hardware or software, is bad/paranoid or regarded as chasing a fad, after a scenario like this.
When doing mission analysis in the military, all options are put on the table, in order to get varied and multiple suggestions.
Even if the conclusion in the end is that a high capacity 9mm pistol with good ammo is the best, the thought process isn't neccesserily bad.
Training, tactics and luck would have been the only way this situation could have been stopped. I have MMQBd this incident several times in my head. The first step would have been to ask yourself where you were in proximity of the shooter. If I was at a further than viable distance, I may have attempted to exit with my friends and loved ones and be done with it.
If I was in close proximity and had the element of surprise, I think the only way to stop the guy quickly and without hitting anyone else in the process or getting myself killed, would have been several well placed shots from very close range to the upper back and back of the neck.
There is no way I am going to change my life style to be prepared for an armored assailant. If I can't do it with what I have (which is usually a Glock 26 with a G17 spare mag) retreating with my party is the right choice.
Quick on-line check of Colorado CCW reg's do not seem to prohibit carry in a theater.
I live in NC and CCW is prohibited at "Any assembly where a fee had been charged for admission". That pretty much covers carry in a theater.
Quick on-line check of Colorado CCW reg's do not seem to prohibit carry in a theater.
I live in NC and CCW is prohibited at "Any assembly where a fee had been charged for admission". That pretty much covers carry in a theater.
There has got to be some sort of clarification ruling(s). Why would a law exist in NC that prohibited a property owner from making their own decisions?
You are more likely to be confronted with an assault/robbery than a body armor clad active shooter. Why compromise the ballistic performance for what you are likely to face to accommodate the more unlikely scenario?
No handgun is great at stopping an aggressive human. The response for armor is the same as any other failure response. Bad guys can be shirtless, but if hopped up on drugs you can have the same issue. Hell, even a mass shooter can use cover - then what? Your shots will likely cause him to leave, kill himself, or at least stop shooting others because he has to focus on you now.
Bottom line is you adjust your action based on the threat and his reaction. And armor piercing rounds don't expand. It would be silly to carry mags with different types of ammo and think you can swap them in time to be useful. Move yourself to cover and use it to steady your aim so you can get the hits you need. Train to shoot in unconventional positions and aim small.
packinaglock
07-22-12, 18:32
I've been around long enough to see the aftermath of lots of evil doer's efforts, both professionally and as an observer via the media from a distance. It's quite predictable for folks to snap to attention in the aftermath of something horrific and start second guessing their hardware, but rarely their software (think mental preparation and tactics). And yet, that's exactly where we win, lose or avoid most deadly confrontations! I guess it's always easier, especially as Americans to go buy the "fix" for whatever ails us.
Here's a suggested course of action: acquire a solidly dependable service caliber pistol of healthy capacity and the holsters, belts, magazines and other support gear, including a ton of training ammo. Next, obtain very solid training in the use of that weapon and then practice realistically on a regular and ongoing basis. Cultivate a proper mindset and keep working on that most critical asset of all of this. Make peace with your God so you can fight without the fear of death. Then live your life at peace with the good guys and totally ready to deal with evil at any time. Then quit worrying about that which is not a real factor in life.
One thing that keeps coming up about these mass shooters: they are cowards and routinely kill themselves, surrender or run away when capably confronted by a private citizen or the police. Note how this current maggot gave no resistance or flight when confronted by the police in the heat of the moment. These guys are not hard guys and they aren't hard to deal with. Educate yourself, prepare yourself and equip yourself and decide that you will step up if the time comes and you'll do fine...and the evildoers won't.
IMO, a good post.
IMO, a good post.
That's because Wayne REALLY knows WTF he's talking about.
To the OP; I strongly think if you want to spend money you should buy ammo and quality training.
If you want some hardware then think about something like a Glock 34 with a red dot set-up. Then practice aim small/miss small.
IMO, a good post.
Amen to that.
Your mission is based off of the enemy's most probable course of action. Contingencies are for the enemy's most dangerous course of action. Always planning for the worst case scenario is not only impractical, but impossible too. You have to be able to improvise and problem solve on the spot because you will never have the perfect tool for the mission, every time. That being said, make the most of training both physical and mental. Little tricks like alternating round types may be super helpful, but it still won't stop every situation that could be encountered.
