View Full Version : Need Advice: Firearm For A Friend With Safety Issues...
I have a longtime friend who is moving back to my area. He is interested in guns and shooting and has owned them in the past. Just one problem, he had a bad ND once and it's part of the reason he doesn't own guns now.
To make matters worse he shot a friend in the foot when it happened. He isn't a bad person and he's not a retard, he just never had anyone teach him gun safety or stress it to the point that he internalized it. While in his mind it was an "accident" it would never have happened if he was paying attention to where the gun was pointed and he kept his finger off the trigger.
And now he wants a handgun, and he wants me to get him one. I don't know what, if anything, he has learned about gun safety since the incident and he has a wife with two kids. And he wants a Glock (of course).
I know the standard line is to send him to a gun safety class but that won't happen. I already know the "I don't have the time, money, etc." reasons he will have for not doing it. I have been around him shooting a few times and didn't see anything noticeably "unsafe" but that was also before the incident. I also wasn't paying close attention and looking for problems.
I don't fancy myself a "firearms instructor" but I'm concerned enough that I'm thinking about taking him shooting a few times and trying to really pound the 4 rules into his brain and ride his ass if he even comes close to doing something unsafe. But at the same time, I don't want to act like he's a moron who needs my supervision and instruction. The big problem of course is he believes he already knows this stuff.
What do you mean by, "he wants me to get him one"? Do you mean he wants your recommendation as to what to get, or are you talking about straw purchasing, which is illegal?
What do you mean by, "he wants me to get him one"? Do you mean he wants your recommendation as to what to get, or are you talking about straw purchasing, which is illegal?
Well as he is not a "prohibited person" it wouldn't be a straw purchase if I gave him one as a gift. But in this instance, I am a FFL and he simply wants to purchase one from me.
I would reccommend something that's double action only. Maybe a Sig with the dak trigger.
Well, like it or not, you will by default, become his mentor. I'd take him out, and let him try several pistols, Glock, M&P, etc, throw in a DA/SA pistol as well.Let him shoot and watch for anything stupid, and if anything pops up, bring it to his attention right there on the spot, and correct him. If he continues to do it, end the session, and explain stupid mistakes cannot be tolerated, because when that bullet flys out of the barrel, it dosen't care where it's going, there's no calling it back.Make him go home and think about it.. I would'nt sell him anything until he could demostrate that...
A. He understands the basic concept that all firearms are considered loaded, and they are to be treated that way..
B.If he understands A above, then he should also be able to grasp the concept of keeping his trigger finger OFF the trigger, unless he wants to put a hole in whatever he's aiming at..
C. Continue to stress to him to seek training...When he throws up the "I don't have time" shit, Remind him that if he has another ND/AD and kills someone, the state will find time for him, in a cell.. His choice.
QuietShootr
08-06-12, 07:53
Get him a surplus S&W Model 10, cut the hammer spur and single action sear surface off so it's DA only, and tell him if he so much as touches any other gun and you hear about it, he's all done.
Then teach him how to shoot it.
Tell him to straighten his shit out. Teach him what he needs to know, if he wont shape up....its time to ship out.
QuietShootr
08-06-12, 08:27
Tell him to straighten his shit out. Teach him what he needs to know, if he wont shape up....its time to ship out.
This, too. I'm just in a good mood this morning, so I softened my answer a little:D
An Undocumented Worker
08-06-12, 08:32
Get him to an Appleseed shoot, they are cheap, fun, and they pound safety into your head, and so do all of the other people there if you are lax about it.
I wouldn't get that guy anything untill he completely understands that he is the only one responsible for where those rounds end up.
Also the word "accident" needs to be erased from his mind. Somehow someway, untill that happens I don't think there is any hope for him.
Well as he is not a "prohibited person" it wouldn't be a straw purchase if I gave him one as a gift. But in this instance, I am a FFL and he simply wants to purchase one from me.
Ah, thanks for clarifying. :cool:
I have some experience trying to train the untrainable. There is only one cure. Short of that, don't walk away from this guy. RUN!
And God help his poor family.
