View Full Version : Beretta 92 and CX4 in 10mm Petition on Facebook
For those of you who use Facebook and would be interested in seeing a 10mm Beretta 92 or CX4 in the future go check out the link below.
All you have to do it "Like" it.
I don't know if Beretta will take notice or not but I did get it off of their official FB page so who knows.
I really like the idea of a 10mm model 92, lets see if we can get a little momentum behind this!
https://www.facebook.com/BerettaMakeA10mmCx4And92SeriesPetition
Is it even possible to chamber a 92 in 10mm? I guess the CX4 is possibly since they have a .45 ACP version, durability is anyone's guess.
They would have to redesign the whole pistol to accept a 10mm. The 96 doesn't have a great reputation for durability in .40, and the 10mm is too long for the 92/96 frame.
ChicagoTex
08-15-12, 15:50
The 92 can't hack a 10mm, the CX4 with it's blowback action would be very unlikely to. Moreover, since Beretta has never, ever made a 10mm they'd have to manufacture brand-new magazines only usable in the CX4 (which has frankly been a poor seller).
Waste of time. You might as well make a petition to build a hotel on the moon tomorrow.
I have an old article (late 1980s/early 1990s) from Shooting Times which showed Taurus PT92-based prototypes in 10mm Norma and .357 Magnum. Needless to say, the latter had an awfully long reach to the trigger. The article came out around the time Taurus was playing with a .41 Action Express model before it was buried by the .40 S&W.
I like to see a better quality Kel-tec sub 2000 in .45 and 10mm and take Glock mags. But also fold like their wu so it can still be fire folded.
I feel pretty confident that if they'd need a whole new weapon to handle 10mm auto. The 92 is only 9mm after all and it doesn't exactly have a smashing reputation for long service life.
ChicagoTex
08-16-12, 00:52
The 92 is only 9mm after all and it doesn't exactly have a smashing reputation for long service life.
Outside of locking blocks needing replacement from cracking (which I grant you is a problem most other contemporary semi-autos lack) we've got plenty of M9s in use at well over 100k rounds with little other issues outside of standard spring replacement. It's not as tough as some, but it's not like it's a Hi-Power either.
Outside of locking blocks needing replacement from cracking (which I grant you is a problem most other contemporary semi-autos lack) we've got plenty of M9s in use at well over 100k rounds with little other issues outside of standard spring replacement. It's not as tough as some, but it's not like it's a Hi-Power either.
That's interesting, all the issued ones I've seen are crap but every armorer is different and weapons that don't get their parts changed on schedule will fail more quickly than others so I don't believe it's implausible at all. You just made me re-think buying my own.
Alaskapopo
08-16-12, 01:48
Outside of locking blocks needing replacement from cracking (which I grant you is a problem most other contemporary semi-autos lack) we've got plenty of M9s in use at well over 100k rounds with little other issues outside of standard spring replacement. It's not as tough as some, but it's not like it's a Hi-Power either.
Really I had a friend break the slide on a M9 after putting just 10K rounds through it. The frames also crack.
Pat
In any case, I'd say the possibility of any major manufacturer putting a new 10mm on the market is pretty much zero. OP, count yourself lucky sales are strong enough for Glock to still be putting the 20 out.
Hogsgunwild
08-16-12, 06:04
Smith and Wesson has a history of producing some very nice 10MMs over the years. They have always impressed me with their ability to put out such a broad selection of handgun models and calibers.
Their latest offering in 10MM is the Night Guard revolver.
I suspect that Smith and Wesson has too much going on with their M&P line to bother with another caliber presently but it would not surprise me if they were to eventually offer a 10MM M&P to their line. I'd jump on one of those faster than Rosie O'Donnell on a side of beef.
Hogsgunwild
08-16-12, 06:07
Didn't Bruce Gray tinker with a Sig 10MM conversion some years ago?
Gary1911A1
08-16-12, 10:45
On YouTube there was a video of someone shooting a Beretta in 10MM. I'll have to search for it. A rotating barrel just might handle the 10MM better than other locking systems like the Browning and P38 style. I'd like to see one.
ChicagoTex
08-16-12, 13:14
Really I had a friend break the slide on a M9 after putting just 10K rounds through it. The frames also crack.
By no means am I claiming this didn't happen, but the number of old M9s in use today speak for themselves. Remember that if ANY weapon is issued in a large enough quantity, there will be units that fail, often early and in spectacular ways. How many reports have we seen of problematic Glocks, SIGs, 1911s, etc?
