View Full Version : If You Could Change 5 Things In Firearms Culture...
Assume you had a magic wand, however you cannot make changes in the law, only in the mindsets of firearm owners.
1. Replace the word "tactical" with "practical." No more tactical rifles, tactical holsters or tactical combat pants. The word "tactical" could go back to a limited use word within the military along with "strategic" where it belongs.
Sure it was kind of fun at first, sorta like playing army as kids. Getting a "tactical" holster the first time made me feel like I had some sort of "strategic" advantage. But "practical" holsters are far more useful and very few people with "tactical" items have an actual "tactical" need. It's kinda like adults playing "dress up Navy Seal."
2. Eliminate the "open carry" bias. Now I understand the many "practical" advantages to a concealed weapon and I don't think we should eliminate the "concealed option." But it's bad enough when some liberal see's a gun and get's upset, it's even worse when supposedly "pro gun" people do it.
There was a time in this country not too long ago when trucks had gun racks, kids walked through town with slung .22s to go shoot cans at the local "plinking range" and people went camping, hiking or fishing with a holstered handgun on their hip.
3. Recognize the important distinctions between combat expert, world class competitor and enthusiast. There are within the firearms community true experts who know all about real gun fighting. They have names like Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb and the late Jeff Cooper, etc.
There are also very talented shooters who have names like Ray Chapman, Jerry Miculek and the late Jack Weaver.
The rest of us are enthusiasts. And I don't care how many classes you have, if you are an NRA instructor, if you are a typical LEO, if you hunt every season, if you have read every Collectors Grade Firearms book ever published, etc. you are still basically an enthusiast.
You might be a great shot but that doesn't mean you know about combat and it doesn't mean you are beating the big names at competitions. And it's ok to simply be an enthusiast. Most of us (thankfully) will never be subjected to the necessary experience to become an expert.
4. Make basic gun safety and intro fundamentals the "rule of the day." In the quest to be a "tactical expert" a LOT of people have skipped over basic gun safety and beginning fundamentals because they "know that stuff already." And this is why youtube if full of quick draw, tactical assholes shooting themselves in the leg or foot.
Again, there was a time not too long ago when being an accomplished shooter and reasonably knowledgeable individual was sufficient. Your average gun owner "learned" from the experiences of Jeff Cooper and Herbert McBride, they didn't feel the need to try and compete with them.
Today you have people with little or no established foundation trying to emulate the skills of Kyle Defoor. You have people taking their recently purchased AR-15 and Glock to "fighting carbine" classes. This is a lot like trying out Nascar with a learners permit.
There is of course nothing wrong with taking a "fighting carbine" class, but if you don't have established basics, especially safe gun handling and basic sighting principles, you aren't going to get as much benefit from that "advanced training" as you would if you had an established foundation.
5. Bubba Gunsmithing is NOT cool. There was a time when a man who called himself a gunsmith was a true artisan. He probably apprenticed under a recognized smith for at least a decade before he struck out on his own. He knew his business and most gun owners understood they were NOT gunsmiths.
But the import ban of 1989 did a funny thing. It turned your average joe into a gun builder when he discovered in the late 1990s that a cheap parts kit plus a US made receiver equaled previously unobtainable firearms. Within 5 years people with almost no experience were not just gunsmiths, they were damn near armorers.
There was of course an upside in that quite a few people became extremely knowledgeable about ARs, AKs and FAL rifles. Some could even do some impressive builds and went on to establish businesses based upon parts kit builds.
But there was a dark and evil side and that was when people who figured out how to cobble together a functioning firearm began to build their depraved and warped firearm ideas. Monstrosities such as those produced by Red Jacket Firearms appeared on the market as if Andy Warhol rose from the dead and became a enthusiast for retarded guns for idiots.
People made Moisin Nagant "handguns." People made double pump shotguns bolted together and actuated by a VFG contraption that fed both the left and right hand eject host guns. People made injection molded crap that let you make your Glock 19 into a convoluted long arm that could hold as much accessory shit as an M4.
