PDA

View Full Version : Colt socom finish really rough...



|Troy|
07-25-12, 15:36
I just recently purchased a new in box colt 6920 SOCOM. Happy with the weapon but surprised at how rough the finish is on it. The lower receiver is especially dinged, knicked and marked up. It appears the marks are from before the anodizing was done. I don't really care about the marks as it appears just cosmetic, was more just wondering if this was normal for colt these days? I looked at a new colt LE6940 and it also had some of these rough marks and dings. Anyone else seeing this?

Moltke
07-25-12, 15:57
Haven't noticed it on the few I've seen but as long as it runs, you're good, don't worry about it. Enjoy the rifle.

Tzook
07-25-12, 17:18
I checked out one of the Walmart 6920's a week or two ago and it was super clean, I didn't notice a single blemish.

C4IGrant
07-25-12, 17:23
I just recently purchased a new in box colt 6920 SOCOM. Happy with the weapon but surprised at how rough the finish is on it. The lower receiver is especially dinged, knicked and marked up. It appears the marks are from before the anodizing was done. I don't really care about the marks as it appears just cosmetic, was more just wondering if this was normal for colt these days? I looked at a new colt LE6940 and it also had some of these rough marks and dings. Anyone else seeing this?

Normal.



C4


http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Colt/Mil-Spec_Bin.jpg

Split66
07-25-12, 17:42
They batch test the parts for interchangability. Part of thier QC process. Shoot the piss out of her and add a whole bunch of your own dings.

Moltke
07-25-12, 17:43
They batch test the parts for interchangability. Part of thier QC process. Shoot the piss out of her and add a whole bunch of your own dings.

What parts do they batch test exactly?

Suwannee Tim
07-25-12, 17:58
Never mind.

Split66
07-25-12, 18:00
Anything on the gun. I'm pretty sure it's part of the milspec requirement to constantly make sure you can swap any part. That big bin of parts Grant posted is an example. They will pull all kinds of stuff and make sure they fit together and function properly.

Colt’s TDP has been incorporated consist of more than two hundred extremely rigorous standards covering inspection, tolerances, targeting, endurance and interchangeability of parts.

Moltke
07-25-12, 18:04
Please review the chart.

Split66
07-25-12, 18:40
I'm not trying to be snarky here but "the chart" and "the techincal data package for the M4 carbine" are two totally different things. :D Perhaps it was the term "batch testing" that is throwing you guys off LOL. No they take their tested/in spec parts from bins and make sure they work together. The parts are handled alot. When you are ( not so much anymore) the sole supplier of warfighting carbines to the US your shit has to fit together and thats that. It's an understanding that if you are sending the guns in harms way the military does not want 500 Colt lowers that do not fit together with uppers, because things get real busted up in combat. Good thing is these same processes get applied to their civi guns as well......fit and finish is always secondary to function anyway.

texit
07-25-12, 19:01
I plan on buying a Colt 6920 tomorrow. Hopefully I can find one with a good finish (I know I know its a tool, but I want to put on the dings and scratches).

Can we see some pictures of the finish?

|Troy|
07-25-12, 20:19
I plan on buying a Colt 6920 tomorrow. Hopefully I can find one with a good finish (I know I know its a tool, but I want to put on the dings and scratches).

Can we see some pictures of the finish?

Well, I would post a pic but the pic already posted of the parts box is pretty much what I am talking about. It isn't quite as bad as that and I suspect the oil and sheen on that receiver makes it look worse in that pic. I was pretty much picturing in my mind the marks coming from exactly that, only I thought it was probably a bunch of lowers crated together. I could care less about the marks personally, espescially since it isn't totally abnormal, knock on wood..... At least now you'll know to look I guess and not buy if it bothers you- better than seeing it when you get home.....

Thanks for the response guys!

Moltke
07-25-12, 20:22
The parts are built to spec and assembled. Part of the spec is dimensional correctness. There is no need to assemble then disassemble a bunch of guns, then reassemble them randomly to check parts compatibility. If anyone would like to show data contrary to that please feel free but with other developed production processes this is not a common practice. That includes how other military products are made such as planes, tanks, trucks, humvees.

Suwannee Tim
07-25-12, 20:52
I was going to help him look foolish Moltke then I decided he didn't need my help.

C4IGrant
07-25-12, 20:55
The parts are built to spec and assembled. Part of the spec is dimensional correctness. There is no need to assemble then disassemble a bunch of guns, then reassemble them randomly to check parts compatibility. If anyone would like to show data contrary to that please feel free but with other developed production processes this is not a common practice. That includes how other military products are made such as planes, tanks, trucks, humvees.

If I am not mistaken, the Govt requires the test that I posted the pic of.

All parts have a range. It is possible to get a bunch of parts at one extreme of the scale and not fit (even though they are within the range).



C4

Split66
07-25-12, 21:14
If I am not mistaken, the Govt requires the test that I posted the pic of.

All parts have a range. It is possible to get a bunch of parts at one extreme of the scale and not fit (even though they are within the range).



C4

^^^ this ^^^

I'm not foolish at all. Somebody has to double check it.

The parts interchangeability test
is performed in accordance with
MIL-C-70599A(AR). In a nutshell,
youíre taking 10 guns in a lot, for
example, breaking them down to
their individual components,
shaking up the boxes, and
rebuilding the 10 guns with interchanged parts.
Those 10 guns then go back off
to the firing range, where theyíre
function-fired and targeted again
to meet specifications. A government-employed inspector will be
present for this.

sinlessorrow
07-25-12, 22:49
how a military contractor that supplies 4,000+ rifles a month stores receivers for assembly........

http://www.gunsandammo.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/behind-the-scenes-at-colt/11.jpg

Split66
07-25-12, 22:58
There is no need to assemble then disassemble a bunch of guns, then reassemble them randomly to check parts compatibility.


4.7.7.1.1 Carbines. The interchangeability test shall be
performed during inspection lot testing in accordance with TABLE
IV. Carbines shall be tested for interchange of parts by
disassembly and reassembly of parts using parts from a
prearranged system specified below. Interchange of parts shall
be accomplished by dividing the parts of each carbine into 10
groups of nonmating parts as shown below and distributing the
groups into 10 different trays until each tray contains e
complete carbine. Groups of parts from carbine number 1 shall be
taken in order and placed in trays 1 through 10; groups of parts
from carbine number 2 shall be taken in order and placed in trays
2 through 10 to 1; groups of parts from carbine number 3 shall be
taken in order and placed in trays 3 through 10 to 2, etc. The
carbines shall be reassembled using only those parts which are in
the same tray. The reassembled carbines shall be tested for
headspace, firing pin indent, trigger pull, function firing
(including cyclic rate of fire), and accuracy tests specified in
methods of inspection 4.7.1, 4.7.2, 4.7.3, 4.7.5 and 4.7.6
respectively. Disposition of interchangeability carbines shall be as specified in the contract.

highlighter
07-25-12, 23:23
I've never understood why so many people give Colt a pass on this when there are other rifles to be had that are just as good and don't look like crap.

Split66
07-25-12, 23:30
I've never understood why so many people give Colt a pass on this when there are other rifles to be had that are just as good and don't look like crap.

Cause some of us Colt owners really dont give a shit if our rifle is "pretty". :D I wanted a down and dirty fighting weapon.....

3 AE
07-25-12, 23:35
I've never understood why so many people give Colt a pass on this when there are other rifles to be had that are just as good and don't look like crap.

Yes, but how many companies do what was described in the previous post by Split66 with the quantity of carbines produced? A lot of members go with the "function before finish" dogma.

3 AE
07-25-12, 23:37
how a military contractor that supplies 4,000+ rifles a month stores receivers for assembly........

http://www.gunsandammo.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/behind-the-scenes-at-colt/11.jpg

Now that's a pretty picture! :D

sinlessorrow
07-25-12, 23:38
I've never understood why so many people give Colt a pass on this when there are other rifles to be had that are just as good and don't look like crap.

colt is the only rifle with the TDP. that kind of gives them a pass in the Mil-Spec category.

everyusernametaken
07-25-12, 23:59
Not to imply that finish smoothness is relevant to function, but I have a 6920 socom and mine was as perfect a finish as any of the ARs I've seen, for whatever that's worth. I picked it up from the shop less than a month after the date stamped on the barrel (same month, so must have been less than a month). This was in February.

Tzook
07-26-12, 01:33
I was going to help him look foolish Moltke then I decided he didn't need my help.

Ehh.... Looks like you're taking over that role in this thread

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 09:18
I've never understood why so many people give Colt a pass on this when there are other rifles to be had that are just as good and don't look like crap.

Sorry, but I think you are not following WHY Colt's have a rougher finish than most guns.


Other AR manufacturers do not have the same burden that Colt has in regards to standards and such.

With that said, are their other great rifles out there? Yes. Is there still one standard in the industry that ALL OTHER AR's are measured against? That would be Colt.






C4

texit
07-26-12, 09:46
Going to pick my up a LE6920 in a few hours, sure hope I can find one in decent shape.

Moltke
07-26-12, 10:06
If thatís copy/pasted right out of the TDP than I stand corrected, but I'd like to see the document you're pulling that from because testing like that is a waste. That kind of testing could be done to show to people who donít understand manufacturing processes that the finished products are all alike. It is certainly not an industry best practice or even a common practice which is why I was saying that Colt doesnít do it. I would've figured them to have more modern quality assurance standards.

Knowing that your parts are true to spec (even with stacking tolerances) will account for misfits down the line and this should be done during manufacture of individual parts Ė not with the assembly, disassembly and reassembly of a finished product; especially considering that the assembly, disassembly, random reassembly ďtestĒ isnít just testing the dimensional correctness of parts because itís testing the assembly procedures, torque settings, etc. Thanks for posting what you did, Iím always happy to learn.

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 10:33
Going to pick my up a LE6920 in a few hours, sure hope I can find one in decent shape.

All 6920's are in EXCELLENT shape. As I tell my customers, a Colt is like a hammer. Don't buy it for its looks, buy it for is reliability and quality.

If you are an OCD F&F guy, back away from Colt and look at Noveske.


C4

texit
07-26-12, 10:48
All 6920's are in EXCELLENT shape. As I tell my customers, a Colt is like a hammer. Don't buy it for its looks, buy it for is reliability and quality.

If you are an OCD F&F guy, back away from Colt and look at Noveske.


C4

Thanks Grant, is there anything I need to look for during my look over/inspection of the rifle? I know Colt builds quality, but no company is perfect.

VIP3R 237
07-26-12, 10:56
I've never understood why so many people give Colt a pass on this when there are other rifles to be had that are just as good and don't look like crap.

Besides the fact that every single colt rifle that leaves the factory has passed 357 individual qc checks? Or that colt is the standard everyone else is judged upon? Other rifles may seem to be "just as good" and their finish may be cleaner, but when you break it down very few actually are. Generally when an informed customer asks for a colt, they arent looking for a pretty safe queen, they are looking for a hard use tool.

