View Full Version : ICE - Obama Won’t Let Us Arrest Illegals
platoonDaddy
08-03-12, 11:30
This is pure bull shit! Hopefully the American people will wake up and throw this administration OUT on their ass.
*************
In essence, the supervising officers took on the role of a public defender.
“You had the supervisors intervening with the alien to assist the alien and counsel the alien on avoiding receiving a charging document,” he said.
The officer’s supervisors ordered the officer to release the illegal – an order the officer refused.
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/exclusive-ice-agent-faces-suspension-for-arresting-illegal-alien.html
"If a law enforcement officer can’t perform routine enforcement functions, what do we have a law enforcement agency for,” Crane wondered.
*******
Video from FoxNews: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/03/sen-sessions-wants-answers-after-ice-agent-suspended-for-arresting-illegal/
Doc Safari
08-03-12, 11:33
Sadly, this probably won't change until an OTM from a radical Muslim country sets off a dirty bomb somewhere and it can be proven that he was coddled through the US immigration system.
I don't even believe a new administration will do much because there seems to be a growing consensus among politicos that touching the immigration issue is a "third rail" that immediately costs you the Latino vote.
And we sure wouldn't want a landowner on the border to defend his property with guns or anything like that. We'd have to prosecute that bigoted sumbitch to the fullest extent of the law.
What a country we live in. Better brush up on your Spanish because you'll be speaking it soon.
CarlosDJackal
08-03-12, 12:10
Not surprising if you look at obama's voting base:
- black pussies... err... panthers
- welfare recipients
- socialists
- anti-America groups
- radical muslims
- ILLEGAL aliens
- dead people
Did I miss anyone?
My father entered the Border Patrol at El Paso in 1940. He retired in 1973 after 33 years of combined military and INS service. I started as an INS agent in 1972 after a hitch and retired in 1994 Agents could retired at age 50, and most did. The story was that the usual cause was a broken heart. Makes sense to me.
With one brief exception in 1954 ("Operation Wetback") immigration enforcement has always been a bad joke. No matter which party has been in power, it has always pandered to the interests of cheap, docile labor and/or cheap, docile votes. Teddy Kennedy's 1965 Immigration Act trashed the old quotas and kicked open the door to massive immigration of poorly educated, low skilled workers--undercutting the poorest US citizens. Combine that with a chronically lethargic INS management and you got what was widely known as the worst run agency in the entire government. From any perspective it looked like a downward spiral because it WAS one.
At least in the old days agents were straight shooters (in every sense of the word). We knew we worked for idiots, but we took our oaths seriously and did our damndest in spite of the obstacles thrown in our way. Bucking the system and working without resources or support was the norm. My first mentor was a dinosaur of the old school--but an honest man who told it like it was--once said "I know I can't catch 'em all...but they can't keep me from trying".
Well, Travis--from what I now hear they are doing exactly that. The bastards.:mad:
Sadly, this probably won't change until an OTM from a radical Muslim country sets off a dirty bomb somewhere and it can be proven that he was coddled through the US immigration system.
No way, that community is always given a pass. It would be blamed on the Tea Party or some-such.
platoonDaddy
08-03-12, 13:05
Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., wants answers after report surfaces that a US Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent faces punishment for arresting an illegal immigrant who was considered by supervisors as not a 'priority target.'
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/03/sen-sessions-wants-answers-after-ice-agent-suspended-for-arresting-illegal/
VooDoo6Actual
08-03-12, 15:18
NAPOLITANO ADMITS TERRORISTS ENTER AMERICA THROUGH MEXICAN BORDER
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/07/31/Napolitano-Admits-Terrorists-Enter-America-Through-Mexico-From-Time-To-Time
The best answer to this, the only answer, is for armed citizens to physically intervene, and enforce the law ourselves...And "uhh" we don't need any reforms at all, we just need to enforce the law that the treasonous fed is refusing to do!
As for you agents, this is treason that your superiors are committing here, understood, treason! The agent cited is a hero, and needs to be exalted as exactly that!
platoonDaddy
08-03-12, 16:15
As for you agents, this is treason that your superiors are committing here, understood, treason! The agent cited is a hero, and needs to be exalted as exactly that!
