Shooter? Orkan and other such "Shooter" experts ?

[Pappabear]

Orkan, so here are my 200 questions on shooter.

Do you manually input: Alt bar pressure humidity etc?
Pressure is absolute: what does this mean? Toggle On or off?

Coriolis, I know what it is. Do you enable ?

I pull my bullet data from library, cause its probably better than me.
For example, my AMAX 208g in 300wm were way off at 1400 yards. But I made 50% hits. What do you do for :
Velocity variation?
Powder temp , we accidentally cooked our ammo one day and wow, it shot amazingly hot.

Atmospheric STD , ICAO OR ASM, EXPLAIN IF YOU CAN ?

Drag model G1 or G7 , which do you use and what's the difference?

ZERO ATMOSHERE: this is now under bullets edit

Enable ?

Pressure is absolute ? Enable or not?

I would be thrilled to make this happen correctly.

Markm bought some new steel , looking forward to dinging that up.
Guys I have zero formal training and am completely self taught. So this shit is all new. I just get out there and shoot and shoot and shoot, Markm's laser beam rounds. But I need more self study.

Your input is much appreciated.

[QuietShootr]

Orkan, so here are my 200 questions on shooter.

Do you manually input: Alt bar pressure humidity etc?
No, it should be able to get it from a weather station. Otherwise you can input it manually if you have accurate local data.

Pressure is absolute: what does this mean? Toggle On or off?
Leave it off for now until you get to where you want to mess with it.

Coriolis, I know what it is. Do you enable ?
Yes.

I pull my bullet data from library, cause its probably better than me.
For example, my AMAX 208g in 300wm were way off at 1400 yards. But I made 50% hits. What do you do for :
Velocity variation?
Powder temp , we accidentally cooked our ammo one day and wow, it shot amazingly hot.

There is a field for velocity ES in the ammo profile. I don't know how big your target was, but at 1400 yards an ES of 30fps would put you completely off a 16" target half the time.

Atmospheric STD , ICAO OR ASM, EXPLAIN IF YOU CAN ?
Different atmosphere models. Standard, International Civil Aviation Organization, and ASM (I believe is actually ISA, but I could be wrong, International Standard something.) Doesn't matter except that you have to ensure that the ballistic coefficient of your bullet was calculated in the same atmospheric model you are using in your active profile - otherwise it'd be like looking for a point on a WGS84 datum map that was determined on an NAD27 map.

Drag model G1 or G7 , which do you use and what's the difference?

G1s are calculated assuming a flat-base bullet - G7s are boattail (oversimplified). The ones labeled (Litz) are obtained by actual radar measurement by Bryan Litz, a ballistician of some note - and they are typically more accurate than the "calculated" BCs. All that being said - I sometimes have more accurate results with a G1 BC, and I'm not entirely certain why yet.


ZERO ATMOSHERE: this is now under bullets edit

Enable ?
Yes.

Pressure is absolute ? Enable or not?
No.

I would be thrilled to make this happen correctly.

Markm bought some new steel , looking forward to dinging that up.
Guys I have zero formal training and am completely self taught. So this shit is all new. I just get out there and shoot and shoot and shoot, Markm's laser beam rounds. But I need more self study.

Your input is much appreciated.

We'll see if they're laser beam rounds:D

[orkan]

I disagree with the majority of what he said.


Orkan, so here are my 200 questions on shooter.

Do you manually input: Alt bar pressure humidity etc?
Yes, absolutely put in in manually from a kestrel. Getting it from download does NOT make it accurate, and what if you can't connect to anything? That's not how I would want to train.

Pressure is absolute: what does this mean? Toggle On or off?
This means you are entering ACTUAL pressure, and not barometric pressure. This is the method I use. It's referred to as "station pressure" which is the actual pressure without elevation correction. Turn it on. Then set your kestrel to give you station pressure instead of barometric.

Coriolis, I know what it is. Do you enable ?
Leave it off. It only matters if you are shooting a couple thousand yards, with a rifle that's capable of MOA or better accuracy at that distance.

I pull my bullet data from library, cause its probably better than me.
For example, my AMAX 208g in 300wm were way off at 1400 yards. But I made 50% hits. What do you do for :
Velocity variation?
Powder temp , we accidentally cooked our ammo one day and wow, it shot amazingly hot.
I haven't had the need to screw with velocity variation. You can use it to calibrate your curve a bit if you had to.

Atmospheric STD , ICAO OR ASM, EXPLAIN IF YOU CAN ?
These are different standards by which the atmosphere is measured. I leave it set to default.

Drag model G1 or G7 , which do you use and what's the difference?
G7. The G7 drag model much more closely represents the bullets we shoot in long range compared to the G1. Results in a more accurate trajectory across a longer distance.

ZERO ATMOSHERE: this is now under bullets edit

Enable ?
Yes, enable it. This is where you put in the conditions (temp, pressure, etc) as they were when you were zeroing your rifle, so the calc has a starting point to reference your plotted trajectory against.

Pressure is absolute ? Enable or not?
Yes enable, as I said above.

