Is XCR style bolt catch and FAL style charging handle possible to be used on AR15?

[teengunlover]

These days one of my friend claims that he had a new design of AR lower which allowed XCR/ACR style bolt catch operation, is it possible? It seemed that there's no enough room for XCR style bolt release to be placed since the mag catch is in the way. Then He said that he also got a new design of some sort of monolithic upper with FAL style charging handle and will also allow using traditional ar charging handle, I know that some ARs are dual-charger(JP, ADCOR.....), but is it possible to use FAL style charger which combined with forward assist?
I'm not an AR expert, so I place my question here. Below is the only two pics he gave me, I'll try to get more information(pics) as soon as possible. If this thread violate any rules of the forum please forgive me since I really don't know where to place it.

[Todd00000]

So I have something similar to an AR but different enought that I have to retrain myself. No thanks.

[DMR]

First Alex will likely sue him for the bolt release. Rock River was one of the named parties in his suit for thier use of the same concept on the LAR-8 series. I suppose I can see his side of the issue, but the basic concept has is used on the FAL is old.

Grizzily already produces a side charger LAR upper for the AR. So again not a new concept. LWRC also makes them for the RPER.

That said good luck.

[sinlessorrow]

Its interesting but I dont see the point.

1. Bolt release. The bolt release on the ar-15 is in a great spot, its easy to hit when inserting a new mag as either a lefty or a right handed user.

2. CH. now maybe im in the minority here, but i prefer the location of the AR CH over any other. Its in a location that allows it to be virtually snag free, its non recip, and has no chance of intefering with any items on the rifle.

I always see the argument about having to move our cheek to charge your rifle, but your only going to do this during either 1. First chambering a round, or 2. Stoppage drills. 1. Is pretty simple and to the stoppage issue, if i get a stoppage ill have to move the rifle around to see the stoppage so a forward CH offers nothing IMO.

Maybe its just me but other than to be different i dont see the use of the mods.

[GUNSLINGER67]

While I don't mind the charger on an AR , I do lean slightly towards the AK's location and it's use as a forward assist , pure simplicity at it's best .
I just picked up an LAR Grizzly upper with their side-charger set up for my Grendel build and really like the looks of it .

[BUBBAGUNS]

I think American Spirit Arms markets a side charger as well.

[Jack-O]

The XCR fixed a lot of what was wrong with the AR. other than for pure fun and education why even bother trying to redesign the AR further? hasnt that horse been beaten enough? the AR design is what it is, either use it in it's proven and reliable form or design a whole new rifle and change a bunch of things. it looks to me that what is essentially being tried, is to design the ACR or XCR all over. they already did that.

The XCR is good to go. what was done with the design was not original but it was the first to incorporate a bunch of really good ideas into one design and make them work reliably then bring it to market and tweak it till it was really really good. THAT'S the key to a successful design.

I think it's funny that people wait with bated breath while the army or whatever service tests carbines for the newest and greatest design to be named king. all the while we have the ideal carbine staring us in the face (the 6.8XCR) being ignored because people are terrified of taking an afternoon to learn something new and a wee bit different.
To be frank tho it's all just banal, moot discussion because a carbine is a carbine and it's always been the operator and his fighting mindset that makes for success. these design elements are so far down the list of things that make for success it's silly. I suppose we wouldnt have anything to talk about if we just discussed mindset tho, so for now I guess we can just blab about the tools instead of the user.

[sinlessorrow]

The XCR fixed a lot of what was wrong with the AR. other than for pure fun and education why even bother trying to redesign the AR further? hasnt that horse been beaten enough? the AR design is what it is, either use it in it's proven and reliable form or design a whole new rifle and change a bunch of things. it looks to me that what is essentially being tried, is to design the ACR or XCR all over. they already did that.

The XCR is good to go. what was done with the design was not original but it was the first to incorporate a bunch of really good ideas into one design and make them work reliably then bring it to market and tweak it till it was really really good. THAT'S the key to a successful design.

I think it's funny that people wait with bated breath while the army or whatever service tests carbines for the newest and greatest design to be named king. all the while we have the ideal carbine staring us in the face (the 6.8XCR) being ignored because people are terrified of taking an afternoon to learn something new and a wee bit different.
To be frank tho it's all just banal, moot discussion because a carbine is a carbine and it's always been the operator and his fighting mindset that makes for success. these design elements are so far down the list of things that make for success it's silly. I suppose we wouldnt have anything to talk about if we just discussed mindset tho, so for now I guess we can just blab about the tools instead of the user.

