View Full Version : Cerakote vs Mil-Spec Type III Anodizing
GunTotinRedneck
07-31-12, 23:48
For those of you who have had your weapons cerakoted, is the coating that much better for rust and corrosion prevention than standard Mil-Spec Type III anodizing? Or is it mainly cosmetic?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=101214
I like it because you can get a different color. It also adds extra protection.
Now that receivers are avaliable in anodized black, tan, and OD, and soon to be multicam, I see no reason to own a gun that is painted
bphorseguy
08-01-12, 10:35
[QUOTE=scottryan;1360036]Now that receivers are avaliable in anodized black, tan, and OD, and soon to be multicam, I see no reason to own a gun that is painted[/QUOTE
+1 I agree, type III penetrates into the base metal and is very durable.
When anondizing the color varies form batch to batch. Thats why most companies still dont do it.
MikeCLeonard
08-01-12, 11:31
For those of you who have had your weapons cerakoted, is the coating that much better for rust and corrosion prevention than standard Mil-Spec Type III anodizing? Or is it mainly cosmetic?
On aluminum it's mainly cosmetic...but if added over steel then it's a great barrier to corrosion.
MikeCLeonard
08-01-12, 11:33
Now that receivers are avaliable in anodized black, tan, and OD, and soon to be multicam, I see no reason to own a gun that is painted
Any more info on who might be running multicam anodizing in the future?
GunTotinRedneck
08-01-12, 11:41
Any more info on who might be running multicam anodizing in the future?
Yeah I'd like to know as well.
GunTotinRedneck
08-01-12, 11:44
Now that receivers are avaliable in anodized black, tan, and OD, and soon to be multicam, I see no reason to own a gun that is painted
Makes sense. I was just pondering the idea of getting my AR cerakoted FDE for my east Texas environment but the cost would be about $300 and my guns already anodized so I wanted to find out if the cost would be worth it. Thanks for the help guys.
sinlessorrow
08-01-12, 11:51
Any more info on who might be running multicam anodizing in the future?
Colt.
They have shown it at SHOT, they had a digi desert to I belive.
I know they are doing the tan anodizing right now on a limited run.
http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/00-AR15-Colt-CM9011.jpg
http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/00-AR15-Colt-CM901-091.jpg
I cant find any pics of the multi cam but i know ive seen a video of it
On aluminum it's mainly cosmetic...but if added over steel then it's a great barrier to corrosion.
I wouldn't say its just cosmetic on aluminum. You also can't readily anodize ferrous metal, ie steel, the same as you would non-ferrous metal, ie aluminium. There are ways to place oxide layers on steel, but the finish is generally called black oxide, not anodizing. Also not very corossion resistant. Iron oxide is rust.
The only advantage cerakote has over anodizing is color consistency and flexibility. Anodizing is very hard, but very brittle.
In reality, anything that damaged my rifle(s) was enough to also dent/mar/etc the base aluminium.
I haven't been too impressed with any anodized camo finishes. I also doubt they are type III.
Any more info on who might be running multicam anodizing in the future?
Colt has displayed several guns in multicam and other camo patterns at SHOT
For those of you who have had your weapons cerakoted, is the coating that much better for rust and corrosion prevention than standard Mil-Spec Type III anodizing? Or is it mainly cosmetic?
There's no reason you can't have both. Just to clarify, I called Cerakote about having a Sig done as I had concerns about blasting the anodizing off the aluminum frame. They advised me that rather than blasting the anodizing away, they rough the surface of it, providing a good base for the coating. This should induce no harm to the anodizing and retain all the benefits of it.
FWIW, the larger gun manufacturers who do Cerakote in house do not blast the anodizing away prior to applying the coating either, as stated above.
Tspeis
There's no reason you can't have both. Just to clarify, I called Cerakote about having a Sig done as I had concerns about blasting the anodizing off the aluminum frame. They advised me that rather than blasting the anodizing away, they rough the surface of it, providing a good base for the coating. This should induce no harm to the anodizing and retain all the benefits of it.
FWIW, the larger gun manufacturers who do Cerakote in house do not blast the anodizing away prior to applying the coating either, as stated above.
Tspeis
Complete nonsense. You can't get a better "primer" for paint than anodized aluminum. As the anodizing creates a surface matrix, great for paint, it holds oil and other residue not conducive to a good paint job. Proper degreasing is all that is need prior to paint.
GunTotinRedneck
08-01-12, 13:40
Colt.
