View Full Version : Another mass shooting in Oak Creek, WI
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 13:48
Ongoing situation right now.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/165061026.html
I was a block away at a grocery store when this happened.
Got word on my phone what was happening.
It's hard to grocery shop when you are constantly scanning for a threat.
Hoping to God I wouldn't have to use my CCW.
Lesson learned, carry daily.
Reagans Rascals
08-05-12, 13:55
"An officer arrived on scene. He engaged an active shooter. The officer was shot multiple times. He has been transported to a local hospital and is expected to survive," said Wentlandt. "The shooter was put down."
****'n A
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 14:08
It's a big shit sandwich.
My heart goes out to the parents and the kids involved.
Apparently some child was having a birthday party before services started.
My thoughts are also with my cousin who is a SWAT officer for a neighboring department.
Unknown if he is at the scene or not.
Word on the radio is that several departments have teams there.
Reagans Rascals
08-05-12, 14:37
why aren't these shitbags being charged as domestic terrorists.... that piece of shit that shot up the theater, and the other ass clown that shot Giffords should all be charged as domestic terrorists and as per the patriot act, thrown in Guantanamo Bay
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 14:48
Because it isn't terrorism.
They are simply nutjobs.
ter·ror·ism/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Noun:
The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
SeriousStudent
08-05-12, 15:05
Prayers sent that the wounded make a speedy recovery. My hat is off to the courage of the officer that engaged the shooter so quickly.
ETA: My God, what kind of scumbag do you have to be, to attack a child's birthday party??
Because it isn't terrorism.
They are simply nutjobs.
ter·ror·ism/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Noun:
The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
There are numerous definitions of terrorism. That's a crappy one. The FBI definition is pretty good. Typing in my phone right now so I can't easily link that. But IMHO, these folks are nutjobs and terrorists.
why aren't these shitbags being charged as domestic terrorists.... that piece of shit that shot up the theater, and the other ass clown that shot Giffords should all be charged as domestic terrorists and as per the patriot act, thrown in Guantanamo Bay
Frankly, In situations like this where's there's no doubt of the shooters guilt, I think they should be charged, and upon being found guilty,should be given a death sentence,( I don't give a damn if they're crazy or not) and executed the same day, their bodys cremated, and the ashes dumped into the nearest sewage disposal plant...Or if they're Islamic, their ashes dumped into a hog pen..
Reagans Rascals
08-05-12, 15:16
Because it isn't terrorism.
They are simply nutjobs.
ter·ror·ism/ˈterəˌrizəm/
Noun:
The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
Everyone of these shootings is politically motivated, Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate a sitting US Congresswoman... that is terrorism in its plainest sense...
Most of those we call "terrorists" overseas are not politically motivated, they are religiously motived, yet we still refer to them as terrorists...
the key phrase being terror... I believe dressing up in body armor and ambushing a crowded theater of movie goers, is just that.... an attempt to use terror in achieving an end result
yet the Animal Liberation Front is considered a Domestic Terrorist Organization because they free lab animals and then burn the buildings down, yet cause no injury or loss of human life... that's back asswards to me
loganp0916
08-05-12, 15:27
Frankly, In situations like this where's there's no doubt of the shooters guilt, I think they should be charged, and upon being found guilty,should be given a death sentence,( I don't give a damn if they're crazy or not) and executed the same day, their bodys cremated, and the ashes dumped into the nearest sewage disposal plant...Or if they're Islamic, their ashes dumped into a hog pen..
That's kind of unfair to the hogs, don't you think? Haha
But seriously, I agree with this. These pieces of shit should be put down right away.
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 15:29
That's kind of unfair to the hogs, don't you think? Haha
But seriously, I agree with this. These pieces of shit should be put down right away.
I'm this instance, he was.
Kudos to the Oak Creek officer who stopped this guy.
High Tower
08-05-12, 16:00
Kudos to the Oak Creek officer who stopped this guy.
Amen to that!
The others should be publically hung within a week after their crimes. Its not like there is any doubt about who did it.
GeorgiaBoy
08-05-12, 16:08
Amen to that!
The others should be publically hung within a week after their crimes. Its not like there is any doubt about who did it.
Public hangings?
We are past that barbarianism.
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 16:13
LEO press conference right now.
They are treating this as a domestic terror incident.
2 officers responded to the scene initially.
Saw one victim and attended to that victim.
The shooter then engaged the officers, shooting one multiple times.
The other officer returned fire and killed the shooter.
Public hangings?
We are past that barbarianism.
So does that mean 'draw and quarter' is out? :rolleyes:
Public hangings?
We are past that barbarianism.
hmmm are we ? seems these shooters are the definition of barbarianism !
Just curious...Anyone know if places of worship are prohibited places in Wisconsin?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 16:53
Anyone know if places of worship are prohibited places in Wisconsin?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
They are not.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-05-12, 17:09
I've spent some time in India and I like Sikhs. They eat meat, are pretty family oriented and conservative. They seem to have a good 'success drive' and I see a lot in technical positions.
The best thing I heard about them is a comment from another Indian.
"They don't cause problems, but if you screw with them they can be really violent."
That's my kind of people. Kind of like the Texans of India.
Prayers for those injured and killed along with their families. Kudos for the LEO taking out the trash.
Wonder if the shooter was under the care of a psychiatrist or a psychologist?
VooDoo6Actual
08-05-12, 17:16
Public hangings?
We are past that barbarianism.
Interesting comment.
To me hunting down a single HVT Terrorist w/ a drone & killing 10+ innocents or more as collateral damage hardly seems that WE are past Barbarianism. Then paying Blood $ as compensatory damages for wrongful death has some poorly thought out blowback imo.
Seems to me that up close & personal 'wet work' is a better solution & less Barbaric.
Keeping it real & all that...
GeorgiaBoy
08-05-12, 17:22
Interesting comment.