I wouldnt call the 6.8XCR the ideal carbine

[Jack-O]

I wouldnt call the 6.8XCR the ideal carbine

Cool. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[teengunlover]

Well, that's a lot of information, thanks everybody;).

However, with more details my friend released to me is that most side charging AR uppers featured reciprocating charging handle which sometimes hit things(fingers/covers/whatever....) and the some don't fit with standard AR lower(JP?/LWR?C/spike?) due to the bolt catch, and the charging handle sometimes fall out cause they're simply threaded onto to bolt, is it ture?:confused: My friend(Lets call him N) said that he had experienced this kind of malfunction.....

He also says that the MEGA monolithic upper can't use pinned on gb which might cause the gb to ge loosen, is that true? I've heard quite a lot of camped and set screws gb falling off(especially piston kits....).

By the way, He seemed to use some sort of linking mechanism to achieve two kinds(traditional and xcr style) of bolt release method to be operated on one rifle, so it's simply some sort of traditional bolt catch extension, will it violate anyone's patent then? If it will then i'll warn him about it.:ph34r:

Repeat again, i'm not the designer of this system.

[sinlessorrow]

Well, that's a lot of information, thanks everybody;).

However, with more details my friend released to me is that most side charging AR uppers featured reciprocating charging handle which sometimes hit things(fingers/covers/whatever....) and the some don't fit with standard AR lower(JP?/LWR?C/spike?) due to the bolt catch, is it ture?:confused:

He also says that the MEGA monolithic upper can't use pinned on gb which might cause the gb to ge loosen, is that true? I've heard quite a lot of camped and set screws gb falling off(especially piston kits....).

By the way, He seemed to use some sort of linking mechanism to achieve two kinds(traditional and xcr style) of bolt release method to be operated on one rifle, will it violate anyone's patent then? If it will then i'll warn him about it.

Repeat again, i'm not the designer of this system.

Make sure ur buddie knows if he makes this LMT and Rob arms will sue him.

[teengunlover]

Thanks, I'll warn him about it.:agree:

[Pax]

Also make sure he knows that a decent portion of the community would be very interested in such a system, and if he could work out a licensing agreement with LMT and Rob Arms, it would seem well worth it to the end users who have been calling for such a system for years.

Weve had everything in between, every little almost correct product try to fill this niche. The BAD, the Weapon control Device (or whatever) guys, the umpteen guys that have lowers with integrated bolt releases- but nobody ever just gave us the simple, proven and most importantly desired vertical bolt catch/release right behind the magwell on an AR platform.

He gets this out in a well-marketed, produced and supplied fashion, it WILL change the world of ARs. Tell him to cut down on the OD of the handguard, make it with VLTOR KeyMod system available as an option at least, and definitely consider integrating the buffer tube into the lower. There never was and never will be any reason to mess around with threading a buffer tube into the lower and relying on some sort of locking nut to secure it when you can just machine it.

Hes got my vote entirely. More power to him and fight LMT and Rob Arms ruthlessly. This industry's exact progress ought not to be determined by what sells best, who has the IP rights to what- no. It ought to be determined explicitly by what is effective under tactically-demanding circumstances, and this is it. I will actively refuse to support any company that contributes to other determinations of our progress (or lack thereof).

[teengunlover]

Also make sure he knows that a decent portion of the community would be very interested in such a system, and if he could work out a licensing agreement with LMT and Rob Arms, it would seem well worth it to the end users who have been calling for such a system for years.

Weve had everything in between, every little almost correct product try to fill this niche. The BAD, the Weapon control Device (or whatever) guys, the umpteen guys that have lowers with integrated bolt releases- but nobody ever just gave us the simple, proven and most importantly desired vertical bolt catch/release right behind the magwell on an AR platform.

He gets this out in a well-marketed, produced and supplied fashion, it WILL change the world of ARs. Tell him to cut down on the OD of the handguard, make it with VLTOR KeyMod system available as an option at least, and definitely consider integrating the buffer tube into the lower. There never was and never will be any reason to mess around with threading a buffer tube into the lower and relying on some sort of locking nut to secure it when you can just machine it.

Hes got my vote entirely. More power to him and fight LMT and Rob Arms ruthlessly. This industry's exact progress ought not to be determined by what sells best, who has the IP rights to what- no. It ought to be determined explicitly by what is effective under tactically-demanding circumstances, and this is it. I will actively refuse to support any company that contributes to other determinations of our progress (or lack thereof).

