View Full Version : Too Many To Choose From
I've been doing alot of reading here, but for the most part, you all suggest buying top of the line. The responses make it sound like if you don't buy Colt, Lmt, etc. you'll have problems. So for the guy that shoots perhaps 2,000 rounds a year or less, what do you recommend for an out of the box carbine and suggestions for a parts gun that's not going to give alot of problems? I've not seen alot mentioned about DoubleStar or High Standard guns or parts. Maybe someone could class the guns and major parts as bad, good better, best. It'd make it a whole lot easier on dummies like me. I'm trying to read & learn, but there's way too much to take in in my lifetime and I'm old already! I pretty much know what I want , but choosing parts to build it makes my head hurt. Thanks for any help!
On this site, most on here focus on highly reliable weapons that will stand up to extensive training, sport shooting, actual hard use in the field, or just self defense that you can be reasonably assured that when needed it is gonna work.
The general field of topics and recommendations are going to be the higher quality weapons, optics, and accessories that have proven to be both reliable, dependable and work well under stress.
When lessor quality products are (through actual use) documented to fail, they become a no go and thats why only the higher quality brands will be recommended.
Not much of an answer to your question but maybe a reason you hear so much on the higher end brands that are recommended and why.
I see.................thanks!
It's not that you WILL have problems it is just that you will be more likely to have problems and people don't like helping you through your problems if you don't listen to them in the first place.
Slinger
I've not seen alot mentioned about DoubleStar or High Standard guns or parts.
Ya ever think that maybe that's a clue....;)
Your not really different then anyone else.. you want a dependable AR, but don't what to spend a lot of money....
I want a Cadillac too... but I don't want a monthly payment over $150...
Since you sound like a pretty typical shooter who goes to the range.. you can pretty much buy anything and you should be happy short of the really bad rep makers like Vulcan/Hesse, etc.
I myself am not a builder, I'm a shooter... have no interest in building one, I want the most reliable AR they make and I will pay a little more.. like all thinks in life.. you have to decide how much you want to pay to get want you want.
I bought a LMT lower and put a BCM upper and got myself a reliable AR build to a Standard. it will last me a lifetime and give me reliable service. Could I have built one cheaper?? Everyone seems to think they know enough about AR's that they can.. but ya know what??? most of the guys with problem guns...build them.
Go get yourself a nice off the shelf Bushmaster and go shoot.. if you have a problem, they will fix it. and you will be happy.
Slinger
Go get yourself a nice off the shelf Bushmaster and go shoot.. if you have a problem, they will fix it. and you will be happy.
That is some excellent no BS advise there.
It looks like I will get the honor of being the first on this site to tell you that you couldn't be more wrong. Tha shrubmaster will prove to be shit and you will be buying again very soon. Bushmaster is the most despised brand of ridle on this site for a good reason.
Been said over and over; "buy cheap, buy twice." Better off making a solid investment in a rifle as opposed to going cheap now and wasting that money when you eventually upgrade.
Ridgerunner665
01-25-08, 22:33
Yep...theres a lot to choose from.
What you gotta do when reading forums is learn to "chew up the meat and spit out the bone"...I'm new to AR's...but I've been a long range shooter for a little over 25 years...I have a few $2000+ plus bolt guns...and I just bought a Smith & Wesson MP 15 standard model....from your post it would suit you well...Smith&Wesson appears to be the best of the "not so good" AR's. Give them a look and see what you think.:)
There really isn't a lot of crap to sort through here. Usually the first responses are correct.
That is some excellent no BS advise there.
What the ****? :rolleyes:
Like I said before, this site hasn't nearly the same amount of absolute idiot twits as AR15.com has. You will NOT start a thread here asking advice where 90% will tell you that the cheap option is best only because all they do is stare at it while beating off with peanut butter.
You'll get no BS responses here. People here are encouraged to be nice but you won't be bullshitted. It seems though that recently (read: this thread) that you will get BS advice (Bushmaster to be specific.)
I don't know if these Bushmaster comments are real or just made to be funny but Bushmaster is junk.
When you buy something just to get by because you want something you also have to look at the fact that if you do some day (and you will because of BRD and common sense) buy something NICE, you will have something nice and something garbage. You will have to either dump the garbage for a huge loss or live with it in which case you won't want to because your other rifle is that much better.