They have shown it at SHOT, they had a digi desert to I belive.
I know they are doing the tan anodizing right now on a limited run.
http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/00-AR15-Colt-CM9011.jpg
http://gunwebsites.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/00-AR15-Colt-CM901-091.jpg
I cant find any pics of the multi cam but i know ive seen a video of it
I thought those were the water transfer imaging kind of like the stuff offered by wwgunsinc.com?
Complete nonsense. You can't get a better "primer" for paint than anodized aluminum. As the anodizing creates a surface matrix, great for paint, it holds oil and other residue not conducive to a good paint job. Proper degreasing is all that is need prior to paint.
Perhaps if we were talking about something like krylon, then yes. I'm pretty sure cerakote is more than just paint and I'm passing on what was stated to me by them just this afternoon as I felt it was relevant to the OP's question.
Feel free to call them yourself if you disagree.
Tspeis
The_War_Wagon
08-01-12, 14:15
For those of you who have had your weapons cerakoted, is the coating that much better for rust and corrosion prevention than standard Mil-Spec Type III anodizing? Or is it mainly cosmetic?
STS Arms in Mapleton, OR did an AR for me in FDE. Here's their skinny on how cerakoting addresses those questions.
http://stsarms.com/Coating.html
vicious_cb
08-01-12, 15:06
For those of you who have had your weapons cerakoted, is the coating that much better for rust and corrosion prevention than standard Mil-Spec Type III anodizing? Or is it mainly cosmetic?
Aluminum doesnt rust like steel does. Dont worry about it.
"better" is subjective, each has pros and cons. Im a big fan of Cerakote, when you look at the other after market applied finishes Cerakote stands out IMO. Many manufactuers are choosing Cerakote as their primary finish.
Here is my LMT cerakoted Burnt Bronze
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u440/Jason_Prisbrey/jasonsarII002.jpg
Perhaps if we were talking about something like krylon, then yes. I'm pretty sure cerakote is more than just paint and I'm passing on what was stated to me by them just this afternoon as I felt it was relevant to the OP's question.
Feel free to call them yourself if you disagree.
Tspeis
MK18Pilot is correct. Anodizing is already rough.
Cerakote and most all other spray on finishes are glorified paint.
"better" is subjective, each has pros and cons. Im a big fan of Cerakote, when you look at the other after market applied finishes Cerakote stands out IMO. Many manufactuers are choosing Cerakote as their primary finish.
Here is my LMT cerakoted Burnt Bronze
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u440/Jason_Prisbrey/jasonsarII002.jpg
That should have been anodized in that color. Painting it in that color is cutting a corner.
My ak is coated black in Cerakote. The first time I adjusted the front sight the coating flaked off just from using the sight adjustment tool. It's parkerized underneath so its not a biggie but I dont think any if the spray on coatings are as durable as good old phosphate or anodized on something that is gonna get used a lot.
Colt coming out with anodized receivers other than black is one of the most significant developments in the AR-15 world over the past 10 years.
GunTotinRedneck
08-01-12, 16:11
STS Arms in Mapleton, OR did an AR for me in FDE. Here's their skinny on how cerakoting addresses those questions.
http://stsarms.com/Coating.html
So does that mean cerakote would be a better finish than standard anodizing on a bolt carrier group? Kind of like in MACs video?
So does that mean cerakote would be a better finish than standard anodizing on a bolt carrier group? Kind of like in MACs video?
A BCG cannot be anodized.
So does that mean cerakote would be a better finish than standard anodizing on a bolt carrier group? Kind of like in MACs video?
Anodizing is only for aluminum and other alloys that end in "um".
That should have been anodized in that color. Painting it in that color is cutting a corner.
I'd be willing to bet that it is under that cerakote.
So does that mean cerakote would be a better finish than standard anodizing on a bolt carrier group? Kind of like in MACs video?
Cerakoting it with the Micro Slick product works very well, and as previously stated you cannot anodize steel.
So does that mean cerakote would be a better finish than standard anodizing on a bolt carrier group? Kind of like in MACs video?
Cerakote is a useless application for a bolt carrier. The bolt carrier is parkerized (manganese phosphate) and its surface matrix holds lubricant exceptionally well. Phosphate is also an excellent "primer" prior to paint.
I'd be willing to bet that it is under that cerakote.
I already know that.
That should have been anodized in that color. Painting it in that color is cutting a corner.
Scott, would you know what type of anodizing Colt uses on those camo ones? TypeII hard coat like DD's DE rails perhaps?