And again, mission drives the gear. My mission isn't necessarily to neutralize any and every threat encountered, though it'd be nice to do that. Instead, I just want to be able to give myself and those around me a better chance, if it comes down to that. 15+1 well aimed 9mm rounds may not stop an armored target, but its a lot more likely to than just screaming. And its all about that happy medium between 100% prepared for everything bad to ever happen and not prepared for anything at all.
declinetostate
07-22-12, 22:14
The theater is private property and is posted. My local theater in Parker Co just posted no weapons stickers on their doors a couple months ago. I haven't been back since. I don't believe our state has a mandatory posting sign and I believe that if found carrying on private property they will just ask you to leave. Worst case is simple trespass. The crappy thing about movie theaters(at least the local ones) is that the entry point is always down in front by the screen. Same for emergency exits. That leaves you high and dry if you aren't within the first couple rows. The stadium seating leaves no cover other than the small bit of seat back that covers your isle. I've run the "what would I have done" situation through my head and it's not pretty. I carry a g33 with a 13rd reload during the summer and a g23 during winter. Neither would have done much but it's fight or flight. Some of us think we'd be hot shots and take the guy on. It's easy to sit here and think wasn't there at least one person close enough to try to tackle the guy. But it's always easy to run through that stuff sitting with a computer on your lap instead of having bullets flying past your face. I can't say how I'd respond in that kind of situation. Although I try to prepare myself the best I can I honestly hope I never have to find out.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-23-12, 00:13
Colroado doesn't have an official door sticker and its probably simple trespassing businesses- there is some debate on that exactly and local forums don't have any actual cases.
My thought is that while he had body armor on, someone could also have concealed armor on, or you might not be able to see it. Anyway you put it the only solution is that you shoot until the threat is neutralized. In that way it doesn't change what I'm going to do. As an aside, I really think the USPSA/IDPA crowd needs to emphasis two things: the time from buzzer to first shot/hit and reactive targets that are just 2A hits and a hope. I'd rather see far less targets on a course of fire and more realistic shoot-to-neutralize on moving/non-stationary targets.
While not perhaps effective against body armor, I really think most active shooters will bug out, shoot themselves or go fetal as soon as they start to take rounds.
I agree with you but carrying a weapon is one of the skills in life that I believe is worthy of a maximal level of proficiency at. That means training to be prepared for anything thrown at you. One of those things that if you are going to do it you should do it right. Not like many of us have the time or money to do as much as we might like to but any training, knowledge, range time, ammo, etc. that you can acquire would pay for itself a million-fold if you ever actually got into a
life or death fight. I did not say "gunfight" because I believe that if you are serious enough about your protection to carry a gun, you should also strive to be in good physical condition and capable of some level of unarmed combat / self-defense.
The weapon and associated skill-set is like having good quality survival equipment in a boat or your emergency checklist onboard when you take-off in an airplane. You hope you never need it (and many never will) but you had better be able to use it proficiently if it is needed.
Look at the young lady / news reporter that was killed in the Colorado theater. I believe the news said that it was only a month ago that she had a bad feeling so she left a Toronto mall three minutes prior to a mass shooting / murder (at least one was murdered anyhow).
The lightening striking twice thing comes to mind.
i absolutely agree. I enjoy pistol shooting in its own right, and I carry because i feel that a person with the skills i have acquired owes it to society to be armed. I'm just trying to put things in perspective. If this sort of thing results in greater proficiency and greater likelihood of you carrying your gun, then i think that's a positive outcome from a negative situation.
Obviously that type of shooting is a worse cas scenario. However, with soft body armor l would think (l'm guessing, never been shot) 5-6 shots to the chest would still possibly take a person out of the fight. You would still have arm, hand, neck, face, leg, feet and groin shots.
l would imagine its hard to use a rifle if you just got shot in the arm a few times and also took a shot in the leg or groin and a few to the chest has to still atleast hurt with only soft armor.
The media makes it sound like since he had on some type of possibly body armor he was invincible and anyone with a ccw couldnt have possibly done anything anyway.
Obviously facing a BG in body armor is a bad deal all around but l think a ccw who maybe manages a shot or two could play a huge factor.
Sorry to derail, l think just stick to what you have and if anything this should be a wakeup call to carry a few extra mags- atleast for me anyway, l know l've left with just the one in the pistol before.
Message Larry Vickers and ask him about current military training to reduce enemies in body armor with a handgun. There is an actual training curriculum for this right now. I'd bet my life he is familiar.
I've been around long enough to see the aftermath of lots of evil doer's efforts, both professionally and as an observer via the media from a distance. It's quite predictable for folks to snap to attention in the aftermath of something horrific and start second guessing their hardware, but rarely their software (think mental preparation and tactics). And yet, that's exactly where we win, lose or avoid most deadly confrontations! I guess it's always easier, especially as Americans to go buy the "fix" for whatever ails us.
Yep. As stated above there is training for dealing with bad guys in armor with a handgun. The one I saw was supposedly CAG's and as far as I know they are still using Glocks in .40. In other words, they're making no attempt to penetrate the armor with "more round". I believe this is an acknowledgement of the fact, especially in a military context where hard plates may be involved, you're not going to get through that armor with any practical handgun. Software issue.
One thing that keeps coming up about these mass shooters: they are cowards and routinely kill themselves, surrender or run away when capably confronted by a private citizen or the police. Note how this current maggot gave no resistance or flight when confronted by the police in the heat of the moment. These guys are not hard guys and they aren't hard to deal with.
