View Full Version : Colt's new contract with the US Marine Corps
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/20/colt-awarded-contract-from-u-s-marine-corps/
I'm not usually an impulse buyer but I'm probably going to get one of these as soon as I can afford it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72301
A few posts below your post. ;)
I'm in no hurry. But it would be nice to have one eventually.
Gary1911A1
07-25-12, 10:13
I get the impression these Colts are in stainless. If I'll likely get one as an example of what Larry Vickers described as the likely the last 1911 adopted by the US Military, but I wish they were in carbon steel.:rolleyes:
Johnny Yuma
08-30-12, 08:37
Doh ! Please delete ...
I am going to wait and see how this works out. Until them I am happy with my '60's Commander.
filthy phil
08-30-12, 16:51
I am going to wait and see how this works out. Until them I am happy with my '60's Commander.
might be a good idea
http://www.guns.com/marines-colt-rail-gun-failures-damage-cracked-frames-slides-spring-plugs-10420.html
The Marines recently awarded Colt with a contract to supply new 1911s for use with the Marine Corps Special Operations Command (MARSOC) units, and it is apparent that of the handguns tested, a majority of them incurred critical damage to their frames and slides as well as other parts.
Colt sent the Marines 15 modified Rail Gun 1911s for evaluation early this year. Test pistols numbers 11, 12, 14 and 15 all showed "safety-critical" cracks and one failed completely. Samples 1-10 were not tested. The guns fired just 12,000 rounds (it is not clear whether they fired 12,000 rounds each or all together—either way this looks very bad). Despite these failures, the Marines selected Colt to manufacture future M-45s for service use.
I get the impression these Colts are in stainless. If I'll likely get one as an example of what Larry Vickers described as the likely the last 1911 adopted by the US Military, but I wish they were in carbon steel.:rolleyes:
I spoke with Brent's assistant from the custom shop and due to contractual restraints you won't be able to buy a civilian version of it.
Dan
ThirdWatcher
08-31-12, 05:24
I wonder why the government doesn't call it a 1911A2. There is less difference between a 1911 and 1911A1 that there is between the A1 and this pistol.
Littlelebowski
08-31-12, 05:29
I spoke with Brent's assistant from the custom shop and due to contractual restraints you won't be able to buy a civilian version of it.
Dan
I don't think that will stop Colt from slapping the same name on a different pistol and selling it, though.
I spoke with Brent's assistant from the custom shop and due to contractual restraints you won't be able to buy a civilian version of it.
Dan
What is the easiest way to make a gun geeks head explode? Tell them they can't have it... and you fell for it.
I don't doubt you spoke with Brent's assistant. I also don't doubt that she made an asinine statement about contractual constraints but I happen to believe its complete BS. It's a ****ing 1911. Is there some super ninja 1911 developments built into this pistol? Brent's assistant should keep her mouth shut unless unless she is paid by Colt to speak publicly on their behalf. I have one last don't doubt... Colt will **** up any opportunity it may have had to make a buck off these pistols through the commercial market. The only thing Colt has proven they are good at is missing the bus or getting on the wrong one.
wetidlerjr
08-31-12, 08:16
...The only thing Colt has proven they are good at is missing the bus or getting on the wrong one.
I think that you are exaggerating in that Colt responds much more quickly to the market than they did just five or six years ago. The installation of CNC machining and the expansion of models available direct and through TALO is readily apparent. Could they do better? Yes but who couldn't? Sometimes "little steps" are better and they are certainly better than none at all.
What is the easiest way to make a gun geeks head explode? Tell them they can't have it... and you fell for it.
I don't doubt you spoke with Brent's assistant. I also don't doubt that she made an asinine statement about contractual constraints but I happen to believe its complete BS. It's a ****ing 1911. Is there some super ninja 1911 developments built into this pistol?
LOL. A little stronger than I would have stated it, but I agree. What could possibly be so revolutionary in a 1911?
Would be nice to buy one as i think LAV is right about this being the end for the 1911 as a military pistol. If not, I guess I'll have to get a TRP or Wilson Combat or C&S Trident etc as I'm probably not speedy enough to own a super secret ninja 1911.