Just contact him by phone, and he says that a "monolithic lower" will not work well cause the buffer tube actually take stress from been stroked by buffer which monolithic lower "will" crack down after shooting about 3000rounds.......

He also says that the BAD lever do work quite well but blocking the way of some ambi mag release.

He just gave me some 3D files however due to the copyright I cannot put it on forums. I'm sure that the VOLTOR key mod can easily be done and it's fxcking skinny(handguard width only 5cm between rails.....)

Another strange question though, what's the definition of receiver?

[sinlessorrow]

Also make sure he knows that a decent portion of the community would be very interested in such a system, and if he could work out a licensing agreement with LMT and Rob Arms, it would seem well worth it to the end users who have been calling for such a system for years.

Weve had everything in between, every little almost correct product try to fill this niche. The BAD, the Weapon control Device (or whatever) guys, the umpteen guys that have lowers with integrated bolt releases- but nobody ever just gave us the simple, proven and most importantly desired vertical bolt catch/release right behind the magwell on an AR platform.

He gets this out in a well-marketed, produced and supplied fashion, it WILL change the world of ARs. Tell him to cut down on the OD of the handguard, make it with VLTOR KeyMod system available as an option at least, and definitely consider integrating the buffer tube into the lower. There never was and never will be any reason to mess around with threading a buffer tube into the lower and relying on some sort of locking nut to secure it when you can just machine it.

Hes got my vote entirely. More power to him and fight LMT and Rob Arms ruthlessly. This industry's exact progress ought not to be determined by what sells best, who has the IP rights to what- no. It ought to be determined explicitly by what is effective under tactically-demanding circumstances, and this is it. I will actively refuse to support any company that contributes to other determinations of our progress (or lack thereof).

His biggest difficulty will indeed come from rob arms for the CH and bolt catch system, and LMT for the monolithic upper.

But ifhe can do it, it will sell

[teengunlover]

Forget to say, I'm now sure his charging handle just "look like" FAL charging handle, it is retained and locked by a different way to prevent steel latch/detent marring aluminum receiver, although bolt catch located in the front of the trigger guard it act totally different from XCR/ACR, which still have a traditional ar-style bolt catch function to allow users to function.... the receiver is actually polylithic?(well hard to define his system is monolithic or polylithic though...... ) POF receiver isn't monolithic, right?

[sinlessorrow]

Forget to say, I'm now sure his charging handle just "look like" FAL charging handle, it is retained and locked by a different way to prevent steel latch/detent marring aluminum receiver, although bolt catch located in the front of the trigger guard it act totally different from XCR/ACR, which still have a traditional ar-style bolt catch function to allow users to function.... the receiver is actually polylithic?(well hard to define his system is monolithic or polylithic though...... ) POF receiver isn't monolithic, right?



A monolithic reciever is one that is extruded from a solid pieve of aluminum.

POF's are 2 piece.

[teengunlover]

Sounds like if the barrel don't directly lock on the handguard-receiver section make it "polylithic", if then he don't need to deal with LMT.

Then the only problem is the bolt catch..... so even the location of the bolt catch violate Robinson's patent? Even if the mechanism got nothing to do with XCR/ACR?:confused:

[sinlessorrow]

Sounds like if the barrel don't directly lock on the handguard-receiver section make it "polylithic", if then he don't need to deal with LMT.

Then the only problem is the bolt catch..... so even the location of the bolt catch violate Robinson's patent? Even if the mechanism got nothing to do with XCR/ACR?:confused:

polylithic is like the vltor one, it starts life as a upper and a handguard, they then assemble them and forge them together using some unknown method.

rob arms is pretty sue happy, he has sued both FNH for the SCAR and magpul for the ACR so if anything even remotely resembles his stuff he will sue.

[teengunlover]

I thought Voltor's upper is actucally once piece milled out with 9/12/3 o'clock rail, and what make them polylithic is actucally the removalble 6'clock rail, am I mistaken?

By the way, why LMT didn't sue Rob? XCR is also monolithic.....

[sinlessorrow]

I thought Voltor's upper is actucally once piece milled out with 9/12/3 o'clock rail, and what make them polylithic is actucally the removalble 6'clock rail, am I mistaken?

By the way, why LMT didn't sue Rob? XCR is also monolithic.....

the XCR is not a ar-15 platform rifle.

also note LMT has the patent for complete mono uppers without a removeable lower section. this is why they wont sue colt.

colt has a patent for mono uppers with a removeable lower section.

from vltor.

