View Full Version : Question on the Beretta M9A1...
When the Marines bought the M9A1, did it have to go through the complete series of qualification testing or was it given a pass because it was essentially a modified M9?
Given a pass, since it's just a modified M9.
Failure2Stop
08-04-12, 11:02
It's not a "pass", modification does not require the same acquisitions steps as an entirely new platform, otherwise our would have taken forever to get from the M16 to the M16A4, and we would still be waiting on the M4.
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So, some sort of abbreviated testing?
That would be my guess.
They may have skipped the testing process and just bought it as an existing weapons system.
Questions involved would have included: Is there weapon specific training involved, or can a current M9 shooter pick one up and be good to go.
My guess is the average guy/gal can switch from the M9 to a M9A1 with no additional training, the "additional" training would come from learning how to use whatever attachments are needed for a mission.
I am also willing to be the average Acquisitions guy/gal would be totally clueless and the M9A1 would equate to M9 in their heads.
An older Beretta press release from a Web search:
U.S. Marines Add to M9A1 Inventory
Beretta to complete pistol system deliveries in 2006
ACCOKEEK, MD—July 29, 2006—Beretta USA today announced that it has received another order from the United States Marine Corps for the M9A1 pistol system. The pistol system consists of the Beretta M9A1 pistol, a tactical holster from Blackhawk products Group, and Beretta’s specially designed sand-resistant PVD magazines.
“This brings the total number of M9A1’s ordered by the Marines to over 7,500 in the last 12 months,” stated E. Scott Blackwell, Vice President and Division Manager – Manufacturing & Product Development for Beretta USA.
The M9A1 9mm pistol evolved from the base design of the Beretta produced M9 pistol, currently being fielded by all service branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. The M9A1 was developed with input from various U.S. Military and Law Enforcement personnel keeping the proven attributes and reliability of the battle-tested M9, with added enhancements. At their suggestion a Picatinny rail was added for the attachment of tactical lights and/or laser aiming devices, and radical cross-checkering was applied to the front and back straps to allow for enhanced grip-ability in adverse conditions.
Additionally, the M9A1 embodies an aggressive bevel to the magazine well of the frame, to enable fast tactical reloads in combat situations of the new sand-resistant PVD-coated magazines. Beretta designed these new magazines after testing in the harsh conditions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Included as part of the M9A1 pistol system is a Blackhawk Products Group holster. The holster to be supplied is based off of Blackhawk's popular CQC™ SERPA system, and will be supplied in a Coyote Tan color.
If Beretta completed M9A1 deliveries at 7500 weapons in 2006, then it doesn't seem like all that many were procured in the initial contracts. Presumably this is a fairly limited-issue weapon?
theblackknight
08-04-12, 14:56
I've never seen one.
sent from my gun using my sights
Failure2Stop
08-04-12, 15:18
I've never seen one.
Yeah, for what it's worth, actual presence is very low.
Not familiar with USMC organization/units, but here a unit called a FAST team is practicing with them:
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/m9a1-pistols.jpg
Failure2Stop
08-04-12, 17:36
Actually, those aren't A1s.
The one closet to the camera has an easily identified adaptor.
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GrandPooba
08-04-12, 19:08
why are soldiers mandated to carry the M9 safety on? it is an excessively safe and unnecessary method. If the M11 has no safety, why aren't they allowed to use it the M9 safety/decocker as a decocker only?
Failure2Stop
08-04-12, 20:08
why are soldiers mandated to carry the M9 safety on? it is an excessively safe and unnecessary method. If the M11 has no safety, why aren't they allowed to use it the M9 safety/decocker as a decocker only?
It is frequently carried decocked and off safe. That being said, most people that carry an M9 should not even be carrying it with a magazine inserted, let alone off safe.
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From Beretta's press release:
“Between the U.S. Marines and other US Law Enforcement customers, we have sold well over 10,000 of the M9A1’s in 2006."
I wouldn't imagine there would be that many LE agencies (Federal or otherwise) that use the M9A1.
Failure2Stop
08-04-12, 22:26
I know that there are extremely few in the USMC. And I'm not trying to sell anybody anything.
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Failure2Stop
08-04-12, 22:29
Really, I don't know why you keep hitting back on this, are you trying to "prove me wrong" on something or are you looking for answers on something?
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When the Marines bought the M9A1, did it have to go through the complete series of qualification testing or was it given a pass because it was essentially a modified M9?
In between. It's not a major modification nor a new design, in and of itself. Whether or not a mod to an existing system (ANY system) requires one sort of testing or another is not a yes/no question; there's an analysis conducted to determine that sort of thing, for good or ill.
There might be as many as 4000 billet-holders that'll ever see an M9A1, so it's not common because there aren't enough meat-eaters that regularly use a light on their pistols to rate a wholesale replacement of M9s. Add in the fact that there's already an active contract to purchase M9s to replace those at the end of their service life and to replace "other" losses...
FAST = Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Team. FAST Companies are part of the Marine Corps Security Force Regiment. Think of a police SWAT team, only one that doesn't serve warrants and where taking prisoners is an understandable afterthought (one of their missions is nuclear material/facility recovery).
...and that's a photo of a M9 with an adapter for a PEQ-6, not an M9A1 with an integral-to-the-frame rail; look at the front of the trigger guard, and how much thicker it looks than the others.
