View Full Version : 2nd 1911, Which Colt to get?
beschatten
08-12-12, 14:30
Thread title says it all.
My first 1911 was a bit of an introduction to the firearm itself. Bought a 1911 R1 Enhanced.
Now that I know I like (love) it, I would like my next 1911 to be something I work on and make a project out of it. Literally, other than the frame itself, I want all components swapped out; reliability job, trigger job, ect. I would probably have a reputable gunsmith do the things I cannot.
Which model would give me the greatest flexibility with the firearm? I'm thinking the Rail model since it has a rail built into the frame, but the Special Combat is appealing because of the .38 caliber (38 Special I'm assuming). 1991 and 1970's series is appealing too.
Thoughts?
Do you want the current version of the internals (supposedly a safety issue) or do you want internals true to John Browning's original design?
Thread title says it all.
My first 1911 was a bit of an introduction to the firearm itself. Bought a 1911 R1 Enhanced.
Now that I know I like (love) it, I would like my next 1911 to be something I work on and make a project out of it. Literally, other than the frame itself, I want all components swapped out; reliability job, trigger job, ect. I would probably have a reputable gunsmith do the things I cannot.
Which model would give me the greatest flexibility with the firearm? I'm thinking the Rail model since it has a rail built into the frame, but the Special Combat is appealing because of the .38 caliber (38 Special I'm assuming). 1991 and 1970's series is appealing too.
Thoughts?
None of that makes any sense to me at all.
Just buy a well used 1911 and send it to Roger's Precision or something like that.
Colt Sp. Combat's are Colt's top tier 1911's....you don't buy those to "rebuild" them.
1911's in .38 are chambered in .38super. There is such a thing as a .38 special wadcutter 1911.
You can also buy frames from Caspian, or frames and slides already mated to each other, and buy all the parts needed to build a 1911.
fallenangelhim
08-12-12, 17:23
buy a Philippines made Rock Island Armory 1911 GI model for about $400 and you can tinker with it all you want.
I had one a while back. they work and are reliable, they are just basic no grills 1911s.
Since you wanna work on it, a series 70. Get it with a blued finish so that you can re-blue, parkerize, or have it Ion-Bonded.
I really like the Wiley Clap Talo Edition....Series 70 with a beaver tail safety and commander hammer and novak sights.
HackerF15E
08-12-12, 20:37
A used pre 80-series Commander or Combat Commander is my recommendation.
The 4.25" barrel IMHO is the perfect 1911 length. Clears the holster just a little faster and is balanced a little better for my tastes.
Pure sex, IMHO:
http://iwantthatknife.com/Gallery/albums/EBR/commander_3.jpg
Since you are planning on replacing all the internals anyway, get a used 1970s pistol -- most of which are in a bare GI config -- and rock on. As another poster suggested, send it off to one of the customizers and get new sights and whatever bells and whistles you personally want.
That being said, on the topic of (used?) base guns to make a custom build from (deviating from your Colt's thread title...), you can do no better than the Springfield GI (the ones with the serial numbers beginning in WW). The Rock Island GI is a nice one, too, although there were some pistolsmiths who, at least in the past, were playing the brand snob game and would not work on them. Perhaps since they've gone to forged slides, those smiths have changed their tune.
A Springfield Mil-Spec. And I say that after owning Colt's, Ed Brown's, Etc.
Strider5.56
08-12-12, 22:47
Springfield Armory 1911s with the slides made by Taurus in Brazil?.........Yeah that just happened. I won't buy a Springfield anymore.
HackerF15E
08-13-12, 05:57
Springfield Armory 1911s with the slides made by Taurus in Brazil?.........Yeah that just happened. I won't buy a Springfield anymore.
They're made by Imbel in Brazil -- not related to Taurus in any way outside of being located in the same country -- and they don't just make "the slides" on most of Springfield's pistols.
Is your objection to Springfield the fact that parts are made in Brazil, or your thought that they were made by Taurus, which has occasionally had issues with their quality control?
I love my Rail Gun, I would recommend one.
wetidlerjr
08-13-12, 12:16
Get a used Colt (as already suggested) to do all you want unless, of course, you have more money than sense. Buying a new SCG or Rail Gun and replacing most of the parts would just be a waste but it's YOUR money. :D
A used pre 80-series Commander or Combat Commander is my recommendation.
The 4.25" barrel IMHO is the perfect 1911 length. Clears the holster just a little faster and is balanced a little better for my tastes.
Pure sex, IMHO:
http://iwantthatknife.com/Gallery/albums/EBR/commander_3.jpg
Since you are planning on replacing all the internals anyway, get a used 1970s pistol -- most of which are in a bare GI config -- and rock on. As another poster suggested, send it off to one of the customizers and get new sights and whatever bells and whistles you personally want.
