View Full Version : Thinking of selling my M&P9
It has proven to be reliable (at least through 300+rds) accurate and a natural pointer (at least for me). But I've gotten so accustomed to the DA/SA trigger on Sig's and HK's that I'm no longer at ease with the M&P trigger (or the Glock). I feel safer, faster, and more accurate with both Sig's and HK's.
Another reason to sell is to aquire a LMT M4, probably will order the complete upper and then the lower a short time later (look out Grant). My wife and I still have 5 other handguns for defense and pratice so I won't be left short for CCW, but we do feel a stronger need for another M4 (one for her, one for me). Maybe next year I can aquire a HK USPc 9, mags and holster's should interchange with my P2000 and be maybe $100 cheaper.
Should I try to sell here or locally? I know I must ship to a FFL holder but how do I file it in my home?
You should wait until after April or the best you'll be able to do is $300. Currently a standard M&P9 can be purchased for $425-$450 shipped plus 2 free mags and a $50 rebate.
Now is not a good time to sell an M&P9/40 IMO.
But I've gotten so accustomed to the DA/SA trigger on Sig's and HK's that I'm no longer at ease with the M&P trigger (or the Glock). I feel safer, faster, and more accurate with both Sig's and HK's.
No offense intended, but that's just odd and quite contrary to what most people prefer when their experience with handguns increases.
No offense intended, but that's just odd and quite contrary to what most people prefer when their experience with handguns increases.
+1
Explain to me how having the first trigger pull heavy benefits anyone in anyway. If you don't feel comfortable using a glock or something similar or somethng with a lighter trigger you don't really dont belong carrying any handgun IMHO.
No offense intended, but that's just odd and quite contrary to what most people prefer when their experience with handguns increases.
Explain to me how having the first trigger pull heavy benefits anyone in anyway. If you don't feel comfortable using a glock or something similar or somethng with a lighter trigger you don't really dont belong carrying any handgun IMHO.
Come on guys, give the guy a break. Like you said Lumpy, it may feel better with more experience, but he's just saying that he feels better with the DA/SA guns right now. In a time of crisis, you want the gun that you're most familiar with anyways. Maybe jhs doesn't want to deal with practicing with it? I think his statement was not intended to state whether one system is better than the other, just that he personally prefers DA/SA types of pistols.
Personally, if I pull the trigger and it goes bang, I'm fine with it. ;)
Wow, where to begin,
Actually I've got years of experience with 1911's and Glocks, look at my reply on the recent thread about 1911's where I listed the 1911's I've owned. I've owned 15 different Glocks but none in the past several years. My problems with Glocks: I had two G19's that gave horribly un-reliable performance altough I had 10 other G19's that were just fine. I had one G17 that shot about 6" left of POI at 10 yards. Three other G17's were just fine as was a G26. The Glock is a little harder to make precise shots with due to it's trigger, a competition trigger is a big help but the biggest complaint about Glock is it's grip angle. I can shoot a Glock just fine if I shoot nothing but Glocks, so it really comes down to this, do I shoot nothing but Glocks the rest of my life or shoot any other brand that I find to my liking.
brminpin,
Thanks for the post, glad to know there is some reasonable and rationale people here.
Lumpy,
I took no offense the way you put your question, I feel the Sig and HK line have given me a more reliable design and I'm more than willing to master the DA trigger to reap this benefit. Yes it was more work and took more pratice to gain this confidence but I feel it was worth it. I worked for a nationwide security company a while back and took the state handgun competion with DA Smith's they then issued. My friend and ex-Navy Seal would have taken second had he chose to compete.
dugan84,
I've carried a handgun professionaly, personally and in competition for more than 20 years now and would guess to say have more experience than you. Ever here of Jerry Miculek. If I take your post the way it read then your truly wrong, I don't have to explain a DAMN thing to you!!!!!
Explain to me how having the first trigger pull heavy benefits anyone in anyway. If you don't feel comfortable using a glock or something similar or somethng with a lighter trigger you don't really dont belong carrying any handgun IMHO.
That's a ridiculous attitude. What if I said, "if you don't feel comfortable with a 4gr free pistol trigger or something lighter you don't really belong carrying any handgun" instead?
