View Full Version : upgrade help
Ok I am new to the AR world, and I have a few questions. I recently purchased a Stag Arms Model 2, and have several questions. I recognize through a lot of post that Stag is not a Colt, BCM or LMT. I am in law enforcement however my department does not purchase patrol riffles, however I am trying to change this. The primary reason I own the AR is because I want one. It is my range gun and “fun gun”. The secondary reason is defense first at home and possibly on the street. The primary reason I bought a Stag was the price (I have a friend who is a dealer and I paid a little over $700 before tax and title).
I would like to get into some tactical competitions, and possibly use this as a duty weapon once approved. While I’m not going into battle with this weapon every day, on duty, I may. The tacticool features are not the important feature for me, solid bullet proof performance is.
Here are my question:
1. What upgrades can/should I make to make this weapon a more reliable solid performer. Please remember just buy a BCM (or favorite maker of choice) is not an option, any upgrades will be done on my budget and my timeframe.
2. What Parts on the Model 2 are mil-spec?
Any education will be greatly appreciated.
Tk390
Here is a good palce to start out. Read up and you are sure to come out with some good info.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
Ill make the post most people are or will be thinking.
Sell it and get your $700 out of it(or possibly more) and add $250 to that $700 and get a Colt 6920. Then you have to change nothing short of adding a sling and some type of an optic.
To bring the Stag up to spec would IMO probably require more than the $250 price difference and you still wouldnt have as good of a gun.
Ill make the post most people are or will be thinking.
Sell it and get your $700 out of it(or possibly more) and add $250 to that $700 and get a Colt 6920. Then you have to change nothing short of adding a sling and some type of an optic.
To bring the Stag up to spec would IMO probably require more than the $250 price difference and you still wouldnt have as good of a gun.
I second this^^^^^ I would not waste the money upgrading the BCG and barrel and still have a rifle of less reputation for quality and dependability. I would sell it and just buy a Colt or BCM especially if you ever plan to trust your life with it at ANY point in the future. Hell, I just got a Colt barrel and upper from a member here for a build and plan to get a BCM BCG, BCM blem lower, Gunfighter CH from Grant to finish it off. My total out of pocket for this build will be a little over $600 and I will have a damn fine fighting rifle to show for it.
Buy your self alot of ammo and practice with your stag.maybe put a nice optic on it? I don't care for the regular grip that stock ar's come with so I would change that. Maybe ad a quad rail later depending on what accessories you want or need.
If you don't want to sell it for a higher quality gun then I'd consider at the very least:
- Sell the BCG and replace it with a BCM BCG. This will end up costing you maybe $30-$40 after selling yours. If your BCG is already marked HPT/MPI then I probably wouldn't even bother. CMT (who makes Stag) makes a lot of parts for all manufacturers. They are capable of putting out quality parts, when they WANT to.
- If you don't replace the BCG then make sure the gas keys are properly staked.
- Make sure the castle nut is properly staked.
- Use an H or H2 buffer.
- Use some quality lube like Froglube or Slip2000 and run that bitch wet, always.
- Replace your receiver extension (buffer tube) with a mil-spec one if it's not already. Be aware that you'd likely have to buy a new stock that fits mil-spec tubes.
- Replace your charging handle with the BCM Gunfighter
Just sell the parts you don't want on TOS and use that money towards the replacement. You won't end up spending much -- I promise! :D
ok I read "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!" and it seems to my uneducated eyes that #1,2, and 5 can be resolved by purchasing a quality BCG (BCM for example @$130) and a H Buffer is @$30 and properly staking the end plate is probably a nominal cost. Please help me understand how $870 (original cost $710 + BCG and H buffer $160$) is not equal to a Colt at $950. What is in the Colt that makes it better other than the name? Im not trying to be argumentative I just want to know,without brand bias, what upgrades should I look at.
What is in the Colt that makes it better other than the name? Im not trying to be argumentative I just want to know,without brand bias, what upgrades should I look at.
better barrel to start with. The Stag is a 1/9 twist and is 4140 steel that may or may not be MPI/HP tested. The Colt is a 1/7 twist and is 4150 steel as well as being MPI and HP tested. A new barrel will run you 250-300+ for a good quality 4150 1/7 twist that is fully tested.
