View Full Version : 50,000 (now 88K) rounds and counting: Springfield Operator
Ned Christiansen
07-25-12, 22:35
(UPDATE Oct 2014,round count now 98K plus) (Update 12-29-14, not at 103 K)
Update 12-2016, now at 118K-ish. 4th barrel, second slide
Here's an Operator belonging to my good friend Rob Donaldson. I spent the last few days with him and Jeff Chudwin, me filling the role of assistant to the assistant instructor and class armorer. Rob and Jeff were putting on a CQB class for Chicago-area police officers.
I did some minor work on this gun for Rob a few years back—it was to be his workhorse gun. I have written about Rob before (on LTW): he is a true shooter, a real hard charger. His is a protégé of Jeff and also of Henk Iverson and in addition to being a police officer, is doing training for Strike Tactical Solutions, a company that Henk originally got rolling.
So now this Operator is at 50K rounds. Here’s what it looks like:
This Kart barrel is the third for this pistol. Rob felt the first was worn at about 10,000 and had someone else replace it. I did not see the first one at 10K and I’m guessing it may have still been OK. Barrel number two simply was not fitted right nor throated or chambered right. Rob struggled with it for a thousand rounds and then brought the gun back to me and I put in this Kart Easy Fit. It has held up extremely well to the 30,000 rounds he’s put through it. Rob tells me that maybe 1% of those were jacketed, so maybe 29,700 were lead semi-wadcutters with a 5-point-something load of 231. With his very packed training schedule, he is shooting more these days than ever before, and it was a lot before. He reloads to keeps costs down.
http://www.m-guns.com/largefoto/picts/ulfls/25072012/12206743521.jpg
The frontstrap checkering has taken a bit of a beating……
http://www.m-guns.com/largefoto/picts/ulfls/25072012/17523587781.jpg
Overall right side. One version of my Shield Driver sight, made from a Yost Professional, before I started making them from scratch to my mid-eighties design. All other bits are stock Springfield except hammer and sear, plus the slide stop is not stock but neither of us remembers changing it. I believe the S&A magwell was stock on this but not sure.
http://www.m-guns.com/largefoto/picts/ulfls/25072012/17522526471.jpg
Even the original MIM ejector is still there. I must say this Springfield has held up exceptionally well. The frame rail cracked above the slide stop window—common and no big deal….. that’s all there is for cracks.
http://www.m-guns.com/largefoto/picts/ulfls/25072012/15629137401.jpg
The breech face—not as worn and dimpled as I would expect with this round count, regardless of the loads used.
http://www.m-guns.com/largefoto/picts/ulfls/25072012/11160184571.jpg
Like I’ve said, Rob runs the guns and gear hard. Not an abuser by any means, in fact he’s a rare bird in that he really dotes on his guns in terms of maintenance and lube, but—he doesn’t baby stuff. He uses his equipment to the max. I’ve had to TIG on several stops on his Wilson ten-rounders—see how this one is about to get slammed off? And the base pad saw this and took a hike!
http://www.m-guns.com/largefoto/picts/ulfls/25072012/12206748041.jpg
SeriousStudent
07-26-12, 00:34
That is a beautiful, beautiful pistol. It's like a great bourbon, that just gets better with age.
10,000 rounds is a pretty short life for a barrel. I would've expected more especially in .45. I've been getting between 50-60K with Schuemann barrels as long as I don't run continuous "Bill Drills" and heat up those barrels until theyre brown. One of my .40 guns is a Dawson build and it's over 61,000 on the original STI barrel. It keyholes with some bullets and is a bit slow but with good bullets (Zero) it'll shoot well enough. It ought to fail any time now....
Worn out, blue/black guns are PRETTY!!!
Good post, Ned :)
This barrel looks like new, probably because he shoots lead bullets.
On a side note, how important really are the "middle" sections (on the side of the mag well) of the frame rails? It seems to me most/all the slide alignment is done fore and aft, that's why glocks and other polymer pistols onlly have rail sections there. The question is because I have an old pistol with a long fisure at the base of the left rail, from the slide stop window to the end of the mag well, and I'm thinking of just cutting this section.
Good post, Ned :)
This barrel looks like new, probably because he shoots lead bullets.
On a side note, how important really are the "middle" sections (on the side of the mag well) of the frame rails? It seems to me most/all the slide alignment is done fore and aft, that's why glocks and other polymer pistols onlly have rail sections there. The question is because I have an old pistol with a long fisure at the base of the left rail, from the slide stop window to the end of the mag well, and I'm thinking of just cutting this section.
Colt does this from factory...;)
Ned Christiansen
07-26-12, 09:38
Yeah, that middle section is pretty much not participating in guiding the slide, but you could say that it helps keep crud out. Indeed Colt has been doing that for years, removing the bridge just over the slide stop window, starting on the 10mm's. The Guncrafter .50GI has them removed completely from the front to the back of the mag well.... no problem.
I'm not talking about the bridge, but removing the entire left rail section from the slide stop window to the rear end of the mag well.
Ned, do you have a picture of the Guncrafter .50GI rails?
Ned Christiansen
07-26-12, 10:16
Sorry, I don't. Might be one on the GI site, guncrafterindustries.com.
You can see in some spots where this was an OD green Operator. In the interest of getting it done and not making a Swiss watch project out of this, after checkering etc. I just cleaned it nice and dry, and put some Brownells Baking Laquer over the existing paint and the bare steel on the front strap and MSH. Seems to have held up OK given the amount of use.
Heavy Metal
07-26-12, 10:21
Yeah, that middle section is pretty much not participating in guiding the slide, but you could say that it helps keep crud out. Indeed Colt has been doing that for years, removing the bridge just over the slide stop window, starting on the 10mm's. The Guncrafter .50GI has them removed completely from the front to the back of the mag well.... no problem.
I suspect to stop people from calling and complaining the frame rail cracked.
What causes this crack? Frame Flex under recoil?
Thanks Ned, I've found the guncrafter .50 GI picure, no rails on the sides of the magwell :)
VooDoo6Actual
07-26-12, 11:23
thanks for the post.
encouraging & impressive durability.
Interesting margin on front strap radius by grip. Mine checkers around radius under grips slightly different than that one.
Mr. Christiansen thank you for posting this up, it is always great to see "real world" use.
If you don't mind I would like to ask a couple of questions; 1) How have the extractors fared during these 50k rounds? i.e. replacement intervals etc. 2) Is the factory ejector pinned?
Thanks again for posting this up, truly awesome.
1) How have the extractors fared during these 50k rounds? i.e. replacement intervals etc. 2) Is the factory ejector pinned?
This.
Ned Christiansen
07-27-12, 12:31
I'll ask The Robenator about extractors. I could tell at a glance that the one in it was not the one that came with it-- shoulda mentioned that.
The ejector-- MIM'd-- is one of those when Springfield was gluing them in. I never really liked that but have not heard many complaints.... and Rob's was fall-out loose. He said he just works around it when the gun is disassembled. Although my situation was kinda in field expedient mode, I was able to clean the holes and ejector with mineral spirits and alcohol and red LocTite it back in-- for whatever good it will do.
Dave Berryhill
07-27-12, 16:11
Great post Ned!
IIRC, the STI 2011 frame also has no rails along the sides of the mag well.
I'll ask The Robenator about extractors. I could tell at a glance that the one in it was not the one that came with it-- shoulda mentioned that.
The ejector-- MIM'd-- is one of those when Springfield was gluing them in. I never really liked that but have not heard many complaints.... and Rob's was fall-out loose. He said he just works around it when the gun is disassembled. Although my situation was kinda in field expedient mode, I was able to clean the holes and ejector with mineral spirits and alcohol and red LocTite it back in-- for whatever good it will do.
Thanks for the response, very interesting to see the ejector situation. My long standing gripe with SA is the "glued" ejectors. I realize this is just a personal thing that ultimately is probably not a big deal in the grand scheme, but it irritates for some reason.
Good to see that these hold up over the long haul though.
Thanks again.
Dave Berryhill
07-27-12, 17:28
...My long standing gripe with SA is the "glued" ejectors. I realize this is just a personal thing that ultimately is probably not a big deal in the grand scheme, but it irritates for some reason....
My fear has always been that when one becomes loose, it will move enough to break off. I realize that there isn't much room for the ejector to move about due to the size of the slot in the slide but the glued ejector never gave me a warm fuzzy feeling.
It may not be rational but gunsmiths gotta sleep at night too!
My fear has always been that when one becomes loose, it will move enough to break off. I realize that there isn't much room for the ejector to move about due to the size of the slot in the slide but the glued ejector never gave me a warm fuzzy feeling.
It may not be rational but gunsmiths gotta sleep at night too!
Wanting to make sure anything that leaves your shop is 100% so you can sleep at night knowing it might be used to save someones life...........weird.:jester:
All kidding aside, I just don't get it. I love SA pistols but don't understand how they can NOT pin all of them. Some they do and some they don't, I have a highly worked over mil-spec that was pinned from they factory but my TRP was a no-go.
Back on topic though, I am very interested to see what the extractor life has been on this particular pistol.
Mr. Berryhill, thanks for your input also, its great to see some of the best smiths out there participating here on this forum.
Ned Christiansen
07-28-12, 11:09
Dave, I agree. I was never comfy with ejectors installed that way..... "glue" where there shoulda been "steel". I've pinned several of these "just because" as I'm sure you have.
On the other hand this is the only one I really have some post-mileage knowledge of and other than the not-insignificant inconvenience of the damned thing being in danger of falling out and getting lost when you have the slide off, it does seem to have held up.
I have an inquiry in to Rob as to extractor life on this. I'm guessing that when I worked on this I'd have fitted him up an extra extractor. I know for sure that the one in it is not one I fitted to this gun, so, this must be at least the second, and maybe third.
This is a great thread and is much appreciated.
My SA MC Operator also has a "glued" ejector. I have been shooting it since 2010, with nary the round count of the above. It's reassuring to see that the above Operator is still less a pin, even after all that usage.
I was worried about "glue" when I first made the purchase, but was reassured by a very savy Operator, pistol smith, and all around good guy, that his issued MC OP never had a problem. That was enough for me.
Really good to see the entire package holding up so well.
"... The ejector-- MIM'd-- is one of those when Springfield was gluing them in. I never really liked that but have not heard many complaints.... and Rob's was fall-out loose. He said he just works around it when the gun is disassembled. Although my situation was kinda in field expedient mode, I was able to clean the holes and ejector with mineral spirits and alcohol and red LocTite it back in-- for whatever good it will do."