If you don't trust the Beretta, that's fine. I have no issue with that and I've already admitted they're not as durable as some of their contemporaries. But it's unreasonable to extrapolate a single anecdote to supercede what is now decades worth of data to the contrary.
That's interesting, all the issued ones I've seen are crap but every armorer is different and weapons that don't get their parts changed on schedule will fail more quickly than others so I don't believe it's implausible at all.
I'm not and have never been in the military, nor am I an armorer, but I've been told by people who are that the reason so many people get soured on M9s in the military is that the armorers will generally not do any maintenance/part replacement until the gun actually fails. To their mind things like "this is the worst trigger in the world" is not a failure, and not significant.
I know there are members on this board who do have firsthand experience with this, and I hope they will chime in.
I personally don't see this happening.
Beretta won't do a brigadier slide again because they have newer equipment, and they don't want to take the time for someone to put the specs into the new software to make it again... They have told us that at the beretta forum for years.
So, I just don't see them doing 10mm
Alaskapopo
08-16-12, 15:34
By no means am I claiming this didn't happen, but the number of old M9s in use today speak for themselves. Remember that if ANY weapon is issued in a large enough quantity, there will be units that fail, often early and in spectacular ways. How many reports have we seen of problematic Glocks, SIGs, 1911s, etc?
If you don't trust the Beretta, that's fine. I have no issue with that and I've already admitted they're not as durable as some of their contemporaries. But it's unreasonable to extrapolate a single anecdote to supercede what is now decades worth of data to the contrary.
I'm not and have never been in the military, nor am I an armorer, but I've been told by people who are that the reason so many people get soured on M9s in the military is that the armorers will generally not do any maintenance/part replacement until the gun actually fails. To their mind things like "this is the worst trigger in the world" is not a failure, and not significant.
I know there are members on this board who do have firsthand experience with this, and I hope they will chime in.
Were you aware that the US miltiary only required the M9 to have a 5000 round service. Life. Now it generally does much better. However the fact they have a lot of M9's in service does not mean they are lasting 100000 rounds. It just means they are not shooting them much. There is a reason why the parts of the military that do shoot pistols a lot like SOF don't generaly use the M9. You can only get so many rounds on an alluminum frame before failure.
Pat
Were you aware that the US miltiary only required the M9 to have a 5000 round service. Life. Now it generally does much better. However the fact they have a lot of M9's in service does not mean they are lasting 100000 rounds. It just means they are not shooting them much. There is a reason why the parts of the military that do shoot pistols a lot like SOF don't generaly use the M9. You can only get so many rounds on an alluminum frame before failure.
Pat
I'm not so sure this is accurate. While it is true that CAG uses Glock and the AWG used them for a time, most soldiers in the Army SF community are still issued M9's. It has been a couple years since my last CENTCOM deployment, so things might have changed.
However, I will agree with your statement that the average soldier issued a sidearm does not fire it nearly as much as their M4.
Interestingly, I was fortunate to receive a brand new M9 from CRC on my last 2 deployments. I was not so lucky in 2007 when my pistol really looked like a stainless Beretta. It appeared that only the recoil spring and guide rod had been replaced. The safety/de-cocker was so worn that it would slide between positions with 1/2 the resistance of a new pistol. I also scored my lowest qual score of my career with that pistol (I have no idea if there might be some inverse "placebo effect" since I was not thrilled to have it). It was turned into CRC at the end of my deployment and probably re-issued within 1 week to another unsuspecting victim. Nobody has ever asked me for a round count when I turn in my sidearm, so I have no idea how they could possibly keep accurate maintenance records.
Gary1911A1
08-16-12, 16:55
Here's that link to a Beretta in 10MM I talked about. I'm not sure if he ever developed a magazine for it and I don't see how he could making the CX4 a better candidate for 10MM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8NoanE9q-o
rotorblade
08-16-12, 17:25
10mm needs a locked breach to take full advantage of the case capacity and volume of gas it has. Blowback and delayed blowback (roller locked) actions let the pressure to drop right to .40Auto loads.
maddawg5777
08-17-12, 23:00
Really I had a friend break the slide on a M9 after putting just 10K rounds through it. The frames also crack.
Pat
Not to pick a fight here I usually agree with your posts pat but glocks are plastic and go KABOOM, AR's are unreliable, MIM is the worst thing in the world and 45 acp will knock you off your feet:rolleyes:.