That being said, on the topic of (used?) base guns to make a custom build from (deviating from your Colt's thread title...), you can do no better than the Springfield GI (the ones with the serial numbers beginning in WW). The Rock Island GI is a nice one, too, although there were some pistolsmiths who, at least in the past, were playing the brand snob game and would not work on them. Perhaps since they've gone to forged slides, those smiths have changed their tune.
Cant go wrong with a combat commander. Love mine. Have made a few upgrades to it.
The OP was confusing to me as well. Is this a request for advice on a NEW gun that will be gutted and upgraded? Or a project gun? If its a project gun, which parts are being kept? Maybe just a slide and a frame is all you need.
Thoughts?
If you really want to tear the pistol apart and replace everything but the frame and turn it into a tinker "project" just start with a Caspian frame and slide and build it.
Colt Commander XSE , decent out of the box & good value for the $$$ Make sure you get a beavertail & not the duckbill. Mine came with a duckbill and Colt said "You're SOL" I ended up ordering the S&A.
HackerF15E
08-15-12, 06:51
Make sure you get a beavertail & not the duckbill..
What problem were you having with the duck-bill tang that was solved by a beavertail?
More importantly, not everyone has a functional need for a beavertail grip safety.
I have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years and never had "hammer bite", so on my pistols they're a needless feature. I much prefer the smaller tang (note that the one on the Commander pictured above has an even smaller grip safety tang than a typical spur-hammer model).
Although hammer bite is a legitimate issue for some folks, it's very far from being everyone's problem (let's remember how many decades millions of 1911s were use by Uncle Sam without 'em). Their popularity in the last 20 years has more to do with looks than actual functional requirement, and consequently there are a lot of 'new' 1911 shooters that think they need it, but not sure what they need it for.
FWIW, this is the same as full-length guide rods, forward cocking/press-check serrations, flat-vs-arched mainspring housings, memory bumps on grip safetys, etc. Lots of features that are great solutions for sometimes non-existent problems.
So, if you get a pistol that has a beavertail, then good. But if you have a pistol that does NOT have one, then there's not a reason to get one unless you're actually having issues with hammer bite.
El Pistolero
08-15-12, 09:13
Get a used series 70 for a 5-inch or a Commander. I prefer the Commander as it's just the perfect size IMO. A Colt will have more value if you have all the work professionally done. If you want to tinker and not worry about screwing something up get an RIA or Cimarron or other imported GI-style.
My wife bought me an XSE Commander as a wedding gift and I love it. I wanted an XSE because I didn't want to do a bunch of work hot-rodding it. The only things I've done to it is replace the duckbill grip safety with a Wilson beavertail and FLGR with short guide rod. And a trigger job by a great pistolsmith.
I like the XSE so much I'm completely sold on Colts. My next 1911 will be an XSE Rail Gun.
Also, beavertail grip safeties are not only to protect against hammer bite. They also help control recoil/muzzle flip. It's a very welcome feature on my LW Commander, and made a noticeable difference when I switched from duckbill to beavertail.
with the current crop of Colts (rail gun etc) there would be very little that needs to be done to them to make them great shooters. As hacker mentioned, many even without work will work fine as is. My philosophy is if it works leave it alone. I don't get bite, so beavertails are useless to me. I don't much find any of the current mods to be of much use to me. Other than replacing the tiny GI type sights everything else works just fine for me.
To answer your question a little more, if you plan to hack on the gun yourself, get a cheap foreign made 1911 like the rock island or springfield. They are good solid value guns you won't hurt the value of modifying. With a Colt (with most Colts near or above a grand) as soon as you modify it even if done correctly it will dECREASE the value. Mods on a 1911 add value only if they come from a skilled gunsmith with documentation supporting the mods.
Just went through exactly what you're going through right now.
Got a R1 about a year ago. It's a fine gun and a good shooter but I can't really explain it, I guess I'm just a brand whore but I had to have a Colt government model, like my dad's.
I ended up going going with a Colt Series 70 reissue, found one NIB on gunsamerica.com for 939.99 with 20 dollar shipping.
I really love this gun, it shot great right out of the box, and it feeds hollow points. I couldn't be happier with my purchase.
brickboy240
08-23-12, 15:11
I have the same Combat Commander as Hacker posted above, except mine is in satin nickle.
Yep...the older Combat Commander is a sweet shooter.
However, I recently handled a stainless NRM Series 70 Govt. Model and man...that is the cat's ass and I am saving like mad to get one. Old school cool with the plus of being stainless steel.
-brickboy240
beschatten
08-24-12, 00:57
After reading the posts, I think I'll have to purchase two 1911's within the next few months, one, a project from scratch with a caspian frame and the next one i get, a colt.
after doing some research i'm completely sold on the idea of a 4.25 inch barrel.. i can't seem to find the XSE rail colt on their website though since that would be ideal...
i can't believe i missed the XSE while looking up colts
What problem were you having with the duck-bill tang that was solved by a beavertail?