RogerinTPA
08-06-12, 10:23
I've known people like this in the past. They have dense gray matter that is almost impenetrable. I wouldn't take the responsibility of placing a weapon into the hands of a known Ding Dong. Having a beer or breaking bread with this friend, OK, but I'd defer to some other FFL in your area and stay clear of going to the range until he can clearly demonstrate a level of safety that you are comfortable with, and tell him so. Personally, with folks like that, I don't even talk gun anything with them. I promptly change the subject or walk away.
montanadave
08-06-12, 10:46
From the comment in the OP about "had a bad ND once and it's part of the reason he doesn't own guns now," it seems likely that Steyr's friend appreciates the destructive potential of a handgun and, if anything, has a lack of confidence around firearms as opposed to the careless overconfidence some seem to suggest.
Regardless, I wouldn't feel comfortable facilitating his acquisition of a handgun until he takes some instruction, gets back in the saddle, and demonstrates both safe gun handling techniques and proficiency. And I'd just tell him straight out, "Hey. I think you had a bad experience. I think it shook you up and made you uncomfortable around guns. And now I'm uncomfortable handing one to you until you get your head straight."
I would use the ND as a main training point as in "you remember when?" we don't want that to happen again .
I would think something with a manual safety would be better Like the XD or M&P ( do they have safeties?) if he is dead set on a Glock style Pistol .But in the end it will just take hammering in his head about the safe handling of the weapon .
S&W Centennial. It's as close to retard proof as one can make a handgun and it still be reasonably effective.
From the comment in the OP about "had a bad ND once and it's part of the reason he doesn't own guns now," it seems likely that Steyr's friend appreciates the destructive potential of a handgun and, if anything, has a lack of confidence around firearms as opposed to the careless overconfidence some seem to suggest.
Regardless, I wouldn't feel comfortable facilitating his acquisition of a handgun until he takes some instruction, gets back in the saddle, and demonstrates both safe gun handling techniques and proficiency. And I'd just tell him straight out, "Hey. I think you had a bad experience. I think it shook you up and made you uncomfortable around guns. And now I'm uncomfortable handing one to you until you get your head straight."
That is pretty much the situation.
If this wasn't a very good friend, it wouldn't be a problem at all. But I think I have a solution. I have another friend who is mostly new to shooting and has no safety concerns, in fact he will still sometimes stop everything he's doing just to evaluate things and make sure he's "safe." We'll call him Friend B.
So my plan is to tell Friend A that I need his help introducing Friend B to firearms and we both need to really watch him for safety issues. In reality Friend B will be "in on it" and will actually be keeping an eye on Friend A and helping me with him. And the entire event will revolve around everyone making sure everyone else is being "safe."
If Friend A becomes responsible for making sure Friend B is safe, then he will be much more mindful of those safety issues himself. And it "should" make him assume the role of a "responsible shooter" in order to present an example to follow. And hopefully that will allow him to internalize all this shit.
I also plan to show him what I'll represent as "advanced skills" which will be predicated on redundant safe handling skills.
I know the standard line is to send him to a gun safety class but that won't happen. I already know the "I don't have the time, money, etc." reasons he will have for not doing it.
Don't enable the guy by calling them "reasons." They're not reasons. These are excuses. For an individual who has already had a Negligent Discharge where someone was hurt, he has no grounds to argue that a basic firearms gun safety course isn't for him. Instead of trying to accommodate your friend to make him happy, you should help him by letting him know that he is being completely unreasonable. In a nutshell, if it's important to him he will find the time and the money. If it's not, he won't. By refusing to go to a gun safety class he's already told you that while he is aware of the dangers he is unwilling to be serious about gun safety.
Gun safety courses are just a few hours and cost relatively little money. If you're his friend and you want to make this easier for him, pay for a course so he has one less excuse. Beyond that, tell him if he's not willing to help himself by attending a gun safety class, there's no reason for you to aid him in his quest to be an irresponsible gun owner. We already have enough of those types out there and they make all gun owners look bad.
Failure2Stop
08-06-12, 13:46
Something that launches a 7mm plastic sphere.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
That is pretty much the situation.
So my plan is to tell Friend A that I need his help introducing Friend B to firearms and we both need to really watch him for safety issues. In reality Friend B will be "in on it" and will actually be keeping an eye on Friend A and helping me with him. And the entire event will revolve around everyone making sure everyone else is being "safe."
If Friend A becomes responsible for making sure Friend B is safe, then he will be much more mindful of those safety issues himself. And it "should" make him assume the role of a "responsible shooter" in order to present an example to follow. And hopefully that will allow him to internalize all this shit.
I also plan to show him what I'll represent as "advanced skills" which will be predicated on redundant safe handling skills.
When does Ashton Kutcher come out and tell everyone they got Punk'd?
Dude forget some elaborate puppet-master scheme and just approach it honestly.