Ned, I had to do the same with one of my TRPs.
Is that 33 etched as Magazine number 33? :)
davestarbuck
11-20-12, 00:09
I love how a hard use pistol looks...
I prefer it to the "Glamour Shot" pictures I see alot of 1911s in.
Maybe I'll throw a picture up of my first 1911,a (cough) Tarus PT1911 that has around 12k down the pipe. Still fist sized accurate at 25 yards, but ugly as sin.
It's soon to be filled with Wilson Combat parts, just because I've never played with 1911s before
:p
Ned Christiansen
11-20-12, 08:13
Going by the last time I rummaged around in Rob's shooting bag, that "33" is the mag number.
Doc. Holiday
11-20-12, 09:09
It's always nice to see a gun used :D
Thanks for posting. Gun looks pretty good for the round count.
One of the best looking MC OPs out there. Even has the 3/4 rail which is extra sexy.
Multi-Tool
05-06-13, 10:24
I just noticed this and would like to see the pictures, but the link is now broken. Great article!
Multi-Tool
Ned Christiansen
05-06-13, 10:47
Crap! My former hosting service went kaput. I will do my best to get them back up.
Ned Christiansen
05-07-13, 09:29
I think these pics are lost at least for now-- but I will be seeing Rob in June and get some updated pics and round count-- I would guess maybe another 5-10K but he has a few other 1911's so maybe less. He keeps a precise count.
Ned Christiansen
09-06-13, 07:52
I was with Rob for a class in August (he was instructing, I was the mechanic). The trigger pull on the Operator had suddenly gone way up. I went right to the hammer and sear and other internals and started trying to figure it out. In the end it was a broken plunger tube stud allowing the safety to come up just enough to try and block the sear, making it hard to pull the trigger. I put in a new PT and everything was fine.
The plunger tube was a MIM part; current round count is around 80K (he knows wthin 5% but I can't remember within +/- 5K what he told me). Darn good life for that or any part, let alone MIM. I've always said MIM is like any other process-- not done right it can make bad parts but they aren't necessarily bad. Lots of other MIM parts on this gun that have not broken.
Dave Williams
09-08-13, 08:38
There's a Really Tough Plunger Tube out there being made you should try it out. ��
My buddy took a class from Rob at OTOA and really liked it.
I was with Rob for a class in August (he was instructing, I was the mechanic). The trigger pull on the Operator had suddenly gone way up. I went right to the hammer and sear and other internals and started trying to figure it out. In the end it was a broken plunger tube stud allowing the safety to come up just enough to try and block the sear, making it hard to pull the trigger. I put in a new PT and everything was fine.
The plunger tube was a MIM part; current round count is around 80K (he knows wthin 5% but I can't remember within +/- 5K what he told me). Darn good life for that or any part, let alone MIM. I've alwasy said MIM is like any other process-- not done right it can make bad parts but they aren't necessarily bad. Lots of other MIM parts on this gun that have not broken.
Is there any way we can get current pics of the Operator? There is nothing like a honest wear 1911...I have the exact model, and just received it back from the custom shop having it completely blacked out including barrel. It is good to know that the "evil MIM" parts that everyone wants to replace as soon as they get a gun are holding up like they are.
Ned Christiansen
09-08-13, 10:58
Yeah-- this gun rates the Extra Stout Plunger Tube for sure.... probably get one next time it's here. Wasn't gonna try installing one offsite though:p
Working on a Commander for him now that has one on it.
This might be a non issue with how slow .45 moves, but has he had any issue with his groups opening up from barrel wear over time?
A friend at a local gun shop showed me a Springfield Armory 1911 Range Officer that has been used as a rental pistol for the past 2+ years. He said the pistol gets rented almost every day and he estimated it has had at least 10,000 rounds fired through it.
He told me the accuracy was almost as good as when it was new. I inspected the pistol and was surprised at how tight the slide to frame fit and barrel to bushing fit were. That speaks volumes about the quality of the SA 1911.
Ned Christiansen
10-06-13, 11:20
Here's this gun the other day. Round count mid-to-high 80's conservatively (Rob's documentation was not handy).
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02488.jpg
Here's this gun the other day. Round count mid-to-high 80's conservatively (Rob's documentation was not handy).
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02488.jpg
Excellent! Thank you for posting another picture.
Ned Christiansen
12-14-13, 11:38
Rob's comng for a visit in the next few weeks, I'll get few more pics and we're gonna put one of my ESPT's on it:
Showing the “four studs instead of two”. But it’s more than just that. On most plunger tubes the relationship between the boss and the factory holes they go into is, well, sloppy. That makes for an installation that can be even more marginal than it might seem. The ESPT studs are larger than most others by at least a few thousandths. The extra holes, put in with the available drill jig, are several thousandths smaller. This all adds up to a plunger tube and install that is way, way stronger than traditional plunger tubes.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02603.jpg
This one shows the increased thickness of the ESPT’s walls and the overall precision machining. The plunger holes are held to a higher standard for diameter and concentricity which can be a huge benefit in, first, getting a perfect safety detent effort, and second, in maintaining it. Between a better fit with the plungers and being made from prehardened chrome-moly steel, the hole does not get wowed-out with heavy use.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02607.jpg
Rob's comng for a visit in the next few weeks, I'll get few more pics and we're gonna put one of my ESPT's on it:
Showing the “four studs instead of two”. But it’s more than just that. On most plunger tubes the relationship between the boss and the factory holes they go into is, well, sloppy. That makes for an installation that can be even more marginal than it might seem. The ESPT studs are larger than most others by at least a few thousandths. The extra holes, put in with the available drill jig, are several thousandths smaller. This all adds up to a plunger tube and install that is way, way stronger than traditional plunger tubes.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02603.jpg
This one shows the increased thickness of the ESPT’s walls and the overall precision machining. The plunger holes are held to a higher standard for diameter and concentricity which can be a huge benefit in, first, getting a perfect safety detent effort, and second, in maintaining it. Between a better fit with the plungers and being made from prehardened chrome-moly steel, the hole does not get wowed-out with heavy use.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02607.jpg
Cool, thanks for sharing your method. What is your opinion on silver soldering the plunger tube on?
SeriousStudent
12-14-13, 12:09
As always, Ned, I learn a great deal from your posts. Thanks for sharing that.
Ned, what about the plungers themselves? most of them are made soft and deform after some use.
What a cool thread, thanks for sharing.
Ned Christiansen
12-14-13, 18:47
Silver soldering it on is great..... very technique dependent though, I mean, getting a good silver joint takes the proper prep and nothing else will do. I've also TIG'd the studs inside the magwell. If I were going to do that I would rummage through whichever plunger tubes were available (used would be OK) and get the one with the heaviest wall and the not-oversizest detent holes. They vary greatly in both areas.
Plungers, I've done a whole study on and I prefer Colt parts or Wilson Combat. The W/C's can be counted upon to be .108 diameter, many others go even below .105..... another variable in getting and keeping perfect detent efforts. I find both of them hard enough. I put a lot of time into the detent efforts sometimes-- other times it just happens. I want a stiff, crisp detent action with no bounce-back coming off safe. It can be a bit of work...... and of course the stiffer the detent, the more stress is transmitted to the plunger tube and, if you are using the right side of an ambi, the more stress is put on the slot-and-blade joint. W/C's latest ambi where the whole shaft is split is interesting ad, I presume, stronger.
Ned,
How does a stronger plunger tube benefit a LH shooter? I recall reading this some time ago, from you I'm thinking, and rather than speculate, thought I'd just ask.
Thanks
Ned Christiansen
12-15-13, 14:38
I think I'm not understanding the question. 'Cause the benefits of not coming loose and being extremely damage and wear resistant are the same no matter what-handed you are :-) .
If you meant do stiffer detent efforts, I mean making it harder to move the safety up and down, have a different benefit for LH shooters, I would say possibly more since if you are carrying on your left side, you have the left hand safety lever there to bump things and go to the "off" position. Right handers not having an ambi safety don't have that to contend with. Downside is the above mentioned issue of stiffer (stronger) detents putting more stress on the blade and slot joint that connects the two halves of the ambi safety. This can be mitigated by having positive stops on the right-side portion if the ambi. It's nice when you can get them to stop "down" by having the right side lever contact the top of the right side grip. The "up" stop ought to be the right side lever contacting the underside of the slide but unfortunately I have seen very few in the last 15 years that do this-.I believe it was the original design intent by Mr. Swenson that has long since been lost in the many ambis now available.
I think I'm not understanding the question. 'Cause the benefits of not coming loose and being extremely damage and wear resistant are the same no matter what-handed you are :-) .
If you meant do stiffer detent efforts, I mean making it harder to move the safety up and down, have a different benefit for LH shooters, I would say possibly more since if you are carrying on your left side, you have the left hand safety lever there to bump things and go to the "off" position. Right handers not having an ambi safety don't have that to contend with. Downside is the above mentioned issue of stiffer (stronger) detents putting more stress on the blade and slot joint that connects the two halves of the ambi safety. This can be mitigated by having positive stops on the right-side portion if the ambi. It's nice when you can get them to stop "down" by having the right side lever contact the top of the right side grip. The "up" stop ought to be the right side lever contacting the underside of the slide but unfortunately I have seen very few in the last 15 years that do this-.I believe it was the original design intent by Mr. Swenson that has long since been lost in the many ambis now available.
I can only assume that better detent effort and maintaining it was the intrinsic benefit for the LH shooter. Makes sense.
Ned Christiansen
12-16-13, 11:18
I did a thread on this one on LTW too, which incudes some links to other high-mileage threads. Is that within the rules (checking, now that I've done it...)
http://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9204
Lost River
01-06-14, 22:18
(UPDATE Dec 2013,round count now 80K plus)
The breech face—not as worn and dimpled as I would expect with this round count, regardless of the loads used.
http://www.louderthanwords.us/largefoto/picts/ulfls/25072012/11160184571.jpg
I too have a high round count 1911. The pic of the breech face reminded me of a similar pic I took a few years back.
Mine is a very early Kimber that I tuned up.
Breech face, magwell, etc:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/032-1.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/032-1.jpg.html)
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/034-2.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/034-2.jpg.html)
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/028-3.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/028-3.jpg.html)
When they are built right, they run and run, and run...
