View Full Version : 147 grain 9x19 loads
Alpha Sierra
01-27-08, 16:54
Why are they not very popular?
Ballistics gel testing I have seen shows them to be great penetrators.
NCPatrolAR
01-27-08, 17:17
WHo knows. I use 147gr Rangers as my carry ammo in all my 9mm pistols.
Alpha Sierra
01-27-08, 19:02
I recently came across these ballistic gel tests (http://www.brassfetcher.com/9mm%20Luger.html) and the two 147 loads they tested all penetrated noticeably more than the usual 124 and 115 grain suspects.
I am a believer that shot placement is king and penetration is queen when it comes to handgun bullet terminal ballistics.
Be sure to pay close attention to the gel calibration numbers on the linked tests, as a lot of them are off...
147 gr remains the most popular load for those west coast agencies continuing to issue 9 mm as their standard duty ammo.
Alpha Sierra
01-28-08, 05:04
Be sure to pay close attention to the gel calibration numbers on the linked tests, as a lot of them are off...
147 gr remains the most popular load for those west coast agencies continuing to issue 9 mm as their standard duty ammo.
1) Thanks for pointing out that some gel calibration numbers are off. It's great to have a SME chiming in on these topics. I need to educate myself a little more on gel testing, since I couldn't spot such inconsistencies.
2) Are the gel tests with incorrect calibration off enough to invalidate their results?
3) Do you agree with the general premise that the 147's penetration is usually higher, and that such is a desirable trait?
Thanks again.
Robb Jensen
01-28-08, 05:08
The few FBI agents who can't qualify with a Glock 22 (.40) and are issued Glock 17 instead carry 147gr Speer Gold Dot, IIRC is also authorized for off duty carry if carrying a 9mm.
Army Chief
01-28-08, 05:44
You don't tend to see a lot of white box/yellow box 147 grain econo-box training loads, but I didn't realize that 147 was unpopular for real-world applications.
When I carried a 9x19 mm, I always carried 147 Gold Dots. The velocity is still quite respectable, and more mass is always better, no?
Chief
For whatever reason I've always preferred the 124 grain loads in 9mm myself. At least for carry use. No real logical reason other than I've always thought of 9mm as "light and fast" and .45 as "slow and heavy". So I use the 124 grain +P Gold Dots in the 9mm and the 230 grain Gold Dots in the .45s.
Army Chief
01-28-08, 06:05
... 230 grain Gold Dots in the .45s.
A-firm -- now you're speaking my language. :)
Chief
Ridgerunner665
01-28-08, 07:01
147 grains just isn't heavy enough to qualify for the "slow and heavy" theory....and it isn't fast enough for the "light and fast" theory either...when I carried a 9mm it was loaded with 124 grain +P rounds. Just my humble opinion.:)
ive always been under the impression if i continue to carry my 9mms, i better stick with light +p+ loads. federal 124 gr hydrashoks
Even when pushed to 1150 feet per second, 147 grain bullets could not be relied on to expand.
Penetration they would have as they tend to act like FMJ.
Hot loaded 124 grain bullets are much more reliable expanders while still gaining that magic 13 inches of penetration.
onmilo,
Your comments above are not accurate; numerous large West Coast LE agencies with thousands of officers continue to successfully use 9mm 147 gr JHP’s because they have demonstrated good terminal performance in hundreds of officer involved shootings…
Bullet weight and velocity are not particularly important in determining the penetration depth and terminal performance characteristics--bullet design, construction, and robust expansion ability are the key parameters. For example, a Barnes XPB 105 gr JHP at 1400+ f/s penetrates to similar depths as a Ranger Talon 147 gr at 975 gr.
A properly designed 147 gr does not penetrate any more deeply than a properly designed 115 gr or 124 gr--for example, the 147 gr used by SDPD averaged 13.1" of penetration and expanded between 0.58 to 0.62" in the nearly 150 officer involved shootings analyzed in the San Diego PD study by Gene Wolberg.