+1 AMEN!
I don't know if I'd go so far as treason, but it's absolutely an abdication of their oath of office and dereliction of duty! :mad:
Moose-Knuckle
08-03-12, 16:55
Why would you guys expect POTUS to arrest those who are going to vote for him?
VooDoo6Actual
08-03-12, 17:06
I can easily see the courts becoming more congested w/ civil & criminal issues regarding crimes against persons, crimes against property a whole array of other potential issues from this.
Going to get worst before it gets better Imo.
Doc Safari
08-03-12, 17:22
I can easily see the courts becoming more congested w/ civil & criminal issues regarding crimes against persons, crimes against property a whole array of other potential issues from this.
Going to get worst before it gets better Imo.
Some years ago a friend of mine suggested I look into the things that happened to rural people in South Africa when Apartheid ended. Not that anyone is defending Apartheid, but suffice it to say that hoardes of people who had been convinced of their unjust former treatment decided to take it out on the ranchers, landowners, and whatnot. There were some very stomach-churning massacres, to say the least. Some of the atrocities rivaled what you hear about drug cartel brutalities in Mexico.
It's hard not to see parallels.
Meanwhile back in this country, during the days of a now-defunct, pre-Minutemen organization known as Ranch Rescue, it was widely published in some of the survival magazines that Indian tribes along the US-Mexico border were arming themselves. I remember distinctly an image of a rather large brave standing guard on the reservation with some kind of AR clone strapped on. Wish I still had that photo. That guy was a poster child for our government's lack of border security if I ever saw it.
One hears rumors all the time of illegal alien or illegal alien-related violence against ranchers along the border. Even though my place is somewhat off the beaten path, when I hear certain tales I really wonder if I'm living in a fantasy world. I do not go out at night on my place without a weapon, and if I know I'm going to get more than a few yards from the house I carry the M4.
I have already made peace with the notion that I may have to "shoot, shovel, and shut up", although I do not want that outcome.
If the government will not give us a wall of bricks and mortar, then we may have to defend the border with a wall of lead.
Paranoid? I cite the old joke, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's nothing to be paranoid about."
Bullshit, is exactly what this article is. I am going to talk about this in generalities because if one does not have a well founded background and knowledge of the INA, I might as well be speaking French or Farsi here, you just wouldn't get it when it comes to the nuances of removability and functionality of the removal process.
If an ICE Agent, whether that be a Homeland Security Investigations Special Agent (criminal investigator) or an Enforcement and Removal Operations Agent (the admin "alien" side of the house., they used to be called Immigration Agents, I have no idea what they are called this week) determines alienage on an alien, that alien must be processed. The manner in which the alien entered the country dictates what the particular process entails, for instance, if an alien enters the country with a passport and is from a visa waiver country and they violate the terms of their admission, they can be put on the next airliner to their home country with little more than a memorandum done. If an alien enters illegally, depending on locale, like along the U.S./Mexican border, an alien might be offered voluntary removal or "VR" and be sent immediately to Mexico. The two examples above are easy, and cheap. Now, processing an alien who has been here for a long time, or had some kind of status dictates that the alien be put in "removal proceedings", and afforded their day in court.
Being in proceedings, getting an audience or ten before the immigration judge, or "IJ" is a process unto itself. There are three dockets at the nearest immigration court, detained docket or those aliens that are locked up, the non detained docket (pretty self explanatory), and the juvenile docket. Now here is the key part of this that this dipstick agent and Fox News just does not understand. There is a HUGE BACKLOG of aliens waiting to see the IJ, and just like civil and criminal court, there are appeals, remands, etc. Now, like it or not, all of these aliens waiting to see the IJ, they all have a right to due process. Putting them in proceedings without a chance to actually get to proceedings is a violation of that due process. SCOTUS does not like it when we violate due process rights, neither does the ACLU and every other group, who then sue the agency and its personnel to fix that. Aliens cannot be warehoused in prisons in the desert indefinitely, waiting to get on calendar, it does not work that way. Another key point to this is cost and space. Docket space, jail space, seat space on removal buses and planes, available deportation officers to escort this aliens to their home country (oh yes, they are turned over in cuffs upon landing, putting a bunch of people on a plane to a country they don't want to go to is a dangerous proposition, all of this costs money, and with an estimated 15,000,000 illegal Mexicans alone, removal proceedings (court) alone is a huge financial outlay.