In short people made shit that no real gunsmith would ever make.
Moose-Knuckle
08-11-12, 02:03
1.) Do away with fanboys.
2.) Do away with incorrect vernacular such as “clip” instead of magazine, “jam” instead of malfunction, “assault rifle” instead of semi-automatic carbine, et al.
3.) Do away with the "Fudd" mentality.
4.) Do away with the attitude that the Kalashnikov is the "enemy's weapon".
5.) Ingrain the observation of the “four golden rules” into every firearm owner’s psyche.
An honorable 6.) More female interest into the gun culture.
Edit to add: 7.) The importance and the preservation of the 2nd Amendment.
this thread has all kinds of win in it, that first post will go down as one of my favorite posts EVER! well said my friend.
BrigandTwoFour
08-11-12, 11:18
1. Do away with the "Better than you because of what I own" culture.
I get it, that whole establishing hierarchy within any community is part of human nature. But way too often it feels like people are trying to buy respect or skill by the sheer number of things they own. Then we get focused on this brand versus that brand. And sure, there are definitely some components that are better than others, but there is a point of diminishing return on investment.
In reality, most of us are never going into a combat zone. We buy the things we buy because we enjoy them, but that doesn't make us some kind of combat arms expert who has the right to tell the "new guy" his business.
2. Get rid of the conservative (us) vs liberal (them) mentality
In the grand scheme of things, it is this mindset that has done the most damage to our sport. Gun owners assume, wrongly, that everyone who enjoys shooting has the same political beliefs that they do. Gun owners then become an echo chamber for their own sometimes ultra-conservative beliefs. That creates an environment that disrespects, disregards, and actively pushes away a potentially huge number of new shooters who don't believe the same thing.
It has gotten to the point that the far left has adopted gun control as a party platform. It would have been great to not make this a political party issue that galvanizes everyone into one side or the other. I have a lot of far left friends who I have converted into gun-friendly folks; it is entirely possible to hold liberal social views and still regard the right and means to self defense as sacred. But, despite that, there are many many more who refuse to take part in such a barbaric hobby, because that's the party line.
Lastly, every time a debate breaks out over some news article where both sides are talking- it always devolves into political mud slinging and childish name calling along party lines. That is bullshit, and solves absolutely nothing.
3. "Tactical" and "Operator" need to be killed, right now.
Using these terms makes us look like a bunch of airsoft commandos itching for a gunfight. Getting jocked up with multi-cam, chest rigs, an Ops-Core helmet and your favorite drop leg holster just for a day at the range makes you (and us) look like a bunch of idiots. Those items have a very specific purpose for very specific scenarios, everything else is playing dress up.
Furthermore, because of #2, it makes gun owners appear to be a bunch of ultra-conservative militiamen just itching to overthrow the government or have a go at the jack booted thug authorities.
4. The "Manlier than thou" bullshit
Want to know why more women don't get involved? Because a bunch of assholes pretend that the shooting sports are a he-man woman haters club. It's a lot less prevalent among younger shooters in my age bracket, who actively try and get our wives and girlfriends involved. However, it really pisses me (and my wife) off when we got to the range and some geriatric fudd starts loudly mouthing off about women not belonging behind a rifle and should be in the kitchen.
Or, alternatively, the assholes that think that because they are men, they naturally know how to handle a firearm better than a woman. I love it when they start spewing incorrect information and my wife lets them go on, and then drops a knowledge bomb on them about shit they were just making up. Or, even better, when they try to offer unsolicited shooting tips before even seeing if she knows how to shoot. If we treat women like little kids who can't take care of themselves, then we shouldn't be surprised when they don't want to join us for a day at the range.
5. Fudds.
There was a jackass at the range one day who brought his own hand reloading setup, a monster spotting scope, and a rifle. Normally, I would completely respect a guy who was that dedicated to the sport. But he got pissed off at the other four of us who were using semi-autos and wanted to go down range and check our targets every twenty minutes or so. He fired six shots over the course of two hours, and insisted that we not go check targets- ever.