Split66
07-26-12, 11:09
If thatís copy/pasted right out of the TDP than I stand corrected, but I'd like to see the document you're pulling that from because testing like that is a waste. That kind of testing could be done to show to people who donít understand manufacturing processes that the finished products are all alike. It is certainly not an industry best practice or even a common practice which is why I was saying that Colt doesnít do it. I would've figured them to have more modern quality assurance standards.

Knowing that your parts are true to spec (even with stacking tolerances) will account for misfits down the line and this should be done during manufacture of individual parts Ė not with the assembly, disassembly and reassembly of a finished product; especially considering that the assembly, disassembly, random reassembly ďtestĒ isnít just testing the dimensional correctness of parts because itís testing the assembly procedures, torque settings, etc. Thanks for posting what you did, Iím always happy to learn.

I'm not going to link to the external site as I know that is looked down upon on some forums, and I'd rather not give Das Col Klink aka J Santoro or Iraqgunz anymore mod work related heart attacks.

Google MIL-C-70599A(AR), grab a cup of joe and enjoy the read. It's in PDF format.

Perhaps you can inform the US Govt they've been wasteful for all these years and see where that gets ya. They also test replacement parts in the same fashion.

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 11:38
Thanks Grant, is there anything I need to look for during my look over/inspection of the rifle? I know Colt builds quality, but no company is perfect.

Yes, just the simple stuff though (gas key stacked, castle nut is staked, etc). You really won't be able to test much until you are able to shoot it.


C4

Merle
07-26-12, 12:27
I'd take/send it back where it came from. Since when has the military used 6920's?

Moltke
07-26-12, 12:28
I'm not going to link to the external site as I know that is looked down upon on some forums, and I'd rather not give Das Col Klink aka J Santoro or Iraqgunz anymore mod work related heart attacks.

Google MIL-C-70599A(AR), grab a cup of joe and enjoy the read. It's in PDF format.

Perhaps you can inform the US Govt they've been wasteful for all these years and see where that gets ya. They also test replacement parts in the same fashion.

The government is not interested in industry best practices.

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 12:34
I'd take/send it back where it came from. Since when has the military used 6920's?

LOL, most of the components and testing is the same (across the board) no matter if it is an M4A1 or a 6920.


C4

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 12:39
People need to realize that when you are used to having a MASSIVE customer (US GOVT) that pays ZERO attention to F&F, but puts a HUGE premium on quality and reliability that it is hard to change gears to apease the consumer that puts AS MUCH WEIGHT on F&F as they do quality.

Could Colt wrap every part in a towel to keep it from getting banged up as it is transported from station to station or during the QC/testing section? Yes they could. Do they think that it is needed? No.

If that answer doesn't work for you, then don't buy a Colt (simple as that).





C4

sinlessorrow
07-26-12, 13:28
People need to realize that when you are used to having a MASSIVE customer (US GOVT) that pays ZERO attention to F&F, but puts a HUGE premium on quality and reliability that it is hard to change gears to apease the consumer that puts AS MUCH WEIGHT on F&F as they do quality.

Could Colt wrap every part in a towel to keep it from getting banged up as it is transported from station to station or during the QC/testing section? Yes they could. Do they think that it is needed? No.

If that answer doesn't work for you, then don't buy a Colt (simple as that).





C4

Big +1. Quality and reliability is far more important than finish.

Heck my friends dpms is one of the best fit and finish ar's ive ever seen but that doesnt mean its good.

Merle
07-26-12, 13:54
4.7.7.1.1 Carbines. The interchangeability test shall be
performed during inspection lot testing in accordance with TABLE
IV. Carbines shall be tested for interchange of parts by
disassembly and reassembly of parts using parts from a
prearranged system specified below. Interchange of parts shall
be accomplished by dividing the parts of each carbine into 10
groups of nonmating parts as shown below and distributing the
groups into 10 different trays until each tray contains e
complete carbine. Groups of parts from carbine number 1 shall be
taken in order and placed in trays 1 through 10; groups of parts
from carbine number 2 shall be taken in order and placed in trays
2 through 10 to 1; groups of parts from carbine number 3 shall be
taken in order and placed in trays 3 through 10 to 2, etc. The
carbines shall be reassembled using only those parts which are in
the same tray. The reassembled carbines shall be tested for
headspace, firing pin indent, trigger pull, function firing
(including cyclic rate of fire), and accuracy tests specified in
methods of inspection 4.7.1, 4.7.2, 4.7.3, 4.7.5 and 4.7.6
respectively. Disposition of interchangeability carbines shall be as specified in the contract.
Sounds like typical outdated and unneeded government inefficiency to me. I can go down to the local gun store that sells $79.99 Aero Precision lowers and $59.99 Aero Precision lowers and have the dude behind the counter reach into a box and pull out any random lower and upper and not have any fitment problems. Add a quality lpk, barrel and bcg and I guarantee it will efficiently and accurately go bang with every pull of the trigger. I've done it many, many times. Mine will be dingless and cheaper to boot.

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 15:23
Sounds like typical outdated and unneeded government inefficiency to me. I can go down to the local gun store that sells $79.99 Aero Precision lowers and $59.99 Aero Precision lowers and have the dude behind the counter reach into a box and pull out any random lower and upper and not have any fitment problems. Add a quality lpk, barrel and bcg and I guarantee it will efficiently and accurately go bang with every pull of the trigger. I've done it many, many times. Mine will be dingless and cheaper to boot.

Right. Can you say that about hundreds of thousands of Aero Precision uppers and lowers? No you cannot.

Does Aero put out uppers and lowers that won't fit together? Yes they do (just like everyone else does from time to time).


C4

sinlessorrow
07-26-12, 15:52
Sounds like typical outdated and unneeded government inefficiency to me. I can go down to the local gun store that sells $79.99 Aero Precision lowers and $59.99 Aero Precision lowers and have the dude behind the counter reach into a box and pull out any random lower and upper and not have any fitment problems. Add a quality lpk, barrel and bcg and I guarantee it will efficiently and accurately go bang with every pull of the trigger. I've done it many, many times. Mine will be dingless and cheaper to boot.

The difference is one is going to be used as a range toy, the other will be someone best friend, and someone life line.

Deuce
07-26-12, 16:08
Besides the fact that every single colt rifle that leaves the factory has passed 357 individual qc checks? Or that colt is the standard everyone else is judged upon? Other rifles may seem to be "just as good" and their finish may be cleaner, but when you break it down very few actually are. Generally when an informed customer asks for a colt, they arent looking for a pretty safe queen, they are looking for a hard use tool.

Yet even Colt still occasionally let's a lemon slip through QC. I've seen it myself with three carbines from the same shipment while on AD, and we had a member here very recently have to send back a BCG with no staking on his brand new FDE carbine. How would you explain that away if your comment was true?

The best practice is still to look over your AR prior to purchase. That's the only way to be certain it's GTG before walking out the door, regardless of the rollmark.

Merle
07-26-12, 16:15
The difference is one is going to be used as a range toy, the other will be someone best friend, and someone life line.
So if it doesn't say Colt on the side it's a range toy only? In this day and age with all of the modularity of this platform and the quality of manufacturing from today's technology, there is no reason to do all of these tests. I wouldn't buy anthing be it a work truck or a broom on the premise that it's going to get beat up anyways so it doesn't matter if it comes beat up looking out of the box. Colt gets a pass because of their name. No other company would on this forum.

Moltke
07-26-12, 16:38
So if it doesn't say Colt on the side it's a range toy only? In this day and age with all of the modularity of this platform and the quality of manufacturing from today's technology, there is no reason to do all of these tests. I wouldn't buy anthing be it a work truck or a broom on the premise that it's going to get beat up anyways so it doesn't matter if it comes beat up looking out of the box. Colt gets a pass because of their name. No other company would on this forum.

Have you read this forum?

The point is nobody gets a pass. A product is understood and proven to be of a certain level of quality, and until it is disproven they are accepted as such. Colt rifles have proven over time to be of a high level of quality. Same with BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, KAC, etc. Colt is not the only company that knows how to make an AR.

Merle
07-26-12, 16:53
Have you read this forum?

The point is nobody gets a pass. A product is understood and proven to be of a certain level of quality, and until it is disproven they are accepted as such. Colt rifles have proven over time to be of a high level of quality. Same with BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, KAC, etc. Colt is not the only company that knows how to make an AR.

Well the title of the post is about the rough finish of a new Colt 6920 and almost everyone that has posted say that it's fine. That sounds like a pass to me. I would like to hear from some of the other manufacturers you just mentioned if they also perform the same tests that Colt does that put dents and dings in new rifles or do these companies also send out rifles that look abused out of the box? Every KAC rifle i've ever finger-effed at the local gun store have looked perfect.

sinlessorrow
07-26-12, 16:56
Well the title of the post is about the rough finish of a new Colt 6920 and almost everyone that has posted say that it's fine. That sounds like a pass to me. I would like to hear from some of the other manufacturers you just mentioned if they also perform the same tests that Colt does that put dents and dings in new rifles or do these companies also send out rifles that look abused out of the box? Every KAC rifle i've ever finger-effed at the local gun store have looked perfect.

KAC does not supply 4,000 rifles per month to the military and to the civilian side.

I posted a pic on page 1 or 2 of how Colt stacks their receivers and that gives the small dings.

When your a small company with no large .gov contract you can focus more on looking pretty.

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 17:00
So if it doesn't say Colt on the side it's a range toy only? In this day and age with all of the modularity of this platform and the quality of manufacturing from today's technology, there is no reason to do all of these tests. I wouldn't buy anthing be it a work truck or a broom on the premise that it's going to get beat up anyways so it doesn't matter if it comes beat up looking out of the box. Colt gets a pass because of their name. No other company would on this forum.

The Govt would argue against your opinions.

"Beat Up" is an exaggeration. What we are actually talking about is a small ding here and there. Nothing that any normal person (that views their AR as a tool) would get excited about.

No other M16/M4 manufacturer (outside of FN) has to go through the same reqs as Colt does. If BCM (for instance) got a large .Mil contract (like 40,000 guns), I just about guarantee that you would see them with more and more dings (which would be just fine with me).

C4

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 17:02
Well the title of the post is about the rough finish of a new Colt 6920 and almost everyone that has posted say that it's fine. That sounds like a pass to me. I would like to hear from some of the other manufacturers you just mentioned if they also perform the same tests that Colt does that put dents and dings in new rifles or do these companies also send out rifles that look abused out of the box? Every KAC rifle i've ever finger-effed at the local gun store have looked perfect.

No other manufacturer (to my knowledge) goes through the same tests and QC that Colt is required too. Why? Because it is expensive and unless you have the Govt inspecting your work, why would you??


C4

Moltke
07-26-12, 17:11
/sigh...

No company gets a pass here. The point is function over finish, and paintjobs don't matter.

Animal_Mother556
07-26-12, 17:45
Well the title of the post is about the rough finish of a new Colt 6920 and almost everyone that has posted say that it's fine. That sounds like a pass to me. I would like to hear from some of the other manufacturers you just mentioned if they also perform the same tests that Colt does that put dents and dings in new rifles or do these companies also send out rifles that look abused out of the box? Every KAC rifle i've ever finger-effed at the local gun store have looked perfect.