All of this leads to the current state of affairs. The Obama administration, just like the Bush administrations (plural) that preceded it, is prioritizing on criminal aliens, until the backlog of cases can be whittled down. It is triage, plain and simple. That means, the worst first.
Now, hooking an alien isn't like a shoplifting or DUI collar, one does not just take them to the jail and fill out a charging document or a probable cause statement and go home, it doesn't work that way. The arresting officer has to complete about two dozen forms, print the guy, take his picture, submit his prints, take DNA. This is part of creating an alien, or "A" file, and a prosecution packet. Once a file/packet is created, a supervisor approves it, then a higher level supervisor (depends on where you are on who signs it) signs a removal order, which is akin to an arrest warrant, setting the legal(removal) process into motion. Now, earlier I said how the alien got here and what the alien wants to do, as well as what the law dictates, well all of that comes into play and decides what happens next.
Since there is no docket space to see the IJ (just like criminal matters, the DA cannot even remotely accept every case for prosecution, it just isn't physically possible, not enough attorneys, judges, slots on the calendar/docket, etc.; some cases are accepted, some are declined) the alien must either be detained, bonded, or removed if the alien waives proceedings. If the alien contests his removability, or the INA dictates that removal proceedings must be held, then that file/packet is sent over to the immigration court to begin the process.
This is where dipstick eff'ed up. THERE IS NO SPACE, ANYWHERE!!!. So, deciding arbitrarily to put an alien in proceedings and create an A file/prosecution packet for an assist Director/Director/Chief/Asst. Chief/whoever to sign when said official lacks bed space and the court lacks docket space just isn't a career enhancing move. Everywhere that anyone here works there are policies, there are chains of command, there are rules and regulations. Not doing what you are told to do, going against policy, acting a fool, none of this is smart, especially to make a point.
The reality of the situation is that when it comes to arrests and putting new aliens into the system the priority should be criminal aliens first and foremost. It is rational, it is smart, it serves the community, and it makes the most sense. It shouldn't be that hard for Fox and this idiot in the article to understand.
platoonDaddy
08-03-12, 21:11
A spokesperson for the Newark Police Dept. told Fox News that had an American citizen been stopped under the same circumstances – they would have been jailed. Sessions said that is a troubling revelation.
“Federal law enforcement should certainly not be giving illegal aliens more preferential treatment that is afforded American citizens,” Sessions wrote. “Your agency’s apparent treatment of the criminal alien sends the troubling message that the demands of public safety are trumped by the desire for reduced deportations of those deemed ‘not presidential priorities.’”
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/senator-ice-agent-facing-punishment-for-arresting-illegal.html
kmrtnsn, I waded through all those "nuances" for years. It's no secret that immigration law enforcement was essentially a flagwaving effort decades ago. We were the poorest of the poor relatives and periodically would "run out of money". Now I know about budgets, limited resources and priorities. Hell, we were targetting criminal illegals on our own while supervisors sat on their asses back in the office and pretended to work. Back then it was simply a matter of the agency not wanting to be too effective and rock the boat.
Now it's a matter of our masters (duly elected and appointed, God help us) actively sabotaging existing law and the wishes of the vast majority of citizens. If anything about this is to the benefit of the country at large, I'd damn sure like to know how. Maybe there are orders that ought NOT to be followed. :help:
Most supervisors and managers have already sold their souls to get their jobs, and so will do anything they are told by "higher authority"to keep them.
The line troops are probably the only ones left who have not been neutered and silenced.
The old timers that put up with me as a trainee may have been a bunch of characters, but they had horse sense and personal integrity. Most are long gone now, but if they knew how they had been betrayed they would rise up in righteous anger.
The rest of my thoughts are completely unprintable. I will be calling Sessions on Monday.
I don't know if I'd go so far as treason, but it's absolutely an abdication of their oath of office and dereliction of duty! :mad:
My friend we're talking about the refusal of the federal government to enforce the borders of the USA, completely shirking its sacred constitutional obligation to the states, while at the same time openly siding against its own lawful citizenry, thus encouraging, enabling, and protecting, tens of millions of illegal invaders with the expressed purpose of subverting the political process!
