New guy with ?? on PK Firearms/Sabre Defence

[black_hawk8888]

Hey guys,
I'm working on building my first carbine and I've been doing a lot of reading on these forums to learn about exactly what I want. I recently bought a stripped Stag lower so I'm researching upper assemblies. After using the search function many times, I've determined that I want a 16" midlength gas system. I'm looking for LMT level quality in a midlength. Unfortunately BCM seems to be the consensus pick but will not have any uppers in stock for the foreseeable future. Other than BCM, only Sabre and CMMG really make a midlength system (I'm not considering RRA or Stag for quality reasons). Most people here prefer Sabre over CMMG.

My questions are thus:

1. How close is Sabre to BCM or LMT? I'm talking about barrel accuracy and reliability here - I've read the entire "Chart" thread.
2. If I buy this assembly at PK firearms with the Sabre Barrel and opt for the Sabre receiver upgrade for $475 without the BCG and then order an LMT or BCM BCG from somewhere else, will I have an LMT quality midlength?

http://www.pkfirearms.com/store/get_item.aspx?id=732&action=display

3. Should I be concerned that the gas tube and other small parts in this deal may not have been done at Sabre or is the Sabre stamp on the barrel and receiver enough? Essentially, can I trust PK Firearms?

If this Sabre assembly turns out to be a poor choice, I guess my only other options would be finding Sabre elsewhere, CMMG (not really an option in my mind anymore), or getting Denny to make an upper with his Operator barrel.

I really appreciate the info and knowledge that is available here - thanks in advance for any replies.

[C4IGrant]

Hey guys,
I'm working on building my first carbine and I've been doing a lot of reading on these forums to learn about exactly what I want. I recently bought a stripped Stag lower so I'm researching upper assemblies. After using the search function many times, I've determined that I want a 16" midlength gas system. I'm looking for LMT level quality in a midlength. Unfortunately BCM seems to be the consensus pick but will not have any uppers in stock for the foreseeable future. Other than BCM, only Sabre and CMMG really make a midlength system (I'm not considering RRA or Stag for quality reasons). Most people here prefer Sabre over CMMG.

My questions are thus:

1. How close is Sabre to BCM or LMT? I'm talking about barrel accuracy and reliability here - I've read the entire "Chart" thread.
2. If I buy this assembly at PK firearms with the Sabre Barrel and opt for the Sabre receiver upgrade for $475 without the BCG and then order an LMT or BCM BCG from somewhere else, will I have an LMT quality midlength?

http://www.pkfirearms.com/store/get_item.aspx?id=732&action=display

3. Should I be concerned that the gas tube and other small parts in this deal may not have been done at Sabre or is the Sabre stamp on the barrel and receiver enough? Essentially, can I trust PK Firearms?

If this Sabre assembly turns out to be a poor choice, I guess my only other options would be finding Sabre elsewhere, CMMG (not really an option in my mind anymore), or getting Denny to make an upper with his Operator barrel.

I really appreciate the info and knowledge that is available here - thanks in advance for any replies.

Pass on the CMMG and ONLY buy the SD barrel with the SD upper receiver.

DD has some middy barrels done right now and are on their way to us so there might be another choice for you soon.


C4

[WesleyCE]

black_hawk8888

I have been thinking about doing the exact same thing with the upper assembly from PKFirearms, saber barrel and receiver less BCG.

Grant, are you suggesting buying the upper receiver and barrel separately because PKFirearms isnot up to the task of putting together a quality upper. $475 does seem quite low for a Sabre Defense upper so my spidy sense is kicking up too.

Thanks.

[C4IGrant]

black_hawk8888

I have been thinking about doing the exact same thing with the upper assembly from PKFirearms, saber barrel and receiver less BCG.

Grant, are you suggesting buying the upper receiver and barrel separately because PKFirearms isnot up to the task of putting together a quality upper. $475 does seem quite low for a Sabre Defense upper so my spidy sense is kicking up too.

Thanks.

Well, I have the SD dealer price sheet in front of me. There is NO WAY that you can buy a factory built SD upper for the prices quoted on the PK's firearms. So something isn't quite right.


C4

[black_hawk8888]

Well its $475 without the BCG. Still seems like a pretty crazy deal so I was wondering if anybody else had dealt with PK Firearms - are these legit Sabre barrels and upper receivers?