Guys like him are bad news. They will sell out other gun owners in a heartbeat if it meant they got left alone (for the time being). They think my AR and M14 are terrorist weapons, and will preach it to anyone who listens. Most of the time, they aren't even very good shooters.
That's all I've got. Steyr hit most of them.
Steyr You are dead on with your post .I can still remember as a Kid a whole group of My friends probably 10 was walking down to the shooting range we build into the woods .All had 22LR or a shotgun.
the Local police pulled up and help explained Gun safety how to aim, Never flag anyone . shot with us and then we Piled into his LTD he took us to the store for a Coke on his Dime . I miss those days :cray:
he even came day one day with hearing protection for all of us he was a good Man the first 30-30 lever action i got to shot was his .
he so enjoyed teaching us and talked about the CMP days I wish more would do this Now
Assume you had a magic wand, however you cannot make changes in the law, only in the mindsets of firearm owners.
1. Replace the word "tactical" with "practical." No more tactical rifles, tactical holsters or tactical combat pants. The word "tactical" could go back to a limited use word within the military along with "strategic" where it belongs.
I like many of their products and own 3 bags myself, but things like "Tactical Rolling Carry-On Luggage" from Maxpedition irks me:
http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/Tactical-Rolling-Carry-On-Luggage-13p1674.htm
A great example of the term gone off the rails into the ridiculous. The rest of your comment I found:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/1265243008265.jpg
I'd like to see more knowledgable individuals selling firearms as a whole rather than the standard narrow minded, arrogant and poorly informed employees/owners that are all too commonplace. If there's one thing many of them are sure of, it's that you won't be teaching them anything anytime soon.
Monstrosities such as those produced by Red Jacket Firearms appeared on the market as if Andy Warhol rose from the dead and became a enthusiast for retarded guns for idiots.
Outstanding !
1. I dont want to see your ****ing gun. Dont pull it out of the holster behind the line, at the store, or during a BBQ.
2. I only care about the hits.
I dont care what accessories you bought , or want to debate the 50 vs 100 yard zero with you. If we are on the range I only care about hits and time. Stop begrudging guys over match triggers or extended tubes, match barrels on service guns, ect.
3. Just because you have a blog doesnt mean your opinion matters.
Oh noes ! I said it ! Every mediocre shooter in the world with some training and a computer can put their opinion out there. I think thats fine, hell, I love that. lets have that conversation. But your not an expert.
4. Help the new guy. Seriously , most of us started out shooting stoopid. I didnt own a timer for years, I never shot past 7 yards with a pistol, and I carried my mags backwards in the pouch. lend a hand, take the time to take a new guy out, and get them a little less un****ed.
5. No 4 does not make you an instructor.
theblackknight
08-11-12, 14:03
This post rocks! Styer is almost on a roll.
1: civilians who spend the majority of their training time with a rifle.
Ammo,gas and range fee's arnt cheap. Why are you wasting it?
2:The whole tactical timmy culture.
Taking 4 classes a year when you could take one and practice up those skills. Buying stupid shit you dont need. Being a resume jockey. etc etc etc. 400$ for a Arteryx coat could get you a lot of ammo.
3: Zombie shit.
**** it!
4:Comp Haters.
Gun people who will make up any excuse under the sun not to go shoot a competition for fear they might realize that no matter how many ribbon,courses,deployments, etc etc they have, that they are really just mediocure or suck. Excuses usually come in the flavor of"gaming teaches you bad habits/will get you killed" or "they use compensators and scopes to make it easy derp!". Top GM shooters have the best gun handling skills on the planet,which is what most people need to work on anyway. Some of them even have classes. You could take a class from Bob Vogel right from Grey Group. He uses a glock w 5lb trigger to win world titles, I'm guessing he's prob a little more advanced then Trendywarriorculturereference Tactical LLC company number 8001.
