View Full Version : *Sigh* Noveske 10.5" questions...
Yes, Noveske built me a wonderful 12.5" gun. Just like they built me a wonderful 14.5" gun. Just like I am now interested in a wonderful 10.5' upper.
I had a few questions, though...
Does Noveske "Match" uppers and lowers? I know VLTOR makes their uppers, and "they" make their lowers, but do they hand-pick them or something? I figure the answer is "no", but I just wanted to seek clarification.
Also, I have heard that Noveske uppers with 10.5" barrels run great. Run just fine. Don't need any funky "blue spring" or "9mm buffer" or whatever. They run with Wolf. Run with 5.56. Run just as well as a 14.5" upper.
Is this everyone's experience, as well? I hear over and over that "A few years ago, the 10.5" got sorted out". Well...how? I mean, I would think that port-size would get "sorted out" before it ever came to market. It couldn't be that hard. What advancement did Noveske make over other companies, etc. that allows their 10.5's to run so well, or is it just that Noveske does it CORRECTLY and with less tolerance, so that they simply have less/no "out of spec" stuff choking on either end of the spectrum?
Also, how would a 10.5" upper "feel" compared to my 12.5" upper? Will it run "choppier" or "rougher", or will it feel identical with my eyes closed except for balance/weight distribution?
Also, yes, I know that my blast-baffle will hate me on my FA556-212, but it won't kill it ASAP, will it? I plan on running a flash-hider because I have shot a braked SBR before and I HATED IT!!! I have not shot one with a FH before. I suspect concussion is still a PITA, but is it one of those "It hurts like hell no-matter what, so get the brake", or is it "Yeah, the FH is a lot nicer, even though it's still a pain".
Now...my NFA question...
I download a form, fill in information, and mail it to the ATF. I do not need a response. I do not need permission. I tell THEM. Is that correct? What happens when I move? I am fuzzy on this whole AR with different length uppers in SBR category thing.
I also noted that all of the Noveske 10.5" rifles had the "Pig" on them. Is this required (or a suppressor) for completely reliable cycling using regular .223 or cheap ammo like Wolf, with the 10.5" barrel, or is it just the "Default" that they show it with because it's popular?
I've had a 10.5 for a couple of years now, no issues with any type of ammo, get it you won't be disappointed.
Don't need the pig, I've had a battle comp, and a KAC 3t no issues, besides being a little on the loud side.
doriwoogie
08-09-12, 01:31
The more knowledgeable folks will come along soon, but just my 2 cents (low speed civilian, sample size of 1)...
I have 10.5 Switchblock and it runs great, haven't had to play with springs or buffers. Not sure if you were looking at the Switchblock ones or not though. The "Pig" is not necessary imo, as it just redirects the blast forward (did a great job of preventing my teeth from shaking loose when I had a 7.5"). And your blast baffle will thank you if you use a brake. :D
The more knowledgeable folks will come along soon, but just my 2 cents (low speed civilian, sample size of 1)...
I have 10.5 Switchblock and it runs great, haven't had to play with springs or buffers. Not sure if you were looking at the Switchblock ones or not though. The "Pig" is not necessary imo, as it just redirects the blast forward (did a great job of preventing my teeth from shaking loose when I had a 7.5"). And your blast baffle will thank you if you use a brake. :D
I talked at length with Garin Lee about the blast-baffle on 10.5" guns, and as long as I don't run it like I'm practicing my own little battle of Wanat, the suppressor should still provide good signature reduction for well past the normal barrel life of an M4. I have 2 FA556-212's, though. One for shooting, one for looking at.
I was indeed looking at a switch-block version. I would need the VIS/MUR to clear the Surefire suppressor properly, though, as the Noveske rail doesn't do so hot for the SF product because of the little nub on the top of the rail.
My 11.5" isn't THAT bad with a brake. Other shooters on the line have never made comment's either.
(only my 7mag with a brake has received the "holy crap" comments)
So if you're going to shoot suppressed, I'd opt for the brake and worry less about the blast baffle by going that route.
My 11.5" isn't THAT bad with a brake. Other shooters on the line have never made comment's either.
(only my 7mag with a brake has received the "holy crap" comments)
So if you're going to shoot suppressed, I'd opt for the brake and worry less about the blast baffle by going that route.
Does the brake function any at all inside the suppressor? Most braked rifles I have seen shot have a lot of barrel whip because of the brake. I guess it doesn't matter, but less is always better when it comes to violent motions with the barrel.
That being said, the Surefire held up OK during the Mk18 testing with SOCOM, so it can't be that big of an issue with the blast baffle, can it?