Poorly constructed bullets are likely to fail to expand and will completely penetrate, be they 115, 124, or 147 gr at standard, +P, or +P+ velocities.
This onmilo guy's batting 1000! First the "5 positions vs. 6" and now this.
:D
Why are they not very popular?
Notwithstanding Doctor Roberts's comments about many West Coast agencies (as well as quite a few others), the 147gr does tend to be looked down upon in many circles. It's based on the reputation earned 10-20 years ago, when many 147gr 9mm bullet designs were inadequate to provide reliable expansion, and thus performed little better than FMJs. At the same time, lighter and faster 9x19mm loads were achieving the velocities necessary to make those older-style JHPs perform well.
So what you saw were three types of 9mm-carrying agencies: Agencies that used or switched to lighter, faster 9mm and had better results.
Agencies that used or switched to better-performing 147gr loads and had better results.
Agencies that wanted to stick with a heavy bullet, weren't satisfied with the 9mm incarnation, and switched the .40 S&W or .45 Auto (or 10mm, for a while) guns.
Because so many agencies gave up on the 147gr in favor of another caliber, it has not had the opportunity to redeem itself despite the positive results that many agencies are now seeing with it.
(even knowing all of this, I'm still more confident in higher-velocity middle-weight 9x19mm ammo ... as the saying goes, "A mind all logic is like a knife all blade" :cool:)
Alpha Sierra
01-28-08, 17:54
Thanks all for the education.
The more I think about it the more I think I am going to switch. Probably to 147 Gold Dots or Golden Sabers.
Alpha Sierra
01-28-08, 19:44
I'd suggest taking a hard look at the Winchester load mentioned by the Milfmaster....err....NCPatrolAR. Golden Sabers tend to have some nasty muzzle flash. The flashbulb effect in low light is significant. Winchester's "ranger" series of ammo is designed to be low flash and they consistently rank among the best performing loads in DocGKR's testing.
Copy that, thanks.
Sidewinder6
01-28-08, 20:19
I recently came across these ballistic gel tests (http://www.brassfetcher.com/9mm%20Luger.html) and the two 147 loads they tested all penetrated noticeably more than the usual 124 and 115 grain suspects.
I am a believer that shot placement is king and penetration is queen when it comes to handgun bullet terminal ballistics.
I carry 147 only. I believe some of the critisims have been from FMJ over penetration in some tests. I also feel that some of the newer rounds like HST show great expansion in tests and mitigate some of that concern.
I have fired 115 rounds on the range and frequently wont knock down steel targets even though I think we can all look around and find that 'hot' 115 or 125 rounds have more power. They lack the knock down of 147.
I have fired 115 rounds on the range and frequently wont knock down steel targets even though I think we can all look around and find that 'hot' 115 or 125 rounds have more power. They lack the knock down of 147.
Right. A 147gr bullet will generally have more momentum than a high-velocity 115gr or 124gr out of a 9mm. Momentum is what knocks down steel plates.
FWIW, people aren't steel plates. By that logic, you'd be better off throwing a baseball at an AK-wielding maniac than shooting him with a .45 ...
onmilo,
Your comments above are not accurate; numerous large West Coast LE agencies with thousands of officers continue to successfully use 9mm 147 gr JHP’s because they have demonstrated good terminal performance in hundreds of officer involved shootings…
Bullet weight and velocity are not particularly important in determining the penetration depth and terminal performance characteristics--bullet design, construction, and robust expansion ability are the key parameters. For example, a Barnes XPB 105 gr JHP at 1400+ f/s penetrates to similar depths as a Ranger Talon 147 gr at 975 gr.
A properly designed 147 gr does not penetrate any more deeply than a properly designed 115 gr or 124 gr--for example, the 147 gr used by SDPD averaged 13.1" of penetration and expanded between 0.58 to 0.62" in the nearly 150 officer involved shootings analyzed in the San Diego PD study by Gene Wolberg.