Thanks for the input Grant. Do you still carry Sabre? I didn't see anything on your site.....

[C4IGrant]

Well its $475 without the BCG. Still seems like a pretty crazy deal so I was wondering if anybody else had dealt with PK Firearms - are these legit Sabre barrels and upper receivers?

Thanks for the input Grant. Do you still carry Sabre? I didn't see anything on your site.....


We have a dealer account with them, but found it NEARLY impossible to get what we wanted out of them (meaning 1/7 twist middy barrels).

Just as an FYI, the barrels alone cost at least $399. ;)



C4

[Pinnacle]

PK Firearms has fast shipping and they answer questions very quickly too, but I'm with Grant on this. It sounds like PK is building these uppers (using Sabre components), not Sabre.

As far as Sabre quality goes, their stuff is very good quality. I own two of their chrome lined middy barrels and couldn't be happier with them.

[black_hawk8888]

and PK Firearms lists the Sabre 1/7 chrome lined middy barrel as $329 on their site....something isn't adding up here.....

I talked to PK on the phone and the guy in the shop said that they buy the barrels and receivers separately and put them together at PK - barrels and receivers are stamped with Sabre. Would assembly at a warehouse with quality Sabre parts be a bad thing? I can't imagine the gas tube, etc can be really messed up but I'm really new to this...

[Pinnacle]

Talon Arms has them cheaper than that right now on sale. Rainier Arms is close to PK's price too. There must be some volume discount or something that we don't know of.

I would trust PK that if they say it is a Sabre barrel than it is. They are somewhat well know in the AR building circles and like all other companies that belong there have too much to lose by making fraudulent claims about their products for sale.

[black_hawk8888]

Thanks for the input and feedback guys - much appreciated :)

[C4IGrant]

Talon Arms has them cheaper than that right now on sale. Rainier Arms is close to PK's price too. There must be some volume discount or something that we don't know of.

I would trust PK that if they say it is a Sabre barrel than it is. They are somewhat well know in the AR building circles and like all other companies that belong there have too much to lose by making fraudulent claims about their products for sale.


Don't know. Maybe SD did a special run of barrels at a discounted price. The price in my price sheet don't line up though.

Most likely these barrels are NOT HPT/MP tested. This would be one way to cut down on the cost.


C4

[UVvis]

Regarding sabre vs BCM, I have one of each on shooting guns.

They shoot about the same, both very consistent, thus far reliable (bcm at about 2500 rounds, Sd at 3500-4000). Granted my sample size is small, but the BCM I have seems to have a slight edge on precision, but not that much to be noticeable.

The Sabre barrels I have are all stamped like crazy, with twist, CMV, lot numbers... Pretty easy to ID.

[matthewdanger]

The price quoted on PK's site is for a Sabre barrel with CMT upper according to the last I spoke to them. They are not assembled by Sabre. I was told that I could have a Sabre upper for an additional charge but it still isn't a factory assembled upper.

[black_hawk8888]

So does "factory assembled" make a difference? I know that Sabre only makes the barrell and upper receiver - the gas tube, handguards, etc are outsourced. So if they are genuine Sabre parts but not assembled by Sabre, will it matter?

[Jay Cunningham]

According to that site a Sabre receiver is $30 extra.

[markm]

While we're on the Sabre topic... do all Sabre uppers have the Sabre name lasered on them? In other words if you buy a sabre upper rec, it should say sabre on it, right?

[Paulinski]

There is some clever wording used to sell those uppers.

My 0.02

[C4IGrant]

So does "factory assembled" make a difference? I know that Sabre only makes the barrell and upper receiver - the gas tube, handguards, etc are outsourced. So if they are genuine Sabre parts but not assembled by Sabre, will it matter?


Well it depends on who is doing the assembling.

Quick story. Was talking to one of the SD guys about something and we got on the subject of dealers buying their barrels and then putting various uppers and BCG together and selling them as "SD uppers." SD gets a warranty call about a problem upper. So they have the guy send in his "SD upper." Come to find out, the upper was not assembled properly and only the poorest quality components were used.

IMHO, I would only buy AR's built by certain dealers.