To me hunting down a single HVT Terrorist w/ a drone & killing 10+ innocents or more as collateral damage hardly seems that WE are past Barbarianism. Then paying Blood $ as compensatory damages for wrongful death has some poorly thought out blowback imo.
Seems to me that up close & personal 'wet work' is a better solution & less Barbaric.
Keeping it real & all that...
I'm saying that the desire of civilized people to WANT to go and see other human beings executed, whether it be burning at the stake, drawing and quartering, hanging, firing squad, even lethal injection is a bit barbaric in my opinion. "Morbid curiosity" and "I want to see that mother ****er suffer and die for what he did" is two completely different things.
Why would you want to lower yourself to that of the killer? To WANT to see someone die? You aren't content to just know that the person is dead and off the face of the planet, but actually want to see it for yourself? That's sick to me.
VooDoo6Actual
08-05-12, 17:31
I'm saying that the desire of civilized people to WANT to go and see other human beings executed, whether it be burning at the stake, drawing and quartering, hanging, firing squad, even lethal injection is a bit barbaric in my opinion. "Morbid curiosity" and "I want to see that mother ****er suffer and die for what he did" is two completely different things.
Why would you want to lower yourself to that of the killer? To WANT to see someone die? You aren't content to just know that the person is dead and off the face of the planet, but actually want to see it for yourself? That's sick to me.
Ah, didn't get all that & nuances in your blanket statement regarding Barbarianism.
Perhaps we'll come back after a while & revisit this topic after some time so that I can illustrate w/ alacrity what's going on. Then again perhaps not.
GeorgiaBoy
08-05-12, 18:32
Ah, didn't get all that & nuances in your blanket statement regarding Barbarianism.
Perhaps we'll come back after a while & revisit this topic after some time so that I can illustrate w/ alacrity what's going on. Then again perhaps not.
You took my statement more broad than it should have been taken. I went from talking about capital punishment for those tried in civilian courts (i.e., public hangings..), and you went to talking about drone strikes against enemies of our nation in war zones.
There is quite a bit of difference.
Mauser KAR98K
08-05-12, 19:10
Holy hell, we don't need this now.
Drudge has a heading saying "white male in his 30s." Link is to Fox news.
I'm saying that the desire of civilized people to WANT to go and see other human beings executed, whether it be burning at the stake, drawing and quartering, hanging, firing squad, even lethal injection is a bit barbaric in my opinion. "Morbid curiosity" and "I want to see that mother ****er suffer and die for what he did" is two completely different things.
Why would you want to lower yourself to that of the killer? To WANT to see someone die? You aren't content to just know that the person is dead and off the face of the planet, but actually want to see it for yourself? That's sick to me.
I interpreted that comment about immediate hanging moreso along the lines of swift justice rather than letting them rot for 20 years before serving out their execution, especially for ones that plead guilty.
VooDoo6Actual
08-05-12, 19:24
You took my statement more broad than it should have been taken. I went from talking about capital punishment for those tried in civilian courts (i.e., public hangings..), and you went to talking about drone strikes against enemies of our nation in war zones.
There is quite a bit of difference.
Funny,
Your commenting about my interpretation of Barbarianism being broad & now your making analogies to an ambiguous & vague comment in your post regarding War Zones.
I was not aware that some of the Drone strikes were in "War Zones". Interesting & conveiniently broad use of the term War Zones.
As you say there, is quite a bit of difference.
CarlosDJackal
08-05-12, 19:37
why aren't these shitbags being charged as domestic terrorists.... that piece of shit that shot up the theater, and the other ass clown that shot Giffords should all be charged as domestic terrorists and as per the patriot act, thrown in Guantanamo Bay
I don't really think we want every nutjob that commits this type of a crime to be considered an act of "domestic terrorism" by default. If we allow that term to be misused, it would not take much for the knee-jerk reactors to use it against someone who is involved in a self-defensive shooting.
How would you like to loose your Constitutionally guaranteed due process if you were involved in a justifiable homicide?
I've spent some time in India and I like Sikhs. They eat meat, are pretty family oriented and conservative. They seem to have a good 'success drive' and I see a lot in technical positions.
The best thing I heard about them is a comment from another Indian.
"They don't cause problems, but if you screw with them they can be really violent."
That's my kind of people. Kind of like the Texans of India.
Prayers for those injured and killed along with their families. Kudos for the LEO taking out the trash.
iirc, they stopped the Muslim advance into India back in the day. Definitely a mess-with-the-bull,-get-the-horns situation back then. :)
Anyway, couple of thoughts on this incident:
What a blessing to have some quick law enforcement response to this. Sounds like officers were on scene practically when it started and that stopped it pretty quickly?
Prayers are with the officer who was wounded.
Holy hell, we don't need this now.
Drudge has a heading saying "white male in his 30s." Link is to Fox news.
The media needs this now, because Fast & Furious got uncovered and the Colorado killer didn't generate enough propaganda to support gun legislation. It's a concerted effort. Gotta get rid of guns soon so they can further their cause. (http://www.examiner.com/article/army-colonel-ignites-firestorm-with-article-on-crushing-a-tea-party-insurgency)
Please, everyone, stop engaging in making this sort of thread personal. It's completely unbecoming.
Mauser KAR98K
08-05-12, 20:13
Damn, and I had my eyes on a really nice guitar.
Reagans Rascals
08-05-12, 20:39
I find it comical how the societal agenda in today's age is one of non-violence against aggressors, and of "rising above" so to speak as to not succumb to emotion and somehow find ourselves at or below the so called "level" of those we despise.... yet a mere 60 years ago, our country stood rightfully behind our government while we firebombed entire cities, literally burning hundreds of thousands if not millions of civilians; men, women, and children burned alive as they slept or hid in their closets, deathly afraid of those ominous thundering roars of propellers overhead....
if the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few then.... what has changed?
