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View Full Version : Anyone seen a M-4 with A2 upper?



fowler
07-28-12, 07:23
A retro I am working on is going to have a A2 upper with 16" M4 profile barrel. Seems these are middle ground carbines between the Xm-GAU types of the beginning to the current M4 models. I like the A2 upper with peep sites. I found some Colt 727 pictures,but not any good U.S. information on use in service or dates.

jtb0311
07-28-12, 17:45
I believe Colt model 727s were built with both A1 and A2 upper receivers. I'm not sure if there was ever an actual, USMIL designated M4 that had an A2 upper, rather than a flat top.

Biggus
07-29-12, 01:37
Very early batches of M4s and M4A1s had the A2 uppers, which were replaced fairly quickly.

727s came before M4s, although they shared a few features in the early days of M4 production.

723s had A1 or C7 uppers, and 727s had A2 uppers.

fowler
07-29-12, 14:55
Yes looks like Airforce GAU's company armourer would rebuild with a mix master of parts as other branchs in the teething years of the birth of the M4's. I have seen M-4 stepped barrels on A1 rec.'s to. Keep um in service and working.

AMMOTECH
07-30-12, 17:02
A guide to some of the AF carbines:
http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/ModGde/CrbGde/USAFGdeCrb.html

http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/Slide26-484x359.jpg

http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/Slide18-488x363.jpg

.

fowler
07-31-12, 07:17
Nice photo's ammotech. I have been on retroblackrifles,but never looked at the airforce carbine blog,very nice. I like the oldschool airforce GAU's.

Todd00000
07-31-12, 12:59
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107954
Forget the CAR and the GAU, meet the GUU.

This was at the range today with an Air Force LTC it is a M16 lower, M16-A2 upper, M4 barrel and stock. They call it the Goo, he said the armorer called it Frankenstein.

12621

12622

fowler
07-31-12, 14:45
Nice Todd,the guu and gau are kin used at same time to present. Both good carbines and still in service as you show proof of today. Mix - master Franken-carbines. Thanks for photo's

Todd00000
08-01-12, 07:30
Nice Todd,the guu and gau are kin used at same time to present. Both good carbines and still in service as you show proof of today. Mix - master Franken-carbines. Thanks for photo's

Did you notice the grey color of the AR-15 lower? That thing is old.

scottryan
08-01-12, 09:48
Very early batches of M4s and M4A1s had the A2 uppers, which were replaced fairly quickly.





Got any proof of that?

Todd00000
08-01-12, 10:01
Nice Todd,the guu and gau are kin used at same time to present. Both good carbines and still in service as you show proof of today. Mix - master Franken-carbines. Thanks for photo's

Did you notice the grey color of the AR-15 lower? That thing is old.

Dano5326
08-03-12, 00:04
long ago issued a "727" with A2 upper, "m4" stamped above gas tube cloverleaf. M4 feed ramps in upper.

As I recall, for NSW, there was a transition period between A2 uppers and flattop uppers. Some lowers were marked m16A2 carbine & some m4. None had burst.

I am unsure of what ARSOF was issued.

Col_Crocs
08-03-12, 03:08
Did you notice the grey color of the AR-15 lower? That thing is old.

A little side track... Hasn't that lower been refinished/coated? It looks that way, atleast from the photos.

Todd00000
08-03-12, 05:03
A little side track... Hasn't that lower been refinished/coated? It looks that way, atleast from the photos.

It looked original to me and it is an AR-15/M16 so the color fits.

Col_Crocs
08-03-12, 05:51
Oh alright. Must be the light. Thanks!

Biggus
08-03-12, 06:45
Got any proof of that?

Just from memory. What I'm thinking of might have been a rebuilt 727, but I was sure I was looking at an M4. This is going back a good decade or more.

kaltesherz
08-04-12, 21:24
Got any proof of that?