Take for instance the guy who recently bought a BM and accessorized it with Tapco shit because he wanted lasers, lights, rails and foregrips and didn't want to spend more than $100 total on all of the accessories. The advice to him when selling it with the "upgrades" was to sell all of that junk on AR15.com to the idiots who like that crap and who won't ever know any better and to take as little of a loss on a stock BM as possible. He won't be able to sell the BM here either unfortunately for him.
Play Nice!!!
For the activities that you describe, I think your plan to purchase a factory Bushmaster will suit your needs nicely… However it may need some tweaking so you may want to:
- Have the bolt carrier gas key staked and the non milspec receiver extension castle nut staked…
- Change out the CAR buffer for an H buffer and the blue rifle extractor insert for the correct black carbine one with the Crane O ring…
- You also probably will not be able to zero it with the iron sights because the front sight base is a rifle one and is the wrong height to correctly mechanically zero. This will not matter as long as you use an optic mounted to the flat top and don’t try to use a carbine BUIS…
- PMAGs seem to overcome any advantage that M4 feed lips give, so if you use them that also should not be an issue…
If you do those things you should have a Bushmaster shooter that will meet your current needs…
Just my .02
Buck
I'll second Harv and Buck's posts. For what your looking for, a Bushmaster should fit what your looking for just fine. Other choices would be a base model S&W M&P or a Stag.
I agree with the above. If you get to going ape shit on the AR platform, you'll end up with mulitiple guns anyway. At that time you can step up to a premium model.
Not every gun I own is a Colt. I have several mutts that I use weekly for range practice.
What the ****? :rolleyes:
Like I said before, this site hasn't nearly the same amount of absolute idiot twits as AR15.com has. You will NOT start a thread here asking advice where 90% will tell you that the cheap option is best only because all they do is stare at it while beating off with peanut butter.
You'll get no BS responses here. People here are encouraged to be nice but you won't be bullshitted. It seems though that recently (read: this thread) that you will get BS advice (Bushmaster to be specific.)
I don't know if these Bushmaster comments are real or just made to be funny but Bushmaster is junk.
When you buy something just to get by because you want something you also have to look at the fact that if you do some day (and you will because of BRD and common sense) buy something NICE, you will have something nice and something garbage. You will have to either dump the garbage for a huge loss or live with it in which case you won't want to because your other rifle is that much better.
Take for instance the guy who recently bought a BM and accessorized it with Tapco shit because he wanted lasers, lights, rails and foregrips and didn't want to spend more than $100 total on all of the accessories. The advice to him when selling it with the "upgrades" was to sell all of that junk on AR15.com to the idiots who like that crap and who won't ever know any better and to take as little of a loss on a stock BM as possible. He won't be able to sell the BM here either unfortunately for him.
Your kidding right? ROTF LMAO!!! CM hero :rolleyes:
Your kidding right? ROTF LMAO!!! CM hero :rolleyes:
No. The difference between this site and others (TOS) has been the emphasis on quality firearms for self defense, combat use and training where as other sites have catered more to the range toy and plinking area of the spectrum. This is neither a good nor bad thing. For my uses, this forum serves my purposes better than say TOS.
Bushmaster has some serious shortcomings in this arena. As mentioned numerous times, their quality had tended to go the opposite direction over the years as opposed to increasing with innovation and refinement. Bushmaster seems fine with it as their primary market base is the plinking and range toy crowd. More power to them.
Quality typically means Colt, Noveske, LMT, among a few others. Companies where yes you pay more, but you also get more for your money. There is no reason simple items such as properly staked carrier keys should leave the factory unfinished. On a weapon where you place your life on it's reliability those small things add up to make a company very unattractive. Not an elitist thing as I have seen mentioned elsewhere on the errornet, just a common sense approach to a combat weapon.
This is merely my observation and I hope it comes across as civil discussion. There are just certain difference between the intentions of members on this site as opposed to other forums. Quality weapon means I (we) are going home at the end of the day, night, deployment, etc. To recommend a Bushmaster without extensive internal upgrades for anything other plinking, well I cannot do it. My two cents. Again, hopefully that was civil enough Buck isn't gunning for me!
This is my 1st post on the forum. I was going to wait until I recieved my 6920
from Grant @ G&R to post but I had to respond to this thread.
I've been a collector/shooter for about 20 years. Mostly pistols and a few rifles.
