View Full Version : Game. Set. Match.
Doc Safari
08-03-12, 12:39
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/08/02/court-upholds-domestic-drone-use-in-arrest-of-american-citizen
Court Upholds Domestic Drone Use in Arrest of American Citizen
A judge denied a request to dismiss charges Wednesday against Rodney Brossart, a man arrested last year after a 16-hour standoff with police at his Lakota, N.D., ranch. Brossart's lawyer argued that law enforcement's "warrantless use of [an] unmanned military-like surveillance aircraft" and "outrageous governmental conduct" warranted dismissal of the case, according to court documents obtained by U.S. News.
John Villasenor, of the Washington, D.C.-based Brookings Institution, says the legality of domestic drone use likely stems from two Supreme Court cases that allow police to use "public, navigable airspace" for evidence gathering.
So now that you pathetic little sheeple know that you have no legal recourse, be advised that you shall pay for your insolence!!!!
I wonder how long it will be before they start storing jars of human scent from every citizen so that the dogs won't have any trouble finding you either?
:(
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/08/02/court-upholds-domestic-drone-use-in-arrest-of-american-citizen
So now that you pathetic little sheeple know that you have no legal recourse, be advised that you shall pay for your insolence!!!!
I wonder how long it will be before they start storing jars of human scent from every citizen so that the dogs won't have any trouble finding you either?
:(
They don't need dogs, we're gonna get GPS trackers in our heads, and the elimination of our evil backwards tax cuts will give them the money they need to give us all our own personal tracker drones too.
But it's for us and the good of our children. And opposing it makes you racist. And not having a GPS chip in your head will give you cancer and make you dumb and cause global warming.
:mad:
I'm gonna go cling to an assault rifle and quote scripture in my evil gas-guzzling truck while thinking about clubbing baby seals. Maybe then I'll go steal food from homeless people. I'm a crazy libertarian conservative who won't listen to the good people of the US federal government and ignore that dusty old constitution, so that's clearly what I do right?
:D :p
Moose-Knuckle
08-03-12, 16:58
Comforting huh?
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/obama-signs-bill-authorizing-30000-drones-over-america.jpg
I dislike that so much focus is on the type of aircraft being used. It would not be a story if LE had flown a manned plane or helicopter over during the standoff, because it was appropriate LE use of an aircraft.
The facts here just don't add up to the hype. The aircraft was used to provide intel during an armed standoff. It was not used to gather evidence. The standoff happened because the Sheriff with a search warrant was allegedly confronted by armed family members.
Bring me the long term surveillance of an individual without a warrant being used for PC/evidence if you want me concerned, but I won't be concerned about the type of aircraft used...
I dislike that so much focus is on the type of aircraft being used. It would not be a story if LE had flown a manned plane or helicopter over during the standoff, because it was appropriate LE use of an aircraft.
The facts here just don't add up to the hype. The aircraft was used to provide intel during an armed standoff. It was not used to gather evidence. The standoff happened because the Sheriff with a search warrant was allegedly confronted by armed family members.
Bring me the long term surveillance of an individual without a warrant being used for PC/evidence if you want me concerned, but I won't be concerned about the type of aircraft used...
No, its a big deal, a very big deal! It opens up a whole new Pandoras box of police state totalitarianism, the Gestapo, Stasi, NKVD, Khmer Rouge et al.. theyl would all know exactly what such invasive technology was intended for. LE in the USA needs to be halved or better, this was all too predictable...I'm looking forward to the upcoming civil war, there is no hope for liberty other then that, none at all....
Doc Safari
08-03-12, 17:35
I dislike that so much focus is on the type of aircraft being used. It would not be a story if LE had flown a manned plane or helicopter over during the standoff, because it was appropriate LE use of an aircraft.
The facts here just don't add up to the hype. The aircraft was used to provide intel during an armed standoff. It was not used to gather evidence. The standoff happened because the Sheriff with a search warrant was allegedly confronted by armed family members.
Bring me the long term surveillance of an individual without a warrant being used for PC/evidence if you want me concerned, but I won't be concerned about the type of aircraft used...
My concern is that the legal system is already apparently on board with drone surveillance based on precedent established for manned aircraft, and abuse will happen (you can count on it).