At the Ft Benning Infantry Museum they had on display the first M4 ever built, IIRC it had an A2 type upper and a glossy finish. I don't know if it made it to the new Infantry Museum...

scottryan
08-05-12, 09:45
At the Ft Benning Infantry Museum they had on display the first M4 ever built, IIRC it had an A2 type upper and a glossy finish. I don't know if it made it to the new Infantry Museum...



That isn't proof.

Nobody has posted a property marked matching M4 or M4A1 with a fixed carry handle. This debate has gone on for 10 years.

Everyone one of these stories turns out to be a model 727 or a property marked M4 lower that was rebuilt with a 727 upper, or some type of colt prototype.

I have uppers in my personal collection that were from the first month of M4 and M4A1 production and they have C AF gray flattop uppers.

rljatl
08-05-12, 10:39
Found this pic on another site...

kaltesherz
08-05-12, 12:25
Found this pic on another site...

That's a removable carrying handle- not what we're talking about at all

Todd00000
08-06-12, 10:53
That isn't proof.

Nobody has posted a property marked matching M4 or M4A1 with a fixed carry handle. This debate has gone on for 10 years.

Everyone one of these stories turns out to be a model 727 or a property marked M4 lower that was rebuilt with a 727 upper, or some type of colt prototype.

I have uppers in my personal collection that were from the first month of M4 and M4A1 production and they have C AF gray flattop uppers.

I think people remembering the CAR just say the first “M4s” had fixed handles. I’ve never seen one and never heard of this until I joined this site. I was a BDE HHC XO in 1998 when the 101st received our M4 and they were normal M4s.

Split66
08-07-12, 11:31
The story of the several thousand M4 marked weapons with A2 uppers delivered in 1994 is mentioned and perpetuated in many places, but until I see one I agree with Scotty. It's a unicorn....pony....:confused:

fowler
08-09-12, 19:40
I have completed the 727 A2 clone with a 16" M4 profile barrel with FN A2 upper,Colt inners and bolt in a Double-Star lower with a Fiberight stock. Handy light accurate carbine with peeps.

Todd00000
08-10-12, 05:41
I have completed the 727 A2 clone with a 16" M4 profile barrel with FN A2 upper,Colt inners and bolt in a Double-Star lower with a Fiberight stock. Handy light accurate carbine with peeps.

Well take a pic please.

BRAAIJR
08-10-12, 10:33
They Do I have seen Comercial Guns In DOS Armories Marked M4/M16A2! The Serial Number Series Started with an A!

fowler
08-13-12, 16:18
FN A2 upper,mil-spec car15 stock fiberight N stamped,16" M4 chrome bore A2 hider,Colt small parts on Double-Star lower. OD green sling. Navy converted 727 in stock to M4, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006smallarms/gaskill.pdf

Horned Toad
10-01-12, 16:56
A retro I am working on is going to have a A2 upper with 16" M4 profile barrel. Seems these are middle ground carbines between the Xm-GAU types of the beginning to the current M4 models. I like the A2 upper with peep sites. I found some Colt 727 pictures,but not any good U.S. information on use in service or dates.

M4 barrel profile or M4 marked.
I carried Colt with a Car-15 roll marks for a while. full auto,A2 upper, 14.5 M4 barrel sn was in the 802xxxx range. We got 14.5 inch M4 marked Colts in late 94.

peabody
10-06-12, 08:16
i have an A2 upper with an M4 16" barrel on it.
i dont know who made it..no markings on the upper.
barrel i believe ..is a bushmaster.
picked it up at a gun show.
it shoots good.

kaltesherz
10-06-12, 09:05
i have an A2 upper with an M4 16" barrel on it.
i dont know who made it..no markings on the upper.
barrel i believe ..is a bushmaster.
picked it up at a gun show.
it shoots good.

That has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about, we're talking about factory marked Colt M4 (14.5" with safe-fire-burst), not your hobby gun.

peabody
10-06-12, 09:42
wooooo !!!!

Robb Jensen
10-06-12, 10:10
Early M4 in USMC hands...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/12B063CF-DC3F-4B30-B99F-0CF0C051B178-170-0000000B3E1274C1.jpg

Horned Toad
10-07-12, 18:03
Finally found the one old photo I have. Its crappy, it’s a scan of a pic that was taken with the old disposable Kodak cameras. If it wasn’t for point and shoot digitals I would be taking any pictures today.