I truly enjoy looking at "hard use" guns like the Springfield that is the subject of this thread. They just scream "tool used by a serious practitioner".
Cheers!
SeriousStudent
01-06-14, 22:23
Lost River - very nice pistol. I'm the same way, I really appreciate photos of a "well-enjoyed" 1911.
i LOVE those pics, i hope one day a couple of my 1911's will look like that. Ned love your stuff, you really need to post more pics... but then again that would keep you from building guns..... damned if you do damned if you don't ;) keep it up
Thanks for the update Ned, it is appreciated.
The MC Operator is on my short list of must have's. Just need find one since the seem to be pretty rare in my parts.
I may have missed it, but was this replacement due to failure or as an improvement? I am just trying to keep track of when failure driven replacements are being needed.
Ned Christiansen
01-10-14, 17:59
Of the plunger tube? Failure of the old one, a peg broke off.
UPDATE: 88,000 rounds. Had a visit from Rob today. Probably would have been more but he's in a new situation and the shooting has had to be curtailed somewhat.
We were looking at another project and I asked if he brought the Operator..... he did. I proceeded to take it apart just to see if there was anything picture-worth. Boy, was there. Glad I had a chance to look into it in detail-- this might have been discovered the hard way.
More later, but this is not the fault of the barrel.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02722.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02723.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02725.jpg
....so, the barrel I will be fitting this weekend will be number four for this gun-- which I'm sure didn't have to be. I'm sure the first barrel which Rob had somebody else change out at 10K was fine. Operators come with an upgraded barrel compared to some Springfields, and they are as good as any from what I've seen. So when I started this thread at 50K we should really have been going on barrel number two and not three, or as likely, not rebarreling at all. And this barrels' failure is doe to something else-- which I'll get into-- but other than that, at 38000 rounds it looks pretty good inside. I'm gonna replace it with one just like it-- a Kart..-EDIT-- that should be 68,000, not 38,000. This broken Kart has 68000 rounds through t, probably 99% lead wadcutters.
Magic_Salad0892
01-11-14, 07:09
And this barrels' failure is doe to something else-- which I'll get into--
The suspense is killing me, I really want to know what would cause cracks there specifically.
David Thomas
01-11-14, 08:40
The suspense is killing me, I really want to know what would cause cracks there specifically.
Same here!!
brushy bill
01-11-14, 09:45
Same here!!
Me three!
Ned Christiansen
01-11-14, 10:09
Let's define the part hanging down under the barrel, that has the link in it, as the barrel foot. That's generally what it's called.
The rear, vertical surface of it impacts the frame every time the pistol is fired.... every pistol design has some version of this-- something to stop the rearward movement of the barrel.
As the barrel links down it hits the vertical impact surface in the frame. If I doesn't hit it, it is the barrel link that stops the barrel and it (the link) will soon break. If this vertical impact takes place "too soon", there is probably going to be some interference in the cycle and the pistol ain't gonna work right.
But neither one is what happened here. That vertical impact surface in the frame, it is preferred to have it relieved toward the bottom so that the barrel foot impact occurs close to where the barrel foot "grows" out of the barrel body. As an alternative, sometimes you'll see the barrel foot itself with a step in it, preventing any contact toward the bottom. A great may 1911's don't have this relief and as you can see, it's hard on the barrel.
Another factor would be not having a decent fillet where the barrel foot joins the barrel body. I've seen some that were pretty sharp and they weren't breaking but it really should be there. Talking here about a small fillet like maybe .015. Usually if they have anything it's more than that like .030. This Kart barrel had it.
Now, I did not fail Rob in checking this the first time I worked on the pistol-- I made the relief cut in the frame. I know I did because the tool I use, which I made, leaves a little telltale standing nub in the center. The nub is smaller in diameter than the slot in the barrel foot that accepts the barrel link, so there's no issue leaving it there. This nub is still present in this pistol but at almost 90K rounds, the impact surface has been battered back so that the barrel was once again making contact down low. It's simple-- each impact has leverage when we have that low-end contact. When it's up high toward the barrel body, it's shear forces only and the barrel foot can take it.
As I say, many, many 1911's have this condition. Might not be a problem if the user is not shooting tens of thousands of rounds. On Rob's gun obviously this condition re-appeared gradually over 88K rounds... I just wish I'd been more diligent in checking it for him on those occasions where I have access to the pistol maybe twice a year, but I'm sure I probably glanced in there and said, yup, there's the nub, we're good.
Ned Christiansen
01-11-14, 10:49
A close-up, showing the barrel had decent root fillets.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/Image57.jpg
Ned Christiansen
01-11-14, 14:33
Top, the barrel that broke. I was thinking it had 38K through I but it's 68K... its good condition inside is due to he rounds in question being lead SWC loads, no sure what his load is but it feels like my 4.7 grain of Bullseye load. No wimpy, not smokin' hot.
Bottom, the new barrel unfired.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02721-1.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02731.jpg
Ned, what can you do to prevent this? Check the vertical impact surface in the frame periodically for peening/wear, and correct if necessary?
The barrel is still looking great internally, no doubt the lead bullets helped.
I would love to see a pic of the frame and it VIS. How much more can you machine back before the frame is toast?
Magic_Salad0892
01-12-14, 01:22
Thanks for the explanation, Ned!
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-12-14, 07:58
Ned
The cut your referring to is the "bow tie" correct?
Jon
Ned Christiansen
01-12-14, 11:45
Bowtie cut is the word used, yes. I'll get some before and after pics up and the reason for the bowtie term will be evident to those that haven't heard it.
Ned Christiansen
01-13-14, 10:30
Top, bowtie cut having been made but surface pushed back from high round count, to where the bottom of the barrel foot was once again impacting.
Bottom, bowtie cut remade and a few thou filed off the lower part of the barrel foot's rear surface for added clearance / life.
I always thought the bowtie cut seemed marginal in terms of impact area but this is the first time I've seen it do this. I like the added area of just relieving the back of the barrel foot but that is removing metal in an area that is already less than beefy. Unless by EDM it's hard to get in there and make a "D"-shaped cut in the frame.
And yes, once it was back too far, you could be stopping barrel rearward movement with the link which is not good. That's a borderline theoretical problem and in this case I was still OK
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02726.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC02733.jpg
Ned
How do you feel about the overall service life of the frame/slide at this point? Do you feel that it could go another 50k? Or is there a point that the VIS will become a problem in tolerances forcing the barrel movement to be stopped by the link?
Thanks a lot, Ned! :)
Is the relief cut at the bottom of the barrel feet cut at an angle?
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-13-14, 12:41
Well i just learned a lot of great stuff, i knew what a bow tie cut was, however did not fully understand the implications it has.
Ned Christiansen
01-13-14, 21:49
I think the frame and slide are good for another 90K! They are in extremely good shape. Part of it is that the gun started with a good frame to slide fit, I don't mean so much in terms of tightness but just a lot of good flat, smooth, square and parallel running surfaces-- where many tend more toward being, well, not so much all that, so bearing area is reduced, like the frame and slide are running against each other only on several high spots. Machining quality and heat treat of the frame and side are, I believe, everything they should be and then some, better than great many. I've certainly seen a number of Springfields that weren't nearly this good but I believe Operators are made on a different line and at a different location than the not-as-high-end models.
TiroFijo, no, it's parallel.
SeriousStudent
01-13-14, 22:08
Well i just learned a lot of great stuff, i knew what a bow tie cut was, however did not fully understand the implications it has.
Agreed. Ned, thanks very much for the explanation and the photos. I really do appreciate you and the other IP's sharing your knowledge with us. It's really helps us to become smarter end users.
I have to mirror what others have said also. It is greatly appreciated that you take time out of what has to be an extremely busy schedule to explain the intricacies of what and why. These are by far some of the best types of threads for sure, at least to me anyway.
Thanks again,
I have been following from the start, I didn't think it would make it.
I have two colts, each with over 80k rounds on the clock, a Brown with over 60k on the clock now, and am getting started on a sig 1911. All still going strong.
was this an MC operator or a lightweight or did it come from the custom shop at springfield with a steel frame?
Ned Christiansen
01-22-14, 11:07
MC I believe. All steel.
Ned, thanks for the time and knowledge sharing. Do you ever have classes on the 1911? Thanks
Ned Christiansen
01-23-14, 08:28
I do. Basically I do it when someone decides they want to host me and sets it up.
Ned Christiansen
10-17-14, 14:35
Update, I assisted Rob and Jeff in a class the last two days and had a chance to check on the Operator, which Rob was using for instruction.
"Now at over 98000" and he says he's ready to stop keeping a good count. I'm going to convince him otherwise. After a certain point, actual wear slows to a crawl except for certain parts. For example yesterday I found his extractor to actually have a small conical wear spot where it contacts the forward part of the extractor groove. He'd had a failure to extract earlier in the day so I just crisped things up with a file a bit and let the extractor in a little further, no further probs.
RD at 98K
72: You can see here where the checkering is down to bare steel where his fingers rest.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC04372.jpg
77, 78: Original MIM’d firing pin stop and ejector are still in use.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC04377.jpg
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC04378.jpg
Ned Christiansen
10-17-14, 14:42
....and the barrel, number 4, with at this time 30K through it. 95% or more lead semi wadcutters.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC04374.jpg
That really is just a thing of beauty. I'm curious, how much wiggle should the slide to frame have? Or what would be considered normal? My SA loaded seems a bit loose, but may just be me.
Impressive, most impressive.
Ned Christiansen
10-17-14, 23:24
Thoynks.
Well this gun had a good slide-to-frame from the factory. Nothing special or custom, just happened to be on the good side of the spectrum, Operators being usually better put-together than some other SA models. Lots of contact area, clean and crisp rail surfaces. It is not tight, it is not even wiggle-free, but still less movement than most guns from the factory. The slide to frame fit on this one will not be the life limiter on this one.
I rarely post, but I wanted to say thanks for keeping up with this thread. I hope my 1911s have that much "character" one day.
What generally is the "life limiter" on a production pistol such as this Operator?
Ned Christiansen
10-18-14, 09:20
Leaving out some catastrophic event that ruins the frame, I'd say it would be a crack in the slide.... in which case you could just get a new slide. A crack in the frame maybe, but I have a Colt that comes back once a year or so for maintenance or a new barrel, and the frame has cracked a few times in a few places--- I just welded them up. The slide cracked-- I'd have replaced it but the owner insisted on trying a hole at the terminus of the crack and it has held for another, well, tens of thousands (maybe not a LOT of tens, but tens). Some small parts will go by the wayside no matter who makes them at these round counts.