Using a manned surveillance aircraft requires you involve at least one more person. That person or persons might object if he was being asked to violate another person's Constitutional rights. That is one more chance that an illegal and unConstitutional use of a surveillance aircraft will be stopped before it happens.
An unmanned drone cannot object to violating someone's rights. It obeys at the push of a few buttons. It gives the person controlling it an "instant search warrant" if you will.
That is why the type of aircraft is important, IMHO.
Agree or disagree, that's what we're here for. :)
Personally, I very much see the utility in unmanned drones for search and rescue.
My problem is that the device will be an irresistable temptation for some marginally (or outright) dishonest government entities to use it to skirt the rules.
Just out of curiosity... What is the difference between a helicopter, plane, unmarked car, decoy vehicle, boat, satellite, bike, motor cycle, jet ski etc, etc and a drone when used by LE?
No, its a big deal, a very big deal! It opens up a whole new Pandoras box of police state totalitarianism, the Gestapo, Stasi, NKVD, Khmer Rouge et al.. theyl would all know exactly what such invasive technology was intended for. LE in the USA needs to be halved or better, this was all too predictable...I'm looking forward to the upcoming civil war, there is no hope for liberty other then that, none at all....
Holy hell dude? Really?
Just out of curiosity... What is the difference between a helicopter, plane, unmarked car, decoy vehicle, boat, satellite, bike, motor cycle, jet ski etc, etc and a drone when used by LE?
This sounds like the start to a cop=pigs joke. :stop:
Using a manned surveillance aircraft requires you involve at least one more person. That person or persons might object if he was being asked to violate another person's Constitutional rights. That is one more chance that an illegal and unConstitutional use of a surveillance aircraft will be stopped before it happens.
An unmanned drone cannot object to violating someone's rights. It obeys at the push of a few buttons. It gives the person controlling it an "instant search warrant" if you will.
My problem is that the device will be an irresistable temptation for some marginally (or outright) dishonest government entities to use it to skirt the rules.
The person controlling the unmanned aircraft is no different than the person flying a helicopter, airplane or what have you. It's not all push button and off it goes. There's still a human being that can think and reason behind it. Will there be abuses of this technology? I have no doubt there will, but it's still a human pilots responsibility.
Moose-Knuckle
08-03-12, 19:00
Just out of curiosity... What is the difference between a helicopter, plane, unmarked car, decoy vehicle, boat, satellite, bike, motor cycle, jet ski etc, etc and a drone when used by LE?
Probably has something to do with the fact that UAV programs evolved from the clandestine services for spying and assassinations. UAVs can and will monitor private property with much greater loiter times than a LE helicopter. They are on par with NRO’s satellites in this regard with the exception they don’t have to contend with the whole pesky Earth rotation thing.
GeorgiaBoy
08-03-12, 19:08
I think we really need to differentiate between government use of drones, and drone use by LE.
The use of drones by the government to essentially "spy" on random individuals, track their movements, track their patterns, and LOOK for wrongdoing does indeed scare me. Drones are easier to use use of this type of surveillance, like satellites.
However, in the use of drones in situations like those presented in the OP's story, I don't see it being that big of a deal. As long as the drone's aren't collecting data and evidence to convict, but are simply surveilling what is going on, I see nothing wrong. As was noted before, unmarked cars, boats, helicopters, planes, undercover officers, ect. have been used for decades to surveil possible criminals and surveil while actions are being taken to take down said criminals.
The fact that these planes are "unmanned" and have previously been used only to target and surveil terrorists and the like, scares most people. However, there are plenty of very helpful scenarios where these planes can be effectively used domestically, most notably in search and rescue. Larger planes may be built to help fight forest fires eventually.
Drones are simply the product of advancements in technology. While they are essentially "unmanned" in the air, they are still fully controlled by some guy(s) on the ground. They aren't robots mindlessly surveilling.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-12, 19:10
Bring me the long term surveillance of an individual without a warrant being used for PC/evidence if you want me concerned, but I won't be concerned about the type of aircraft used...
.
Just out of curiosity... What is the difference between a helicopter, plane, unmarked car, decoy vehicle, boat, satellite, bike, motor cycle, jet ski etc, etc and a drone when used by LE?