Colt
It was either marked as an AR-15 or a Car 15
802xxxx
Metal collapsible stock
Full auto
Had the M203 notch on the barrel.
I can’t remember the brand of the suppressor but it was nice
Aimpoint 3000 on an ARMS mount

These were around for quite awhile, RRD, FOs, Officers medics and IIRC some commo guys had them.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm48/azhtrgr/ar15.jpg

fowler
10-08-12, 11:05
Horned Toad nice vintage photo, I bet she shot nice. That old school can look's bigger than todays.

kaltesherz
10-08-12, 11:42
Ditto, great photo, not only do I dig the John Holmes of suppressors but the old school Aimpoint that's almost just as long...

ETA- Robbs USMC photo is also a great find, many thanks

sinister
10-08-12, 13:53
The XM4 was standardized in 1993 with the first buys by USSOCOM in FY93 for delivery starting in 1994.

Fleet fielding was for the full-auto M4A1 for USSOCOM in toto replacing the M16A2.

The M4 with fixed carry handle and burst was to be fielded for the conventional Army under the Department of the Army Master Planning List (DAMPL) to the 82nd, 101st, and 10th Mountain, as well as for select duty positions (platoon leaders; radio operators; vehicle drivers; and armor vehicle crewmen, replacing the M3 Grease Gun). Description of the two basic carbines is reflected in the basic ground M16/M4 operator's manual, TM 9-1005-319-10 with change 3, 1 May 1994. The Leg Army did not have a modular weapon system program on the books while SOCOM's SOPMOD was established.

Once the Army decided it wanted a lot of the items in the SOPMOD kit the M4 was modified and certified with a flat-top while the burst mechanism remained the same.

The flat-top M16A4 was not adopted until 2004 -- up until then all optics technically should have been on top of the carrying handle or on the cantilever "Goose neck" mount.

fowler
10-08-12, 16:17
That set up was modern compared to the old Mac-10 powderspring .45 that Socom used on the border war's in S.E. Asia with the xm177's. Some fellers in op's still prefer the old full auto selecter over the M4 3 rd burst set up. Anyway that is a lot of good info being brought to light about the early M4 days.

USAFCATM
10-08-12, 18:15
While not strictly "M4" in regards to stamps and such, the USAF has had a love affair with carbines for many years. One poster mentioned a "Goo" or frankenstien but this is what is officially known at a GUU-5/P. However, what makes up a guppy (there's another term for ya! :dance3: ) is really loose as to what parts are used.
For example, when I was at Hurlburt Field, my "issue" GUU-5/P (not officially issued as it was a training rifle but I was the only one to use it to shoot the TRQC qualification on auto and still get a qualifying score to show the straight-legs who went UQ that this course is still pretty easy even if you have an "ancient" GUU firing on auto) was a 14.5" M4 barrel on an A2 upper, A1 lower, A2 pistol grip, thin single heatshield handguards and a plastic non-M4 style buttstock. I loved that little rifle and my personal clone is identical to it other than the 16" barrel and no "go fast" parts. Now out here at Camp Guernsey, my GUU-5/P we use for OPFOR weapons is a bit different. Mine is a lightweight 14.5" barrel, slim handguards, slickside M-16 upper (a 604 series), M-16 lower, A1 pistol grip and metal buttstock. Other variations I've seen of the guppy are slick side or partial fence lowers, A1 uppers with forward assist, Knights rail system handguards and butstocks that can be metal, plastic or M4 style. Doesn't matter as long as they are classified as a carbine style with a 1:7 barrel, full auto, and have a carrying handle. It just all depends on what was lying around when orders came down to convert the old XM-177 style carbines, AR-15 and M-16 rifles over. One thing I can say I have NOT seen was a guppy with an A2 lower. The A2 is still in active service in the USAF so anything with an M-16A2 stamped on the lower isn't going to be converted into a guppy.
Now was there ever an M4 stamped carbine lower with an A2 upper, I don't know. I haven't seen one but as far as the OP's desire to build an M4 with an A2 upper, I'd say go for it and you can call it a GUU-5/P, Goo or Guppy instead. :smile:

jesuvuah
10-08-12, 18:37
Never seen a real one. I did own a mforgery that was an a2. Did not like not having a flat top at all.