Bingo. This guy isn't from 2nd Ranger Batt or DEVGRU and neither are others. If someone had put a few rounds in his soft body armor they could have waltzed up and brained him. More over, someone trained could draw their weapon and have two shots in him before he knew what was happening.
I don't know what the official CAG protocol is, but I can say it has to be some version of "Shoot them in a place that isn't armored, repeat as needed."
As Pat McNamara says, you check your work through your sights. In a gunfight, just like any other physical confrontation, if the technique you have tried is not working, change what you are doing. If you notice the center mass rounds are not putting the threat down, move to another area, one that is harder to armor. Face, groin, legs, whatever is effective.
As so many others have said here, it is not a caliber issue, it is training. Don't worry about what handgun caliber will reliably defeat armor, focus on what you will do with the hangun you choose to carry if you encounter a threat with armor. Train with the understanding that some threats may need to be hit multiple places multiple times before they cease to be a threat. Prepare for that as best you can in training, because if you actually do find yourself in that situation it is going to be hard enough even if you have practiced.
ComradeBoris
07-23-12, 09:48
let's have a little fact check here before we go full-CNN.
murder rates have been dropping in this country for over 20 years. 13 people being shot does not change that statistic in any meaningful way. Your odds of getting killed in a car accident on the way to the theatre, or slipping in the shower and breaking your neck are much higher than being involved in a shooting like this.
That said, as people who choose to carry guns, i suppose we are caught up in the statistically negligible just as much as the gun control advocates. That said, numerous studies suggest that concealed carry can save lives. Very few suggest that gun control can.
Personally i'll be sticking with my glock and walther 9mm's. I am ditching my j-frame in favor of the PPS. I go to a CCW friendly school, and felt the sight radius and capacity of the revolver lacked for a worst case scenario.
Murder isn't the only violent crime, but I understand what you are getting at. Assault and other crimes of the nature, especially in certain areas is more of a problem. The rates can go down in some areas and still go up in other yielding a net reduction in overall numbers. I should have been more articulate when I wrote that. I agree with what you wrote and others have written.
Failure2Stop
07-23-12, 11:40
Going to a less caipable cartridge based off of COM/upper torso hits is the wrong way to go in my opinion.
Given that multiple good hits to the major upper circulatory system can leave a motivated individual with 10 to 15 seconds of unaffected action, my response to a failure of upper torso hits to achieve a stop is not to push more bullets into the upper torso.
Body armor has been around for a long time. We (military, law enforcement, "contractors", shooting involved citizens) have had to deal with armored threats for a while and there are some pretty straight forward ways to solve the problem, regardless of why the upper torso shots failed, or even if they failed.
The first part of the equation is to come to grips with the concept that 1) your target areas are smaller than you think, and 2) don't expect 1, or 2, or 5 shots to solve the problem, be prepared to move to another target area if you do not rapidly achieve your desired end-state.
These events and this discussion don't make me rethink any caliber other than 9mm.
It does make me question whether the 7+1 rounds available from a compact platform like the M&P Shield (and others) is enough capacity.
These events and this discussion don't make me rethink any caliber other than 9mm.
It does make me question whether the 7+1 rounds available from a compact platform like the M&P Shield (and others) is enough capacity.
I questioned that a while ago and sold my Kahr CW9 EDC. Now my smallest, most compact EDC is a G19.
Looking back at it I was an IDIOT because my opinion was "its good enough" instead it should have been "how could it be better" I'll tell you how, by buying a real belt and not 5 Wal-Mart belts, by buying a real holster and not an uncle mikes soft holster with 1 soft plastic belt clip. Live and learn. I am however debating on buying a snub nose or the small Kahr PM9 but only for the times when I cant dress around a gun (weddings, anniversaries, anywhere I have to wear a suit.)Something small on an ankle holster or a pocket holster.
Just when I was starting to ponder the idea about carrying a pocket pistol without a reload because of the heat of summer, something horrible happens and reinforces what I've always known to be the best plan. Stick with my Glock 19 and a reload.
Army Chief
07-23-12, 15:30
Why would a law exist in NC that prohibited a property owner from making their own decisions?
I believe it has been discussed before, but there are definitely state-to-state differences on the legality and/or consequences of carrying in a business or establishment that is otherwise posted "No Firearms." For example, in Kentucky, the owner can escort you from the premises and deny you service, but no crime has been committed. In North Carolina, by statute, posted restrictions actually carry the weight of law, effectively making it a crime to enter armed.
North Carolina CCW law has some other quirks to it that include a total restriction on locations that sell alcohol for consumption on site (whether the licensee is drinking or not), a prohibition on carrying during times of emergency and the aforementioned restriction on any assembly "where admission is charged" to enter. Similar restrictions on things like simple handgun purchases (purchase permit required -- a legacy of old Jim Crow laws) or NFA law (transferable machineguns still prohibited for other than scientific or experimental purposes) have led me to conclude that, with the possible exception of "open carry," North Carolina's firearms laws appear to allow for far more freedoms than they actually do, once you dig into the particulars. The basic provisions for CCW are certainly in place, but with enough pitfalls, snares and technicalities as to cause serious concern for any armed citizen trying to stay in conformity with the law.