I too thought those were water transfers but I can see how it could be done with ano...
Scott, would you know what type of anodizing Colt uses on those camo ones? TypeII hard coat like DD's DE rails perhaps?
I too thought those were water transfers but I can see how it could be done with ano...
I haven't figured that out yet.
vicious_cb
08-01-12, 20:01
So does that mean cerakote would be a better finish than standard anodizing on a bolt carrier group? Kind of like in MACs video?
Its a horrible finish for the bolt. Cerakote basically repels lube, I mean the oil just beads up on cerakoted surfaces like water on a waxed car. Phosphated bolts hold lube and its a much better finish for a bolt.
"better" is subjective, each has pros and cons. Im a big fan of Cerakote, when you look at the other after market applied finishes Cerakote stands out IMO. Many manufactuers are choosing Cerakote as their primary finish.
Here is my LMT cerakoted Burnt Bronze
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u440/Jason_Prisbrey/jasonsarII002.jpg
That's the EXACT coating I want!!!
Who did yours?!?!
I already know that.
What was your point then?
Reagans Rascals
08-01-12, 22:58
How can COLT or anyone else for that matter anodize an actual pattern like that multi-cam/real-tree type they did...
I'm fairly familiar with the whole process and I can't for the life of me figure it out... unless they are using a water transfer type film for the dying/printing process after the initial etching.... as in.... etch to the specified mil thickness then instead of dipping it in a heated dyeing solution, they dip it into a water transfer film and that is absorbed into the "corrosion" instead of a standard dye... its that or they are actually taking the time to anodize specific colors in specific orders for patterns or some type of splash effect.... which I can see as being very labor intensive and not really cost effective...
any info?
that definitely isn't Type3-Hardcoat is it?
That's the EXACT coating I want!!!
Who did yours?!?!
PM inbound
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-02-12, 00:40
I have yet to see an anodize version of tan/FDE that looks right. To me they end up looking too bronze/gold looking. The plastic parts never look right next to it.
Cerakote aint paint. They have something special there. That heat cure and inorganic backbone make it a really tough coating. Plus they have their Stealth modification for IR camo that you can use on the whole gun, not just the aluminum parts.
Anodizing is a great finish but a coating like cerakote does stuff that anodizing can't.
How can COLT or anyone else for that matter anodize an actual pattern like that multi-cam/real-tree type they did...
I'm fairly familiar with the whole process and I can't for the life of me figure it out... unless they are using a water transfer type film for the dying/printing process after the initial etching.... as in.... etch to the specified mil thickness then instead of dipping it in a heated dyeing solution, they dip it into a water transfer film and that is absorbed into the "corrosion" instead of a standard dye... its that or they are actually taking the time to anodize specific colors in specific orders for patterns or some type of splash effect.... which I can see as being very labor intensive and not really cost effective...
any info?
that definitely isn't Type3-Hardcoat is it?
It depends on the pattern and the person doing the work. For anno that is in a digi like in the picture they will use a film like taping off something for painting. It just has to be strong enough to hold up to the process. Designs like splashes some places use a substance like hot glue.
If you want to see some truly amazing anno jobs look at some pics from companies who do paintball markers. Those company's will also do receivers. The colors you see that have multi colors it is type II. Type III is only available in a very few colors from what i have heard but i have only seen grey and black.
It is a two step process it is put in the hot electrified tank to apply anno then put in a dye tank.
everyusernametaken
08-02-12, 05:55
It depends on the pattern and the person doing the work. For anno that is in a digi like in the picture they will use a film like taping off something for painting. It just has to be strong enough to hold up to the process. Designs like splashes some places use a substance like hot glue.
If you want to see some truly amazing anno jobs look at some pics from companies who do paintball markers. Those company's will also do receivers. The colors you see that have multi colors it is type II. Type III is only available in a very few colors from what i have heard but i have only seen grey and black.
It is a two step process it is put in the hot electrified tank to apply anno then put in a dye tank.
Yeah, I believe it would have to be type II anodized, but the dye pattern on the Colts is likely a water-dipped transfer film. Those intricate patterns would be a hell of a task using masks, especially if they want to produce any quantity.
patriot_man
08-02-12, 07:00
Colt specifically mentioned that their patterns were actually anodizing. No dips.
everyusernametaken
08-02-12, 07:12
Colt specifically mentioned that their patterns were actually anodizing. No dips.
Yes, it is anodized, but then a dye is applied to color it. For an intricate pattern like those camos on a complex, three-dimensional shape, the water transfer film method would be the most cost effective.