scottryan
10-08-12, 20:29
Early M4 in USMC hands...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/12B063CF-DC3F-4B30-B99F-0CF0C051B178-170-0000000B3E1274C1.jpg


How do you know those aren't 727s?

scottryan
10-08-12, 20:31
The flat-top M16A4 was not adopted until 2004 -- up until then all optics technically should have been on top of the carrying handle or on the cantilever "Goose neck" mount.


M16A4s go back to the late 1990s

There are Colt property marked M16A4s that use the old style A2 lower forging where the rear reinforcement tapers into the body of the lower, and they also use C AF forge code uppers. Both of these parts were done away with by 2001. Here is an example:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Early_Colt_M16A4_Part_1.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Early_Colt_M16A4_Part_2.jpg

Also note the use of the peal washer behind the flash hider.

scottryan
10-08-12, 20:34
The M4 with fixed carry handle and burst was to be fielded for the conventional Army under the Department of the Army Master Planning List (DAMPL) to the 82nd, 101st, and 10th Mountain, as well as for select duty positions (platoon leaders; radio operators; vehicle drivers; and armor vehicle crewmen, replacing the M3 Grease Gun). Description of the two basic carbines is reflected in the basic ground M16/M4 operator's manual, TM 9-1005-319-10 with change 3, 1 May 1994. The Leg Army did not have a modular weapon system program on the books while SOCOM's SOPMOD was established.




This document has been scrutinized on a similar thread on AR15.com retro forum and it was concluded, while this statement in the document is actually in print, that flattop M4 were probably actually used instead of fixed handles, due to the dates of the document and the timing of the release of the rifles. The description was never changed to match.

Robb Jensen
10-08-12, 23:00
How do you know those aren't 727s?

Could be or could be A2 upper'd XM4s like all the ones I shot at Quantico in the late 80s when my dad worked at Firepower Division for Maj. Jack Muth and Lt Col Dave Lutz. Did the USMC buy 727s?

Magic_Salad0892
10-09-12, 03:32
Could be or could be A2 upper'd XM4s like all the ones I shot at Quantico in the late 80s when my dad worked at Firepower Division for Maj. Jack Muth and Lt Col Dave Lutz. Did the USMC buy 727s?

Your dad worked for Dave Lutz?

That's gnarly.

fowler
10-09-12, 05:14
http://www.retroblackrifle.com/ Now here is a can of worms.

FLHXSG
10-09-12, 16:56
i was searching and found this article on m4 w a2 uppers

http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/bushmaster_m4.htm

DMR
10-10-12, 09:42
The M4 with fixed carry handle and burst was to be fielded for the conventional Army under the Department of the Army Master Planning List (DAMPL) to the 82nd, 101st, and 10th Mountain, as well as for select duty positions (platoon leaders; radio operators; vehicle drivers; and armor vehicle crewmen, replacing the M3 Grease Gun).

I was at West Point between assignments when 10th MTN recieved our M-4's. I they came in 99-00. They were apparently to go to support troops in the division, but the DCSM and CG (per the story) diverted them to the Infantry Bn's. They were all flat tops, with detachable A2 style handles.

As I understand it 18th ABN Corps did a Force Mod purchase to put M-4 rails on all of the M-4s in the three divsions, along with Comp M Aimpoints, and Insight VLI's (White Lights). I returned to division in Jan, 2001 and that is how our rifles were configured. M-203s were also mod'ed to what later became the M-203A2 version. We had alot of issues with the Comp M's batteries in cold weather and issues with the dot washing out in clear days shooting in the snow. The VLI's sucked, and I don't believe were ever offered on the commercial market. I talked several times with Chris at Insight about them, and recall something to the effect of the .mil spec's for use of AA batteries where one if the sources of our problems.