What is the easiest way to make a gun geeks head explode? Tell them they can't have it... and you fell for it.
I don't doubt you spoke with Brent's assistant. I also don't doubt that she made an asinine statement about contractual constraints but I happen to believe its complete BS. It's a ****ing 1911. Is there some super ninja 1911 developments built into this pistol? Brent's assistant should keep her mouth shut unless unless she is paid by Colt to speak publicly on their behalf. I have one last don't doubt... Colt will **** up any opportunity it may have had to make a buck off these pistols through the commercial market. The only thing Colt has proven they are good at is missing the bus or getting on the wrong one.
First off all you don't know me or anything about me. I am not a gear queer and have no use for replicas that will sit in a safe.
I called to speak to Brent reference a gun the custom shop was working on for me and I spoke to Kathleen who answered his phone and at the time he was showing the Marines around . One thing lead to another and she was telling me that she has numerous callers asking about buying exact copies and had to tell them no way. There is nothing saying that they can't take a O1980RG and coat it the same color and put the same. I wasn't asking about buying one myself.
This coming from a damn lawn dart pilot. Shouldn't you be asking where the damn tanker is because that is the first thing out of a lawn dart after they hit the end of the stroke.
Dan
I don't think that will stop Colt from slapping the same name on a different pistol and selling it, though.
My thought exactly.
Dan
I spoke with Brent's assistant from the custom shop and due to contractual restraints you won't be able to buy a civilian version of it.
Dan
Not to be an assclown but based on the testing results I've read I'm not exactly saving pennies to purchase one.
And that's a VERY sad thing.
:(
Interesting thread, both the Colt contract with the Marines and the report of failures on several of the test pistols.
As a 1911 owner and shooter, I have kind of mixed feelings though. It's great to see 1911's still being used for real applications other than as range toys. I could never be against that, and if the Colts pan out for the Marines, great, it's a win-win for everybody. But knowing that there are higher capacity, lighter weight, and easier-to-maintain .45 platforms out there (say the S&W M&P .45, the HK45, etc.), I also have to wonder why the Marines went with a 1911. It would be interesting to hear the decision-making process.
VooDoo6Actual
09-19-12, 11:16
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/a-sneak-peek-at-the-colt-m45-and-scw/
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/img_0265a-copy_zpsfa1fd01f.jpg
Nytcrawler93
09-19-12, 18:20
I have a black one, what are the internal differences between my CRG and this one?
I wish the Army would follow the Marines and get back to 1911s.:cray:
Littlelebowski
09-22-12, 10:13
I wish the Army would follow the Marines and get back to 1911s.:cray:
Riiiight......
MARSOC (marines special ops) are getting 1911's. the mainstream USMC will still be issued the m9. There is no way they will give a single action carried cocked and locked to the rank and file. Not that is at all hard to train to use these well, but the big military just doesn't spend enough time training pistols. They do a relatively good job with rifle- the times I deployed we literally shot hundreds of rounds per trooper from our rifles or carbines. But for pistol it was a 15 round "familiarization" then a 30 target qual course. no one was given sufficient training on the pistol at all. As a result we had a number of ND's with the m9- and this in a pistol that allows you to load and unload with safety on.
Honestly as much as I like 1911's they are simply not a good choice for general issue.
MARSOC (marines special ops) are getting 1911's. the mainstream USMC will still be issued the m9. There is no way they will give a single action carried cocked and locked to the rank and file. Not that is at all hard to train to use these well, but the big military just doesn't spend enough time training pistols. They do a relatively good job with rifle- the times I deployed we literally shot hundreds of rounds per trooper from our rifles or carbines. But for pistol it was a 15 round "familiarization" then a 30 target qual course. no one was given sufficient training on the pistol at all. As a result we had a number of ND's with the m9- and this in a pistol that allows you to load and unload with safety on.
Honestly as much as I like 1911's they are simply not a good choice for general issue.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but how did the mil get by with them from 1911-1985? What changed?
abn45bravo
09-22-12, 13:43
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but how did the mil get by with them from 1911-1985? What changed?