One thing I've learned is always get the best you can afford. More then once I
found myself trading/selling a lesser weapon for what I wanted in the first place at a loss.
Someone on this forum said in another thread, "you always hear somebody say
I wish I had bought the Colt, Noveske, etc but not I wish I had bought a Bushy, Olympic, etc.
That's why I ordered my Colt from Grant. I know I won't have any regret or buyer remorse.
I really enjoyed doing my research on this forum. Many knowledgeable people
on here. I hope to contribute myself as I learn more about these carbine's.
Buck-
I wasn't being nasty to the OP as his plan was not to buy a Bushmaster. I just reread his first post and I don't think he was planning on buying a BM. I didn't attack a new guy with new questions over something as silly as a BM.
What I did go after were the suggestions of a BM. I wasn't sure if those guys were joking or not.
Doesn't Grant still own this site? He's not afraid to flat out tell you that BM is junk so I didn't think I'd have to.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
Spend a few hundred dollars over Bushmaster prices and you can get MUCH better rifles. There is NO reason not to buy a S&W M&P15.
Buck-
I wasn't being nasty to the OP as his plan was not to buy a Bushmaster. I just reread his first post and I don't think he was planning on buying a BM. I didn't attack a new guy with new questions over something as silly as a BM.
What I did go after were the suggestions of a BM. I wasn't sure if those guys were joking or not.
Doesn't Grant still own this site? He's not afraid to flat out tell you that BM is junk so I didn't think I'd have to.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
Spend a few hundred dollars over Bushmaster prices and you can get MUCH better rifles. There is NO reason not to buy a S&W M&P15.
Take a chill dude. Your getting more wound up than a snickers at a jenny craig convention. Bushmaster is not junk. They are not as good as they used to be in my opinion, and they are not the top choice, but there are definitely worse choices. With Bucks suggestions, one should have a decent AR for the use that Slinger outlined.
I was merely explaining myself after it seemed that my opinion was pointed out as invalid. I was simply mentioning why I believed it was valid. I'm free to do that.
If I seemed wound up, maybe I was as much as anyone would be if their opinion was challenged.
I've been doing alot of reading here, but for the most part, you all suggest buying top of the line. The responses make it sound like if you don't buy Colt, Lmt, etc. you'll have problems. So for the guy that shoots perhaps 2,000 rounds a year or less, what do you recommend for an out of the box carbine and suggestions for a parts gun that's not going to give alot of problems? I've not seen alot mentioned about DoubleStar or High Standard guns or parts. Maybe someone could class the guns and major parts as bad, good better, best. It'd make it a whole lot easier on dummies like me. I'm trying to read & learn, but there's way too much to take in in my lifetime and I'm old already! I pretty much know what I want , but choosing parts to build it makes my head hurt. Thanks for any help!
Here is some food for thought:
1. Do you intend to defend your life and the lives of others with a firearm?
2. Do you know which gun will be near you when you need it the most?
If your response is Yes and No, then I would try and get the most gun that you can afford.
With that said, there are some excellent value oriented AR's out there. Here is a short list of some of my favs:
1. ADS $825
2. S&W 15A $830
If you must go cheaper than that, then I would really look for a used upper and lowers from a quality manufacturer (like Colt, LMT, SD, etc).
Remember that you really do get what you pay for. ;)
C4
OK... First no one is being gunned for and no one was made to take a time out and stand in the corner... Sometimes people have strong opinions about things they read here and express them in a variety of ways... Just play nice... It is true that this site is unique, in that there is a very high knowledge base, which is mixed in with quite a few alpha personalities...
Do I believe that a new off the shelf Busmaster is the best carbine out there??? No... Do I believe that they have short comings??? Yes... But they can be tweaked and made serviceable...
Looking at whats out there if I had to recommend a quality out of the box entry level carbine, I think the Smith & Wesson M&P15A, that comes with the factory Troy rear sight is a great value. But that does not mean that everything that Bushmaster makes is junk either...
One interesting note is that Bushmaster's QC has gotten worse over the years... They were making a better rifle fifteen years ago than they are now... With the award of the new USGI contract and the QC requirements that will be place on them, they may start making a much better quality rifle right out of the box... We will have to see...
Just my .02
Buck
Grant brings up another good one that I forgot about. ADS. As I and others also already mentioned, the M&P is a good choice as well.