Poorly constructed bullets are likely to fail to expand and will completely penetrate, be they 115, 124, or 147 gr at standard, +P, or +P+ velocities.
Not accurate?
1. OK Industry professional, name the agencies.
2.I won't disagree with this point.
3. I didn't say the bullet did penetrate any more than a 115-124 bullet design, I said they won't reliably expand, a lot of 115 and 124 HP bullets don't either.i.e. 115 Silvertips.
4. I don't disagree with this statement either.
5.Civilian shooters are not always capable of purchasing the exact loadings available to law enforcement.
1. OK Industry professional, name the agencies.
I'm not a M4carbine.net Industry Professional, but can I play?
LAPD. LASD. SDPD. There's also the FBI, which issues a 147gr for 9mm shooters. Last I knew, St. Louis (MO) PD was issuing a 147gr. I'm sure there are many, many others but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.
3. I didn't say the bullet did penetrate any more than a 115-124 bullet design, I said they won't reliably expand, a lot of 115 and 124 HP bullets don't either.i.e. 115 Silvertips.
This was arguably true a decade or two ago. Nowadays, premium JHPs are nothing less than miniature machines and engineered to perform properly (in terms of exp & pen) at the velocities to which they're loaded.
5.Civilian shooters are not always capable of purchasing the exact loadings available to law enforcement.
Can you name one? There is a lot of ammo which is stamped "LE Only" but there's nothing in widespread use that is actually restricted. Online wholesalers and retailers often offer just about every "LE" round known to man, easily for sale to anyone who doesn't live in NJ.
edited to add: As I said previously, I'm not an advocate of the 147gr loads for 9mm; I think the mid-weight high-velocity rounds provide everything the 147gr does plus some of the things they don't ... some people just don't think those extra things are important.
John_Wayne777
01-28-08, 23:00
Not accurate?
1. OK Industry professional, name the agencies.
Dude.....watch the 'tude. That kind of thing will get you shown the door REAL quick.
5.Civilian shooters are not always capable of purchasing the exact loadings available to law enforcement.
Every load recommended in Doc's thread on TF is available through a number of sellers to the best of my knowledge.
the 147 grain 9mm rounds just seem slow to me even though they have proven to perform well. I do prefer 124 gr. loads and IIRC the std. velocity Gold Dots are recommended in the full length barrels and the +p in shorter barrels to get the correct ratio of expansion to penetration. Velocity is not the king it was once thought to be. The IWBA has gone to a lot of trouble to help us all and it is in our best interest to pay attention! Thanks Doc for all your input here.
We compared the 9 mm Gold Dot 124 gr standard pressure to the 124 gr +P out of a Glock 17:
9 mm 124 gr JHP Gold Dot 53618 (lot# F08H33), gel calib= 9.5 cm @ 605 f/s
Bare Gelatin--vel=1144, pen=13.0, RD=0.62, RL=0.32, RW=125.5
4 layers of Denim-- vel=1153, pen=16.6, RD=0.51, RL=0.43, RW=125.2
9 mm 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot 53617 (lot# B03J35), gel calib= 9.0 cm @ 596 f/s
Bare Gelatin--vel=1225, pen=12.0, RD=0.67, RL=0.30, RW=124.2
4 layers of Denim--vel=1239, pen=13.0, RD=0.54, RL=0.39, RW=124.5
Both of these loads offer acceptable performance, although the 124 gr +P has a slight edge.
Doc, thanks for the update
Robb Jensen
01-29-08, 04:36
Not accurate?
1. OK Industry professional, name the agencies.
2.I won't disagree with this point.
3. I didn't say the bullet did penetrate any more than a 115-124 bullet design, I said they won't reliably expand, a lot of 115 and 124 HP bullets don't either.i.e. 115 Silvertips.
4. I don't disagree with this statement either.
5.Civilian shooters are not always capable of purchasing the exact loadings available to law enforcement.
