View Full Version : Reality Check: Sage M14 at 1000m
decodeddiesel
07-29-12, 00:12
Heard a real whopper at the local fun store, wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy.
It all started when I asked to see a SCAR 17S and as the fellow behind the counter handed it to me he threw in an unsolicited "that thing is a piece of shit, and an LRB M14 is way better for the money".
I told him that I had time on an M14 in the Army, and as an NRA High-Power shooter in high school, and that I really thought they were too dated and a dinosaur from what I had seen. I told him the Sage EBR M14 I had in 2005 was not that accurate, heavy as hell, and had reliability problems. He looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead. He then said "Who were you with? What year? What were your AOs?" etc. try to somehow invalidate everything I said. He then claimed that any decent long distance shooter should be able to make repeated hits on a 1/2 size IDPA target at 1000 yards with a rack grade M14 in a Sage EBR with a Leupold M3.
When I mentioned that the longest distance training I had with the weapon was at 800 meters, and even at that range it was damn hard to make hits, this served to incense him further. He then once again questioned me to my face about being a veteran, since clearly I was not familiar with the unmatched awesomeness of the Sage M14. To this I set the 1000 rounds of 5.56 ammo I was planning to buy on the counter and walked out, with him chuckling about it with his buddies and saying "no way he served, dumbass".
Lesson learned, I have spent thousands of dollars at that store, however I will not spend a cent in the future. It really went to hell in the past 3 or 4 years.
Still though, rack grade 1960s surplus M14, stock everything, Sage EBR stock, Leupold M3, accurate to 1000 yards? No f'ing way.
ETA: One other thing that he mentioned was that he was "in" from 1994 - 1997 and that he had "trigger time" on an M14. Who, aside from the Coast Guard and the Navy, was using the M14 to such an extent that an E1 - E4 would have been using it during this time period? My bullshit alarm was going off like crazy when he mentioned that.
wild_wild_wes
07-29-12, 00:27
I once shot on a 1,000 yard Tactical rifle match. When I was pulling butts, the two guys who were shooting at the target I was scoring, and the one next to me, both had M-14s, and their hits started to get wild at 700. One of them was not allowed to go to 800, and the one who did, his rounds were hitting the dirt mostly, and the ones that hit paper were often passing through sideways. So he didn't even get to 900.
decodeddiesel
07-29-12, 00:49
We had pop-up ivans when I was shooting them, so I didn't get a chance to see the bullet holes. I could however see that hitting one of those damn things 800m away with an M14 was a damn trick. I am not one of those people who think 308 somehow stops at 800 yards, I mean I have made shots at that kind of range with an M24 and I have seen shooters make 1000 yard hits with semi-auto 308s before too...just not an M14.
goodoleboy
07-29-12, 07:47
Is the M-14 platform capable of making hits at that distance? Yes. Is a RACK GRADE M14 capable of making consistent hits at that distance, not really.
My father was on the 4th Infantry Division Rifle Team from 1964-1966, shot in the All Army Matches, etc. and they used the M-14 in all their competitions, including their 1000 yard matches. He actually has a trophy from the 1966 Texas State Matches where he won the 1000 yard competition with a heavilly modified M-14.
I would be highly skeptical of someone who told me they took a surplus M-14 and made consistent hits at that distance, especially without a spotter.
Reagans Rascals
07-29-12, 08:22
I don't understand.... why would he shit talk a product that he himself carries and might have a possible sale on... unless he had an LRB M1A sitting right there, and was hoping to make an upsale to a more expensive weapon... I don't understand why he would open his mouth.. do people not have common sense these days?
You don't walk up to a guy looking to buy a new truck and say "oh man that thing's a piece of shit... yeah you'd be better off with that old 1974 farm truck in the back..."
actually **** yourself out of a possible sale...
he is his own blue falcon...
I'm going to start calling that entire type of just uninhibited, unsolicited bullshit gun store talk.... G.S.A..... Gun Store Asperger's
ICANHITHIMMAN
07-29-12, 08:30
I don't understand.... why would he shit talk a product that he himself carries and might have a possible sale on... unless he had an LRB M1A sitting right there, and was hoping to make an upsale to a more expensive weapon... I don't understand why he would open his mouth.. do people not have common sense these days?
You don't walk up to a guy looking to buy a new truck and say "oh man that thing's a piece of shit... yeah you'd be better off with that old 1974 farm truck in the back..."
actually **** yourself out of a possible sale...
he is his own blue falcon...