GeorgiaBoy
08-05-12, 21:07
Funny,
Your commenting about my interpretation of Barbarianism being broad & now your making analogies to an ambiguous & vague comment in your post regarding War Zones.
I was not aware that some of the Drone strikes were in "War Zones". Interesting & conveiniently broad use of the term War Zones.
As you say there, is quite a bit of difference.
HOP, please forget I even said anything. I'm not going to play word games.
I am very surprised someone of your intelligence and extensive knowledge can't tell the difference between a civilian community voluntarily viewing a execution for the pleasure of seeing a person die, and a drone strike being issued by our military/government on HTV terrorist resulting in collateral damage.
. . .
My heart goes out to the families of this tragedy.
I am very surprised someone of your intelligence and extensive knowledge can't tell the difference between a civilian community voluntarily viewing a execution for the pleasure of seeing a person die, and a drone strike being issued by our military/government on HTV terrorist resulting in collateral damage.
Message sent. Hope that ends the personal back and forth in this thread. Thanks.
SHIVAN is completely right. This shooting today is horrendous. Especially for the families involved. For us it, yet again unfortunately requires a defense of our personal choice of lifestyle; the M4 (regardless if a similar weapon was used today or not the media seems to lump them all into one ignorant lump), it's variants and other weapons the media views all as evil instruments of destruction.
Can we please keep on topic of what actually happened and how we can better use said situation to defend our position on our God given right to protect ourselves with whatever weapon we choose or have on call. Sounds cheesy and stupid but in response to what has happened today and the last few weeks we are in this together with the final goal of retention of our rights and the defense of those rights.
-Jax
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 22:20
Looks like my girlfriend's coworker's mother is one of the killed.
Sorry to hear that Poly. I hope your girlfriend can be of some comfort during this horrible time.
-Jax
Everyone of these shootings is politically motivated, Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate a sitting US Congresswoman... that is terrorism in its plainest sense...
Most of those we call "terrorists" overseas are not politically motivated, they are religiously motived, yet we still refer to them as terrorists...
the key phrase being terror... I believe dressing up in body armor and ambushing a crowded theater of movie goers, is just that.... an attempt to use terror in achieving an end result
yet the Animal Liberation Front is considered a Domestic Terrorist Organization because they free lab animals and then burn the buildings down, yet cause no injury or loss of human life... that's back asswards to me
Maybe if we had more domestic drones....:rolleyes:
There are numerous definitions of terrorism. That's a crappy one. The FBI definition is pretty good. Typing in my phone right now so I can't easily link that. But IMHO, these folks are nutjobs and terrorists.
:confused:
polymorpheous
08-05-12, 23:00
Sorry to hear that Poly. I hope your girlfriend can be of some comfort during this horrible time.
-Jax
She's pretty shaken up.
davidjinks
08-06-12, 06:13
It's amazing how fast the media comes out with:
Caucasian male, bald, skin head, veteran, domestic terrorism...
QuietShootr
08-06-12, 07:45
OK - bad stuff. I just got a call from a friend - he was in Germany with this ****ing idiot in the lat 90s. Turns out the ****stick has a DD as a result of his (among other things) goose-stepping down the main drag in Regensburg singing the Horst Wessel Lied and other folk tunes like that. He was a complete ****ing nut, apparently. Known for being a skinhead type before he finally snapped and got the CM and the boot.
Nice.
polymorpheous
08-06-12, 08:26
So they named the shooter but my girlfriend's coworker still can't find it what happened to his mother?
Wade Michael Page...
Yeah, **** that guy.
I wish the cops killed the prick before he got a single shot off.
Honest question: Why are people like this or the Colorado shooter not on any of the lists that checks are run on before one can purchase a firearm?
Also, big headline on Drudge about him being a "MILITARY VET". Screw that. A big percentage of our nation is military veterans, it has nothing to do with that.
OK - bad stuff. I just got a call from a friend - he was in Germany with this ****ing idiot in the lat 90s. Turns out the ****stick has a DD as a result of his (among other things) goose-stepping down the main drag in Regensburg singing the Horst Wessel Lied and other folk tunes like that. He was a complete ****ing nut, apparently. Known for being a skinhead type before he finally snapped and got the CM and the boot.
Nice.
Well, I guess the next question is, Where did he get a handgun?
Honest question: Why are people like this or the Colorado shooter not on any of the lists that checks are run on before one can purchase a firearm?
Also, big headline on Drudge about him being a "MILITARY VET". Screw that. A big percentage of our nation is military veterans, it has nothing to do with that.
If I'm not mistaken, on the 44773 form, they ask if you were ever DD'd, one would think a DD would pop up during a check, and be a reason for a denial. If he bought a pistol legally, and was approved, I'd say that little oversight falls into the ATF's lap....But at this point, who knows...
Reagans Rascals
08-06-12, 09:25
Wade Michael Page...
****... why do they always have a name like that.... always 3 names
polymorpheous
08-06-12, 09:35
****... why do they always have a name like that.... always 3 names
It's called a middle name.
Most of us have them.
Most Americans have three names, first middle and last. The media reports all three for situations like this to avoid any confusion or possible libel/slander should they identify too vaguely or broadly by using just a first and last name.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-06-12, 09:41
****... why do they always have a name like that.... always 3 names
Ask the other James Holmes in Aurora why. I'd rather not know their names, though it does help to put a fuller picture together when people who have had contact come forward.
Just looking around, it doesn't look like Wis has FFL checks at gun shows. So either there or a private transfer. Guess we hit the trifecta- AWs, LargeCapMags and the Gun show Loop-hole all in a month.
polymorpheous
08-06-12, 10:04
Ask the other James Holmes in Aurora why. I'd rather not know their names, though it does help to put a fuller picture together when people who have had contact come forward.