Here's a thread about this welded-up high-miler. http://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8365&hilit=High+Mileage
Thanks for the reply Ned!, seems mine will likely be fine. Hope for mine too look as good as that one some day, love that well used look.
Love the look of that, someday I hope to have one that looks like that..
I read thru the whole thing but maybe I missed it. I would assume with this much shooting and training that he doesn't over clean this my any means. What's his lube choice on this?
Thanks for the post and taking the time to answer the questions on here!
Ned Christiansen
10-24-14, 23:46
Of my high-volume friends, of all of them really, Rob is the best "maintainer" of the bunch. I'll ask him what he prefers but I'm going to guess he's not picky about the lube.
That is a seriously beautiful gun. Continued thanks for sharing Ned.
I love this stuff, keep it up ned
Digital_Damage
11-25-14, 21:57
I love this stuff, keep it up ned
ditto, I love seeing the results of a long term test.
Ned Christiansen
12-30-14, 12:48
Rob was over here to pick up a Commander I just finished for him and I asked to see the Operator, now at 103,000 rounds. Darn if it doesn't need a new slide, it's cracked, where one might expect, where the slide bangs the frame.
At that round count I can only say " no surprise" and "got his money's worth". He's a happy customer. Here's the one he picked up today:
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC00898.jpg
Lawnchair 04
12-30-14, 12:59
Man that's beautiful, forgive my ignorance but do you have a custom shop or is that just a hobby for you?
Very nice! If I may ask, how long has he been shooting that particular pistol to amass 103000 rounds through it, and how often did he need it rebuilt?
Ned Christiansen
12-30-14, 13:11
I do it for a living.
The Operator has had a few parts replaced but not a rebuild per se. It's on barrel #4 but coulda shoulda been #2.
Ned - again, thanks for following up! I know the MC Operators have forward cocking serrations - did the crack begin at one of the serrations, or was it unrelated? Do you think a slide without FCS would be less prone to cracks in that area, or is it inevitable?
Also - what's the plan for the pistol? Is he retiring it (that gun definitely earned it!) or will you be putting a new slide on it?
Ned Christiansen
12-30-14, 17:24
No FCS on this one.... dunno why. I am not intimate with the SA model lineup and what changes it has gone through over the years but this one is I suppose 6-8 years old and was green originally.
I'm guessing he already has made arrangements with SA to get the slide replaced. The gun is in exceptionally good shape otherwise.
SeriousStudent
12-30-14, 19:36
Thanks for showing us pics of that Commander, Ned. I always appreciate a chance to view your craftsmanship with metal.
Have a safe and happy New Year's.
ScreaminSS01
01-01-15, 16:14
What a great thread! Thanks for posting and all the update!
Coal Dragger
01-01-15, 16:29
Well that is super impressive, considering the minimal amount of parts that have needed to be replaced given the round count.
If we assume a low cost of only $.25/round fired that's a bit over $25K worth of ammo digested by that pistol at 103,000 rounds.
Well that is super impressive, considering the minimal amount of parts that have needed to be replaced given the round count.
If we assume a low cost of only $.25/round fired that's a bit over $25K worth of ammo digested by that pistol at 103,000 rounds.
25k puts things in perspective.
Coal Dragger
01-01-15, 17:10
Looked at another way, if you had a car that averaged around 30MPG and gas averaged $3.50/gallon and you burned $25,000 worth of fuel (and never wasted a drop idling etc.) your car would have 214,286 miles on it, having burned 7,143 gallons of fuel. How much would that car have cost you in maintenance compared to that pistol over the same operating period?
Ned Christiansen
01-01-15, 22:33
That does put it into perspective. 95%-plus of these rounds were 200 SWC handloads, so whatever 95K handloads costs.... roughly 67 pounds of powder at 5 grains per shot (now there's another interesting perspective). $25 a pound? What are 200 grain H&G 68's now, maybe $90/1.000 delivered? More? Primers, been a while, $25/1,000? That'd be--
67 X $25 = $1675
95 X $90 = $8550
95 X $25 = $2375
Total, $12,600 and on a 1050 machine such as Rob uses, I suppose a good 120 hours, with tumbling, primer tube loading, and all that. Am I in the ballpark on component prices? I only buy this stuff every two years or so.
If you're buying the powder in 8 pound jugs, I think you could knock around a third off of the price of the powder.
Coal Dragger
01-02-15, 10:59
But one should realistically factor in the cost of their time as well.
I reload as well, but stand by my $.25/round estimate once labor is factored. In fact for me, compared to my regular job I'm low balling myself on labor rate on some ammo I make because I enjoy it.
Ned Christiansen
01-30-15, 08:42
Cracked slide:
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC00873.jpg
Cracked slide:
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC00873.jpg
My guess is springfield would probably warranty the slide!
Even the greatest war horse will stumble. Let us know what you decide.
Ned- Could you tell us what the spring weights used in this pistol were?
Ned Christiansen
03-25-15, 10:04
16-17, he does not use 18 or above, and no Shok-Buffs.
So Springfield did replaced the slide, they treated him very well, in synch with their rep for doing so. I'll have more details and some pics as I will be looking it over today.
16-17, he does not use 18 or above, and no Shok-Buffs.
So Springfield did replaced the slide, they treated him very well, in synch with their rep for doing so. I'll have more details and some pics as I will be looking it over today.
Thanks for the reply! I take it he uses a 23 pound mainspring as well?
Ned Christiansen
03-25-15, 15:34
Whatever came in them..... all his 1911's have the factory springs in them.
Most impressive. Can we assume that SA's entry level 1911 45 would hold up this well, or does the Operator have special aspects giving it such longevity?
Ned Christiansen
03-26-15, 06:49
I've been told, and I believe, that not all models are made on the same line. Operators, Professionals, and I suppose TRP's and some others are made on a different line at a different location than the more "standard" offerings. This is not recent info but from what I see of what I understand to be recently-purchased guns, it still seems the case.
Rob's Op. and Professional are both well put together-- slide and frame rails are cut very square and straight with a lot of bearing area. Not like custom-fitted but just done right and as such not subject to the wear you would get when rails are wavy, rough, and heavily chamfered, reducing contact surfaces. I mean if they're only contacting here and there, those points are going to wear sooner.
Found a crack in the frame in a place I have not before seen cracked. Fortunately it matters little to not-at-all and I'm just going to mill it out:
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC01147.jpg
I've been told, and I believe, that not all models are made on the same line. Operators, Professionals, and I suppose TRP's and some others are made on a different line at a different location than the more "standard" offerings. This is not recent info but from what I see of what I understand to be recently-purchased guns, it still seems the case.
Rob's Op. and Professional are both well put together-- slide and frame rails are cut very square and straight with a lot of bearing area. Not like custom-fitted but just done right and as such not subject to the wear you would get when rails are wavy, rough, and heavily chamfered, reducing contact surfaces. I mean if they're only contacting here and there, those points are going to wear sooner.
Found a crack in the frame in a place I have not before seen cracked. Fortunately it matters little to not-at-all and I'm just going to mill it out:
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC01147.jpg
Thanks for continually updating this thread. I assume the metallurgy is the same between all SA guns which is why a lot of smiths like you use even the mil specs as base guns if just saving the frame and slide even though the mC OP trp etc are better fit factory guns.
That is an interesting crack. Wonder what SA would say about it. Think they would warranty it too? If they did I wonder if they would replace it with their 3/4 old style rail.
Ned Christiansen
03-26-15, 07:22
Dunno but we're not even gonna bother SA with it. Even if they warranteed it it'd be more trouble than it was worth plus we'd lose the frontstrap checkering...... I'd rather stick with the known quantity, aged though it be!
We were talking about ammo and he said, "have a look in my range bag". I went to pick it up and put it on the bench.
Ouch, my back!
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC01137.jpg
I scolded him for having too many mags and randomly tossed in like that. But I guess when a guy shoots this much and is constantly traveling.... he promised to do better. It's not as bad as it looks-- Rob is a very good maintainer of his gear.... but most mags had a burr on the top left from the slide stop. This can lead to problems left unaddressed when volumes are high. I took care of this while we chatted but lost count of the mags, there must be a hundred though.
Dunno but we're not even gonna bother SA with it. Even if they warranteed it it'd be more trouble than it was worth plus we'd lose the frontstrap checkering...... I'd rather stick with the known quantity, aged though it be!
We were talking about ammo and he said, "have a look in my range bag". I went to pick it up and put it on the bench.
Ouch, my back!
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/DSC01137.jpg
I scolded him for having too many mags and randomly tossed in like that. But I guess when a guy shoots this much and is constantly traveling.... he promised to do better. It's not as bad as it looks-- Rob is a very good maintainer of his gear.... but most mags had a burr on the top left from the slide stop. This can lead to problems left unaddressed when volumes are high. I took care of this while we chatted but lost count of the mags, there must be a hundred though.
GOOD GRAVY!!! This thread keeps getting better and better! Did he have a mag preference? There seems to be a lot of different mags, but my phone isn't giving me the best picture.
(I think I even see a lone Glock mag creeping into the group) :)
Ned Christiansen
03-26-15, 12:20
Yeah that Glock mag was comical, like rolling its eyes and whistling-- "I'm not here".
Tripps and Wilsons mostly, some CMC's. Some hodge-podge. I know when he buys new, he buys Tripps. these days.
RVTMaverick
07-16-15, 10:29
Hey Ned,
Any new Numbers/or should I say, what is the new number-rounds down the pipe or parts and or pictures of this Safe Queen?LOL :p
Peace Jeff
Ned Christiansen
07-20-15, 09:28
I should be seeing it in a few weeks and I will take a look at the shot counter (Rob hisself). Since he got the new slide, I had it for a while to put a new Shield Driver on it. With a shooter like Rob it takes a while to get the zero just right-- you can't just throw sights on and "good enough, I can hit that old fridge at 30 feet". When a shooter is really good and is particular about hitting smaller targets at greater distances, sight adjustments of even a few thousandths are not unusual.
andersenvincent7
12-03-15, 19:45
How many rounds were fired prior to the slide cracking?