The manufacturing process of the VIS is unique...starting with what is essentially a traditional separate upper receiver and handguard, these parts are partially machined then permanently joined using an exclusive welding process - this composite unit is then stress relieved, final machined and heat treated. This innovative process allows the VIS to accept any standard AR barrel! The only thing that is changed is the barrel nut used with the VIS, the required barrel nut and wrench is included with each VIS kit.

[teengunlover]

That guy finally allow me to release some more pics, he had finished the following designs.

1."polylithic" upper receiver accept "FAL" style CH and traditional CH, and accept any AR piston kit and any other bolt carrier(traditional CH required). It also accept standard barrel and dust cover.

2.7-position self-energy regulating piston system which allows operator to adjust firing rate. No need of adjust for suppressor attach. although it might look somewhat alike AA kit, but i swear that it got nothing to do with it.......

3. billet lower with XCR bolt catch combined with traditional bolt catch. It accept any mag release/ trigger group/ stock/ and grips

Cant believe he finished all three designs in 2 monthes:blink:....... but that poor guy can't produce it (or even try to) due to his location(somewhere in Asia where he'll be in jail for a long long time or even need to face death penalty :suicide2:if he try to make any gun parts).

[sinlessorrow]

That guy finally allow me to release some more pics, he had finished the following designs.

1."polylithic" upper receiver accept "FAL" style CH and traditional CH, and accept any AR piston kit and any other bolt carrier(traditional CH required). It also accept standard barrel and dust cover.

2.7-position self-energy regulating piston system which allows operator to adjust firing rate. No need of adjust for suppressor attach. although it might look somewhat alike AA kit, but i swear that it got nothing to do with it.......

3. billet lower with XCR bolt catch combined with traditional bolt catch. It accept any mag release/ trigger group/ stock/ and grips

Cant believe he finished all three designs in 2 monthes:blink:....... but that poor guy can't produce it (or even try to) due to his location(somewhere in Asia where he'll be in jail for a long long time or even need to face death penalty :suicide2:if he try to make any gun parts).

it looks good but tell your friend to keep it DI, if its a piston I doubt it will sell as well.

[teengunlover]

Well, the piston kit can be changed back to DI in his models.....

He said that he don't want to fight with Rob so he is now thinking of designing an auto-bolt release for AR so you don't need to operate it.....

[Pax]

Next Generation Arms doesnt seem to have a problem with integrating the RE into the receiver. Naturally, the model they did it with is highly untested as of now, but then they arent really known for bringing shit products to market.

The BAD caused a few issues with FTLBs, but even ignoring those, my main concern with any device of that type is that I could snap it in half in a few seconds if I really tried, whether it was installed on a gun or not. A beefier, more robust system that accomplishes the same goal would be greatly appreciated.

Next question: Why isnt HE here discussing this with us? Why are we having these discussions through an intermediary? If this is a serious option for the market, not just some guy drawing up dreams in a CAD program, he should be taking it seriously.

[teengunlover]

He isn't here because he is now limited to use internet for some "personal reasons"(do you believe these days some schools in Asia actually limits their student to use internet in several ways? like download limits, upload limits, etc....) That's why I need to reach him by phone(international calls really cost quite a lot.......) everytime and wait quite a long time for him to send me files....
P.S. His school IP is now banned for a week due to the file size he send me so he can't send me files in a short time, this school's rules seemed to be silly isn't it......

But yes it might end up to be made up to a polymer model and he have to hand out to his teachers and he can keep no rights to decide what to do next(That's another silly things from some SE Asia countries, what student design(even collage students) will not be their design but their teacher's, and will take YEARS for their teachers to put it onto the market table .....)

Oh and by the way, I've seen quite a lot of stuffs which "were" some dumb-ass "childish" "silly" 3d CAD drawing though(some were even just 2d.....), including some serious stuffs.....knives/some grips/flashlights/metal sights for firearms/some really expensive bikes.... and when you're really trying to make something it really took you lots of time, it's not you get the thought and something(even a small stuff like a new ar grip) will come out tomorrow even if you have every tools beside you.... So even if you took it seriously it's still not so easy to make a new stuff(check out a guy who once made out a prototype ambi side eject bullpup which I thought his rifle's name start us L however I forget the whole name... you'll understand how difficult for a guy(not a whole company though) to make a new stuff.