C4

[C4IGrant]

While we're on the Sabre topic... do all Sabre uppers have the Sabre name lasered on them? In other words if you buy a sabre upper rec, it should say sabre on it, right?

Correct. The reason why that all came about is because of the story I posted. ;)


C4

[C4IGrant]

There is some clever wording used to sell those uppers.

My 0.02

Yes there is. To be honest though, the online descriptions being used now, is much, uhm "accurate" then it used to be.


C4

[WS6]

So does "factory assembled" make a difference? I know that Sabre only makes the barrell and upper receiver - the gas tube, handguards, etc are outsourced. So if they are genuine Sabre parts but not assembled by Sabre, will it matter?


In a way, yes. SDI has EXCELLENT customer service, even if it is hard to get stuff from them sometimes due to their production schedual (I am told I will get my Dec. 28 ordered rifle middle Feb.

However, their customer service is usually same-week. VERY top-notch from what I have heard.

If you do not order from them already built, they obviously would not be obligated to fix some types of assy. problems.

Talon Arms is who I ordered through and the price was very fair as well as Robert being knowledgeable and about the friendliest person I have every purchased from (Talked to the poor guy for almost a month about spec's and whatnots before I bought, +1 for him putting up with me :D )

I have also dealt with PK (mainly bought small things like mags, ect.). They too are very polite and helpful.

[Mac19D]

I've done business with PKF and it has always been outstanding. Brett is fast at responding and meeting the needs. I went to him for a custom build upper and had it within a week.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/macarmy19d/Guns/DSC00484.jpg

[black_hawk8888]

I've done business with PKF and it has always been outstanding. Brett is fast at responding and meeting the needs. I went to him for a custom build upper and had it within a week.




How was the quality of the work on the custom assembly? Everything look good?

[Jay Cunningham]

I've done business with PKF and it has always been outstanding. Brett is fast at responding and meeting the needs. I went to him for a custom build upper and had it within a week.

Round count?

[Mac19D]

1525rds to be exact. Mostly Rem UMC 55fmj. Some PMC...probably less than 150rds.

Why do you ask?

[black_hawk8888]

1525rds to be exact. Mostly Rem UMC 55fmj. Some PMC...probably less than 150rds.

Why do you ask?

I'm sure he asked because round count can indicate reliability of the AR. Everything gone smooth? Fit/finish/assembly quality seems good after 1500 rounds?

[Lonestar.45]

I'm now on my second upper from PK and their service/build quality is outstanding IMHO. Both times I've gone with Bushmaster superlight barreled uppers, one a flat top and the other an A1, one sits on a Stag factory lower and the other a Bushmaster. The flat top has approx. 1,000 rounds through it so far with zero problems with a CMT BCG. The A1 I haven't fired yet, I'm still piecing the lower together as a retro. I picked up a Denny's super duty BCG from Global Tactical for that one. I looked at the Sabre midlengths and almost went with one, and if I wasn't so enamored with the lightweights I would have.
Realize, as others have said, these are not Sabre factory built uppers. However, my own personal experience and those of friends who have bought uppers from them tells me PK builds them well and would make it right if you weren't satisfied. I would buy from them again, but my next one will be a factory LMT M4 upper more than likely. Got to see what everyone is raving about I suppose.

[Lumpy196]

I've done business with PKF and it has always been outstanding. Brett is fast at responding and meeting the needs. I went to him for a custom build upper and had it within a week.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/macarmy19d/Guns/DSC00484.jpg

Dude, you have an Airsoft M900 on your gun?

[Mac19D]

I'm sure he asked because round count can indicate reliability of the AR. Everything gone smooth? Fit/finish/assembly quality seems good after 1500 rounds?

Oh yeah absolutely. I wouldn't have posted a positive reply if it wasn't a solid build from the get go. Yeah if that thing didn't pass the visual inspection upon recieving it it would have gone back to PKF immediately and more so if it had any type of malfunctions within the first 30rds. Yes I am more than just happy with their service and workmanship.

Just to note, I guess I take for granted most know, but you should really inspect, function check, and clean any new rifle. The smallest error in build could result in serious injury. So by all means its okay to take a consensus on anyone's workmanship but doesn't mean you don't take precautions.

[Mac19D]

Dude, you have an Airsoft M900 on your gun?