I'm going to start calling that entire type of just uninhibited, unsolicited bullshit gun store talk.... G.S.A..... Gun Store Asperger's
That's what I wAs going to say. I love my time with the rifle but rack grade is luck of the draw. If u get a consistent shooter even if it's a 2 moa gun hits are possable. But that guy was a boner face all the way.
I used a scoped M14 in the AF around 94-95. it was an EOD weapon they used for stand off detonations or something. had a redfield scope on it and they got some M118LR to go with it.
IMO your assessment of the m14 is correct. I just got rid of a very very nice one that was well set up, and while I certainly was fond of it and loved the way and how it shot, it was limited by it's design and now more so by parts cost and availability. it's an old system and relegated to those hangers-on and folks who are emotionally attached to it. When something better came out I broke my attachment to it and moved on.
I don't understand.... why would he shit talk a product that he himself carries and might have a possible sale on... unless he had an LRB M1A sitting right there, and was hoping to make an upsale to a more expensive weapon... I don't understand why he would open his mouth.. do people not have common sense these days?
You don't walk up to a guy looking to buy a new truck and say "oh man that thing's a piece of shit... yeah you'd be better off with that old 1974 farm truck in the back..."
actually **** yourself out of a possible sale...
he is his own blue falcon...
I'm going to start calling that entire type of just uninhibited, unsolicited bullshit gun store talk.... G.S.A..... Gun Store Asperger's
This is more common than you might think. About 2 years ago the son of a friend of mine wanted to get into AR's, and loved my SR-15. We went to one of the better local shops that carried them, said we wanted to see it and the sales guy promptly told us that the olympic on the wall for $800 was all the gun we would ever need, and then proceeded to rather aggressively tell me how staked gas keys were not needed and the kac offered nothing over the olympic. Needless to say we ended up buying elsewhere.
Reagans Rascals
07-29-12, 11:56
I think these kinds of workers need to be brought to the attention of the management or owners.... I highly doubt they'd appreciate their sales force basically ****ing the company out of money and giving bullshit advice.... unless it is the management and/or owners do it... in that case I'd promptly ask who's dick they sucked to get an FFL and excuse myself....
I can understand trying to sell what you have on the shelf if the customer comes in and asks to see something you don't have... like say you have a COLT on the shelf and the customer asks to see if you have any Knights in stock.... yeah then I could see saying well you'd be better off just getting this COLT we have in stock because its just as good and blah blah blah... because you are trying to persuade them to make a purchase with what you have and not go else where....
but how the **** do you run your mouth to persuade someone AGAINST making an expensive purchase for what you do have in stock???
Unless there is more of a profit margin on their shittier guns so they are trying to persuade you into a money maker for them...
either way these people need to take a ****in sales class or work a ****in job in retail somewhere where they can actually learn strategies... just my .50
Heavy Metal
07-29-12, 12:10
Heard a real whopper at the local fun store, wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy.
It all started when I asked to see a SCAR 17S and as the fellow behind the counter handed it to me he threw in an unsolicited "that thing is a piece of shit, and an LRB M14 is way better for the money".
I told him that I had time on an M14 in the Army, and as an NRA High-Power shooter in high school, and that I really thought they were too dated and a dinosaur from what I had seen. I told him the Sage EBR M14 I had in 2005 was not that accurate, heavy as hell, and had reliability problems. He looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead. He then said "Who were you with? What year? What were your AOs?" etc. try to somehow invalidate everything I said. He then claimed that any decent long distance shooter should be able to make repeated hits on a 1/2 size IDPA target at 1000 yards with a rack grade M14 in a Sage EBR with a Leupold M3.
When I mentioned that the longest distance training I had with the weapon was at 800 meters, and even at that range it was damn hard to make hits, this served to incense him further. He then once again questioned me to my face about being a veteran, since clearly I was not familiar with the unmatched awesomeness of the Sage M14. To this I set the 1000 rounds of 5.56 ammo I was planning to buy on the counter and walked out, with him chuckling about it with his buddies and saying "no way he served, dumbass".
Lesson learned, I have spent thousands of dollars at that store, however I will not spend a cent in the future. It really went to hell in the past 3 or 4 years.
Still though, rack grade 1960s surplus M14, stock everything, Sage EBR stock, Leupold M3, accurate to 1000 yards? No f'ing way.