These things happen and sometimes are due to a bad on in the bunch or teething of a new design/material. Beretta has a bad rap because of the issues associated with it during its initial testing. I also know several grunts who hate it just because they are issued. (same guys will tell you a piston bushmaster is what they want instead of their colt) Wish i was still in my unit so I could give you numbers but we have several Beretta's between 30-50k through them with only spring replacements.
The locking block issue has been slightly corrected, if I remember correctly when the m9a1 was released Beretta changed the angle on the edges of the locking block to take some stress off of it and increasing its life expectancy.
The reason I see units moving away from the Beretta is not because its so terrible but its more susceptible to dirt and debris and why use DA/SA when its easier to train with a constant style trigger. (SAO, Striker.....ect)
To stay on track here a little, the 92 will never house anything bigger than 40. It would require a complete rebuild of the gun and the slide would be HUGE. I don't think Beretta will invest in all new machining to make a change to the 92 series.
Alaskapopo
08-18-12, 00:11
Not to pick a fight here I usually agree with your posts pat but glocks are plastic and go KABOOM, AR's are unreliable, MIM is the worst thing in the world and 45 acp will knock you off your feet:rolleyes:.
These things happen and sometimes are due to a bad on in the bunch or teething of a new design/material. Beretta has a bad rap because of the issues associated with it during its initial testing. I also know several grunts who hate it just because they are issued. (same guys will tell you a piston bushmaster is what they want instead of their colt) Wish i was still in my unit so I could give you numbers but we have several Beretta's between 30-50k through them with only spring replacements.
The locking block issue has been slightly corrected, if I remember correctly when the m9a1 was released Beretta changed the angle on the edges of the locking block to take some stress off of it and increasing its life expectancy.
The reason I see units moving away from the Beretta is not because its so terrible but its more susceptible to dirt and debris and why use DA/SA when its easier to train with a constant style trigger. (SAO, Striker.....ect)
To stay on track here a little, the 92 will never house anything bigger than 40. It would require a complete rebuild of the gun and the slide would be HUGE. I don't think Beretta will invest in all new machining to make a change to the 92 series.
I am not saying Beretta sucks. I like the 92 design and those I have owned have always been reliable. The problems with this pistol are more on the durablity line. All alluminum framed pistols are problematic in this area.
Pat
maddawg5777
08-18-12, 11:05
And I'm not arguing that aluminum isn't a weaker source to build a frame with just seems that people discredit the 92 based off its failings in the past when most of the problems have been addressed. Is it the best super wonder blaster?...... No, but I think they are one of the better options on the market if one likes large frame da/sa pistols.
ChicagoTex
08-18-12, 18:29
All alluminum framed pistols are problematic in this area.
Define problematic. Even if I accepted your premise that the Beretta is fragile (which I most certainly do not), SIG P226s, P228s, and P229s have a long history of lower 6 digit round counts without major issue before becoming unserviceable, frequently in the hands of some of the frequent pistol shooting SFs you allege are Beretta-phobic*.
Considering that by the time you've hit 100k on a pistol you've expended somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000 worth of ammunition, a ~$300 frame replacement, or even a $600 full replacement of the gun (which may need a barrel replacement by that point anyway) is frankly trivial.
"Problematic"? Not hardly.
*as an aside, every single individual I've personally known who has, in one way or another, Been There Done That, and has expressed a displeasure with the Beretta has cited the slide-mounted safety that can be accidentally tripped during slide manipulation as their ONLY major objection to the weapon. I have never, not once, encountered such an individual who expressed any concern about the durability of the Beretta outside of crappy armorers failing to service the pistols properly (i.e. failing to do recoil spring replacements when obviously necessary, failing to examine locking blocks for cracking, failing to service any springs of the trigger/hammer assembly EVER).
Facebook. So gun friendly. . . .
Wish I had not sold my Beretta 92, or that I had the money to put 100k rounds through one of my guns so I could put this issue to rest:suicide:. Oh well.
Define problematic. Even if I accepted your premise that the Beretta is fragile (which I most certainly do not), SIG P226s, P228s, and P229s have a long history of lower 6 digit round counts without major issue before becoming unserviceable, frequently in the hands of some of the frequent pistol shooting SFs you allege are Beretta-phobic*.
Considering that by the time you've hit 100k on a pistol you've expended somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000 worth of ammunition, a ~$300 frame replacement, or even a $600 full replacement of the gun (which may need a barrel replacement by that point anyway) is frankly trivial.
"Problematic"? Not hardly.