Yeah!!!! Doesn't that just kill ya! Factually there is nothing about a Rico that specifically brands it as Airsoft. But I did have the same feelings at first as you. Thats only cause I didn't have first hand experience with it. Grassvalley PD and USMC have ordered these and put them into use. Mike over at CSgunworks in Elk Grove can verify this for those who need proof. Now the first versions of these as I understand were somewhat below standards. These ver2 are really really nice. You would have to use it to obtain your own opinion but I really won't justify a 600.00 foregrip/light when I can spend 250.00 and give me the same results. With that being said I do own surefire lights/IRs as well as Pentagon and Streamlight. Non of which have ever failed me either while in combat or the range.

[Robb Jensen]

I've done business with PKF and it has always been outstanding. Brett is fast at responding and meeting the needs. I went to him for a custom build upper and had it within a week.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/DSC00484.jpg


Who assembled your lower? I ask because your mag catch is WAY out of adjustment. The mag catch button should be flush with the threaded portion of the mag catch.

[YukonGlocker]

I researched 16" middys for quite a while. Sabre Defence was my choice.

Factory assembled Sabre rifles have the "cat's head" logo on the lower.
Factory assembled Sabre uppers have "Sabre Defence" engraved in the upper.
As Grant stated, this provides Sabre a way of knowing what they build and what someone else built.
Stripped uppers and lowers shipped to dealers/assemblers don't get those features.

There are big price differences on Sabre products from dealer to dealer.
Check around for prices. I couldn't find many dealers that stocked Sabre.
But many dealers can order Sabre products and receive them quickly.
Sabre machines their uppers, lowers, and barrels in house.
I'm thoroughly impressed with mine.

Here is mine:
16" middy, 1:7 chrome lined

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f292/YukonGlocker/SD.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f292/YukonGlocker/SD2.jpg

[markm]

Factory assembled Sabre uppers have "Sabre Defence" engraved in the upper.


Additionally, a factory Sabre upper will come in a triangular box from Sabre WITH the exact description of the upper configuration on the outside.

[Mac19D]

Who assembled your lower? I ask because your mag catch is WAY out of adjustment. The mag catch button should be flush with the threaded portion of the mag catch.

Unfortunetaly the mag release button is exactly the way its suppose to be. The laws here in Ca don't allow me to run a standard release. That is called a "bullet button" and requires the use of a tool ie bullet tip to release the magazine if I want to run Evil Features ie pistol grip and collapsable stock. It is quit annoying when trying to compete under timed COF.

[RojasTKD]

Unfortunetaly the mag release button is exactly the way its suppose to be. The laws here in Ca don't allow me to run a standard release. That is called a "bullet button" and requires the use of a tool ie bullet tip to release the magazine if I want to run Evil Features ie pistol grip and collapsable stock. It is quit annoying when trying to compete under timed COF.

Sorry you don't live in a free state.

[Mac19D]

Sorry you don't live in a free state.

Yes...me too!

[GaryXD]

I have dealt with PK on several occasions and have always been pleased. I have an upper from them with a Sabre 16" midi 1/7 m4 feed ramp barrel built on a CMT receiver. It is first rate. As yes they told me it had a CMT upper receiver. In no way shape or form did they try to misrepresent that.

They even fixed an LMT upper I had that had a loose barrel. You could actually move the barrel by hand when I got it.

[Shihan]

Well, I have the SD dealer price sheet in front of me. There is NO WAY that you can buy a factory built SD upper for the prices quoted on the PK's firearms. So something isn't quite right.


C4


I can vouch on this also. SOmething isnt right if they are selling for less than what a dealer buys it for.

[Shihan]

Talon Arms has them cheaper than that right now on sale. Rainier Arms is close to PK's price too. There must be some volume discount or something that we don't know of.

I would trust PK that if they say it is a Sabre barrel than it is. They are somewhat well know in the AR building circles and like all other companies that belong there have too much to lose by making fraudulent claims about their products for sale.

I wouldnt trust PK after the sneaky advertising they did awhile back.