Ned Christiansen
12-20-15, 15:57
80-thousand-plus. No updates, I usually don't see Rob and his guns in the winter months.
anachronism
12-20-15, 16:22
Wow! I thought I was a player because I keep about a dozen 1911 mags per gun. I'm not even close! Back to Kindergarten for me!
I thought I shot a lot and hoarded mags before reading this. Thread of the year IMO, just awesome.
Zack_trp1911
01-19-16, 00:58
Awesome post.
El_Abogado
01-23-16, 15:48
What a remarkable thread.
Ned, should we expect this kind of performance and longevity from the new 9mm offerings, specifically the Combat Operator and Range Officer Operator?
Wow
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Ned, should we expect this kind of performance and longevity from the new 9mm offerings, specifically the Combat Operator and Range Officer Operator?
Great question - inquiring minds want to know............
Ned, should we expect this kind of performance and longevity from the new 9mm offerings, specifically the Combat Operator and Range Officer Operator?
I'm not Ned but this is a play by play of a high round count test documented.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/springfield-1911-9mm.
Here's some discussion of the gun post test by a pretty qualified guy.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11835-Todd-s-Warren-1911-s-Guts
It all seems to indicate to me the gun kept going; Todd stopped the test because the barrel was shot out (TMJ +P loads; I'm not surprised) and stopped grouping well after 65k~ rounds.
Others (Frank Proctor, Costa, and Hackathorn) have used 9mm 1911's publicly quite extensively, and I'd imagine they're softer shooting in larger Government Pistols.
I think the 9mm 1911's should perform well long term.
God Bless,
Brandon
ETA: The only guns I've heard of having issues with a specific caliber were 10mm Colt Delta Elites because of frame battering, but that's not the situation with 9mm.
Also, the failures with the Warren Operator seemed to be associated with the ejector pressing against the magazine and causing the ejector to work loose/break. But those were replaced in the test by SACS, and Springfield guns are covered with a lifetime warranty.
Ned Christiansen
03-23-16, 08:38
Honestly I don't have a ton of personal ownership experience with 9mm 1911's. I've done custom work on maybe 8 or 10 of them though, and have shot several others. As to longevity and durability I would think they would tend to last a good long time. Accuracy wise I have no doubt a well-done 9mm 1911 would be no less accurate than a SIG P210 or..... or whatever the most accurate 9mm in the world is. Anyone have experience with the Pardini?
Ned Christiansen
06-12-16, 16:19
A little update on Rob’s Operator. He has been shooting a lot since the last report but not so much the Operator, he says about 4K since I last examined it, meaning total rounds at this time about 112K. Most of those of course before the new slide.
Between training gigs he stopped by and asked me to put a new set of grips on the full custom gun I did for him in ’03. He thought he’d bought VZ’s but as a testament to how good VZ’s are, there are a lot of companies now making similar grips. I would not call these a VZ ripoff necessarily, but for what Rob paid, $30, I suspect they don’t measure up to what I like to say about VZ Grips: American made from American materials to original designs by Americans, made on Haas CNC’s by entrepreneurial Americans!
I thought the pattern came up a little short so I added some vertical lines before I fitted them to the welded-on magwell (made from scratch back in ’03).
I grabbed some pics of both:
Operator: when it needed a new slide it got a new Shield Driver rear sight. Rob is basically the guy the Shield Driver is named after.
http://i.imgur.com/dk2lRcw.jpg
The current (Kart) barrel.
http://i.imgur.com/ktd5Ibo.jpg
The only thing that needed attention this time was the firing pin stop, which was cracked. Honestly, once this happens it’s pretty much done and I have not seen one “break more” but just the same I replaced it with an EGW part.
http://i.imgur.com/cahWaK2.jpg
The Caspian’s mainspring housing, made from scratch by me. Rob and I agreed in ’03 to take a little weight out where it could be done…. but as I got to know him better I could see that he really, truly uses his guns and I was worried the aluminum MSH would take a real beating from reloads so I made this stainless insert.
http://i.imgur.com/NiW9Ns6.jpg
A few weight saving measures, another window under the grips and a few cuts inside at the Pica rail.
http://i.imgur.com/PP7DXAt.jpg
Down the Caspain’s Kart barrel at about 30-40K rounds.
http://i.imgur.com/SaSc4ti.jpg
The magwell.
http://i.imgur.com/hrz6THI.jpg
Overall LH side view with the new grips. I almost told him no deal, get some VZ’s, or not deal but then I figured, the money’s already in China, so…..
http://i.imgur.com/Sb8DOJv.jpg
Dave Williams
06-13-16, 22:39
Thanks for the update, very cool.
Ned Christiansen
06-14-16, 09:55
Well Springfield can be proud of this one.
I think that was the original FP stop (can you tell me?). I don't recall changing it out-- if I had done it I would recognize it because a do a few things to them. It's possible Rob changed it out but I don't think so. I have now started tracking maintenance and repair on this thing (finally, in year ten!). I take a grip panel off and write notes on the inside with the Dremel. That way when I have the gun I have the maint. record.
Amazing thread
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An outstanding thread, Ned!
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Are there any updates, photos and what not with regard to this 1911??? I have been curious to see it after the slide crack and replacement and hear any other news ;)
Ned Christiansen
12-15-16, 21:07
Ha, as a matter of fact this gun is in my very near future and i'll have an update before Christmas!
Ha, as a matter of fact this gun is in my very near future and i'll have an update before Christmas!
I can't wait to read it!
Dave Williams
12-15-16, 21:46
Thanks in advance for sell the good pics you're going to take Ned!
This has got to be the forum's most iconic 1911 thread. :)
This has got to be the forum's most iconic 1911 thread. :)
It in part talked me into my Springfield.
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
Really want to see some updated pics as well!
My first, and cheapest, 1911 was a SA mil-spec lightweight. I did a trigger job, put on night sights, and shot the hell out of it. It cost about $450, it shot as good if not better than $1,500-$2K 1911s I have, and I have put thousands and thousands of rounds through it (NOT 88,000 though!).
Love this thread.
eternal24k
12-21-16, 20:17
I can't wait to read it!
+1, one of my favorite threads
Ned Christiansen
12-21-16, 21:15
Today's pic, Rob tells me 6,600 rounds fired since last I examined it.
http://i.imgur.com/JXMpLSz.jpg
Going back through previous posts and trying to get totals, I think that 6600 makes it 118,000 on the gun and 46,000 on this barrel....? And 15,000 on the new slide.
There really wasn't anything else picture-worthy today. The slide / frame fit continues to hold up well due to the original fitting (recently with new slide, (also well-fitted). There is a lot of contact / bearing area which is conducive to long life on this fit.
I think this thread is proof that if you buy the good stuff and take care of it that it'll last you a lifetime.
Thank you Ned for the update. Springfield makes a stout 1911. Get a little extra TLC from time to time and you have a lifetime companion. I'm itching to get that new MC Operator as I gave my last one to my brother for a song. I couldn't stand to see him buy a cheap quality 1911. $500 is still $500 and to throw it away.
Great thread for 1911's and SA, AND quality gun smithing.
PB
Ned Christiansen
12-22-16, 20:05
Hey now that is true Christian Charity, giving up your good stuff so your brother won't suffer the bad stuff, may the blessings of St. John Moses of Browning be upon you!
I get nothing for saying Springfields are good stuff, but I'll also temper that with saying, not every one every time. And some models are not as bank-vault as others. But this one sure has impressed, as has their support.
Which SA models would you recommend?
Great thread, awesome gun! This makes me want to dump everything and concentrate on my TRP!
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Ned Christiansen
12-22-16, 22:53
May sound strange but I'm not super familiar with all the different models. I thin the TRP and Professional are in the same quality category as the Operator.
May sound strange but I'm not super familiar with all the different models. I thin the TRP and Professional are in the same quality category as the Operator.
I find Springfield-Armory's website a bit complicated to find its many models. There's probably an exception, but from my recollection those model designations have the following characteristics:
-TRP. This is the acronym for "Tactical Response Pistol"; it is a (very) good quality production 1911; it may be in Springfield's "Armory Kote" finish or stainless steel.
-Professional. This is Springfield-Armory's "Custom Shop" produced 1911 model designation; they're typically running backlogs in the several month or 1 year+ range. I believe there are two different models getting the "Professional" name, 5", 5" w/rail. I thought there might be a 4.25" version, but I couldn't find one with my brief research. These models were what was available to an FBI Agent assigned to their SWAT or HRT units, although word has it individuals within these units are transitioning to Glock.
-Operator. Springfield-Armory seems to use this name to indicate when its 1911 has an accessory rail. The "Operator" moniker seems to be featured in its "Loaded", "TRP", and "Professional" model lines.
Ned Christiansen
12-23-16, 08:58
That jives with my observations. I have also come to the conclusion that if it has their stainless barrel, it's probably one of their top-end guns.
Wow......so we are looking at about 94k for a round count!
Today's pic, Rob tells me 6,600 rounds fired since last I examined it.
http://i.imgur.com/JXMpLSz.jpg
Going back through previous posts and trying to get totals, I think that 6600 makes it 118,000 on the gun and 46,000 on this barrel....? And 15,000 on the new slide.
There really wasn't anything else picture-worthy today. The slide / frame fit continues to hold up well due to the original fitting (recently with new slide, (also well-fitted). There is a lot of contact / bearing area which is conducive to long life on this fit.
Wow......so we are looking at about 94k for a round count!
Looking like 118,000 on the gun and 46,000'on the barrel
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ruckusjuice
12-24-16, 10:32
It's threads like this that keep me coming back to this forum. Solid information and analysis by subject matter experts.
Augie.Cooper
04-30-17, 18:14
Any new updates on this pistol?
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Ned Christiansen
05-01-17, 08:27
I expect some range time with Rob in the near future.
Ned,
Safe to assume the percentage of lead semi wad cutters has been maintained?
Any thoughts on the use of the lead projectiles vs jacketed as pertaining to the barrel longevity?
Thanks
Ned Christiansen
06-04-17, 20:41
I'm sure the percentages are the same.
Lead vs/jacketed on barrel life, not quite willing to put a ratio on it because of variables. I mean forcing a mile of lead wire through a barrel has got to be less destructive than a mile of copper. But I sometimes wonder if the dust left in a case from tumbling contributes to what barrel wear does occur with lead pills.
I was within 10' of this gun yesterday but there was too much going on to request a few minutes with it. Rob had just won the National Patrol Rifle Conference's competition and there was a lot of congratulating going on!