Just looking around, it doesn't look like Wis has FFL checks at gun shows. So either there or a private transfer. Guess we hit the trifecta- AWs, LargeCapMags and the Gun show Loop-hole all in a month.
Area gun shows rarely have private sales tables.
It's almost always gun stores.
Handgun transfers in Wisconsin require the usual background check plus an additional state background check and 48 hour waiting period.
Private to private sales in Wisconsin do not require background checks or waiting periods.
Cincinnatus
08-06-12, 13:09
OK - bad stuff. I just got a call from a friend - he was in Germany with this ****ing idiot in the lat 90s. Turns out the ****stick has a DD as a result of his (among other things) goose-stepping down the main drag in Regensburg singing the Horst Wessel Lied and other folk tunes like that. He was a complete ****ing nut, apparently. Known for being a skinhead type before he finally snapped and got the CM and the boot.
Nice.
That is a very interesting tidbit of information. If the media even hears about it, it will undoubtedly be glossed over or not mentioned in their bid to paint all vets as basket cases. The only way it might get mentioned is if they try to bring out the racist angle and slough it all over the place, trying to make all gunowners seem like skinheads.
Mauser KAR98K
08-06-12, 13:12
Ia it open season for skin heads and nazis, yet?
QuietShootr
08-06-12, 13:16
That is a very interesting tidbit of information. If the media even hears about it, it will undoubtedly be glossed over or not mentioned in their bid to paint all vets as basket cases. The only way it might get mentioned is if they try to bring out the racist angle and slough it all over the place, trying to make all gunowners seem like skinheads.
Yeah - but from what I'm given to understand, this guy is so ****ing stupid he was like the Dave Chappelle 'Blind Black White Supremacist' dude. And he was very definitely too dumb to know the difference between Sikhs and Muslims. Anyway, the guy had a screw loose from the get-go, I guess...one of those guys you meet and think, "He's gonna shoot up a schoolbus full of orphans one day."
Spurholder
08-06-12, 13:22
If I'm not mistaken, on the 44773 form, they ask if you were ever DD'd, one would think a DD would pop up during a check, and be a reason for a denial. If he bought a pistol legally, and was approved, I'd say that little oversight falls into the ATF's lap....But at this point, who knows...
Just heard a news report (ABC News through my local talk radio station) a few minutes ago - a Justice Department official was stating that the weapon used was "legally obtained." No other info than that, however.
Cincinnatus
08-06-12, 13:26
Just heard a news report (ABC News through my local talk radio station) a few minutes ago - a Justice Department official was stating that the weapon used was "legally obtained." No other info than that, however.
Given the source as being a Justice Department official, I would take that with about a pound of salt.
Spurholder
08-06-12, 13:46
Given the source as being a Justice Department official, I would take that with about a pound of salt.
More info - looks like they're working on their talking points:
http://news.yahoo.com/wisconsin-sikh-temple-gun-purchased-legally-171331214.html
ETA: article quoting Army spokeman stating the accused had a general discharge.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/sikh-temple-shooting-suspect-u-army-wade-michael-123748845.html
Sweet, now they have "private sale" contingency too. Awesome news fellas...
polymorpheous
08-06-12, 14:59
Given the source as being a Justice Department official, I would take that with about a pound of salt.
The official was a BATFE agent, Bernard Zapor, who is working the case.
polymorpheous
08-06-12, 15:06
Local newspaper claims a source says that the shooter legally bought the pistol from a store in West Allis.
http://m.jsonline.com/news/crime/shooter-wade-page-was-army-vet-white-supremacist-856cn28-165123946.html
My observations:
1. Most if not all of these killers, like this guy in WI, the guy in Aurora, the one that shot the AZ congresswoman, buy their guns relatively in close time proximity of their planned massacre. Either weeks or a few months prior. None can be called "gun" people who have guns for decades. Ever notice that those kind of gun owners don't just "snapped" and go off on a killing spree?
2. You got a white guy who is a nazi worshipper shooting up a Sikh temple and the FBI wants to classify it as a hate crime at the minimum and possibly a terrorist act.
When an arab guy who made several contacts with al queda leaders prior to shooting up an Army base full of soldiers, and scream "allah akbar" before shooting the soldiers, they call it "work place violence".
2. You got a white guy who is a nazi worshipper shooting up a Sikh temple and the FBI wants to classify it as a hate crime at the minimum and possibly a terrorist act.
When an arab guy who made several contacts with al queda leaders prior to shooting up an Army base full of soldiers, and scream "allah akbar" before shooting the soldiers, they call it "work place violence".
Well well, you've witnessed "democracy" in action, which is exactly why the men who founded this nation founded a "republic."
Democracy is mob rule, and amerika is a democracy...which is why our "ahh" political leaders continually pander to the mob, its a system that our neo-democrats have carefully constructed, over decades and decades...Once you identify, and understand the mechanisms involved, it all becomes plainly obvious, and it should be frightening as hell...
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-12, 01:59
My observations:
1. Most if not all of these killers, like this guy in WI, the guy in Aurora, the one that shot the AZ congresswoman, buy their guns relatively in close time proximity of their planned massacre. Either weeks or a few months prior. None can be called "gun" people who have guns for decades. Ever notice that those kind of gun owners don't just "snapped" and go off on a killing spree?
2. You got a white guy who is a nazi worshipper shooting up a Sikh temple and the FBI wants to classify it as a hate crime at the minimum and possibly a terrorist act.
When an arab guy who made several contacts with al queda leaders prior to shooting up an Army base full of soldiers, and scream "allah akbar" before shooting the soldiers, they call it "work place violence".
Truth.
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-12, 02:04
And he was very definitely too dumb to know the difference between Sikhs and Muslims.
This is the picture that is emerging. Articles stating that he was calling for a "holy war". I would assume he meant to target Muslims. OOPS!