[Shihan]

Yeah!!!! Doesn't that just kill ya! Factually there is nothing about a Rico that specifically brands it as Airsoft. But I did have the same feelings at first as you. Thats only cause I didn't have first hand experience with it. Grassvalley PD and USMC have ordered these and put them into use. Mike over at CSgunworks in Elk Grove can verify this for those who need proof. Now the first versions of these as I understand were somewhat below standards. These ver2 are really really nice. You would have to use it to obtain your own opinion but I really won't justify a 600.00 foregrip/light when I can spend 250.00 and give me the same results. With that being said I do own surefire lights/IRs as well as Pentagon and Streamlight. Non of which have ever failed me either while in combat or the range.

The Rico light is wink wink made for real firearms. The owner Rico Tam is a major prick. He wanted me to sell those suckers so I bought a sample off of him which fell apart. When i asked for a replacement he was a jack ass. Neadless to say I didnt sell them.

[Shihan]

Oh yeah absolutely. I wouldn't have posted a positive reply if it wasn't a solid build from the get go. Yeah if that thing didn't pass the visual inspection upon recieving it it would have gone back to PKF immediately and more so if it had any type of malfunctions within the first 30rds. Yes I am more than just happy with their service and workmanship.

Just to note, I guess I take for granted most know, but you should really inspect, function check, and clean any new rifle. The smallest error in build could result in serious injury. So by all means its okay to take a consensus on anyone's workmanship but doesn't mean you don't take precautions.


30 rounds huh!

[Mac19D]

30 rounds huh!

Yep! 30rds equals one full magazine. Well for me they equal 3 since we have a 10rd limit per. I'm sure you have a different opinion so I'll play... How many rounds do you count till you are satisfied there are no major flaws on a brand new custom upper before you feel okay about yours?

[boltcatch]

Well it depends on who is doing the assembling.

Quick story. Was talking to one of the SD guys about something and we got on the subject of dealers buying their barrels and then putting various uppers and BCG together and selling them as "SD uppers." SD gets a warranty call about a problem upper. So they have the guy send in his "SD upper." Come to find out, the upper was not assembled properly and only the poorest quality components were used.

IMHO, I would only buy AR's built by certain dealers.


C4

Well now, that could explain a number if things.

I must say though that in my experience, if you have a problem with a Sabre product, they WILL take care of you, period, end of story.

[12131]

Yep! 30rds equals one full magazine. Well for me they equal 3 since we have a 10rd limit per. I'm sure you have a different opinion so I'll play... How many rounds do you count till you are satisfied there are no major flaws on a brand new custom upper before you feel okay about yours?This is nothing against PK, or your gun, or Sabre. I would say, if you haven't put at least a thousand rounds thru the AR, slow fire and rapid fire, with various ammos, then you really don't know. jmho, of course.

[Mac19D]

This is nothing against PK, or your gun, or Sabre. I would say, if you haven't put at least a thousand rounds thru the AR, slow fire and rapid fire, with various ammos, then you really don't know. jmho, of course.

I am with your opinion. Right out of the box however I just like to take extra percaution and watch for major mechanical error as I believe anything seriously wrong hopefully will happen right away. Finding your rifles tolerances in ammo and cycle rates does take time and can be worth adjustments to achieve ones own level of worthiness.

[krichbaum]

Guys, does anybody know what the story is on the SDI barrels being sold by PK? I just got one, and I'm more than a little concerned after reading some of the comments on here.

Looking at Talon Arms website, it looks like they were selling what they call a 'special run' of the 16" middie barrels for $315 (special price). PK has the barrel for $329, so I figured it must be the same thing. Based on what you guys were saying about the pricing, these barrels must not be the standard SDI stuff. What in the world is going on?

Man, I'm getting quite discouraged trying to get myself a 16" middie that I can count on for HD. After having problems with 'built' uppers, I decided to just put my own upper together with the parts I want. The barrel is proving to be a problem because I already had a different one with an issue, so I got the SDI from PK. Now it sounds like I still don't have what I wanted or thought I was getting. :mad:

[Lonestar.45]

Guys, does anybody know what the story is on the SDI barrels being sold by PK? I just got one, and I'm more than a little concerned after reading some of the comments on here.

Looking at Talon Arms website, it looks like they were selling what they call a 'special run' of the 16" middie barrels for $315 (special price). PK has the barrel for $329, so I figured it must be the same thing. Based on what you guys were saying about the pricing, these barrels must not be the standard SDI stuff. What in the world is going on?