Colored anodized finishes are achieved through dyes, when any color other than the natural anodized finish is desired.
Yes, it is anodized, but then a dye is applied to color it. For an intricate pattern like those camos on a complex, three-dimensional shape, the water transfer film method would be the most cost effective.
Colored anodized finishes are achieved through dyes, when any color other than the natural anodized finish is desired.
When I was into paintball back in the day "splash" and fade anodizing was popular on high end guns. I always thought they looked bad. Hope I never see it on an AR.
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
Anodizing is a great finish but a coating like cerakote does stuff that anodizing can't.
Like what?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-02-12, 07:52
Like what?
Better control over color and gloss. Can be applied post-factory and to parts besides -um metal parts. Lots of different colors.
I'd like to see tests run on heat dissapation. I think the cerakote will have a higher emissivity than anodizing, but being a thicker coating cerakote might slow down heat transfer. Maybe more of a barrel phosphating/painting question.
I don't think painting is a silver bullet. People have capital built into current manufacturing. Permitting and setting up for spray applications in some areas can be hard.
I like anodized and overcoated with cerakote. I think that plays to the strengths of both- it just would be expensive.
The_War_Wagon
08-02-12, 08:53
Here's my FDE AR, after the first 300 rounds at the range (brass-cased ammo ALWAYS).
In particular, the shell deflector, which takes the GREATEST beating at the range, unless you DROP the rifle.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/New%20build/100_8406.jpg
In this next picture, I have 'cleaned' the affected area... by wiping my thumb across it.
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/New%20build/100_8408.jpg
Yes, there is some chipping at the base of the deflector, where the brass impacted on exit. I believe MOST AR's end up that way at the brass deflector, regardless the coating.
It's not a MIRACLE coat... but it's tougher and thinner than anything else you can find to coat a rifle in, and for the externals, it's the finish I prefer, if I'm not leaving it factory black/anodized.
Better control over color and gloss. Can be applied post-factory and to parts besides -um metal parts. Lots of different colors.
That is cosmetics. I agree cerakote looks better than goldish anodizing.
I'd like to see tests run on heat dissapation. I think the cerakote will have a higher emissivity than anodizing, but being a thicker coating cerakote might slow down heat transfer. Maybe more of a barrel phosphating/painting question.
I don't see how that is significant to matter in anything other than theory.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-02-12, 09:52
That is cosmetics. I agree cerakote looks better than goldish anodizing.
I don't see how that is significant to matter in anything other than theory.
A major function of coatings is cosmetic.
As to heat dissipation; ever shoot one of JP tube uppers in a three gun match? They can get hot when you miss as much as I do. ;)
Like I said, I'm not sure what effect it would have on performance. I think it would be interesting to see.
Reagans Rascals
08-02-12, 12:03
Colt specifically mentioned that their patterns were actually anodizing. No dips.
You place the part in dye after you initially acid etch during the anodizing process.... that's how you can get different color Type II anodized finishes... so basically.. .once you remove the part from the acid bath, you would "dip it" so to say into a water transfer film that would be absorbed into the corrosion and boil sealed in after that...
but... that is only a Type II anodized finish.... if that is what all the fuss is about... then no thank you
I'd much rather just retain the Type III Hard-coat and then just simply have it dipped with a water transfer or Cerakoted.... you lose a lot of surface hardness just using a Type II... it would be the same as just not even anodizing and painting the bare metal... it'll chip and dent very easily... Type III greatly helps prevent dents and dings because of the huge increase in surface hardness...
There is no benefit whatsoever to having an anodized pattern.... you can simply stick with the Type III Hard-coat already on the gun and apply the water transfer film right on top of that... and get the best of both worlds... strong corrosion resistance, vastly increased surface hardness to resist dings and nicks, and the same cosmetic pattern...
I see no point in compromising the coating for sake of a pattern...
But then again... if COLT has somehow cracked the safe on Type III coloring... then by all means go for it....
This is all academic though.... you can't anodize then entirety of the weapon... so Cerakote will usually win out because it can be applied to every square inch... butt to muzzle...
I myself would be more interested in seeing all of the parts of a complete weapon Salt Bath Nitrided from the factory in place of anodizing or other coatings... because you can Nitride all metal parts on the weapon... barrel, BCG, fire control parts, receivers, everything.... replaces the need for a chrome lined barrel, adds surface hardness and corrosion resistance to all the parts and I simply like have uniformity through out the weapon... all the parts have the same surface finish... as opposed to some being anodized, some being parkerized or chrome lined, and others being just heat treated...