More importantly, not everyone has a functional need for a beavertail grip safety.
I have been shooting 1911s for over 30 years and never had "hammer bite", so on my pistols they're a needless feature. I much prefer the smaller tang (note that the one on the Commander pictured above has an even smaller grip safety tang than a typical spur-hammer model).
Although hammer bite is a legitimate issue for some folks, it's very far from being everyone's problem (let's remember how many decades millions of 1911s were use by Uncle Sam without 'em). Their popularity in the last 20 years has more to do with looks than actual functional requirement, and consequently there are a lot of 'new' 1911 shooters that think they need it, but not sure what they need it for.
FWIW, this is the same as full-length guide rods, forward cocking/press-check serrations, flat-vs-arched mainspring housings, memory bumps on grip safetys, etc. Lots of features that are great solutions for sometimes non-existent problems.
So, if you get a pistol that has a beavertail, then good. But if you have a pistol that does NOT have one, then there's not a reason to get one unless you're actually having issues with hammer bite.
#1 Thanks for your in depth reply.
#2 Are you familiar with the Colt XSE?
Here's the thing, the Colt XSE comes with either of 2 grip safeties.
You either get the "Duckbill"
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/HardShell/RWB%20-%20Pistols/CentColt1911left.jpg
Which makes it impossible to get a high grip without the "duckbill" eating into your hand.
Or you get the S&A "Beavertail" which allows you to shoot with a high grip and not get your hand chewed up after a couple of boxes downrange.
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac132/legion599/1911XSEA20110728_631.jpg
It is impossible to get "Hammer Bite" with either of them. I'm basically fixing a known design flaw of my particular 1911, it has nothing to do with aesthetics, or what "New 1911 shooters think they need". The issue I had was the fact that if you order the gun, you don't get to pick which grip safety you get.
So to answer your question of
"What problem were you having with the duck-bill tang that was solved by a beavertail?"
I can actually run my pistol all day without adjusting my grip between shots and my hand being rubbed raw.
After reading the posts, I think I'll have to purchase two 1911's within the next few months, one, a project from scratch with a caspian frame and the next one i get, a colt.
after doing some research i'm completely sold on the idea of a 4.25 inch barrel.. i can't seem to find the XSE rail colt on their website though since that would be ideal...
i can't believe i missed the XSE while looking up colts
Awesome, for me the commander was the perfect size and had everything that I needed out of the box... If you do end up going with the XSE , you won't regret it!
If you plan on carrying it, you might want to send it to a smith and get it dehorned. I'm used to it by now but the front of the slide chewed about 1/16 out of the leather in my supertuck & the front cocking serrations even shaved a bit off of the kydex side.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-02-12, 03:01
The Colt to get is the full sized Wiley clapp. It is already done, with the possible exception of a dehorning.
The Colt to get is the full sized Wiley clapp. It is already done, with the possible exception of a dehorning.
The WC is a great 1911, personally I couldn't justify the extra $500 over the XSE, but I'm sure plenty of people can!
HackerF15E
09-02-12, 09:33
So to answer your question of
"What problem were you having with the duck-bill tang that was solved by a beavertail?"
I can actually run my pistol all day without adjusting my grip between shots and my hand being rubbed raw.
That's a perfectly legitimate reason.
I'd avoid any Colt 1911 made after about 1990.
wetidlerjr
09-02-12, 10:40
I'd avoid any Colt 1911 made after about 1990.
Good idea! That will leave more for me. :D
HackerF15E
09-02-12, 10:55
I'd avoid any Colt 1911 made after about 1990.
You're correct that there were definitely some quality control issues with some 1990s and 2000s Colts. The offset spring tunnels issue comes to mind offhand.
That being said, so long as you're able to physically inspect anything before buying, you can avoid those issues.
I think the 1991s, while extremely ugly in stock condition (especially the parkerized original rollmark models...yech), make excellent base pistols, especially if guys want to customize.
There was nothing magical about earlier Colts, especially the 1970s guns that seem to have gained near mythical status. I have a 1970s Combat Commander that looks like it was made on a day when the regular Colt workers were home enjoying a holiday weekend and a bunch on untrained monkeys opened up the Colt Factory and churned out a few pistols just for fun. The machining sucks complete ass on it.
Runs great, though -- some swipes of stones and files in the right places, and it is reliable as anything else I've ever seen.
I would have easily dropped $500 on modifying a GI model Colt with the minimum things such as upgraded sights and fitting a beavertail with a bobbed hammer or commander hammer. And that was with a buddy doing any machining and fitting I wanted. I jumped on the Wiley Clapp while it was available. So far so good, and it has the most features and least compromises I could have asked for. It was worth the additional cost for the factory front strap checkering, beveled mag well, and novak sights.
Nytcrawler93
09-05-12, 21:47
For the money, it is hard to beat the Colt Rail Gun. I have been EXTREMELY pleased.
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