The 1911 is a professional’s pistol and the Army has no formal pistol marksmanship program. The pistol qualification hasn’t been updated from the 1911 to the m9 which gives you an idea of the last time the Army took the pistol seriously. Most regular Army Units regard the pistol as a chow hall gun at best and don't consider the pistol a real weapon.
The 1911 is a professional’s pistol and the Army has no formal pistol marksmanship program. The pistol qualification hasn’t been updated from the 1911 to the m9 which gives you an idea of the last time the Army took the pistol seriously. Most regular Army Units regard the pistol as a chow hall gun at best and don't consider the pistol a real weapon.
Okay but that doesn't really answer my question.
misanthropist
09-22-12, 15:56
I think the answer in there is "they got by fine with the 1911 because they were issuing it...as opposed to using it".
If the army was actually burning 5000 rounds per man-year and required serious proficiency with the pistol during that period...I suspect the shortcomings would have been more apparent.
Littlelebowski
09-22-12, 16:31
I think the answer in there is "they got by fine with the 1911 because they were issuing it...as opposed to using it".
If the army was actually burning 5000 rounds per man-year and required serious proficiency with the pistol during that period...I suspect the shortcomings would have been more apparent.
Precisely. Folks argue like the 1911 won wars, all by its lonesome. Lot of rosy memories related secondhand. You'd think the 1911 turned the tide of WWII. The same folks live in a hazy cloud where the reality of masse issue of 1911s coupled with first enlistment armorers who have a whopping three months of training on ALL of the small weapons never enters their happy little cloud.
I think the answer in there is "they got by fine with the 1911 because they were issuing it...as opposed to using it".
If the army was actually burning 5000 rounds per man-year and required serious proficiency with the pistol during that period...I suspect the shortcomings would have been more apparent.
If all they're doing is issuing it, what makes the M9 any better for that purpose than the 1911?
mkmckinley
09-22-12, 17:11
I wish the Army would follow the Marines and get back to 1911s.:cray:
I ****in don't.
Most regular Army Units regard the pistol as a chow hall gun at best and don't consider the pistol a real weapon.
And the ones that do don't want an 8 shot pistol that weighs 2 lbs. I love my 1911s hbut they're not even in the top 5 list for what I'd put on my kit.
I wish the Army would follow the Marines and get back to 1911s.:cray:
I wish the rest of the Army would follow the example of USASOC and go to the Glock 9mm. Unfortunately (per this article) (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2012-2017-US-Army-Orders-up-to-100000-M9-Pistols-07540/) the Army appears to be sticking with the M9 and just ordered up to 100,000 more.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but how did the mil get by with them from 1911-1985? What changed?
I think the vast majority of troops who used the 1911 during that period were trained to employ the 1911 from Condition Three (and from a flap holster at that). That didn't end when the 1911 was replaced - I know plenty of troops who were trained to carry the M9 in Condition Three. Modern pistol technique has moved on to something more practical.
Littlelebowski
09-22-12, 19:01
If all they're doing is issuing it, what makes the M9 any better for that purpose than the 1911?
ONE source for parts, ONE way to build the pistol, and no hand fitting of parts. Not to mention how much less training the armorers need.
Think about when the 1911 was designed. In an era of cheap, skilled labor. Those days are gone and the firearms industry now produces pistols that need no hand fitting, very little lubrication and preventative maintenance yet still surpass the original 1911. When an HK45 can go 12k rounds without malfunction without cleaning or additional lube and still shoot 2" groups at 25 yards, what's the point of the 1911?
Folks need to think about logistics and training. Support. 19 year old armorers. Weight. Drop in parts.
I wasn't a huge beretta fan, so I was happy to carry the 1911 during my MARSOC time. However, there are lots of better, cheaper, easier to maintain options for a service pistol. The 1911 design was awarded a new contract for the same reasons the M9 was just reordered--it's easier, less painful, and more likely to be approved than a new pistol trial.
abn45bravo
09-22-12, 19:18
And the ones that do don't want an 8 shot pistol that weighs 2 lbs. I love my 1911s hbut they're not even in the top 5 list for what I'd put on my kit.
Capacity isn’t really an issue since NSW just went with the hk45c which has 8 and 10 round magazines same as the 1911. The bigger problem is the 1911 is a maintenance pain in the ass. Most people really only like the 1911 because it is in 45. The 1911 was for a long time the best 45. Option, but now it is time to move on to something better for a 45acp combat pistol.