ETA: One other thing that he mentioned was that he was "in" from 1994 - 1997 and that he had "trigger time" on an M14. Who, aside from the Coast Guard and the Navy, was using the M14 to such an extent that an E1 - E4 would have been using it during this time period? My bullshit alarm was going off like crazy when he mentioned that.
Rifle team shooter.
That said, anyone who has that kind of faith in a rack-grade M-14 is a dildo.
Asshats know no end to their douchbaggery. I never cease to be amazed at the level of utter crap I hear in gun shop.
Now for some actual 'I saw it' action. I was shooting a high power match and was squaded with an older guy with an M1A. The barrel and gas system assembly was good, but it was sitting in an unbeaded stock. From 600 yards the shooter was either inside the 9 ring, or off the paper because the rifle was shifting in the stock with each shot.
The guy was full of shit and I would have personally brought his ass to the attention of the ownership. I then would have told him that you have spent xxx money in the past and thanks to Mr. Dumbass you will be spending it elsewhere. If they are happy, so be it.
Even in the USCG the M14 saw very limited if any service. We relied heavily upon the M16 (limited M4's), M60's/M240's and the M2 .50 cal. As a matter of fact almost all CG vessels above 87' are armed with the M2.
ClearedHot
07-29-12, 17:20
Sounds like your typical gun store commando. I bet he'll also tell you the Desert Eagle is the best pistol ever made.
decodeddiesel
07-30-12, 01:23
Sounds like your typical gun store commando. I bet he'll also tell you the Desert Eagle is the best pistol ever made.
Seeing how he was proudly displaying his XDM in a drop leg holster I wouldn't doubt it.
RogerinTPA
07-30-12, 07:33
Heard a real whopper at the local fun store, wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy.
It all started when I asked to see a SCAR 17S and as the fellow behind the counter handed it to me he threw in an unsolicited "that thing is a piece of shit, and an LRB M14 is way better for the money".
I told him that I had time on an M14 in the Army, and as an NRA High-Power shooter in high school, and that I really thought they were too dated and a dinosaur from what I had seen. I told him the Sage EBR M14 I had in 2005 was not that accurate, heavy as hell, and had reliability problems. He looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead.He then said "Who were you with? What year? What were your AOs?" etc. try to somehow invalidate everything I said. He then claimed that any decent long distance shooter should be able to make repeated hits on a 1/2 size IDPA target at 1000 yards with a rack grade M14 in a Sage EBR with a Leupold M3.
Sounds like a total poser douche bag to me. As far as today's rack grade M14s, it is totally hit or miss, depending on the manufacturer. Maybe 10 to 15 years ago, a rack grade could make reliable hits out to 500 to 600 yards, but not to any acceptable degree of accuracy without the addition of accurate add-on's (good scope, ammo, sling) & of course, the skill of the shooter. I was able to consistently get good hits (9s, 10s and Xs) back in the day using iron sights out to 1000m, because I had many years as both a small and large bore shooter, and my assigned weapon had match grade everything on it, using match ammo, and was purposely built by the Army's USAMU. I purchased a close copy of what I used from Springfield Armory in the early 80's to use for personal practice and hunting. Now that was a damn fine rifle. Not so much today. Too many issues across the board by manufacturers, including finding any quality spare parts. The M-14/M1A day, in any of it's current variations, is well past it's prime, as far as using it as a precision weapon. As many of us know, there are way too many better alternatives out there.
When I mentioned that the longest distance training I had with the weapon was at 800 meters, and even at that range it was damn hard to make hits, this served to incense him further. He then once again questioned me to my face about being a veteran, since clearly I was not familiar with the unmatched awesomeness of the Sage M14. To this I set the 1000 rounds of 5.56 ammo I was planning to buy on the counter and walked out, with him chuckling about it with his buddies and saying "no way he served, dumbass".
Lesson learned, I have spent thousands of dollars at that store, however I will not spend a cent in the future. It really went to hell in the past 3 or 4 years.
Still though, rack grade 1960s surplus M14, stock everything, Sage EBR stock, Leupold M3, accurate to 1000 yards? No f'ing way.
ETA: One other thing that he mentioned was that he was "in" from 1994 - 1997 and that he had "trigger time" on an M14. Who, aside from the Coast Guard and the Navy, was using the M14 to such an extent that an E1 - E4 would have been using it during this time period? My bullshit alarm was going off like crazy when he mentioned that.
