View Full Version : Eat more Chikin!!
CarlosDJackal
08-04-12, 09:13
I don't know about everyone else, but I am so sick of what has happened because of the Chick-fil-A controversy. With the crappy economy, all the unemployment, the violence, and the dysfunctional government; I can't believe how much venom self-proclaimed "tolerant" individuals are espousing for the following comments:
“Guilty as charged,”, Cathy said when asked about his company’s support of the traditional family unit as opposed to gay marriage.
“We are very much supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit. We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God thanks for that,” Cathy is quoted as saying.
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So where is the hate that Mr. Cathy supposedly espoused? Did I miss the part where he wished fire and brimstone on those who do not conform to his views on Traditional Marriage? Where was the anti-gay sentiment?
According to an article, Chick-fil-A invests in Christian growth and ministry through its WinShape Foundation (http://winshape.com/). The name comes from the idea of shaping people to be winners. It began as a college scholarship and expanded to a foster care program, an international ministry, and a conference and retreat center modeled after the Billy Graham Training Center at the Cove.
“That morphed into a marriage program in conjunction with national marriage ministries,” Cathy added.
Wow!! Imagine the nerve of this guy. How dare he support an organization that empowers youngsters to succeed? He should do what they practice in places like Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Boston, and Washington, DC and oppress them instead. If anyone has ever had a person-to-person conversation with a Chick-fil-A employee you will quickly find out that the Corporation does take care of their employees. If you were to visit one of their stores and OBJECTIVELY compare their employees' attitudes, especially with other fast food places, you will see that Chick-fil-A's workers take pride in their jobs, their store (they keep that place very clean!!), and more importantly - in themselves.
What we are seeing is the absolute proof that supposed progressive individuals are hypocrites. What Mr. Cathy stated during that radio interview was not even as strong as what the Coalition of African-Americans Pastors (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/31/black-pastors-group-launches-anti-obama-campaign-around-gay-marriage/) "Coalition of African-Americans Pastors" message to President Obama AFTER President Obama recently reversed his stand against gay marriage.
So where was the same firestorm when the President publicly declared his stance against gay marriage? I submit that based on the evidence and the very words of those who are calling for boycotts against Chick-fil-A that they are the very racists and hate-mongers that they claim to hate. They hate Mr. Cathy because he does not conform to their views on marriage and he actual built a successful business with 1,600 franchises through hard work and Faith in his Christian beliefs. It seems racism begets racism.
The ironic thing is up until this whole controversy I had not patronized Chick-fil-A for at least 2-years. So in support of Mr. Cathy’s FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS to speak his absolute belief in the traditional definition of marriage, I participated in the unofficial “Chick-fil-A day” last Wednesday. As a result, I rediscovered what made Chick-fil-A sandwiches SOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOD!! I rediscovered the excellent Customer Service they practice (they actually offer to refill your drink while you are still having your meal like a regular restaurant!!), I re-discovered just how clean they keep their locations, and I rediscovered some of the friendliest fast food workers around.
I suspect that there are thousands or even millions of people who either discovered or re-discovered the phenomenon that is Chick-fil-A. It just goes to show, that if you offer a great product at a great price and couple it with excellent facilities and Customer Service; you will be able to attract more customers especially when hypocrites start some sort of asinine controversy.
I think I’ll “Eat more Chikin”.
Silly Hetero - didn't your Mamma tell you that disagreement with the progressive or gay agenda is de facto hate?
Army Chief
08-04-12, 09:28
We went to Chik-fil-A twice on Wednesday as a family. Just sayin'.
AC
Our two locations had an hour and half wait all day...:D
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533082_10151980159235302_163103686_n.jpg
Just saying:)
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533082_10151980159235302_163103686_n.jpg
Just saying:)
As a business owner, I can have any policies or opinions I want and my company doesn't support GAY Marriage either (please try and protest me). ;)
Now in regards to Marriage being a "Right", well that has been established since the beginning as something that occurs between a Man and a Woman. So no one is taking anything from homosexuals as they never had it to begin with! Oh and homosexuality isn't a "new" thing. It has been around since civilization first started.
What irritates me about the homosexuals is that they ONLY comprise about 1-2% of the population! That's it! So why do we need to change laws and definitions of things just for 1-2%????
There are probably .5-1% of the population that thinks it is "OK" to have sex and marry farm animals and dolls (not making this up). Should we change the law and definition of Marriage because of this minority??? No, of course not.
To put things in perspective for M4C members, 50-70% of AR owners think that a Bushhamster is "good enough" for all Civy "needs." So should we stop being allowed to buy Colt, BCM, DD, KAC, Noveske, etc, etc??? No, of course not.
C4
I went there for the first time on Wednesday. Overall not too bad for fast food.
I don't see this thing anymore than a simple case of "rights"....the CEO of Chik-fil-a should be allowed to voice any opinion he feels like voicing.....equally gay people should be able to get married if they want to, and by doing so gain the same equal protections/privileges that lawfully married people currently enjoy.
Hate belongs nowhere in this topic imho...even though hate often leads to people having their rights taken away from them.
We went for the first time in about 4 or 5 years last Wednesday. We went around 1:15pm, after the lunch rush, to the one closest to where we live (about 9 minutes). Wait was 15 minutes plus or minus and there were a lot of people there. They are quite efficient at running their restaurants. We drove by the place on the way to the library 45 minutes earlier and the lines were much longer and the drive through probably had 30 or more cars in it.
And again yesterday. We went again yesterday to a different one a little further away from us, but more convenient for what our plans were. Since yesterday was supposed to be the counter-protest against them we went again but did not see any counter protest. The place was quite busy around 6:30pm on a Friday but it may have just been a normal Friday dinner time. Seemed to be much busier than the local Wendy's has ever been.
We used to go to Wendy's when we went out for "fast food" as the kids like it and I like the "$1 menu" myself. However, on Wednesday, the largest franchisee for Wendy's (in NC and SC with some 75-85 locations) had put out a sign on his marquee "We stand with Chick-Fil-A" at several of his stores, which brought the wrath of the LGBT-wacko brigades down on Wendy's, where corporate forced this "independent" franchisee to remove the signs and then proudly tweet many many times that unlike Chick-Fil-A, they "proudly serve ALL customers", inferring that Chick-Fil-A does not. Even though Chick-Fil-A does serve ALL customers who enter the door with REALLY GOOD service. They don't ask for your "hetero" card or discriminate against anyone doing business with them. So now our family will just ignore Wendy's from now on and just go to Chick-Fil-A when we get the hankering for some fast food.
My interest in the whole thing is more about the ability of someone to speak their mind, so-called "Free Speech" [I know most of the opposition to CFA was non governmental] and less about so-called "Gay Marriage." While I am against "Gay Marriage" for sociological, historical, and other reasons to do with the evolution of marriage in society, (and very little to do with Religion), I am not opposed to legal contracting between "Gays" that provide equivalent legal benefits to a person's "Gay" partner equivalent to those enjoyed by a "Straight" partner of a "Straight" person.
The other thing that got me motivated in this was that I am opposed to the LGBT "communities" IN YOUR FACE way of going about things. I don't care what they do in their own bedroom, and while it is not for me, even simple public expressions of affection, like straight couples often display, such as hand holding or simple kissing are fine as well [I am not enamored of straight couples making a public display of really passionate kissing either trying to draw attention]. But the over-the-top and in-your-face behavior of the so-called "Gay" community, who try to offend people with their in-your-face outlandish behavior, offends me and so I react in a way counter to that behavior. In this case, supporting a business that they have targeted. (Notice that none of my counter behavior revolves around trying to get the government to persecute them).
I think the LGBT community would do better by following the old adage "You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar"
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VooDoo6Actual
08-04-12, 11:36
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/gp4.jpg
Just thought the pic is funny, that's it.
In reality a sad state of affairs. Eroding & deteriorating situation. The whole disinformation campaign can be traced back even beyond the Kinsey Reports circa 1948 & 1953. Wonder of all wonders Kinsey Research & Reports were funded by the Rockefeller Foundation.
polymorpheous
08-04-12, 11:41
My biggest hang up on this whole mess is not the quote or the company stance.
But these so called progressives that will boycott a business because they don't agree with corporate policy or something the corporate leadership has a stance on.
Last I checked, the CEO of some shopping mall food court restaurant, (that's all Chik' is here in the MKE area), does not make municipal, state, or national policy.
I got news for the idiots protesting...
YOUR GOVERNMENT IS ANTI-GAY MARRIAGE TOO!
These ignorant sheep couldn't even tell you who their congress-person is, let alone take the time to put pen to paper to write them concerning issues such as these.
This is all a media distraction before elections.
Nothing will become of it.
Nothing will change.
Perhaps these idiots should boycott buying gasoline.
Some OPEC countries put homosexuals to death.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-04-12, 11:44
The ChickFilA situation is why I vote and push back against the 'gay agenda'. It isn't that I'm against gay marriage, straight people have done more to damage marriage than gays could ever do. It isn't that all gays are in for attacks against stright institutions.
It's the fact that 'gay rights' will be used like a sledge hammer against conservative and religious institutions that stand in the way of the liberal agenda. The big city mayor attacks on ChickFilA are trully scary manifestations of what this attack will look like- even with gay marrige not approved yet. Notice that the mayors don't go after anti-gay groups that are aligned in general with liberal sensabilities.
And if you gay or Liberterian Republicans think you'll have a seat at the big gay dinner party, look what happens to conservative women and blacks that don't toe the liberal line.
This isn't about gay rights, its about the total Progressive agenda- not really a rainbow but just different shades of red.