Littlelebowski
09-22-12, 19:21
I wasn't a huge beretta fan, so I was happy to carry the 1911 during my MARSOC time. However, there are lots of better, cheaper, easier to maintain options for a service pistol. The 1911 design was awarded a new contract for the same reasons the M9 was just reordered--it's easier, less painful, and more likely to be approved than a new pistol trial.
I remember seeing a literal PILE of broken MEU SOC guns at the armory at Las Flores. The company armorer was pulling his hair out over them.
Capacity isn’t really an issue since NSW just went with the hk45c which has 8 and 10 round magazines same as the 1911. The bigger problem is the 1911 is a maintenance pain in the ass. Most people really only like the 1911 because it is in 45. The 1911 was for a long time the best 45. Option, but now it is time to move on to something better for a 45acp combat pistol.
If they don't have a formal qualification program, would it matter much what they carry?
abn45bravo
09-22-12, 22:16
If they don't have a formal qualification program, would it matter much what they carry?
When the 1911 was adopted the Army considered the pistol a serriouse fighting tool that is not the case any more. The m9 is one of the safest pistols ever, you can load it with the safty on and it decocks itself and people still **** that up.
The continuation of the CQBP as a 1911 is perfect case study of the effects of having GS personnel in the procurement pipeline for continuity. The simple fact was the program had been cancel several times since 1999 when the proposal to buy a COTS 1911 to replace the PWS built 1911s.
However the GS personnel were able to out last the uniformed people who make the decisions. So they just wait for the another uniformed person to come along and re-sell it.
In this case, there were 3 competitors, 2 were eliminated based on the belief that the other two were not on a trajectory to meet the 300 round type 1 MRBF requirement. Leaving only 1 to go phase II testing which was ended early because not just high failure rates but catastrophic destruction of half of the test samples. The company than went to a phase III testing, in which they were allowed to make a configuration change mid testing and all the failure before the change were thrown out.
Littlelebowski
09-23-12, 09:20
The continuation of the CQBP as a 1911 is perfect case study of the effects of having GS personnel in the procurement pipeline for continuity. The simple fact was the program had been cancel several times since 1999 when the proposal to buy a COTS 1911 to replace the PWS built 1911s.
However the GS personnel were able to out last the uniformed people who make the decisions. So they just wait for the another uniformed person to come along and re-sell it.
In this case, there were 3 competitors, 2 were eliminated based on the belief that the other two were not on a trajectory to meet the 300 round type 1 MRBF requirement. Leaving only 1 to go phase II testing which was ended early because not just high failure rates but catastrophic destruction of half of the test samples. The company than went to a phase III testing, in which they were allowed to make a configuration change mid testing and all the failure before the change were thrown out.
Sounds like the other two companies have a strong legal case and the company that got the contract got it on a silver platter.
HudsonLion
10-01-12, 20:52
Wow, are some of you guys still whining over this?!?!
Yep, the civilian GS people are to blame to putting more piles of broken 1911s back into the USMC armories!
Your heads would literally explode if you only knew who in the guvment was testing the 1911 vs the HK45C with the 1911 out ahead by a country mile.
Littlelebowski
10-01-12, 21:18
Your heads would literally explode if you only knew who in the guvment was testing the 1911 vs the HK45C with the 1911 out ahead by a country mile.
Ya know, I too thought it was obvious that R0N had no idea what he was talking about..... I suppose you could tell us "who in the guvment" is testing the 1911 versus the HK45 but it's either "need to know" or you would have to kill us if you told us, right? Let me know if there is .gov or .mil email adress I can send you a email to from my .gov address to verify the veracity of your oh so secret claims on public forum.
misanthropist
10-01-12, 23:45
I love the 1911.
But even more than I love the 1911, I would love to hear the criteria for a set of government tests that put ANY 1911 ahead of the HK45.
Maybe if you based it solely on trigger pull on the first shot? That sounds like a rational basis on which a government agency should select pistols to me. Hey, it's a .45...you won't need more than one shot, right?