Why do you care about the dings? And that is a serious question...I am not trying to be an a-hole.

Animal_Mother556
07-26-12, 17:49
So if it doesn't say Colt on the side it's a range toy only? In this day and age with all of the modularity of this platform and the quality of manufacturing from today's technology, there is no reason to do all of these tests. I wouldn't buy anthing be it a work truck or a broom on the premise that it's going to get beat up anyways so it doesn't matter if it comes beat up looking out of the box. Colt gets a pass because of their name. No other company would on this forum.

"beat up looking out of the box"

How do you define "beat up"?

I am guessing it will be different than my definition.

highlighter
07-26-12, 18:21
So if it doesn't say Colt on the side it's a range toy only? In this day and age with all of the modularity of this platform and the quality of manufacturing from today's technology, there is no reason to do all of these tests. I wouldn't buy anthing be it a work truck or a broom on the premise that it's going to get beat up anyways so it doesn't matter if it comes beat up looking out of the box. Colt gets a pass because of their name. No other company would on this forum.

I was thinking the same thing. Who here would go out a buy a new truck that had scratches and dings all over it thinking "well it's gonna get binged up anyway". No one. Colts a great rifle, I own one, but I will not buy one that is dinged up brand new. My ass is still a little chapped at them stopping "civilian" sells back in the day.....

Animal_Mother556
07-26-12, 18:27
My truck gets me to work, gets me to the grocery store...basically gets me to where I need to go.

Colt rifles are made to shoot. That's it.

Comparing buying a dinged up truck to a dinged up Colt doesn't make sense to me. They are both tools, yes. But, in a different way...

sinlessorrow
07-26-12, 19:05
My truck gets me to work, gets me to the grocery store...basically gets me to where I need to go.

Colt rifles are made to shoot. That's it.

Comparing buying a dinged up truck to a dinged up Colt doesn't make sense to me. They are both tools, yes. But, in a different way...

One costs $1000, the other costs $30,000.

If i bought a working truck for $1000 it could have all the dings in the world and i would buy it if it worked.

polymorpheous
07-26-12, 19:21
This argument is old hat fellas.

Steve S.
07-26-12, 19:36
I was thinking the same thing. Who here would go out a buy a new truck that had scratches and dings all over it thinking "well it's gonna get binged up anyway". No one. Colts a great rifle, I own one, but I will not buy one that is dinged up brand new. My ass is still a little chapped at them stopping "civilian" sells back in the day.....

I would happily trade some dings on a new vehicle if it meant it was held to a higher level of quality control compared to other vehicles. Dings I can live with. Broken electronics and other "new car problems" are different.

I do not own a Colt carbine. There are no Colt offerings that I plan on purchasing...

BUT...

I think it's GREAT that Colt holds their civilian models to the same standards and testing (redundant, stupid, wasteful, or not) as their mil / LE lines. There are PLENTY of companies that have completely different levels of QC for civilian and military customers. Hell, just today I was filling an order headed to FOB Fenty (Jallallabad, Afghanistan) , and I found myself subconsciously giving it an extra look or two for any imperfections.

It's great when companies give our troops their highest level of QC they can offer. It's BETTER when everyone gets that same utmost level of QC.

My reasons for not owning a Colt AR has absolutely nothing to do with a ding here and there. The M16FOW isn't meant to be a pretty, collectable firearm. It's a tool with looser tolerances, cheap plastic parts, and requires minimal knowledge for assembly / minor repairs. It's just very good at reducing the amount of oxygen consumption in the world.

If you want a pretty, collectable firearm to pass down, take a look at the M1A, Garand, M14, or even a COLT 1911.

Just my buck o' five on the subject. It's worth what you paid for it.

C4IGrant
07-26-12, 20:10
I was thinking the same thing. Who here would go out a buy a new truck that had scratches and dings all over it thinking "well it's gonna get binged up anyway". No one. Colts a great rifle, I own one, but I will not buy one that is dinged up brand new. My ass is still a little chapped at them stopping "civilian" sells back in the day.....

A vehicle is not a tool.

I am guessing though that if you could buy an authentic .Mil vehicle that F&F would not be all that good.




C4

Suwannee Tim
07-26-12, 21:53
My truck gets me to work, gets me to the grocery store...basically gets me to where I need to go......

I'll bet you wouldn't buy a brand new truck that was dinged up without a substantial discount and even then some moaning and groaning. I've bought a lot of machined parts over the years both from in-house and contracted vendors and rejected some because they were dinged up. I don't remember anyone trying to justify dinged up parts, only an apology and a commitment to do better. Our customers expected our machines not only to perform well but to look good, to look like they were built by professionals who took pride in their work. It doesn't take a lot of extra effort to produce parts that look good given that you have gone to the trouble to make them to spec. Indeed it seems almost every other maker except Colt is able to do it. Colt used to do it I'm sure, I have a 30 year old Colt that is perfect, no dings at all. I'm not trying to project some kind of cosmic significance into this, there may be no quality or functional significance to it whatsoever. Nevertheless almost everyone who manufactures something wants it to look good going out the door. I made capacitors for 10 years and more than once production rejected a lot of parts for cosmetic reasons before QA could even weigh in with their opinion. And this on parts that would never be seen by the end user and fully met electrical specs. Again, no cosmic significance here but almost all manufacturers and customers want the product to look good.

Merle
07-26-12, 22:01
I'll bet you wouldn't buy a brand new truck that was dinged up without a substantial discount and even then some moaning and groaning. I've bought a lot of machined parts over the years both from in-house and contracted vendors and rejected some because they were dinged up. Our customers expected our machines not only to perform well but to look good, to look like they were built by professionals who took pride in their work. It doesn't take a lot of extra effort to produce parts that look good given that you have gone to the trouble to make them to spec. Indeed it seems almost every other maker except Colt is able to do it. Colt used to do it I'm sure, I have a 30 year old Colt that is perfect, no dings at all. I'm not trying to project some kind of cosmic significance into this, there may be no quality or functional significance to it whatsoever. Nevertheless almost everyone who manufactures something wants it to look good going out the door. I made capacitors for 10 years and more than once production rejected a lot of parts for cosmetic reasons before QA could even weigh in with their opinion. Again, no cosmic significance here but almost all manufacturers and customers want the product to look good.
Maybe Colt doesn't worry about f&f because they know that people will buy their stuff regardless? I know everyone says that upper and lower slop doesnt affect anything but I know it sure feels like crap when it's rattling back in forth in your hands and the sloppiest guns I had ever felt have all been new colts at the local gun store. I won't count the M16A1-A2 mongrels I fired in the Air Force since they were pretty old and worn out.

highlighter
07-26-12, 22:27
This argument is old hat fellas.

Man, I know it but sometimes I just can't help it!:D

a0cake
07-26-12, 22:52
Colt rifles are not made to be put in safes and admired.


They're made to be laid out and counted. ;)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/layout4.jpg


See all the silver surfaces on those guns? They work just fine.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-udxQnmNKLvA/T4DsnaJlZVI/AAAAAAAANRI/_Hai2E7BsF8/395832_375874072431262_293154100703260_1369425_21655295_n%25255B3%25255D.jpg

3 AE
07-26-12, 23:07
Just for shits and grins. You're the CEO of a major corporation involved in getting a multimillion dollar contract with the US Govt. Part of the specifications in the contract states that you must perform certain random tests with govt. inspectors on sight in order to fulfill that contract. Your top advisors, engineers, salesmen, and the palm reader down the street tell you that the corporation should tell the govt. that the new quality control and manufacturing methods adopted by your corporation precludes these outdated, costly, and wasteful tests from being conducted in the first place.
You think that's a great idea. So you go to the govt. man holding the contract and tell him about your great idea. Mr. Govt. man gives you this sheepish look and says "No problem Mr. CEO. We have Mr. CEO #2 down the street who is willing to do what we want him to do to fulfill this multi million dollar contract that I have here in my hands. Have a nice day."
What should your response be?
1. "Mr. Govt. Man, Screw you. I'm not going to subject my company to these unnecessary, costly, and wasteful tests. The taxpayers and my company deserve better. Stick this contract where the sun doesn't shine."
2. "Dude, where's that dotted line again?

.45fmjoe
07-26-12, 23:13
colt is the only rifle with the TDP. that kind of gives them a pass in the Mil-Spec category.

But you don't understand, it's the finish that matters!! ;)

3 AE
07-26-12, 23:17
[QUOTE=a0cake;1356436]Colt rifles are not made to be put in safes and admired.


They're made to be laid out and counted. ;)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/layout4.jpg


See all the silver surfaces on those guns? They work just fine.

"Eeny, meeny, miney, mo......." I'll take the one on the far right and the one to the lower left of it and a crate of grenades. :D

Split66
07-26-12, 23:36
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/layout4.jpg


See all the silver surfaces on those guns? They work just fine.



yes...yes a0cake FTW, he gets it.



There needs to be a sticky banning all future threads on Colt F&F :D

No one put a gun to your head and made you buy it is all it has to say!

Or quit yer :cray: and shoot your ****ing gun.

MegademiC
07-27-12, 00:38
Maybe Colt doesn't worry about f&f because they know that people will buy their stuff regardless? I know everyone says that upper and lower slop doesnt affect anything but I know it sure feels like crap when it's rattling back in forth in your hands and the sloppiest guns I had ever felt have all been new colts at the local gun store. I won't count the M16A1-A2 mongrels I fired in the Air Force since they were pretty old and worn out.

No, they are not the sloppiest guns you've held. No matter how loose the fit is, as long as it meets the TDP and works as it should. Colts are the most strait-laced... vetted gun you can purchase.

Whats sloppy is writting 5.56 on a barrel with a .223rem chamber.
or putting a carbine gastube on a midlength barrel.
or putting out parts that cannot be assembled because they are out of spec
or cutting a chamber too tight or too large

loose upper-lower fit effects nothing except maybe your feelings towards the gun. The things listed above, and more, are critical and the chances of them happening from a company that does as much testing as Colt are pretty much 0 (but not actually since humans work there - and we make errors;)) compared to most other companies.

I'll admit, I fell into the F&F trap when I started into the AR thing. But after disecting them and looking at it from an engineering standpoint, all the lower does is hold the trigger group and receiver extention. As long as the hammer reaches the firing pin, and the bcg doesnt bind inside of the RE, the fit is tight enough.

abanks8245
07-27-12, 00:53
A hard use weapon may not be the prettiest, but pretty is not the idea here. I have seen several offering at the shop I work at from most and not all of the AR manufactures, to include noveske, bcm, colt, kac,LMT etc. Colt seems to be average to good finish wise, but as a gun I would plan using, it will get dirty/dinged, big deal. While finish is something the customers look at and sometimes agonize over , a gun that works when you want it to and will be dependable is paramount in any firearm, the term"chrome don't get you home" comes up alot. Colt has became very, very good at producing a gun that is utterly reliable and trustworthy, taking nothing from the other great AR manufacturers mentioned. When a customer buys an Ar that he obsesses about the "finish" about, I tell them buy some decent ammo and mags and lube , but before chambering a round, drop the gun on the ground once,knock the newness off, now use the damn thing. Hard use guns are to be used, sorry if I'm beating a dead horse! ill take reliability over finish anyday. Function follows form, so I thought.