If you don't think the heavier and, more importantly, longer trigger stroke of the first DA shot provides additional protection against certain types of ADs, then you're fooling yourself. That longer & heavier trigger pull means you are giving your finger and your brain more feedback and more immediate feedback over a longer period of time before you make that unplanned loud noise.
Is a DA trigger a panacea? Of course not. But if someone is more comfortable with it, it's absolutely no one else's place to question his general capability with a pistol.
I carried and shot DA guns for about ten years, beat many Glock/1911 people in competition, and never felt handicapped.
Also, since you asked, I can tell you one thing that makes a DA gun safer than a striker-fired gun: you can press your thumb down on the hammer of a DA pistol as you holster, making it essentially impossible to AD even if your trigger finger, coat tail, holster retention strap, etc. gets in the trigger guard ... all of which problems have certainly caused ADs in Glocks. The mechanical leverage you can deliver with your thumb increases as you press the gun down harder, so the hammer just can't move. Even if you could press harder with your hand than your thumb (they're attached ... hello!) you'd still feel the hammer move and would, again, have tactile feedback that an unplanned loud noise was in your immediate future unless you stop what you're doing.
There's also the fact that many people find a long, smooth trigger pull equates with greater accuracy than the short, crisp triggers so many people prefer for action shooting. Quite a few people who shoot TDA guns will tell you that they're actually more accurate with the DA stroke than the SA stroke. I'm happy to get into the details and reasons why if you'd like to discuss it further.
Most of the people who have such a negative opinion of TDA guns have little to no real experience with them. I attended a private group class from a very well-known instructor a few years ago with some pretty squared away shooters (including Ernest Langdon, Gordon Carrell, and George Harris). Five total students in the class, all shooting either SIG or Beretta TDA guns. The first "lesson" from the instructor was to explain how the first DA shot was too hard to shoot well and many of his students (including some people I've trained with who had never heard this before) just purposely throw the shot to get into the fight faster with the SA stroke. There are few things in life as amusing as watching Ernest Langdon explain to a world-class shooter that um, no, if you know what you're doing shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all. We then went three days shooting over 3,600 rounds apiece proving that shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all.
Patrick Aherne
01-31-08, 00:14
That's a ridiculous attitude. What if I said, "if you don't feel comfortable with a 4gr free pistol trigger or something lighter you don't really belong carrying any handgun" instead?
If you don't think the heavier and, more importantly, longer trigger stroke of the first DA shot provides additional protection against certain types of ADs, then you're fooling yourself. That longer & heavier trigger pull means you are giving your finger and your brain more feedback and more immediate feedback over a longer period of time before you make that unplanned loud noise.
Is a DA trigger a panacea? Of course not. But if someone is more comfortable with it, it's absolutely no one else's place to question his general capability with a pistol.
I carried and shot DA guns for about ten years, beat many Glock/1911 people in competition, and never felt handicapped.
Also, since you asked, I can tell you one thing that makes a DA gun safer than a striker-fired gun: you can press your thumb down on the hammer of a DA pistol as you holster, making it essentially impossible to AD even if your trigger finger, coat tail, holster retention strap, etc. gets in the trigger guard ... all of which problems have certainly caused ADs in Glocks. The mechanical leverage you can deliver with your thumb increases as you press the gun down harder, so the hammer just can't move. Even if you could press harder with your hand than your thumb (they're attached ... hello!) you'd still feel the hammer move and would, again, have tactile feedback that an unplanned loud noise was in your immediate future unless you stop what you're doing.
There's also the fact that many people find a long, smooth trigger pull equates with greater accuracy than the short, crisp triggers so many people prefer for action shooting. Quite a few people who shoot TDA guns will tell you that they're actually more accurate with the DA stroke than the SA stroke. I'm happy to get into the details and reasons why if you'd like to discuss it further.
Most of the people who have such a negative opinion of TDA guns have little to no real experience with them. I attended a private group class from a very well-known instructor a few years ago with some pretty squared away shooters (including Ernest Langdon, Gordon Carrell, and George Harris). Five total students in the class, all shooting either SIG or Beretta TDA guns. The first "lesson" from the instructor was to explain how the first DA shot was too hard to shoot well and many of his students (including some people I've trained with who had never heard this before) just purposely throw the shot to get into the fight faster with the SA stroke. There are few things in life as amusing as watching Ernest Langdon explain to a world-class shooter that um, no, if you know what you're doing shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all. We then went three days shooting over 3,600 rounds apiece proving that shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all.
