View Full Version : Accuracy, what is good 'nuf?
highlighter
08-05-12, 20:37
100 yards benchrest Eotech and IBUS. What is a average to good group? Not rapid fire but not slow fire either?
Kind of a subjective question don't you think? What rifle are you using? Are you standing, kneeling or prone? Are you using sand bags? I have heard there is a difference between what a rifle can do with respect to accuracy and what a person can do.
Kind of a subjective question don't you think? What rifle are you using? Are you standing, kneeling or prone? Are you using sand bags? I have heard there is a difference between what a rifle can do with respect to accuracy and what a person can do.
This..Along with ammo being used would help narrow down expectations. For example, a rack grade 16" M4 Type rifle with 55gr FMJ, 2-3" is more than acceptable for me and anything better than that is a bonus.
With my Noveske 18" SS and using factory 77gr MK262 / 75grn 5.56 TAP, I usually get around 1-1.5" 10 shot groups using a bipod and rear bag prone..
highlighter
08-05-12, 21:06
This..Along with ammo being used would help narrow down expectations. For example, a rack grade 16" M4 Type rifle with 55gr FMJ, 2-3" is more than acceptable for me and anything better than that is a bonus.
With my Noveske 18" SS and using factory 77gr MK262 / 75grn 5.56 TAP, I usually get around 1-1.5" 10 shot groups using a bipod and rear bag prone..
Thanks. I shot some cheap Norinco ammo from a benchrest using a 14.5" barrel ar-15 w/ Eotech and buis at a 100 yards. I could keep them all on paper but I was all over the place. I was shooting at a Hoppes s-5 sighting in target which is 14"x14". http://www.pcsoutdoors.com/hoppesmodels5sightinin1sqtarget.aspx
I can shoot .5" groups at this target with my Remington 700 using Federal Goldmatch .308. No compairsion I know that's why I was asking what to expect out of the ar-15.
Kind of a subjective question don't you think? What rifle are you using? Are you standing, kneeling or prone? Are you using sand bags? I have heard there is a difference between what a rifle can do with respect to accuracy and what a person can do.
No, not this. Highlighter asked from a bench. Since the above post ends with "I have heard there is a difference between what a rifle can do with respect to accuracy and what a person can do", it's clear the poster has little experience shooting for accuracy or they would know.
Highlighter, this is a subject that with some dedicated searching, you'll get an idea what kind of accuracy you can expect from an AR carbine with bulk ammo from a bench. Although there is no absolute answer, on the average you can expect to get around 2.5 moa at reasonable distances. That can be shrunk quite a bit by finding what ammo your rifle really likes and refining your benchrest techniques. Using the orange SEARCH button above, you can gather more information, pick up a few pointers about shooting your AR and refine your questions
Good 'nuf? A 10 foot group might be good 'nuf to hit a barn. 2 inches might be good 'nuf to hit a tennis ball. Of course there is a lot in between.
I shot some cheap Norinco ammo
Herein lies part of the problem.
in this case even benched there will be shooter variation. I can shoot better groups prone with a sling than I can from a bench, but that is because I have shot conventional NRA high power for years. other than the shooter the greatest variable is going to be ammo. cheap 55 grain blasting ammo might do as good as 2 -2.5 inches at 100 but is more likely to give you 4 inches. the same gun under the same conditions and shooter with match ammo may go under 2 inches but then again might not. the old computer saying garbage in garbage out applies to rifles and the ammo they are fed.
"benchrest" should yeild best accuracy under any conditions.
after all...the rifle is supported (presumably at both ends) ammo is select and yardage is known..results should be consistent if weather/wind permits.
any "Supported" position is superior to a NON- supported position.
at 100 yds, my rem 700 and savage 12 will shoot one hole groups from "Benchrest"...that changes dramatically when i go un-supported.
the results will tell if it's your equipment, or you.
Accuracy is more closely tied to ammunition and barrel than optic choice. Optic can help the shooter, but if the ammunition and barrel aren't capable, you'll only do so good.
So much is tied to ammunition, but many won't spend the money.
If you are using bulk 55gr FMJ ammunition, 2-3 MOA 10 round groups would be my expectation. Match ammunition with a match barrel I would expect 1 MOA or better.
Ten strings of ten shots each. Measure the diameter with a standard of each group and use the group diameters to calculate SD and ave.
Arbitrarily a group in the future fired the same way that is greater than 2 SD from the average is good or bad but not average.
Arguably 3 shots rapid in the kill zone is a good group.
SilentReaper66
08-06-12, 12:20
"benchrest" should yeild best accuracy under any conditions.
after all...the rifle is supported (presumably at both ends) ammo is select and yardage is known..results should be consistent if weather/wind permits.
any "Supported" position is superior to a NON- supported position.
at 100 yds, my rem 700 and savage 12 will shoot one hole groups from "Benchrest"...that changes dramatically when i go un-supported.
the results will tell if it's your equipment, or you.
You have some pics of said one hole shooting?
highlighter
08-06-12, 13:16
Herein lies part of the problem.
Yeah, I know man. Next time I go shoot I'm gonna pull out some good stuff and save that Norinco for up close shooting drills.
highlighter
08-06-12, 13:18
You have some pics of said one hole shooting?
I don't have any pics but I have shot three round groups almost through one hole. Under .5moa for sure but I can't do it consistently.
I don't have any pics but I have shot three round groups almost through one hole. Under .5moa for sure but I can't do it consistently.