The issue I have is that you can get a mass of automated drones out there collecting information. I think our legal system is based on people actually observing or filing a complaint about someone breaking the law. At the extreme you have speed limit laws that are violated by almost everyone and life goes on just fine. Cops pull over, for the most part, the most egregious violaters- there are just many violators to pull everyone over. Automation of survielance means that you can start to issue citations to everyone that breaks the law. But like I said, our legal system wasn't really set up to capture every single violation and prosecute it.
How many laws do we have? The number is not really known. If you can inexpensively monitor people so that you can cite them for every violation of every law with out incurring the expense of limited manpower- that is a pretty scary proposition. That will keep the Post office busy.
OR you have a scenario where people are singled out for 100% law enforcement- which no one could survive.
We are at this 'carbon fibre sky' scenario when people are getting cuff'd and stuff'd for using their iPhones to video police officers.
Doc Safari
08-03-12, 19:19
The person controlling the unmanned aircraft is no different than the person flying a helicopter, airplane or what have you. It's not all push button and off it goes. There's still a human being that can think and reason behind it. Will there be abuses of this technology? I have no doubt there will, but it's still a human pilots responsibility.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not an SME on unmanned drones. I seem to remember hearing or reading that some of the modern ones are not much bigger than a hummingbird. Technology keeps changing. There may very well be some "fire and forget" drones out there. Push a button, and it comes back with pictures three days later. I'm not saying that exists yet, because I don't know, but even if it doesn't I do not believe it's that far off.
Moose-Knuckle
08-03-12, 19:19
I think we really need to differentiate between government use of drones, and drone use by LE.
This begs the question; 'Who is flying them and where is the data going?'
Something tells me your local patrolmen and or county deputy are not at the helm.
Most PDs/SOs cannot afford air assests as it is much less a $4,000,000.00 GA's RQ-1/MQ-1.
Probably has something to do with the fact that UAV programs evolved from the clandestine services for spying and assassinations. UAVs can and will monitor private property with much greater loiter times than a LE helicopter. They are on par with NRO’s satellites in this regard with the exception they don’t have to contend with the whole pesky Earth rotation thing.
Couldn't the state LE simply go HUMNIT and gather the same intel as they could get from the drone? If it's doing the same task that a person using a different tool would be doing, how is it anymore invasive?
Lets say a drone is used to find a crop of pot, does it matter that a drone found it instead of an airplane, field agent or helo? How would using the drone be more invasive than the alternatives? It just seems to be a natural progression in technology, it's doing the same thing that they are currently doing, but this time its doing it by remote control.
Genuinely curios, and I'm not just trying to start a shit storm with the black copter, tin foil crowd...
.
The issue I have is that you can get a mass of automated drones out there collecting information. I think our legal system is based on people actually observing or filing a complaint about someone breaking the law. At the extreme you have speed limit laws that are violated by almost everyone and life goes on just fine. Cops pull over, for the most part, the most egregious violaters- there are just many violators to pull everyone over. Automation of survielance means that you can start to issue citations to everyone that breaks the law. But like I said, our legal system wasn't really set up to capture every single violation and prosecute it.
How many laws do we have? The number is not really known. If you can inexpensively monitor people so that you can cite them for every violation of every law with out incurring the expense of limited manpower- that is a pretty scary proposition. That will keep the Post office busy.
OR you have a scenario where people are singled out for 100% law enforcement- which no one could survive.
We are at this 'carbon fibre sky' scenario when people are getting cuff'd and stuff'd for using their iPhones to video police officers.
Interesting point. Using that point, wouldn't it be similar or the same as a traffic cam? It catches every offender, where without it you only get caught by "chance"....
Moose-Knuckle
08-03-12, 20:32
Couldn't the state LE simply go HUMNIT and gather the same intel as they could get from the drone? If it's doing the same task that a person using a different tool would be doing, how is it anymore invasive?
Lets say a drone is used to find a crop of pot, does it matter that a drone found it instead of an airplane, field agent or helo? How would using the drone be more invasive than the alternatives? It just seems to be a natural progression in technology, it's doing the same thing that they are currently doing, but this time its doing it by remote control.
Genuinely curios, and I'm not just trying to start a shit storm with the black copter, tin foil crowd...
Hey that whole black helicopter thing is null and void now after the OBL raid. :secret:;)
No shit storm on my end, just a friendly chat.