Anyway, I don't normally (or ever) pray, but in this case I will. I will be praying for two things:
1) the "who" in the .gov is revealed to us
2) it's nut'nfancy
Are you there, god? It's me, misanthropist...
Im going to let the cat out of the bag, "Nutinfancy"ran the trials. And the winner is the new US made GlockCRGHK variant, that only secret people know about.
If you read this message, your on a list :D
Magic_Salad0892
10-02-12, 02:12
Im going to let the cat out of the bag, "Nutinfancy"ran the trials. And the winner is the new US made GlockCRGHK variant, that only secret people know about.
If you read this message, your on a list :D
Flaw in your logic. He doesn't care for 1911s. He would have selected the Kahr CM9 because it's light weight, and they'd all be carrying it in a belly band.
Wow, are some of you guys still whining over this?!?!
Yep, the civilian GS people are to blame to putting more piles of broken 1911s back into the USMC armories!
Your heads would literally explode if you only knew who in the guvment was testing the 1911 vs the HK45C with the 1911 out ahead by a country mile.
So actually telling the truth about what happen is whining?
To be accurate they are not broken, they are new. In a few years, when we cannot afford to replace them, based on the how well they preformed in testing there will be a disproportional high number of broken one.
My days as a grunt are over and done but were I to need one of my several handguns to grab-n-go I'd grab one of my Glocks over my excellent, stellar shooting Springfield TRP.
The reason? Glocks just straight up work. No matter what.
That and they don't break.
They're truly ambidextrous, anyone can shoot them with almost no training, and they hold lots of ammo onboard.
I sure love me a good 1911 though and would never feel under armed with one.
nineteenkilo
10-02-12, 11:54
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but how did the mil get by with them from 1911-1985? What changed?
In my opinion, the recruitment of the lowest common denominator to fill the ranks. There are many better options for today's mil though.
In my opinion, the recruitment of the lowest common denominator to fill the ranks. There many better options for today's mil though.
That's an interesting comment. Are you saying the lowest common denominator got by with the 1911 and today's troops can't or the other way around?
As I said before, if they aren't going to get purposeful training, it really doesn't matter what they get.
nineteenkilo
10-02-12, 12:07
That's an interesting comment. Are you saying the lowest common denominator got by with the 1911 and today's troops can't or the other way around?
As I said before, if they aren't going to get purposeful training, it really doesn't matter what they get.
I was referring to the current batches of recruits that are woefully undertrained, not tested, and then rapidly deployed to meet number quotas. Not that they are inherently inferior to previous soldiers.
Purposeful training cannot be acquired on a two-way range.
Your heads would literally explode if you only knew who in the guvment was testing the 1911 vs the HK45C with the 1911 out ahead by a country mile.
Please, do tell. I'll be waiting for my head to "literally explode" after hearing this super secret info. :rolleyes:
GingerPatches
10-02-12, 13:06
I was referring to the current batches of recruits that are woefully undertrained, not tested, and then rapidly deployed to meet number quotas. Not that they are inherently inferior to previous soldiers.
Purposeful training cannot be acquired on a two-way range.
True. However, in the context of this thread, I believe the platform will be issued to MARSOC guys, and not generally issued across the Corps. The Marines fielding this new 1911 will, I am guessing, receive primary and sidearm training to a greater extent.
I like the new Colt, and I bet they'll sell a metric shit-ton of the "civilian" version. (A production CRG cerakoted?) Hell...I'll buy one. But the HK45 is a no-brainer for a combat .45ACP. I too would like to know the requirements for this new contract.
Lets be honest too...
There's almost no scenario where a pistol is preferable to something like an M4.
When you're humping armor ammo, chow, water, etc. The last thing you need is more gear you may or may not need.
Certain units train and use pistols. Certain billets get issued them and qual with them. The average 03 trigger puller really doesn't need one.
I was referring to the current batches of recruits that are woefully undertrained, not tested, and then rapidly deployed to meet number quotas. Not that they are inherently inferior to previous soldiers.
Purposeful training cannot be acquired on a two-way range.
Thanks for clarifying.
HudsonLion
10-02-12, 13:48
R0N: I'm more than willing to check back in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years from now to see how the M45s are running. There was plenty of information that was released about this test that was truly slanted. At this point in time, I'm looking to see what the first units downrange with the weapons report.