I'd like to see tests run on heat dissapation. I think the cerakote will have a higher emissivity than anodizing, but being a thicker coating cerakote might slow down heat transfer. Maybe more of a barrel phosphating/painting question.
I know in the automotive field the application of cerakote on engine parts reduces temperature and increases efficiency which results in more horsepower, so i think there is something there.
Reagans Rascals
08-02-12, 12:28
I know in the automotive field the application of cerakote on engine parts reduces temperature and increases efficiency which results in more horsepower, so i think there is something there.
I know it definitively helps to have the inside of exhaust pipes ceramic coated... on my bike it really helps to prevent chrome blueing, keeps the heat down on the exterior of the pipes which keeps me from burning my legs frequently and I can definitely notice an increase in power because it helps retain exhaust temps and keep it flowing better...
anodizing is exceptionally hard to get reliable results esp. consistent color, and less so.. hardness.
Remember the occasional purple receivers? Or S&W M&P goldish slides?
Having worked with several vendors in high end aircraft, maritime, and weapons aluminum & titanium parts, I can appreciate the difficulties. Minor variances can "ruin" whole batches. Too shiny, off color, etc.
In the end it's a color and if hard enough, of little practical difference for most uses.. colored anodizing isn't significant in any regard.
However the consumer demands consistant esthetic qualities. And other customers will be concerned with signature issues. IMO anodizing is inappropriate for either concern.
As far as finishes that professionals use for naked eye, rear IR and IR considerations.. cerakote is a consistent performer.
I have 2 10/22's done Cerakote they are holding up real well
The professionals that apply anno have there colors down to where they can achieve virtually the same color each and every time. There is even a company called DYE that has a proprietary process called graphic annodising.
Type II is not as fragile as some are making it out to be. If applied properly it will not dent or flake like some have stated. If the force is hard enough to dent the aluminum it will dent if it is type II or III. As far as scratch resistance type III is better, but it is not a huge difference. I have had pb markers that were type III IS(old aka excalibur). I have also had many that were type II (egos, eteks and many other name only a few will recognize). They take the abuse and keep on going will they get scratches yes but so did the type III excalibur. I have never seen a properly applied anno of any type flake.
If i wanted to do a camo pattern on an ar i think cerakote is much easier and can be applied over the entire surface. If i could purchase an ar from colt that had all the aluminum parts annoed multi cam i would do it in a heartbeat, and never wory about it being type II. Type III is a nice insurance policy for the military as it probably passes some of the military salt bath testing a little better, most shooters would never know the difference if it was type II or III.
Edit: i was going to post a couple pics i have of the more intricate jobs i have seen and decided to look around, an i found a company doing a form of graphic annodising they call pixodize. The company says it is a proprietary mil spec hard coat annodising (which should be type III if it truly is mile spec hard anno). The company is IHC and it says that mminimum price is 250 which should cover upper, lower, and a rail. They have an ffl it says. Just wanted to pass on the info. Google IHC or pixodize and it should come up. They have a few pics of the patterns and it looks good.
Anodizing, whether type II/III should, should never be removed. As stated earlier in the thread, degrease and paint. The metal parts should be degreased, blasted, cerakote, bake, assemble...With alloys, anodizing is your best friend, if your coating guy want to blast it off in his cabinet, he is not.;)
wildmanjeff
11-30-12, 18:38
un-anodized aluminum will corrode and pit from moisture/condensation is this not correct? I was caving with a sponsored professional rock climber one time that refused to cross a tyrolean(horizontal rope run) on equipment that had been exposed for only a short period of time to high humidity. He claimed the metal was seriously weakened (to my eye it was the matte dull aluminum color most is).
I found this thread from a cerakote search over anodizing, now I am questioning the whole cerakote process due to claims that the metal must be blasted clean. I don't want to ruin the anodizing, nor pay the high price for cerakote and have it not be durable due to undercoating.
I found this thread from a cerakote search over anodizing, now I am questioning the whole cerakote process due to claims that the metal must be blasted clean. I don't want to ruin the anodizing, nor pay the high price for cerakote and have it not be durable due to undercoating.
