View Full Version : ATF 4473 Question
I own a home in MN and AZ.
It doesn't appear that a person can have a driver license in more than one state for some reason (based on my Google research) but it does appear that you can have, for example, as MN driver license and an AZ state issues ID card. Would an Arizona ID card be valid ID for completing the ATF 4473 form?
The reason I ask is because I would like to purchase a suppressor in AZ (not legal in MN) and based on suppressorresearch.com, I need to do a 4473 in addition to Form 4.
The instructions on form 4473 seem to indicate that is is not a problem. Anyone else done something like this?
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
I don't recall doing a 4473 for a suppressor and I purchased two of them.
My suggestion would be to have your gun shop that you wish to purchase the can from, call their local ATF IOI and see what they have to say about it.
I know a state issued ID card is sufficient to purchase a firearm if it is issued from the state of residency. The problem being, is that you said you have 2 places where you own property. Owning property doesn't make you a resident. Having a job, titling a vehicle, paying taxes and HAVING A DRIVER'S LICENSE make you a resident. So that may or may not answer your question.
I own a home in MN and AZ.
It doesn't appear that a person can have a driver license in more than one state for some reason (based on my Google research) but it does appear that you can have, for example, as MN driver license and an AZ state issues ID card. Would an Arizona ID card be valid ID for completing the ATF 4473 form?
The reason I ask is because I would like to purchase a suppressor in AZ (not legal in MN) and based on suppressorresearch.com, I need to do a 4473 in addition to Form 4.
The instructions on form 4473 seem to indicate that is is not a problem. Anyone else done something like this?
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
That is EXACTLY how Cavalry Arms got put out of business.
A CA resident with a AZ state ID bought guns at the AZ location, filed out 4473s and passed the NICS check. The guns were never even taken back to CA. But ATF stated that Cavalry Arms sold guns to a CA resident which were illegal in CA.
I'm not sure if that individual actually had a residence in AZ or not, and in all likelihood was probably a cooperating informant who had got his own as in trouble with ATF and was as a result trying to help ATF land a bigger fish for his own benefit.
But if it can happen to Cav Arms, it can happen to you. I personally don't see any reason you shouldn't be able to own NFA items at your legal AZ residence, but you want to make really sure.
I don't recall doing a 4473 for a suppressor and I purchased two of them.
You always have to do a 4473 for any firearm transfer. You simply don't have to do a NICS check, that is why the 4473 has a box you can check for "No NICS check was required because the transfer involved only NFA firearms."
Read the fine print on the back of the 4473 form. If you have two residences in two states you are a resident of whichever of those states you are physically in at the time. You just need proof of residency which could be a utility bill, lease, etc. The state issued ID may be sufficient, I don't recall. You should be able to use you MN DL for proof of identity and provide other documentation for proof of residency.
SteyrAUG
That was one of Cav Arms issues, but they had many more that in ATF's eyes were much worse. The issues were found during inspections. The person you referenced did not own a home in Az, he was using the address of one of Cav Arms owners and leaving the weapons there.
As to NICS checks for NFA. They are required if the item was purchased by a Trust, Corp... The NICS check is performed on the person signing for the weapon on behalf of the trust...
You always have to do a 4473 for any firearm transfer. You simply don't have to do a NICS check, that is why the 4473 has a box you can check for "No NICS check was required because the transfer involved only NFA firearms."
Supressors aren't firearms though.
That is EXACTLY how Cavalry Arms got put out of business.
A CA resident with a AZ state ID bought guns at the AZ location, filed out 4473s and passed the NICS check. The guns were never even taken back to CA. But ATF stated that Cavalry Arms sold guns to a CA resident which were illegal in CA.
I'm not sure if that individual actually had a residence in AZ or not, and in all likelihood was probably a cooperating informant who had got his own as in trouble with ATF and was as a result trying to help ATF land a bigger fish for his own benefit.
But if it can happen to Cav Arms, it can happen to you. I personally don't see any reason you shouldn't be able to own NFA items at your legal AZ residence, but you want to make really sure.
That isn't what happened.
You can have a state ID card and have property in a free state and purchase firearms in a free state and keep them in that free state, but live in another non-free state.