Merle
07-27-12, 01:08
No, they are not the sloppiest guns you've held. No matter how loose the fit is, as long as it meets the TDP and works as it should. Colts are the most strait-laced... vetted gun you can purchase.

Whats sloppy is writting 5.56 on a barrel with a .223rem chamber.
or putting a carbine gastube on a midlength barrel.
or putting out parts that cannot be assembled because they are out of spec
or cutting a chamber too tight or too large

loose upper-lower fit affects nothing except maybe your feelings towards the gun. The things listed above, and more, are critical and the chances of them happening from a company that does as much testing as Colt are pretty much 0 (but not actually since humans work there - and we make errors;)) compared to most other companies.

I'll admit, I fell into the F&F trap when I started into the AR thing. But after disencting them and looking at it from an engineering standpoint, all the lower does is hold the trigger group and receiver extention. As long as the hammer reaches the firing pin, and the bcg doesnt bind inside of the RE, the fit is tight enough.
Whoa now, step back from the Kool-Aid. I never compared your almighty Colt to a DPMS. What do you mean by putting a carbine gas tube on a mid length barrel? Do you even know what you are saying?

Steve S.
07-27-12, 01:20
Whoa now, step back from the Kool-Aid. I never compared your almighty Colt to a DPMS. What do you mean buy putting a carbine gas tube on a mid length barrel? Do you even know what you are saying?

Haha. There was a decently well known maker who did such a thing, if I remember correctly. I'm sure Mega will say who it was.

I'm sure that employee became the "Seriously, Dude?!" guy. Most companies will most likely have a "Seriously, Dude" employee at some point. We all have our horror stories from our jobs.

Steve S.
07-27-12, 01:21
Man, I know it but sometimes I just can't help it!:D

The best arguments in life are worth repeating. :-)

abanks8245
07-27-12, 01:22
Buy with confidence, that colt socom will serve you well, enjoy it, feed it good ammo, and get a decent training class if its first Ar15, Colt ar's are the standard as grant and others have stated.

MegademiC
07-27-12, 03:08
Whoa now, step back from the Kool-Aid. I never compared your almighty Colt to a DPMS. What do you mean by putting a carbine gas tube on a mid length barrel? Do you even know what you are saying?

No cool-aid here. I dont own a colt and Im having a custom built with no colt parts. But colt does what they do and thats what leads to nicks and dings but has no effect on the actual use of the firearm except for POSITIVE effect.

My post was to contrast colt's products with some things put out by mid-level companies, whose fit and finish blow colt's out of the water. Sloppy is a bcg all over the inside of your gun(exagerated for effect) because someone forgot to stake it, not a mm of play between your upper and lower recievers that will not come apart until you push the pin.

After re-reading the thread:
1 colt costs more than some do to materials, specs, and testing
2 colt costs 1k, not 2k, so a couple dings do not bother people like they would on a kac or noveske.
3 the above would also apply to bcm/dd, though they do not have the excuse colt does for said dings, so people give colt a little leniency.
4 The dings we are talking about do not compromise integrity of materials and still have finish on them, so the gun is still 100%

This is why people hold colt in high regard and are not bothered by dings.

If I read your post wrong, then disregard mine, but it seems you had some misconceptions about where we are coming from.

To OP, I've seen posts similar to your's here and there since '06, so its been like that for some time.

MistWolf
07-27-12, 04:16
...The M16FOW isn't meant to be a pretty, collectable firearm...

...If you want a pretty, collectable firearm to pass down, take a look at the M1A, Garand, M14, or even a COLT 1911...

Make no mistake the M14, Garand and the 1911 also were not made to be pretty or a collectable. They were designed to do the same thing as the AR- To defend our nation from enemies foreign and domestic.

ARs are already being passed down and will continue to be for generations to come


...Could Colt wrap every part in a towel to keep it from getting banged up as it is transported from station to station or during the QC/testing section? Yes they could. Do they think that it is needed? No.

It's not that Colt doesn't think that PTP (Protect The Product) is needed, the customer, in this case the .gov, does not think it's needed. Colt is going to give the .gov what they want. (I say this with respect. I agree with Grant)

Gentlemen, we are at war and these rifles are needed to put our enemies out of our misery. In wartime production, ways will be found to speed production and reduce cost without compromising performance in order to get the rifles to our troops as quickly as possible. Finish cuts will be rougher where it will not affect fit, form & function. Lightening cuts will be deleted. Machining process will be simplified. Finishes will be rougher. It has happened with nearly every rifle produced during wartime. A pre-war Mauser is gorgeous example of German machining. A 1944 example is downright crude in comparison. The Japanese Arisaka suffered even greater degradation of quality as the war went on. Remington re-worked the Springfield '03 into the 03A3 to reduce cost and streamline production. Changes were made to the Garand to reduce production costs and time. What is surprising is that that the finish of the Colt is as good as it is under current conditions and it's even more surprising that Colt can also produce rifles for the civilian market

Guinnessman
07-27-12, 10:07
Yesterday, I picked up a brand new, AR6720, with all the fixins'. Upon inspection of the weapon, I thought to myself "Wow, this Colt has a beautiful fit and finish.........WTF!" Then I noticed a ragged, ugly, forge flashing in the trigger area! I was relieved at the sight of the blemish, and was worried that Colt was ripping me off!:D

On a more serious note, go shoot your new Colt, and make your own blemishes on the rifle.

ZoneOne
07-27-12, 19:41
Colt rifles are not made to be put in safes and admired.


They're made to be laid out and counted. ;)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/layout4.jpg


See all the silver surfaces on those guns? They work just fine.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-udxQnmNKLvA/T4DsnaJlZVI/AAAAAAAANRI/_Hai2E7BsF8/395832_375874072431262_293154100703260_1369425_21655295_n%25255B3%25255D.jpg


Ahh the joys of a sensitive items inventory. That's one thing I won't miss anytime soon.

usmcvet
07-27-12, 20:57
"To locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and manuver, or repel the enemy's assault by fire and close combat?." That is what the weapon is for. The Colt I looked at today at my local shop looked fine.

Have you ever carried or used a weapon? As soon as you do for a day it will have marks all over it. Who cares, it does not matter. If you don't like the Pony, don't buy one. I don't have one, I would not hesitate to buy one.


Sounds like typical outdated and unneeded government inefficiency to me. I can go down to the local gun store that sells $79.99 Aero Precision lowers and $59.99 Aero Precision lowers and have the dude behind the counter reach into a box and pull out any random lower and upper and not have any fitment problems. Add a quality lpk, barrel and bcg and I guarantee it will efficiently and accurately go bang with every pull of the trigger. I've done it many, many times. Mine will be dingless and cheaper to boot.

Not always true. I like the fact they test their products. When you open your company and start making M16's you can do it your way.


My ass is still a little chapped at them stopping "civilian" sells back in the day.....
Mine too. I am about over it now. I sold my first AR and GASP bought a Bushmaster. At the time Colt was doing all kinds of dumb shit, large hole FCG and front take down pins, no bayonet lug and no fence around the mag release. This is why I sold it and bought the BM.

I have two LMT' and two BCM's. If I get another I want a 6933.

Buy what you want. Do what you want, just don't tell us Colt is wrong until you own and operate a successful business selling the same gear they do.


Colt rifles are not made to be put in safes and admired.


They're made to be laid out and counted. ;)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/layout4.jpg


See all the silver surfaces on those guns? They work just fine.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-udxQnmNKLvA/T4DsnaJlZVI/AAAAAAAANRI/_Hai2E7BsF8/395832_375874072431262_293154100703260_1369425_21655295_n%25255B3%25255D.jpg

Suwannee Tim
07-27-12, 21:20
I have the privilege last spring of attending the ceremony marking the arrival of the P8 Posideon at NAS JAX. One of my buddies is an officer in a P3 Orion squadron and invited me. After the ceremony he showed me around his shop. I was stuck by how neat, clean and well maintained everything looked. Even his half century old warbirds looked a lot better than I would have expected. The shops, the buildings, the grounds, the sailors, even the civilian employees were groomed. I being a grizzled old curmudgeon stood out like a sore thumb. I asked Steve about it and he told me the reason everything looked so good: "A tradition of care and attention to detail that reflects professionalism and pride" was the answer. I was impressed. I'd have to ask the folks turning out these rough Colts, "Where is the tradition, the attention to detail, the professionalism, the pride?" Of course these weapons are likely to work just as well as better fitted and finished guns. My question is not about the individual weapons but about Colt. That they let stuff like this out the door, stuff that other companies would sell as blems if at all, is cause for dismay. Like I said, when producing machines (or guns) it doesn't take a lot of extra effort to make them without dings and scratches and other cosmetic blemishes. There are lots of excuses for poor workmanship, few of them good. "They are going to get beat up anyway", "They meet all the specs" and "We are at war", these all seem more excuses than reasons. This does indicate to me that there are problems at Colt, probably people problems and probably people who need to find something else to do. I'm a fan of Colt and I hope this does not indicate deep or lasting problems. I hope they get this issue straightened out before they cause their company lasting damage. Don't fool yourself, if this problem is allowed to persist it will grow and metastasize and adversely affect the function and reliability of the weapons and ultimately the prospects of the company.

MiamiSniper
07-27-12, 21:49
Colt rifles are not made to be put in safes and admired.


They're made to be laid out and counted. ;)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/layout4.jpg


See all the silver surfaces on those guns? They work just fine.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-udxQnmNKLvA/T4DsnaJlZVI/AAAAAAAANRI/_Hai2E7BsF8/395832_375874072431262_293154100703260_1369425_21655295_n%25255B3%25255D.jpg


Nice!!!!

highlighter
07-27-12, 22:02
OK so tell me guys, what testing does LMT put their rifles through? They are a mil contractor and their new guns look new.

JoshNC
07-27-12, 22:06
.....<snip>...... I hope they get this issue straightened out before they cause their company lasting damage. Don't fool yourself, if this problem is allowed to persist it will grow and metastasize and adversely affect the function and reliability of the weapons and ultimately the prospects of the company.

Firstly and most importantly this is a COSMETIC issue, not a functional issue. This issue will not (and has not) affect function or reliability of the Colt M16/AR15 series.

This has been going on at Colt for a VERY long time. Factory "rat chew marks" is what I've heard them colloquially called over on Subguns around ten years ago.

This is not new.

My first Colt M16 had raised bumps under the anodizing on the right side of the lower, apparently from aluminum slag within the forging dies. It looked ridiculous, but it functioned. It came from the factory like this. Ken Elmore told me that this is well known to Colt M16 lowers during the period when mine was manufactured (I don't remember dates).