Black goat
08-05-12, 00:52
I have no real expertise on how this acquisition process is handled, but I would assume that if the USMC took the design they adopted long ago and requested specific alterations with no other changes to the contract gun it would be a relatively (compared to a whole new bid) simple procedure. It would seem that all there would be is to lay out the only changes to be made to the existing contract gun and work out the procurement details.
Really, I don't know why you keep hitting back on this, are you trying to "prove me wrong" on something or are you looking for answers on something?
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Hitting back? No offense intended. Just trying to add to what I thought was an interesting discussion on a pistol that doesn't get all that much publicity.
Failure2Stop
08-05-12, 10:40
Hitting back? No offense intended. Just trying to add to what I thought was an interesting discussion on a pistol that doesn't get all that much publicity.
Sorry, wrote that hastily, didn't mean to imply that I was offended. What I was getting at is that there aren't a lot of questions, but quite a few statements, which makes it hard to understand where you ate coming from.
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One question had occurred to me (and I stand to be corrected on this one):
Given that the M9/M9A1 appears to be the most universally despised small arm in DoD, over the years I've probably heard fewer complaints from USMC personnel than from the other services. Is this just because of the proportionally smaller number of M9-armed Marines, better maintenance practices, or is this just a misperception?
Something interesting I noticed is that this variation of the Beretta (reportedly) is using a plastic guide rod. What's up with that? That's a step backwards, in my book.
Unlikely that you'd ever need to replace it, I'm sure, but an all steel guide rod is extra insurance in my book. I know a lot of guys like to upgrade their Glock guide rods from the stock plastic to a steel guide rod. I prefer steel guide rods myself as I have actually seen a plastic one break and definitely what I would call 'prematurely'.
As far as I'm aware, ALL 92 series guns come with plastic guide rods nowadays, even the .mil ones.
BrigandTwoFour
08-05-12, 12:38
I don't see any issue with the plastic guide rod. Hell, my 1911 has served many thousands of rounds, and doesn't have a guide rod (I know, I know....different design).
For the true believers, metal guide rods can be purchased. But I've never felt the need with my 92A1
As far as I'm aware, ALL 92 series guns come with plastic guide rods nowadays, even the .mil ones.
Interesting. Sounds like a cost cutting measure, obviously. I thought this was unique to this particular version but I guess it makes sense that all recent product Beretta's use a plastic rod..
Beretta used to claim (and I don't know if this is still the case) that they use no MIM parts in the 92 series, although they do use polymer and polymer-coated metal.
High Tower
08-05-12, 14:15
One question had occurred to me (and I stand to be corrected on this one):
Given that the M9/M9A1 appears to be the most universally despised small arm in DoD, over the years I've probably heard fewer complaints from USMC personnel than from the other services. Is this just because of the proportionally smaller number of M9-armed Marines, better maintenance practices, or is this just a misperception?
I'm sure this has a lot to do with it. But if they are issued oem mag's, that clears up a lot of issues right there. The 92 works fine if it is kept clean, is oiled, and you have factory or other quality mag's.
Well, the Marines bought the so-called "sand resistant" PVD mags from Beretta with their M9A1's, so I'm sure that helped to some extent. Heck, those things are around $50 each if you bought them from your local establishment.
why are soldiers mandated to carry the M9 safety on? it is an excessively safe and unnecessary method. If the M11 has no safety, why aren't they allowed to use it the M9 safety/decocker as a decocker only?
Much of that is driven by service and unit policy. Things may have changed in the last few years, but when I was in the Air Force we carried with a round chambered and safety off. Because the safety was tough to reach, the AF policy was to use it only as a decocker. Friends and colleagues in the Army were told to carry with an empty chamber, full mag. My friends in the Marines had a chambered round but safety on.
on this point, one of the reasons for adopting a pistol designed like the beretta was you could put the pistol on safe and perform all loading and unloading procedures with the safety on. Considering the dismal amount of training given to troops on pistol use, this makes sense. the various services have different standards on how they carry the weapon. In my combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan the policy outside the wire was chambered round safety on. Having trained and shot a Beretta extensively using the safe off as a starting point, I violated policy by carrying chambered round hammer down off safe. My holster covered the safety so it wasn't seen so no one gave me a hard time about it. Also when deployed various bases have what is called arming levels- some bases are green- completely empty gun carried but you have to carry ammo with you, Amber- full mag in gun but empty chamber, or red fully loaded and safety on.Beleive it or not at some of the large bases like bagram, they found people were carrying weapons but not ammo (at the time it was a "green" base) and they changed carry status to amber just to make sure everyone had at least a mag of ammo with them all the time.
It is frequently carried decocked and off safe. That being said, most people that carry an M9 should not even be carrying it with a magazine inserted, let alone off safe.
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Military cynicism five.
Interesting. Sounds like a cost cutting measure, obviously. I thought this was unique to this particular version but I guess it makes sense that all recent product Beretta's use a plastic rod..
Yea, all but the compact models have polymer guiderods now. Even the M9s sent to the military.
The claim (from Beretta) is that the ribs on the polymer guiderod allows for sand to come off easier than on a smooth surfaced metal guiderod. Also, they claim lubrication for the recoil spring isn't necessary with the polymer guiderod.
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