SteyrAUG
That was one of Cav Arms issues, but they had many more that in ATF's eyes were much worse. The issues were found during inspections. The person you referenced did not own a home in Az, he was using the address of one of Cav Arms owners and leaving the weapons there.
As to NICS checks for NFA. They are required if the item was purchased by a Trust, Corp... The NICS check is performed on the person signing for the weapon on behalf of the trust...
I'm aware of the issues raised during inspections, but they didn't get prosecuted for sloppy paperwork.
As for the weapons and the CA guy. He had ID and passed his background check. If he didn't have a legal residence in AZ why did he have an ID and why did he pass the check?
Do you have any idea how common it is for somebody who has dual residency to pay a gun shop to store weapons for them? Nobody wants to buy $10k worth of guns, put them in a house they see on the holidays and then arrive to find out it has been broken into and everything stolen.
Sounds like the Cav guys offered a customer from CA some really good customer service. I could see IF the guy said he was taking them back to CA where they'd have to refuse the sale but that didn't happen. I could see if the guy failed the NICS check, but that didn't happen.
He had a valid state ID and passed his NICS check. Agreeing to store weapons for a customer to they don't get stolen from an unattended residence is NOT a crime. Cav Arms took the deal because they knew what they were up against and didn't have the resources to fight it.
Additionally, IF his state ID had the residence of one of the Cav Arms guys then that was a legal AZ residence (his ID said so) and he actually was storing the weapons at his place. But I don't think that was the address on the state ID.
Anyone who knows anything about this one knows that it was part of the Fast and Furious witch hunt and they were looking for dealers who were facilitating guns to Mexico. All they found was some lazy paperwork and a guy who had a CA address and obtained a legal AZ state ID so that he could purchase weapons that were legal in that state.
If he did not have legal AZ residency then the fault lies with the state which issued a valid ID and with NICS who approved the transfers.
Supressors aren't firearms though.
According to ATF they are. Just like a lightning link is considered a machine gun.
That isn't what happened.
You can have a state ID card and have property in a free state and purchase firearms in a free state and keep them in that free state, but live in another non-free state.
I agree, but they still got prosecuted for exactly that.
According to ATF they are. Just like a lightning link is considered a machine gun.
Man.. I don't remember doing 4473s on my cans.. but maybe I just forgot.
I'm aware of the issues raised during inspections, but they didn't get prosecuted for sloppy paperwork.
As for the weapons and the CA guy. He had ID and passed his background check. If he didn't have a legal residence in AZ why did he have an ID and why did he pass the check?
Do you have any idea how common it is for somebody who has dual residency to pay a gun shop to store weapons for them? Nobody wants to buy $10k worth of guns, put them in a house they see on the holidays and then arrive to find out it has been broken into and everything stolen.
Sounds like the Cav guys offered a customer from CA some really good customer service. I could see IF the guy said he was taking them back to CA where they'd have to refuse the sale but that didn't happen. I could see if the guy failed the NICS check, but that didn't happen.
He had a valid state ID and passed his NICS check. Agreeing to store weapons for a customer to they don't get stolen from an unattended residence is NOT a crime. Cav Arms took the deal because they knew what they were up against and didn't have the resources to fight it.
Additionally, IF his state ID had the residence of one of the Cav Arms guys then that was a legal AZ residence (his ID said so) and he actually was storing the weapons at his place. But I don't think that was the address on the state ID.
Anyone who knows anything about this one knows that it was part of the Fast and Furious witch hunt and they were looking for dealers who were facilitating guns to Mexico. All they found was some lazy paperwork and a guy who had a CA address and obtained a legal AZ state ID so that he could purchase weapons that were legal in that state.
If he did not have legal AZ residency then the fault lies with the state which issued a valid ID and with NICS who approved the transfers.
The cav arms deal was set up so the guy from CA could buy weapons that were not legal in CA. He has no legitimate reason to be in AZ other than to buy weapons.
I agree, but they still got prosecuted for exactly that.
There are several people that buy NFA all the time that keep them at out of state homes because they live in a non free state.
Thanks for all the replies.
According to this DOC (http://www.silencerresearch.com/Silencerguide.pdf) a suppressor goes on the 4473 after all NFA approvals + stamp (right before walking out the door).