The colt internals(trigger, springs, hammer, disconnector, etc...) are of WAY better quality than Stag internals. So if you also wanted to swap internals and use say a parts kit from G&R or Daniel Defense you are looking at another $75-100.
I dont think there is anything wrong with the Stag lower and upper receiver, but pretty much everything else is lower quality.
If you don't want to sell it for a higher quality gun then I'd consider at the very least:
- Sell the BCG and replace it with a BCM BCG. This will end up costing you maybe $30-$40 after selling yours. If your BCG is already marked HPT/MPI then I probably wouldn't even bother. CMT (who makes Stag) makes a lot of parts for all manufacturers. They are capable of putting out quality parts, when they WANT to.
- If you don't replace the BCG then make sure the gas keys are properly staked.
- Make sure the castle nut is properly staked.
- Use an H or H2 buffer.
- Use some quality lube like Froglube or Slip2000 and run that bitch wet, always.
- Replace your receiver extension (buffer tube) with a mil-spec one if it's not already. Be aware that you'd likely have to buy a new stock that fits mil-spec tubes.
- Replace your charging handle with the BCM Gunfighter
Just sell the parts you don't want on TOS and use that money towards the replacement. You won't end up spending much -- I promise! :D
HK
Thank you for this valuable input. How do I know if my buffer tube is milspec? I had already looked at the BCM BCG, the BCM gunfighter an ambi-safety and a WC over sized bolt release. is there anything else I should consider?
better barrel to start with. The Stag is a 1/9 twist and is 4140 steel that may or may not be MPI/HP tested. The Colt is a 1/7 twist and is 4150 steel as well as being MPI and HP tested. A new barrel will run you 250-300+ for a good quality 4150 1/7 twist that is fully tested.
The colt internals(trigger, springs, hammer, disconnector, etc...) are of WAY better quality than Stag internals. So if you also wanted to swap internals and use say a parts kit from G&R or Daniel Defense you are looking at another $75-100.
I dont think there is anything wrong with the Stag lower and upper receiver, but pretty much everything else is lower quality.
Ok now Im getting a better idea of what I am looking at, thank you
A Stag Arms rifle should have the castle nut staked from the factory. If you have the "plus" package you should have the other things people want you to sell your rifle to get. http://www.stagarms.com/information.php?info_id=13 Hell if I could get a Stag with the "plus" package ,should be standard, for $800 It would be my first choice.
A Stag Arms rifle should have the castle nut staked from the factory. If you have the "plus" package you should have the other things people want you to sell your rifle to get. http://www.stagarms.com/information.php?info_id=13 Hell if I could get a Stag with the "plus" package ,should be standard, for $800 It would be my first choice.
Even a Stag "plus" package is not on the same level as a BCM, Colt, or DD.
Sure, they might be giving the more desirable specs but the fact is that the LPK is still very likely to be of lower quality, the barrel will still be lower quality (albeit 1/7 twist), and obviously their QC isn't going to touch any of the top players. I'd take a Spikes or PSA over a Stag "plus" any day of the week.
HK
Thank you for this valuable input. How do I know if my buffer tube is milspec? I had already looked at the BCM BCG, the BCM gunfighter an ambi-safety and a WC over sized bolt release. is there anything else I should consider?
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5136/tubespecs.jpg
The image above explains how you can tell the difference.
A mil-spec receiver extension is typically going to be stronger than a commercial spec, also. You can probably buy cheap ones on Ebay that claim to be mil-spec but you should avoid those and only go with a known brand.
Even a Stag "plus" package is not on the same level as a BCM, Colt, or DD.
Sure, they might be giving the more desirable specs but the fact is that the LPK is still very likely to be of lower quality, the barrel will still be lower quality (albeit 1/7 twist), and obviously their QC isn't going to touch any of the top players. I'd take a Spikes or PSA over a Stag "plus" any day of the week.