He's completely delusional. He was probably some rear echelon support wienie trying to "fluff up" his career via that gun store. I can't stand these self licking ice cream cone, sprinkled with BS types. I wouldn't deal with that D-Bag again, but I'd certainly give the owner an ear full.
Littlelebowski
07-30-12, 07:40
Pat Rogers said that rack grade M14s are 3-6 MOA guns. Let us know what shop this is so that we can avoid it.
^ This. I remember reading that the acceptance standard for the M14 when issued was 6 MOA from the manufacturer. It was not intended to be a precision weapon. Even today when surplus M14s are used as precision weapons, you either forego a bedded action or you lose the ability to take the weapon down for cleaning/ maintenance. Ask the Jordanian SF...
diving dave
07-30-12, 11:45
I love gunshop guys, their comedy relief. When I was buying my scar16S, one of the guys tried telling me that I should buy a Ruger SR556 instead, cause "it's the same thing"...
you should print off this thread and drop it off to him... lol
Pat Rogers said that rack grade M14s are 3-6 MOA guns. Let us know what shop this is so that we can avoid it.
he would know. he told me he got his Distinguished Rifleman badge with an M14. doubt it was a rack-grade one though haha. even so, that's impressive, as my own experience with them is limited because i can't stand shooting them. they look nice, but i could never hit anything with them and they're an ergonomic trainwreck
decodeddiesel
07-30-12, 16:33
It was Jensen Arms in Loveland. The whole thing sucked, because it really used to be the best local shop back in the day.
It was Jensen Arms in Loveland.
Ha! No surprises there!
Ha! No surprises there!
What a shame. Every visit there in the past couple years have been downhill and disappointing.
decodeddiesel
07-31-12, 13:09
I guess it is a good thing as now I won't ever again waste the gas driving up there again. It's a shame that place blows so hard now, in the past I have purchased through them:
LMT 10.5" Upper
SPS Tactical .308
TA33 ACOG
T1 Micro
M&P 45
2x LRB AR-15 Lowers
Countless thousands of rounds of ammo
The won't see another penny of my money, and I will go out of my way to tell people about the experience I had.
Why dont you just call the shop and talk to the manager and let him know about the d-bag? Or was he the manager?
Alaskapopo
09-12-12, 12:11
Another reason why I buy as much online as I can and have it sent to a local dealer.
Pat
decodeddiesel
09-12-12, 22:23
Why dont you just call the shop and talk to the manager and let him know about the d-bag? Or was he the manager?
To be honest, given the 4 other employees on the other side of the counter nodding their heads along with the employee in question, the short bus syndrome has already spread like a virus. For all I care the whole place can eat shit and die.
Alaskapopo
09-12-12, 22:53
To be honest, given the 4 other employees on the other side of the counter nodding their heads along with the employee in question, the short bus syndrome has already spread like a virus. For all I care the whole place can eat shit and die.
I hate to say this but what do you expect from gun store employees. Generally they are making minimum wage and get most of their information from the gun magazines that are in the gun shop. I make it a point not to talk to them more than I have to if I need to get something. There are some exceptions to this rule but by and large you will be disappointed if you are looking for knowledgeable people behind the gun counter.
Pat
decodeddiesel
09-13-12, 01:01
I hate to say this but what do you expect from gun store employees. Generally they are making minimum wage and get most of their information from the gun magazines that are in the gun shop. I make it a point not to talk to them more than I have to if I need to get something. There are some exceptions to this rule but by and large you will be disappointed if you are looking for knowledgeable people behind the gun counter.
Pat
Very true Sir.
charmcitycop
09-13-12, 18:04
......
I hate to say this but what do you expect from gun store employees. Generally they are making minimum wage and get most of their information from the gun magazines that are in the gun shop. I make it a point not to talk to them more than I have to if I need to get something. There are some exceptions to this rule but by and large you will be disappointed if you are looking for knowledgeable people behind the gun counter.
Pat
The only thing I ask of a gun store is to try to get me exactly what I request. I had the pleasure of dealing with one in upstate SC that didn't try to push their brand 'x' competitor they had in stock whenever I would inquire about certain items. They also picked up on the fact that I had an AK itch that couldn't be scratched and they actually called me when people would trade in various AKM's. I ended up with a steal for a Romanian PSL. No BS, just sales and easy and reasonably priced transfers. Man do I miss that shop.
Good shops do exist.