I don't see this thing anymore than a simple case of "rights"....the CEO of Chik-fil-a should be allowed to voice any opinion he feels like voicing.....equally gay people should be able to get married if they want to, and by doing so gain the same equal protections/privileges that lawfully married people currently enjoy.
Hate belongs nowhere in this topic imho...even though hate often leads to people having their rights taken away from them.
Sorry, but no. If we look at what the Bible says, homosexuality is a sin and specifically called out as an "abomination." So why do we (heterosexuals) have to validate this SIN by allowing homosexuals to marry???
If you are not a Christian, lets look at it from a natural selection point of view. Nature treates homosexuality as a losing proposition as well because the animal kingdom knows that two males cannot produce offspring. Thus, the growth that species would never happen.
If we give marriage rights to homosexuals, then who is next? People that want to marry farm animals, dolls, or under age children?? When and where does it stop??
Now lets get back to "rights." If homosexuals don't like CF's opinion, they don't have to eat there! Done deal (isn't America great)!
Just sayin...
C4
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/gp4.jpg
Just thought the pic is funny, that's it.
In reality a sad state of affairs. Eroding & deteriorating situation. The whole disinformation campaign can be traced back even beyond the Kinsey Reports circa 1948 & 1953. Wonder of all wonders Kinsey Research & Reports were funded by the Rockafeller Foundation.
Saw that pic on FB. Funny, how people want to voice their opinion, but when a company does it (and it goes against a SMALL minority's opinion), they think it is ok to be violent and or damage their property. :rolleyes:
C4
This is basically my biggest motivation as well. Kudos!
The ChickFilA situation is why I vote and push back against the 'gay agenda'. It isn't that I'm against gay marriage, straight people have done more to damage marriage than gays could ever do. It isn't that all gays are in for attacks against stright institutions.
It's the fact that 'gay rights' will be used like a sledge hammer against conservative and religious institutions that stand in the way of the liberal agenda. The big city mayor attacks on ChickFilA are trully scary manifestations of what this attack will look like- even with gay marrige not approved yet. Notice that the mayors don't go after anti-gay groups that are aligned in general with liberal sensabilities.
And if you gay or Liberterian Republicans think you'll have a seat at the big gay dinner party, look what happens to conservative women and blacks that don't toe the liberal line.
This isn't about gay rights, its about the total Progressive agenda- not really a rainbow but just different shades of red.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533082_10151980159235302_163103686_n.jpg
Just saying:)
I'm still looking for a "right to marry" clause in the US Constitution. Perhaps you could help me out? Maybe, it is in a state constitution...?
GeorgiaBoy
08-04-12, 13:00
Sorry, but no. If we look at what the Bible says, homosexuality is a sin and specifically called out as an "abomination." So why do we (heterosexuals) have to validate this SIN by allowing homosexuals to marry???
C4
Romans 3:23... For ALL have sinned and fallen SHORT of the GRORY of God. Don't treat homsexuals as if they are some kind of cast out monsters, even if you think they are sinners, they are still people. Just like you and me.
I have yet to find any truly substantially evidence that points to the Bible being anti-gay. First of all, there are few passages that even refer to it. IF homosexuality was such a big deal, such a terrible sin, you would have thought it would be mentioned much more. But alas, it is not. Nearly every time it is referenced, it is taken out of context and distorted.
Lets look at the Story of Sodom and Gommorah. The reason the city was destroyed was not because of it being filled with "evil homsexuals", it was destroyed because of the evils of rape, greed, and adultery. Luke 10: 10-13; Isaiah 19: 13-14; Jeremiah 23: 14; Ezekiel 16: 49 ALL say that the city was destroyed for the adultery, greed and lack of hospitality.
Both Leviticus 18 and 20 speak of homosexuality. Ok, big deal. Christians don't follow Leviticus. Last time I checked, we eat shrimp, pork, wear linen and wool at the same time, ect. Leviticus is not applicable to this discussion.
Paul speaks several times on the issue of homosexuality in the New Testement. (Jesus never did... :roll eyes:) However, it is important to note that every single time Paul talked about it, he wasn't just saying "Gay sex is bad. It is evil. It is sin. End of story". Every time he went deeper than that. He uses words such as "lusts", "passions", "desires", leading to the conclusions that he was really talking about adulterous, corrupt, pre-martial sex and NOT pure, marital relations.
The point? God condemns pre-martial, corrupt homosexual acts just as he condemns pre-marital, corrupt HETEROSEXUAL acts. If two people are in a loving, marital (or to them marital, if its not allowed) relationship, I see no reason for the Lord to object.
crowkiller
08-04-12, 13:14
GeorgiaBoy if God said homosexuality was an abomination yesterday then it is still an abomination today God doesnt change. The New Testement is very clear that homosexuaility is still sin and any person practicing homosexuality and does not repent will not enter Heaven the same as unrepentent adulturers and fornicators will not.
GeorgiaBoy
08-04-12, 13:32
GeorgiaBoy if God said homosexuality was an abomination yesterday then it is still an abomination today God doesnt change. The New Testement is very clear that homosexuaility is still sin and any person practicing homosexuality and does not repent will not enter Heaven the same as unrepentent adulturers and fornicators will not.
:blink: Do you eat pork? Do you eat shellfish? Do you wear clothes made up of more than one fabric? If someone cheats on their spouse, should they both die?
"Abomination" is a translation of the Hebrew word "toevah". It, in essence, means something that is allowed in one group, but not in another. It refers to non-Isrealatic practices. Kind of like a taboo of sorts.
An abomination is something that is is forbidden, shameful, greatly disliked or abhorred. A toevah is a taboo. Its a bad translation.
I'm staying clear of this shit-show; if I get involved in the gay marriage dispute here, things will probably not end well.
I just want to point out, for a bit of comic relief, that everyone is talking about gay marriage and HOPLOETHOS is talking about disinformation campaigns and the Rockefellers. I literally LOL'd.
Not talking shit or making a personal attack. I don't care who you are - that's funny.
The_War_Wagon
08-04-12, 13:45
Lets look at the Story of Sodom and Gommorah. The reason the city was destroyed was not because of it being filled with "evil homsexuals", it was destroyed because of the evils of rape, greed, and adultery. Luke 10: 10-13; Isaiah 19: 13-14; Jeremiah 23: 14; Ezekiel 16: 49 ALL say that the city was destroyed for the adultery, greed and lack of hospitality.
Paul speaks several times on the issue of homosexuality in the New Testement. (Jesus never did... :roll eyes:) However, it is important to note that every single time Paul talked about it, he wasn't just saying "Gay sex is bad. It is evil. It is sin. End of story". Every time he went deeper than that. He uses words such as "lusts", "passions", "desires", leading to the conclusions that he was really talking about adulterous, corrupt, pre-martial sex and NOT pure, marital relations.
Wow... uhmmm... at which seminary did you learn THESE teachings? I want to make sure I'M not in THAT revisionist church! :o
GeorgiaBoy
08-04-12, 13:49
I see I'm getting nowhere with this.
Absolutely ZERO surprise.
:blink: Do you eat pork? Do you eat shellfish? Do you wear clothes made up of more than one fabric? If someone cheats on their spouse, should they both die?
"Abomination" is a translation of the Hebrew word "toevah". It, in essence, means something that is allowed in one group, but not in another. It refers to non-Isrealatic practices. Kind of like a taboo of sorts.
An abomination is something that is is forbidden, shameful, greatly disliked or abhorred. A toevah is a taboo. Its a bad translation.
their is a HUGE difference in Laws that were around then and things God said/declared are sins !
if you use the Old Testament as stories and things that people had to deal with and overcome or not overcome as teachings to learn from also using the word of God and did they obey or not obey the laws of the land and the laws of God !
use the new testament as a way that shows you can walk the path but its not easy again pulling things that people did or did not do when given the word of God and free will
the way you use the shellfish thing ??? its kinda like saying the bible says to betray your friends cause Judas did !!!!
makes no sense
so it was originally a LAW !!!
also later on God cleansed the animals ? some say since he put them here for us and other interpretations :) like saying if you want to you can its OK just the Jewish people have their laws and you can eat them or not your choice !
also the first 5 books being oral Jewish history many feel do pertain more to their laws ?
again a early LAW and a SIN are two dif things and also later when
also some do say the early laws had some real health issues ? that shelfish can be very toxic ! we know Pork if not cooked can have major issues laws were the way to help keep people safer and healthier ? again those are purely some peoples ideas of how some early laws were formed
and some say the
Army Chief
08-04-12, 14:14
Predicting a relatively quick demise to this one. It's a lightning rod issue, no matter which side one chooses to take.
Taking the long view on doctrine, even in the NT, passages such as Romans 1:26 and 27 do not appear to give much latitude on the question. "Dishonorable passions" (ESV) is a fairly clear term in this context. The problem is that I don't see the church occupying much in the way of moral high ground where otherwise "honorable" passions are concerned, ether. Immorality is immorality. We may chafe a bit more at homosexuality because it strikes us as more clearly contrary to nature (consider that every homosexual is the product of a union between a man and a woman), but unfortunately God doesn't appear to detest one form of sin over another. The sin that we see may trouble us more than that which we cannot see quite as readily, but unless we're willing to be forthright and consistent on a Godly standard on heterosexual conduct, we aren't going to get a lot of traction dishing out righteous indignation on the homosexual community. We aren't called to be the judges in the first place.
I do believe the behavior to be wrong, and I am discouraged that there is absolutely no room for reasonable disagreement in the public square these days, but I also recognize that I'm not going to be able to help anyone get the sliver out of their eye until I can rid myself of the telephone pole in my own.