Lebowski: You have a .gov address? Wow, that's awesome :rolleyes:. From reading some of your rants on here, other websites and your blog, I'm going to refrain from having my Uncle Sam provided e-mail address associated with yours. As for your often regurgitated "piles of broken 1911s last time I walked through" comment, I've walked through armories with piles and piles of Sigs, Glocks and HKs that need major attention before returning to the fray.
I'm not trying to play secret squirrel, all I'm trying to illustrate is that other government agenices testing firearms have scored the 1911 ahead of more "modern" platforms. I'm not saying the USMC was right or wrong, I'm just trying to show that they aren't the only ones.
There are plenty of 1911s riding in US military holsters today, downrange. That doesn't make the design a "God", it just makes it one that is always in the running as a choice for a combat sidearm.
In closing, I was at the range within the past few days. There was a two year old G22 and a 1944 Remington Rand being put through their paces next to each other. Guess which one had the malfunction?
Littlelebowski
10-02-12, 13:55
R0N: I'm more than willing to check back in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years from now to see how the M45s are running. There was plenty of information that was released about this test that was truly slanted. At this point in time, I'm looking to see what the first units downrange with the weapons report.
Lebowski: You have a .gov address? Wow, that's awesome :rolleyes:. From reading some of your rants on here, other websites and your blog, I'm going to refrain from having my Uncle Sam provided e-mail address associated with yours. As for your often regurgitated "piles of broken 1911s last time I walked through" comment, I've walked through armories with piles and piles of Sigs, Glocks and HKs that need major attention before returning to the fray.
I'm not trying to play secret squirrel, all I'm trying to illustrate is that other government agenices testing firearms have scored the 1911 ahead of more "modern" platforms. I'm not saying the USMC was right or wrong, I'm just trying to show that they aren't the only ones.
There are plenty of 1911s riding in US military holsters today, downrange. That doesn't make the design a "God", it just makes it one that is always in the running as a choice for a combat sidearm.
In closing, I was at the range within the past few days. There was a two year old G22 and a 1944 Remington Rand being put through their paces next to each other. Guess which one had the malfunction?
Not playing secret squirrel but making mysterious allusions to testing no one else has heard of. Got it. Not to mention the amount of armorer time a pile of broken 1911s requires over say SIGs and HKs.
HudsonLion
10-02-12, 15:00
Lebowski: I guess that .gov e-mail address come with plenty of downtime during the day to checkout one's favorite websites? Thankfully, I'm home early today to carry on a conversation with you.
Just because you didn't hear about testing doesn't mean that it didn't take place or that others haven't been privy to the knowledge. The .net/.com world isn't the be and end all.
Does anyone have a time table on when the first units will take delivery of the new M45s?
Littlelebowski
10-02-12, 15:33
Lebowski: I guess that .gov e-mail address come with plenty of downtime during the day to checkout one's favorite websites? Thankfully, I'm home early today to carry on a conversation with you.
Just because you didn't hear about testing doesn't mean that it didn't take place or that others haven't been privy to the knowledge. The .net/.com world isn't the be and end all.
Does anyone have a time table on when the first units will take delivery of the new M45s?
Yup, got spare time at my fed job and it's awesome to be able to have time to read about you bitching on the internet about folks on the Internet.
It's really funny that you tried to criticize me for being online...... A sursory search of your screen name and "1911" shows you talking about this very subject on at least three different forums, posting several times during the normal work day. Several posts are you asking R0N for more info on the very subject you now claim to have knowledge on.
Pot meet kettle or just you're a hypocrite who forgot about Google search. Either or.
I guess that .gov e-mail address come with plenty of downtime during the day to checkout one's favorite websites?
Might be a few things you'll want to check out, starting here: https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item
Specifically, #6, especially since there's no shortage of folks aboard that have a gov't-sponsored email accounts, have ironclad work ethics, plenty to do.....y'know, kinda like folks who have jobs at NON-gov't entities. :eek:
You're kinda painting with a broad brush, and mistaking it for being clever.