Onmilo,
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you probably haven't read the rules here. So here's one you just violated.
3) Industry Professional – This forum designates a very choice few members with the title of Industry Professional. These are individuals who have extensive first hand experience with the deployment of small arms, execution of proper tactics, or development of the past or current military weapons platforms. Generally speaking, they are well compensated for the information that they provide; and providing information on a free internet forum is a service to us all. Often in an internet forum other posters may not recognize the individual behind certain screen names or have checked their screen name bio. This title is a helpful tool for a viewer to identify such individuals. You are welcome to disagree with their opinion (debate is one of the best ways to fully understand and exchange information), but please take a moment to recognize where their experience and information comes from.
Further violations of rule #3 will result in revocation of your membership here.
John_Wayne777
01-29-08, 07:16
John_Wayne777: The Golden Sabers do indeed have some excessive muzzle flash; one neighboring agency turned 35,000 rounds of GS into training ammo as the flash was so bad... The Ranger Talons, Fed HST and Tac, and Gold Dot's all work better.
Another benefit of the low light class we had in Ohio this past November was getting a feel for how big a deal muzzle flash is. When Ken had somebody shoot Golden Saber ammo I think everybody on the range ended up getting the flashbulb effect.
The flash from a .45 shooting GS was worse than ANY of the rifles on the line by a WIDE margin.
For those who wonder what the "flashbulb effect" is:
When your eyes are adjusted for low light conditions and you touch off a round of GS the extreme muzzle flash can actually "white out" your vision for a fraction of a second. That may not seem like a big deal but if you get into a shoothouse with that stuff and you start trying to address multiple threats or moving targets, (or static targets while you are moving) you'll begin to see how that can be a bad thing.
...not to mention that the great big ball of fire will grab the notice of anyone around, which can be a bad thing under certain circumstances.
Sidewinder6
01-29-08, 11:57
Right. A 147gr bullet will generally have more momentum than a high-velocity 115gr or 124gr out of a 9mm. Momentum is what knocks down steel plates.
FWIW, people aren't steel plates. By that logic, you'd be better off throwing a baseball at an AK-wielding maniac than shooting him with a .45 ...
No doubt. That same point has been proven many times with the .45 ACP unfortunately. When anyone studies case histories/ AAR, whatever there are always stories that ruin the rules.
FWIW- I havent checked the figures for throwing around big balls but I do like heavier ammo over the light and fast stuff. Im not an industry expert but draw my personal conclusions from well over 100 autopsies. And I stayed at Holiday Inn last night. :D
Larger handgun projectiles crush more tissue (ie. make bigger holes) and are less effected by common intermediate barriers, like auto windshields.
Ridgerunner665
01-29-08, 15:45
John_Wayne777: The Golden Sabers do indeed have some excessive muzzle flash; one neighboring agency turned 35,000 rounds of GS into training ammo as the flash was so bad... The Ranger Talons, Fed HST and Tac, and Gold Dot's all work better.
The 230 grain standard pressure Golden Sabres I've been shooting don't have any noticeable muzzle flash. I bet the ones you're referring to are the 185 grain +P's...right???
No, 230 gr GS--different lots have exhibited varying degrees of flash.
-------------------------------------------------------
I guess the FBI and other Federal LE agencies did not get the word from the internet that 9 mm 147 gr does not work, as they just selected another 9 mm 147 gr load for duty issue: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=120174#post120174
Alpha Sierra
01-29-08, 17:07
We compared the 9 mm Gold Dot 124 gr standard pressure to the 124 gr +P out of a Glock 17:
9 mm 124 gr JHP Gold Dot 53618 (lot# F08H33), gel calib= 9.5 cm @ 605 f/s
Bare Gelatin--vel=1144, pen=13.0, RD=0.62, RL=0.32, RW=125.5
4 layers of Denim-- vel=1153, pen=16.6, RD=0.51, RL=0.43, RW=125.2
9 mm 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot 53617 (lot# B03J35), gel calib= 9.0 cm @ 596 f/s
Bare Gelatin--vel=1225, pen=12.0, RD=0.67, RL=0.30, RW=124.2
4 layers of Denim--vel=1239, pen=13.0, RD=0.54, RL=0.39, RW=124.5
Both of these loads offer acceptable performance, although the 124 gr +P has a slight edge.