That is totally your opinion. Why is the LPK lesser? You couldn't tell the difference in the barrels to save your life. Sometimes the hate for all things not BCM, Colt or DD is ridiculous. I want you to tell me what EXACTLY is wrong with the Stag "plus" except for the fact that it isn't standard. Don't forget the "plus" rifle is $250.00 less than a colt 69whatever plenty of loot to upgrade the perfectly fine LPK that it comes with. Also the Stag comes with a MI flip up rear sight.
All Stags have mil-spec receiver extensions
polymorpheous
08-08-12, 17:04
Buy a bolt upgrade kit from BCM.
Keep a spare quality bolt on hand.
H buffer at the very least, maybe more since Stags are notoriously over gassed.
Have the chamber check to see if it is a true 5.56 NATO chamber.
Check the carrier key and lower receiver end plate for proper staking.
Run it hard with a case or more of ammo.
Preferably in a carbine class.
This will bring out most problems so you can address them.
Should be good to go after that.
Ok I am new to the AR world, and I have a few questions. I recently purchased a Stag Arms Model 2, and have several questions. I recognize through a lot of post that Stag is not a Colt, BCM or LMT. I am in law enforcement however my department does not purchase patrol riffles, however I am trying to change this. The primary reason I own the AR is because I want one. It is my range gun and “fun gun”. The secondary reason is defense first at home and possibly on the street. The primary reason I bought a Stag was the price (I have a friend who is a dealer and I paid a little over $700 before tax and title).
I would like to get into some tactical competitions, and possibly use this as a duty weapon once approved. While I’m not going into battle with this weapon every day, on duty, I may. The tacticool features are not the important feature for me, solid bullet proof performance is.
Here are my question:
1. What upgrades can/should I make to make this weapon a more reliable solid performer. Please remember just buy a BCM (or favorite maker of choice) is not an option, any upgrades will be done on my budget and my timeframe.
2. What Parts on the Model 2 are mil-spec?
Any education will be greatly appreciated.
Tk390
Check the gas key staking, fix if needed and then go shoot the damn thing!
I thought Stag was made by CMT.
The same CMT that makes parts for Colt and Noveske?
There's nothing wrong with that carbine. I'm a Colt fanboy but I would NOT consider that Stag a 2nd tier gun to a Colt 6920. The quality is there, it's just spec'd for 55 grain ammo.
The 1/9 twist barrel will probably be better for 55 grain ammo, so stick with that. You may want an H or H2 buffer if you shoot 5.56.
Here's the specs from Stag:
Stag Arms standard carbines (Model 1, 2, 2T, 3, 8 and their left-handed equivalents) feature:
- Carpenter 158 shot peened Bolt with black extractor spring
- Shrouded full circle AR15 bolt carrier with side staked carrier key
- 5.56 NATO chambered barrel with chrome lining, 1/9 twist, double lead lapped, and parkerized under the front sight base
- M4 feed ramps
- F marked front sight base with taper pins
- Double heatshield handguards
- Mil-Spec size 7000 series aluminum receiver extension with staked receiver nut (also known as castle nut)
- One 30rd USGI Magazine*
Throw in a better BCG with a HPT/MPI bolt and H buffer, make sure the castle nut is staked good and that's it. The 4140 barrel and 1/9 twist may not be the best but you'll probably never ever shoot it to the limit where you would ever know the difference.
Throw in a better BCG with a HPT/MPI bolt and H buffer, make sure the castle nut is staked good and that's it. The 4140 barrel and 1/9 twist may not be the best but you'll probably never ever shoot it to the limit where you would ever know the difference.
The BCG is fine. It has a full-circle semi-auto carrier, not the neutered Colt type. CMT supplies Colt with bolts, what more do you need ?
The BCG is fine. It has a full-circle semi-auto carrier, not the neutered Colt type. CMT supplies Colt with bolts, what more do you need ?
Sounds good then.
Check the gas key staking, fix if needed and then go shoot the damn thing!
Exactly!!!
Slvr Surfr
08-08-12, 20:48
Op,
From one cop to another, what is your life worth? Better yet, your partners?
If you have to question the quality of your equipment then it's time to get something that you won't have to wonder about.