Kind of like the murders of Sikh gas station attendees in the wake of 9/11. :rolleyes:
polymorpheous
08-07-12, 05:16
Apparently responding officers shot him in the head with their patrol rifles. (and I'm sure several other places)
I drive through Oak Creek every time I go to the range.
The OCPD have AR-15 in their cruisers.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-07-12, 09:38
I've spent some time in India and I like Sikhs. They eat meat, are pretty family oriented and conservative. They seem to have a good 'success drive' and I see a lot in technical positions.
The best thing I heard about them is a comment from another Indian.
"They don't cause problems, but if you screw with them they can be really violent."
That's my kind of people. Kind of like the Texans of India.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/wisconsin-shooting-victims/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Kaleka pointed out there were no homes nearby with flags, and he wanted to show that the United States was a land of opportunity, said his son, Amardeep Kaleka.
Amardeep Kaleka told CNN that the FBI told him his father attacked the shooter in the lobby, resulting in a "blood struggle." A knife close to the victim's body showed blood on it, he said.
"From what we understand, he basically fought to the very end and suffered gunshot wounds while trying to take down the gunman," said Kanwardeep Singh Kaleka, Satwant's nephew.
To Satwant Singh Kaleka! An American hero.
I have to think the knife wounds he inflicted were the reason the gunman was leaving the temple. I'm hoping the perp had a bunch of knife wounds on him.
polymorpheous
08-07-12, 09:52
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/wisconsin-shooting-victims/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
To Satwant Singh Kaleka! An American hero.
I have to think the knife wounds he inflicted were the reason the gunman was leaving the temple. I'm hoping the perp had a bunch of knife wounds on him.
Kaleka held Page off with a butter knife no less!
When things settle down a bit, my girlfriend and I are going to make a donation to the temple.
I was very impressed with the calmness and composure of the temple members and their families.
Also confirmed today that my girlfriend's co-worker was the woman killed.
So it is reported that the murderer was on the Fed's radar before all of this happened, yet they did nothing to stop him. Not even after he bought guns. Were they letting him operate freely so they can track him to a bigger fish? is this another mini "fast and furious" in the making? I've never been a tin foil hat wearing kind of guy, but sometimes I just wonder. Anyone remember the novel "Enemies, Foreign and Domestic" by Matt Bracken?
So it is reported that the murderer was on the Fed's radar before all of this happened, yet they did nothing to stop him. Not even after he bought guns. Were they letting him operate freely so they can track him to a bigger fish? is this another mini "fast and furious" in the making? I've never been a tin foil hat wearing kind of guy, but sometimes I just wonder. Anyone remember the novel "Enemies, Foreign and Domestic" by Matt Bracken?
Unofficial reports from the FBI are that he fell off their radar due to insufficient evidence that he was committing any crimes. While vile and repulsive, his membership in hate groups and a hate-punk band is not illegal. Incidents like this appear to be the heavy cost of the civil liberties that we enjoy.
Cincinnatus
08-07-12, 12:16
Unofficial reports from the FBI are that he fell off their radar due to insufficient evidence that he was committing any crimes. While vile and repulsive, his membership in hate groups and a hate-punk band is not illegal. Incidents like this appear to be the heavy cost of the civil liberties that we enjoy.
Very true. What would the alternative be? To arrest people for expressing or holding any view deemed odious by society? You might catch some of the nutcases that way, but at what cost to civil liberty? Jefferson was right to refer to liberty as a "tempestuous sea" compared to the calm and order of tyranny.
Nevertheless, the bastard that committed these crimes is a Scumbag of the lowest order, and I am in no way saying that these types of activities are good.
Sikhs are pretty bad-*ssed warriors. It is part of their tradition. No doubt that Mr. Kaleka is a grand example of that tradition.
There are a bunch of videos on YouTube like the following that show Sikhs in the military (British and other including US)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5mrXSelzHk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba9jqcZMoyA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPr_QBFhW3M&lc
---
What would the alternative be?
I see it very simply.
Bring back the TRUE 2nd Ammendment gun culture that we were founded on, take down the barriers that many places have IRT carrying a weapon, instill in people that they are responsible for their own defense (not that police don't do the best job they can, but we all know they can't be everywhere all the time), and THEN you'll see criminals think twice about committing these types of crimes...or at the very least not get very far in carrying them out.
Ultimately we would need a culture change IRT guns and self defense...
If only...
What would the alternative be?
I see it very simply.
Bring back the TRUE 2nd Ammendment gun culture that we were founded on, take down the barriers that many places have IRT carrying a weapon, instill in people that they are responsible for their own defense (not that police don't do the best job they can, but we all know they can't be everywhere all the time), and THEN you'll see criminals think twice about committing these types of crimes...or at the very least not get very far in carrying them out.
Ultimately we would need a culture change IRT guns and self defense...
If only...
This would require that American culture cultivate a warrior mindset - good luck.
This would require that American culture cultivate a warrior mindset - good luck.
Pretty sad, isn't it?
davidjinks
08-07-12, 13:43
Sam,
That's why I commented what I did. Within an hour or so of the shooting, information started coming in about being a skin head, veteran etc...
More and more information is coming out that they have been watching this dude. Is it a coincedence that the media knew so quick about this guy?
As I stated in another thread, if people (Someone) knew this cat was going to do this and no one stopped him.....
I have not read that book. I'll look for it this weekend.
So it is reported that the murderer was on the Fed's radar before all of this happened, yet they did nothing to stop him. Not even after he bought guns. Were they letting him operate freely so they can track him to a bigger fish? is this another mini "fast and furious" in the making? I've never been a tin foil hat wearing kind of guy, but sometimes I just wonder. Anyone remember the novel "Enemies, Foreign and Domestic" by Matt Bracken?
Sam,
That's why I commented what I did. Within an hour or so of the shooting, information started coming in about being a skin head, veteran etc...