I would be thrilled to make this happen correctly.

Markm bought some new steel , looking forward to dinging that up.
Guys I have zero formal training and am completely self taught. So this shit is all new. I just get out there and shoot and shoot and shoot, Markm's laser beam rounds. But I need more self study.

Your input is much appreciated.

Obviously you should listen to me, because my font is blue... and everyone knows blue is right, red is wrong.

[QuietShootr]

Would a guy who is just learning this have a Kestrel? I assumed he would not. If he does, then of course he can enter the local values manually.

As for turning Coriolis off, why would you? Under 1000 it won't matter, so why not just leave it on? And at 1400, it will have an effect, and so will spin drift (Pappabear, if you don't have your twist info in the weapon profile, you need to put it in there. I have 0.3mrad of combined spin drift and Coriolis at 1000 yards. That's 10.8 inches, and since I'm shooting at a 5" X-ring if I didn't dial it in....well, you do the math.)

And the atmosphere standard - if you aren't using the same one your BC was calculated with then you're reading off two different maps.

[orkan]

Would a guy who is just learning this have a Kestrel? I assumed he would not. If he does, then of course he can enter the local values manually. Ok. You can teach him the wrong ways "until he learns."

I'll teach him the way I do it.

I "assume" that he and mark are intelligent guys, (and I assume correctly) and would realize the gravity of my statements and procure a kestrel if they don't already have one. They are intelligent types that I've talked to quite a few times about various subjects over the last couple years.

You advocate downloaded atmospherics, barometric pressure instead of station pressure, then suggest using Coriolis!??!!? :blink:

Thank you. I needed a laugh this morning.

[QuietShootr]

Ok. You can teach him the wrong ways "until he learns."

I'll teach him the way I do it.

I "assume" that he and mark are intelligent guys, (and I assume correctly) and would realize the gravity of my statements and procure a kestrel if they don't already have one. They are intelligent types that I've talked to quite a few times about various subjects over the last couple years.

You advocate downloaded atmospherics, barometric pressure instead of station pressure, then suggest using Coriolis!??!!? :blink:

Thank you. I needed a laugh this morning.

I didn't "advocate" anything, I simply did not assume that a beginner would have any additional equipment at all. But feel free to continue being a dick, since that seems to be where you want to be today.

[CC556]

The data you get out of the program is only as good as the data you put in. If you don't have a Kestrel or some other way of ascertaining the actual environmental data for the area where you are then the data you get out of the program isn't going to be very useful at any decent distance. My recommendation if you don't have a weather station is to buy one. The price of a Kestrel isn't insignificant but it's part of the game, and if you're putting thousands into a rifle and an optic and ammo and targets and all the other gear, you really should invest in a Kestrel.

[taliv]

note that when you get your kestrel, you will also have to set it up to use the correct pressure.

using local stations is better than nothing but you never know where those are or what the conditions are there. the stations are owned by volunteers... anyone who buys one and connects it to the internet. if some knucklehead puts his weather station right over his dryer vent or something... that's just going to cause you frustration.

re: coriolis... doesn't that depend on direction you are facing? wouldn't a statement like
I have 0.3mrad of combined spin drift and Coriolis at 1000 yards. be specific firing point and target, such that if you turned 90* and shot a different target, your coriolis would change? it implies your phone has a compass and is tracking it. i'd be impressed if you faced north and asked shooter for your solution and then faced east and got a different solution.

[orkan]

re: coriolis... doesn't that depend on direction you are facing? I was going to point that out, but I felt it to be of little consequence, as the guy I would be pointing it out to would just come back with some kind of retort.

Let's drive the point home shall we?

Taliv, have you been successful in competitions, or for fun, where the targets are facing toward all points of the compass WITHOUT accounting for Coriolis? I bet you have.

I have been quite successful in those situations without EVER accounting for Coriolis.

Again, it comes down to academic conversations, compared to real world performance.

[taliv]

truth is i cant' recall ever calculating it. i'm 13th in the standings at the moment. (a lot better than I deserve!...see link in my sig) but i haven't seen any stages much past 1100 yards. lots of stages have targets 90*+ apart from each other though.

[orkan]

truth is i cant' recall ever calculating it. Neither have I... and I do just fine.

For me to start worrying about coriolis, I'll need a 375CT and about 2400yds... I'm guessing.

[a0cake]

Do you manually input: Alt bar pressure humidity etc?

Yes. Use data from Kestrel.

Pressure is absolute: what does this mean? Toggle On or off?

On. Use Station Pressure.

Coriolis, I know what it is. Do you enable?

Only time I've ever used it is with the M107 at > 2K. It's not all that important for the vast majority of applications. Use it if you want but it's among the least of your concerns.


I pull my bullet data from library, cause its probably better than me.
For example, my AMAX 208g in 300wm were way off at 1400 yards. But I made 50% hits. What do you do for :
Velocity variation?
Powder temp , we accidentally cooked our ammo one day and wow, it shot amazingly hot.