The Colt is a fantastic rifle and right now they are cheaper then ever. Sell your gun and buy one (Colt, BCM, DD). You won't look back. If the dept. begins outfitting the guys on patrol with issued guns, then you can always get your money back on a high quality gun.
JMHO.
I'll echo the sentiment of Polymorpheus.
Spend all that money on ammo and a training fund. Shoot the weapon! Shoot the piss out of it. Get SME training if you can....you are taking on a responsibility to be professionally deady with an AR if you are carrying one daily in your cruiser. If the Stag doesnt hold up through 1 or 2 classes you can deal with the issues then. You need experience the most. You can get your Dept.to issue Colts hopefully, and use them daily and for further training.....but get the feel for your weapon before anything else.
Stay safe TK :D
polymorpheous
08-08-12, 23:59
The BCG is fine. It has a full-circle semi-auto carrier, not the neutered Colt type. CMT supplies Colt with bolts, what more do you need ?
No they do not.
Stop spreading misinformation on this board.
No they do not.
Stop spreading misinformation on this board.
You're right.
Better to safe than sorry. He should buy a bolt from a more reputable manufacturer.
CMT is likely a fly by night company that produces hobby grade shit.
polymorpheous
08-09-12, 07:35
You're right.
Better to safe than sorry. He should buy a bolt from a more reputable manufacturer.
CMT is likely a fly by night company that produces hobby grade shit.
Putting words into my mouth does not further your argument.
In fact, let me call you out on your misinformation.
My statement was very clear.
I said CMT does not make bolts for Colt.
End of statement.
Here is a recent thread.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=110108
As a matter a fact, here is a batch of bolt waiting to get machined.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/behind-the-scenes-at-colt/10.jpg
Colts are made in house.
Period.
Op,
From one cop to another, what is your life worth? Better yet, your partners?
If you have to question the quality of your equipment then it's time to get something that you won't have to wonder about.
The Colt is a fantastic rifle and right now they are cheaper then ever. Sell your gun and buy one (Colt, BCM, DD). You won't look back. If the dept. begins outfitting the guys on patrol with issued guns, then you can always get your money back on a high quality gun.
JMHO.
I still don't see why anyone is questioning Stags quality.
polymorpheous
08-09-12, 09:59
I still don't see why anyone is questioning Stags quality.
Notorious for tight chambers and being over gassed.
Use the search function.
Notorious for tight chambers and being over gassed.
Use the search function.
That can and has been said about anyone who uses a 1:9 twist barrel. Stag makes a damn fine rifle and with the "plus" package you have no nits to pick.
Failure2Stop
08-09-12, 10:12
I still don't see why anyone is questioning Stags quality.
I don't think anyone is questioning it, it's pretty well documented, and it does not meet or exceed the quality that can be found elsewhere.
Does that mean that a CMT carbine will self destruct and cause erectile dysfunction? No. And really, for most AR owners, it will be just fine for their use, as most will shoot maybe 200 rounds per year under nice conditions.
It also doesn't mean that every CMT carbine will fail at x number of rounds, or the the higher quality carbines will be guaranteed to all last to y rounds, simply that we have seen more CMT/Stag carbines (along with BM, RRA, DPMS, etc) fail due to manufacturing/assembly decisions.
If you have done the research and decided to go with whatever, rock on.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
polymorpheous
08-09-12, 10:18
That can and has been said about anyone who uses a 1:9 twist barrel. Stag makes a damn fine rifle and with the "plus" package you have no nits to pick.
At a premium over a known quality carbine such as a 6920?
At a premium over a known quality carbine such as a 6920?
No. Did you read any of the thread? At the price point we were talking The Stag is the better buy. I'm looking at your little chart and comparing the Stag with the 69wtf. If I get the Stag and $250.00 I win. I'll ask you this "Is there a price at which you would take the Stag over the Colt?"
Looks like this thread is done. Nothing else good can come of this.
polymorpheous
08-09-12, 10:46
The maturity level on this site has plummeted as of late.