Your plan sounds borderline crazy. No offense.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg
When does Ashton Kutcher come out and tell everyone they got Punk'd?
Dude forget some elaborate puppet-master scheme and just approach it honestly.
Your plan sounds borderline crazy. No offense.
Borderline crazy? Really?
It's not some Machiavellian scheme to elect the next Pope. It's simply me recognizing that for this person, making him think he is responsible for helping me teach "gun safety" to another friend is probably the most effective way for him to internalize the concepts for himself.
The alternative is nothing. He thinks he's safe, his logic being he is careful now that he's had an accident. If I pull his card and tell him I don't think he is safe, he's simply going to be offended and he won't get any safer. He's not in the military where I have discretionary authority over what he learns.
My "crazy plan" involves getting him to the range with two other "safe shooters" who will keep an eye on him and at the same time getting him thinking about "gun safety issues" by suggesting he help me keep an eye on another friend of ours to make sure he is shooting safe. As a consequence he is thinking about safety and emulating a person who is already a safe shooter.
Call me crazy if you want, but so far that's the best plan I can come up with that will work. Sure it's a Jedi mind trick, but that is simply so I can skip the part where I offend him by suggesting he needs some remedial gun safety practice.
I don't think your plan is going to work, if I thought I could just tell him and he'd take a gun safety course I'd do that. I know him well enough to know that he won't think it's necessary.
crusader377
08-06-12, 14:29
How about a good handgun safety class or two and then have him get a Ruger SP101 double action revolver in .22LR. DA revolvers are at least somewhat idiot proof and with a .22LR he is least likely of killing someone if he had a negligent discharge.
Borderline crazy? Really?
It's not some Machiavellian scheme to elect the next Pope. It's simply me recognizing that for this person, making him think he is responsible for helping me teach "gun safety" to another friend is probably the most effective way for him to internalize the concepts for himself.
The alternative is nothing. He thinks he's safe, his logic being he is careful now that he's had an accident. If I pull his card and tell him I don't think he is safe, he's simply going to be offended and he won't get any safer. He's not in the military where I have discretionary authority over what he learns.
My "crazy plan" involves getting him to the range with two other "safe shooters" who will keep an eye on him and at the same time getting him thinking about "gun safety issues" by suggesting he help me keep an eye on another friend of ours to make sure he is shooting safe. As a consequence he is thinking about safety and emulating a person who is already a safe shooter.
Call me crazy if you want, but so far that's the best plan I can come up with that will work. Sure it's a Jedi mind trick, but that is simply so I can skip the part where I offend him by suggesting he needs some remedial gun safety practice.
I don't think your plan is going to work, if I thought I could just tell him and he'd take a gun safety course I'd do that. I know him well enough to know that he won't think it's necessary.
I was only half-serious about the crazy part. Like when you tell somebody "that's crazy" but you don't literally mean insane in the strongest sense of the word.
Anyway, I still think that people pick up on subtle social-ques. If he picks up on the fact that he's being manipulated (which is what you are doing), what do you think that will do to his confidence? Realizing that you're the subject of somebody's social experiment (or even suspecting that you are), seems far worse than being approached honestly. Is his psyche is so fragile that he can't handle a simple, frank discussion?
Is your other friend going to be obvious about what's happening? Even if he's not obvious about it, will something being "off" be noticeable?
Just seems strange to me to have to set up a scheme where friends are lying to each other just to go shooting safely. Maybe it's not crazy, but it is weird.
montanadave
08-06-12, 14:36
So it's a tad manipulative. Who gives a shit if it gets him where he needs to be?
And, no, I'm not a "the ends justify the means" guy in every situation lest anyone leap to that generalization. I just think Steyr may have hit upon a possible solution that's worth a try.
Cincinnatus
08-06-12, 14:46
Steyr, I think your plan sounds reasonable and promising. In fact, I think it is a clever way to teach the guy safety while letting him save face at the same time.
Sure it's a Jedi mind trick, but that is simply so I can skip the part where I offend him by suggesting he needs some remedial gun safety practice.
I don't think your plan is going to work, if I thought I could just tell him and he'd take a gun safety course I'd do that. I know him well enough to know that he won't think it's necessary.
Your friend negligently shot someone else. At what point would having remedial gun safety practice NOT be in order? If your buddy's ego is that big & fragile maybe putting a gun in his hand isn't the greatest idea.