Lose-lose.
AC
we love chick fil a or however you spell that place :)
great milshakes and really good chicken and saucse :) we cut back cause of the calories :) hahahah but still eat there cause it supports good people and its great food and great service :)
my kids love getting the kids pack and getting the books and such to read
yummmy stuff and glad people can say what they want to bad the left does not support free speech !
Being a bigot is bad.
Telling people where they can open businesses is bad.
It's a chicken sandwich for shit's sake. This is a tempest in a tea cup, one stirred up on both sides.
You know that moment when you see a heated argument online and you JUST WANT TO POUND OUT AN ANGRY RESPONSE BECAUSE IT FEELS SO GOOD...but before you hit submit you take a step back? You take that calm breath of air, and realize it's not worth it? Everyone do that.
If you dislike gay marriage that's totally cool for you, Gay people have a right to get a chance to be absolutely unhappy like the straight people.
If you think the owner of Chick-Fil-A is a bigot, well, he has an opinion, it's a tad assholish, but it's his opinion, respect it as well. But yeesh, I'm not religious but I follow the idea that live and let live as long as you don't harm me. Life is WAYYYYYY too short and fragile to impose your will on others, or let someone elses' belief take away your happiness.
If you dislike gay marriage that's totally cool for you, Gay people have a right to get a chance to be absolutely unhappy like the straight people.
LOL
====
The whole ordeal wasn't about gay rights. It was about an attack on a person having free speech. Parts of the gay community, because of his beliefs, singeled him out to do him harm ( financially ).
That's just wrong and I hope Americans never step back from that.
"But yeesh, I'm not religious but I follow the idea that live and let live as long as you don't harm me."
Exactly!! Can you imagine now if you owned a business and because you have said you are not religious that all the religious people got together and encouraged people to not use your business?
That's pretty much what happened.
Take a step back people and realize that this entire situation is being driven by media and politicians in a major election cycle. A tempest in a tea cup is a perfect way to describe it.
Gays, do you really give a shit about what Chik-Fil-A as a corporation thinks? They make fast food for chrissakes. Food that I wouldn't eat or let my kids eat, but for some reason you give a shit about what they think of gay marriage. It's as if two lesbians were denied the right to a wedding ceremony in a Chik-Fil-A dining area. Fine, so don't eat at Chik-Fil-A. In fact, no one should be eating that crap to begin with, so who cares if their management are assholes? Do you really need to make such a huge deal out of this? Don't eat there and please discourage the extremists in your midst from saying and doing dumb things.
For you people to the right of the line, gays are getting married across the United States. The sun still rises and the sun still sets. In 1919, when women were given the right to vote by the Nineteenth Amendment, the hue and cry in the editorials was that America would spiral into chaos and crumble out of existence at the hands of hysterical women. By the way, the Nineteenth Amendment was passed by a wide margin with better than 80% of the votes coming from Republicans. Later, the Civil Rights Act was hearkened as the end of America. Minorities could have the same right to life, liberty and happiness as everyone else? What do they think they are? Human beings? GM, Ford Motor Company, Apple, Intel, Boeing, and General Mills, all companies with much broader reach than a bad fried chicken franchise, each support gay rights and have publicly said so through donations, training programs and workplace initiatives. Are you going to boycott all of them? Why is supporting a fast food chain so important when six of the largest companies in the world support views anathema to yours? Shit, 90% of you probably drive a Chevy or Ford, have an iPhone, Mac, or PC, eat food made possible by General Mills or have flown on a Boeing jet. Are you going to boycott any airline that uses Boeing jets? Stop using computers? OH MY GOD!! WHAT IF CHIK-FIL-A USES ANY GENERAL MILLS PRODUCTS IN THEIR SHITTY FOOD???!!!
Where does it end?
Just get the hell over it. An asshole made comments that you'd expect an asshole to make. The extreme end of the gay community said and did some shit that you'd expect the extreme end of any group to do, like graffiti some of the restaurants. I saw a Twitter quote from a guy that said: "I'd support Chik-Fil-A. I don't want some faggot making my food." All I can do is shake my head. Gay Rights supporters and their opponents are being reduced to their lowest common denominator.
The biggest issue that Conservatives and Liberals have right now is that the only voices being heard are the extremes of both groups and both extremes are scary as hell. The media in modern times has such a broad reach across so many technological platforms that they can cover the globe with extreme views of both sides. After all, extreme views are what drive ratings in digital age election years.
What every single one of you needs to be worried about is the fact that your political and moral beliefs are being reduced to only the extremest points of view and those points are repeated over and over each and every day by a media that has more control and influence at this very moment than at any point in history.
polymorpheous
08-04-12, 17:02
Take a step back people and realize that this entire situation is being driven by media and politicians in a major election cycle.
What every single one of you needs to be worried about is the fact that your political and moral beliefs are being reduced to only the extremest points of view and those points are repeated over and over each and every day by a media that has more control and influence at this very moment than at any point in history.
This.
crowkiller
08-04-12, 17:30
The biggest issue we have is people are turning away from God and His Word they are perverting or outfight denying it as truth. You guys fail to understand Christians do not hate gays we hate the sin and are commissioned to tell the truth of God's word to repent and be born again in Christ. Jesus died for the sins of this world, while we were yet sinners He died for us. Jesus loves the gay person and so we the Church love gay people but will not accept sin as anything but sin. we must speak the truth in love. As for people who claim to be Christian but hates another person that person does not have the spirit of Christ in them and should not be considered a part of Gods church. We love the sinner but hate the sin because the wages of sin is death which is eternal separation from God and we want all to know the gift of God which is everlasting life and that gift is what Christ did at the cross. Its a gift and all one has to do to receive it is just simply ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins, repent and live for Him. I stand with Mr Cathy and chik fil a because I understand his stance.
For all the passion that so-called "Gay Marriage" evokes, that is not really what this thread was about. It was more about the political shenanigans of the LBGT community in attacking a business due to the beliefs of the owner. I sympathize with those of you who cannot support "Gay Marriage", but I think that is another thread.
--
Romans 3:23... For ALL have sinned and fallen SHORT of the GRORY of God. Don't treat homsexuals as if they are some kind of cast out monsters, even if you think they are sinners, they are still people. Just like you and me.
I have yet to find any truly substantially evidence that points to the Bible being anti-gay. First of all, there are few passages that even refer to it. IF homosexuality was such a big deal, such a terrible sin, you would have thought it would be mentioned much more. But alas, it is not. Nearly every time it is referenced, it is taken out of context and distorted.
Lets look at the Story of Sodom and Gommorah. The reason the city was destroyed was not because of it being filled with "evil homsexuals", it was destroyed because of the evils of rape, greed, and adultery. Luke 10: 10-13; Isaiah 19: 13-14; Jeremiah 23: 14; Ezekiel 16: 49 ALL say that the city was destroyed for the adultery, greed and lack of hospitality.
Both Leviticus 18 and 20 speak of homosexuality. Ok, big deal. Christians don't follow Leviticus. Last time I checked, we eat shrimp, pork, wear linen and wool at the same time, ect. Leviticus is not applicable to this discussion.
Paul speaks several times on the issue of homosexuality in the New Testement. (Jesus never did... :roll eyes:) However, it is important to note that every single time Paul talked about it, he wasn't just saying "Gay sex is bad. It is evil. It is sin. End of story". Every time he went deeper than that. He uses words such as "lusts", "passions", "desires", leading to the conclusions that he was really talking about adulterous, corrupt, pre-martial sex and NOT pure, marital relations.
The point? God condemns pre-martial, corrupt homosexual acts just as he condemns pre-marital, corrupt HETEROSEXUAL acts. If two people are in a loving, marital (or to them marital, if its not allowed) relationship, I see no reason for the Lord to object.
LOL, uhm no. God gives clear guidelines on this subject. I would contradict everything just said, but this article does it much better: http://carm.org/bible-homosexuality
Pay specifically attention to this part in the article:
Homosexuality is not only condemned in the Bible, but it also goes against the created order of God who created Adam, a man, and Eve, a woman -- not two men, not two women -- to carry out his command to fill and subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28). Homosexuality cannot fulfil that command. It is, therefore, a contradiction to God's stated desire.
This contradiction is a severe one. And, unlike other sins, homosexuality has a heavy judgment administered by God Himself upon those who commit it. This judgment is simple in that they are given over to their passions - which means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins.
Keep in mind that I do not "hate" homosexuals. In fact, I had a GAY roommate for about a year. Good guy and IMHO set the example for how Gay people should act and handle their sexual preference.
In that article linked, it also gives my opinion on how I deal with homosexuals (if you really want to know my thoughts).
C4
I see I'm getting nowhere with this.
Absolutely ZERO surprise.
That is commonly referred to as a CLUE!!!
Just so you know, there are some pastors in this thread (professionals in their field if you will). They do not share your opinion (which basically means you are wrong).
C4
The biggest issue we have is people are turning away from God and His Word they are perverting or outfight denying it as truth. You guys fail to understand Christians do not hate gays we hate the sin and are commissioned to tell the truth of God word to repent and be born again in Christ. Jesus died for the sins of this world, while we were yet sinners He died for all us. Jesus loves the gay person we the Church love gay people but will not accept sin as anything but sin. we must speak the truth in love. As for people who claim to be Christina but hates another person does not have the spirit of Christ in them and should not be considered a part of Gods church. We love the sinner but hate the sin because the wages of sin is death which is eternal separation from God and we want all to know the gift of God is everlasting life and that gift is what Christ did at the cross. Its a gift and one has to do is receive it just simply ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins, repent and live for Him. I stand with Mr Cathy and chik fil a because I understand his stance.