I'm sorry to any new members looking to come here learn.
ridgerunner70
08-09-12, 11:18
Before I got to join this site I bought a DPMS for $650. Man I got a good deal on that one, I even got a box of ammo with it. Right off the bat brass was hitting my upper and stove piping. Joined this site started doing research and some knowledgeable gentlemen helped me alone the way. Over gassed and the POS barrel needed reamed, FSP was cheap and canted to 12:30, Charging handle was cheap and flimsy.and I could go on. I bought a DDM4v1 and never looked back. Take these guys advice, I would have save some money and some headaches if I would have had these guys advice from the beginning.
Before I got to join this site I bought a DPMS for $650. Man I got a good deal on that one, I even got a box of ammo with it. Right off the bat brass was hitting my upper and stove piping. Joined this site started doing research and some knowledgeable gentlemen helped me alone the way. Over gassed and the POS barrel needed reamed, FSP was cheap and canted to 12:30, Charging handle was cheap and flimsy.and I could go on. I bought a DDM4v1 and never looked back. Take these guys advice, I would have save some money and some headaches if I would have had these guys advice from the beginning.
Huge difference between what your saying and what I'm saying.
The Stag is comparable to the Colt whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
No. Did you read any of the thread? At the price point we were talking The Stag is the better buy. I'm looking at your little chart and comparing the Stag with the 69wtf. If I get the Stag and $250.00 I win. I'll ask you this "Is there a price at which you would take the Stag over the Colt?"
Regardless of a "Plus" package the Stag is still inferior. You can get a Colt 6920 for $950, which is roughly what a Stag "Plus" will cost. Even if they are putting the desired specs out for everybody to see and fall victim to, like you clearly have, they are still going to cut any corners possible.
Just because you own a Stag does not make it "just as good as..." so please stop spreading this misinformation that you have been throughout this ENTIRE thread!!
Please take your immature rhetoric back to TOS, or at the very least anywhere but here.
RogerinTPA
08-09-12, 11:32
This thread is full of fail from people who recently joined and don't read any info here to educate themselves, and thus cling to "bubba" info they "heard" about or drew an illogical conclusion from "hearsay" research.
ridgerunner70
08-09-12, 11:40
Huge difference between what your saying and what I'm saying.
The Stag is comparable to the Colt whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
My point of my post was "there are very knowledgeable people on here that does this for a living everyday, don't take it for granted"
Regardless of a "Plus" package the Stag is still inferior. You can get a Colt 6920 for $950, which is roughly what a Stag "Plus" will cost. Even if they are putting the desired specs out for everybody to see and fall victim to, like you clearly have, they are still going to cut any corners possible.
Just because you own a Stag does not make it "just as good as..." so please stop spreading this misinformation that you have been throughout this ENTIRE thread!!
Please take your immature rhetoric back to TOS, or at the very least anywhere but here.
Now I know you didn't read anything. I've never been a member of TOS, and I've never owned a stag. What is wrong with you, you call me immature and invite me to leave the site? Why? I've spread NO misinformation. What are your thoughts on the Stag rifle in question/ What makes it inferior EXACTLY? It's not a DD or Colt doesn't count.
Stag is no where near the near the quality, reliability or standard of a Colt. Regardless of what their ads may be telling you with subliminal messages. There is a reason why Stag costs what it costs and why a Colt costs what it does.
People come and ask for assistance and opinions and get them. If you don't want to follow the advice or listen to those who know then by all means buy whatever makes you feel good.
Huge difference between what your saying and what I'm saying.
The Stag is comparable to the Colt whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
Now I know you didn't read anything. I've never been a member of TOS, and I've never owned a stag. What is wrong with you, you call me immature and invite me to leave the site? Why? I've spread NO misinformation. What are your thoughts on the Stag rifle in question/ What makes it inferior EXACTLY? It's not a DD or Colt doesn't count.
If you like Stag; great. If that's what you want to shoot, rock on with it. It does seem odd to me though that you're defending a product you don't actually shoot. I don't know if I would even defend a product I shoot this vehemently. If it worked for me, that's what I would say and move on from there. I'd say if it works for you, cool, but you don't shoot one; so that doesn't apply here. So I'm wondering; what's the difference if others agree with you or not?
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