Man, I'm getting quite discouraged trying to get myself a 16" middie that I can count on for HD. After having problems with 'built' uppers, I decided to just put my own upper together with the parts I want. The barrel is proving to be a problem because I already had a different one with an issue, so I got the SDI from PK. Now it sounds like I still don't have what I wanted or thought I was getting. :mad:

You won't know until you shoot it. I would not get discouraged or upset just because of something you read on the errornet, the proof will be in the pudding. PK has been selling these for a long time now, I think if there were major problems you'd hear more about it (and Sabre would stop selling to PK. Why would Sabre continue selling to them to PK if they had a bad rep of putting them together, damaging Sabre's name?) They also sell the M4 and 20" govt profile most of the time too, I don't think they're "special runs" or seconds or something, not when they almost always have them in stock, and I have a hard time believing Sabre would allow it to continue if there were some sort of major issues. Shoot yours and let us know how it does.

[Telperion]

Don't know. Maybe SD did a special run of barrels at a discounted price. The price in my price sheet don't line up though.

Most likely these barrels are NOT HPT/MP tested. This would be one way to cut down on the cost.


C4
I thought SDI only did batch HPT/MP testing. Would they release a batch without any testing?

[K9-Bob]

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M4Carbine.net Forums" <staff@m4carbine.net>
> To: <sales@pkfirearms.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:27 PM
> Subject: Account removed at M4Carbine.net Forums!
>
>
>> Dear PK Firearms,
>>
>> Unfortunately your registration at M4Carbine.net Forums did not meet our
>> membership requirements. Therefore your registration was deleted.
>>
>> Sorry,
>> M4Carbine.net Forums

Here is a cut an paste email I received from Paul. He can't post a reply to defend himself, so I thought I would throw this out to the forum.

Also here is what Paul sent me....

> Bob
>
> I decided that with the second thread bashing me I should defend
> myself, so I registered as a member to respond to the misinformation and
> just received the following e-mail from them. I guess I am not allowed to
> defend myself. It looks like Grant decides who gets in and who don't.
>
> Feel free to post the refusal of the membership to the thread that is
> ongoing.
>
> Also, the guy who first posted ( black hawk8888 ) respond to his first
> thread and tell him if he has not found an upper yet to call me and I will
> build him a NEW Sabre 16" middy on a Sabre Defence receiver with RRA bolt
> group and forged charging handle at no cost to him and he can decide for
> himself if is a quality upper. Again, I pay for it all including shipping.
>
>

Now for all those guys that hide behind the keyboards and that think that Paul is a sneaky or less than honest dealer....take note.

He is offering black hawk 8888 a free Sabre upper and he can decide for himself the kind of company PK Firearms is.

For those that may wonder, I am not now, nor have I ever been employed by PK Firearms.

He is just a guy I met at the gun show many years ago and now value as a friend. If he could post here, he would defend himself.

[DocHolliday01]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4474/newpictures021aw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I bought my 16in Sabre upper from PK. I had a great experience with them, they were very helpfull. I ordered the upper on a Thursday and received it the following Tuesday. The quality is outstanding, and the finish matches my Sabre lower perfectly. I have around 1200 rounds through it including Wolf, UMC, and Federal all with no problems. I dont really shoot for groops but it hits where I aim. i have run 6 mags through as fast as i could and it didnt miss a beat. I wouldnt hesitate for a second to buy from them again.

[12131]

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M4Carbine.net Forums" <staff@m4carbine.net>
> To: <sales@pkfirearms.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:27 PM
> Subject: Account removed at M4Carbine.net Forums!
>
>
>> Dear PK Firearms,
>>
>> Unfortunately your registration at M4Carbine.net Forums did not meet our
>> membership requirements. Therefore your registration was deleted.
>>
>> Sorry,
>> M4Carbine.net Forums

Here is a cut an paste email I received from Paul. He can't post a reply to defend himself, so I thought I would throw this out to the forum.

Also here is what Paul sent me....