It isnt a firearm but likely looked at the same as a stripped AR lower... goes on the 4473 as "Other".
Thanks for all the replies.
According to this DOC (http://www.silencerresearch.com/Silencerguide.pdf) a suppressor goes on the 4473 after all NFA approvals + stamp (right before walking out the door).
It isnt a firearm but likely looked at the same as a stripped AR lower... goes on the 4473 as "Other".
Wow. I'd have lost that bet for sure. Of course... the dealer that Gunz and I used is in jail now... so maybe we DIDN'T do the 4473!! :D
There are several people that buy NFA all the time that keep them at out of state homes because they live in a non free state.
You are correct.
But every since the Cav Arms thing I've been concerned. If it could happen then, it could happen to anyone.
My original post wasn't to be the "that gun isn't 922r compliant" guy who goes around the internet acting as a volunteer ATF compliance officer, I was simply saying "be careful, make sure."
To this day I'm still amazed at how the whole Cav Arms thing went down. Real wake up call for me.
Thanks for all the replies.
According to this DOC (http://www.silencerresearch.com/Silencerguide.pdf) a suppressor goes on the 4473 after all NFA approvals + stamp (right before walking out the door).
It isnt a firearm but likely looked at the same as a stripped AR lower... goes on the 4473 as "Other".
BOTH are defined as firearms.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf
CHAPTER 2. WHAT ARE “FIREARMS” UNDER THE NFA?
2.1.7 Silencer. A firearm silencer and a firearm muffler are defined as any device for silencing,
muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm.18 Firearm silencers are generally composed of
an outer tube, internal baffles, a front end cap, and a rear end cap
I'm aware of the issues raised during inspections, but they didn't get prosecuted for sloppy paperwork.
...
It wasn't merely paperwork issues that were found during the inspections.
It is a long read, but here is a link to the indictment against Cav Arms and Shawn Nealon. You will find they had bigger issues than selling to an out of state individual. I know this is only an indictment, but somewhere I have a link to the plea agreement as well. In the plea agreement Nealon acknowledges in the facts of the case that all of the allegations in the indictment are true.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6KRQT10vNOzZWM1N2UzNjgtNWY3YS00NWVhLWJmYmEtNWEyOWI5OThjZjk2/edit?hl=en&pli=1
You are correct.
But every since the Cav Arms thing I've been concerned. If it could happen then, it could happen to anyone.
I don't know how you can come to that conclusion after reading the indictment on cav arms.
They had multiple instances of selling guns to CA people who had no property in AZ. They also had multiple instances of cover up in their records to hide this activity.
Illegally manufacturing firearms with a 3rd party that did not possess a manufacturing license
Multiple instances of selling firearms to CA people who had no property in AZ and could not claim AZ residency
Incomplete 4473s and the A&D book to cover up this activity
Failure to report disposition of multiple handguns
Failure to report annual production numbers to the ATF
ITAR violations
Unregistered NFA weapons
Obliterated serial number on a firearm
Unaccounted for firearms in inventory
I purchased two cans in April and I did a 4473. No NICS check was completed.
I copied the below quote from the indictment. In addition to Cav Arms attorney admitting to it, ATF interviewed workers at the company molding the receiver halves for them. The employees logged over 6,000 left halves and 6,000 right halves. This was mentioned in the plea agreement.
"106. Although Cavalry Arms’ attorney acknowledged to ATF that Cavalry Arms had manufactured more than 6,000 receivers (classified as “firearms” by FTB and as defined as a“firearm” under the GCA) to avoid a recall, Cavalry Arms had reported to ATF in its required Annual Firearms Manufacturing and Exportation Reports that it had manufactured only 659 firearms since its inception in 2000."
I don't see how any of this had anything to do with Fast and Furious.
It is a long read, but here is a link to the indictment against Cav Arms and Shawn Nealon. You will find they had bigger issues than selling to an out of state individual. I know this is only an indictment, but somewhere I have a link to the plea agreement as well. In the plea agreement Nealon acknowledges in the facts of the case that all of the allegations in the indictment are true.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6KRQT10vNOzZWM1N2UzNjgtNWY3YS00NWVhLWJmYmEtNWEyOWI5OThjZjk2/edit?hl=en&pli=1
I've read it.