ETA: One other thing that he mentioned was that he was "in" from 1994 - 1997 and that he had "trigger time" on an M14. Who, aside from the Coast Guard and the Navy, was using the M14 to such an extent that an E1 - E4 would have been using it during this time period? My bullshit alarm was going off like crazy when he mentioned that.
had a buddy in for panama, army, and he got his hands on a m14
It was Jensen Arms in Loveland. The whole thing sucked, because it really used to be the best local shop back in the day.
I live in Cheyenne and unfortunately these guys are the only ones who carry a decent selection of AR parts in the area. Customer service there is absolute shit. Ray from Thunderbeast (don't konw if he even works there anymore), or the real skinny dude in early mid 30s that always wears a ballcap are the only two in that store that I've talked to who seem like they know what they're talking about.
Problem with this store is that it sells to local LEO and could care less about the average shopper who walks in. I think it's absolute BS that they won't sell AR lowers/rifle to any out of state individual and its store policy, not CO state.
On a side note, talking to the managers/owner wouldn't do any good as I've heard from several people that Jensen's has been up for sale and the owner could care less.
Unless I need something immediately and know exactly what I want I won't shop there.
You did better than me. If some poser wannabe tried to question my service I would beat the **** out of him.
Alaskapopo
09-14-12, 16:17
You did better than me. If some poser wannabe tried to question my service I would beat the **** out of him.
I am sure it would be infurriating but its not worth going to jail for some douch behind the gun counter. Thanks for your service.
Pat
I know a few of them can be decently accurate. The company that my platoon was attached to for the first half of my second tour had the M14 DMRs. When we would shoot my M16A4 DMR was definitely more accurate but at least one of their M14s was at the most a 2 MOA gun.
Then again my battalion commander had just come over from a supply position and we got hooked up pretty good with match ammo. I was lucky enough to have a full box, 500 rounds, of M262 all to myself.
Also I have a friend here at home that was with one of the Stryker Brigades and had a tour in AFG a couple years back. He said one of his soldiers, friend is a squad leader, had a couple kills out past 500 meters with his M14. He told me he even put his guy in for a medal for a 800 meter shot against a guy with a RPG.
maddawg5777
09-21-12, 00:58
I hate all these window lickers that work in gun stores. I have a place on my shit list here in the springs that I wont mention for now. I was showing my mother a few handguns, she quite liked the m&p 9c and while discussing it with her the clerk told her to save money and buy a charter arms or Taurus cause its the "same thing". I about shit myself and told him to just stfu and pull guns out that I pointed at if he wanted to "do his job". Needless to say I don't spend any money there.
Back on topic, Ive never seen a rack grade shoot much better than 4 moa. That was at 300 yards, even the newer m1a's don't seem to do much better without any type of work done to them.
It was Jensen Arms in Loveland. The whole thing sucked, because it really used to be the best local shop back in the day.
Man, this is disappointing. I've bought quite a few guns from them over the years, since they've normally had the best prices and selection.
I've never had any issues with them myself, though I have heard plenty of bad reviews of customer service. To me, questioning a veteran's service goes beyond the pale though. They won't be seeing any more of my business.
caelumatra
09-25-12, 13:11
Is the M-14 platform capable of making hits at that distance? Yes. Is a RACK GRADE M14 capable of making consistent hits at that distance, not really.
My father was on the 4th Infantry Division Rifle Team from 1964-1966, shot in the All Army Matches, etc. and they used the M-14 in all their competitions, including their 1000 yard matches. He actually has a trophy from the 1966 Texas State Matches where he won the 1000 yard competition with a heavilly modified M-14.
I would be highly skeptical of someone who told me they took a surplus M-14 and made consistent hits at that distance, especially without a spotter.
I wonder if this had to do with Springfield changing hands in the 70. Your dad was shooting, albeit heavily modified as you said, an actual Springfield Armory weapon
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 13:12
I wonder if this had to do with Springfield changing hands in the 70. Your dad was shooting, albeit heavily modified as you said, an actual Springfield Armory weapon
It has everything to do with the design of the weapon, not the manufacturer.
Well I'll top your story with mine, I had a salesman at a gun shop tell me 556 won't penetrate brush at 300 yards that's why the army was moving to 6.8 by 2010. I just looked and said let's test the theory you sit in the bush and I'll fire and we'll definetly see who is righ and who's wrong. Needless to say he declined. He told me I had no concept because I never served I whipped out my ID and let him know I was a infantry PL and I could guarantee him that my experiences with the 556 says it would penetrate brush. He was embarrassed and coworker said don't pay attention he's just jealous because you we're a Ranger and got your sniper tab while you were in Korea. I just looked at him and he turned away I had to pull one of my Sgt.'s away because he actually was tabbed and served with the 75th back in the mid 90's needless to say we all told him he should keep his stories to himself.