Hi again Doc. I'm glad this discussion is useful to all.
My current 9x19 carry load is the first of the two you mention here. You indicated that the second load has a slight edge. I'd like to understand what gives the GD 124 +P its edge. From the data I can see that the 124 penetrates deeper in bare and clothed gel and all other parameters are essentially the same, except the +P load has a slightly larger retained diameter. Is that why the +P loading has the slight edge?
Truth be told, I am a fan of heavy-for-caliber bullets and carry 158s in 38 Special (Remington's LSWCHP +P) and in 357 Mag (again, Remington's SJHP).
The 124 gr +P GD has better expansion and is more consistent.
------------------------------
If you are running a 2" .38, then the Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP is the load that offers the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG. Out of a 2” J-frame:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/38_135GDRecov.jpg
.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot (53921), ave vel=856f/s
BG: pen=13.1”, RD=0.56”, RW=134.5gr
4 layer denim: pen=13.6”, RD=0.53”, RW=134.1gr
auto windshield: pen=9.4”, RD=0.51”, RW=129.6gr
Downside is the appreciable recoil and relatively poor intermediate barrier performance. Below are some other .38 sp loads from a 2" BUG:
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00000313/38_Sp_BUG_load_sample.jpg
Ridgerunner665
01-29-08, 21:18
No, 230 gr GS--different lots have exhibited varying degrees of flash
Makes sense too after thinking about it... I've recently seen 2 different lots vary by 90 fps in MV.
If you are running a 2" .38, then the Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP is the load that offers the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG. Out of a 2” J-frame:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/38_135GDRecov.jpg
.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot (53921), ave vel=856f/s
BG: pen=13.1”, RD=0.56”, RW=134.5gr
4 layer denim: pen=13.6”, RD=0.53”, RW=134.1gr
auto windshield: pen=9.4”, RD=0.51”, RW=129.6gr
Downside is the appreciable recoil and relatively poor intermediate barrier performance. Below are some other .38 sp loads from a 2" BUG:
http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/album/00000313/38_Sp_BUG_load_sample.jpg
WOW, the denim results of the non +P look terrible. is there a non +P 38spl load you would recommend? i have a Colt Agent where +P isn't really recommended and if decent performance out of a non +P is attainable i'd prefer to go that route for carry ammo.
thanks in advance Doc!
I personally carry standard pressure wadcutters in lightweight J-frames with Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP's in speed strips for re-loads. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame; when faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 spl JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then I go with the penetration... If you jump up to a +P loading, then the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP works just fine as previously noted.
I use mostly Winchester RangerT 147 Grn JHP, product number RA9T. These have a solid track record, function great in my 9mm's and the price is very fair, usually can be had for under $25 for 50 rounds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the LAPD duty load for 9mm. I hear they use their sidearms on occasion ;) .
As mentioned in another thread and while only anecdotal, the last dozen or so OIS incidents around here with Win 147 gr RA9T have all ended with one definitive shot...
HolyRoller
02-02-08, 12:41
The only reason I don't keep 147s around for my 9mms is because the Winchester White Box version started keyholing at 50 yards. That was from my Sams M9 that groups easily under 3" with match loads at 50 yards. Some people say why worry about 50 yards with a pistol, since the average gunfight is only [pick random number that nobody knows is accurate anyway] yards away? Well, in my county, we have a lot of open spaces, and when rounds are incoming, it's a looong way back to the trunk to break out my AR. Just for one recent example, that Labeet cretin in Miami last year decided not to have an average gunfight, and shot at police from more than 50 yards away. Yup, it's a looong way back to the trunk under those circumstances.