A few year ago you could buy matching stripped uppers and lowers from Noveske directly. I don't know of they still do that.
As for a 10.5" gun, I've seen and read about enough issues that when I built my shorty I went with the tried and true 11.5". There are 10.5" guns that run fine but I personally wouldn't trust myself or anyone other than Noveske, DD, or maybe one or two other companies to build one.
A few year ago you could buy matching stripped uppers and lowers from Noveske directly. I don't know of they still do that.
As for a 10.5" gun, I've seen and read about enough issues that when I built my shorty I went with the tried and true 11.5". There are 10.5" guns that run fine but I personally wouldn't trust myself or anyone other than Noveske, DD, or maybe one or two other companies to build one.
What is so tough about building one? You drill the gas port to the correct diameter and screw the parts together, so to speak, yes? Is it that only Noveske, DD, and a few others know how big to make the hole? Why is that? I guess I am asking...is the Noveske as reliable as their 12.5" setup like they claim, and if so, why aren't other 10.5" guns as reliable? The MK18 is reliable, no? It's a 10.3".
saddlerocker
08-09-12, 10:34
Yes, Noveske built me a wonderful 12.5" gun. Just like they built me a wonderful 14.5" gun. Just like I am now interested in a wonderful 10.5' upper.
I had a few questions, though...
Does Noveske "Match" uppers and lowers? I know VLTOR makes their uppers, and "they" make their lowers, but do they hand-pick them or something? I figure the answer is "no", but I just wanted to seek clarification.
Also, I have heard that Noveske uppers with 10.5" barrels run great. Run just fine. Don't need any funky "blue spring" or "9mm buffer" or whatever. They run with Wolf. Run with 5.56. Run just as well as a 14.5" upper.
Is this everyone's experience, as well? I hear over and over that "A few years ago, the 10.5" got sorted out". Well...how? I mean, I would think that port-size would get "sorted out" before it ever came to market. It couldn't be that hard. What advancement did Noveske make over other companies, etc. that allows their 10.5's to run so well, or is it just that Noveske does it CORRECTLY and with less tolerance, so that they simply have less/no "out of spec" stuff choking on either end of the spectrum?
Also, how would a 10.5" upper "feel" compared to my 12.5" upper? Will it run "choppier" or "rougher", or will it feel identical with my eyes closed except for balance/weight distribution?
Also, yes, I know that my blast-baffle will hate me on my FA556-212, but it won't kill it ASAP, will it? I plan on running a flash-hider because I have shot a braked SBR before and I HATED IT!!! I have not shot one with a FH before. I suspect concussion is still a PITA, but is it one of those "It hurts like hell no-matter what, so get the brake", or is it "Yeah, the FH is a lot nicer, even though it's still a pain".
Now...my NFA question...
I download a form, fill in information, and mail it to the ATF. I do not need a response. I do not need permission. I tell THEM. Is that correct? What happens when I move? I am fuzzy on this whole AR with different length uppers in SBR category thing.
NO,
You do need a response (Your tax stamp) before you can posses the upper/barrel for your SBR.
Just like when you bought your suppressor you had to wait for the stamp before you could take it home.
There is a form to fill out and send to the ATF if your moving to another state.
You can have different length uppers for your registered lower, as long as you can transform it back to the specs listed on the forms.
Some people think this means you need to keep a 10.5" (in your case) upper/barrel at all times.
Others think you dont need to posses that original barrel length at all times.
NO,
You do need a response (Your tax stamp) before you can posses the upper/barrel for your SBR.
Just like when you bought your suppressor you had to wait for the stamp before you could take it home.
There is a form to fill out and send to the ATF if your moving to another state.
You can have different length uppers for your registered lower, as long as you can transform it back to the specs listed on the forms.
Some people think this means you need to keep a 10.5" (in your case) upper/barrel at all times.
Others think you dont need to posses that original barrel length at all times.
I just got off the phone with the ATF "specialist" I was transferred to:
Can have multiple uppers for the SBR'ed lower.
Must send in a form, but don't need confirmation/permission (although it will be provided), can attach different upper(s) to SBR'ed lower as soon as letter is mailed.
The letter must contain: Caliber, barrel length, OAL, etc. just like the Form 4 for each upper I plan to run on the SBR'ed lower.
*I think you thought I meant can I put a <16.1" upper on a non SBR'ed lower. I meant can I change uppers on an already SBR'ed lower. I was not clear, and can see how it read.
Don't need any funky "blue spring" or "9mm buffer" or whatever. They run with Wolf. Run with 5.56. Run just as well as a 14.5" upper.