We had to tote the carry handles in our A-Packs as BUIS, some units made you mount them on the rails:mad: By the time the war started we started to recieve Comp M2's which solved our issues with the Aimpoints, and 2/10 had supplemented their VLI's with a local purchase I concocted for Surefire G-2's in a rail mount.

Glynn863
10-10-12, 22:53
I recently acquired an Armalite upper assembly with 14.5" M4 profile barrel and A2 upper receiver. The seller said it was a LE take-off. I don't know if this fits your bill because it's not .MIL/.GOV, but it's what I have. The rear sight is 6/3 and has M4 cuts. I plan on pinning it to 16". Here is a so-so pic I got from the seller:

juan69
10-25-12, 05:45
hope this pics will help

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk9/divingjp/b305ddd6.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk9/divingjp/IMG_5991.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk9/divingjp/IMG_5992-1.jpg

coldblue
12-23-12, 08:14
Got any proof of that?


http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/XM4USMC_zpsdfe5c9ff.jpg

This is one of several XM-4's we tested at Quantico (USMC) in the late 1980 to replace the .45 Cal. M3 "Grease Guns."
In fact "M4" was our nomenclature not Colt's. The M4 being sequential to the M3 submachine gun. That is also what drove the 14.5" barrel because we wanted the ability to mount the bayonet.
The M4 was intended to be a full-auto repalcement in RECON for the M3 A1 sub-machine gun. This basic configuration proved so popular that the 14.5" carbine took on a life of its own.
Our M4 submachine gun program was well supported by the RECON commmunity, but as the requirement was staffed through out the USMC, too many strap-hangers jumped onto the fielding plan and the program grew to a size that required Congressional review. It was subsequently deleted from our budget three years in a row.

scottryan
12-23-12, 09:14
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/XM4USMC_zpsdfe5c9ff.jpg

This is one of several XM-4's we tested at Quantico (USMC) in the late 1980 to replace the .45 Cal. M3 "Grease Guns."
In fact "M4" was our nomenclature not Colt's. The M4 being sequential to the M3 submachine gun. That is also what drove the 14.5" barrel because we wanted the ability to mount the bayonet.
The M4 was intended to be a full-auto repalcement in RECON for the M3 A1 sub-machine gun. This basic configuration proved so popular that the 14.5" carbine took on a life of its own.
Our M4 submachine gun program was well supported by the RECON commmunity, but as the requirement was staffed through out the USMC, too many strap-hangers jumped onto the fielding plan and the program grew to a size that required Congressional review. It was subsequently deleted from our budget three years in a row.


That isn't the proof I am looking for. I already know about those.

kaltesherz
12-23-12, 10:58
This is one of several XM-4's we tested at Quantico (USMC) in the late 1980 to replace the .45 Cal. M3 "Grease Guns."
In fact "M4" was our nomenclature not Colt's. The M4 being sequential to the M3 submachine gun. That is also what drove the 14.5" barrel because we wanted the ability to mount the bayonet.
The M4 was intended to be a full-auto repalcement in RECON for the M3 A1 sub-machine gun. This basic configuration proved so popular that the 14.5" carbine took on a life of its own.
Our M4 submachine gun program was well supported by the RECON commmunity, but as the requirement was staffed through out the USMC, too many strap-hangers jumped onto the fielding plan and the program grew to a size that required Congressional review. It was subsequently deleted from our budget three years in a row.

Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware M4 came from the M3 Submachine gun- I thought it was to follow the M3 Carbine

arjohnson
12-23-12, 12:00
I had a Colt M4 A2 complete upper years ago, it was marked C AF with a 14.5" M4 barrel, M4 stamped above gas tube, grey color and no F marked FSB. Purchased new and I can't recall from what company and was told that it was a factory assembled upper never issued, and it looked to be. I wish I had a pic:mad:.

sinister
12-23-12, 13:01
That isn't the proof I am looking for. I already know about those.