You do not have to completely remove the anodizing, you just need to rough it up just as you would any surface prior to applying.
sinlessorrow
11-30-12, 20:42
un-anodized aluminum will corrode and pit from moisture/condensation is this not correct? I was caving with a sponsored professional rock climber one time that refused to cross a tyrolean(horizontal rope run) on equipment that had been exposed for only a short period of time to high humidity. He claimed the metal was seriously weakened (to my eye it was the matte dull aluminum color most is).
I found this thread from a cerakote search over anodizing, now I am questioning the whole cerakote process due to claims that the metal must be blasted clean. I don't want to ruin the anodizing, nor pay the high price for cerakote and have it not be durable due to undercoating.
Not really, Aluminum is highly susceptible to Aluminum Oxide Corrosion which will slightly corrode the top surface but then hardens and protects the remaining aluminum, there should be no change in durability. It even looks like aluminum just slightly whiteish
Cerakote is a aircraft paint.
I don't think the camo pattern is anodized.
IHC...
I stand corrected.
Cool!
I have a few guns and knives cerakoated and all look pretty spectacular compared to their non-cerakoated counterparts, including a 6920. While I don't have any quantifiable data about it, I know that I've never gotten rust on anything I've had cerakoated either, so based upon my experiences I know I'll be getting more guns coated in the future.
Nearest company that does Cerakote is next country from me. Here I could not find gunsmith that can oven cure it. How bad is Air-Dry version? Worth something?
There's no reason you can't have both. Just to clarify, I called Cerakote about having a Sig done as I had concerns about blasting the anodizing off the aluminum frame. They advised me that rather than blasting the anodizing away, they rough the surface of it, providing a good base for the coating. This should induce no harm to the anodizing and retain all the benefits of it.
FWIW, the larger gun manufacturers who do Cerakote in house do not blast the anodizing away prior to applying the coating either, as stated above.
Tspeis
I was just going to make this point. You can spray Cerakote right over fresh anodized aluminum. If you buy a brand new receiver with no wear all you have to do is degrease and spray. The anodized finish provides enough bite for the paint to stick great.
And for slightly worn anodizing, all you have to do is blast with low air pressure to not remove the anodizing but to scuff it up if you will.
Cerakote over anodizing will give great corrosion resistance. Just make sure you ream all your holes and spray lightly on the insides so your mags will drop free and your bolt wont drag. For rifles I use an airbrush for the inside and an HVLP gun for the outer surfaces.
I just bought a Sig 716 in FDE. Extremely handsome finish, to me. Does anyone know if Sig is using Cerakote on these ?
Skip
I just bought a Sig 716 in FDE. Extremely handsome finish, to me. Does anyone know if Sig is using Cerakote on these ?
Skip
Yes Sig is using Cerakote as a primary finish on many of their firearms.
I have found with my pretty cerekoted guns i tend to baby them and not treat themlike a tool and more of a piece of art...i know the finish is the best, but i still cannot get used to it. If you can anodize to a certain color and actually have it match and not look like a scar...i would be all over that.
I was just going to make this point. You can spray Cerakote right over fresh anodized aluminum. If you buy a brand new receiver with no wear all you have to do is degrease and spray. The anodized finish provides enough bite for the paint to stick great.
I was thinking this about type 3 "isn't it rough enough? And why would I have to remove it?"
Since my understanding of type 3 is that it is a conversion of the aluminum surface, not an additional coating.
There is so much disinformation about anodizing in this thread it's ridiculous.
Anodizing converts the surface of the aluminum into aluminum oxide which is integral to the base material. It does not flake off. Anodizing offers little resistance to denting but does offer resistance to scratching, fretting and abrasion. If the surface of aluminum is damaged and the bare aluminum is exposed, as long as there is oxygen, the aluminum oxide will reform. Aluminum oxide, whether it's natural or formed by anodizing also protects aluminum from corroding. If conditions exist that prevent the aluminum from forming aluminum oxide, corrosion can begin. The protective layer formed by anodizing is uniform, denser than that formed by natural oxidation and allows control of layer thickness.
Color has nothing to do with anodizing Type, whether it's I, II or III. Type determines how thick the aluminum oxide is and what specific process is used. Class determines if a dye is used. Class I is undyed. Class II is dyed. The anodizing used on milspec AR receivers is Type III (Hard Anodizing), Class II (Dyed). If an AR were treated with Type III, Class I anodizing, it would still be just as tough. The only difference is the metal would be a dull metallic grey/bronze or grey/black.