Bingo Brother. Keep on telling the truth.....
C4
Just get the hell over it. An asshole made comments that you'd expect an asshole to make.
But what about these assholes?
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/chick-fil-blocked-opening-chicago-store/story?id=16853890
For having an opinion that he has every right to, his business was attacked by the Government on behalf of a special interest group.
GeorgiaBoy
08-04-12, 18:41
LOL, uhm no. God gives clear guidelines on this subject. I would contradict everything just said, but this article does it much better: http://carm.org/bible-homosexuality
Pay specifically attention to this part in the article:
C4
No.
If you would in fact read deeper in the lines, and stop taking the the word so LITERALLY in its English form maybe you would open your eyes.
You do realize there are often no perfect translations, right? And that a lot of times, things are mistranslated, right?
There are often Hebrew or Greek words that are very hard to effectively translate to English, and they end up being wrongly translated.
Here's some reading for you: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/no_fems_no_fairies.html
Doubt it will change your mind, unfortunatly. :(
theblackknight
08-04-12, 18:42
Wow.
This is only a problem because gays have a very vocal minority that are bend on shoving their lifestyle down our throat(LOL PUNS) and want acceptance instead of tolerance. Most gay people just want those assholes to shut up so they can go about living their lives,not stage kiss-ins in front of a family restarunt.But its getting them closer to marriage so the crazy ones are tolerated. Thats why I dont like the whole militant tolerance movement they've put on in the whole LGBTWTFEVER "movement". How do you not think a pre op tranny weird? Shits weird brah! I dont like the idea of 2 dudes being married, but the government can get ****ed if they think they should have a hand in it,and citing the bible as a reason or reference. The bible is no longer relevant.
I'm not really sure why polygymsts havent spoke up yet.
VooDoo6Actual
08-04-12, 18:48
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/TonyTweet.png
My wife and I waited in line for about 45 minutes wednesday night at 9pm. The drive thru line wrapped around the building twice. We are not religious people, but we do have strong beliefs about our culture and the principles this country was founded on. I attended catholic school, grade fourth through high school, and my wife was brought up a southern Baptist. As adults we have no need for organized religion. I am just of the opinion that most gay people are liberal cry babies that will never be happy until everyone agrees with them. People can do or believe anything they want as long as they do not force it on us. Marriage was meant from the beginning to bond two people of the opposite sex...end of story. If two guys (or girls) want to have some kind of legal civil union, so be it, but it should not be called or considered a marriage.
Romans 3:23... For ALL have sinned and fallen SHORT of the GRORY of God. Don't treat homsexuals as if they are some kind of cast out monsters, even if you think they are sinners, they are still people. Just like you and me.
I have yet to find any truly substantially evidence that points to the Bible being anti-gay. First of all, there are few passages that even refer to it. IF homosexuality was such a big deal, such a terrible sin, you would have thought it would be mentioned much more. But alas, it is not. Nearly every time it is referenced, it is taken out of context and distorted.
Lets look at the Story of Sodom and Gommorah. The reason the city was destroyed was not because of it being filled with "evil homsexuals", it was destroyed because of the evils of rape, greed, and adultery. Luke 10: 10-13; Isaiah 19: 13-14; Jeremiah 23: 14; Ezekiel 16: 49 ALL say that the city was destroyed for the adultery, greed and lack of hospitality.
Both Leviticus 18 and 20 speak of homosexuality. Ok, big deal. Christians don't follow Leviticus. Last time I checked, we eat shrimp, pork, wear linen and wool at the same time, ect. Leviticus is not applicable to this discussion.
Paul speaks several times on the issue of homosexuality in the New Testement. (Jesus never did... :roll eyes:) However, it is important to note that every single time Paul talked about it, he wasn't just saying "Gay sex is bad. It is evil. It is sin. End of story". Every time he went deeper than that. He uses words such as "lusts", "passions", "desires", leading to the conclusions that he was really talking about adulterous, corrupt, pre-martial sex and NOT pure, marital relations.
The point? God condemns pre-martial, corrupt homosexual acts just as he condemns pre-marital, corrupt HETEROSEXUAL acts. If two people are in a loving, marital (or to them marital, if its not allowed) relationship, I see no reason for the Lord to object.
This is a seriously deficient view of the nature of God's law and it's application today. I don't know if you're a Christian or not, but a review of the heresy of Antinomism, and a more in depth study of the three uses of God's law would be in order. Sodomite behavior is a crime and it's toleration is a scandal.
VooDoo6Actual
08-04-12, 19:38
Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People There Are
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
Gay Population In U.S. Estimated At 4 Million, Gary Gates Says
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/07/gay-population-us-estimate_n_846348.html
This guy's idea of "watching my six" or "got your six" is completely different than what my interpretation/understanding is. Not only is a disgrace to the uniform & the Corp. but inappropriate on so many levels & not just in public. There is no way I would go into harm's way (combat) with this teammate.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/Screen-shot-2012-02-27-at-120433-PM.jpg
Belmont31R
08-04-12, 19:40
Just goes to show the intolerance of the "tolerant party". They've been shoving tolerance down our throats for decades, and when someone doesn't agree with them they go all out to disparage them including vandalism, using their positions of power to hurt them, ect. **** these guys.
Gay marriage is obviously a controversial topic, and Ill only ask why the government is involved in it at all other than putting the marriage in the public record. A "marriage license" is an insult to humanity.
No.
If you would in fact read deeper in the lines, and stop taking the the word so LITERALLY in its English form maybe you would open your eyes.
You do realize there are often no perfect translations, right? And that a lot of times, things are mistranslated, right?
There are often Hebrew or Greek words that are very hard to effectively translate to English, and they end up being wrongly translated.
Here's some reading for you: http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/no_fems_no_fairies.html
Doubt it will change your mind, unfortunatly. :(
People use the "translation" argument to make the Bible say something it does not. Most of the things that don't translate well from Hebrew and Greek are things like verbs. English verbs have tenses—past, present, and future. Greek verbs have these same tenses, but they also have what is known as "aspect." Present-tense Greek verbs mean more than the action is occurring presently. A Greek verb can also carry the meaning that the action is occurring continually or repeatedly. This is lost in English unless the aspect word "continually" or "repeatedly" is added to the translation along with the verb. A specific example of this is Ephesians 5:18, "...be filled with the Spirit." In the original Greek, this verse is telling us to continually be filled with the Spirit. It is not a one-time event—it is a lifelong process. This "aspect" is lost in the English translation.
To quote the famous Martin Luther; "The languages are the sheath in which the sword of the Spirit is contained."
On top of this, we also know the Bible makes it clear that the Spirit is the author of the Bible and that He will help us to understand the His Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 14:26).
Unfortunately, I doubt it will change your mind, but at least you have heard the truth (which is all I am called to do).
The best example I have seen written (as to why NOT to get wrapped around the axle about translations) is this:
Perhaps this is a good analogy: reading the Bible without knowing Greek and Hebrew is like watching a 20" television, while reading the Bible knowing Greek and Hebrew is like watching a 65" LED 1080p HDTV with stereo surround sound. You can understand what is going on with the 20" television, but the 65" LED HDTV with stereo surround sound gives added depth and clarity. With the help of the Holy Spirit, anyone can accurately understand the Bible in English. However, knowing Hebrew and Greek helps to better understand the nuances and richness of the biblical texts.
C4
Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People There Are
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
Gay Population In U.S. Estimated At 4 Million, Gary Gates Says
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/07/gay-population-us-estimate_n_846348.html
This guy's idea of "watching my six" or "got your six" is completely different than what my interpretation/understanding is. Not only is a disgrace to the uniform & the Corp. but inappropriate on so many levels & not just in public. There is no way I would go into harm's way (combat) with this teammate.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/Screen-shot-2012-02-27-at-120433-PM.jpg
I have struggled with this pic since the day I first saw it. I understand that the Marine missed his "partner" after a long tour. To me, this is one of those people that want to "rub" it everyones face that he is GAY. This kind of behavior is what causes Heterosexuals to dislike Homosexuals.
C4
Belmont31R
08-04-12, 22:00
I have struggled with this pic since the day I first saw it. I understand that the Marine missed his "partner" after a long tour. To me, this is one of those people that want to "rub" it everyones face that he is GAY. This kind of behavior is what causes Heterosexuals to dislike Homosexuals.
C4
Im not anti-gay....but yes you are right the throwing it in our faces is what gets at me. Public displays of affection are verboten, and thats thats to maintain the dignity of the uniform. Instead gays have to take everything to the extreme and run all over everything they can to proclaim how gay they are.
How about we knock off the bullshit gentlemen? No one complains when scenes like this are shown on the nightly news and thrown in our faces. The double standard is obvious. I expected better from the members here.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z257/ppd6576/6056662US-Sailor-Bending-Young-Nurse-over-His-Arm-to-Give-Her-Passionate-Kiss-in-Middle-of-Times-Square-Posters.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z257/ppd6576/92249880_fce44f2d13.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z257/ppd6576/888804_dt_9_homecoming_1_t620.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z257/ppd6576/kiss_jxc413nc.jpg
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z257/ppd6576/021ab7b1.jpg
This thread is going nowhere. Its degenerated in to a "my interpretation of the Bible is better than your interpretation of the Bible". The funny part of all this is that legally, religion has NOTHING to do with marriage in the United States. It's not required for a marriage to occur.
Chicken. You're arguing gay marriage, religion, the translation of the Bible and all other manner of horseshit over a shitty fried chicken fast food chain.