You bring up some valid points and the whole thing appears to be harmless when you look at the current and past modes of LE in this country. With drones we have issues concerning Consititional rights; warrants, probable cause, et al. I believe there was a thread on the legal aspects already but I could be mistaken.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not an SME on unmanned drones. I seem to remember hearing or reading that some of the modern ones are not much bigger than a hummingbird. Technology keeps changing. There may very well be some "fire and forget" drones out there. Push a button, and it comes back with pictures three days later. I'm not saying that exists yet, because I don't know, but even if it doesn't I do not believe it's that far off.
While I have no doubt there is some sort of conceptual/prototype out there for a so called 'fire and forget' UAV, I can say with dead certainty that those that are currently in use have a human pilot controlling them. The reason I know this is because I'm a certified operator for 2 of the small UAVs the Army uses. Technology does keep changing, but currently the systems that I know of in use with LE are the same systems I'm certified on. What the next 10 yrs have in store I have no clue.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-04-12, 01:51
Interesting point. Using that point, wouldn't it be similar or the same as a traffic cam? It catches every offender, where without it you only get caught by "chance"....
Think if the red light cams checked speed, seatbelts, registration, headlight status, tire tread depth... and then take that level of investigation and make it happen anywhere- and realize how often automated systems make mistakes.
One complaint about police service is that it is minutes away when seconds count. What if the govt tries to get into the 'seconds from protection' business with drones that will interfere in criminal activity- or what it considers criminal activity. You could then get people saying that we don't need the right to fire arms because the drones are there to protect us all the time. Or pressure to open our lives more to surviellance in the name of security. People trade freedom for security all the time.
I know that is far fetched, but perhaps not far off. When you start to roll out this new technology you have to consider where it is going, not just what it replaces.
Drones are a great technology. If it were cheap enough and reliable enough I'd have one running top cover for my kids 24/7 whenever they leave the house by themselves. It is just how they are used.
Eurodriver
08-04-12, 07:08
Some of you guys are just out there.
Yesterday I got lazed while speeding. Ironically, I wasn't pulled over despite going 25 MPH over the limit. Its a scary thing when cops can sit in vehicles and chase you if you break the law!
http://i.qkme.me/35mk4d.jpg
Early on oveseas drones weren't allowed to be armed either.
Pure observation.
Now its death by video game remote control.
Doesn't anyone really think that before long an LE agency might decide to try that route instead of risking officers on the ground in certain scenarios?
1st it'll be some holdout situation being resolved by eratication after LEA gets permission to call in a .mil that happens to be nearby out on range training flight.
Ideally by selectively picking off 1-2 bad guys rather than wiping out a whole house. (technology yet to be perfected I believe?)
And then a big follow-on court case to decide the legitimacy.
Once the case is decided in favor of the 'save just one life' crowd, seeing armed drones over cities and towns will become just another bit of background noise for follow on generations.
After all, if you're not doing anything wrong then there's nothing to worry about is there.
I'm not saying next week or even next year, but I'd lay odds that barring things going all egg shaped prior that within a decade they'll be up there in use for use with more or less open ended 'at discretion' engagement polices.
SWAT team goes out? Sniper drone in orbit overhead.
A few weeks/months later, they are cleared for regular patrol use as force mulitpliers claiming to be there to help make up for short handed departments work load and to speed reaction time for SWAT type units by having stuff already up there instead of on standby waiting to be launched.
After all, a purely obsevation rigged drone can't really help in a 'right-now' situation, but an armed one could save a life immediately, right?
Laugh if you want.
I really hope I'm just being stupid paranoid and its all just one big joke, and down the road we can all play the 'remember that cockamaimy idea you had' game.
But somehow I don't think I'm too far off base with the only serious descrepancy being timeline.
NCPatrolAR
08-04-12, 10:08
http://regmedia.co.uk/2005/09/23/black_helicopter_shirt.gif
I swear this line of "thinking" gets worse each time there's a democrat in office. I'm surprised no one has shown pictures of the vast storage areas of foreign military equipment stored CONUS for the NWO to use against us. :secret:
Nathan_Bell
08-04-12, 10:09
The person controlling the unmanned aircraft is no different than the person flying a helicopter, airplane or what have you. It's not all push button and off it goes. There's still a human being that can think and reason behind it. Will there be abuses of this technology? I have no doubt there will, but it's still a human pilots responsibility.
Please go re-read Grossman's "On Killing" you failed to understand it.
You have had the chance to see the video feeds from Predators being used in the ME. Little white splodges that do not really look like people at all.