I am not Ernest Langdon. What Ernest Langdon can do is immaterial to what most folks can do. I care not that you beat a bunch of folks with 1911s and Glocks in competions.
I am a deady mo-fo with a revolver. I suck with a DA/SA pistol. I have tried, hard, to make the DA/SA pistol work for me. I have told myself that I will not insult people on the internet. My personal maxim is: if I would not say something while sitting next to you on a bar stool, I will not type it on the internet. Therefore, know that you may be a nice guy, a decent instructor and a genuine swell, so do not take umbrage when I say that you are as full of sh!t as a Christmas goose.
Light, crisp, consistent trigger actions are easier to use and train folks to use, period. SOME people can be trained to use DA/SA triggers effectively, but most folks have trouble with them and shoot better with consistent trigger pulls.
If shooting 3600 rounds in a few days, you probably can train someone to competence with the DA/SA action, however, I would bet that they would be more effective, faster with a single action or safe-action trigger pull.
Light, crisp, consistent trigger actions are easier to use and train folks to use, period.
That depends completely on what your criteria are and what you're training them to do when you say "use."
SOME people can be trained to use DA/SA triggers effectively, but most folks have trouble with them and shoot better with consistent trigger pulls.
Three of the best trained federal law enforcement agencies (Federal Air Marshals, US Secret Service, and Diplomatic Security) would argue that point. Again, just because someone has trouble with it or lacks the experience to teach it doesn't mean it's bad.
It is different. As I said, Christmas geese notwithstanding, there are plenty of well respected instructors who simply don't have the dedicated time with a TDA pistol to teach it well.
If shooting 3600 rounds in a few days, you probably can train someone to competence with the DA/SA action, however, I would bet that they would be more effective, faster with a single action or safe-action trigger pull.
None of the people in that class were starting from incompetence. :cool:
So let's parse your comment.
They would be more effective? Define that. If you're suggesting that there would be a significant enough difference in skill level and performance that it would likely change the outcome of a fight, I challenge you to prove it. I've trained complete beginners and experienced shooters, and in ten years I've found without doubt that it is the shooter & instructor, not the gun which determines how much a student learns and how skilled he becomes.
They would be faster? How is a SFA or SA gun faster? Certainly the first shot can't be faster, since they'll both break at the same moment (as the arms reach full extension). Follow-up shot speed is going to be about visual speed and recoil management first, trigger reset second ... none of those things have anything to do with a DA first shot.
A stock SIG, for example, with their "Short Reset Trigger" will have both a shorter reset and a lighter trigger pull for all shots but the first compared to a standard ("5.5#") Glock. So how, exactly, will it be slower? How will it be less effective?
I'm not dumping on SFA or SA guns. I carry a Smith M&P, which is obviously a striker fired gun. But for someone to suggest that somehow a TDA pistol is a hindrance for a properly trained person is just silly.
Nonetheless, I do agree that TDA guns are on the way out. Plenty of people share your opinion and perception, and I wouldn't be surprised if some flagship TDA agencies/units switch to SFA or DAO guns over the next year or two.
edited to add: I've never had goose for Christmas, and if they're served full of fecal matter it might explain why some folks seem so cranky. Mom always made a tenderloin at our house. :cool:
Todd,
Out of curiosity what did you carry before the M&P?
556: I worked for SIG for five years, and carried various SIG pistols during that time, both TDA and DAK (though much more the TDA, which I prefer) in 9mm, 357 SIG, and .45 Auto. Before that I was working at Beretta and carried various 92-series pistols, all 'G' (decocker-only TDA) models.
Again, I'm certainly not advocating the TDA over SFA, SAO, or DAO. Each has its plusses and minuses. Something I wrote (half in jest) for my site a few months ago:
Actions in action
One day a hundred or so years ago, a man built the first semiautomatic pistol. It was an ingenious thing, a gun that could load itself and fire many rounds from a single magazine. He made it so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.
Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the manual safety was created, so that there was a way to prevent one from using the short and light trigger except when absolutely intended.
Then someone said, whoa brother, sometimes I forget to take the safety off and I cannot fire my gun, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action pistol was created, so that one could fire one’s pistol without dealing with a pesky safety while still having a reasonably hard time of making loud noises unintentionally.