On a gun forum.
I'll leave you with this. When you start to take yourself too seriously, just remember that you're a talking monkey on an organic spaceship hurtling around a huge ball of burning gas in a little corner of the universe.
All those pics the other persons feet are on the ground ! And not wrapped around the other person
Big difference to many people !
Its like a couple giving a kiss and some teenagers mashing/grinding eachother in public !
Oh man, I want to know what surgical instrument you've got for splitting hairs. We could play 'google image search' till we've rubbed our fingers down to the bone, and you'd still have missed the forest from the trees.
All those pics the other persons feet are on the ground ! And not wrapped around the other person
Big difference to many people !
Its like a couple giving a kiss and some teenagers mashing/grinding eachother in public !
Here ya go, sweetheart. Any more semantics you want to engage in tonight?
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z257/ppd6576/g244000000000000000fa4aa32630c4b2114580321e953ab0c7a5681445.jpg
In case you were wondering, I knew someone would try the "feet on the ground" bullshit. That's why I held on to this one.
Moose-Knuckle
08-05-12, 01:50
I don't eat fast food but I'm going to drop some coin on gift cards from them just to show my support.
For all the members of the herd who try and dispute that there is no homosexual agenda, this whole Chic-Fil-A charade is proof positive.
I love all the hypocrites who scream for 'rights' and in the same breath scream for taking away others. If you want to be a homo, cool. If Chic-Fil-A wants to be a Pro-Family corporation then cool. "I can have mine but you can't have yours", PATHETIC!
How about we knock off the bullshit gentlemen? No one complains when scenes like this are shown on the nightly news and thrown in our faces. The double standard is obvious. I expected better from the members here.
_ This thread is going nowhere. Its degenerated in to a "my interpretation of the Bible is better than your interpretation of the Bible". The funny part of all this is that legally, religion has NOTHING to do with marriage in the United States. It's not required for a marriage to occur.
Chicken. You're arguing gay marriage, religion, the translation of the Bible and all other manner of horseshit over a shitty fried chicken fast food chain.
On a gun forum.
I'll leave you with this. When you start to take yourself too seriously, just remember that you're a talking monkey on an organic spaceship hurtling around a huge ball of burning gas in a little corner of the universe.
Yes it is a double standard as it should be. I do not think the standard is or ever was to be two men or women kissing. A man and woman kissing is accepted in our society because they can mate and produce children. I am sure this happens often after a long tour of duty.:D If two men or two woman could produce children maybe this double standard would change?
Here ya go, sweetheart. Any more semantics you want to engage in tonight?
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z257/ppd6576/g244000000000000000fa4aa32630c4b2114580321e953ab0c7a5681445.jpg
In case you were wondering, I knew someone would try the "feet on the ground" bullshit. That's why I held on to this one.
yup the wife not the SOLDIER !!! I think that is the point show me one with a guy or gal SOLDIER legs wrapped I will say that is not good
GeorgiaBoy
08-05-12, 04:20
People use the "translation" argument to make the Bible say something it does not. Most of the things that don't translate well from Hebrew and Greek are things like verbs. English verbs have tenses—past, present, and future. Greek verbs have these same tenses, but they also have what is known as "aspect." Present-tense Greek verbs mean more than the action is occurring presently. A Greek verb can also carry the meaning that the action is occurring continually or repeatedly. This is lost in English unless the aspect word "continually" or "repeatedly" is added to the translation along with the verb. A specific example of this is Ephesians 5:18, "...be filled with the Spirit." In the original Greek, this verse is telling us to continually be filled with the Spirit. It is not a one-time event—it is a lifelong process. This "aspect" is lost in the English translation.
To quote the famous Martin Luther; "The languages are the sheath in which the sword of the Spirit is contained."
On top of this, we also know the Bible makes it clear that the Spirit is the author of the Bible and that He will help us to understand the His Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 14:26).
Unfortunately, I doubt it will change your mind, but at least you have heard the truth (which is all I am called to do).
The best example I have seen written (as to why NOT to get wrapped around the axle about translations) is this:
C4
Whatever man. You believe what you want, see in the Bible what you want, and I'll do the same. :)
I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, a Man of peace and love would not for a second look down on or desire to take the happiness away from 2 people that genuinely love each other, regardless of their gender.
God Bless...
30 cal slut
08-05-12, 07:17
I'm staying clear of this shit-show; if I get involved in the gay marriage dispute here, things will probably not end well.
From where I sit, the reaction to this has amounted to ... free advertising for Chik-Fil-A. Score a win for CFA's here.
Getting into unpleasant confrontations over the issue of gay marriage at a fast food joint - kind of un-American, regardless of which side you are on the issue.
This is an issue of liberty and bigotry, and neither are related specifically to homosexuality, but to the more general practice of pushing one viewpoint over and above all others and taking the step of punishing those who don't agree. The Left are most often the most egregious perpetrators of that behavior these days, despite their constant claims to "tolerance" and "diversity", two words they have stolen and redefined.
But of course the discussion becomes one of homosexuality, and I see a few faulty arguments being regurgitated (the "shellfish, pork, wearing clothing with two kinds of cloth" one in particular, why Sodom was destroyed, as well as trying to wiggle out of what "toevah" means), so for those interested in truth and integrity and not just parroting dead arguments, you will find the answers begin here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxIWf7qrcZM
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=5068
Regarding what the Bible says, people do actually study the text, in its original languages, and establish the full context of a given passage, and can know precisely what the text says and have a solid understanding of what it means. That study is called hermeneutics and a proper hermeneutic is key to gaining a proper understanding of the text. It is not left to every individual to come up with their own personal "interpretation" based on a modern English translation of the text. Upon receiving teaching on the text from someone who does study it correctly (e.g., a qualified pastor) and who can provide an accurate interpretation of it, what the individual should then do is come up with an application for the passage to their lives.
And as far as the excuse of Christians not always acting like Christians, it's not a valid reason to reject God nor to excuse immoral behavior: http://www.choosinghats.com/2012/08/on-failure-christians-christians/
Predicting a relatively quick demise to this one. It's a lightning rod issue, no matter which side one chooses to take.
Taking the long view on doctrine, even in the NT, passages such as Romans 1:26 and 27 do not appear to give much latitude on the question. "Dishonorable passions" (ESV) is a fairly clear term in this context. The problem is that I don't see the church occupying much in the way of moral high ground where otherwise "honorable" passions are concerned, ether. Immorality is immorality. We may chafe a bit more at homosexuality because it strikes us as more clearly contrary to nature (consider that every homosexual is the product of a union between a man and a woman), but unfortunately God doesn't appear to detest one form of sin over another. The sin that we see may trouble us more than that which we cannot see quite as readily, but unless we're willing to be forthright and consistent on a Godly standard on heterosexual conduct, we aren't going to get a lot of traction dishing out righteous indignation on the homosexual community. We aren't called to be the judges in the first place.
I do believe the behavior to be wrong, and I am discouraged that there is absolutely no room for reasonable disagreement in the public square these days, but I also recognize that I'm not going to be able to help anyone get the sliver out of their eye until I can rid myself of the telephone pole in my own.
Lose-lose.
AC
Excellent post, AC.
ForTehNguyen
08-05-12, 08:51
One thing not a lot of people noticed is this maybe a clue of the turnout in November.
Army Chief
08-05-12, 10:23
One thing not a lot of people noticed is this maybe a clue of the turnout in November.
Great observation, and probably the more constructive line of discussion to pursue at this point.
I was fairly astonished at the ground swell of support that Chik-fil-A received last Wednesday across the nation, and if these same people feel motivated to go to the polls in November, it could definitely deal a blow to those advancing progressive agendas that are out of step with the mainstream. We see so much of this on television and in our film and entertainment industry that we sometimes get the impression that these battles were fought and lost a long time ago, but clearly, not everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid.
Regardless of where one might stand on moral issues -- or even free speech -- I couldn't help but find great encouragement in what I saw happen all across the country last week. In the end, it wasn't really about Mr. Cathy's views, chicken sandwiches, homosexuality, or even freedom of expression: it was about tens of thousands of Americans standing up and saying "enough is enough." Apparently, We The People don't like to be told what to think any more today than we did 230+ years ago. Who knew? ;)
AC
That is commonly referred to as a CLUE!!!
Just so you know, there are some pastors in this thread (professionals in their field if you will). They do not share your opinion (which basically means you are wrong).
C4
Not sure how sarcastic you were being with this but I have a huge problem with opinions like this. Generally speaking in my experience, people of religion believe themselves to be traveling the high ground (no I'm not saying you are...for all I know you practice what you preach, so to speak) but how can someone who attends services regularly, studies the Bible, preaches,etc. throw that in my face and expect me to take them on their word? For all I know they cheat on their wife with four whores on the side and beat their kids.
You have to admit A LOT of church goers put off the vibe that they're better than you simply because they claim to be confessing their sins while I am not. I once accused my HOA President of lying and he said "I DO NOT LIE! I AM A PREACHER!" Ok?!? So you are better than me? People telling others that they are wrong simply because they don't read the literal interpretation of the Bible as they do is just hypocritical. Jesus' teachings outright contradict the Old Testament. I'd suggest if Christians don't want to appear hypocrites they scrap that whole part of the Bible.
Anyway, back on topic.
I believe Cathy has the full right to express his opinion...while I didn't see it as the smartest move at first, I can see the dollar signs in his eyes now. Maybe he was naive and didn't realize it would create such a polarizing atmosphere a few months away from the election :rolleyes: Just the same, I'm all for it. The more people that band together to get BHO out of office the better. I think the typical reaction of the left is to be expected. I had no idea this would turn into the blood bath it has but it's really too far to turn back now. Call it free speech but it's a Christians vs. Homos issue either way you look at it.