AC
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_24&products_id=626
The 9X25 is a high performance cartridge based on the 10mm. It fires a 9mm bullet at rifle velocities! Flat shooting and hard hitting! This load really hits hard and the bullet holds together at these velocities. Great carry load.
Caliber : 9X25 Dillon
Bullet : 80gr. Barnes TACXP Lead Free
Ballistics : 2120fps / 800 ft. lbs. - 6" Lone Wolf bbl
Box of 20rds.
Basing your personal defense on a handloaded special wildcat caliber that you put together with intentions of defeating armor is probably a poor choice.
Buy a standard gun/caliber that you're comfortable with, and train like you're actually going to have to rely on your skills one day to save your life. There is no technological substitute (no perfect gun, caliber, or bullet design) that will save you if you're not mentally ready and armed with a weapon you've mastered.
Hogsgunwild
07-23-12, 20:57
Thinking about the op's original question, listening to the advice from other posters on where to shoot those in full armor as well as googling the topic, it is clear to me that IN A VACUUM, I see a good service round of say a 180gr. in .40 S&W as making an even better "fast ball" (as someone stated) for limbs, pelvis and the head.
With that said, I would STILL rather stick with my 9MM if for no other reason than the fact that I may very likely get wounded if I was stuck fighting someone wearing body armor / with a rifle. What I mean is that if you were in that Colorado theater, as soon as you started shooting back you become the number one target for the bad guy and the odds that you do not get shot are not so good. The capability for accurate one handed manipulations would be that much more important. The mid-sized and compact .40s that I have owned just suck compared to 9MM when shooting one handed, at least for sustaining accurate fire on target.
Mate, sometimes fate is fate...Carry what you can afford to train vigorously and rigorously with, as often and as much as you can afford. Go to classes, and carry what you can no matter what 100% of the time.
There have been what, 2 shootings in the US where the gunman had high level body armor...how many of the 65,000,000 gun owners will ever even clear leather? Let alone on an armored killer.
Sometimes no amount of training, or equipment will get you out of a situation. I'd be willing to bet that only a combat veteran would or LEO would have been the only type of people with enough resolve standoff effectively.
Others would likely have just drawn fire to themselves....which is fine if someone else, especially my wife or daughter live another day, and been killed anyhow.
Take from this situation for what it was, a senseless horrible tragedy...most all of us here are armed, better trained than the other CCW license holders, and would have made the most of this situation with whatever we had.
A ****ing .22 derringer would have been better in this situation than what everyone else had...nothing
Hogsgunwild
07-23-12, 22:25
Mate, sometimes fate is fate...Carry what you can afford to train vigorously and rigorously with, as often and as much as you can afford. Go to classes, and carry what you can no matter what 100% of the time.
There have been what, 2 shootings in the US where the gunman had high level body armor...how many of the 65,000,000 gun owners will ever even clear leather? Let alone on an armored killer.
Sometimes no amount of training, or equipment will get you out of a situation. I'd be willing to bet that only a combat veteran would or LEO would have been the only type of people with enough resolve standoff effectively.
Others would likely have just drawn fire to themselves....which is fine if someone else, especially my wife or daughter live another day, and been killed anyhow.
Take from this situation for what it was, a senseless horrible tragedy...most all of us here are armed, better trained than the other CCW license holders, and would have made the most of this situation with whatever we had.
A ****ing .22 derringer would have been better in this situation than what everyone else had...nothing
You have some good points. This isn't about Monday morning quarterbacking for most of the people in this thread, in my opinion. And it's not about being Walter F'n Mitties, ha, ha. It is about thinking through some very difficult challenges that will most likely never affect any of us.
Self defense is a serious matter, a hobby and a passion for me. I have no unforgiving hobbies / passions. My career is a passion and also very unforgiving and we train for some things that are extremely unlikely as well. I don't take what happened to those in Colorado lightly. I also do not lose sleep over the possibility of me getting stuck fighting assholes in body armor.
If something is a real passion or if you are a professional, you want every box checked off. That is why no incident is too unlikely or insignificant for me to want to discuss. Especially with like minded individuals, like on this forum. With all of the sick ****s (copying Hollywood movies sometimes), cartels, gangs and violent criminals out there, why not pursue every angle? Does it bother anyone?
I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this thread, but has it been confirmed that he actually had body armor on? I thought he was only wearing a blackhawk tactical vest.
Anyways, I'm sure that several +p hollow points slamming into your chest would be at the least nearly incapacitating even if you were wearing anything but the heaviest body armor.
Can any of you police officers shed light on this? I'm sure it's significantly more force than just the bad guy feeling like you poked him in the chest with your finger. I'm assuming some of you know something about body armor.