Alaskapopo
10-30-12, 21:55
Well I'll top your story with mine, I had a salesman at a gun shop tell me 556 won't penetrate brush at 300 yards that's why the army was moving to 6.8 by 2010. I just looked and said let's test the theory you sit in the bush and I'll fire and we'll definetly see who is righ and who's wrong. Needless to say he declined. He told me I had no concept because I never served I whipped out my ID and let him know I was a infantry PL and I could guarantee him that my experiences with the 556 says it would penetrate brush. He was embarrassed and coworker said don't pay attention he's just jealous because you we're a Ranger and got your sniper tab while you were in Korea. I just looked at him and he turned away I had to pull one of my Sgt.'s away because he actually was tabbed and served with the 75th back in the mid 90's needless to say we all told him he should keep his stories to himself.
Brush does do bad things to bullets. I set a stage up a few matches back with the paper targets hidden in the brush and there were some mikes (misses) and bullets that hit the targets sideways due to hitting twigs and other brush in front of the targets.
Pat
So you would be comfortable hiding behind a bush if I'm firing at you with my m4? I don't think so. I understand what your saying but he tried to tell me that the 556 is not a effective round
Alaskapopo
10-31-12, 00:20
So you would be comfortable hiding behind a bush if I'm firing at you with my m4? I don't think so. I understand what your saying but he tried to tell me that the 556 is not a effective round
I did not say it was not effective in fact larger rounds are also affected by brush. Your right that guy was an idiot like most gun shop clerks unfortunately. No offense was meant. Just pointing out that brush has a negative impact on all bullets not just 5.56.
Pat
You know how everyone dogs on car salesman? Well most of them (many) own cars OTHER than what they are selling. There is little emotional attachment.
Fun store employees lust for and own some of (likely) the items they are selling, and there are HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS of firearms in a fun store. The misinformation and emotional bias runs rampant.
I did not say it was not effective in fact larger rounds are also affected by brush. Your right that guy was an idiot like most gun shop clerks unfortunately. No offense was meant. Just pointing out that brush has a negative impact on all bullets not just 5.56.
Pat
The tests I have seen show rounds with low velocity, high momentum, and flat, large meplats performing the best (i.e. .458 Barnes banded solid would rock compared to M80 ball).
The problem with brush is that it's so unpredictable. Trees and shrubs do not come in IWBA standard configuration, lol.
ETA: One other thing that he mentioned was that he was "in" from 1994 - 1997 and that he had "trigger time" on an M14. Who, aside from the Coast Guard and the Navy, was using the M14 to such an extent that an E1 - E4 would have been using it during this time period? My bullshit alarm was going off like crazy when he mentioned that.
I know that a few years ago it wasn't rare to see a Navy sentry standing around with one on a quarterdeck, but I would be willing to bet that none of them had fired them at any distance approaching 1,000 yards. CG had some too, but as IG said I never saw one used until the recent EBR type configurations.
Edit: Sorry, I missed the word "aside" in your statement.
You guys brought back a memory for me. I had just gotten out of the service. Year was 1988. Early on, I'd gotten to take the fun trip with the 82nd to the vacation island of Grenada, where I got my first military experience with the AK-47 and SKS. A good bit of it was after the fact, helping to destroy small arms caches, where we got the fun job of pulling a bunch of rifles down to ruin the op rods. Learned a lot about how those rifles were put together, their design and materials during that period.
Back to spring 1988. I was in a gun store in Orange County, NC, looking at a milled receiver and trigger guard Chinese made SKS and wanting an AK-47 like one I'd seen on the island, a milled steel receiver version, but the store didn't have any. A local police officer in the store at the same time let me know loudly and firmly that I didn't want one of those "piece of crap" SKS's and that I should be buying myself a Mini-14.
I walked over, looked at what the Mini-14 offered for the then $500.00 plus dollars (It appeared to me to be a badly done copy of an M14 in a 5.56MM caliber.), then walked right back over and bought the SKS with a 500 round can of stripper clipped steel core Chinese ammo and a can opener for $150.00 out the door. To this day, after all I've read on the internet, I have never regretted that decision.