I've always known the corporation to be religious because they close on Sundays. Where were the protestors when they first started that practice? I haven't gone in several days just because of the crowds but it isn't going to stop me. Are we going to go to every founder of every fast food chain and ask them what their beliefs are? ****in ridiculous.
How many of you Christians would stop going to a restaurant if a founder said they were gay or atheist?
As a business owner, I can have any policies or opinions I want and my company doesn't support GAY Marriage either (please try and protest me). ;)
Now in regards to Marriage being a "Right", well that has been established since the beginning as something that occurs between a Man and a Woman. So no one is taking anything from homosexuals as they never had it to begin with! Oh and homosexuality isn't a "new" thing. It has been around since civilization first started.
What irritates me about the homosexuals is that they ONLY comprise about 1-2% of the population! That's it! So why do we need to change laws and definitions of things just for 1-2%????
There are probably .5-1% of the population that thinks it is "OK" to have sex and marry farm animals and dolls (not making this up). Should we change the law and definition of Marriage because of this minority??? No, of course not.
To put things in perspective for M4C members, 50-70% of AR owners think that a Bushhamster is "good enough" for all Civy "needs." So should we stop being allowed to buy Colt, BCM, DD, KAC, Noveske, etc, etc??? No, of course not.
C4
Actually, when we began changing laws to give married couples benefits over other Americans we created a new 'class' of individual and to not allow another American into this 'class' because of their sexual preference is wrong. Period.
You talk about those who would lay with beasts or dolls... is that really affecting you?
That's the kicker of all of this. Does it really affect you? Then who gives a shit. The government needs to get out of our bedrooms. They have NO business telling us who we can and can't marry or what we can do to our own bodies or what we can or can't enjoy so long as none of it affects anyone else who isn't consenting. Period. I'm SO sick of restrictive laws attempting to legislate morality and all it's served to do is morally bankrupt our society the more strict the laws. The more the role the government plays in telling the people what they should & shouldn't do the less responsibility they take for their own actions over generations. At some point people have to just fall back on their morals and not do shit simply because it's wrong and not because it's against the law. The photograph that should fit this nation has already been posted so I'll post it again because laws shouldn't prevent people from doing things that have no affect on me simply because that's how I feel. I have my own personal ideas and beliefs but that doesn't mean I feel laws should be created to force these ideals onto everyone else.
Liberty above all else.
Forget that and you forget why this great country was founded. If you don't like it move to a country where they put homosexuals to death. Maybe a place like that will more closely resemble your staunch ideals.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533082_10151980159235302_163103686_n.jpg
Advocate for the repeal of government recognized marriage then. All kinds.
Advocate for the repeal of government recognized marriage then. All kinds.
This is akin to saying 'We can't have FA weaponry or explosives? Let's just make ALL firearms illegal then.'
Sounds like a legitimate solution, right?
The hypocrisy present on these firearm forums amazes me. We fight fervently for our right to possess firearms as a basic right yet some fight just as hard to prevent someone else from having a right that most consider just as basic: Marrying the person they love. Firearms hurt people and that's a simple fact. I'm talking actual physical harm and/or death. Who is gay marriage really harming?
Continuing on the hypocrisy theme... the way most 'Christians' pick and choose what parts of the Bible are applicable to them is astounding.
'Judge not lest ye be judged'
Let me guess.. you can twist that one to suit your agenda too, right?
This is akin to saying 'We can't have FA weaponry or explosives? Let's just make ALL firearms illegal then.'
Sounds like a legitimate solution, right?
The hypocrisy present on these firearm forums amazes me. We fight fervently for our right to possess firearms as a basic right yet some fight just as hard to prevent someone else from having a right that most consider just as basic: Marrying the person they love. Firearms hurt people and that's a simple fact. I'm talking actual physical harm and/or death. Who is gay marriage really harming?
Continuing on the hypocrisy theme... the way most 'Christians' pick and choose what parts of the Bible are applicable to them is astounding.
'Judge not lest ye be judged'
Let me guess.. you can twist that one to suit your agenda too, right?
I have no agenda here...don't really care. My post that you are replying to wasn't purely rhetorical in nature...it's something that I'm actually in favor of. And your analogy doesn't hold...I'm not advocating criminalizing marriage. I may be a Southern Baptist in the Bible belt but the libertarian in me thinks the government should get out of the marriage business. You can't legislate morality. Sure, I think homosexuality is wrong...I also think heterosexual premarital sex is as well.
Now if you want to debate whether or not the government should get smaller in this respect, fine, though it's probably for another thread. But if your hypocrisy accusations are directed at me, you are barking up the wrong tree.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-05-12, 12:25
God doesn't have anything to do my issues with gay marriage. Stow the God and Darwin arguements- they are sure losers in the end. Marriage between a man and a woman has been the norm for centuries. All of a sudden you want to change it? And for some reason 'gay' marriage becomes the default position that must be stopped? How the heck did the status quo lose status quo status?
They should have to fight for the status, rather than have it voted down in almost every referendum only to be put in place by judicial fiat- and then you have to go thru the system that just overturned thousands of years of herstory to get back to the status quo.
Gay has gone from the act that dare not say its name to the lifestyle choice that won't shut the **** up.
Once again, for those not looking at the big picture. This isn't about gay marriage. This is about progressives having a legal tool to attack conservative and religious organizations. That's why its critical that gay=black so that this is a 'civil rights' struggle, not taking of the legal highground from which the left can reign down legal attacks on conservative groups. What part of the Obama care attacks on First Amendment freedoms is so hard to see the short drive into Czechoslovakia.
By they way, if 'marriage' is just a contract between consenting adults, there is no way you can stop polygamy and prostitution from being legalized. One is just increaseing the number from two to more, the other is just limiting the time of the contract ahead of time- lease instead of buy.
It's not personal, it's just a (business) contract.
I have no agenda here...don't really care. My post that you are replying to wasn't purely rhetorical in nature...it's something that I'm actually in favor of. And your analogy doesn't hold...I'm not advocating criminalizing marriage. I may be a Southern Baptist in the Bible belt but the libertarian in me thinks the government should get out of the marriage business. You can't legislate morality. Sure, I think homosexuality is wrong...I also think heterosexual premarital sex is as well.
Now if you want to debate whether or not the government should get smaller in this respect, fine, though it's probably for another thread. But if your hypocrisy accusations are directed at me, you are barking up the wrong tree.
No, I wasn't directing that whole statement at you specifically. It was more of a general statement towards the entire topic. I actually agree with your statement about getting the government out of it entirely as well. Take away the tax incentives to get married or have kids that the government currently gives and you don't have a 'class' created that some want to keep others out of. The idea of legislating morality is why tax breaks for marriage were created to begin with. So I agree that it's wrong as it completely backfired in the face of those who started the tax breaks to begin with as they consider homosexual marriage amoral. So roll the whole thing back. You weren't able to legislate morality and now are facing giving tax incentives to a lifestyle you wished to steer people away from to begin with. Fail.
This thread is becoming convoluted by the forking of topics. There is a discussion about CFA, Homosexuals in general, Church & State, a Biblical interpretation between Christians, and now a Biblical interpretation discussion between Christians & non-believers.
Im a believer; and as one, I should have been there on Friday amidst the nonsense, talking to homosexuals about Christ. He came for the sick, not the healthy. His grace poured out upon me daily for my insurmountable unworthiness to be with him is reason enough for me to provide a fraction of grace towards other sinners, other implying my guilt included.
Excellent post AC.
theblackknight
08-05-12, 13:13
http://qualityshows.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/redneck_gun_20100526_1984409262.jpg
"Havent chall' read the bible? How's a buncha gay chickins gonna make me a chicken sammich?I tell yah this country gone down the shitter."
http://www.verbict.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/dude-hipster.jpg
"OMG you guys are such bigots! I mean if grown men or women or people at various points in between want to feel the wonderful magic of divorce,they should be able to.Everyone knows divorce is the new marriage. Here's some links to some totally not biased research by totally objective people showing that gay parents have zero effect on a child's self development in the area of gender roles in western culture.Stop the hate"
Actually, when we began changing laws to give married couples benefits over other Americans we created a new 'class' of individual and to not allow another American into this 'class' because of their sexual preference is wrong. Period.
Agree - marriage is not something the government should be regulating or dictating rules regarding. They only got into that act because it benefits them to have families creating new citizens, as it were, and they wanted to encourage that. But as always, government regulation is short-sighted and prone to failure and unforeseen consequences.
Marriage is, at least in the case of Christians and Jews, a covenant between a husband and his wife before God. Government really has no bearing on that and shouldn't be in the business of legislating marriage.
You talk about those who would lay with beasts or dolls... is that really affecting you?
Unfortunately, it does when government supports, defends, or encourages abominable acts. That's the thing: corporate sin (meaning the sum of all sin, and in particular that which a nation's government affirms and encourages) across a nation does affect us all, though many would not recognize or admit that. Christians have an inherent responsibility to speak out against such things being made law, and to warn those who practice such things to forsake their sin and turn to God for forgiveness and mercy, just as He has done for us and our sins through Jesus Christ. When a nation or society goes down a pathway of sin and does not repent and continues actively going against God's laws, it is eventually judged. Sometimes immediately, sometimes long-term, but one can look back across history and identify that, indeed, in one form or another, nations are judged for their sin-guilt. Quite often they don't even recognize it and they may even curse God or even persecute people associated with Him for the very judgments that they brought upon themselves.