> Bob
>
> I decided that with the second thread bashing me I should defend
> myself, so I registered as a member to respond to the misinformation and
> just received the following e-mail from them. I guess I am not allowed to
> defend myself. It looks like Grant decides who gets in and who don't.
>
> Feel free to post the refusal of the membership to the thread that is
> ongoing.
>
> Also, the guy who first posted ( black hawk8888 ) respond to his first
> thread and tell him if he has not found an upper yet to call me and I will
> build him a NEW Sabre 16" middy on a Sabre Defence receiver with RRA bolt
> group and forged charging handle at no cost to him and he can decide for
> himself if is a quality upper. Again, I pay for it all including shipping.
>
>

Now for all those guys that hide behind the keyboards and that think that Paul is a sneaky or less than honest dealer....take note.

He is offering black hawk 8888 a free Sabre upper and he can decide for himself the kind of company PK Firearms is.

For those that may wonder, I am not now, nor have I ever been employed by PK Firearms.

He is just a guy I met at the gun show many years ago and now value as a friend. If he could post here, he would defend himself.
Bravo!
You might think I had something against PK from my post above. But actually, I'm a very happy customer with them. Have bought several uppers and lowers from them. Never a problem.

[boltcatch]

Guys, does anybody know what the story is on the SDI barrels being sold by PK? I just got one, and I'm more than a little concerned after reading some of the comments on here.

Looking at Talon Arms website, it looks like they were selling what they call a 'special run' of the 16" middie barrels for $315 (special price). PK has the barrel for $329, so I figured it must be the same thing. Based on what you guys were saying about the pricing, these barrels must not be the standard SDI stuff. What in the world is going on?


I've seen several of the 16" 1/7 middy barrels from Talon Arms, every one has been a tack driver, and performed as well as you could expect to get out of M-193. Can't speak for the PK barrels. It would not surprise me if PK or Talon is getting some sort of quantity discount. In any case, until BCM barrels are available again, SDI will be my source for this type of barrel.

[C4IGrant]

I thought SDI only did batch HPT/MP testing. Would they release a batch without any testing?

They do batch MP (which means nothing by the way unless you HPT first).


C4

[C4IGrant]

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M4Carbine.net Forums" <staff@m4carbine.net>
> To: <sales@pkfirearms.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:27 PM
> Subject: Account removed at M4Carbine.net Forums!
>
>
>> Dear PK Firearms,
>>
>> Unfortunately your registration at M4Carbine.net Forums did not meet our
>> membership requirements. Therefore your registration was deleted.
>>
>> Sorry,
>> M4Carbine.net Forums

Here is a cut an paste email I received from Paul. He can't post a reply to defend himself, so I thought I would throw this out to the forum.

Also here is what Paul sent me....

> Bob
>
> I decided that with the second thread bashing me I should defend
> myself, so I registered as a member to respond to the misinformation and
> just received the following e-mail from them. I guess I am not allowed to
> defend myself. It looks like Grant decides who gets in and who don't.
>
> Feel free to post the refusal of the membership to the thread that is
> ongoing.
>
> Also, the guy who first posted ( black hawk8888 ) respond to his first
> thread and tell him if he has not found an upper yet to call me and I will
> build him a NEW Sabre 16" middy on a Sabre Defence receiver with RRA bolt
> group and forged charging handle at no cost to him and he can decide for
> himself if is a quality upper. Again, I pay for it all including shipping.
>
>

Now for all those guys that hide behind the keyboards and that think that Paul is a sneaky or less than honest dealer....take note.

He is offering black hawk 8888 a free Sabre upper and he can decide for himself the kind of company PK Firearms is.

For those that may wonder, I am not now, nor have I ever been employed by PK Firearms.

He is just a guy I met at the gun show many years ago and now value as a friend. If he could post here, he would defend himself.



If "Paul of PK" is watching, Grant has NOTHING to do with approving accounts. It is a shame that he would ASSume such things. ;)

His account was most likely refused because it looked like spam or he has another account on here already. Creating two accounts on here is generally looked down upon as people try and do bad things.

It is great that Paul would give someone an upper to play with. I would ask for a better BCG than the RRA though. Putting a RRA BCG into a SD barrel/upper, is kind of like putting general tires on your Ferrari. I find it odd that he just doesn't buy a SD BCG and include it, but what do I know.

And just to clear things up, I don't have any issue with PK. A member asked what was thought of the package deal and if the pricing was accurate. I looked at my dealer price sheet and simply stated that something didn't line up properly with the factory built SD uppers. I was of course correct.