I also have some personal knowledge that isn't on the internet.
I also know Shawn took the plea. His business was destroyed and he was facing jail and financial devastation. Lots of people take the plea.
Being "right" doesn't mean anything. ATF has unlimited resources, Shawn didn't. ATF could drag the case out for as long as necessary, Shawn couldn't.
Like I said, it was a huge wake up call for me.
I too have some knowledge that is not on the internet. I have met Shawn but do not know him. I do know Warren Mee and several others that worked for Cav Arms and Ameetec.
Bottom line is, the info in the plea agreement was factual.
I guess if you have a different opinion, we will just have to disagree.
I copied the below quote from the indictment. In addition to Cav Arms attorney admitting to it, ATF interviewed workers at the company molding the receiver halves for them. The employees logged over 6,000 left halves and 6,000 right halves. This was mentioned in the plea agreement.
"106. Although Cavalry Arms’ attorney acknowledged to ATF that Cavalry Arms had manufactured more than 6,000 receivers (classified as “firearms” by FTB and as defined as a“firearm” under the GCA) to avoid a recall, Cavalry Arms had reported to ATF in its required Annual Firearms Manufacturing and Exportation Reports that it had manufactured only 659 firearms since its inception in 2000."
I don't see how any of this had anything to do with Fast and Furious.
There was a whole "legal to do at this location/not legal to do at that location" issues that was central to that point.
Basically they were hoping for guns headed to Mexico. When they didn't find anything like that, they found a bunch of other shit.
There were some definite problems like sloppy record keeping. But there was nothing "willful" regarding serious crimes.
Again, the CA guy had a valid state ID that listed an AZ address. If anyone is guilty of anything it is the state of AZ for issuing a state ID to a non resident.
FFLs are not detectives. They rely on state IDs and NICS to tell them who is approved and non approved for weapons transfers. That the guy worked out an arrangement for local storage has nothing to do with anything.
Now IF the guy did NOT have a state ID and /or failed the NICS check and Cav Arms completed the transaction THEN you'd have a really big issue. But that is not what happened.
I too have some knowledge that is not on the internet. I have met Shawn but do not know him. I do know Warren Mee and several others that worked for Cav Arms and Ameetec.
Bottom line is, the info in the plea agreement was factual.
I guess if you have a different opinion, we will just have to disagree.
I do know Shawn and Russ personally.
Regarding the plea agreement, yes it is a factual plea agreement. But again, lot's of people take the plea because they don't want to risk the time and money. That doesn't mean everything in the plea or indictment actually happened.
I am not certain you understood what I meant by factual. I meant the allegations in the complaint and plea agreement actually occurred.
We are way of the OP's topic, but the importation of OKO sights, manufacture of unregistered suppressors, machinguns... was willful in my opinion. You are entitled to yours.
I am not certain you understood what I meant by factual. I meant the allegations in the complaint and plea agreement actually occurred.
We are way of the OP's topic, but the importation of OKO sights, manufacture of unregistered suppressors, machinguns... was willful in my opinion. You are entitled to yours.
I must be out of the loop, but why would OKO sights not be importable?
As far as manufacturing unregistered NFA items, that happens to the big boys too sometimes. This is a sloppy paperwork issue. Granted it is more severe to not do NFA registration in a timely manner than screw up 4473s.
But here is the KEY DIFFERENCE.
It is one thing for a NFA manufacturer to make some cans and fun guns without taking care of the paperwork first for PERSONAL USE. It is of course STUPID but I've seen it plenty of times before.
It is quite another to make these items and then offer them for sale officially or unofficially. Cav Arms never did that. Lots of NFA manufacturers make R&D cans, test them out and then band saw them for scrap after recording results without ever registering them.
Again, it's a stupid thing to do. But it isn't exactly a serious crime. In all reality it was a paperwork issue. They should have been told to register them or forfeit them, that is ALL that should have happened. I can't tell you how many AZ gunsmiths I'm aware of (some of whom aren't even SOTs) who have off the books cans and DIAS. In most cases these are "in the floor" items kept "in case shit gets bad" and sometimes they get shot out in the desert. But they really aren't doing anything to contribute to criminal activity.