OK... First no one is being gunned for and no one was made to take a time out and stand in the corner... Sometimes people have strong opinions about things they read here and express them in a variety of ways... Just play nice... It is true that this site is unique, in that there is a very high knowledge base, which is mixed in with quite a few alpha personalities...
Do I believe that a new off the shelf Busmaster is the best carbine out there??? No... Do I believe that they have short comings??? Yes... But they can be tweaked and made serviceable...
Looking at whats out there if I had to recommend a quality out of the box entry level carbine, I think the Smith & Wesson M&P15A, that comes with the factory Troy rear sight is a great value. But that does not mean that everything that Bushmaster makes is junk either...
One interesting note is that Bushmaster's QC has gotten worse over the years... They were making a better rifle fifteen years ago than they are now... With the award of the new USGI contract and the QC requirements that will be place on them, they may start making a much better quality rifle right out of the box... We will have to see...
Just my .02
Buck
I agree with Buck 100%.
I don't know. I don't make it a habit of suggesting anything that I feel has poor quality control. I like helping people work through problems but I wouldn't want him to get a BM on my advice only to turn around and have to explain how to stake the carrier key, replace extractor springs and o-rings. I just don't get it.
It just seemed that you were suggesting BM only because I was suggesting against it.
To the OP get a BM and sell it later and get a Colt or go ahead and get a Colt LE model and be done with it. I have had both and now own Colts. This is just advice offered through my own limited personal experience.
I have not owned a Noveske or other upper tier brands.
BushmasterFanBoy
01-26-08, 22:48
Play Nice!!!
For the activities that you describe, I think your plan to purchase a factory Bushmaster will suit your needs nicely… However it may need some tweaking so you may want to:
- Have the bolt carrier gas key staked and the non milspec receiver extension castle nut staked…
- Change out the CAR buffer for an H buffer and the blue rifle extractor insert for the correct black carbine one with the Crane O ring…
- You also probably will not be able to zero it with the iron sights because the front sight base is a rifle one and is the wrong height to correctly mechanically zero. This will not matter as long as you use an optic mounted to the flat top and don’t try to use a carbine BUIS…
- PMAGs seem to overcome any advantage that M4 feed lips give, so if you use them that also should not be an issue…
If you do those things you should have a Bushmaster shooter that will meet your current needs…
Just my .02
Buck
+1 Done this to both of my BM's and they have worked great. (They worked great before, just wanted extra security) Bought the H-Buffers and BCM extractor upgrade kits and have been happy since.
A little addition though, BM sells a .040 taller front sight post, pick this up if you don't buy a carbine with an F-marked FSB.
To be honest however, I'd skimp on the BM and take a look at buying a parts gun, not cheap, just not anything offered out of a factory. Look at what YOU want in YOUR AR and go from there, things like mid-length gas systems on carbine barrels, rails extending over gas blocks, 14.5 in. barrels with perm. muzzle devices, examine all the options instead of just buying "another M4 clone". I've easily spent hundred on work attaching/reattaching muzzle devices, FSB removal, rail installation, all of which could've been avoided if I just knew what I wanted and got it direct instead of learning the hard way.
The best thing you can do is start throwing all of us ideas for your "dream gun". From there, you can really get it narrowed down and find out what you want, and if it will work for you.
I don't know. I don't make it a habit of suggesting anything that I feel has poor quality control. I like helping people work through problems but I wouldn't want him to get a BM on my advice only to turn around and have to explain how to stake the carrier key, replace extractor springs and o-rings. I just don't get it.
It just seemed that you were suggesting BM only because I was suggesting against it.
If the weapon is going to see VERY limited use, you don't need to stake anything or upgrade anything. All weapons run 100% in the safe.
C4
Suicide HZ..
I would rather prefer you come out and call me a know nothing dumb **** for recommending a Bushmaster to this guy, then to tap dance around it..
I don't know where you got your incredible amount of experience over the past 25years.. and your entitled to your opinion, which is worth exactly what anyone paid for it.
I will stand by my original statement.. for what he's looking for. he'll be fine with a Bushmaster. or some of the other AR's suggested.....
That's not what I thought of you but I did think it was sort of inappropriate to recommend one when you yourself won't buy one. The only problem I see in your recommendation of a BM.
No need to get so personal. I don't have 25 years experience with AR15s. I don't know where you get that from.
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