I will say that, to me, wear from lead seems smoother, more polished, than with jacketed. I'm sure it's slower, just not sure by how much. Also, some of the plated-on TMJ material "seems" harder and less slick. Like it might wear a barrel faster, but-- I don't have any data to support that.
Ned Christiansen
06-24-17, 11:36
This one is not Rob's Operator but a very high mileage Colt. I thought I had mentioned it before in this thread but did not see any pics-- anyway, this shooter I believe is even higher volume than Rob. This Colt is one I have been servicing / repairing / rebarreling for actual decades. It has been this officer's duty gun, training gun and competition gun all those years-- again with a high percentage of 200 SWC handloads. Two years ago a fairly fresh (for Jeff) barrel somehow got a big gouge in it, which has polished out nicely with the several tens of thousands of rounds fired since. Freebore and throat are becoming quite advanced.
http://i.imgur.com/kT5zb92.jpg?1
Slide stop broke. Pretty sure it's an Ed Brown, a cast part, I believe. With this much use I'd say it held up well.
http://i.imgur.com/czaOEbs.jpg
This gun is about to get a new slide and barrel.... well deserved. Current slide to frame fit as at a full .010 slop. This gun should not shoot well at all and yet for Jeff, it does. I will finally have a chance to quantify it when I do what will be pretty much a full rebuild (slide is cracked and has been for tens of thousands of rounds). I have shims already cut to crown the slide over to a no-clearance fit, let's see what effect that has on groups. There is a complete thread on this one on LTW.
Singlestack Wonder
06-24-17, 13:24
At this point in use a Glock would have seen a couple of spring changes and then continue to run. Not sure as to the point of the thread other than 1911 parts wear out and break after high round counts.
Because not everything is about Glocks
Replace any gun with 1911 and the thread will still be X gun parts wear out at high round counts. What's the point
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It's a thread from an Industry Professional documenting high round count 1911s, located in the 1911 subforum. It includes observations of said platform from an individual most people can learn from, and has led to discussion with Ned that can be appreciated by interested individuals. I'd be likewise interested in a thread about other platforms at similiar round counts in their respective forums.
I'd like to read the other thread regarding the Colt. Could someone direct me to what LTW is or link that thread?
Appreciated.
At this point in use a Glock would have seen a couple of spring changes and then continue to run. Not sure as to the point of the thread other than 1911 parts wear out and break after high round counts.
SS wonder,
If you prefer the Glock platform to this particular pistol, it's wear patterns, broken parts, "obsolescence" of the 1911 platform, etc., might it make more sense that you have Glock threads to comment on instead of this thread?
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I'd like to read the other thread regarding the Colt. Could someone direct me to what LTW is or link that thread?
Appreciated.
For Post#171, i don't know what you're referring to but "LTW" probably means this forum:
http://forum.ltwguns.com/index.php
MSparks909
06-24-17, 16:22
At this point in use a Glock would have seen a couple of spring changes and then continue to run. Not sure as to the point of the thread other than 1911 parts wear out and break after high round counts.
Thank you for your intelligent and insightful post. Now piss off :rolleyes:
For Post#171, i don't know what you're referring to but "LTW" probably means this forum:
http://forum.ltwguns.com/index.php
It is indeed. Under custom pistols, high mileage comes to town. Good read.
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It is indeed. Under custom pistols, high mileage comes to town. Good read.
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Then here's the link:
http://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8365
Ned Christiansen
06-24-17, 17:16
The round count on Rob's Operator is pretty accurate-- I'd say within 5%-- at least up until the 120K or so. This Colt, we have re-evaluated the probable, but undocumented, round count over the last few years and it is incredibly high--- I mean incredible in the truest sense of the word, as in, one might lose credibility by stating it so I hesitate to do so. Very, very conservatively it is well over 150K.
I'm not a big fan of the 1894 Winchester but to me it would be interesting to read about one that had say 100K through it and track wear and breakages. I think most people find the same of interest with a 1911, whether a fan or not-- that's the point. I definitely would be interested in tracking a Glock into the round count stratosphere.
OrlandoJones
06-24-17, 17:23
I don't care how many rounds this Springfield product has had shot through it.
In light of all the stuff they did in Illinois recently...they are dead to me.
You may not care but I find it interesting as to what the gun can withstand. I don't care who makes it.
And for the record I'm a glock guy......... but I still find this interesting
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At this point in use a Glock would have seen a couple of spring changes and then continue to run. Not sure as to the point of the thread other than 1911 parts wear out and break after high round counts.
For point of reference, Todd Green conducted a round by round test of a Glock 17, which stopped at a tad over 70k because the breech face began dimpling to the point that Glock recommended he stop shooting it.....so you may want to reevaluate your statement.
Ned Christiansen
06-25-17, 10:26
It surprises me to hear a Glock would be stopped short at 70K, but then, I'm thinking that the day Colt made this one, if they could have, they'd have said, "now don't go shooting this more than 30-40,000 times, it was never meant for that."
I happen to not have read anything on high round count Glocks but they surely are out there, at the very least at academies and such. I have no doubt that particular Glock could have gone tens of thousands more; it's natural that the mfgr would caution against it.
On a related note,I've been using shock buffs in 5 inch guns for over 30 years now, highest round count gun I had was a Colt Series 80 with over 100,000. I never experienced a crack of any kind in that gun- even the frame bridge. I know they're a little controversial, but I swear by keeping a fresh shock buff in a 5 inch gun.
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It surprises me to hear a Glock would be stopped short at 70K, but then, I'm thinking that the day Colt made this one, if they could have, they'd have said, "now don't go shooting this more than 30-40,000 times, it was never meant for that."
I happen to not have read anything on high round count Glocks but they surely are out there, at the very least at academies and such. I have no doubt that particular Glock could have gone tens of thousands more; it's natural that the mfgr would caution against it.
Here's a link to the series. It's pretty detailed. The gun actually started out as a malfunctioning mess.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/gen4-friday
On a related note,I've been using shock buffs in 5 inch guns for over 30 years now, highest round count gun I had was a Colt Series 80 with over 100,000. I never experienced a crack of any kind in that gun- even the frame bridge. I know they're a little controversial, but I swear by keeping a fresh shock buff in a 5 inch gun.
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I agree, I put them in at the range and take them out when I leave. There's no downside.
Ned Christiansen
07-28-17, 11:26
While I keep trying to hook up with Rob's Operator for a proper update and pics, let me throw in a little filler here. Colt Rail Gun, 6000 rounds. Discuss.
http://i.imgur.com/jUjY2rU.jpg?2
http://i.imgur.com/Y7m852B.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EL5ksiR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/e2facEl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5LS2uDG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6VGCJte.jpg
eternal24k
07-28-17, 11:31
Well that is really disappointing. Did this have the dual recoil spring?
While I keep trying to hook up with Rob's Operator for a proper update and pics, let me throw in a little filler here. Colt Rail Gun, 6000 rounds. Discuss.
http://i.imgur.com/jUjY2rU.jpg?2
http://i.imgur.com/Y7m852B.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EL5ksiR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/e2facEl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5LS2uDG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6VGCJte.jpg
While I keep trying to hook up with Rob's Operator for a proper update and pics, let me throw in a little filler here. Colt Rail Gun, 6000 rounds. Discuss.
http://i.imgur.com/jUjY2rU.jpg?2
http://i.imgur.com/Y7m852B.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EL5ksiR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/e2facEl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5LS2uDG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6VGCJte.jpg
Quality makes it a colt! :D I'm just kidding, I have one and would not want to see that in any of my guns... Colt, Baer, or otherwise.
A-Id be interested in hearing more of the background story. What ammo, spring change intervals, etc....
B- I would be interested in knowing if this is in any way related to the Marine Corps decision to have the rail beefed up.
Ned Christiansen
07-28-17, 15:23
Well the overall quality of this gun was very high. I don't think the barrel was flawed. There was one simple manufacturing step that didn't get done right / done enough. See in the frame how that bottoms of the barrel feet were impacting. A proper flat-bottomed relief is present but was not as deep as it should have been. Impact at that point is really a bad thing and that is what broke the barrel. Absent that I believe the gun would have been fine for many thousands more.
Ammo type, not sure but the issue ammo there is 230 Gold Dot.
Nothing to do with the rail.
Well the overall quality of this gun was very high. I don't think the barrel was flawed. There was one simple manufacturing step that didn't get done right / done enough. See in the frame how that bottoms of the barrel feet were impacting. A proper flat-bottomed relief is present but was not as deep as it should have been. Impact at that point is really a bad thing and that is what broke the barrel. Absent that I believe the gun would have been fine for many thousands more.
Ammo type, not sure but the issue ammo there is 230 Gold Dot.
Nothing to do with the rail.
Thanks!
I was wondering if this would pop up in this thread. The owner of that Colt is a close personal friend, I've shot that gun before. He's on the same Team that Rob and I used to be on. I must admit that I've been beating him MERCILESSLY over this thing because that's the kind of relationship he and I have.
Background: the man is a serious shooter and VERY meticulous when it comes to maintenance. He's been running either an 18# or 18.5# spring for a couple years but I can't remember why (I think another local guy that you were teaching with this week told him to maybe?). Training ammo is whatever we can get, last year it was Winchester 230 gr ball and I'm pretty sure he's still working through our stash of that. This gun is open-carried on duty year round in the far west Chicago suburbs and on a part-time SWAT Team.
Only slightly off topic: He called Colt to ask about getting a new barrel. Was told their warranty ends after a year so he'd have to pay. He was none too happy but asked how long it would take anyway, the answer was at least 6 months. He took about another 15 seconds to tell them what he thought of their company and products and hung up.
Edit: I forgot to mention the guy is bleeping infatuated with FrogLube, uses it exclusively on the Colt and a couple other guns including a high end bolt gun. Ned: I would consider myself in your debt if you would tell him the stuff is trash and to stop using it when you get his slide back to him. Let him simmer for a couple days so I can beat on him some more then I'll show him this thread.
Ned Christiansen
07-30-17, 09:54
I will definitely work with you on this and I think we can bring in a third conspirator to help, his father in law.... how about I "find" a warranty bulletin from Colt warning about the effect of any kind of mint derivative on stainless barrel steel?
That would be....glorious. As a matter of fact we were on the range last night (he's carrying a glock 21 while waiting on the colt) and he was grumbling about how the frog lube wasn't on it.