It hurts pretty bad just getting hit with a fist when you have a vest on, getting shot would be much worse. Even if he had a vest and you put a couple rounds on target most people would be incapacitated. We had a deputy that got hit with 1 115 grain standard 9mm and the bruise looked like someone had hit him with a baseball bat. While someone might be able to try and fight through the pain if you put multiple hits on target I am pretty sure most would at least stop them temporarily.
I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this thread, but has it been confirmed that he actually had body armor on? I thought he was only wearing a blackhawk tactical vest.
Anyways, I'm sure that several +p hollow points slamming into your chest would be at the least nearly incapacitating even if you were wearing anything but the heaviest body armor.
Can any of you police officers shed light on this? I'm sure it's significantly more force than just the bad guy feeling like you poked him in the chest with your finger. I'm assuming some of you know something about body armor.
goodoleboy
07-24-12, 05:40
My suggestion, as has been mentioned earlier would be to hit the attacker as many times as possible in the body armor to take the fight out of him.
The situation in Colorado presented multiple obstacles to armed resistence, IMHO.
first: I am not aware of CCW laws in CO, however, in NC it is illegal to carry into any venue where you have to pay to be admitted, i.e. a movie theatre.
second: even if you were permitted to carry inside a theatre, in the mayhem getting off a clear shot would have been problematic with hundreds of people scrambling for the exit doors and stepping between you and the shooter, or knocking you off balance as they scramble around you in an attempt to save their own lives.
third: even if you were permitted to carry inside a theatre, being in the dark would present difficulty with hitting a target, even with night sights. Of course a light would be perfect for that scenario, but very few of us carry with a light affixed to our weapon.
Bottom line, I think that selecting your kit to defend yourself against a specific threat is the wrong approach because it doesn't fit a wide range of defensive situations. For example, if you carry specificially to defeat body armor, what happens if you have to defend yourself against an attacker who isn't armored in a congested area? Overpenetration is now a problem you have to consider.
I am by no means a terminal ballistics expert, but even when confronting body armor that prevents penetration, the assailant will still feel the strikes, and the strikes carry enough energy to cause internal damage without penetration. You could still fracture his ribs, damage his liver, and rupture his spleen without penetrating his armor. Such injuries can put a man on the ground and lessen his willingness to continue to resist.
There is no technological substitute (no perfect gun, caliber, or bullet design) that will save you if you're not mentally ready and armed with a weapon you've mastered.
You are right. Technology is not substitute, but it can enhance your ability to deal with threat. There are special AP loads in 9x19 that can be used in pistols designed to accept so hot loads. Those are effects on research of situations when LE or mil personnel has to use handguns against opponents wearing body armor or using armored vehicles (mostly experience from fighting organized crime in Russia).
This one is readily available and works quite well. Did not see is skip a beat. Throwing cases 10 yards up and 30 yards away looks impressive.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/yarygin-pya-grach-e.html
This one is not easily available, but it uses even better AP rounds. Reported to be very nice to shoot.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/gsh-1-e.html
But first thing is to have a gun. I was told by experienced Israeli SOF soldier, that nobody can stand fire directed on him. Body armor or not. His advice was to always go for center mass, because even with body armor kinetic energy will make opponent to skip a beat or loose his balance, then goes opportunity to more precise shot placement. Guy is alive, so I think this works.
You guys in US have luxury of (almost) free choice to have a gun, carry it and to not go to "Gun Free Zones". Unfortunately most of people in Europe live in one, huge "Gun Free Zone". And every time SHTF in US or anywhere else, this is reason to make people even more defenseless. Like Utoya wasn't bad enough.
Training and mind set.
If you hit him CM three times, he goes down. You run over and put some in the face. Done.
But, you have to train and have resolve.
Training and mind set.
If you hit him CM three times, he goes down. You run over and put some in the face. Done.
But, you have to train and have resolve.
Pretty sure that would equate to a prison term in most states. Anchor shots do not equate to "stopping the threat."
Beat Trash
07-24-12, 08:18
Pretty sure that would equate to a prison term in most states. Anchor shots do not equate to "stopping the threat."
It's all about articulation. If that's what it took to stop an armored threat that was killing innocent victims, then that's what it took...
Just when I was starting to ponder the idea about carrying a pocket pistol without a reload because of the heat of summer, something horrible happens and reinforces what I've always known to be the best plan. Stick with my Glock 19 and a reload.
This is what I come too - I carry a J-frame with +P and a speed strip when I HAVE to.
What I really need to do is become more diligent about carrying a flashlight.
gatorfan605
07-24-12, 08:24
Training and mind set.
If you hit him CM three times, he goes down. You run over and put YOUR GUN IN HIS face. REAPPLY AS NECESSARY Done.
But, you have to train and have resolve.
I fixed it for you.