Do you understand? Its treason, period!
Bullshit, is exactly what this article is. I am going to talk about this in generalities because if one does not have a well founded background and knowledge of the INA, I might as well be speaking French or Farsi here, you just wouldn't get it when it comes to the nuances of removability and functionality of the removal process.
If an ICE Agent, whether that be a Homeland Security Investigations Special Agent (criminal investigator) or an Enforcement and Removal Operations Agent (the admin "alien" side of the house., they used to be called Immigration Agents, I have no idea what they are called this week) determines alienage on an alien, that alien must be processed. The manner in which the alien entered the country dictates what the particular process entails, for instance, if an alien enters the country with a passport and is from a visa waiver country and they violate the terms of their admission, they can be put on the next airliner to their home country with little more than a memorandum done. If an alien enters illegally, depending on locale, like along the U.S./Mexican border, an alien might be offered voluntary removal or "VR" and be sent immediately to Mexico. The two examples above are easy, and cheap. Now, processing an alien who has been here for a long time, or had some kind of status dictates that the alien be put in "removal proceedings", and afforded their day in court.
Being in proceedings, getting an audience or ten before the immigration judge, or "IJ" is a process unto itself. There are three dockets at the nearest immigration court, detained docket or those aliens that are locked up, the non detained docket (pretty self explanatory), and the juvenile docket. Now here is the key part of this that this dipstick agent and Fox News just does not understand. There is a HUGE BACKLOG of aliens waiting to see the IJ, and just like civil and criminal court, there are appeals, remands, etc. Now, like it or not, all of these aliens waiting to see the IJ, they all have a right to due process. Putting them in proceedings without a chance to actually get to proceedings is a violation of that due process. SCOTUS does not like it when we violate due process rights, neither does the ACLU and every other group, who then sue the agency and its personnel to fix that. Aliens cannot be warehoused in prisons in the desert indefinitely, waiting to get on calendar, it does not work that way. Another key point to this is cost and space. Docket space, jail space, seat space on removal buses and planes, available deportation officers to escort this aliens to their home country (oh yes, they are turned over in cuffs upon landing, putting a bunch of people on a plane to a country they don't want to go to is a dangerous proposition, all of this costs money, and with an estimated 15,000,000 illegal Mexicans alone, removal proceedings (court) alone is a huge financial outlay.
All of this leads to the current state of affairs. The Obama administration, just like the Bush administrations (plural) that preceded it, is prioritizing on criminal aliens, until the backlog of cases can be whittled down. It is triage, plain and simple. That means, the worst first.
Now, hooking an alien isn't like a shoplifting or DUI collar, one does not just take them to the jail and fill out a charging document or a probable cause statement and go home, it doesn't work that way. The arresting officer has to complete about two dozen forms, print the guy, take his picture, submit his prints, take DNA. This is part of creating an alien, or "A" file, and a prosecution packet. Once a file/packet is created, a supervisor approves it, then a higher level supervisor (depends on where you are on who signs it) signs a removal order, which is akin to an arrest warrant, setting the legal(removal) process into motion. Now, earlier I said how the alien got here and what the alien wants to do, as well as what the law dictates, well all of that comes into play and decides what happens next.
Since there is no docket space to see the IJ (just like criminal matters, the DA cannot even remotely accept every case for prosecution, it just isn't physically possible, not enough attorneys, judges, slots on the calendar/docket, etc.; some cases are accepted, some are declined) the alien must either be detained, bonded, or removed if the alien waives proceedings. If the alien contests his removability, or the INA dictates that removal proceedings must be held, then that file/packet is sent over to the immigration court to begin the process.
This is where dipstick eff'ed up. THERE IS NO SPACE, ANYWHERE!!!. So, deciding arbitrarily to put an alien in proceedings and create an A file/prosecution packet for an assist Director/Director/Chief/Asst. Chief/whoever to sign when said official lacks bed space and the court lacks docket space just isn't a career enhancing move. Everywhere that anyone here works there are policies, there are chains of command, there are rules and regulations. Not doing what you are told to do, going against policy, acting a fool, none of this is smart, especially to make a point.