Applying Cerracoat over the anodizing adds another layer of protection. Cerracoat can be formulated to aid in heat dissipation, or to insulate, according to need. For example, applying Ceracoat for heat dissipation to the exterior of a rifle barrel would aid in cooling. Insulating Cerracoat applied to the headers of a car engine would keep more heat inside the header, improving exhaust flow and reducing underhood temps
For additional reading about anodizing-
http://www.anodizing.org/Anodizing/what_is_anodizing.html
http://www.anodizeusa.com/anodizing-systems-hard-coat.php
http://www.arrowcryogenics.com/hard-coat-aluminum-anodizing.htm
^^^ Excellent post...
Anodizing is also a great "primer" for painting. The surface matrix created during the conversion process holds paint exceptionally well. The same can be said about phosphating on ferrous metals.
I'm glad this thread got bumped. I have an old Mossberg 500A that I've been wanting to have refinished, as it's blued now. It looks like Cerakote will be ideal for what I want.
Man, I need to pay more attention to posting dates
Let's get this out of the way first- The color of the rail not matching the rest of the rifle will not change how it shoots. Even if everything did match, how long will that last? Stains from powder residue, gun oil and oil from your hands, fading from the sun, darkening or lightening from age- all take their toll and no two parts will be affected in the same way. Get over it. My sling don't match my FDE furniture. Giving my FDE PMags with an old toothbrush, water and a little dish soap seems to have lightened up my PMags. Oil from my hands have darkened the grip and the handguard. The stainless steel barrel has browned from heat, Powder residue has greyed some parts.
As I see it, you have two choices- Use it as is, or paint the part and see what happens. Even if you paint the rail, there's a good chance it won't match. Even if it does match, it's still going to be affected by oils, sun fade and aging. Either way, you don't need anyone else's permission or approval to make your choice.
One thing I will say- don't go back to black. I went with FDE furniture for my ARs for three reasons- First, it's what I like. Second, in the field hunting, a light colored rifle is less conspicuous than a dark one. Third, the most important, FDE does not get as hot out in the sun. Even if your rifle is a patchwork of different browns/tans, it will stay much cooler than it's be if it were black, especially with aluminum handguards (this is why I use polymer or carbon fiber handguards). Besides, the different tones should help break up the rifle's outline.
If you do decide to paint your rail, some things to consider. Paint adds to the dimensions of the part. Don't make the paint too thick. If not applied carefully, the paint could run or orange peel. All of these conditions could make it difficult to mount your favorite crapola.
But, if you're not mounting any crapola to the rails, it makes little difference. Realistically, how much crapola do you really want to mount anyway? Maybe a sling swivel and a weapon light.
In your shoes, I'd mount that rail to my rifle and run it until I either got used to it or my CDO couldn't take it any more, then I'd paint it. But don't worry about it so much that you're not shooting your rifle. Go mount your rail and go shoot. If you want to shoot it with a light coat of spray paint, do it. Shoot it and shoot it, or just go shoot it. Life is too short. Get over it and shoot it
There is so much disinformation about anodizing in this thread it's ridiculous.
Anodizing converts the surface of the aluminum into aluminum oxide which is integral to the base material. It does not flake off. Anodizing offers little resistance to denting but does offer resistance to scratching, fretting and abrasion. If the surface of aluminum is damaged and the bare aluminum is exposed, as long as there is oxygen, the aluminum oxide will reform. Aluminum oxide, whether it's natural or formed by anodizing also protects aluminum from corroding. If conditions exist that prevent the aluminum from forming aluminum oxide, corrosion can begin. The protective layer formed by anodizing is uniform, denser than that formed by natural oxidation and allows control of layer thickness.
Color has nothing to do with anodizing Type, whether it's I, II or III. Type determines how thick the aluminum oxide is and what specific process is used. Class determines if a dye is used. Class I is undyed. Class II is dyed. The anodizing used on milspec AR receivers is Type III (Hard Anodizing), Class II (Dyed). If an AR were treated with Type III, Class I anodizing, it would still be just as tough. The only difference is the metal would be a dull metallic grey/bronze or grey/black.