So then why not write directly to Colt, or submit a Freedom of Information request to the Army?

scottryan
12-23-12, 14:43
I had a Colt M4 A2 complete upper years ago, it was marked C AF with a 14.5" M4 barrel, M4 stamped above gas tube, grey color and no F marked FSB. Purchased new and I can't recall from what company and was told that it was a factory assembled upper never issued, and it looked to be. I wish I had a pic:mad:.



That is from a run of 727s from 1996 to 1998.

coldblue
12-23-12, 15:34
Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware M4 came from the M3 Submachine gun- I thought it was to follow the M3 Carbine

The Marine Corps M4 program got ahead of Army efforts because we went with A2 uppers that were already in our supply system; while the Army was trying to develop/standardize on the flat-top effort.
Then our cold weather testing led to the requirement for the Ramp Angle Change to improve reliability which inadvertently made the ramped M4 upper not compatible with the rifle barrels in the system.
Then the three years of trying to get them in the budget (which all failed as I discussed above) allowed the Army effort to catch up and overpower the whole thing.
I remember Master Gunnery Seargeant Nicoliasion being in charge of the Marine M4 Manuals as they were pretty much completed. I'd like to find one of those...
As when he submitted it to HQ, they (the bean counters)discovered the "Throw Away the white glooves" page which originated in the A2 Rifle Manual I wrote in 1983. They left that page "blank" in subsequent editions.

arjohnson
12-23-12, 15:43
That is from a run of 727s from 1996 to 1998.

Thanks, and if I recall correctly the barrel was dated 96 but not sure of the month.

joe scuba
02-16-13, 16:50
Finally found the one old photo I have. Its crappy, it’s a scan of a pic that was taken with the old disposable Kodak cameras. If it wasn’t for point and shoot digitals I would be taking any pictures today.

Colt
It was either marked as an AR-15 or a Car 15
802xxxx
Metal collapsible stock
Full auto
Had the M203 notch on the barrel.

These were around for quite awhile, RRD, FOs, Officers medics and IIRC some commo guys had them.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm48/azhtrgr/ar15.jpg

I can’t remember the brand of the suppressor but it was nice
Aimpoint 3000 on an ARMS mount.


That appears to be an Ops Inc suppressor, they were in use during the 90s. I mostly saw them on Colt 733s that were issued with a Hensoldt Beta Lighted scope or an Aimpoint.

joe scuba
02-16-13, 17:19
[QUOTE=coldblue;1478979]http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/D_A_Lutz/XM4USMC_zpsdfe5c9ff.jpg


I was issued a carbine with that same XM4 roll mark in 1993. The receivers were gray. It had single heat shield hand guards. I had the same weapon until late 1999. My unit also had a few Colt commercial 727 that were C.O.T. purchases.

deerndove14
03-23-13, 17:32
I've seen a few a2 carbines but those were few and far between

squid8286
05-30-13, 11:24
I bought a Colt 14.5" M4 upper off a guy over at AR15.com a year or two ago. It is an A2. It is a much lighter gray than most ARs you see. The forge mark on the upper is MB (Mueller Brass.) I was pretty sure it was an older military M4 upper. It has all the Colt marks in the correct spots, and the barrel is dated '93. It is in storage at the moment. I was going to pin a Phantom on it, and use it. Is this thing worth something as some sort of curiosity to sell, or should I just use it?

kaltesherz
05-30-13, 11:32
I bought a Colt 14.5" M4 upper off a guy over at AR15.com a year or two ago. It is an A2. It is a much lighter gray than most ARs you see. The forge mark is Mueller Brass. I was pretty sure it was an older military M4 upper. It has all the Colt marks in the correct spots, and the barrel is dated '93. It is in storage at the moment. I was going to pin a Phantom on it, and use it. Is this thing worth something as some sort of curiosity, or should I just use it?