Personally, I feel armed carrying my G19 loaded 15+1 w/ Gold dot 124g+p HP's, w/ extra mag on left hip, and Ruger LCP in right front pocket loaded 6+1 w/ Hornady CD.
If 38 rounds to the body/head doesn't take him down he deserves to live another day.
But I do understand your concern with the thought of your opponent wearing soft armor. Its definitely possible, but not too likely if you ask me.
smitty
Citizen_soldier22
07-24-12, 12:46
I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this thread, but has it been confirmed that he actually had body armor on? I thought he was only wearing a blackhawk tactical vest.
Anyways, I'm sure that several +p hollow points slamming into your chest would be at the least nearly incapacitating even if you were wearing anything but the heaviest body armor.
I have also heard that it was only a tactical vest he wore. The media loves to exaggerate things so I wouldn't doubt if they got 'body armor' from some MOLLE vest.
Also, body armor does not make you invincible. It typically will only stop a handful of rounds before losing integrity. All of these will still likely knock someone on their ass and make them rethink their course of action if nothing else.
Me thinks you'd be better served by spending the money you would spend on an FN5.7, ammo for it and a holster to carry it in on training.
Including training in defensive tactics and some form of martial arts like Krav Maga.
When I first heard about this I was under the impression he had a flak jacket. I had assumed most modern handgun rounds would penetrate a flak vest, is that correct?
I found this on Wikipedia and wondered if there were any modern tests busting this: "It was claimed that the M-1951 field jacket could stop a 90 grain 7.62×25mm Tokarev pistol round at the muzzle of the gun."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_jacket
It seems like these are readily available in Army surplus stores, I'm curious how much protection they provide vs say a 9mm Gold Dot 124gr +P.
I'm guessing the Wikipedia claim is way off - any experts out there know?
theblackknight
07-24-12, 14:55
I fixed it for you.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070609220317/uncyclopedia/images/archive/7/7f/20070713190324!Head_On_commercial.jpg
When I first heard about this I was under the impression he had a flak jacket. I had assumed most modern handgun rounds would penetrate a flak vest, is that correct?
I'm guessing the Wikipedia claim is way off - any experts out there know?
I saw video of a demo with the old Vietnam era flak jacket and it did not stop #6 or #8 shot (can't remember) fired at close range. Not sure about the newer ones post Vietnam (for all I know, this is the same vest design in the BDU pattern, we have some and just use them to make PT suck slightly more). I feel pretty confident they will not stop a 9mm at close range and if they did, the round would still transfer enough energy to YOU through the vest to interrupt whatever you're doing.
sierra 223
07-24-12, 16:43
There is just not that much difference between pistol rounds from 9mm to 45 and everything in between.
If the guy had on a quality balistic vest, caliber of pistol would not make a difference.
The only difference I can see would be using the pistol/caliber combo that you shoot best.
If he had a vest, you are going to have to make head shots or arms,legs,groin or hip shots. So once again I want what I shoot the most accurate and faster follow up shots.
For me this is a 9mm, the Colorado shooting would not make me change my carry weapon.
I am by no means a terminal ballistics expert, but even when confronting body armor that prevents penetration, the assailant will still feel the strikes, and the strikes carry enough energy to cause internal damage without penetration. You could still fracture his ribs, damage his liver, and rupture his spleen without penetrating his armor. Such injuries can put a man on the ground and lessen his willingness to continue to resist.
I would not count on people going down automatically when hit in body armor, from a psychological reaction. Physically, it just won't happen.
A couple of vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg
There just isn't enough momentum in the projectile to overcome the inertia of a human body, and a lot of the kinetic energy is spent on making sound, creating heat, deforming the bullet and crushing/stretching ballistic material.
When adding epinephrine and norepinephrine, and other possible ingested/injected drugs as well, shooting someone in the vest isn't a guarantee to knock someone down.
There are several anectodes of people being hit by rifle fire in the plates, and not noticing it until doing post combat checks and inspections on their gear back at their base. Some of the people who were fleeing for their lives at Utøya last year, who got shot during their flight, often did not notice being shot, until they saw or felt blood. They remembered feeling something, but not excruciating pain.
Also, BABT (Behind Armor Blunt Trauma) is not a very common occurence according to DocGKR. It will probably leave a nice bruise and hurt, but that's about it.
I saw video of a demo with the old Vietnam era flak jacket and it did not stop #6 or #8 shot (can't remember) fired at close range. Not sure about the newer ones post Vietnam (for all I know, this is the same vest design in the BDU pattern, we have some and just use them to make PT suck slightly more). I feel pretty confident they will not stop a 9mm at close range and if they did, the round would still transfer enough energy to YOU through the vest to interrupt whatever you're doing.