More and more information is coming out that they have been watching this dude. Is it a coincedence that the media knew so quick about this guy?
As I stated in another thread, if people (Someone) knew this cat was going to do this and no one stopped him.....
I have not read that book. I'll look for it this weekend.
The reason why the media knew so much, so quick has nothing to do with federal law enforcement having some foreknowledge and allowing the massacre (which you seem to imply). Instead, private special interests such as the Antidefimation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center kept a file on this guy and released it to the media immediately after the shootings. These private organizations can legally collect information in the public domain on other private citizens while the FBI can only do so when there is reasonable suspicion that a crime is going to be committed - this is a good thing.
I know that it has become popular in some circles to view all federal law enforcement with suspicion in the wake of Fast and Furious. However, let's not create conspiracies where they don't exist. Your average SA in the FBI makes tremenous sacrifices for their country in the course of their careers. I say give them the benefit if the doubt unless you have some evidence.
davidjinks
08-07-12, 14:23
You've got your opinion, I have mine. That's where I'll leave it.
The reason why the media knew so much, so quick has nothing to do with federal law enforcement having some foreknowledge and allowing the massacre (which you seem to imply). Instead, private special interests such as the Antidefimation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center kept a file on this guy and released it to the media immediately after the shootings. These private organizations can legally collect information in the public domain on other private citizens while the FBI can only do so when there is reasonable suspicion that a crime is going to be committed - this is a good thing.
I know that it has become popular in some circles to view all federal law enforcement with suspicion in the wake of Fast and Furious. However, let's not create conspiracies where they don't exist. Your average SA in the FBI makes tremenous sacrifices for their country in the course of their careers. I say give them the benefit if the doubt unless you have some evidence.
QuietShootr
08-07-12, 15:03
The reason why the media knew so much, so quick has nothing to do with federal law enforcement having some foreknowledge and allowing the massacre (which you seem to imply). Instead, private special interests such as the Antidefimation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center kept a file on this guy and released it to the media immediately after the shootings. These private organizations can legally collect information in the public domain on other private citizens while the FBI can only do so when there is reasonable suspicion that a crime is going to be committed - this is a good thing.
I know that it has become popular in some circles to view all federal law enforcement with suspicion in the wake of Fast and Furious. However, let's not create conspiracies where they don't exist. Your average SA in the FBI makes tremenous sacrifices for their country in the course of their careers. I say give them the benefit if the doubt unless you have some evidence.
That's ****ed up. Where are the corresponding right-leaning organizations, and why (if they exist) do they not get the near-government agency status that SPLC and ADL enjoy?
(That last is a rhetorical question. I KNOW the answer to that one.)
Perhaps turnabout is fair play. If no such organization exists, perhaps it's time to create one. (M4 Yankee Crew, spare me the screaming about bias and 'that's just your opinion, man' shit. The SPLC and ADL as as biased as the NOI, and **** you in advance for suggesting otherwise.)
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-12, 15:08
So it is reported that the murderer was on the Fed's radar before all of this happened, yet they did nothing to stop him. Not even after he bought guns. Were they letting him operate freely so they can track him to a bigger fish? is this another mini "fast and furious" in the making? I've never been a tin foil hat wearing kind of guy, but sometimes I just wonder. Anyone remember the novel "Enemies, Foreign and Domestic" by Matt Bracken?
As was McVeigh and the 9/11 hijackers. I'm seeing a pattern here.
That's ****ed up. Where are the corresponding right-leaning organizations, and why (if they exist) do they not get the near-government agency status that SPLC and ADL enjoy?
(That last is a rhetorical question. I KNOW the answer to that one.)
Perhaps turnabout is fair play. If no such organization exists, perhaps it's time to create one. (M4 Yankee Crew, spare me the screaming about bias and 'that's just your opinion, man' shit. The SPLC and ADL as as biased as the NOI, and **** you in advance for suggesting otherwise.)
There are a number of conservative watchdog groups that do excellent work furthering our causes - Landmark Legal Foundation, Heritage Foundation, and even the NRA are a few of my favorites. However, the purpose of my post that you quoted was to merely correct the record with facts as to how the media got out in front of this story. I have no love for the SPLC, so please do not include me in your list of forum members who need to copulate with themselves.
As was McVeigh and the 9/11 hijackers. I'm seeing a pattern here.
Yep. I support the law enforcement community 100%. I just don't trust their administrators.
Sorry if I caused this thread to go off on a tangent. Again, I commend the local Wisconsin police for dealing with this scum bag in a swift manner. I applaud the president of the temple for trying to fight back, even though he only had a butter knife. Prayers and condolenses to the innocents who lost their lives and those injured.
As was McVeigh and the 9/11 hijackers. I'm seeing a pattern here.
Yeh, it's called, "We can't arrest suspected terrorists before they committ any crimes, and we can't follow around every racist asshole who decides to act out the lyrics of a punk-hate band."
Do you really want to change that? Think of the police state that you would live in.
QuietShootr
08-07-12, 15:25
There are a number of conservative watchdog groups that do excellent work furthering our causes - Landmark Legal Foundation, Heritage Foundation, and even the NRA are a few of my favorites. However, the purpose of my post that you quoted was to merely correct the record with facts as to how the media got out in front of this story. I have no love for the SPLC, so please do not include me in your list of forum members who need to copulate with themselves.
Wasn't.
And those groups are all well and good, but they do NOT have "Intelligence Gathering" groups and files on individuals. What I'm suggesting is that we do exactly as they do, and see how they react to it. - the equivalent of when the newspaper publishes a list of names and addresses of CCW holders, then the CCW organization should publish a list of names and addresses of reporters and editors.
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-12, 15:33
Yeh, it's called, "We can't arrest suspected terrorists before they committ any crimes, and we can't follow around every racist asshole who decides to act out the lyrics of a punk-hate band."