Your contribution, so far, isn't exactly substantive, so take a step back from this thread, go to General Discussion, and read one of the stickied threads entitled The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. Try to take it a bit to heart, and bear both it and the rules (which you agreed to follow, when you registered) in your mind, when you post in threads...other than this one...in the future.
R0N: I'm more than willing to check back in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years from now to see how the M45s are running. There was plenty of information that was released about this test that was truly slanted. At this point in time, I'm looking to see what the first units downrange with the weapons report.
Lebowski: You have a .gov address? Wow, that's awesome :rolleyes:. From reading some of your rants on here, other websites and your blog, I'm going to refrain from having my Uncle Sam provided e-mail address associated with yours. As for your often regurgitated "piles of broken 1911s last time I walked through" comment, I've walked through armories with piles and piles of Sigs, Glocks and HKs that need major attention before returning to the fray.
I'm not trying to play secret squirrel, all I'm trying to illustrate is that other government agenices testing firearms have scored the 1911 ahead of more "modern" platforms. I'm not saying the USMC was right or wrong, I'm just trying to show that they aren't the only ones.
There are plenty of 1911s riding in US military holsters today, downrange. That doesn't make the design a "God", it just makes it one that is always in the running as a choice for a combat sidearm.
In closing, I was at the range within the past few days. There was a two year old G22 and a 1944 Remington Rand being put through their paces next to each other. Guess which one had the malfunction?
You do realize the Marine Corps put out a technical instruction (TI 09795B-OI) just last year to fix cracks in legacy 1911s. Also one of the reason the M45 have last so long was not really what most people like think, that it is an incredibly robust system. But instead that every two-three deployment cycles they were sent to PWS for rebuilding that normally involved replacing most if not all the parts. That was actually one of the big impetuous for a COT system PWS just could not keep up with rebuilds and new builds
This adoption was smart in the fact since it was replacement of an existing system so it didn't require going through the JROC, etc.
Magic_Salad0892
10-03-12, 00:23
Wasn't the HK45 specifically designed for a contract like this, a few years back?
Also, I'm curious as to what models of 1911 were tested.
Wasn't the HK45 specifically designed for a contract like this, a few years back?
Also, I'm curious as to what models of 1911 were tested.
IIRC, the HK45 was suppose to be part of the never happened new pistol trials for the army, as was the M&P 45. And Glock's improvements/changes to the 21, to become the 21sf were also for those never happened trials. This might be what you're thinking of.
LAV and Ken Hackathorn worked on the design of the HK, IIRC, as a replacement for Delta's 1911s. You might be thinking of this as well.
Hunter Rose
10-03-12, 13:42
Wasn't the HK45 specifically designed for a contract like this, a few years back?
Joint Combat Pistol (JCP)
Magic_Salad0892
10-03-12, 22:53
IIRC, the HK45 was suppose to be part of the never happened new pistol trials for the army, as was the M&P 45. And Glock's improvements/changes to the 21, to become the 21sf were also for those never happened trials. This might be what you're thinking of.
LAV and Ken Hackathorn worked on the design of the HK, IIRC, as a replacement for Delta's 1911s. You might be thinking of this as well.
Yeah those all sound right. And IIRC HK originally asked Vickers to spec out a 1911 for them to produce. Yeah... an HK1911. That would be sweet.
Nephrology
10-04-12, 00:54
Yeah those all sound right. And IIRC HK originally asked Vickers to spec out a 1911 for them to produce. Yeah... an HK1911. That would be sweet.
It would cost 12,000 dollars and you'll have to fly to Germany to get spare tuned extractors.
something that may help explain the contract- people all over the net are focusing on the 22.5 mil price tag. I went to the Colt defense web site and it clearly uses words such as "up to" and "may".
in reality the first installment of the contract is for a little over 4 thousand guns. Just enough to probably replace what is broken and keep things going for a few years. sure they may get up to larger amounts later on but this contract means zip for how the majority of forces will utilize a handgun. For every issued 1911 out there there is probably a couple thousand beretta riding holsters all over the world.