Then someone said, whoa brother, it is hard to learn two different trigger pulls and often I forget to decock my pistol before holstering, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action only was created, so that one could enjoy the safety of a long heavy trigger pull every time and thus avoid ventilating one’s own leg.
Then someone said, whoa brother, your trigger pull is too long and too heavy and I cannot hit anything I shoot at, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the striker-fired pistol was created, so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.
Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally …
556: I worked for SIG for five years, and carried various SIG pistols during that time, both TDA and DAK (though much more the TDA, which I prefer) in 9mm, 357 SIG, and .45 Auto. Before that I was working at Beretta and carried various 92-series pistols, all 'G' (decocker-only TDA) models.
Again, I'm certainly not advocating the TDA over SFA, SAO, or DAO. Each has its plusses and minuses. Something I wrote (half in jest) for my site a few months ago:
Actions in action
One day a hundred or so years ago, a man built the first semiautomatic pistol. It was an ingenious thing, a gun that could load itself and fire many rounds from a single magazine. He made it so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.
Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the manual safety was created, so that there was a way to prevent one from using the short and light trigger except when absolutely intended.
Then someone said, whoa brother, sometimes I forget to take the safety off and I cannot fire my gun, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action pistol was created, so that one could fire one’s pistol without dealing with a pesky safety while still having a reasonably hard time of making loud noises unintentionally.
Then someone said, whoa brother, it is hard to learn two different trigger pulls and often I forget to decock my pistol before holstering, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action only was created, so that one could enjoy the safety of a long heavy trigger pull every time and thus avoid ventilating one’s own leg.
Then someone said, whoa brother, your trigger pull is too long and too heavy and I cannot hit anything I shoot at, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the striker-fired pistol was created, so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.
Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally …
This has to be one of the coolest things I've read in a long time....awesome work!
10-4 Todd;
The safety is between the ears.....
Then again, who of us here have NEVER had an AD/UD or ND........
I don't see any hands....:D
I carry a SAO 90% of the time and a wheel gun the other......can shoot both actions just as well.
I recently pick up a M&P and can shoot it just fine also.....but just can't seem to give up my 1911 for serious stuff.
Robb Jensen
01-31-08, 07:26
Good info Todd. I've used the below saying a little for the last few years when people complain to me that this or that handgun isn't accurate.
"The lack of accuracy is almost always a software problem and not a problem with the hardware. Different hardware isn't going to make up for a lack of skill."---Robb Jensen
John_Wayne777
01-31-08, 07:51
There are few things in life as amusing as watching Ernest Langdon explain to a world-class shooter that um, no, if you know what you're doing shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all. We then went three days shooting over 3,600 rounds apiece proving that shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all.
1. Ernie is the man. He worked up my Beretta 92.
2. While I think the DA/SA transition is overblown by a lot of people, there is some validity to the gripes about it. For the last couple of years I've done the vast majority of my handgun shooting with a 1911, and in the last year my M&P. When my M&P's front sight crapped out on me in the Low Light class in November I resorted to using my Langdon Tactical Technologies customized Beretta 92 because the night sights on it were functional.
I found myself having sucky-first-shot-itis with my 92...something I had never experienced before. I had to dedicate more mental attention to trigger control for a while. Thanks to lots of training rounds on my Berettas and a fantastic trigger job by Mr. Langdon that didn't last too long, and I was soon using my 92 naturally. On the second night of the LL course we had to shoot some steel and I zipped through a number of targets lickety split without a single clock cycle of brain power dedicated to pulling the trigger right.
Still, I was surprised that I struggled a bit since most of my handgun training has been done with DA/SA guns.
Now I said all of that to lay the background to presenting JW777's Unified Theory of Trigger Control:
If somebody is used to shooting a semi-auto with a "short" trigger pull such as the Glock, the M&P, the 1911, etc they may well find that the DA/SA transition hurts their accuracy. This, of course, can be corrected by proper training and practice with the DA/SA weapon.
It seems to me there are lots of guys out there who are used to shooting Glocks (Yuk!!). All the muscle memory they have built up from shooting the combat tupperware isn't going to take to the DA trigger right off the bat. Some may even require a lot of training to program their brains properly.