Take the lead and and 30 mins of your time to get him up to speed or stay out of it altogether but he'll probably still get the heater somewhere else and still not get the knowledge that he needs if you do.
jklaughrey
08-06-12, 16:02
NERF gun comes to mind as being a good match for him and his ego. Anything else is just a ND waiting to happen.
Anyway, I still think that people pick up on subtle social-ques. If he picks up on the fact that he's being manipulated (which is what you are doing), what do you think that will do to his confidence? Realizing that you're the subject of somebody's social experiment (or even suspecting that you are), seems far worse than being approached honestly. Is his psyche is so fragile that he can't handle a simple, frank discussion?
Is your other friend going to be obvious about what's happening? Even if he's not obvious about it, will something being "off" be noticeable?
Just seems strange to me to have to set up a scheme where friends are lying to each other just to go shooting safely. Maybe it's not crazy, but it is weird.
Well that's the beauty part, it isn't quite the staged "set up" that you are imagining. My one friend is still a novice shooter so he actually will be sort of a safety coach for him. And in order to do that job effectively I will have to review all the safety rules so that they are current in his mind.
And my other friend will be in on it to the extent that he will know it's been awhile since our friend has been shooting so we are all going to be really watching the safe gun handling.
I'm not going to be going up to anyone and giving them a character to play. I probably didn't explain that part well enough. More correctly everyone is going to be assigned a task, and those tasks will involve watching your shooting buddy to make sure there is safe gun handling all around.
So it's a tad manipulative. Who gives a shit if it gets him where he needs to be?
And that is the goal.
I'm trying to get him to actually be a "safe shooter." And if I get him there by having him help me make sure our other friend is observing all the safety rules and at the same time having that friend do the same, that is what I'm gonna do.
And if the worst thing I do is "trick" somebody into being mindful of safe gun handling and "learning by teaching" then that is fine with me. I've learned some very useful things that way.
Your friend negligently shot someone else. At what point would having remedial gun safety practice NOT be in order? If your buddy's ego is that big & fragile maybe putting a gun in his hand isn't the greatest idea.
Take the lead and and 30 mins of your time to get him up to speed or stay out of it altogether but he'll probably still get the heater somewhere else and still not get the knowledge that he needs if you do.
It isn't a matter of ego, if it was I probably wouldn't be friends with him. It's more a matter of guns aren't a priority. I see the same "good enough" mentality from LOTS of hunters. They do shit that makes me not want to be anywhere around them with guns, but they don't do it enough to think they need any additional help.
It's going to come down to me doing a little mentoring as several people have already realized. If I adopt a teacher / student posture he is going to learn very little and remember even less. If I enlist him as an assistant I make him responsible for making sure a friend of ours is safe and he will take that far more seriously and will be far more likely to retain the particulars of gun safety.
The three of us will be at the range, all watching and helping each other, more or less on an equal footing. This way we can ALL go back to STEP ONE: Safe Gun Handling and The Four Rules.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue and debate. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something and was interested in any ideas that might be better.
Suwannee Tim
08-06-12, 19:15
Shooting someone is the hard way to learn to take gun safety seriously. It is however an effective lesson. Your friend is one damned lucky guy. I knew two people who accidentally killed with firearms. One, a college buddy killed his father turkey hunting. The guilt destroyed him and the grief destroyed his mother. They both drank themselves to death. Three lives lost to a stupid lack of safety discipline. My other buddy did a lot better. The man he killed was not well liked, not by his family or anyone else, no one was particularly grieved to see him go and he was very well insured. My buddy was well insured too, so well that the incident cost him not one penny nor did he have to spend even one night in jail. Nevertheless it was very difficult on him and haunts him to this day. As it should. Unless your buddy is stupid he should "get it" now and for all time. All he needs in the training. Tell him Suwannee Tim sez: "You will make mistakes. Many times there will be no range officer, safety instructor or shooting buddy there to correct you. You need to learn from every mistake. You need to be your harshest critic. You need to take the necessary time and care to make sure that your mistakes are minor. There is simply no room for major mistakes when handling firearms."
CarlosDJackal
08-06-12, 20:20
...I know the standard line is to send him to a gun safety class but that won't happen. I already know the "I don't have the time, money, etc." reasons he will have for not doing it...
This seems like a very red flag. I would figue out a way to avoid playing any kind of role in this individual's quest to own a firearm. It sure sounds like his attitude has not changed for the better and all you need is for him to have another ND and hurt or kill someone else. JM2CW.
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