Personally, I have firearms for utility and firearms for collecting. I am both a collector and a shooter. When it comes to collecting, I am very picky about the overall finish, rollmark depth, uniformity of finish, etc.. and when purchasing firearms to satisfy this aspect of my personal reference collection I tend to try to find perfect specimens. With regard to my "working guns", I don't care how they look, only that they perform. I have Colts that fall into both categories.

VIP3R 237
07-27-12, 22:13
Suwannee Tim does have a good point about the "Where is the tradition, the attention to detail, the professionalism, the pride?" It may be a indicator of where colt could possibly be heading. Lets hope not but maybe a couple emails to the corporate office might help.


OK so tell me guys, what testing does LMT put their rifles through? They are a mil contractor and their new guns look new.

The MRPs are works of art, however my defender was pretty rough looking, but its been an amazing rifle and now its has a couple more "personality marks" :D.

On BCM's website about LMT:
With the primary focus being a quality standard for GI sales, there are some noteworthy differences in the product as you receive it. Specific to the LMT Upper Groups, they ALL come extensively test fired from the factory. As such, every single real LMT Upper Group on the market will have significant brass, significant carbon, and handling marks on the group. Regarding the utility of the Upper Group (everything LMT builds is focused on utility); this is a very very good thing.

usmcvet
07-27-12, 22:19
I have the privilege last spring of attending the ceremony marking the arrival of the P8 Posideon at NAS JAX. One of my buddies is an officer in a P3 Orion squadron and invited me. After the ceremony he showed me around his shop. I was stuck by how neat, clean and well maintained everything looked. Even his half century old warbirds looked a lot better than I would have expected. The shops, the buildings, the grounds, the sailors, even the civilian employees were groomed. I being a grizzled old curmudgeon stood out like a sore thumb. I asked Steve about it and he told me the reason everything looked so good: "A tradition of care and attention to detail that reflects professionalism and pride" was the answer. I was impressed. I'd have to ask the folks turning out these rough Colts, "Where is the tradition, the attention to detail, the professionalism, the pride?" Of course these weapons are likely to work just as well as better fitted and finished guns. My question is not about the individual weapons but about Colt. That they let stuff like this out the door, stuff that other companies would sell as blems if at all, is cause for dismay. Like I said, when producing machines (or guns) it doesn't take a lot of extra effort to make them without dings and scratches and other cosmetic blemishes. There are lots of excuses for poor workmanship, few of them good. "They are going to get beat up anyway", "They meet all the specs" and "We are at war", these all seem more excuses than reasons. This does indicate to me that there are problems at Colt, probably people problems and probably people who need to find something else to do. I'm a fan of Colt and I hope this does not indicate deep or lasting problems. I hope they get this issue straightened out before they cause their company lasting damage. Don't fool yourself, if this problem is allowed to persist it will grow and metastasize and adversely affect the function and reliability of the weapons and ultimately the prospects of the company.

If I understand the complaints right people are complaining about very light marks on the exterior finish of guns, something a rag with some oil will wipe away.

The Colt is likely to work much better than the companies touting fit and finish because they are usually the same people cutting corners and not staking things like gas keys and castle nuts.

These guns are made to be used,mdragged through the dirt, sand, mud and blood. They are weapons of war. Not a AAA stocked Over and under or bolt gun.

They are paying attention to detail. If it bothers you that they are not pretty, buy a different gun.

usmcvet
07-27-12, 22:23
Suwannee Tim does have a good point about the "Where is the tradition, the attention to detail, the professionalism, the pride?" It may be a indicator of where colt could possibly be heading. Lets hope not but maybe a couple emails to the corporate office might help.



The MRPs are works of art, however my defender was pretty rough looking, but its been an amazing rifle and now its has a couple more "personality marks" :D.

On BCM's website about LMT:
With the primary focus being a quality standard for GI sales, there are some noteworthy differences in the product as you receive it. Specific to the LMT Upper Groups, they ALL come extensively test fired from the factory. As such, every single real LMT Upper Group on the market will have significant brass, significant carbon, and handling marks on the group. Regarding the utility of the Upper Group (everything LMT builds is focused on utility); this is a very very good thing.

My LMT was dirty from firing. I liked that. I'd rather they spend money on ammo and pay someone to test the things, I can clean it and they can keep the price a little lower. I read a thread where someone was complaining about brass markings on their shell deflector.

Safetyhit
07-27-12, 22:24
One costs $1000, the other costs $30,000.

If i bought a working truck for $1000 it could have all the dings in the world and i would buy it if it worked.


Pure idealogical crap, nothing more.

sinlessorrow
07-27-12, 22:32
OK so tell me guys, what testing does LMT put their rifles through? They are a mil contractor and their new guns look new.

Since when does the military use LMT?

highlighter
07-27-12, 22:46
Since when does the military use LMT?

Ok the Brits don't count.

sinlessorrow
07-27-12, 23:17
Ok the Brits don't count.

the brits have the L129A1 a DMR that is fielded in much much much smaller quantities.

when your entire contract is 4,000 you can put extra fine detail in fit and finish than when your contract is 4,000 rifles per month+ whatever they make for the civilian/leo side as well.

Steve S.
07-27-12, 23:33
I have the privilege last spring of attending the ceremony marking the arrival of the P8 Posideon at NAS JAX. One of my buddies is an officer in a P3 Orion squadron and invited me. After the ceremony he showed me around his shop. I was stuck by how neat, clean and well maintained everything looked. Even his half century old warbirds looked a lot better than I would have expected. The shops, the buildings, the grounds, the sailors, even the civilian employees were groomed. I being a grizzled old curmudgeon stood out like a sore thumb. I asked Steve about it and he told me the reason everything looked so good: "A tradition of care and attention to detail that reflects professionalism and pride" was the answer. I was impressed. I'd have to ask the folks turning out these rough Colts, "Where is the tradition, the attention to detail, the professionalism, the pride?" Of course these weapons are likely to work just as well as better fitted and finished guns. My question is not about the individual weapons but about Colt. That they let stuff like this out the door, stuff that other companies would sell as blems if at all, is cause for dismay. Like I said, when producing machines (or guns) it doesn't take a lot of extra effort to make them without dings and scratches and other cosmetic blemishes. There are lots of excuses for poor workmanship, few of them good. "They are going to get beat up anyway", "They meet all the specs" and "We are at war", these all seem more excuses than reasons. This does indicate to me that there are problems at Colt, probably people problems and probably people who need to find something else to do. I'm a fan of Colt and I hope this does not indicate deep or lasting problems. I hope they get this issue straightened out before they cause their company lasting damage. Don't fool yourself, if this problem is allowed to persist it will grow and metastasize and adversely affect the function and reliability of the weapons and ultimately the prospects of the company.

While I totally agree with everything you've said, I still think it may be apples and oranges.

Colts don't get the occasional ding or scuff here and there from improper treatment. It's from them constantly assembling carbines, disassembling, and repeating with different parts. That's IF this is in fact true they do this for civilian carbines. Can anyone verify that Colt treats commercial firearms the same as Mil / LE?

If it is true, I think theres a big difference between that and "Joes AR15 Shop" throwing parts around during assembly.

How bad are these firearms looking? The colts I've seen only have the occasional small mark, and i always thought it was from dealers handling them before hearing otherwise.

Again, I have no dog in this race. There's probably a dozen makers that offer ARs more my liking that I'd buy before Colt. This has nothing to do with the quality, fit, or finish of Colt though.

MistWolf
07-28-12, 05:34
..."We are at war", these all seem more excuses than reasons...

A rough finish during war time production isn't poor workmanship, nor is it an excuse. It's an expediency. Study history. You will find out nearly all firearms are finished roughly during war time to speed up production. Their tradition, attention to detail, professionalism and pride went right where it needs to go- into ensuring the rifle works as required instead of fussing over the right bouquet for the prom

Suwannee Tim
07-28-12, 07:04
A rough finish during war time production isn't poor workmanship, nor is it an excuse. It's an expediency.....

We are barely at war now and have been for over ten years, plenty of time I think to ramp up production. It is not like there are labor shortages or material shortages or shortages of capital equipment which occur in a demand stretched environment, we are in a four year recession after all. If Colt was producing at the limits of their capacity and it was necessary to cut corners I don't think they would be selling to civilians. I think Colt's problem is union protected employees with bad attitudes, I say "think", I don't know. They ought to move to a right to work state and get rid of some dead wood. Jacksonville for example. I'll help them move.

You work for Boeing MistWolf? If the P8 Posideon is any indication Boeing is able to make a product that is reliable with good fit and finish, good attention to detail and such. During "wartime". The pride, professionalism and attention to detail I referred to, I'll bet it can be found at Boeing. A damn sight more complex product than any AR. If Boeing can do it why can't Colt? We are in a very fluid economic and political environment, defense cuts are looming, the economy could get worse, gun laws could change. If they want to survive Colt needs to be improving quality not cutting corners.

You gotta bang the shit out of an AR to ding it up, same with any hard aluminum part. These parts are not being dinged up in careful or even casual handling. They are being dinged up by ROUGH handling. I know how to solve this problem. I've done it before. You ask the person banging the parts up to be more careful. They ignore you or get worse. Then you tell them. In writing. Offer to help them find more suitable employment. If that doesn't work you follow through. A handful of assholes with bad attitudes ought not be allowed to damage the reputation and business prospects of a great old company like Colt.

I don't buy the argument that "they are going to get beat up anyway". Consider military ammunition. Rounds will be pulled out at inspection for cosmetic blemishes. If there are too many blems the whole lot will be rejected. That's where Winchester white box comes from. "It's going to get burned up anyway" don't cut it.

Military contractors ought to do their best. The military ought to expect the best, the taxpayer is damned sure paying for it. I know you guys love Colt. I do too. The wrong response to someone you love not not doing their best is excuses.


If I understand the complaints right people are complaining about very light marks on the exterior finish of guns, something a rag with some oil will wipe away.........If it bothers you that they are not pretty, buy a different gun.

Though we haven't seen a photo, I don't think we are talking about marks that will wipe away. Pretty is not the point and the individual rifles are not the point. My point is about Colt and their willingness to sell blemished guns. Let me ask you a question usmcvet: Marines are known to be intollerant of those who are not doing their best, why should that not apply to Colt? When you were in boot camp did you ever get tuned up by a DI? Did that make you a bad recruit or did it mean you just needed a tune up? I don't think there is anything wrong with Colt that tuning up a few folks with poor attitudes would not cure. Attitudes are contagious, good attitudes and bad.

Split66
07-28-12, 10:58
It's not like EVERY Colt leaving the factory is banged up and cosmetically destroyed. How can you even claim poor workmanship, none of us are sitting there inspecting each piece .....:suicide:

Panties = bunched

Suwannee Tim
07-28-12, 11:03
.....new in box colt 6920 SOCOM. ....surprised at how rough the finish is on it..... dinged, knicked and marked up......before the anodizing was done......


....6920's....it was super clean, I didn't notice a single blemish.

Somebody at Colt is actively beating up parts and someone else doing the same job is not. Management has to know about it and they either won't or can't do anything about it. Companies don't get into serious problems overnight, it happens gradually and it starts with a few small problems that are not addressed.

veeklog
07-28-12, 11:03
Normal.