C4

[black_hawk8888]

They do batch MP (which means nothing by the way unless you HPT first).


C4

Does Sabre HPT their barrels now too? The chart says they don't HPT OR MPI test them. If they do neither of those things, I'm stuck with a carbine length LMT or waiting til BCM decides to stock middies....

[Telperion]

Guys, does anybody know what the story is on the SDI barrels being sold by PK? I just got one, and I'm more than a little concerned after reading some of the comments on here.

Looking at Talon Arms website, it looks like they were selling what they call a 'special run' of the 16" middie barrels for $315 (special price). PK has the barrel for $329, so I figured it must be the same thing. Based on what you guys were saying about the pricing, these barrels must not be the standard SDI stuff. What in the world is going on?

Man, I'm getting quite discouraged trying to get myself a 16" middie that I can count on for HD. After having problems with 'built' uppers, I decided to just put my own upper together with the parts I want. The barrel is proving to be a problem because I already had a different one with an issue, so I got the SDI from PK. Now it sounds like I still don't have what I wanted or thought I was getting. :mad:

I think it's unfortunate that Grant said something to the effect that these barrels may not be up to the regular SDI standard without first checking with SDI or Talon. Talon and PK seem to do more business with Sabre than Grant, who doesn't have Sabre in his manufacturers menu, so it's quite possible that they get a different price sheet.

[C4IGrant]

Does Sabre HPT their barrels now too? The chart says they don't HPT OR MPI test them. If they do neither of those things, I'm stuck with a carbine length LMT or waiting til BCM decides to stock middies....


Not to my knowledge. There were supposed to, but don't think they have started. Will talk to them at Shot about it though.


C4

[C4IGrant]

I think it's unfortunate that Grant said something to the effect that these barrels may not be up to the regular SDI standard without first checking with SDI or Talon. Talon and PK seem to do more business with Sabre than Grant, who doesn't have Sabre in his manufacturers menu, so it's quite possible that they get a different price sheet.

Unfortunate? Why would that be? I simply pulled up my dealer price sheet, looked at the middy uppers and then looked at the price. The math didn't line up (which is the same thing another SD dealer posted here as well).

The amount of business one does with SD has nothing to do with anying as SD only has ONE type of account (no distributors).

We have chosen to not stock SD barrels as they appear to be over priced IMHO and are not HPT/MP tested. They also could not fill ANY of our orders for barrels or uppers.

So to answer your question, no there is not two different price sheets. How companies are cutting cost is by buying stripped barrels and then putting them on what we consider ok at best or subpart upper receivers. They then offer a cheap BCG (like RRA) and sell them.

Last year, we stumbled onto this scheme. The reason I use the word scheme, is because not all the companies where CLEARLY stating that the uppers were not built at the SD factory and that not all the components were from SD either. This was brought to the attention of SD and that is when they decided to mark their uppers and were also supposed to mark their BCG (not sure if they have done this). The reason SD did this has already been stated in this thread.
These companies NOW do tell you that the "SD uppers" are not built with SD components or that you can add SD components for more money. What they are most likely still not telling you is that even if you buy a SD barrel with a SD upper, they are NOT assembled at the SD factory.

Before anyone gets butt hurt because they think I am talking about their favorite dealer, I SPECIFICALLY mentioned no names as there were SEVERAL dealers doing this and it is not my place to dime them out.


C4

[Telperion]

I have no favorite dealers and I was referring to your post on the quality of the barrels only:

"Maybe SD did a special run of barrels at a discounted price. The price in my price sheet don't line up though.

Most likely these barrels are NOT HPT/MP tested. This would be one way to cut down on the cost."

That is one possible explanation, but why do you think it is the most likely one?

[C4IGrant]

I have no favorite dealers and I was referring to your post on the quality of the barrels only:

"Maybe SD did a special run of barrels at a discounted price. The price in my price sheet don't line up though.

Most likely these barrels are NOT HPT/MP tested. This would be one way to cut down on the cost."

That is one possible explanation, but why do you think it is the most likely one?


SD has (in the past) dumped barrels and cut the cost. It was simply a thought on as to why the cost was so low. After further review, I don't think that is the case. The dealers are simply using cheaper components and assembling the uppers themselves in order to cut the cost.


C4

[Staff1]

Off topic and discussed to death.