Applying Cerracoat over the anodizing adds another layer of protection. Cerracoat can be formulated to aid in heat dissipation, or to insulate, according to need. For example, applying Ceracoat for heat dissipation to the exterior of a rifle barrel would aid in cooling. Insulating Cerracoat applied to the headers of a car engine would keep more heat inside the header, improving exhaust flow and reducing underhood temps
For additional reading about anodizing-
http://www.anodizing.org/Anodizing/what_is_anodizing.html
http://www.anodizeusa.com/anodizing-systems-hard-coat.php
http://www.arrowcryogenics.com/hard-coat-aluminum-anodizing.htm
This ^^^
Anodizing (oxide) grows in 2 directions.. From the surface up and the surface down... Hard coat anodize is about .0025" thick above the surface and .0025" below the surface. Precision reamed holes in machined parts have to be reamed "big" to allow for anodizing into tolerance. ( Lower receiver pivot pin and takedown pin holes come to mind )
Maybe my OCD is better than your DCO;) I mean that in terms of having my rail match the accented color, even if its not the same exact color that's ok as long as it is closer to what I have invisioned it too look like, my wife also works in fashion at QVC, so I damn well better have it match when I give it to her or I will have to tell her about my sudden case of color blind eyes. :)
CDO- It needs to be alphabetized.
I didn't know this was for your wife- that's a horse of a different color. In that case, yes- paint the rail.
PS- While my previous answer was based on common sense, I was also trying to make it humorous. Sometimes I miss my mark. But I will address the pros & cons-
CON- MarkM will be sure to come along to pronounce the whole thing ghey
PRO- You won't have to fess up to being color blind and color matching the rifle is much easier than picking out drapes for the Dog House no matter what MarkM says
Now that receivers are avaliable in anodized black, tan, and OD, and soon to be multicam, I see no reason to own a gun that is painted
In my humble opinion, I agree with this.
I had my M&P slide "painted" with Gunkote (same as Cerakote) and am NOT happy with the results. The paint itself is glossier than the Melonite was and I just don't think it looks as good.
This is just over a year of use in a Kydex holster. It really is much worse in person (the glare hides a lot of wear). However, this IS a "duty" gun so wear is to be expected. I just didn't think there would be so much, so fast.
http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l565/pyzik200/Guns/IMG_20130702_185144_492_zps20729680.jpg (http://s1124.photobucket.com/user/pyzik200/media/Guns/IMG_20130702_185144_492_zps20729680.jpg.html)
http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l565/pyzik200/Guns/IMG_20130702_185259_754_zpsc405014a.jpg (http://s1124.photobucket.com/user/pyzik200/media/Guns/IMG_20130702_185259_754_zpsc405014a.jpg.html)
http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l565/pyzik200/Guns/IMG_20130702_185423_808_zps4290b7a5.jpg (http://s1124.photobucket.com/user/pyzik200/media/Guns/IMG_20130702_185423_808_zps4290b7a5.jpg.html)
barrelwrench
07-10-13, 08:27
PYZIK, Sorry to see that. We recently closed our shop due to the AHCA taxes we would be facing in 2013. But I did a lot of coatings, Duracoat, Gunkote, cerecoat and contracted out parkerizing and anodizing.
I have not found the magic coating for holster wear. What I did find a way to combat holster wear a little longer. I would parkerize the slide and then gunkote over it and increase curing temp to 400 degrees.
Just some info should you go that route again.
ZINCOGNITO
07-15-13, 00:02
...............
I had my M&P slide "painted" with Gunkote (same as Cerakote) and am NOT happy with the results.
Gunkote is not the same as Cerakote.
None of the sprayed and baked on oven treatments will be as durable as a chemical metal treatment such as Melonite or anodizing.
Tactical Joke
07-25-13, 01:32
Gunkote is not the same as Cerakote.
None of the sprayed and baked on oven treatments will be as durable as a chemical metal treatment such as Melonite or anodizing.
Exactly.
I've had decent luck with Norrell's, and it's tough as hell, but I'm under no illusion that it is as tough as nitro-carburizing, parkerizing, or anodizing. The key to any coating is prep. I took a LOT of time to clean the surface and made sure my temps were correct.
Also, advanced coatings are NOT paint, and they're a hell of a lot tougher than any paint. Properly prepped and cured Norrell's or Cerakote will not come off with any solvent that I've used. In fact, the only thing I've found that will take Norrel's off is a sanding wheel or sandpaper and alot of f'n effort. Note to self: don't use tan moly-resin the front sight post.
We do several different types of ceramic coatings on roller bearings and I can assure everyone, it is not "just paint". Depending upon the thickness, ceramic can chip on sharp edges, but it is otherwise very tough - hard on machine tool shoes.
That said, I have a 6.8 with an aluminum tube fore end and cerakoted barrel. Having had more than a little experience with metal handguards on G1 FALs, I expected the aluminum tube to get quite hot - but it doesn't. The surface of the barrel stays much cooler than a parkerized or Krylon finished barrel.
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