C4


http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Colt/Mil-Spec_Bin.jpg

Great picture Grant!

usmcvet
07-28-12, 11:38
Somebody at Colt is actively beating up parts and someone else doing the same job is not. Management has to know about it and they either won't or can't do anything about it. Companies don't get into serious problems overnight, it happens gradually and it starts with a few small problems that are not addressed.

Do you have photos? If not then you should stop spouting off about what you read someone else complaining about. You are making Huge Assumptions. I think you're also wrong but you know what they say about opinions.

What it comes down to is Colt is making guns the way their customers want the way they want it. Colt guns are made very well and come with some rubs in them. People are being silly about it. Once the weapon is carried or used by a Warrior for a Day it will have more of the same handling marks and guess what it will still work.

When you have your own company making M4s you can make them your way. I wish you the best. Or when you secure a multi year and multi million dollar contract you can have someone build them to your spec, just like the military has. They've been doing this for more than forty years, they know what they're doing.

MistWolf
07-28-12, 11:44
...You work for Boeing MistWolf? If the P8 Posideon is any indication Boeing is able to make a product that is reliable with good fit and finish, good attention to detail and such. During "wartime". The pride, professionalism and attention to detail I referred to, I'll bet it can be found at Boeing...

The pressure to deliver an aircraft is different. Rifles are being used up. With our total dominance of the sky, aircraft are not.

I do not currently work for Boeing, but for a company contracted to manufacture fuselage skin assemblies for the new 747-8 and they are behind. There is tremendous pressure for them to get caught up. Ways are continuously being looked for to speed up production but I can assure you, no corners are being cut. Boeing will not accept that. You can bet it's the same with Colt.

Colt is not delivering anything to the .gov that isn't within spec or the .gov would not be accepting delivery and would not be paying for the rifles.

There is a lot that goes on between manufacturer and customer that people have no clue about, especially when the customer is the .gov

sinlessorrow
07-28-12, 11:53
The pressure to deliver an aircraft is different. Rifles are being used up. With our total dominance of the sky, aircraft are not.

I do not currently work for Boeing, but for a company contracted to manufacture fuselage skin assemblies for the new 747-8 and they are behind. There is tremendous pressure for them to get caught up. Ways are continuously being looked for to speed up production but I can assure you, no corners are being cut. Boeing will not accept that. You can bet it's the same with Colt.

Colt is not delivering anything to the .gov that isn't within spec or the .gov would not be accepting delivery and would not be paying for the rifles.

There is a lot that goes on between manufacturer and customer that people have no clue about, especially when the customer is the .gov

exactly.

Suwanee we have posted pics of why these get dings, and honestly do you have any idea how easily the receivers on the AR-15 get dinged up? i have scratches and dings on my BCM upper and lower that I have no idea how I put them there.

wtheesfeld
07-28-12, 12:00
Combat weapons get beat up. There is no reason to ship out weapons that WILL be banged dropped thrown etc in perfect showroom finish.

I gather from this thread that the safe queen, non combat rifles leave the factory blemish free and wiped of fingerprints. Good. And the rifles spec'd out to go to war and be abused leave the factory in dependable, tested firing condition. Who cares about blemishes and dings? My colt m4 (civilian) came off that same production line, and had some scratches.

I've added a LOT more scratches.

I guess its just different mindsets. My m4 gets beat up. Like my tools. To others, its a shiny weapon they take pride in keeping spotless. Different strokes for different folks is all. No one is "wrong" I suppose.

polymorpheous
07-28-12, 13:31
Wow!
This thread needs to go the way of the Dodo.
Or back to TOS.

Deuce
07-28-12, 13:55
The Colt is likely to work much better than the companies touting fit and finish because they are usually the same people cutting corners and not staking things like gas keys and castle nuts.


You speak as if Colt doesn't occasionally mess up and skip out on staking. They do, as I mentioned earlier in this very thread. I've seen it myself on rifles we received pre-deployment (all were from the same production run) and another member here recently had to send back a BCG from his new FDE 6920 that wasn't staked at all.

No single manufacturer is perfect, they all produce lemons on occasion. Colt may produce more, but its not an excuse for a lack of attention to detail. Especially when lives are on the line for the end user.

usmcvet
07-28-12, 14:16
Wow!
This thread needs to go the way of the Dodo.
Or back to TOS.
Amen Brither.

You speak as if Colt doesn't occasionally mess up and skip out on staking. They do, as I mentioned earlier in this very thread. I've seen it myself on rifles we received pre-deployment (all were from the same production run) and another member here recently had to send back a BCG from his new FDE 6920 that wasn't staked at all.

No single manufacturer is perfect, they all produce lemons on occasion. Colt may produce more, but its not an excuse for a lack of attention to detail. Especially when lives are on the line for the end user.

No. They know the **** up. That's why they test and test and test. And why they get handling marks. I had a problem with an LMT lower. I sent it in and they fixed it. They also shot the piss out of it before I got it back. Things happen. I still think LMT rocks and bought another and lots of their uppers and BCG's.

This oh my M4 has a mark on it and the sky is falling stuff is pathetic. Grant said it best, it is a hammer. Use it like one. Take care of it and maintain it and it will take care or you.

This has more than run its course.

C4IGrant
07-28-12, 14:49
Since when does the military use LMT?

Certain "groups" in the Military do buy LMT (I know as I have sold them components).


C4

sinlessorrow
07-28-12, 15:39
Certain "groups" in the Military do buy LMT (I know as I have sold them components).


C4

Interesting, I didnt know that.

Suwannee Tim
07-28-12, 16:12
Suwanee we have posted pics of why these get dings, and honestly do you have any idea how easily the receivers on the AR-15 get dinged up? i have scratches and dings on my BCM upper and lower that I have no idea how I put them there.

No, I don't. None of mine are dinged. I don't beat on them but I don't pamper them either. That black anodize is hard stuff, I've got several thousand rounds through a 5.45 with steel cases and the case deflector is still pristine. The point is that Colt can and should do better. The fact that the rifles get beat up in the field in no excuse for delivering them that way.

sinlessorrow
07-28-12, 16:41
No, I don't. None of mine are dinged. I don't beat on them but I don't pamper them either. That black anodize is hard stuff, I've got several thousand rounds through a 5.45 with steel cases and the case deflector is still pristine. The point is that Colt can and should do better. The fact that the rifles get beat up in the field in no excuse for delivering them that way.

Well when you start making 4,000 rifles per month for the military, + all the rifles they make for the civilian and LEO sides you can let us know your recipe for doing it better? Till then you rly cant critisize a company based of one persons post of how his finish is not perfect.

If the rifle didnt function thats one thing, if the rifle has a small mark on the finish thats a totally different story.

Suwannee Tim
07-28-12, 17:13
Well when you start making 4,000 rifles per month for the military.....

By your logic none of us can criticize Colt or Bushmaster or Windham for that matter. None of us could criticize President Obama either since none of us have ever been President.

I'm said my piece. A parting though, if Colt can do it some of the time, they can do it all the time.

Arctic1
07-28-12, 17:37
A parting though, if Colt can do it some of the time, they can do it all the time.

They do inspection lot testing. That does not mean that EVERY carbine they produce is dissasembled and reassembled and the relevant checks listed in the post outlining this process.

At least that is how I read it.

sinlessorrow
07-28-12, 18:41
By your logic none of us can criticize Colt or Bushmaster or Windham for that matter. None of us could criticize President Obama either since none of us have ever been President.

I'm said my piece. A parting though, if Colt can do it some of the time, they can do it all the time.

Nice edit......

Ill say it again you are acting like the finish is torn and has dents in it, frankly the OP posted and never showed a picture so you are arguing colt should do better when you yourself say all your colts are perfect

Let me show you this.

Grant posted this picture and the op said his rifle looks like the picture, IMO there is nothing wrog with the parts in the pic.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Colt/Mil-Spec_Bin.jpg


Well, I would post a pic but the pic already posted of the parts box is pretty much what I am talking about. It isn't quite as bad as that and I suspect the oil and sheen on that receiver makes it look worse in that pic. I was pretty much picturing in my mind the marks coming from exactly that, only I thought it was probably a bunch of lowers crated together. I could care less about the marks personally, espescially since it isn't totally abnormal, knock on wood..... At least now you'll know to look I guess and not buy if it bothers you- better than seeing it when you get home.....

Thanks for the response guys!

usmcvet
07-28-12, 19:25
I don't even know the model Colt I picked up a few days ago. It was a 16" carbine. The adopt finish if anything looked nicer than most I've seen. I didn't inspect it beyond picking it up and shouldering it after checking the action. I clicked the safety on and off area times and was amazed at how smooth it was. I picked up a few other ARs on the wall and they all had the same gritty click. The Colt was very smooth and almost silent. That one little thing oozed quality to me. And the furniture has a better feel too. I think belmont is the first person I heard mention it. He was right.

Grant are the Navy MK18's LMT uppers?

usmcvet
07-28-12, 19:29
Nice edit......

Ill say it again you are acting like the finish is torn and has dents in it, frankly the OP posted and never showed a picture so you are arguing colt should do better when you yourself say all your colts are perfect

Let me show you this.

Grant posted this picture and the op said his rifle looks like the picture, IMO there is nothing wrog with the parts in the pic.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Colt/Mil-Spec_Bin.jpg

OK granted I am on my Droid but I just looked at that photo again and I see no freaking marks. Look at the quality of the finish on the bbl. Look at the finish on the bbls of other ARs next time you have a chance.

C4IGrant
07-28-12, 19:58
I don't even know the model Colt I picked up a few days ago. It was a 16" carbine. The adopt finish if anything looked nicer than most I've seen. I didn't inspect it beyond picking it up and shouldering it after checking the action. I clicked the safety on and off area times and was amazed at how smooth it was. I picked up a few other ARs on the wall and they all had the same gritty click. The Colt was very smooth and almost silent. That one little thing oozed quality to me. And the furniture has a better feel too. I think belmont is the first person I heard mention it. He was right.

Grant are the Navy MK18's LMT uppers?


Yes and no. The MK18 has a long history.

C4

a0cake
07-28-12, 20:35
OP, after 6 pages of this nonsense, why don't you post a friggen picture to show everyone what started the whole shit-show?

wetidlerjr
07-28-12, 21:44
OP, after 6 pages of this nonsense, why don't you post a friggen picture to show everyone what started the whole shit-show?

The OP's second (and last) post in this thread.


Well, I would post a pic but the pic already posted of the parts box is pretty much what I am talking about. It isn't quite as bad as that and I suspect the oil and sheen on that receiver makes it look worse in that pic. I was pretty much picturing in my mind the marks coming from exactly that, only I thought it was probably a bunch of lowers crated together. I could care less about the marks personally, espescially since it isn't totally abnormal, knock on wood..... At least now you'll know to look I guess and not buy if it bothers you- better than seeing it when you get home.....

Thanks for the response guys!

It doesn't seemed like he is anywhere near as disturbed as some others in this thread. :dirol:

a0cake
07-28-12, 21:48
The OP's second (and last) post in this thread.