The reality of the situation is that when it comes to arrests and putting new aliens into the system the priority should be criminal aliens first and foremost. It is rational, it is smart, it serves the community, and it makes the most sense. It shouldn't be that hard for Fox and this idiot in the article to understand.
We also happen to understand that shit will roll uphill if you shove hard enough. If you don't understand that, then perhaps you're in the wrong line of work? :confused:
We also happen to understand that shit will roll uphill if you shove hard enough. If you don't understand that, then perhaps you're in the wrong line of work? :confused:
Oh, I'd say I'm in the right line of work. I no longer work under the "I" side of the house, however, I do know how to use those "I" tools to the max when it comes to drug cases. Just because I work dope now doesn't mean I've lost touch with the "I" side and their problems. Having seen them, and worked them for years just gives me a little more perspective.
kmrtnsn, I waded through all those "nuances" for years. It's no secret that immigration law enforcement was essentially a flagwaving effort decades ago. We were the poorest of the poor relatives and periodically would "run out of money". Now I know about budgets, limited resources and priorities. Hell, we were targetting criminal illegals on our own while supervisors sat on their asses back in the office and pretended to work. Back then it was simply a matter of the agency not wanting to be too effective and rock the boat.
Now it's a matter of our masters (duly elected and appointed, God help us) actively sabotaging existing law and the wishes of the vast majority of citizens. If anything about this is to the benefit of the country at large, I'd damn sure like to know how. Maybe there are orders that ought NOT to be followed. :help:
Most supervisors and managers have already sold their souls to get their jobs, and so will do anything they are told by "higher authority"to keep them.
The line troops are probably the only ones left who have not been neutered and silenced.
The old timers that put up with me as a trainee may have been a bunch of characters, but they had horse sense and personal integrity. Most are long gone now, but if they knew how they had been betrayed they would rise up in righteous anger.
The rest of my thoughts are completely unprintable. I will be calling Sessions on Monday.
I hear what you are saying. I want a lot of things too. I want $100,000 to go up on some phones next quarter. I want 10 more GPS devices to track cars (now by warrant). I want unlimited access to a helicopter for aerial surveillance. I'd like to be able to spend about 20K a month in State and Local Over time (money paid to local departments to reimburse overtime expenses). Unfortunately, the money isn't there. I am told to work with what I have. I have to work within a framework of rules, regulations, budgets and priorities. Many times those priorities shift due to operational concerns, changes in the wind locally and in D.C., etc, but I understand I have to work within confines, I cannot free-range, doing what ever the hell I want to. That means getting in less surveillance, and less effective surveillance. It means sometimes targets are lost. It means things are going to take a lot longer and the more time spent on one crew means less time spent on another but I get it, I have to work with what I've got and to get the most bang for the buck with what I have. I bust my ass doing what I do, as do the officers and detectives that I am teamed up with. In a time when everyone has a shrinking budget and limited means we're out there doing the best we can.
The best answer to this, the only answer, is for armed citizens to physically intervene, and enforce the law ourselves...And "uhh" we don't need any reforms at all, we just need to enforce the law that the treasonous fed is refusing to do!
As for you agents, this is treason that your superiors are committing here, understood, treason! The agent cited is a hero, and needs to be exalted as exactly that!
if the citizenry wanted to start deporting people through less rigorous (read: administrative) means that would be a subsidy to the government, one badly needed.
the united states has a fixed budget for deportations every year. most of the people here complain about taxation. in order to deport more people, the deportation budget would need to expand. if people wanted to do it on their own, again that'd be a subsidy, but then people would start complaining about how the government isn't doing what it's being paid (via taxation) to do.
and how exactly would the citizenry verify citizenship? identity? cause to be in the united states? afterall, these reasons are why the process is so administratively intensive... would there be an uproar if the government deported a united states citizen? i think so.
A spokesperson for the Newark Police Dept. told Fox News that had an American citizen been stopped under the same circumstances – they would have been jailed. Sessions said that is a troubling revelation.