dwhitehorne
10-04-12, 14:53
One thing that people don't realize with the HK45 option is the long delay time for replacement parts. My agency runs P2000's and twenty HK45's for SWAT. Last spring I decided to pick up some more P2000 recoil assemblies and tritium sights. That was in May. I got the sights last month and am still waiting on the twenty recoil spring assemblies. With the thousands of HK's in the US inventory, one would think replacement parts wouldn't take months for back orders. At least the Colt's the parts would be available much quicker. David
something that may help explain the contract- people all over the net are focusing on the 22.5 mil price tag. I went to the Colt defense web site and it clearly uses words such as "up to" and "may".
in reality the first installment of the contract is for a little over 4 thousand guns. Just enough to probably replace what is broken and keep things going for a few years. sure they may get up to larger amounts later on but this contract means zip for how the majority of forces will utilize a handgun. For every issued 1911 out there there is probably a couple thousand beretta riding holsters all over the world.
The up to 12000 is a contract vehicle for potential future buys, but there aren't going to be more than a little over 4000 buys for the Marines.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-05-12, 12:54
IIRC the HK 1911 was supposed to have an HK designed (i.e. it actually works) internal extractor, CNC machined from an HK forging with integrated plunger housings, and a lot of other nice innovations. They were looking for something to do with their P7 workers, tooling, etc. HK determined either (a) it was an expensive boondoggle or (b) the 1911 design could never be made reliable enough to stamp an HK symbol on the side. After than they regrouped and decided to scale up the USP Compact into the HK45.
IIRC the HK 1911 was supposed to have an HK designed (i.e. it actually works) internal extractor, CNC machined from an HK forging with integrated plunger housings, and a lot of other nice innovations. They were looking for something to do with their P7 workers, tooling, etc. HK determined either (a) it was an expensive boondoggle or (b) the 1911 design could never be made reliable enough to stamp an HK symbol on the side. After than they regrouped and decided to scale up the USP Compact into the HK45.
Interesting... thanks :)
Caspian makes a 1911 frame (cast, but they last forever) with good options such as integral plunger housing, and also with integral (stronger) mag well and picatinny rail. I don't know who currently makes a slide with really really reliable external extractor (S&W?). But the 1911 has lots of tidbits that make it finicky, and it would be very difficult to make a top grade 1911 that does not require hand fitting of certain parts, and allow true drop in parts without decrease in performance. Plus the small mag capacity, heavy weight, high price, etc., no wonder its time as a mass issued pistol is reaching its end. IMO smart move by HK.
Magic_Salad0892
10-05-12, 23:30
IIRC the HK 1911 was supposed to have an HK designed (i.e. it actually works) internal extractor, CNC machined from an HK forging with integrated plunger housings, and a lot of other nice innovations. They were looking for something to do with their P7 workers, tooling, etc. HK determined either (a) it was an expensive boondoggle or (b) the 1911 design could never be made reliable enough to stamp an HK symbol on the side. After than they regrouped and decided to scale up the USP Compact into the HK45.
That sounds awesome. Thanks for that info, Greg.
exactly my point ron
The also use that figure to determine a average price that is significantly lower than what the Marines are paying for the M45A1s. The reality is we are pay around 2400 dollars per gun.
I don't know who currently makes a slide with really really reliable external extractor (S&W?).
I've not heard anything bad about the S&W external extractor. Completely the opposite in fact. JM2CW
wetidlerjr
10-07-12, 06:06
I've not heard anything bad about the S&W external extractor. Completely the opposite in fact. JM2CW
That is my understanding, too, although I don't favor an external extractor in a 1911 (Colt man). Also, I have never owned an S&W 1911 style pistol so I can't speak from personal experience.
sinlessorrow
10-29-12, 16:41
You do realize the Marine Corps put out a technical instruction (TI 09795B-OI) just last year to fix cracks in legacy 1911s. Also one of the reason the M45 have last so long was not really what most people like think, that it is an incredibly robust system. But instead that every two-three deployment cycles they were sent to PWS for rebuilding that normally involved replacing most if not all the parts. That was actually one of the big impetuous for a COT system PWS just could not keep up with rebuilds and new builds
This adoption was smart in the fact since it was replacement of an existing system so it didn't require going through the JROC, etc.
Any info on how the guns are working now? I saw Augee's post over on TOS and it seems that Colt fixed the frame issues that showed up during testing.
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