I will definitely work with you on this and I think we can bring in a third conspirator to help, his father in law.... how about I "find" a warranty bulletin from Colt warning about the effect of any kind of mint derivative on stainless barrel steel?
That would be....glorious. As a matter of fact we were on the range last night (he's carrying a glock 21 while waiting on the colt) and he was grumbling about how the frog lube wasn't on it.
You guys are awesome! :neo:
Ok I'll keep it brief since this isn't exactly about broken barrels but...the guy is now frantically searching the web for references to froglube on colts. He got notified you Ned and his father in law and I mentioned it to him. He's trying to argue that too much of the stuff is what causes problems and it's worked for him but if he needs to he's going to strip it off his pistol. He also tried to pass off a photo of a perfect pistol qual with his Ned-tuned gun as his own work but he's full of $&@%.
I'm going lay it on him for at least 2 more days.
ETA: he's not trying to pass off the Gunsmithing as his..he made a fake qual target and took a picture to try and crank me which (admittedly) worked very briefly.
Ned Christiansen
08-07-17, 10:06
Did you get the part where I suggested his father in law tell him that Tactical Gun Floss had dropped mint and now had only watermelon and pina colada?
Watching TV the other night I caught the pistol from this thread http://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8365&sid=2b6a04382e363283653da3d57e940a87&start=30 in action and grabbed a quick screen shot.
47024
Looked like it ran pretty well.
Ned Christiansen
08-14-17, 08:18
Good eye! That one just got laser welded on the rails and is getting a complete new top end.
Thanks. I was just sitting there and there it was.
I would have posted in the original thread but I never got accepted to that forum. You can tell him his pistol is unique enough it doesn't get missed.
Stupid question on the Colt, but it that a 1 piece barrel or is the dookickie that holds the link welded on??
Not that it matters. For the $$ rail guns go for having a busted barrel after 6K is unacceptable.
Ned,Just out of curiosity, have you gotten to examine any of the Colt Combat Units or commercial M45A1's?
How do they compare to what you're seeing posted in this thread?
Ned Christiansen
08-14-17, 19:27
Taz, it's all one piece; in Colt's case it's from a forging. nothing wrong with the barrel here, I believe it was all about impact at the bottom end of the barrel foot. other than that I think this was a good gun and would have gone a good long time.
one, I have seen all of one single CCU, shown to me by a Marine. This sample of one was not ready for war. Although I confess I did not shoot it and this was a couple years ago now, the main things that stand out were the sharp edges and how thick the paint was and that it was affecting the movement of the safety. I just wish and have for many years now, that Colt would put another ten minutes into each gun and charge three bucks for each of them. It ought to be well worth $30 to have a gun that is not also an edged weapon that works only on the wielder.
Here's the old Colt, welded:
http://i.imgur.com/StCYoHb.jpg?1
Taz, it's all one piece; in Colt's case it's from a forging. nothing wrong with the barrel here, I believe it was all about impact at the bottom end of the barrel foot. other than that I think this was a good gun and would have gone a good long time.
one, I have seen all of one single CCU, shown to me by a Marine. This sample of one was not ready for war. Although I confess I did not shoot it and this was a couple years ago now, the main things that stand out were the sharp edges and how thick the paint was and that it was affecting the movement of the safety. I just wish and have for many years now, that Colt would put another ten minutes into each gun and charge three bucks for each of them. It ought to be well worth $30 to have a gun that is not also an edged weapon that works only on the wielder.
Here's the old Colt, welded:
http://i.imgur.com/StCYoHb.jpg?1
Mr. Chistiansen, thanks for the clarification. I'd venture the underside of those legs have the tell tale striations of fatigue failure. It's amazing to see just how much energy the frame and barrel have to deal with.
Ned Christiansen
08-15-17, 14:00
I've seen a few fail like this and not all were stainless. It's till hard for me to believe 100% that low impact is causing it; and if you look at it, it is not exactly sheared off along the axis of the barrel, it's yanked down and out by the roots all the way up to the chamber.
Serpico1985
08-17-17, 06:32
Ned,
As always really enjoy your posts. What kind of welds were used to do those rails? Micro tig? Laser?
When your re-cutting a welded up frame to fit a slide what kind of clearance are you going for for a work/duty/carry gun? .001" clearance?
Do you use lapping compound on the slide to frame fit?
Thanks for your time Ned!
Zack
Serpico1985
08-17-17, 06:32
Duplicate, sorry.
Ned Christiansen
08-19-17, 17:20
That's laser. I am fortunate to have access to a real maestro of TIG and laser. Although I do a ton of measuring during the process, the final fit is more of a feely thing than a dimensional thing. I have not used lapping compound for a long time although I'm not saying it's wrong.
Ned Christiansen
11-13-17, 15:18
Still working on this old Colt on a catch-as-catch-can basis, almost ready to test fire with the new slide and barrel and snapped a few pics today.
The magwell, and the bottom of the mag chute, show that a boat load of reloads have taken place here. Jeff has actually worn out a mag catch to the point where it was holding mags too low and the gun started misfeeding. If you think about it, even at 150,000 rounds, which we are certain this gun is way over that but at 150 K that’s 18-20,000 reloads. Shooting with him as I often do, and watching him, I can say, “Reloading, yep. He’s got that down”. The S&A magwell would not be my choice for high-end custom gun but it works well and with a little tightening-up stays in place well enough for a good side-to-side match. Anyway it’s Jeff’s preference and I seldom contest what he uses since he uses it so dang well.
https://i.imgur.com/pnBhxr7.jpg?1
Even the top of the mag chute shows some wear from all this reloading. The four-post plunger tube has been on there since before they came out and is staying tight.
https://i.imgur.com/pYiDYHR.jpg?1
This is one of the most interesting hard-use telltales. When you shoot this much you have many magazine. Some may be sharpish at the top edges of the feedlips; as the magazine is inserted and comes in contact with the mag catch it is bumped hard over to the left. Do that enough times and you get this:
https://i.imgur.com/kvU4Ea4.jpg?1
….and, on the rear wall of the mag chute, at a certain point there are roundy grooves worn in, about .005 deep, where the rear of a magazine’s upper profile will make contact before the mag is forced into better alignement. I stuck a mag in there to illustrate this. CMC Power Mags were never my favorite but Chip's latest with the rolled lips and improved follower have been great sofar:
https://i.imgur.com/wtNM9Ah.jpg?1
Makes me think of the distinctly different "stages" of the reload, in the sense of feeling the magazine make contact with all of the aforementioned parts. It certainly does seem like some mags are easier to get in the gun vs other brands, at least in feel.
That's glorious Ned. Thank you for posting.
Ned Christiansen
11-17-17, 10:26
So..... the new top end seems to have tightened up groups a little.
DANG IT why did I have to fire that fifth shot.
Left target, "as received". Right target is, I confess, the best of several groups I've fired but not a fluke. And the front sight at that point was a temporary one, something I do sometimes to get an idea of what level the new front sight needs to be cut in at.... a 3-48 socket head cap screw. I can dial it in for elevation and know exactly how high to make the new front sight. Point being the head of a screw is a poor front sight but this new Kart barrel looks like it will do the job. I will be doing further grouping with it as I finish it up in the coming weeks, with ammo that might be more accurate than my 200 SWC load as in these two targets.
https://i.imgur.com/mO7CC99.jpg?1
That old conventional wisdom about the first shot in a group being outside the group-- with accuracy like this you would see it. I test for this all the time just because, well, much of the shooting I do is checking accuracy or zeroing so it's kinda easy to watch for this phenomenon and I just don't see it. I always note, too, the very first round out of a new barrel and even that does not tend to go to a different POI.
RVTMaverick
11-21-17, 13:22
Hey Ned,
The Colt frame you're showing, with the welded frame rails, for the mating slide, is it the same Colt from post #185 July 28. Where you posted some pictures of the Cracked Barrel in the link area?
The work you did here Definitely tighten up the groups!
Peace Jeff
Ned Christiansen
11-21-17, 16:55
No. The one in post 185 is a fresh-faced, innocent cheerleader, completely unfamiliar with the ways of the world, who took a little fall at practice.
This one has walked the streets of Amsterdam 365 a year for decades and never gone home with empty pockets.
QuickStrike
11-25-17, 10:28
Wonderful thread Ned!
Besides a properly fitted barrel, quality ignition parts and fitted extractor and fps, do you recommend anything else for a reliable and lasting 1911?
At this point in use a Glock would have seen a couple of spring changes and then continue to run. Not sure as to the point of the thread other than 1911 parts wear out and break after high round counts.
Which glock?
The ones in .40 or 45 acp right?
How long do they last in those calibers?
Ned Christiansen
11-28-17, 07:06
Wonderful thread Ned!
Besides a properly fitted barrel, quality ignition parts and fitted extractor and fps, do you recommend anything else for a reliable and lasting 1911?
If I had to take a fleet of say thirty 1911's and had only twenty minutes each to inspect and correct, with no access to parts, I would first check safety systems, then look at extractor tension and shape, then feedramp profile (not polish so much as profile). There is of course puh-lenty more but those are two biggies. Ignition parts would not be my first concern in this scenario but yeah, usually that would be optimal. Barrel fit for accuracy would be a low-priority concern but again when we have the option of optimizing this area, it's worth it. Barrel fit also impacts reliability.
Ned, thanks for your posts on the 1911, I appreciate your time and expertise.
Based on your above comment what, if anything, would you recommend if the starting point is a good quality 1911? Basic Colt or Springfield, if one had more time but not wishing to break the bank?
RVTMaverick
11-28-17, 10:25
No. The one in post 185 is a fresh-faced, innocent cheerleader, completely unfamiliar with the ways of the world, who took a little fall at practice.
This one has walked the streets of Amsterdam 365 a year for decades and never gone home with empty pockets.
LMAO! What an explanation of 1911 LIFE:haha:
Ned Christiansen
11-29-17, 10:43
LMAO! What an explanation of 1911 LIFE:haha:
It's the truth! Well, maybe the streets weren't in Holland, but....
1986s4, that's always a tough question, I know that only a few can say "if cost were no object", but there is a pretty close relationship between price and what I think is a satisfactory 1911 in the context of the many things that come into play, ordered something like this: safety, reliability, durability, ergos, customer support. Accuracy and looks come last but it is really pretty easy to get it all-- if cost is no object. And I don't mean some $6-$10,000 custom masterpiece you waited years for, I mean something from any of those three places in Arkansas.