It completely depersonalizes the targets.
Do you not think that a RPV pilot in an air conditioned base hundreds or thousands of miles away from their fellow citizens might emotionally distance themselves enough from the people they are observing to not even have the fact they are spying on a fellow citizen trickling into their moral prism?
A manned aircraft pilot will be in the area and putting his own eyes on the person, bringing the emotional level closer, perhaps close enough for them to realize they might be doing something wrong, legal, but wrong none the less.
Doc Safari
08-04-12, 15:38
I swear this line of "thinking" gets worse each time there's a democrat in office.
And justifiably so IMHO. Every time you turn on the news they want to do everything from banning baby formula to registering our guns with the UN.
How can you not be a little paranoid about all of it?
I'm not with the Alex Jones crowd that everything is a conspiracy and whatnot, but this bunch has already pulled enough shenanigans that I want to watch every effing thing they do.
NCPatrolAR
08-04-12, 18:07
How can you not be a little paranoid about all of it?
Because I stopped believing in conspiracys once my testicles descended.
It's find to be skeptical of some things; but the whole paranoia thing (to include the associated twisting of news stories) is what causes people to dismiss the legitimate issues.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-04-12, 18:08
http://regmedia.co.uk/2005/09/23/black_helicopter_shirt.gif
I swear this line of "thinking" gets worse each time there's a democrat in office. I'm surprised no one has shown pictures of the vast storage areas of foreign military equipment stored CONUS for the NWO to use against us. :secret:
I have only spoken about technology. Its minaturization in both size and cost along with the lowering of cost and the increasing sophistication of database mining. And it isn't just drones, its black boxes in cars, cellphone records and credit card purchases. The drone just puts it all into a nice high-rez telephoto image stabilized picture.
Twenty years ago who would have thought that the police would say it is totally normal to throw a mobile tracker onto someones car.
I'm just pointing out what is capable of happening- with things that aren't that esoteric or high-tech.
But you have to ask yourself- when has the govenment not used new technology to collect information about citizens? It may be for the best of intentions to stop the worst of villians- but we never look at a tool and pass on its use- history is clear.
If you are going to try to belittle us, at least do it right and have a Black UAV warning sign.
NCPatrolAR
08-04-12, 18:57
I have only spoken about technology. Its minaturization in both size and cost along with the lowering of cost and the increasing sophistication of database mining. And it isn't just drones, its black boxes in cars, cellphone records and credit card purchases. The drone just puts it all into a nice high-rez telephoto image stabilized picture.
Twenty years ago who would have thought that the police would say it is totally normal to throw a mobile tracker onto someones car.
I'm just pointing out what is capable of happening- with things that aren't that esoteric or high-tech.
But you have to ask yourself- when has the govenment not used new technology to collect information about citizens? It may be for the best of intentions to stop the worst of villians- but we never look at a tool and pass on its use- history is clear.
If you are going to try to belittle us, at least do it right and have a Black UAV warning sign.
And just like with GPS trackers on cars, using thermal imaging on houses, etc there will be controls put in place. And no; I don't think you'll ever see armed UAVs doing CAS for LEOs
And no need for a black UAV; the helicopter image is fitting
I wonder how long it will be before they start storing jars of human scent from every citizen so that the dogs won't have any trouble finding you either?
:(
you forgot:
finger printing
retinal scans
DNA
and with the cell phone tapping a way to make sure they know your cell info and will be required to update any cell phone info change to them :)
at this point I would not put anything past the gov I dont think this is going to happen but if it does I wont be shocked if they TRY to get it through but think it wont happen
our privacy and rights are sinking quickly though !
the drone thing ? yeah I also view it like a helicopter but at the same time they got the foot in the door the new way for them to watch us !!
Moose-Knuckle
08-04-12, 21:10
Some of you guys are just out there.
Yesterday I got lazed while speeding. Ironically, I wasn't pulled over despite going 25 MPH over the limit. Its a scary thing when cops can sit in vehicles and chase you if you break the law!
http://i.qkme.me/35mk4d.jpg
I surmise you find this more to your liking?
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/head-in-sand.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
08-04-12, 21:12
http://regmedia.co.uk/2005/09/23/black_helicopter_shirt.gif
You’re right, they don’t exist! :secret:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/Stealth_Black_Hawk_UBL_Kill_Op_2.jpg
Please go re-read Grossman's "On Killing" you failed to understand it.