It doesn't seemed like he is anywhere near as disturbed as some others in this thread. :dirol:

Yeah, well, the parts in the box are absolutely flawless. So if his statement is true, this thread is literally about nothing. A picture of the actual rifle in question is the only possible thing that could make it about something.

C4IGrant
07-28-12, 22:05
I'm said my piece. A parting though, if Colt can do it some of the time, they can do it all the time.

No one that puts out as many guns as Colt does and completes the testing that they do. In order to do this, guns are stacked on top of one another in large qty (as pictured).

To be honest, the fact that SOME Colt's have no marks on them is a testament to the quality and hardness of the anodizing!

Colt ONLY knows how to make guns one way. Either accept it or don't, but realize that comparing them to much smaller AR manufacturers that has never held a large contract for the Military is just a waste of time.


Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies. ;)


C4

usmcvet
07-28-12, 22:34
No one that puts out as many guns as Colt does and completes the testing that they do. In order to do this, guns are stacked on top of one another in large qty (as pictured).

To be honest, the fact that SOME Colt's have no marks on them is a testament to the quality and hardness of the anodizing!

Colt ONLY knows how to make guns one way. Either accept it or don't, but realize that comparing them to much smaller AR manufacturers that has never held a large contract for the Military is just a waste of time.


Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies. ;)


C4

Well put. And the last line is signature line material. If

sinlessorrow
07-28-12, 22:43
Well put. And the last line is signature line material. If

already done

texit
07-28-12, 22:57
I picked up a NIB Colt 6920 yesterday. The finish is pretty good except for a couple of dings on the narrow/sharp edges of the picatinny rails, one thread on the buffer tube that the castle nut was tightened over lost its finish and is showing bare metal, there are a few tiny dings elsewhere. But everything else is solid as a rock. Do i wish the finish was better? Yes, but oh well... The thing shoots great. This damn Colt is helping me get over my OCD towards gun finishes, I knew what I was getting into by getting a Colt.

Also, the secondary latch on the Rogers SuperStock is CHEAP!!!!!! My dad actually bent the plastic, doh!

Split66
07-28-12, 23:14
Also, the secondary latch on the Rogers SuperStock is CHEAP!!!!!!

I dumped mine for a standard M4 stock. I saw no advantage, that lock came open when the guy at the range next to me farted.

Larry Vickers
07-28-12, 23:15
Colt builds damn good AR's - for many, many years they were the absolute Gold standard- everyone knew who #1 was; the only thing open for discussion was who was #2

Only recently have other players like Daniel Defense and BCM come into the equation- what is telling is that you can ask Marty Daniels or Paul at BCM and both of them will tell you how good Colt carbines are

They have built a lot of good guns for a very long time- I have used Colt carbines in combat and they did the job I asked of it- I now use DD rifles on a regular basis as many of you know but I will always have a soft spot for Colt

Because of this I personally can overlook a few dings in the finish- because I know you can count on a Colt when you need it most

LAV

Split66
07-28-12, 23:18
Damn this thread brought the LAV out of the woodwork!

It can officially die now :D

wetidlerjr
07-28-12, 23:25
Yeah, well, the parts in the box are absolutely flawless. So if his statement is true, this thread is literally about nothing. A picture of the actual rifle in question is the only possible thing that could make it about something.

I guess the OP decided to leave all the drama to everyone else. :meeting:

.45fmjoe
07-29-12, 00:11
Colt builds damn good AR's - for many, many years they were the absolute Gold standard- everyone knew who #1 was; the only thing open for discussion was who was #2

Only recently have other players like Daniel Defense and BCM come into the equation- what is telling is that you can ask Marty Daniels or Paul at BCM and both of them will tell you how good Colt carbines are

They have built a lot of good guns for a very long time- I have used Colt carbines in combat and they did the job I asked of it- I now use DD rifles on a regular basis as many of you know but I will always have a soft spot for Colt

Because of this I personally can overlook a few dings in the finish- because I know you can count on a Colt when you need it most

LAV

It's always nice to hear people with actual experience reiterate what the rest of us know. I'm thankful my agency only buys Colt M4A1 carbines. :D

jhs1969
07-29-12, 01:50
Damn this thread brought the LAV out of the woodwork!

It can officially die now :D

No shit!

I thought this had been covered ad nausem.

It's really pretty simple,

1. If you want a pretty black wall hanger get a DPMS, Oly etc.

2. If you want a quality weapon that you can depend on to defend self/ home/ country get a Colt (or BCM or DD).

See, simple.

usmcvet
07-29-12, 08:33
already done

Classic! :D

texit
07-30-12, 11:09
Same thing happened to me....

I picked up a new in box Colt LE6920 from Bachman Pawn & Gun in Dallas on Thursday. I pointed out a few things at the store, and was told these things were normal. As I get home and inspect/clean the firearm I notice quite a few more dings/screw ups. In the store I pretty much told myself: "well, its a Colt". But when I got home these things started to irritate me. The gun was new in box, I pulled it out of the inner cardboard sleeve.

A thread on the buffer tube has its finish wore down to bare metal, the buffer tube has a gouge down to bare metal, two areas on the picatinny rails are dinged up, the area inside the trigger guard area has chips on all 4 corners (it looks like these were done before anodizing), various other little nicks/dings.

I just wanted to vent, the gun shoots great... but man I wish it didn't have all of these flaws.

I'll add pictures when I get home tonight. I keep telling myself its a tool, but its not working! hah.

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 11:15
Same thing happened to me....

I picked up a new in box Colt LE6920 from Bachman Pawn & Gun in Dallas on Thursday. I pointed out a few things at the store, and was told these things were normal. As I get home and inspect/clean the firearm I notice quite a few more dings/screw ups. In the store I pretty much told myself: "well, its a Colt". But when I got home these things started to irritate me. The gun was new in box, I pulled it out of the inner cardboard sleeve.

A thread on the buffer tube has its finish wore down to bare metal, the buffer tube has a gouge down to bare metal, two areas on the picatinny rails are dinged up, the area inside the trigger guard area has chips on all 4 corners (it looks like these were done before anodizing), various other little nicks/dings.

I just wanted to vent, the gun shoots great... but man I wish it didn't have all of these flaws.

I'll add pictures when I get home tonight. I keep telling myself its a tool, but its not working! hah.


Just so we are clear, you inspected the gun at the gun shop, found "dings" and bought it anyway? Then you decided to come to the errornet and "vent" about it??

Common sense would suggest that if you weren't happy with it at the gun store, that you shouldn't have purchased it. So you shouldn't be pissed with Colt, you should be pissed with YOU!

Its kind of like going to the car lot, looking at the scratch on the hood and saying; "I'll take it!"

If you are questioning or don't know the reason for why your Colt has "dings" on it, please read this thread closely and look at the pics.



C4

texit
07-30-12, 11:17
Just so we are clear, you inspected the gun at the gun shop, found "dings" and bought it anyway? Then you decided to come to the errornet and "vent" about it??

Common sense would suggest that if you weren't happy with it at the gun store, that you shouldn't have purchased it. So you shouldn't be pissed with Colt, you should be pissed with YOU!

Its kind of like going to the car lot, looking at the scratch on the hood and saying; "I'll take it!"

If you are questioning or don't know the reason for why your Colt has "dings" on it, please read this thread closely and look at the pics.



C4

I'm simply stating, the workmanship on the firearm made by Colt is less than desired. Corners WERE cut. No reason to get an attitude.

sinlessorrow
07-30-12, 11:20
I'm simply stating, the workmanship on the firearm made by Colt is less than desired. Corners WERE cut. No reason to get an attitude.

I think you are mistaken by the term cutting corners.

A few small dings is not cut corners. Every part of your rifle is built correctly using Colt's TDP. They did not cut corners and half ass assembly or use sub par items, all they did was not gentily handle and assemble it.

texit
07-30-12, 11:21
I think you are mistaken by the term cutting corners.

A few small dings is not cut corners. Every part of your rifle is built correctly using Colt's TDP. They did not cut corners and half ass assembly or use sub par items, all they did was not gentily handle and assemble it.

In my opinion, the dings/chips inside the trigger guard legs REDUCE/LESSEN the integrity of the trigger guard.

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 11:22
I'm simply stating, the workmanship on the firearm made by Colt is less than desired. Corners WERE cut. No reason to get an attitude.

This is where the mistaken is often made with Colt based on people that are concerned with F&F. No corners were cut by colt just because there are some dings on the gun.

The definition of "corners cut" would be lack of HPT/MPI, incorrect assembly, etc.

Building your gun, disassembling it, throwing it into a bin and then rebuilding it with another gun (to make sure everything is in spec) isn't the definition of doing things to save a buck. Honestly, it adds a lot of steps to the process and costs money. ;)

You also never answered the question as to why you would buy a gun that you weren't happy with.



C4

texit
07-30-12, 11:25
This is where the mistaken is often made with Colt based on people that are concerned with F&F. No corners were cut by colt just because there are some dings on the gun.

The definition of "corners cut" would be lack of HPT/MPI, incorrect assembly, etc.

Building your gun, disassembling it, throwing it into a bin and then rebuilding it with another gun (to make sure everything is in spec) isn't the definition of doing things to save a buck. Honestly, it adds a lot of steps to the process and costs money. ;)

You also never answer the question as to why you would buy a gun that you weren't happy with.



C4

Grant, I really appreciate your contribution and taking your time to talk with me about this. Believe me, I do. But like I posted above, the interior 4 corners of the trigger guard legs are chipped (before anodizing) which in my opinion reduces the integrity of the trigger guard area. Correct me if I'm wrong, you know A LOT more about than I do.

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 11:25
In my opinion, the dings/chips inside the trigger guard legs REDUCE/LESSEN the integrity of the trigger guard.

LOL, really?? Is this your professional opinion based off of years of experience with AR's? Or are you a mechanical engineer??


C4

texit
07-30-12, 11:25
LOL, really?? Is this your professional opinion based off of years of experience with AR's? Or are you a mechanical engineer??


C4

Seems like common sense to me?

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 11:28
Seems like common sense to me?

Well I hate to sound rude, but common sense SHOULD have told you to NOT buy a gun that you looked over and found "issues" with. ;)


Experience with AR's, knowing what is a "big deal" and what isn't is what matters.

The problems with your Colt are all F&F. Take a carbine class or two and you won't think any more about the "dings" on your weapon.



C4

Animal_Mother556
07-30-12, 11:32
Reduce the integrity...of the trigger guard legs....

That'd be an awfully deep "ding"

davidjinks
07-30-12, 11:33
So, you start a thread about this shit, it gets locked and then you come here to post the same shit?

YOU had the chance to NOT buy the Colt YOU inspected. But you did. So it's on YOU that your rifle isn't beautiful and mark free.

Post pictures or STFU about your finish and cut corners.



Seems like common sense to me?

texit
07-30-12, 11:33
Well I hate to sound rude, but common sense SHOULD have told you to NOT buy a gun that you looked over and found "issues" with. ;)


Experience with AR's, knowing what is a "big deal" and what isn't is what matters.