You can establish a correlation between 1 degree variations in powder temperature and the corollary effect on muzzle velocity. The program can then automatically adjust the muzzle velocity variable based on current powder temperature. This can be useful in some environments for some applications, but I generally don't go this far, especially with the more temperature stable powders. Note that both the MV variation and Powder Temp fields need to be enabled and have correct inputs in order for this to work.

Atmospheric STD , ICAO OR ASM, EXPLAIN IF YOU CAN ?

Berger, Nosler and Lapua = ICAO.
Sierra, Barnes, Hornady and Winchester = ASM

Drag model G1 or G7 , which do you use and what's the difference?

G7 for HPBT. Note that the BC variable will be vastly different for the two models. You can't just use the G1 BC with the G7 model, you need to input the specific G7 BC.

ZERO ATMOSHERE: this is now under bullets edit

Enable ?

Yes. This is important. Make sure you have accurate environmentals for your zero, that way the program can accurately adjust based on future environmental conditions.

Pressure is absolute ? Enable or not?

Yes.



That's what I do. Go team green.

[Pappabear]

Team green, if I use the bullet library , G1 G7 or Litz?

Thanks for all the replys guys. Im sure this has helped many a many.

[a0cake]

Team green, if I use the bullet library , G1 G7 or Litz?

Thanks for all the replys guys. Im sure this has helped many a many.

I've never used the Bullet Library, but I would assume that the program automatically changes the drag model based on which one the library data uses. At least it should. Might want to find out what the BC's are for the various drag models with the rounds you're using to make sure it's matching the BC with the model. If it's giving you G1's for a BT bullet, I suggest getting the G7 data and just inputting it manually.

[orkan]

G7 litz, for sure.

I use a litz G7 for all of my loads. Dead-nuts accurate BC's. Balls-on accurate.

... as accurate-as-you-can-get-without-a-million-dollar-doppler kind of accurate.

I'm not team green, but you'll notice green and blue are saying the same shit, which is different than team red. Team green is an actual sniper. Team blue is a dick apparently, and team red is still wrong. :)

Hey a0cake... this weekend I'm going shooting with a scout from SEAL team 7. Should be fun finally being able to shoot with someone I can learn something from. I'll be switching my brain to "suck" mode and will be trying to siphon off anything useful. I'll be sure to report if there is anything revolutionary revealed. (in PM obviously)

[JDM3377]

G7 litz, for sure.

I use a litz G7 for all of my loads. Dead-nuts accurate BC's. Balls-on accurate.

... as accurate-as-you-can-get-without-a-million-dollar-doppler kind of accurate.

I'm not team green, but you'll notice green and blue are saying the same shit, which is different than team red. Team green is an actual sniper. Team blue is a dick apparently, and team red is still wrong. :)

Hey a0cake... this weekend I'm going shooting with a scout from SEAL team 7. Should be fun finally being able to shoot with someone I can learn something from. I'll be switching my brain to "suck" mode and will be trying to siphon off anything useful. I'll be sure to report if there is anything revolutionary revealed. (in PM obviously)

This is my first post... And the first time I've read any of this Orkan guy's posts...

I love this guy. Flippin' hilarious he is! :lol:

[orkan]

I aim to please JDM. I'm kinda like a vegas hooker in that regard. The experience might give you a rash, but it will be fun at the time.

a0cake, the bullet library has the correct G7 bc's as well as bullet length and such in each bullet profile. If it says litz next to it, it's right. Whether input manually or not, the numbers match up.

[AR15barrels]

Go with the blue and green replies.
You could also go read my write-up here:
http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=37
You will probably have to register on the forurm to read it, but it's worth registering.
We run a much smaller california based precision rifle competition forum without all the noise of the hide...

[taliv]

We run a much smaller california based precision rifle competition forum without all the noise of the hide...

you could also check out tacticalmatches.com for higher signal-to-noise

[a0cake]

Hey a0cake... this weekend I'm going shooting with a scout from SEAL team 7. Should be fun finally being able to shoot with someone I can learn something from. I'll be switching my brain to "suck" mode and will be trying to siphon off anything useful. I'll be sure to report if there is anything revolutionary revealed. (in PM obviously)

Sounds like a good time. It's always fun and educational shooting with dudes from other arenas with different backgrounds. Diversity in training sources and partners is the best way to get over performance plateau's IMO.


The bullet library has the correct G7 bc's as well as bullet length and such in each bullet profile. If it says litz next to it, it's right. Whether input manually or not, the numbers match up.

Good to know.

[orkan]

Diversity in training sources and partners is the best way to get over performance plateau's IMO. I agree 100%!

[Pappabear]

I'm digging this thread. But WTF have I done now. I was getting this app dialed in and now my results are like D1.2 in elevation at 1k. I made all the changes, it was looking good then all of sudden. Now elevation is D.3 to D 1.3.

[orkan]

I really need more details about how you are collecting data, and where you are putting it in shooter.

[Pappabear]

I just started over from scratch on my iPad. Was using iPhone, and now it's dead nuts on.

Gracias amigos. Life is good.

[orkan]

Glad to hear it. :) Match your settings up and you should be good to go.