PASGT stopped nearly every standard handgun round I fired at it within the first few layers of Kevlar, including near muzzle contact and including NATO-spec 9mm. It stopped buck at ranges beyond 10 yards. Slugs and rifle rounds sailed through though (no big surprise there). I didn't have the equipment to thoroughly test backface deformation, but like I said, it stopped handgun projectiles in the first couple layers. I was able to get 12 of the vests in various sizes in what appeared to be new surplus condition from a surplus store that was going out of business for very cheap almost 15 years ago. I documented the whole thing when I did the test circa 2002 and posted it on arfcom, it may still be available if you look for it (though they purged a lot of my posts when I was banned).
I was actually quite surprised by durability of the vests.
I've never tested Vietnam-era ballistic nylon vests as I've never been able to find one cheap enough to justify shooting it up.
None of the service caliber handguns, including .357 Sig, are going to defeat modern soft body armor. There is no need to switch calibers because of this incident. There is a huge need to have the proper mindset and attitude!
PASGT "Flak" vests will stop most common service caliber handguns: Roberts GK and Bullian ME: "Protective Ability of the Standard U.S. Military Personal Armor System for Ground Troops (PASGT) Fragmentation Vest Against Common Small Arms Projectiles". Military Medicine. 158:560-563, August 1993.
Keep in mind that in Colorado, it doesn't matter if signs are posted prohibiting CCW on private property (obviously this is not the same as at restricted government locations) as they hold no basis in CO law. While it may violate some illogical nanny corporate business policy, that is not the same as being ILLEGAL, as in prohibited and punishable by force of LAW. If discovered CCW, the worst that can happen to you is getting charged with trespassing if you don't immediately depart if asked to do so by the mangement/owner. The only way to stop law abiding citizens from carrying in CO is to have basically airport security at every entrance. Of course this would not have stopped this incident since the perpetrator reportedly jammed open a locked exit door.
Wayne Dobbs and F2S have offered some good advice--listen to it!
I went to the range yesterday and confirmed that I could put 5 consecutive rounds on a 3x5 card at 25 yds using my G19--good enough for a headshot if a bad guy was wearing body armor.
Bad guys and psychos do not respect rules, laws, morals, or any other outside regulation. You can't legislate away evil. This is why the individual right to CCW and be able to protect yourself and your loved ones is critically important. Every time I go out to a movie theater, mall, restaurant, school, concert, church, etc... I assume an active shooting may occur and prepare accordingly; if it does not happen that trip, I am pleasantly surprised and enjoy the rest of my day. In addition, I try to avoid crowds, drunks, "partyers", and other potential troublesome situations. The mind is the weapon, a firearm or any other implement is but a tool...
None of the service caliber handguns, including .357 Sig, are going to defeat modern soft body armor. There is no need to switch calibers because of this incident. There is a huge need to have the proper mindset and attitude!
PASGT "Flak" vests will stop most common service caliber handguns: Roberts GK and Bullian ME: "Protective Ability of the Standard U.S. Military Personal Armor System for Ground Troops (PASGT) Fragmentation Vest Against Common Small Arms Projectiles". Military Medicine. 158:560-563, August 1993.
Keep in mind that in Colorado, it doesn't matter if signs are posted prohibiting CCW on private property (obviously this is not the same as at restricted government locations) as they hold no basis in CO law. While it may violate some illogical nanny corporate business policy, that is not the same as being ILLEGAL, as in prohibited and punishable by force of LAW. If discovered CCW, the worst that can happen to you is getting charged with trespassing if you don't immediately depart if asked to do so by the mangement/owner. The only way to stop law abiding citizens from carrying in CO is to have basically airport security at every entrance. Of course this would not have stopped this incident since the perpetrator reportedly jammed open a locked exit door.
Wayne Dobbs and F2S have offered some good advice--listen to it!
I went to the range yesterday and confirmed that I could put 5 consecutive rounds on a 3x5 card at 25 yds using my G19--good enough for a headshot if a bad guy was wearing body armor.
Bad guys and psychos do not respect rules, laws, morals, or any other outside regulation. You can't legislate away evil. This is why the individual right to CCW and be able to protect yourself and your loved ones is critically important. Every time I go out to a movie theater, mall, restaurant, school, concert, church, etc... I assume an active shooting may occur and prepare accordingly; if it does not happen that trip, I am pleasantly surprised and enjoy the rest of my day. In addition, I try to avoid crowds, drunks, "partyers", and other potential troublesome situations. The mind is the weapon, a firearm or any other implement is but a tool...
Slam dunk.
I also presume that even if he was wearing the top of the line IIIa ballistic helmet and face shield, that a couple 9mm rounds to the melon would get his attention.
Am I off base?
Magic_Salad0892
07-25-12, 10:00
Personally, I believe that caliber choice would have been the least of your worries in the Colorado Movie theatre shooting.
How do you deal with the smoke/tear gas? How do you deal with all the people running around you in a dark place.
Target ID, the fact that he may have been wearing CONCEALED body armor, people traffic, and the tear gas are the things I've been really thinking about lately because of this. That and performing an NSR, while looking for cover, while people are running around, running into me, and the gunman is moving.