You have had the chance to see the video feeds from Predators being used in the ME. Little white splodges that do not really look like people at all.
It completely depersonalizes the targets.
Do you not think that a RPV pilot in an air conditioned base hundreds or thousands of miles away from their fellow citizens might emotionally distance themselves enough from the people they are observing to not even have the fact they are spying on a fellow citizen trickling into their moral prism?
A manned aircraft pilot will be in the area and putting his own eyes on the person, bringing the emotional level closer, perhaps close enough for them to realize they might be doing something wrong, legal, but wrong none the less.
I understand that the depersonalization of a target is possible, but it's also possible with helicopter and fighter pilots too. I acknowledge that these systems have a video game like quality, but so do modern aircraft. Just as with manned aircraft there are procedures in place that restrict the use of these systems.
I'm an Infantryman who's also trained as a Raven and Puma UAV operator. These are the systems that I'm referring to in my comments. These are also the systems that I know of that are currently in use with some LE agencies. I've flown these aircraft stateside and in Afghanistan. It's a HHHUUGE pain in the ass just to get approval to fly these things here they're so restricted by the FAA. That is slowly changing, but no matter the changes you will still have to request airspace, file flight plans and get approval before flying them. Also, to my knowledge, you can't just get approval for an unlimited amount of flight time. You only have the requested airspace for a set amount of time. Right now the potential for the misuse of these aircraft is very limited, but I agree it can grow. I also believe that they can be used well i.e. SAR. The restrictions on these aircraft are the limiting factor on misuse potential at this time, but as restrictions loosen I'm sure some sort of criteria will need to be set to prevent them from being inappropriately employed.
Also, one last thing. You are in error in believing I failed at understanding Lt Col Grossman's book. I gave my copy to my wife in the hopes of giving her some insight as to why I have issues after deployments :smile:
No, its a big deal, a very big deal! It opens up a whole new Pandoras box of police state totalitarianism, the Gestapo, Stasi, NKVD, Khmer Rouge et al.. theyl would all know exactly what such invasive technology was intended for. LE in the USA needs to be halved or better, this was all too predictable...I'm looking forward to the upcoming civil war, there is no hope for liberty other then that, none at all....
That's some brainndead bullshit right there.
Step away from inforwars and live in the real world. Halved or better. Jesus Christ.
CarlosDJackal
08-07-12, 08:09
Just out of curiosity... What is the difference between a helicopter, plane, unmarked car, decoy vehicle, boat, satellite, bike, motor cycle, jet ski etc, etc and a drone when used by LE?
Politics and tin foil hats aside, I don't understand the big deal as long as it is not used for Warrant-less surveillance inside people's (which is not what happened to this idiot).
I stopped believing in conspiracys once my testicles descended.
Congratulations!!!
you win nothing
Fast and Furious was a real, actual conspiracy. You think powerful people always make decisions in our best interests in full view of the public? Please.
Having said that:
There have been legal precedents regarding how low a police aircraft can loiter over property before its a violation of privacy. I want to say 100 feet, but don't quote me on that. Anywho, get this idea that drones the size of pizza boxes are hovering 5 feet off the ground and flying into your garage and looking at your tool bench out of your heads. As others have said, they're higher up where a chopper would be. There's no reasonable expectation of privacy from the air, except within 100 feet above the ground, I think.
Voodoochild
08-07-12, 09:07
No, its a big deal, a very big deal! It opens up a whole new Pandoras box of police state totalitarianism, the Gestapo, Stasi, NKVD, Khmer Rouge et al.. theyl would all know exactly what such invasive technology was intended for. LE in the USA needs to be halved or better, this was all too predictable...I'm looking forward to the upcoming civil war, there is no hope for liberty other then that, none at all....
Lighten up Francis. LEO get a bad rap but not all are bad. They get paid shit salary and deal with the most.****ed stuff. I am glad they are.out there.
Army Chief
08-07-12, 09:18
Gentlemen,
Are we headed anywhere productive with this? Granted, I do recognize the value of an occasional airing of grievances, but I get the sense that we've rounded a corner where even the most optimistic of us would be hard-pressed to envision a positive outcome.
Putting a temp lock on this to allow us to get some distance between the issues and the ire.
AC
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