5:Shitty ranges with gay rules.
No drawing from holster?No muzzle high reloads?No rapid fire? GTFO
I also hate heavy forum moderation.
The_War_Wagon
08-11-12, 15:25
4. The "Manlier than thou" bullshit
Want to know why more women don't get involved? Because a bunch of assholes pretend that the shooting sports are a he-man woman haters club.
Your club membership just got revoked.
http://www.bundyology.com/nomaam2.jpg
I know what you mean though. I taught the little gal I was engaged to 20+ years ago in college how to shoot, and in short order, she was a better shot than I! :eek:
Mauser KAR98K
08-11-12, 16:01
1.) Do away with fanboys.
2.) Do away with incorrect vernacular such as “clip” instead of magazine, “jam” instead of malfunction, “assault rifle” instead of semi-automatic carbine, et al.
3.) Do away with the "Fudd" mentality.
4.) Do away with the attitude that the Kalashnikov is the "enemy's weapon".
5.) Ingrain the observation of the “four golden rules” into every firearm owner’s psyche.
An honorable 6.) More female interest into the gun culture.
Edit to add: 7.) The importance and the preservation of the 2nd Amendment.
End of thread. Close it now and Sticky it right here!!
Great thread Steyr.
Your points are dead on.
Grant and I probably won't rename our respective businesses anytime soon though. ;)
If you don't have the inclination to support the second amendment you magically become sterile. This way you can't pass down your defective surival instincts (genes) to future generations.
[B]5. Fudds.
There was a jackass at the range one day who brought his own hand reloading setup, a monster spotting scope, and a rifle. Normally, I would completely respect a guy who was that dedicated to the sport. But he got pissed off at the other four of us who were using semi-autos and wanted to go down range and check our targets every twenty minutes or so. He fired six shots over the course of two hours, and insisted that we not go check targets- ever.
Guys like him are bad news. They will sell out other gun owners in a heartbeat if it meant they got left alone (for the time being). They think my AR and M14 are terrorist weapons, and will preach it to anyone who listens. Most of the time, they aren't even very good shooters.
That's all I've got. Steyr hit most of them.
plus the skeet and trap fudds. But the worst in my opinion are the hunter fudds. Shooting 10 rounds in the fall doesn't make you a shooter or 2nd amendment supporter. First they came for.......
Steyr You are dead on with your post .I can still remember as a Kid a whole group of My friends probably 10 was walking down to the shooting range we build into the woods .All had 22LR or a shotgun.
the Local police pulled up and help explained Gun safety how to aim, Never flag anyone . shot with us and then we Piled into his LTD he took us to the store for a Coke on his Dime . I miss those days :cray:
he even came day one day with hearing protection for all of us he was a good Man the first 30-30 lever action i got to shot was his .
he so enjoyed teaching us and talked about the CMP days I wish more would do this Now
And I bet you and every one of those kids never developed a "us vs. them" mentality when it came to the police. I had similar experiences.
BrigandTwoFour
08-11-12, 18:36
And I bet you and every one of those kids never developed a "us vs. them" mentality when it came to the police. I had similar experiences.
When i was in high school, several of my friends and I were avid paintball players. We set up our own course in the woods next to rarely-traveled road in South Florida.
Two times, one of the neighbors called the police on us and said that we were shooting guns at their house. Both times the police arrived, and we stopped the game and politely came out to greet them. We showed them our equipment, explained the rules, even let them shoot a bit. We demonstrated how it was not possible for our game to interfere with the complaining neighbor's house. They wished us a happy weekend and told us to stay safe.
None of us ever developed that type of "us vs them" mentality with the police either.
This post rocks! Styer is almost on a roll.
1: civilians who spend the majority of their training time with a rifle.
Ammo,gas and range fee's arnt cheap. Why are you wasting it?
2:The whole tactical timmy culture.
Taking 4 classes a year when you could take one and practice up those skills. Being a resume jockey.
Holy Shit, YES!!