I've been really looking for a solution for that one.
More low light shooting with target discrimination training is needed.
You are right. Technology is not substitute, but it can enhance your ability to deal with threat. There are special AP loads in 9x19 that can be used in pistols designed to accept so hot loads. Those are effects on research of situations when LE or mil personnel has to use handguns against opponents wearing body armor or using armored vehicles (mostly experience from fighting organized crime in Russia).
Armor-piercing handgun ammunition is illegal in the U.S.
I was told by experienced Israeli SOF soldier, that nobody can stand fire directed on him. Body armor or not. His advice was to always go for center mass, because even with body armor kinetic energy will make opponent to skip a beat or loose his balance, then goes opportunity to more precise shot placement. Guy is alive, so I think this works.
Honestly, I take anything about combat coming from an Israeli source with a grain of salt.
Newton's 3rd law of motion proves this guy's assertion to be false.
I also presume that even if he was wearing the top of the line IIIa ballistic helmet and face shield, that a couple 9mm rounds to the melon would get his attention.
Am I off base?
I would assume that hits in the helmet would be more effective in getting his attention. At least the physics supports it.
Newton's 3rd law of motion proves this guy's assertion to be false.
Indeed, pretty hard to argue otherwise.
See my post above, post 85, for visual support.
I also did some comparison calculations in this thread:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=109167
There is always a way. Find the way.
I was reading this and felt compelled to throw my two cents in which may be worth even less with this economy. Anyways a couple of points I have for this thread to consider.
1. The shooter was wearing Level 3A which will stand up to most commercially availible pistol rounds and quite a few carbine, pdw rounds availible to us. I dont think any of us CCW a pdw.
2. This guy came in and started firing in an area that was a posted no gun zone by the property owner. With that said he was going by the rightful assumption that legal gun owners and CCW permit holders would be following the law and NOT be armed. This ensured he would be safe. Even if you had a handgun of whatever caliber you choose to carry here is some considerations to note.
a. he used CS gas. Hard to operate in with out proper protection as many of us know but not totally impossible in the right conditions.
So if in that situation a CCW holder were carrying even in a no gun zone (property owner posted not federal or state listing in ohio a trespassing charge after being told to and then refusing to leave) and this situation were to occur again even if the permit holder were to fire a few rounds in a relatively safe direction that would tactically take the inititive away from the "bad guy". This would cause him/her to think on thier feet cause you have a new variable he may have to equate such as look for the guy with the gun. Hit him, Hit around him even if you can only hit near or on protected areas of his/her body it is SOMETHING. And Something might be just enough to tilt the scales. Just as they always briefed the new kids out on FTX's while on patrols or doing ambush/counter ambush "If you find yourself in the kill zone get the hell out. If you can't MOVE ANYWHERE even if it is still in the kill zone JUST DO SOMETHING DONT GIVE UP AND CURL UP AND DIE!" This would allow others to get to cover and or get out. Yes there is the possibility of you being confused as a second shooter, yes there is the possibility of causing additional panic but if as a person with the means to possibly save lives at the risk of your own that is something you must choose for yourself. You may not get a good shot but unless they are regularly in firefights or otherwise unaware there will be an effect that could save lives.
With that said I sit in the break your neck sections of theaters where I can have multiple easy directions. My daughters are my top priority but they know where to go and what to do if seperated or in a situation like that. I hope I have taught them well enough. In short stick with your caliber 9mm is fine. Train alot then train more. Keep your situational awareness up at all times, have an escape route planned at all times. And Live life prepared for the worst and praying everyday for the best.
Alaskapopo
07-25-12, 22:57
The recent events in Colorado have me rethinking my CCW caliber (9mm), and possibly considering switching to a round capable of solid terminal ballistics while also defeating soft armor. To my knowledge, there are only 2 widely available handgun calibers (5.7x28, and .357 SIG) capable of defeating soft armor.
Those with experience, whether its Mil, LEO, or other... please chime in with what caliber you think provides a solid combination of performance for both "stopping power" and armor defeating capability.
The asshole in Colorado was wearing body armor, so it has me thinking that in that situation, had I been there and tried to engage him with my CCW, I would have only succeeded in getting myself killed... thus.... my search for a caliber that may have been beneficial in that type of situation.....
Lets try to stay on topic and not muddy the waters by saying 9mm is fine and I just need to train and train and train to the point where I can just engage them with head shots, because that's not a realistic expectation it that type of situation... it'll be body shots... and body shots against an armored target a good time does not make... unless you have the right caliber...
What calibers provide the best possible results in both engaging armored and non-armored targets.... I understand you cannot have one that does both the best... but I would settle for one that does both well...
this would be for a high-cap semi-auto pistol... not a revolver
5.7x28
.357 SIG
10mm?
commercially available 9mm AP rounds?
Training is the key and the 9mm is fine and frankly I am glad as a LEO that AP handgun ammo is restricted.
Pat
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