3 shot groups :lazy2:
Why not 2 shot groups? I could then say my 14.5" LMT shoots quarter moa with XM193!
100 yards benchrest Eotech and IBUS. What is a average to good group? Not rapid fire but not slow fire either?
100 yard red dot is an extremely subjective thing. Before my eyes took a dump on me(astigmatism), 1.5 to 5 inches depending on rifle, conditions, etc in the ar world.
I can not say with certainty what is "good enough" for you. That is a broad brush stroke of a topic. Certain guys here would find my shooting unacceptable. And I don't give a damn. I shoot for entertainment only. I compete only against myself and occasionally my friends. I am not world class, but I am competent and safe. That is "good enough" for me.
I don't have any pics but I have shot three round groups almost through one hole. Under .5moa for sure but I can't do it consistently.
And that's the problem with three round groups. The gun/ammunition/shooter combo isn't that accurate, its by chance they are touching.
You'd be surprised how consistent your groups are when shooting 10 round ones.
Ten strings of ten shots each. Measure the diameter with a standard of each group and use the group diameters to calculate SD and ave.
Arbitrarily a group in the future fired the same way that is greater than 2 SD from the average is good or bad but not average.
Arguably 3 shots rapid in the kill zone is a good group.
Kill zone? By what measure would this be a good group?
Sorry BP, just trying to have some fun.
Accuracy is the arrow striking the bullseye, so to speak.
What the OP needs to do is define the bullseye for that rifle.
If purely for sport it might be ones personal best, it
may be what kills the enemy, or it may be shooting to mechanical accuracy.
You should never accept anything in life as "good 'nuf", you should always be challenging yourself to do better.
That said, what is the mechanical accuracy of your barrel and the ammo you are shooting? If its in a bench rest you should be achieving what ever that mechanical accuracy is.
You should never accept anything in life as "good 'nuf", you should always be challenging yourself to do better.
That sounds good and all, but nobody has the resources (time and money most notably) to maximize everything.
You have to select the thing or things that you wish to put additional effort in. On a forum like M4C it is easy to assume that most posters will choose their shooting, but that will not always be the case. They might choose to devote that time to other aspects of their lives.
I'm happy with 2-3 moa bench rested/prone. While standing and firing twice per second, I can usually keep a group down to about 8 moa. When ultimate accuracy is your goal, never stand when you can squat and never squat when you can prone out.
Carbine, iron sights, with standard military ball (xm193), 3 inches at 100 yards is good. This is a battle rifle, not a target gun.
highlighter
08-07-12, 22:39
Carbine, iron sights, with standard military ball (xm193), 3 inches at 100 yards is good. This is a battle rifle, not a target gun.
Thanks.
QuickStrike
08-07-12, 23:41
I recently sighted in my 6490 with an aimpoint m4 at fifty yards.
I settled on a 10-shot group of 1.5-2" as the dot was covering most of the 3" shoot-n-C target anyway.
It'll do for my uses.
I would expect this group at 100 yards with a magnified optic on a precision set up.
It depends on your ability and setup, and what you want to do with them imo.
Failure2Stop
08-08-12, 08:28
If I have the option, I prefer to have a 2 MOA or better carbine; as tested by me, in the prone, magazine monopod at 100 meters. I don't really care about getting 1/4 MOA groups from a bench and sandbags, because that isn't how I use my ARs.
I generally meet my precision requirements by simply switching to good ammo.
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KalashniKEV
08-08-12, 12:06
I personally have very low accuracy requirements... like 3-4 or even 5 MOA. All of those equate to shooting someone in the face at 100m or a solid upper torso hit within 300m.
If I slow things way down and get all Zen with it, of course I can do more.
Yeah... I know on the internet anyone with an AR that isn't shooting "Sub MOA or durn close" is a substandard marksman or whatever... and everyone has a "sub MOA Swiss K31" and can pull off extreme pistol shots too.
I shoot through dimes, duh
but @100 there are other factors than can come into factor, wind etc. 1-2in is acceptable for me
midSCarolina
08-09-12, 10:39
Off the bench with an EOTech at 100 yards, I am happy with a 10 shot 2-3" group. I get about the same accuracy with my Acog. I think a 2moa AR is good... ARs are combat rifles and aren't designed to be long range precision weapons.
When I had my 1-4x optic on my carbine, and using Lake City M855 ammo... I was consistently getting 1.5-1.75 MOA @100
Now I have an RDS with a 2MOA dot, and using some cheap WPA bulk ammo, I was getting about 3-5 MOA @100 lol
S&W MP15OR hand supported off of a bench
...ARs are combat rifles and aren't designed to be long range precision weapons.
Actually, they are. It was intended that with the addition of an optic, the AR would be used as what we now call a DMR and was the basic design engineered to deliver accurate fire
Actually, they are. It was intended that with the addition of an optic, the AR would be used as what we now call a DMR and was the basic design engineered to deliver accurate fire
Yeah in a rifle length system. Not so much with a carbine
A 14.5" barrel isn't any less accurate than a 20" barrel and an AR carbine has more reach than most credit it
I guess you don't have much experience with precision AR's. When I attended the SPR Sniper Course we engaged targets past 800 yards with proper glass and ammo.
There are a few of us out in AZ that shoot steel out to 500 yards with SBR's and standard carbines.
Off the bench with an EOTech at 100 yards, I am happy with a 10 shot 2-3" group. I get about the same accuracy with my Acog. I think a 2moa AR is good... ARs are combat rifles and aren't designed to be long range precision weapons.
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