Do you really want to change that? Think of the police state that you would live in.
Or maybe they wanted these "attacks" to transpire, "never let a good crisis go to waste". ;)
There is always an angle.
Or maybe they wanted these "attacks" to transpire, "never let a good crisis go to waste". ;)
There is always an angle.
Ah, the 9/11 Truther-lite angle (just 1 calorie - the FBI didn't actually blow the buildings, they just stood back and let it happen). Now, who is They? Could you name some names?
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-12, 15:56
Ah, the 9/11 Truther-lite angle (just 1 calorie - the FBI didn't actually blow the buildings, they just stood back and let it happen). Now, who is They? Could you name some names?
Lt. Col Anthony Shaffer who served in the DIA wrote a little book (Operation Dark Heart) that got quit a few people in the know really worried.
So much so the DOD bought and burned all 9,500 copies of its first edition as it detailed knowledge of known cells in CONUS to include the 9/11 crew.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/26/pentagon-paid-destroy-sept-memoir/
But of course they say they did it in the name of OPSEC.
Lt. Col Anthony Shaffer who served in the DIA wrote a little book (Operation Dark Heart) that got quit a few people in the know really worried.
So much so the DOD bought and burned all 9,500 copies of its first edition as it detailed knowledge of known cells in CONUS to include the 9/11 crew.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/26/pentagon-paid-destroy-sept-memoir/
But of course they say they did it in the name of OPSEC.
OK, I'll look into it in a few days and PM you when I'm done.
Ah, the 9/11 Truther-lite angle (just 1 calorie - the FBI didn't actually blow the buildings, they just stood back and let it happen). Now, who is They? Could you name some names?
Did you notice the "smilie" at the end of his post?
Yeh, it's called, "We can't arrest suspected terrorists before they committ any crimes, and we can't follow around every racist asshole who decides to act out the lyrics of a punk-hate band."
Isn't that how we got "fast and furious"? let the criminals buy guns and see where that will lead to, but it blew up when the bad guys used those guns to kill a US agent.
Do you really want to change that? Think of the police state that you would live in.
I'm not in law enforcement, but I'm sure it is obvious by now, but I'm sure there are plenty of legal methods that the LE can do to keep tab on suspects.
AGAIN, I DON'T WEAR A TIN FOIL HAT. :)
Two things:
1) People shouldn't be followed, or tracked, based on "thought policing". By anyone. It happens, and I'm not naive, but the fact that private companies have "files" means that the government has "files" when they need them. Bank on it.
2) The average person needs to embrace the fact that THEY are their own defense. Not a cop, not a federal agent, and not anyone else, any where. This should be their mindset when they step on a plane, and wonder why they are disarmed. It should be a thought when they go in to a courthouse, or a post office, and are stripped of their own means of self defense. You don't need to be condition red every second, but you are it -- the last line -- #1 for yourself, and your family.
Moose-Knuckle
08-07-12, 17:24
Yeah I don't wear tin foil (to the surprise of some here) and I sure as hell am not for George Orwell's 'Thought Police' or Philip K. Dick's 'Pre-Crime Police Force'. Those paths lead to dark days for sure.
However I am very leery of our .gov that has prior knowledge of all these “domestic terrorists”, “terrorists”, and “lone wolves” and yet they still execute their attacks.
davidjinks
08-07-12, 22:03
THANK YOU!!!!!
It seems that there are those out there who don't want to admit that no bullshit point!
Yeah I don't wear tin foil (to the surprise of some here) and I sure as hell am not for George Orwell's 'Thought Police' or Philip K. Dick's 'Pre-Crime Police Force'. Those paths lead to dark days for sure.
However I am very leery of our .gov that has prior knowledge of all these “domestic terrorists”, “terrorists”, and “lone wolves” and yet they still execute their attacks.
Yeah I don't wear tin foil (to the surprise of some here) and I sure as hell am not for George Orwell's 'Thought Police' or Philip K. Dick's 'Pre-Crime Police Force'. Those paths lead to dark days for sure.
However I am very leery of our .gov that has prior knowledge of all these “domestic terrorists”, “terrorists”, and “lone wolves” and yet they still execute their attacks.
That's because of the mentality of our laws and law enforcement. We don't expect or comprehend internal forces plotting these attacks. Traditionally, there are 6-8 steps to a terrorist attack (depending on which model you use). If you exclude the criminal conspiracy laws that are extremely difficult to prosecute without an actual or foiled attack, an actual physical crime doesn't occur until steps 5-7. What exactly do you expect law enforcement to do when no crime is evident? We can "know" what they're up to all we want. It doesn't make it an easy proposition to take them down. Look at the thread where they caught the guy in the Ohio theater acting strange. Good police work or overzealous enforcement?
It takes very creative thinking and some fancy footwork near or at the edge of the law to effect those outcomes. Not even the FBI has unlimited resources to track extremist groups 24/7, much less extremist individuals. :(
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-07-12, 22:25
That's because of the mentality of our laws and law enforcement. We don't expect or comprehend internal forces plotting these attacks. Traditionally, there are 6-8 steps to a terrorist attack (depending on which model you use). If you exclude the criminal conspiracy laws that are extremely difficult to prosecute without an actual or foiled attack, an actual physical crime doesn't occur until steps 5-7. What exactly do you expect law enforcement to do when no crime is evident? We can "know" what they're up to all we want. It doesn't make it an easy proposition to take them down. Look at the thread where they caught the guy in the Ohio theater acting strange. Good police work or overzealous enforcement?
It takes very creative thinking and some fancy footwork near or at the edge of the law to effect those outcomes. Not even the FBI has unlimited resources to track extremist groups 24/7, much less extremist individuals. :(
Aren't there two different things, or even three. While Aurora was straight up crazy, Oak Creek was 50:50 crazy: political but an act of a single person, versus a 'rational' organized multi-actor attack. Is that what your model is reffering to?