Standard action spring and H2 buffer.
The 9mm "buffer" is actually more of just a weight for the blowback operation, it is not a good buffer and I would not use one on a 5.56. It is not heavier than the H3, but cheaper.
I hear over and over that "A few years ago, the 10.5" got sorted out". Well...how?
Increased extractor tension, heavy buffers. The same problems existed with a 14.5" at that time, the shorter barrel just magnified them.
doriwoogie
08-09-12, 12:29
I talked at length with Garin Lee about the blast-baffle on 10.5" guns, and as long as I don't run it like I'm practicing my own little battle of Wanat, the suppressor should still provide good signature reduction for well past the normal barrel life of an M4. I have 2 FA556-212's, though. One for shooting, one for looking at.
I was indeed looking at a switch-block version. I would need the VIS/MUR to clear the Surefire suppressor properly, though, as the Noveske rail doesn't do so hot for the SF product because of the little nub on the top of the rail.
My understanding (from silencertalk forums and talking to AAC in my case) concurs with what you stated above. I just go with the brake as I figure if I can save wear and tear on the suppressor with a brake of some sorts, why not? Although you do have the luxury of having a spare too! :p
I just got off the phone with the ATF "specialist" I was transferred to:
Can have multiple uppers for the SBR'ed lower.
Must send in a form, but don't need confirmation/permission (although it will be provided), can attach different upper(s) to SBR'ed lower as soon as letter is mailed.The letter must contain: Caliber, barrel length, OAL, etc. just like the Form 4 for each upper I plan to run on the SBR'ed lower.
*I think you thought I meant can I put a <16.1" upper on a non SBR'ed lower. I meant can I change uppers on an already SBR'ed lower. I was not clear, and can see how it read.
just making sure i'm reading this right, the "specialist" told you that you could attach an SBR upper to the lower as soon as you send in your paperwork rather than waiting the 5-7 months to recieve your form 1 back?
if that IS what you are saying I would call again to verify. because unless I've been under a rock upper and lower cannot ever attach until you get your stamped form 1 back.
because unless I've been under a rock upper and lower cannot ever attach until you get your stamped form 1 back.
Sounds like he already has a SBRed lower, since he has a 12.5" already. He doesn't need to re-register it on a Form 1.
decodeddiesel
08-09-12, 16:29
just making sure i'm reading this right, the "specialist" told you that you could attach an SBR upper to the lower as soon as you send in your paperwork rather than waiting the 5-7 months to recieve your form 1 back?
if that IS what you are saying I would call again to verify. because unless I've been under a rock upper and lower cannot ever attach until you get your stamped form 1 back.
You need to read more carefully. He stated that you can change uppers on an already SBR'd lower as soon as you send the letter to the ATF advising them you are going to do so. How in the world did you misread that so grossly that you though he was stating that you could manufacture an SBR without an approved Form 1!?! :confused:
davidjinks
08-09-12, 16:33
OP
A little clarification if you would please:
Are you asking in regards to a permanent change in length for your SBR? I.E. 12.5" to 10.5" permanently.
I was under the impression that you could attach any length upper to a SBR'ed lower and use it in whatever length configuration you wanted without submitting any new forms. The only time you submit a change in length is if it is permanent.
Anyone who is more versed on this I would appreciate clarification. I just went through this myself and was informed only if it's a perm change in barrel length.
The ATF requests you notify them of a permanent change to an NFA weapon. You can use different length and caliber uppers without needing any paperwork.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html
You need to read more carefully. He stated that you can change uppers on an already SBR'd lower as soon as you send the letter to the ATF advising them you are going to do so. How in the world did you misread that so grossly that you though he was stating that you could manufacture an SBR without an approved Form 1!?! :confused:
I didn't see where he was modifying an existing sbr therefore didn't know if he was talking about shortening an existing registured SBR or building another complete setup
davidjinks
08-09-12, 18:26
Thank you Todd. I know I read it from an ATF link after being informed by my examiner.
Much appreciated!
The ATF requests you notify them of a permanent change to an NFA weapon. You can use different length and caliber uppers without needing any paperwork.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html
Yes, sbr already in existance at the time of upper swapping.
I know noveske fits complete rifles, but has anyone had experience with random upper swaps using the vltor upper on a gen two lower? Will it still fit well, or is it likely to resemble the colts I have for rattle?
I should be able I tell ya that in about 30-45 more days :)
I'm hoping it will be good and snug like a complete rifle though!