Is it illegal to do that? Absolutely. Is it a really stupid thing to potentially destroy your life over? You bet. But was it willful activity done for criminal purposes? Not in this case, not in most cases. And it's as stupid as prosecuting people for illegal shoe laces and rubber washers.
So perhaps that is the difference in our perspectives on this issue.
You need to read the plea and or indictment regarding the OKO sights. They are lawful to import as long as you follow the import regulations.
I believe you are referring to the severity/seriousness of the crime committed when you refer to willfulness. Knowingly committing a crime, regardless of how severe that crime is, to me is willful.
I can agree with you regarding the severity of the crimes committed.
As to the Az gunsmiths you refer to, I will not have any sympathy for them if caught. They too are willfully committing a crime. It may not be a severe/serious crime, but a criminal act none the less.
I do believe that the laws making these items unlawful should be repealed.
Again, the CA guy had a valid state ID that listed an AZ address. If anyone is guilty of anything it is the state of AZ for issuing a state ID to a non resident.
FFLs are not detectives. They rely on state IDs and NICS to tell them who is approved and non approved for weapons transfers. That the guy worked out an arrangement for local storage has nothing to do with anything.
The guy from CA fraudulently obtained the AZ state ID even though it was a real ID . The owner of cav arms also was enabling this situation by storing weapons for the guy from CA, and knowing fully well that the guy from CA was not an AZ resident.
For whatever reason, there are a lot of AZ dealers who think they can thumb their nose at ATF.
I don't get it... They have profitable businesses... but they insist on doing retarded stuff to draw the ATF into their shit.
Like my buddy says... "typical Arizona fly by night gun company".
Working in an AZ FFL has opened my eyes to some really screwy shit on both sides of the counter.
Mark, you don't have to be fly by night to get caught up in ATF BS.
Chris
Mark, you don't have to be fly by night to get caught up in ATF BS.
True.. but there's just a monkey ass culture here in AZ. There's legit dealers all around... but there's been a lot of numb nuts who've done really dumb stuff and crashed what appeared to be profitable businesses.
The guy from CA fraudulently obtained the AZ state ID even though it was a real ID . The owner of cav arms also was enabling this situation by storing weapons for the guy from CA, and knowing fully well that the guy from CA was not an AZ resident.
So it sounds like the CA guy was a criminal. I don't think it is a crime to store guns. That is the key issue. Cav Arms knows only what they are told (according to some of my customers I am a supplier to Navy SEALs), FFLs rely upon state IDs and NICS checks to sort out who is who.
If the guy fraudulently obtained a state ID then "he" and the state of AZ are to blame. Perhaps if it wasn't so easy for the average illegal from Mexico to get a state ID this never would have been an issue in the first place.
But more importantly, if he had no legal AZ residence, how did he pass a NICS check? FFLs rely on these things (not intuition or customer stories) to determine who they may transfer guns to. I can only imagine the shitstorm that would end up on TOS if somebody had posted "Bought a gun, passed NICS and those ****ers from Cav Arms wouldn't complete the transaction."
At any rate, I really don't feel like retrying the Cav Arms case. People have already decided what they believe and I doubt I'm going to change anything. There is also a LOT I can't say about it so it would be pointless to try and change anyone's mind.
I don't think it is a crime to store guns. That is the key issue.
No it isn't the key issue.
The CA guy had a fake AZ residency with one of cav arms buddies and the owner of cav arms knew about it the whole time and still sold him guns anyway.
Him storing them for him was just icing on the cake for the ATF.
No it isn't the key issue.
The CA guy had a fake AZ residency with one of cav arms buddies and the owner of cav arms knew about it the whole time and still sold him guns anyway.
Him storing them for him was just icing on the cake for the ATF.
If he was issued a state ID it sounds like valid residency to me. The fact that he didn't pay rent doesn't mean he didn't have a valid AZ ID.
Also the owners of Cav Arms shouldn't have to be a detective and start an investigation of who is a legal roommate or not. He relies upon state IDs and NICS to tell him if he is allowed to complete a transaction.
Again, state of AZ and NICS is at fault if there wasn't legal residency.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.