When was the last true no-warning mass shooting?? It seems all the actors recently have been under care or observation - in the official sense. We're not just talking about people who others find odd or scary.
THANK YOU!!!!!
It seems that there are those out there who don't want to admit that no bullshit point!
Nah, I just don't think that it is plausible that dozens of FBI SA's simultaneously turned traitor to allow all of these events. Hell, the world's most powerful man can't get a blow job from the intern without the press getting wind - much less suppress evidence of major terrorist attacks.
Just so we are clear, you are saying that FBI agents of the Milwaukee Field Office had knowledge that this guy was planning a terrorist attack, but decided not to act in order to futher some agenda? Moreover, you believe that other groups of agents had prior knowledge of 9/11 and OK City, but also allowed those attacks?
If all of this is true, it sounds like someone needs to revamp the curriculum at Quantico.
Just so we are clear, you are saying that FBI agents of the Milwaukee Field Office had knowledge that this guy was planning a terrorist attack, but decided not to act in order to futher some agenda? Moreover, you believe that other groups of agents had prior knowledge of 9/11 and OK City, but also allowed those attacks?
Not saying I disagree with your underlying motive, but this is what is known as a "strawman". You have placed words in his mouth, and then attacked him on those words you chose. It shows weakness in debate.
You should give him an ample opportunity to explain, in his own words, before attacking the opinion on the merits of your chosen words.
davidjinks
08-08-12, 13:40
I never said anything like that.
I believe that, throughout history, the knowledge of pending attacks (Terrorism, mass shootings, terror plots etc.) are known and have been known and they have let them ride.
How many ATF agents died in OK? How many federal agents were present in OK for duty when the bomb detonated?
Able Danger was tracking 9/11 terrorists a year prior to 9/11. DIA knew as did the CIA and FBI. Yet 9/11 still happened.
The FBI was tracking/watching the most recent shooter of the Sikhs. Yet the shooter was still able to carry out his actions.
Holmes admitted to his shrink he was going to commit murder. That was enough to report it to the authorities. Yet he still committed his acts.
I believe that there are those in this country who know without a doubt that there are people in this country who are willing to and are going to commit nefarious acts against the people. Yet they do nothing about it.
Do I think that the regular joe SA beatin the street does this? No I do not. I believe that their superiors make the calls and they follow their orders.
Fast and Furious is the apitomy of this.
As I said before, you have your opinions and I have mine.
Nah, I just don't think that it is plausible that dozens of FBI SA's simultaneously turned traitor to allow all of these events. Hell, the world's most powerful man can't get a blow job from the intern without the press getting wind - much less suppress evidence of major terrorist attacks.
Just so we are clear, you are saying that FBI agents of the Milwaukee Field Office had knowledge that this guy was planning a terrorist attack, but decided not to act in order to futher some agenda? Moreover, you believe that other groups of agents had prior knowledge of 9/11 and OK City, but also allowed those attacks?
If all of this is true, it sounds like someone needs to revamp the curriculum at Quantico.
Not saying I disagree with your underlying motive, but this is what is known as a "strawman". You have placed words in his mouth, and then attacked him on those words you chose. It shows weakness in debate.
You should give him an ample opportunity to explain, in his own words, before attacking the opinion on the merits of your chosen words.
I'm not sure if you've read posts 78 and 79 of this thread. If so, I hope that you would agree that I made a good faith attempt for him to clarify his position. Instead, he has continued down this line of soft accusations and innuendo without any supporting evidence.
davidjinks
08-08-12, 13:53
Let's get a couple things straight...
I owe you no explanation for anything. If I choose to give "soft" answers so be it.
You don't like what I've said, put me on your ignore list. You got an axe to grind with me, come out and say it.
I've given my opinion based answers. As have you. That's it. You seem not to like what I've said, too bad.
Have a good one!
Let me further add: you've brought nothing to the table other than opinion without any hard facts. So as I've said before, it's an opinion. You apparently don't like mine. With that being said, I'm done with you.
I'm not sure if you've read posts 78 and 79 of this thread. If so, I hope that you would agree that I made a good faith attempt for him to clarify his position. Instead, he has continued down this line of soft accusations and innuendo without any supporting evidence.
I believe that, throughout history, the knowledge of pending attacks (Terrorism, mass shootings, terror plots etc.) are known and have been known and they have let them ride.
How many ATF agents died in OK? How many federal agents were present in OK for duty when the bomb detonated?
Thanks for clarifying your position.
Let's get a couple things straight...
I owe you no explanation for anything. If I choose to give "soft" answers so be it.
You don't like what I've said, put me on your ignore list. You got an axe to grind with me, come out and say it.
No real axe to grind with you - just your accusations. BTW, I'm not the one accusing federal agents of treason, so I'm not the one who has to produce facts.
montanadave
08-08-12, 14:32
BTW, I'm not the one accusing federal agents of treason, so I'm not the one who has to produce facts.
Tru dat.
Read the sig line.
News is now reporting that Page was wounded by police and then shot himself in the head.
montanadave
08-08-12, 15:57
News is now reporting that Page was wounded by police and then shot himself in the head.
Why can't these ****ups ever just cut to the chase, blow their brains out in the privacy of their own living room, and leave the rest of us out of it?
It's as senseless as the mom or dad who can't bear the thought of leaving their children behind so they kill them first.
Self-centered lunatics all.
I've spent some time in India and I like Sikhs.
My understanding was they were a warrior class at one time no? That may be what seems to set them apart in some respects.
VooDoo6Actual
08-08-12, 16:38
My understanding was they were a warrior class at one time no? That may be what seems to set them apart in some respects.
Correct. Battle of Saragarhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?172754-Battle-Of-Saragarhi-One-of-the-most-famous-last-stands-in-history
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/23478-battle-of-saragarhi.html
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