To go along with the overemphasis of rifle training, the mentality perpetuated by quite a few "highly respected" instructors in various iterations that failing to "show up to the gunfight" with a rifle = failure.
"Buying shit you don't need" is tiresome though. That's one of the things about the "gun culture" I'd love to see dropped. Most of us will never need a firearm. The "need" argument is used by gun grabbers and their Fudd allies against us.
2. Get rid of the conservative (us) vs liberal (them) mentality
In the grand scheme of things, it is this mindset that has done the most damage to our sport. Gun owners assume, wrongly, that everyone who enjoys shooting has the same political beliefs that they do. Gun owners then become an echo chamber for their own sometimes ultra-conservative beliefs. That creates an environment that disrespects, disregards, and actively pushes away a potentially huge number of new shooters who don't believe the same thing.
It has gotten to the point that the far left has adopted gun control as a party platform. It would have been great to not make this a political party issue that galvanizes everyone into one side or the other. I have a lot of far left friends who I have converted into gun-friendly folks; it is entirely possible to hold liberal social views and still regard the right and means to self defense as sacred. But, despite that, there are many many more who refuse to take part in such a barbaric hobby, because that's the party line.
Lastly, every time a debate breaks out over some news article where both sides are talking- it always devolves into political mud slinging and childish name calling along party lines. That is bullshit, and solves absolutely nothing.
Yep. I have lots of friends who are liberal-leaning in many respects yet enjoy shooting as much as I do. They have never reacted with anything but delight to the black rifles in my safe. If I came across the way many gun owners do on these boards, I would never have been able to introduce so many to an activity I enjoy, support, and defend.
[B]5. Fudds.
3: Zombie shit.
**** it!
..............
5:Shitty ranges with gay rules.
No drawing from holster?No muzzle high reloads?No rapid fire? GTFO
Dear god, YES!
1. I dont want to see your ****ing gun. Dont pull it out of the holster behind the line, at the store, or during a BBQ.
2. I only care about the hits.
I dont care what accessories you bought , or want to debate the 50 vs 100 yard zero with you. If we are on the range I only care about hits and time. Stop begrudging guys over match triggers or extended tubes, match barrels on service guns, ect.
3. Just because you have a blog doesnt mean your opinion matters.
Oh noes ! I said it ! Every mediocre shooter in the world with some training and a computer can put their opinion out there. I think thats fine, hell, I love that. lets have that conversation. But your not an expert.
4. Help the new guy. Seriously , most of us started out shooting stoopid. I didnt own a timer for years, I never shot past 7 yards with a pistol, and I carried my mags backwards in the pouch. lend a hand, take the time to take a new guy out, and get them a little less un****ed.
5. No 4 does not make you an instructor.
I like it.
1. Eliminate the mental link that makes guns appeal to idiots.
That's it.
1. Do away with the "Better than you because of what I own" culture.
2. Get rid of the conservative (us) vs liberal (them) mentality
3. "Tactical" and "Operator" need to be killed, right now.
4. The "Manlier than thou" bullshit
5. Fudds.
*Golf clap*
Doc Safari
08-13-12, 11:11
I can't name five things but one thing that consistently bugs me is the reason I'm not a member of very many gun forums.
I used to lurk on many forums that I never registered for, because it seems like sooner or later every gun forum goes from a core of conscientious, informative, and civil members to a free-for-all of sarcastic, mean-spirited, arrogant snobbery both amongst advanced members and know-it-all newbies. In a nutshell, every forum eventually turns into TOS. :blink: Thank God this one has avoided it so far thanks to some quick and surgical moderation.
Case in point is when a long-time productive member suddenly gets banned. You'd think that after warnings and timeouts the person would maybe get the message? Do you really want your posts where you showed what an ass you are to be on the internet for all eternity?
Another case in point is the classic "how do you like my rifle" thread that turns into "you guys are all assholes for not liking it and my piece of shit will outshoot your Colt/BCM/DD/whatever just because the guy at the gun shop said so."