I do think Colt and Springfield are good solid guns / good places to start. Depending on the model and the alignment of the stars you can get a good Colt, or it might wind up being a good start,\.... I think Springfield is better at details on their higher-end guns like the Operator, TRP, etc. And Springfield has been a lot better at support going by what guys tell me. One thing that has plagued Colts is sharp edges. You can always get one running but nobody likes rounding the edges on a brand-new blued gun. And nobody likes getting cut every time you work the gun!
It's the truth! Well, maybe the streets weren't in Holland, but....
1986s4, that's always a tough question, I know that only a few can say "if cost were no object", but there is a pretty close relationship between price and what I think is a satisfactory 1911 in the context of the many things that come into play, ordered something like this: safety, reliability, durability, ergos, customer support. Accuracy and looks come last but it is really pretty easy to get it all-- if cost is no object. And I don't mean some $6-$10,000 custom masterpiece you waited years for, I mean something from any of those three places in Arkansas.
I do think Colt and Springfield are good solid guns / good places to start. Depending on the model and the alignment of the stars you can get a good Colt, or it might wind up being a good start,\.... I think Springfield is better at details on their higher-end guns like the Operator, TRP, etc. And Springfield has been a lot better at support going by what guys tell me. One thing that has plagued Colts is sharp edges. You can always get one running but nobody likes rounding the edges on a brand-new blued gun. And nobody likes getting cut every time you work the gun!
I totally Agree with you Ned. :)
Not sure if this is a new change for Colt or not, sample size of 1.... But my Colt Comp .45 actually had a fair around of rounding done to the edges on the slide.... given one side was rounder than the other ;)
It's the truth! Well, maybe the streets weren't in Holland, but....
1986s4, that's always a tough question, I know that only a few can say "if cost were no object", but there is a pretty close relationship between price and what I think is a satisfactory 1911 in the context of the many things that come into play, ordered something like this: safety, reliability, durability, ergos, customer support. Accuracy and looks come last but it is really pretty easy to get it all-- if cost is no object. And I don't mean some $6-$10,000 custom masterpiece you waited years for, I mean something from any of those three places in Arkansas.
I do think Colt and Springfield are good solid guns / good places to start. Depending on the model and the alignment of the stars you can get a good Colt, or it might wind up being a good start,\.... I think Springfield is better at details on their higher-end guns like the Operator, TRP, etc. And Springfield has been a lot better at support going by what guys tell me. One thing that has plagued Colts is sharp edges. You can always get one running but nobody likes rounding the edges on a brand-new blued gun. And nobody likes getting cut every time you work the gun!
Ha! Ned I have a formerly blued Colt with formerly razor sharp edges. It's been tamed in the edge department which required a new finish [cerocote]. It was and still is reliable and accurate enough for my eyes. I guess I got lucky.
Ned Christiansen
01-20-18, 11:05
So I delivered this old Colt with the new slide and barrel last week. 710 rounds on it sofar, must be the weather holding him back.
I dearly love this thread.......thanks for sharing all this information
I was surfing through this thread from pg. 1 this afternoon agonizing over how photobucket has destroyed one if the greatest 1911 technical threads ever online.
This should have been a book instead of a thread. I've learned more in these pages than anything before.
I would absolutely agree to the above ^
I was surfing through this thread from pg. 1 this afternoon agonizing over how photobucket has destroyed one if the greatest 1911 technical threads ever online.
This should have been a book instead of a thread. I've learned more in these pages than anything before.
uh YES, not to derail, but what are folks using to get pics up. I have not posted a pic in years
PB
uh YES, not to derail, but what are folks using to get pics up. I have not posted a pic in years
PB
I have been using Imgur myself. Seems to be pretty decent for my uses.
Photobucket broke the internet worse than net neutrality.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ned Christiansen
02-07-18, 18:54
Imgur.
May they never commit the devious stupidity that PhotoIdiot did.
May the janitor at PhotIdiot kick over the mopwater and short out their server, causing whatever hostage pics they didn't already delete, to be deleted.
Actually I don't wish that upon whatever few customers they have remaining, but I do wish it upon them.
This thread is a huge Springfield testament and a huge testament to good gunsmithing. I appreciate great guns and great work, its the best of both worlds. And lastly a testament to the platform that lives today as strong as ever. My apologies for my soapbox speak but it cant be contained. at the moment.
PB
Ned Christiansen
02-20-18, 22:34
Pappabear, I sense that you are currently very vulnerable inside the confines of a gun store with a lot of 1911's in the case. Believe me, I totally understand about a sudden, unexpected Jonesing for this or that firearm. Just sayin', exercise restraint during this time of unbridled 1911 lust, take care not to buy something stupid and lose your dignity ;-)
Pappabear, I sense that you are currently very vulnerable inside the confines of a gun store with a lot of 1911's in the case. Believe me, I totally understand about a sudden, unexpected Jonesing for this or that firearm. Just sayin', exercise restraint during this time of unbridled 1911 lust, take care not to buy something stupid and lose your dignity ;-)
Oh that gave me a chuckle. Great advice, just a week too late! Luckily, I have a master closet project that has abruptly stifled my nonsense.
PB
Ned Christiansen
02-21-18, 08:58
Whew. My first speed scan of that gave me a scare that you had bought something really bad and were keeping it in the closet.
Whew. My first speed scan of that gave me a scare that you had bought something really bad and were keeping it in the closet.
Oh no, I bought a LNIB NHC Heine and a SS TRP, both I got very good deals. I bought the NHC, then came across the SS TRP for $999 LNIB, and was like shit here we go again. I feel very good about my purchases, but the fiesta has come to a screeching halt.
It caused me to look hard at the 1911 platform and learn more about it.
PB
Ned Christiansen
02-21-18, 09:56
Good choices!
Ned Christiansen
03-03-18, 13:56
What happens some times when you become complacent. Not related to the above guns but it happens even to smart, careful people some times:
A Springfield 9mm barrel that had a bullet stuck in it. The owner did not have a proper punch so used, well, an improper punch. It is all “metal gone” and little to nothing hanging into the bore—and still shoots reasonably well although I don’t know how well it shot before. Probably better. But, 2” or so at 25 yards with Lapua and RUAG ammo, not bloody awful.
https://i.imgur.com/NB6dsrA.jpg?1
A Kart barrel in .45. Owner advises accuracy went all to hell, I didn’t try it, just replaced it with another Kart. They are excellent barrels. Got one stuck in it, didn’t realize it, shot it out. Sometimes they bulge, sometimes they blow, but it always sucks!
https://i.imgur.com/0Z4MvvZ.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/zWpQV3L.jpg?1
An unfired Wilson barrel…. Very, very nice inside.
https://i.imgur.com/kV1ZP88.jpg?1
Inside the 9mm, Lyman borescope:
https://i.imgur.com/ntB3aqw.jpg?1
Ned,
What is the main reason people get bullets stuck? Hand load an underpowered load? Im pretty surprised that barrel shoots even Minute of bad guy, it looks like a crime scene in there.
PB
I’m not Ned, but I’d bet my 401k you hit the nail on the head. I cannot remember witnessing a squib that was not rolled at someone’s home.
What typically happens when that second round hits, I thought it blew up the gun, but Ned had that barrel with big belly. That would be one wild sensation , that I care not to experience.
PB
I’ve seen bulges like that, I’ve seen split barrels. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a true explosion or anything like that. I’ve seen polymer pistols do weird stuff like the grip split and kick the magazine out in pieces.
I’ll take a lot of flak for saying it, but that’s why I buy factory ammo and shoot Glocks. It is an extreme rare occasion where I am shooting a competition and see a malfunction with a Glock shooting factory ammo from factory mags. It just doesn’t happen.
Ned Christiansen
03-03-18, 21:01
Those were both with hand loads.... I guess no one will be surprised to hear that.
Not to say factory ammo never does the same. But.
I'd have to really stop and think but I feel pretty confident stating that 3/4-plus of the bulged and split pistol barrels, and many of the KaBoomed AR's I've been hands-on with, were shooting one kind or another of reload.
Gary1911A1
03-04-18, 08:25
Back when I reloaded on a RCBS Rock Chucker it was hard to reload a case without seeing there was enough powder in the case. Now that we have progressives we can reload more but people just get sloppy doing it.
Ned Christiansen
04-19-18, 17:06
The barrel, 6-8000 rounds more since last report. We know this because Rob told me he loaded that many in one whack and is now out. Lead SWC’s.
https://i.imgur.com/WXJYqCp.jpg
Cracktrackerpic. I will eventually just mill this right out unless if falls off first. No downside, really.
https://i.imgur.com/1luQ8j1.jpg
Shield Driver sight, holding up well if I may say so. It should, it’s made from prehardened chrome moly steel, like gun parts used to be made from. Most of the wear is from the Safariland 6004 holster. Rob is the guy who inspired me to name the sight Shield Driver.
https://i.imgur.com/MoMNtLM.jpg
Feedramps need to be deep enough and at the right angle. What they don’t need is a mirror finish, although, yes, it has come to be expected on a custom gun and sure, there’s no harm in it. I do it when I’m wrapping one up, and did it on this one— over 120,000 rounds ago. I think I’ve repolished it a time or two over the years but didn’t bother with it this time around.
https://i.imgur.com/Y6R52ST.jpg
Since 2016 I've been keeping a running account of breakages / repairs / upgrades by engraving it on the inside of one of the grips.
SanDiegoLMT
04-24-18, 23:51
Any pictures of the full assembled pistol? Thanks for the updates!
Ned Christiansen
04-25-18, 22:13
The Operator as it is at the moment:
https://i.imgur.com/qFyfcS5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/30fTMwq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pEIXXRn.jpg
And Bingo SA for the win !! Such a sweet rig. Glad I have one . Just need to put another 40,000 rounds down the pipe.
PB
The Operator as it is at the moment:
https://i.imgur.com/qFyfcS5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/30fTMwq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pEIXXRn.jpg
front strap wear, left handed, wedding band?
This is cool. I love these kinds of torture tests.
I just got one of these in 10mm. Doubt it'd go 88,000 rounds. Doubt I'd want to shoot 88,000 rounds of 10mm.
Ned Christiansen
04-26-18, 15:15
This one is now at > 128000 rounds.
I never really asked what it was that damaged the frontstrap, I'll ask.
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