“Federal law enforcement should certainly not be giving illegal aliens more preferential treatment that is afforded American citizens,” Sessions wrote. “Your agency’s apparent treatment of the criminal alien sends the troubling message that the demands of public safety are trumped by the desire for reduced deportations of those deemed ‘not presidential priorities.’”
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/senator-ice-agent-facing-punishment-for-arresting-illegal.html
the problem is you must treat them with about as many rights as american citizens... because someday (that probably already happened and is the result of all the administrative processes) it might be a united states citizen that is about to be deported.
My friend we're talking about the refusal of the federal government to enforce the borders of the USA, completely shirking its sacred constitutional obligation to the states, while at the same time openly siding against its own lawful citizenry, thus encouraging, enabling, and protecting, tens of millions of illegal invaders with the expressed purpose of subverting the political process!
Do you understand? Its treason, period!
i don't know what exactly is constitutionally sacred about the borders. when this nation was founded, were the borders even well defined? were the immigration policies defined? i'm not saying the border doesn't have to be secure. i'm not saying that immigration laws need to be enforced.
i am asking how much money are you personally willing to spend on this? i'm also asking what do you actually truly believe is realistic or practical when it comes to border security.
in the land of goverment spending and the criticisms against it, immigration enforcement has got to be one of the LEAST _revenue_ generating. at least drug enforcement often captures drug proceeds. mind you i'm not saying that capturing illegal aliens isn't going to save the gov some money, the use of benefits by these individuals surely isn't insignificant. just trying to put a little genuine math into this discussion. let's do the numbers.
how much are you willing to allow the united states gov to spend on sealing off the border? and what do you think that can truly realistically achieve?
i don't know what exactly is constitutionally sacred about the borders. when this nation was founded, were the borders even well defined? were the immigration policies defined? i'm not saying the border doesn't have to be secure. i'm not saying that immigration laws need to be enforced.
i am asking how much money are you personally willing to spend on this? i'm also asking what do you actually truly believe is realistic or practical when it comes to border security.
in the land of goverment spending and the criticisms against it, immigration enforcement has got to be one of the LEAST _revenue_ generating. at least drug enforcement often captures drug proceeds. mind you i'm not saying that capturing illegal aliens isn't going to save the gov some money, the use of benefits by these individuals surely isn't insignificant. just trying to put a little genuine math into this discussion. let's do the numbers.
how much are you willing to allow the united states gov to spend on sealing off the border? and what do you think that can truly realistically achieve?
I can only think of one way to do it, and that would never fly in this country. Every time you catch an illegal alien in the country illegally, you seize everything they have except the clothes on their backs. You put them on recommissioned Navy vessels and ship them to southernmost port in Mexico, then offload them there.
The border will never be sealed. Ask the Chinese how well walls and fences work. The don't. Only by making the penalty for getting caught much worse, will you deter illegal immigration, and that shit won't fly in America.
It's not like you can bill Mexico, because we already prop that shithole up with our taxpayer dollars every year. :mad:
I can only think of one way to do it, and that would never fly in this country. Every time you catch an illegal alien in the country illegally, you seize everything they have except the clothes on their backs. You put them on recommissioned Navy vessels and ship them to southernmost port in Mexico, then offload them there.
The border will never be sealed. Ask the Chinese how well walls and fences work. The don't. Only by making the penalty for getting caught much worse, will you deter illegal immigration, and that shit won't fly in America.
It's not like you can bill Mexico, because we already prop that shithole up with our taxpayer dollars every year. :mad:
The repatriation by vessel sounds feasible on the face, however, the landing of such a vessel would require the acquiescence of the Mexican Government. Wait till the first time they say "no". Then what is your back-up plan? There currently are flights, known as JPATS, where some deportees are repatriated to Mexico City, again, having the GOM on board is key to making this happen. Flying 120 Mexicans at a time to Mexico City a couple times a week is not an inexpensive proposition either. What do you think 2-3,000 Mexicans at a time on a vessel, with a crew large enough to maintain order, on a four day cruise (eight-nine for the round trip) is going to cost per head? As for seizing "everything except what is on their backs" in my experience, that is about all that anyone is carrying. I've never seen much of a market for dirty, used, Mexican made clothing. For those that think sealing the southern border would be cheap, or easy, have you ever even seen it?
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