That's the kicker of all of this. Does it really affect you? Then who gives a shit. The government needs to get out of our bedrooms. They have NO business telling us who we can and can't marry or what we can do to our own bodies or what we can or can't enjoy so long as none of it affects anyone else who isn't consenting. Period.
So yes, it does affect us, and yes, government should not be dictating marriage terms and perhaps because it affects all of us when they do, that's the biggest reason they shouldn't be involved in such things. If someone goes and fornicates with animals, let his guilt be on him and don't drag our entire nation into it by demanding the government protect his so-called "right" to do so, create laws around his behavior to support him, or encourage others to follow in his practice. See, we're not out to physically prevent someone from doing what their wicked heart desires to do. Just don't drag us into it or put us in a place where we are going to take splash damage from the judgment for it when it comes. We can warn and we can call to repentance, but it is up to the individual to choose whether to respond or not. We respect their freedom to choose their own behavior. We'll inform them of the consequences and should they not heed them, that's on their own heads. Pretty simple concept, and well in line with Libertarian principles. Do what you want, but don't drag us into it and don't say we didn't warn you.
-----
That was just to answer your questions/arguments.
There are also some pretty strong logical arguments, like that laid out by FromMyColdDeadHand: We should examine how we lost the status quo. Although I don't know he'll like what he finds when he examines it, like what it is that causes nations/empires to fall. But he's right - it's not merely a business contract, nor is it a civil rights issue.
This is akin to saying 'We can't have FA weaponry or explosives? Let's just make ALL firearms illegal then.'
Actually, precisely the inverse. It would be more akin to saying make all weapons legal, because in taking the government out of the equation, they wouldn't be legislating that item one way or the other. When there are no laws or regulations on something, at least in our nation, it is inherently allowed. It simply is no longer something the government legislates, it is up to the individual and groups within society that traditionally handled the item. In the case of marriage, religious institutions. Of course, given the state of our society today, there would be negative consequences of doing that, just like there would be with legalizing ownership of all weapons. Someone else can dig up the quotes for you from the founding fathers regarding the freedoms and liberties set up for this nation requiring an inherently moral and ethical people in order to make it work. We lost that a long time ago, so a lot of the laws created to regulate deviances were arguably needed because society itself was growing increasingly immoral.
There would probably be problems either way if marriage laws are changed today. But there is more danger for all of us in government formally legalizing deviant and abominable practices than there is in them washing their hands of the topic of marriage entirely, something they shouldn't be regulating in the first place. For one thing, it would make it a lot easier for those who wish no part in such things (in both directions) to separate themselves out from those who do and not be forced by the government to accept it. When you untangle marriage from the legal codes and laws, it is no longer favoring one group over another and it is no longer the government's job to promote one or the other.
Continuing on the hypocrisy theme... the way most 'Christians' pick and choose what parts of the Bible are applicable to them is astounding.
Funny thing: While that is certainly true in some cases (though it's not the case in the way you wish to imply it is on this issue), it is even more true of non-Christians, and you do the very thing in your next line that you condemn them for, when you quip "judge not lest you be judged". You pick that one statement out of its context and try to use it to further your point. So congratulations for doing the same thing you accuse others of doing. ;)
How about instead of buying the tired stereotypes of Christians that are promoted by activist atheists on the Internet, you actually get to know some genuine Christians. You'll find they're much different than the outliers that are so easy to poke fun at or hate on as if they're representative of the whole. You'll see, on the whole and to varying degrees, people just like you or anyone else, but with evidence of changed lives and the product of the work of the Spirit of God in their lives. People with some Christ-like compassion, charity, patience, kindness, humility, self control, faithfulness, integrity. They aren't perfect, but they seek to honor God and love their neighbors, those being the essence of the Christian faith. When they wrong you, they genuinely seek your forgiveness and to make things right. And you'll find a logical consistency throughout the biblical worldview that is absent in others, at least without those other worldviews borrowing from the Judeo-Christian worldview in order to prop up their own.
And study the homosexual community too. Learn what that lifestyle is really like for its participants, and the consequences of it both on them and on society, instead of accepting the white-washed popular media portrayal of it. It's not as easy to find the truth on that issue these days because of increased efforts to hide the truth by those who promote the lifestyle, despite the harm they are causing by hiding it. But the truth is still out there, for now. Some of us have bothered to look into both things before forming an educated opinion of them, and we'd encourage you to do the same.
theblackknight
08-05-12, 18:33
This thread is becoming convoluted by the forking of topics. There is a discussion about CFA, Homosexuals in general, Church & State, a Biblical interpretation between Christians, and now a Biblical interpretation discussion between Christians & non-believers.
Im a believer; and as one, I should have been there on Friday amidst the nonsense, talking to homosexuals about Christ. He came for the sick, not the healthy. His grace poured out upon me daily for my insurmountable unworthiness to be with him is reason enough for me to provide a fraction of grace towards other sinners, other implying my guilt included.
Excellent post AC.
Wait, I was at Chick fila on the supporters day, because not working on sundays and standing your ground rocks, but how to you plan to recruit gay dudes when you refer to them as "sick" into a religion which sounds like
insurmountable unworthiness it has a built in guilt trip?
Not sure how sarcastic you were being with this but I have a huge problem with opinions like this. Generally speaking in my experience, people of religion believe themselves to be traveling the high ground (no I'm not saying you are...for all I know you practice what you preach, so to speak) but how can someone who attends services regularly, studies the Bible, preaches,etc. throw that in my face and expect me to take them on their word? For all I know they cheat on their wife with four whores on the side and beat their kids.
Speaking the truth is what I am called to do. As a Christian, the Bible tells me that GOD will hold me accountable for every word I speak and my deeds.
So for me, I don't want to be standing in front of GOD and him say to me: "Remember that thread on the M4C where people were saying that I said that Gay marriage was ok and you didn't not speak up and tell them they were wrong? Why didn't say (what you know is right in your heart) that they were wrong??"
Now, I don't know about you or your beliefs, but I have no interest in having this conversation with GOD. YMMV.
You have to admit A LOT of church goers put off the vibe that they're better than you simply because they claim to be confessing their sins while I am not. I once accused my HOA President of lying and he said "I DO NOT LIE! I AM A PREACHER!" Ok?!? So you are better than me? People telling others that they are wrong simply because they don't read the literal interpretation of the Bible as they do is just hypocritical. Jesus' teachings outright contradict the Old Testament. I'd suggest if Christians don't want to appear hypocrites they scrap that whole part of the Bible.
I am not sure what "better" means. I do not come across these people at my church, but I think I know about what you are talking about. Our Pastor often comments on NOT becoming a "Religious" person. A religious person is perfect on Sunday and breaks every commandment M-S. They also pass judgment on anyone they do not like. To include NOT welcoming a person like a Homosexual into their church. The church that I attend has several homosexual couples that regularly attend. They are loved not only by the Pastor, but but the congregation. This does NOT mean that any of us approve of their sin.
The argument that the OT and the NT contradicts itself are 100% false. For further info on this: http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con090.asp
Anyway, back on topic.
I believe Cathy has the full right to express his opinion...while I didn't see it as the smartest move at first, I can see the dollar signs in his eyes now. Maybe he was naive and didn't realize it would create such a polarizing atmosphere a few months away from the election :rolleyes: Just the same, I'm all for it. The more people that band together to get BHO out of office the better. I think the typical reaction of the left is to be expected. I had no idea this would turn into the blood bath it has but it's really too far to turn back now. Call it free speech but it's a Christians vs. Homos issue either way you look at it.
I've always known the corporation to be religious because they close on Sundays. Where were the protestors when they first started that practice? I haven't gone in several days just because of the crowds but it isn't going to stop me. Are we going to go to every founder of every fast food chain and ask them what their beliefs are? ****in ridiculous.
How many of you Christians would stop going to a restaurant if a founder said they were gay or atheist?
Too many of my fellow Christians sit quietly and never speak up about what they KNOW is wrong for fear of the negative attention from family, friends or in this case, National media. So I applaud CF for standing up for their beliefs and wish more companies would do this.
I have posted comments similar to what I have posted on here on my FB page. I have got so many positive remarks from friends, family and complete strangers for being bold and standing up for what I believe. If people do not like my opinion about this subject, I am fine with that.
C4
Actually, when we began changing laws to give married couples benefits over other Americans we created a new 'class' of individual and to not allow another American into this 'class' because of their sexual preference is wrong. Period.
You talk about those who would lay with beasts or dolls... is that really affecting you?
That's the kicker of all of this. Does it really affect you? Then who gives a shit. The government needs to get out of our bedrooms. They have NO business telling us who we can and can't marry or what we can do to our own bodies or what we can or can't enjoy so long as none of it affects anyone else who isn't consenting. Period. I'm SO sick of restrictive laws attempting to legislate morality and all it's served to do is morally bankrupt our society the more strict the laws. The more the role the government plays in telling the people what they should & shouldn't do the less responsibility they take for their own actions over generations. At some point people have to just fall back on their morals and not do shit simply because it's wrong and not because it's against the law. The photograph that should fit this nation has already been posted so I'll post it again because laws shouldn't prevent people from doing things that have no affect on me simply because that's how I feel. I have my own personal ideas and beliefs but that doesn't mean I feel laws should be created to force these ideals onto everyone else.
Liberty above all else.
Forget that and you forget why this great country was founded. If you don't like it move to a country where they put homosexuals to death. Maybe a place like that will more closely resemble your staunch ideals.