While I would agree with anyone that Mr. Langdon's abilities are exceptional, mine certainly aren't (Robb can testify to this...he was on the line at Blackwater when I put a round in the berm with the DA pull on a Sig P220 I was using in training.....Instructor:"Wow...that was the fastest miss I have ever seen. Good job.") ....thus if I can get to the point where DA/SA is no longer a problem I would argue that ANYONE can.
I tell you, when we had the DAO Smith's, my trigger control was outstanding. Talk about working a trigger w/o influencing the gun!
Gave my alot of respect for the revolver shooters.
In all seriousness, I think it would help alot of people.
They would be more effective? Define that. If you're suggesting that there would be a significant enough difference in skill level and performance that it would likely change the outcome of a fight, I challenge you to prove it. I've trained complete beginners and experienced shooters, and in ten years I've found without doubt that it is the shooter & instructor, not the gun which determines how much a student learns and how skilled he becomes.
I never felt it mattered in real world shoots. We had them with the DOA's and we actually had better hits.(not bragging about teaching the ones involved though) Quality over quantity.
Agreed 100% with what you guys are saying.
Rich Verdi (now at SIG Academy) and I taught a class at West Point last year. Rich spent his entire law enforcement career using DA guns and is one of the most accomplished LE pistol shooters I know. However, he'd been using a M&P for a while and that had been where all his practice had gone. He started the class carrying a tuned up Beretta, but he wasn't happy with his performance on his first demo because he had become "unaccustomed" to the TDA trigger stroke. He switched back to the M&P for the rest of the class.
Months later, Rich decided to devote his efforts to SIG pistols and I imagine he now shoots them better than he's ever shot anything.
I've put literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through TDA guns and consider them an outstanding choice for someone who devotes time to learning it. Having said that, after 24k rounds of dedicated practice through my M&P, there's no question that I'd sound like a monkey on a typewriter if I tried to shoot a TDA Beretta or SIG at top speed right now.
Which was sort of my point from the beginning. It's much more a matter of familiarity and training, and much less a matter of the gun's action, which determines whether a pistol is workable or not.
Lumpy,
I took no offense the way you put your question, I feel the Sig and HK line have given me a more reliable design and I'm more than willing to master the DA trigger to reap this benefit. Yes it was more work and took more pratice to gain this confidence but I feel it was worth it.
I'm glad you didn't because I wasn't intending to impune your abilities or your choice. This is a discussion board, thus we DISCUSS things. On other forums you have 10 pages threads of people posting a one sentence opinion (or better yet a bunch of friggin +1's) with no explaination as to what or why the person has that opinion. You explained your position quite clearly. If you feel most comfortable with the DA/SA style gun and shoot it well, then brother I support your choice.
I myself started out with single actions and then went with Sigs for a very long time. My P226 still sits in my safe after all these years because I can't bring myself to part with it yet for sentimental reasons. That said, over the years, competition, training and my employers took me back to the single action/striker fired platform. I no longer shoot or carry DA/SA pistols, not because I couldn't master the trigger system, but because decocking was no longer part of my training regiment and as such, I chose to keep it simple on myself. I can shoot a DA/SA just fine. Single action/striker fired pistols however have a slightly faster first round capability for me (yes, I own a timer). That combined with the fact that SA guns usually have a lower bore-axis results in faster recovery between shots for ME.
We're I to be handed a DA/SA pistol and told "this is what you will use," I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
Single action/striker fired pistols however have a slightly faster first round capability for me (yes, I own a timer).
Proper press-outs definitely require a bit more training to master with a TDA than a SAO or SFA. Having said that, I'm sure if you wanted to you could devote the time to your SIG and get back into the habit with minimal effort. (in your case, that effort would seem wasted, and I'm not suggesting you should try)
That combined with the fact that SA guns usually have a lower bore-axis results in faster recovery between shots for ME.
DING DING DING! So few people understand that there are multiple factors (mechanical & physiological) which affect their shooting speed. And those factors influence different people differently depending on skill, build, hand size, etc. All guns are square pegs, and all people are round holes. Some are just bigger holes than others. :cool:
Oops...meant SA's usually have a lower bore-axis. Corrected.
Goes to show what outstanding powers of observation I don't have. :cool: I knew what you meant and completely missed the typo. Changed it in my quote, too.
It's a good day when someone knows what the hell Im talking about even when I don't type it correctly :cool:
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