The SKS turned out to average about 2.5" to 3" at 100 yards using that ammo and with me behind it. What a fun gun. (My Dad, an ex-Marine, taught me to shoot and I shot expert in the service the entire time with anything they put in my hands. I later shot High Power for a couple years, getting up to a consistent 500-525 score across the course using a tuned M1 Garand done for me by Hook Boutin. I'm not the best shot, but I don't embarrass myself.) I've read and heard lots of stories of inaccurate Mini-14's needing expensive tuning to get decent groups.
I think the lesson learned for me was milsurp guns are generally better made/more rugged than their civilian counter parts, because they are made for war.
That said, most older designs like the M14 are just about minute of man at 100 yards and no better unless heavily tuned. Few self-loading rifles, regardless of caliber, can reach out beyond 600 yards and hit with much accuracy. I think we're lucky to have the AR platform, which can do that without a lot of high tech work, though I think most out of the box AR rifles with the average shooter behind them can't come any where near MOA at 100. Staying in the x-ring takes real skill.
And finally, newer designs coming out generally beat older designs as they should learn from the mistakes of older designs to eliminate design mistakes and use materials not available to designers of the past.
Any time one's country gets too emotionally attached to a rifle design, one is subject to get one's rear shot off by another country who has come out with something better - see San Juan Hill and Little Big Horn for practical evidence of this.
You guys brought back a memory for me. I had just gotten out of the service. Year was 1988. Early on, I'd gotten to take the fun trip with the 82nd to the vacation island of Grenada, where I got my first military experience with the AK-47 and SKS. A good bit of it was after the fact, helping to destroy small arms caches, where we got the fun job of pulling a bunch of rifles down to ruin the op rods. Learned a lot about how those rifles were put together, their design and materials during that period.
Back to spring 1988. I was in a gun store in Orange County, NC, looking at a milled receiver and trigger guard Chinese made SKS and wanting an AK-47 like one I'd seen on the island, a milled steel receiver version, but the store didn't have any. A local police officer in the store at the same time let me know loudly and firmly that I didn't want one of those "piece of crap" SKS's and that I should be buying myself a Mini-14.
I walked over, looked at what the Mini-14 offered for the then $500.00 plus dollars (It appeared to me to be a badly done copy of an M14 in a 5.56MM caliber.), then walked right back over and bought the SKS with a 500 round can of stripper clipped steel core Chinese ammo and a can opener for $150.00 out the door. To this day, after all I've read on the internet, I have never regretted that decision.
The SKS turned out to average about 2.5" to 3" at 100 yards using that ammo and with me behind it. What a fun gun. (My Dad, an ex-Marine, taught me to shoot and I shot expert in the service the entire time with anything they put in my hands. I later shot High Power for a couple years, getting up to a consistent 500-525 score across the course using a tuned M1 Garand done for me by Hook Boutin. I'm not the best shot, but I don't embarrass myself.) I've read and heard lots of stories of inaccurate Mini-14's needing expensive tuning to get decent groups.
I think the lesson learned for me was milsurp guns are generally better made/more rugged than their civilian counter parts, because they are made for war.
That said, most older designs like the M14 are just about minute of man at 100 yards and no better unless heavily tuned. Few self-loading rifles, regardless of caliber, can reach out beyond 600 yards and hit with much accuracy. I think we're lucky to have the AR platform, which can do that without a lot of high tech work, though I think most out of the box AR rifles with the average shooter behind them can't come any where near MOA at 100. Staying in the x-ring takes real skill.
And finally, newer designs coming out generally beat older designs as they should learn from the mistakes of older designs to eliminate design mistakes and use materials not available to designers of the past.
Any time one's country gets too emotionally attached to a rifle design, one is subject to get one's rear shot off by another country who has come out with something better - see San Juan Hill and Little Big Horn for practical evidence of this.
You are right about mini 14's, I remember not being able to hit a soda can with one when I was maybe 10 years old and being able to do it with an old polytech my uncle had, which is pretty sad considering how much heavier and harder to shoot that AK was compared to the mini-14 especially at 10 years old.
I am sure it would be infurriating but its not worth going to jail for some douch behind the gun counter. Thanks for your service.