Affect me personally? Yes as I view it as a continued left wing conspiracy to change this great country. The gay marriage things is just part of it (as others have mentioned in this thread).
If you think I am in the minority here, look at the States where the PEOPLE got to vote on this issue.
C4
how to you plan to recruit gay dudes
Why would you go out of your way to witness to any particular type of sinner? Because all of us are doomed without Christ, and if a particular group is placed on your heart as one to which you feel called to outreach, by all means do so.
when you refer to them as "sick"
Sick in the plain sense of the word, meaning 'not well'. Not sick like in "dude that is just sick" (particularly negative or gross) nor "dude, sick car" (inverted use to express positive). I don't think much of the use of the term "sick" to describe sin because to me it falls a bit short of what sin is and can be confusing, but I can at least clarify his use of it for you. Also, it is applied to all sin/sinners, so it's not like he's calling gay people "sick" in this context in some particular way and not also every other type of sinner, be they heterosexual adulterers, thieves, or anything else. Sin is an equal opportunity employer. In his context, it is a sickness that affects all of us as human beings.
into a religion which sounds like it has a built in guilt trip?
Common misconception and possible confusion with Catholicism. Protestant Christianity has no guilt trip. The gospel is presented. You are either convicted of your sin and forsake it and put your faith in Christ alone, or you aren't&don't. Every person is born with a guilt trip, it's called the conscience, and it's there to convict the person of their sin. Each of us knows we do wrong and can't escape it, nor can we stop sinning. Many respond to their guilty conscience by trying to drown it out with distractions or vices, or convince themselves there is no God, or that they're somehow good enough on their own merit to be acceptable in his presence.
When you are saved by the finished work of Christ, there is no guilt trip, because your sins have been propitiated. Your record is wiped clean, your sin debt to God paid by Jesus Christ. That is part of the joy found in the new life in Christ. We owe him all because he paid it all.
One of the reasons many describe it as a weight being lifted off their shoulders is that they have no more need to try to drown out their conscience with whatever was their vice or addiction. They don't have to run any longer and they have been freed from their slavery to sin. If anything, the Christian is the one who person who truly is freed from the guilt that everyone else faces to one degree or another, whether by ignoring it or by assuaging it through creating a faulty scale or standard by which to judge their own merit, trying to be "good enough" while ignoring that God's standard is perfection and only Jesus Christ fulfilled it, and conquered death to prove it, and therefore only He can save sinners.
This is akin to saying 'We can't have FA weaponry or explosives? Let's just make ALL firearms illegal then.'
Sounds like a legitimate solution, right?
The hypocrisy present on these firearm forums amazes me. We fight fervently for our right to possess firearms as a basic right yet some fight just as hard to prevent someone else from having a right that most consider just as basic: Marrying the person they love. Firearms hurt people and that's a simple fact. I'm talking actual physical harm and/or death. Who is gay marriage really harming?
Continuing on the hypocrisy theme... the way most 'Christians' pick and choose what parts of the Bible are applicable to them is astounding.
'Judge not lest ye be judged'
Let me guess.. you can twist that one to suit your agenda too, right?
This is a FAIL! Again, guns to do NOT hurt ANYONE, people do. A gun is no different than a car, a spoon or money. All are neutral (neither good or bad).
In far as passing judgment, you must not have been paying attention. I do not have the right to judge anyone. This is GOD's job. The truth is that I am CALLED to love everyone (homosexuals included). This does NOT mean that I have to love their SIN (approve of it). Please understand the difference.
C4
Agree - marriage is not something the government should be regulating or dictating rules regarding. They only got into that act because it benefits them to have families creating new citizens, as it were, and they wanted to encourage that. But as always, government regulation is short-sighted and prone to failure and unforeseen consequences.
Marriage is, at least in the case of Christians and Jews, a covenant between a husband and his wife before God. Government really has no bearing on that and shouldn't be in the business of legislating marriage.
Unfortunately, it does when government supports, defends, or encourages abominable acts. That's the thing: corporate sin (meaning the sum of all sin, and in particular that which a nation's government affirms and encourages) across a nation does affect us all, though many would not recognize or admit that. Christians have an inherent responsibility to speak out against such things being made law, and to warn those who practice such things to forsake their sin and turn to God for forgiveness and mercy, just as He has done for us and our sins through Jesus Christ. When a nation or society goes down a pathway of sin and does not repent and continues actively going against God's laws, it is eventually judged. Sometimes immediately, sometimes long-term, but one can look back across history and identify that, indeed, in one form or another, nations are judged for their sin-guilt. Quite often they don't even recognize it and they may even curse God or even persecute people associated with Him for the very judgments that they brought upon themselves.
So yes, it does affect us, and yes, government should not be dictating marriage terms and perhaps because it affects all of us when they do, that's the biggest reason they shouldn't be involved in such things. If someone goes and fornicates with animals, let his guilt be on him and don't drag our entire nation into it by demanding the government protect his so-called "right" to do so, create laws around his behavior to support him, or encourage others to follow in his practice. See, we're not out to physically prevent someone from doing what their wicked heart desires to do. Just don't drag us into it or put us in a place where we are going to take splash damage from the judgment for it when it comes. We can warn and we can call to repentance, but it is up to the individual to choose whether to respond or not. We respect their freedom to choose their own behavior. We'll inform them of the consequences and should they not heed them, that's on their own heads. Pretty simple concept, and well in line with Libertarian principles. Do what you want, but don't drag us into it and don't say we didn't warn you.
-----
That was just to answer your questions/arguments.
There are also some pretty strong logical arguments, like that laid out by FromMyColdDeadHand: We should examine how we lost the status quo. Although I don't know he'll like what he finds when he examines it, like what it is that causes nations/empires to fall. But he's right - it's not merely a business contract, nor is it a civil rights issue.
Excellent post Sir.
C4
threeheadeddog
08-05-12, 19:35
I often refer to myself as a "Libertarian Christian" only to get odd looks by people who think those two outlooks are impossible to have at the same time. I dont believe that is the case at all. I basically believe that "liberty" is having the freedom to make wrong choices. I believe in liberty in all areas of private living. If you want to smoke dope, go ahead...I wont. If you want to do anything at all that only affects you, go head.
I fully support someones liberty to live in a gay lifestyle, but there is a difference between supporting liberty and promoting or supporting the act. I do not support gay marriage as it has nothing whatsoever to do with legal rights to make wrong choices. It only has to do with whether the government officially recognizes it as socially equivilent or not.
Also I have a bit of a problem with the way gay acts are given some special status by some as being the only act that is somehow protected from any argument or hatefull to dissagree with. I tend to view homosexual behavior along the same lines as I view other innapropriat sexual acts, and other addictions. I dont say this with the viewpoint that I am somehow better either, as I have struggled with other addictions including sexual ones in the past. Just because someone enjoys the homosexual lifestyle and maby even was born with predisposition twords that type of emotional behavior does not make it right. Many people are born with weakness twords alcohol,emotional addiction, sexual excess, ect and enjoy it no matter what it does to their life. God, knows I enjoyed my own addictions, even though it was causing problems with my own life.
I simply dont equate an action as being equivilent to our nations history and black civil rights as so many gays do.
Also, as has been said before, this has nothing to do with the right to marry either. If it was for equal rights to marry than you would have to give legitimacy to anyone who would want to marry. That would include adults to 13 year olds, a man and his goat, or someone and there 10 "wives", as equal means equal and these groups have every bit as much reason to want legal unions as two men or two women.
theblackknight
08-05-12, 19:36
Why would you go out of your way to witness to any particular type of sinner? Because all of us are doomed without Christ, and if a particular group is placed on your heart as one to which you feel called to outreach, by all means do so.
Sick in the plain sense of the word, meaning 'not well'. Not sick like in "dude that is just sick" (particularly negative or gross) nor "dude, sick car" (inverted use to express positive). I don't think much of the use of the term "sick" to describe sin because to me it falls a bit short of what sin is and can be confusing, but I can at least clarify his use of it for you. Also, it is applied to all sin/sinners, so it's not like he's calling gay people "sick" in this context in some particular way and not also every other type of sinner, be they heterosexual adulterers, thieves, or anything else. Sin is an equal opportunity employer. In his context, it is a sickness that affects all of us as human beings.
Common misconception and possible confusion with Catholicism. Protestant Christianity has no guilt trip. The gospel is presented. You are either convicted of your sin and forsake it and put your faith in Christ alone, or you aren't&don't. Every person is born with a guilt trip, it's called the conscience, and it's there to convict the person of their sin. Each of us knows we do wrong and can't escape it, nor can we stop sinning. Many respond to their guilty conscience by trying to drown it out with distractions or vices, or convince themselves there is no God, or that they're somehow good enough on their own merit to be acceptable in his presence.
When you are saved by the finished work of Christ, there is no guilt trip, because your sins have been propitiated. Your record is wiped clean, your sin debt to God paid by Jesus Christ. That is part of the joy found in the new life in Christ. We owe him all because he paid it all.
One of the reasons many describe it as a weight being lifted off their shoulders is that they have no more need to try to drown out their conscience with whatever was their vice or addiction. They don't have to run any longer and they have been freed from their slavery to sin. If anything, the Christian is the one who person who truly is freed from the guilt that everyone else faces to one degree or another, whether by ignoring it or by assuaging it through creating a faulty scale or standard by which to judge their own merit, trying to be "good enough" while ignoring that God's standard is perfection and only Jesus Christ fulfilled it, and conquered death to prove it, and therefore only He can save sinners.
Wow, I think I'll leave the bible reading to you guys.
Good discussion by all. Time to close it before it goes south.
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