Now I run 115gr +P DPX, which will stay on center mass 50 yards away even with my stock M9. However, now that I'm about to get issued a SIG 220 DAK, the 1911 goes to off-duty and I'll be mostly out of the 9mm business.
Army Chief
02-02-08, 15:55
Some people say why worry about 50 yards with a pistol, since the average gunfight is only [pick random number that nobody knows is accurate anyway] yards away?
No offense intended whatsover, but I may be one of the "why worry" people that you're talking about. Open country notwithstanding, I know very few shooters that are going to consistently be able to place incapacitating shots under duress with a 9mm at distances over 50 meters.
You're absolutely right in that, as Clint Smith so succinctly puts it, the purpose of the handgun is to give you a chance "to fight your way back to a rifle." Still, short of providing a general supressive effect, if you're having to make (or take) shots over 50 meters, a keyholing projectile is probably the least of your troubles, no?
Chief
HolyRoller, the original Win 147 gr JHP loads were known as "OSM"--that stands for Olin Super Match... Any good 147 gr load from a quality pistol should be able to easily get on target at 100 yards, let alone 50 yards. We have done numerous walk back drills and there was no problem keeping on chest size steel at 100 yards with all service pistol calibers, including 9mm shooting 147 gr loads.
HolyRoller
02-02-08, 21:44
No offense intended whatsover,
Too late--I'm already mortally offended. This will have to be resolved on the field of honor, sir!:mad: :D
but I may be one of the "why worry" people that you're talking about. Open country notwithstanding, I know very few shooters that are going to consistently be able to place incapacitating shots under duress with a 9mm at distances over 50 meters.
I know plenty of shooters who can do just that. If you count shooting one-handed at a sub-4" 10-ring 50 yards away at the state, regional, or national championships as duress, that is. Whether this is comparable to the effect of being in deadly combat, I don't know, although I fervently hope that learning to hit tiny targets while in the throes of match nerves would be of some help.
You're absolutely right in that, as Clint Smith so succinctly puts it, the purpose of the handgun is to give you a chance "to fight your way back to a rifle." Still, short of providing a general supressive effect, if you're having to make (or take) shots over 50 meters, a keyholing projectile is probably the least of your troubles, no?
Chief
I would submit that it's the foremost of your troubles, because keyholing means that the bullet is starting to tumble just when you need all the accuracy you can get. Also, even if it hits, it probably won't be on the hollowpoint.
That said, yes I know a 50-yard pistol shot is, how would an MBA put it, a 4-sigma outlier. I just like to think that if I can hit stuff 50 yards out with some consistency, then probalee, I can hit anything that's closer.
Doc, I do have some 147 Gold Dots in the ammo drawer, and someday soon I'll see how they do in my regular M9 instead of WWB 147s from my former match M9. Unfortunately, the pasture behind my house where I usually shoot is out of service for the next few days while my dad's bulls graze there. What do you think of the DPX in 9mm and .38? I carry the DPX .38 in my 637 and since as far as I can tell it's not +P, I plan to continue using it if I get that Colt Agent I was looking at today. Is there a better choice in non+P? If the answer is wadcutters, how hard are they to reload under stress?
Wasn't the 147gr 9mm designed for suppressed weapons?:cool:
A 50yd pistol shot is a ridiculous skill you'll never need. The only exception is if something happens and you do need that skill level.
(iow ... never say never)
Alpha Sierra
02-03-08, 14:43
Count me in as someone who sees a lot of value in being able to make ridiculous shots on demand.
I am not a very good pistol shot, but every time I leave the local club I do so after throwing a cylinder or magazine at the 50 yard gong. I am batting about 800 - 850 with my service-sized handguns (both semi and revolver) and about 250 with a Model 637.
I also enjoy a lot of prone shooting with irons at 600 to 1000 yards with a centerfire and 100 to 200 yards with a rimfire. It makes closer distances with optics seem ridiculously easy.
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