That culture of "I'm always right" and the lack of civility have to go.
Maybe one other thing I could name is how whenever a Christian (like me) espouses his beliefs, you have a bunch of haters pile on and try to tell us that we're the problem and whatnot.
Now hear this: I know my beliefs and you will never change my mind.
Hear this also: I could care less what you believe and your hatred of my religion pretty much guarantees I won't put much stock in anything else you say either.
I'm not out to convert anyone. Believe what you want. But let me believe what I want also.
1. Ban Match homos from posting on any forum ever.. except match forums. (if you're a match gay... don't get offended... I just like picking on you guys)
2. Ban gay satin match homo shirts. You look gay in your tight shirt... why not get the skinny jeans too?
3. Ban the use of bird guns for anything other than BIRD HUNTING.
4. BAN the use of the terms WIN/FAIL on any gun forum other that ARFcom where the video gaming nerds can congregate.
5. Ban rob_s.
:D
1. Do away with the "Better than you because of what I own" culture.
I get it, that whole establishing hierarchy within any community is part of human nature. But way too often it feels like people are trying to buy respect or skill by the sheer number of things they own. Then we get focused on this brand versus that brand. And sure, there are definitely some components that are better than others, but there is a point of diminishing return on investment.
In reality, most of us are never going into a combat zone. We buy the things we buy because we enjoy them, but that doesn't make us some kind of combat arms expert who has the right to tell the "new guy" his business.
Completely disagree. If is wasn't for these people, then everyone would be shooting a DPMS and an XD.
BrigandTwoFour
08-13-12, 18:07
Completely disagree. If is wasn't for these people, then everyone would be shooting a DPMS and an XD.
Not necessarily.
It is entirely possible to show people quantitatively why one product is better than another for any given purpose. Education someone about a mistake they made, or would have made, is absolutely fine and I think this forum does a good job of it.
But there are a lot of jackasses out there in the firearms culture that will berate you over it. Or, they think that they are somehow superior to you because they have more money to throw away. Again, not necessarily here, but how many times have you seen someone try to take the "king of the gun guys" crown because they bought the latest and greatest firearm? Some douchebag comes in talking about how awesome he is because he just dropped $3K on a SCAR- even though he has less trigger time than the forum average.
Here, those guys usually get called out. But there are a lot of places that they don't. That's what I'm talking about. I should have been clearer about the point.
1) fudd vs tactical culture thing. Let's keep this fun
2) buying the cheapest crap guns available- it costs a quarter every time you squeeze the trigger, can you seriously not wait one more paycheck and get the one you want?
3)the discovery channel-we really don't need gun people making us look like uneducated yayhoos on national TV
4)1911/m1A worship among guys who barely ever shoot.
5) politics-gun control is a stupid idea, let's just agree on that.
In any political landscape, cheap guns are still a good thing. A crappy gun in the hands of law abiding citizens are still better than no gun, as it usually doesn't even matter if it can get through a whole magazine, let alone a 2kRdChallenge.
It's natural to begrudge idiots who just outspent you in one shopping trip that just overpaid for the latest in tacticool technology, but that itself isn't the problem, it's only when they commit some other egregious faux pas that it needs to be an issue.
I could simplify it to three things:
Improve the ignorance level of beginning firearm owners - this alone would do away with many negligent discharges, and a lot of other jackassery that reflects poorly on gun ownership in general.
Ranges, competitions, or other groups that are way too risk-phobic need to realize that gun clubs are groups that revolve around deadly tools, and forgo using the forehead as a fifth point of contact and realize that intelligent rules, not paranoia about what the lowest common denominator can dream up to injure themselves and those around them, is the safest way to go.
The last one is the sustainability of self-importance for people who use gun culture as a means of self aggrandizement - this includes, but isn't limited to every asshat who runs a meaningless blog, uses their position with a manufacturing firm to generate stupid drama with other organizations, and all that garbage. If more people just ignored it and moved the hell on, it would happen less. Period.
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