Pat
LOL:p Add to the end of this quote "...and watch your head" & this is what Pat would be saying to you right after he put the cuffs on you and was putting you in the back of his cruiser:p
Good advice Pat:)
Unfortunately nowa days expecting gun clerks to know about guns is like expecting McDonald's employees to know about the culinary arts.
domestique
12-14-12, 04:37
Sorry OP for having to deal with idiots, and thank you for your service.... I never take anything that gun store commandos say seriously.
Getting back on topic of the M14…. I agree that the modern 7.62x51 platforms (Larue OBR, KAC offerings, etc.) are MUCH better for size, weight, training (soldiers already being familiar with AR style rifles) etc. But I have had nothing but great results with 2 of my LRB arms M25 rifles (18.5" barrels). Now these are not “1960s rack grade” rifles: LRB arms forged receiver, integrated picatinny rail, medium contour barrel, Sage stock…. But neither have been bedded or match grade tuned.
I have one is a Sage Mod 1 stock, and one in a regular GI fiberglass stock, and both shoot sub MOA with match ammo (gold medal match 168 grain). I average 0.59-0.89 inch, five shot groups with both rifles. If I had to do it all over again I would go with a Larue OBR or similar rifle to make training with my other ARs more consistent, but I have way too many USGI magazines and other support parts stocked up for the M14 to make switching worthwhile. Not to mention shooting the M14 is just more fun to shoot than shooting my ARs (personal opinion of course).
I wouldn’t want to go to war with an M14 when other choices like the OBR are now available; as my Sage EBR setup is heavy. (close to 14 pounds with bipod and scope).
Again, my LRBs are not “rack grade” horror stories like many of you have experienced, but decent M14s are definitely capable to reaching out to 1,000 yards.
You can pretty much dismiss anything said by someone wearing a drop leg holster inside a store.
domestique
12-15-12, 13:20
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You can pretty much dismiss anything said by someone wearing a drop leg holster inside a store.
My one LGS, has a guy that wears a 5.11 vest, with amber shooting glasses, 10" hiking boots with shorts, and his 1911 Kimber in a shoulder holster.
Magic_Salad0892
12-15-12, 20:07
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My one LGS, has a guy that wears a 5.11 vest, with amber shooting glasses, 10" hiking boots with shorts, and his 1911 Kimber in a shoulder holster.
When this man gives you life advice. Kindly ignore it.
I have been shooting M-14s and M1As for 30+ years and I never saw one that would come within the same zip code of shooting that well at 1000 yards. Over the years I have heard enough BS on both sides of the counter at gun shops to fertilize the entire state of Nebraska.
Alright I have to say first that the sage platform is an ergonomic trainwreck, not balanced, and a nightmare to maintain with the minimal tools I had to borrow and steal. I was never 100 percent confident in my zero after bouncing around in the back of an mrap or vibrating in a shinook. That being said, I was always pleasently suprised with accuracy and have made shots passed 1000m with mine. Also 5 shot groups that were sub minute. Hard to believe i know but i can barely believe it my self...this rifle was later ruined by a hungry maxpro door thanks to my driver...i was given a replacement and could never do better than 1.5-2 moa...i am now convinced that although a terrible, heavy platform, it is luck of the draw and it is actually capable although not likely to get decent accuracy. I guess you just have to get that random one that didnt have a garbage barrel.
decodeddiesel
12-19-12, 23:26
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My one LGS, has a guy that wears a 5.11 vest, with amber shooting glasses, 10" hiking boots with shorts, and his 1911 Kimber in a shoulder holster.
http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/big_lebowski_walter_gun1.jpg
I NEVER listen to salesmen as on a whole, they usually have zero real world knowledge. I guess they feel that since they were given the "High n Mighty" position of salesperson that it makes them "know it all's".
LRB makes nice receiver's. That being said, I'll take n OBR over ANY M-14, whether rack grade, in a Sage, Crazy Horse of whatever. I'm sure the fella's who have an affinity for M-14/M1A's will enjoy shooting them but they really are just an M1 Garand with a box magazine. Thats not taking anything away from the design because back in its heyday, it was a top notch weapon. That was then and this is now. I'd much rather have, like I have previously stated, an OBR. I'd really like to check out a SCAR 17 SSR as well. Some platform's stand up to the test of time better than other's.
It's funny that many of the fella's who have an attachment to the M-14's are the older gentlemen who perhaps carried/trained with one. I'm 41 Former Marine Grunt and I'm an AR guy all the way. My Father is a 70 yrs old, Navy vet/20 yr NYPD vet and he loves the M-14. To each his own I guess.
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