Sounds like a 727, we're just trying to find actually M4's with fixed carrying handles, which are basically a 727 but marked "M4"

squid8286
05-30-13, 11:48
Sounds like a 727, we're just trying to find actually M4's with fixed carrying handles, which are basically a 727 but marked "M4"

Thanks for the info. Y'all had my hopes up; thought I had something rare!

kaltesherz
05-30-13, 11:50
Thanks for the info. Y'all had my hopes up; thought I had something rare!

Oh it's still rare, and collectible- I'm sure someone will chime in on it's value eventually...

squid8286
05-30-13, 11:57
Oh it's still rare, and collectible- I'm sure someone will chime in on it's value eventually...

Good to know. I appreciate it.

5POINT56
05-30-13, 15:57
That's a removable carrying handle- not what we're talking about at all

Then someone ought to tell the fella running his EO on the carry handle that <pssst!> its removeable.

scottryan
05-30-13, 19:23
The pics coldblue posted are the closest we have seen, but were already known to me.

jaygee
10-01-13, 16:50
All of this raises the question....Who gets to decide what is an "M4"? The US Military, Colt, or folks like us? I'm sure the XM4 in TBR was not an "XM4" until Uncle got interested in it. FWIW, I have a Colt A2 upper with ramps cut in before anodizing, and marked with a "4" above the gas tube entry star. Finish is black, not gray/green or Sandstrom 9. Does this prove anything? No, but I'm sure that my upper, which showed up on a 6520LE, is not the only one around.

jtb0311
10-02-13, 02:16
All of this raises the question....Who gets to decide what is an "M4"? The US Military, Colt, or folks like us? I'm sure the XM4 in TBR was not an "XM4" until Uncle got interested in it. FWIW, I have a Colt A2 upper with ramps cut in before anodizing, and marked with a "4" above the gas tube entry star. Finish is black, not gray/green or Sandstrom 9. Does this prove anything? No, but I'm sure that my upper, which showed up on a 6520LE, is not the only one around.

Folks like us can no more decide to designate whatever we want as an M4 than we could designate a Garand an XM-1936-08 or whatever. Or we could, but it would be absolutely meaningless.

I spent a fair amount of time in Afghanistan from 2004-2011, and I think I saw every configuration of the AR platform ever issued. Slab side lowers/partial fence lowers and any 11.5 or 14.5 barrel configuration you can think of, flat top, A1, and A2. Every single one of these was in the hands of U.S. Government personnel.

Break free from the bonds of the M4 label!

kaltesherz
11-19-14, 17:30
I finally checked out the new Infantry Museum at Benning. They no longer have M4 SN # 0001 on display (with the fixed carry handle and a high gloss finish), but they did have this XM4.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/kaltesherz/xm41_zps052885d2.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/kaltesherz/media/xm41_zps052885d2.jpg.html)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/kaltesherz/xm4_zps5e202ffa.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/kaltesherz/media/xm4_zps5e202ffa.jpg.html)

markm
11-20-14, 07:21
I spent a fair amount of time in Afghanistan from 2004-2011, and I think I saw every configuration of the AR platform ever issued. Slab side lowers/partial fence lowers and any 11.5 or 14.5 barrel configuration you can think of, flat top, A1, and A2. Every single one of these was in the hands of U.S. Government personnel.

Break free from the bonds of the M4 label!

THANK YOU! The designation fixation crap is completely idiotic.

Iraqgunz
11-21-14, 02:17
Thanks for posting that. I want to go there the next time I am in Georgia.


I finally checked out the new Infantry Museum at Benning. They no longer have M4 SN # 0001 on display (with the fixed carry handle and a high gloss finish), but they did have this XM4.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/kaltesherz/xm41_zps052885d2.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/kaltesherz/media/xm41_zps052885d2.jpg.html)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/kaltesherz/xm4_zps5e202ffa.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/kaltesherz/media/xm4_zps5e202ffa.jpg.html)

danieljmaunder
11-25-14, 12:48
A buddy of mine in the Marine Corps Reserve ended up with one in his early enlistment ( Around 2004 ) Before they really started upgrading the equipment that the reserves got.