You are correct. This is a good reason why people should not talk to some ATF expert and then post it on the net. The answers may not always be the same and it will create more confusion with what is already known and in print.
OP
A little clarification if you would please:
Are you asking in regards to a permanent change in length for your SBR? I.E. 12.5" to 10.5" permanently.
I was under the impression that you could attach any length upper to a SBR'ed lower and use it in whatever length configuration you wanted without submitting any new forms. The only time you submit a change in length is if it is permanent.
Anyone who is more versed on this I would appreciate clarification. I just went through this myself and was informed only if it's a perm change in barrel length.
You are wasting time worrying about nothing. Go shoot or do something. Don't worry about a little play.
Yes, sbr already in existance at the time of upper swapping.
I know noveske fits complete rifles, but has anyone had experience with random upper swaps using the vltor upper on a gen two lower? Will it still fit well, or is it likely to resemble the colts I have for rattle?
You are wasting time worrying about nothing. Go shoot or do something. Don't worry about a little play.
I understand. I just read a few threads about how some lowers/uppers fit, and some physically would not. I'm betting with the new Gen 2 receivers and Vltor making the uppers, though, that I don't have anything to worry about, and if I do, I believe Noveske uses different sized take-down pins to shore things up. I am betting that those could be purchased if I asked really nicely.
I'm with you, though, I think it's going to drop right on and be a non-issue, because no company that sells both uppers and lowers separately has time to dick around with customers constantly complaining about uppers not fitting. It's probably similar to the "AAC mount and can shoots loose" deal. It happened "on the internet" to a few people, and that's out of thousands.
Still, I asked. :(
You are correct. This is a good reason why people should not talk to some ATF expert and then post it on the net. The answers may not always be the same and it will create more confusion with what is already known and in print.
...and this is what really irritates the hell out of me. These are laws that can really piss in your cheerio's, and yet I don't even know what they are, how they are enforced, etc. because I get a different story every time I call the ATF, every time I speak to a Class III dealer, every time I read "the internet".
I'm beginning to think that as long as I do my damnedest using common sense to follow the guidelines, properly Form 4 all of my NFA stuff, and don't rob any 7/11's, I am going to do just fine, because it's so subject to interpretation that they can hang you or smile at you depending on which way the wind blows almost.
I have had a 10.5" Noveske rifle with the Vltor upper all from them since February. I have around 800 rounds through it, mostly Wolf. I have had exactly 0 malfunctions, except one issue I traced to needing to rebuild a magazine, which cleared it up right away.
Oh, and yea, a little play between an upper and lower doesn't affect anything. One that's too tight of a fit is much more annoying.
I have the 10.5 CQB 5.56mm W/VIS & Switchblock. I have not shot it yet but I bought it because of the Noveske reputation. If it didn't work they wouldn't sell it. Their upper is a perfect match with my Palmetto State Armory lower.
Just FYI: My Noveske upper and Palmetto lower are tight... no movement at all.
I have two noveske 10.5s. Both have standard non MUR uppers no switch blocks, both supressed and ran on a colt m16a2 full auto. I use an H2 buffer with standard spring, no malfunctions except a string of them, once, when I put a combo of a MIG buffer and "light reloads" through it, not supressed at that time. Changing the buffer back to H2 fixed the problem.
Both fit loose on my A2 lower, but; the noveske/Mur uppers I have fit the same A2 lower snug without play.
I never shoot my 12.5 ss noveske full auto, but, I don't notice any difference between the 10.5 vs 12.5. The 12.5 is 8x scoped so the are not set up the same anyway.
A quick look at my 556212 supressor and standard flash hiders dont show much errosion. I've only had the supressor for 6 wks and have put about 500 rounds through it mostly 2 to 20 round burst full auto.
I have two noveske 10.5s. Both have standard non MUR uppers no switch blocks, both supressed and ran on a colt m16a2 full auto. I use an H2 buffer with standard spring, no malfunctions except a string of them, once, when I put a combo of a MIG buffer and "light reloads" through it, not supressed at that time. Changing the buffer back to H2 fixed the problem.
Both fit loose on my A2 lower, but; the noveske/Mur uppers I have fit the same A2 lower snug without play.
I never shoot my 12.5 ss noveske full auto, but, I don't notice any difference between the 10.5 vs 12.5. The 12.5 is 8x scoped so the are not set up the same anyway.
A quick look at my 556212 supressor and standard flash hiders dont show much errosion. I've only had the supressor for 6 wks and have put about 500 rounds through it mostly 2 to 20 round burst full auto.
A blast baffle pic would be very cool, if you can manage it! All I have seen are abused blast baffles.
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