The problems with your Colt are all F&F. Take a carbine class or two and you won't think any more about the "dings" on your weapon.



C4

I am under the impression that NO Colt is a beauty queen. Oh well.

texit
07-30-12, 11:35
So, you start a thread about this shit, it gets locked and then you come here to post the same shit?

YOU had the chance to NOT buy the Colt YOU inspected. But you did. So it's on YOU that your rifle isn't beautiful and mark free.

Post pictures or STFU about your finish and cut corners.

David, I was told to post on this thread.

I'll post pictures tonight, I will remain civil in this discussion.

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 11:38
I am under the impression that NO Colt is a beauty queen. Oh well.

Correct. Never buy a Colt for "F&F."

Now does that mean that you can get one with no dings in the finish? Yep, see them all the time.

To be honest, I hope more of the F&F crowd AVOID Colt (which will leave more for the rest of us)!!

My advice to you is go shoot your gun, find some training classes and learn what you don't know. You have a great gun that will serve you well. Go enjoy it and log off the net!


C4

Animal_Mother556
07-30-12, 11:38
Well I hate to sound rude, but common sense SHOULD have told you to NOT buy a gun that you looked over and found "issues" with. ;)


Experience with AR's, knowing what is a "big deal" and what isn't is what matters.

The problems with your Colt are all F&F. Take a carbine class or two and you won't think any more about the "dings" on your weapon.



C4

Grant I have a question for ya...

I was finger-screwin' one of Colt's 9mm carbines about a month ago that was NIB at a gun shop. It too had the classic Colt dings. They must do the same spec testing on these 9mms? If so, why?

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 11:40
David, I was told to post on this thread.

I'll post pictures tonight, I will remain civil in this discussion.

I read your other (closed) thread. I didn't get the impression that you were TOLD to post in this one. You were advised that a thread dealing with F&F was already there and you should READ IT if you had any questions as to why your Colt came to you the way it did.


C4

davidjinks
07-30-12, 11:42
For the OP and you:

Does the rifle function without issue? Do the rounds go where you aim? Does the rifle malfunction in any way?

Same for you and the OP:

Post pictures!

And specifically for you texit:

Why did you even bother to buy this defective rifle? Then to top it off, come here and smack on about it? Then make the "boo-hoo" comment of:

"I am under the impression that NO Colt is a beauty queen. Oh well."

If you want a beauty queen, buy a beauty queen. This site isn't for that type of mentality.




I am under the impression that NO Colt is a beauty queen. Oh well.

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 11:45
Grant I have a question for ya...

I was finger-screwin' one of Colt's 9mm carbines about a month ago that was NIB at a gun shop. It too had the classic Colt dings. They must do the same spec testing on these 9mms? If so, why?

I would assume so. The big thing to understand about Colt is that they ONLY know how to build guns one way. They produce them in large lots and in doing it this way, they stack the parts and guns up in large piles (as seen in this thread). This is where and how those little dings appear.

I know people like to point to the finger at Colt and say; "That's wrong and they shouldn't build guns like that." IMHO, the REAL person(s) responsible for the finish on the guns is, well the US Govt. Apparently they are not in the "F&F" crowd (thank GOD). ;)




C4

texit
07-30-12, 11:47
For the OP and you:

Does the rifle function without issue? Do the rounds go where you aim? Does the rifle malfunction in any way?

Same for you and the OP:

Post pictures!

And specifically for you texit:

Why did you even bother to buy this defective rifle? Then to top it off, come here and smack on about it? Then make the "boo-hoo" comment of:

"I am under the impression that NO Colt is a beauty queen. Oh well."

If you want a beauty queen, buy a beauty queen. This site isn't for that type of mentality.

I don't see the Colt any different from my Mustang. I run it hard, run it like its made to run. Its made to be USED! It will get dings, scratches, etc... but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try to make it look the best it can.

Like I said, I'll post pictures tonight. The rifle is NOT defective.

I am not talking smack about it, this is a discussion forum. I wanted to talk about it. I am not saying Colt does not build a heavy duty, battle tested rifle.. they do.

davidjinks
07-30-12, 11:52
I'm sure you can buff those defects right out.....:rolleyes:



I don't see the Colt any different from my Mustang. I run it hard, run it like its made to run. Its made to be USED! It will get dings, scratches, etc... but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try to make it look the best it can.

Like I said, I'll post pictures tonight. The rifle is NOT defective.

I am not talking smack about it, this is a discussion forum. I wanted to talk about it. I am not saying Colt does not build a heavy duty, battle tested rifle.. they do.

C4IGrant
07-30-12, 12:13
.

I am not talking smack about it, this is a discussion forum. I wanted to talk about it. I am not saying Colt does not build a heavy duty, battle tested rifle.. they do.

I guess this is where I get lost. Rundown:

1. You read this thread.
2. You understood (am giving you some credit here) how and why Colt rifles are made.
3. You looked over the gun PRIOR to purchasing it and then said; "YES I WILL TAKE IT" and filled out a 4473.
4. Got home, got upset about the dings and decided to "talk about it" on a forum that puts little value in F&F.

So the question that I have is why? I am just not following this logic. The only thing that I can come up with is that you are one of those people that will buy something (knowing that it isn't perfect) just so you can complain about it and get sympathy from complete strangers.

You had to know that you were going to get a beat down on this forum for this sillyness right???



C4

Split66
07-30-12, 12:29
You can skip the pics of your "dinged up" colt carbine.....I think we all know what one looks like


http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/israeli-girl-m4-carbine.jpg

Unless it looks like that of course


:) :) :)

sinlessorrow
07-30-12, 12:57
You can skip the pics of your "dinged up" colt carbine.....I think we all know what one looks like


http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/israeli-girl-m4-carbine.jpg

Unless it looks like that of course


:) :) :)

Theres a gun in that pic..........




Oh wait now i see it

everyusernametaken
07-30-12, 13:06
You can skip the pics of your "dinged up" colt carbine.....I think we all know what one looks like


http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/israeli-girl-m4-carbine.jpg

Unless it looks like that of course


:) :) :)

I want to go there! :D

JSantoro
07-30-12, 13:28
I'm simply stating, the workmanship on the firearm made by Colt is less than desired.

Emphasis mine. There's a certain disconnect, here...

Had it truly been less than desired, it would not have been purchased.
So, you're either a somewhat compulsive buyer, or on some level you know that the finish on a fighting tool isn't supposed to mimic the showroom finish on a Porche.

You were not told to post in this thread, you were informed that an active thread regarding a particular topic already existed, in the process of having the needless duplicate/waste of space shut down. Also, telling other people to not catch an attitude when you started a duplicate thread aboard a venue that clearly doesn't allow for no better reason than "I felt like it..." it is kinda:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/531/phillip2c.jpg

So just drop it. You're doing a lot of saying something instead of having something to say.

FChen17213
07-30-12, 13:31
Is that in Israel? I'm asking because of the older CAR15 type carbine. The barrel also looks like it is 14.5" rather than 16". Also, there doesn't seem to be lots of morbidly obese people around. The gun looks like it has an auto sear pin in it.

Split66
07-30-12, 13:51
Yeah she's IDF. They have that gun to body clause....aka dont leave home without it.

Santoro that cracks me up......

"our car broke down so my mommy gave me a candy bar and I towed it all the way home"

I havent seen that skit in years LOL.

polymorpheous
07-30-12, 13:57
Aside from the Israeli dream babe...
Can we lock this thread now?

FChen17213
07-30-12, 14:02
Maybe this thread will take on a new life of its own? This is really sad if you think about it. In other countries, people are allowed to tote CAR-15s in public without people freaking out. People are allowed to own full autos readily. Young attractive people carry guns. There aren't morbidly obese blobs everywhere. There isn't a radical liberal media destroying everything, and people actually have some balls.

Oh crap....getting way off topic and this prob belongs in GD.

|Troy|
07-30-12, 14:10
Damn!, I guess I opened up a hornets nest, sorry.
Couple of things, for the record for the guys that lump me in with the F&F OCD group and say quit crying and shoot etc...., I already stated I don't care about the rough finish (evidenced by my lack of attention to the thread...), I was more just curious (and surprised) it came like this from the factory. By the way, there is no wipng these dents, dings, knicks out as some have suggested, I would guess my lower was somewhere towards the bottom of a stack of lowers at the factory, cool.
I didn't post pics because I don't care enough about the finish to figure out how to do it on here, and the picture posted looked like what I am talking about.
Last, how frickin cool is it Vickers jumped on the thread for an experts opinion on colt rifles...

|Troy|
07-30-12, 14:48
I guess this is where I get lost. Rundown:

1. You read this thread.
2. You understood (am giving you some credit here) how and why Colt rifles are made.
3. You looked over the gun PRIOR to purchasing it and then said; "YES I WILL TAKE IT" and filled out a 4473.
4. Got home, got upset about the dings and decided to "talk about it" on a forum that puts little value in F&F.

So the question that I have is why? I am just not following this logic. The only thing that I can come up with is that you are one of those people that will buy something (knowing that it isn't perfect) just so you can complain about it and get sympathy from complete strangers.

You had to know that you were going to get a beat down on this forum for this sillyness right???



C4

I'm guessing he noticed some of the concerns after he got home, I can't recall all the posts but I think he is just making the point he spent a grip of money and would rather not have these concerns.

davidjinks
07-30-12, 15:16
So if you DON'T CARE then why the hell did you even make a thread? If you don't care then you wouldn't have wasted the damn bandwidth smacking on about the finish of your Colt!



Damn!, I guess I opened up a hornets nest, sorry.
Couple of things, for the record for the guys that lump me in with the F&F OCD group and say quit crying and shoot etc...., I already stated I don't care about the rough finish (evidenced by my lack of attention to the thread...), I was more just curious (and surprised) it came like this from the factory. By the way, there is no wipng these dents, dings, knicks out as some have suggested, I would guess my lower was somewhere towards the bottom of a stack of lowers at the factory, cool.
I didn't post pics because I don't care enough about the finish to figure out how to do it on here, and the picture posted looked like what I am talking about.
Last, how frickin cool is it Vickers jumped on the thread for an experts opinion on colt rifles...

MrSmitty
07-30-12, 15:20
You can skip the pics of your "dinged up" colt carbine.....I think we all know what one looks like


http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/israeli-girl-m4-carbine.jpg

Unless it looks like that of course


:) :) :)

^ At least we all got something good out of this thread! I still haven't found the gun...

MistWolf
07-30-12, 15:34
http://www.armoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/israeli-girl-m4-carbine.jpg

There is something endearing seeing a girl with her faithful pony

JSantoro
07-30-12, 15:42
Damn!, I guess I opened up a hornets nest,

Not entirely. If one doesn't know, one doesn't know until they're told (or hit one of the Search features...plenty of older thread titles with the word "finish" in it, none of which have substantively changed).

The drama comes from the natural animosity between collectors and shooters.....everybody wants to take up sides and wear distinctive armbands, when it's possible for any one person to be a little bit of both, without the need for fatalities, pogroms, feuds or border skirmishes.

It's all very "West Side Story."