*as an aside, every single individual I've personally known who has, in one way or another, Been There Done That, and has expressed a displeasure with the Beretta has cited the slide-mounted safety that can be accidentally tripped during slide manipulation as their ONLY major objection to the weapon. I have never, not once, encountered such an individual who expressed any concern about the durability of the Beretta outside of crappy armorers failing to service the pistols properly (i.e. failing to do recoil spring replacements when obviously necessary, failing to examine locking blocks for cracking, failing to service any springs of the trigger/hammer assembly EVER).
As a guy with extensive experience with the Beretta 96D Brigadier, I can say that "fragile" is a quite appropriate description of the pistol. I have had two personally that had to be removed from service with cracked frames, neither exceeded 5,000rds. The Beretta 96D was such a horrific duty pistol our agency had to go out and bid a replacement several years ahead of schedule, so yes, FRAGILE, is an appropriate description.
misanthropist
08-18-12, 21:19
Is there anywhere to sign up for a Facebook petition for Beretta to make a CX4 in 9mm, but that doesn't suck?
I'd be more interested in a 9mm non-suck CX4 than a 10mm standard suck version.
Alaskapopo
08-18-12, 21:42
Define problematic. Even if I accepted your premise that the Beretta is fragile (which I most certainly do not), SIG P226s, P228s, and P229s have a long history of lower 6 digit round counts without major issue before becoming unserviceable, frequently in the hands of some of the frequent pistol shooting SFs you allege are Beretta-phobic*.
Considering that by the time you've hit 100k on a pistol you've expended somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000 worth of ammunition, a ~$300 frame replacement, or even a $600 full replacement of the gun (which may need a barrel replacement by that point anyway) is frankly trivial.
"Problematic"? Not hardly.
*as an aside, every single individual I've personally known who has, in one way or another, Been There Done That, and has expressed a displeasure with the Beretta has cited the slide-mounted safety that can be accidentally tripped during slide manipulation as their ONLY major objection to the weapon. I have never, not once, encountered such an individual who expressed any concern about the durability of the Beretta outside of crappy armorers failing to service the pistols properly (i.e. failing to do recoil spring replacements when obviously necessary, failing to examine locking blocks for cracking, failing to service any springs of the trigger/hammer assembly EVER).
If it would make 100k that would be fine but most crap out around 20k or so on the frame and I reload so my ammo cost is no where near what you are stating. Its funny how you state no one complains about Beretta's outside of the dingus (frame mounted safety decockers) and then you go on to list a ton of exceptions and excuses. A Glock 17 does not need a pit crew to keep it running. I know of plenty of service men who hate the M9 with a passion.
Pat
20,000 is a possibility on low power, NATO ball but a 92/96 running full power, or +P duty loads simply will not do it.
Alaskapopo
08-18-12, 22:04
20,000 is a possibility on low power, NATO ball but a 92/96 running full power, or +P duty loads simply will not do it.
Just a side note but nato ball is as hot as +p duty ammo. They load it much hotter than commercial USA 9mm ammo spec.
Pat
As a guy with extensive experience with the Beretta 96D Brigadier, I can say that "fragile" is a quite appropriate description of the pistol. I have had two personally that had to be removed from service with cracked frames, neither exceeded 5,000rds. The Beretta 96D was such a horrific duty pistol our agency had to go out and bid a replacement several years ahead of schedule, so yes, FRAGILE, is an appropriate description.
That's a failure common to the 96 variants. I have a 92G Elite that's got thousands of rounds through it over 10+ years, and it still runs fine. I think the Beretta, like most guns, works best in its original caliber and format. The gun just wasn't built to take the pounding of a .40 over long periods.
maddawg5777
08-19-12, 10:34
That's a failure common to the 96 variants. I have a 92G Elite that's got thousands of rounds through it over 10+ years, and it still runs fine. I think the Beretta, like most guns, works best in its original caliber and format. The gun just wasn't built to take the pounding of a .40 over long periods.
Very true, also if iremeber correctly the orginal m-9 straight dust cover is the weakest of the frames. Then they changed it to the slant style dust cover to fix that issue. Now with the 92a1 and m9a1 I wonder with the rail if the frame is stronger in that area. I guess if you all want to pitch in ammo for my 92a1 ill run it till it breaks.:haha:
ChicagoTex
08-19-12, 20:56
Its funny how you state no one complains about Beretta's outside of the dingus (frame mounted safety decockers) and then you go on to list a ton of exceptions and excuses. A Glock 17 does not need a pit crew to keep it running.
Recoil and trigger/hammer(striker) springs need to be changed on Glocks too. The only special thing the Beretta requires is locking block examination after a decent course of fire, which can be achieved in approximately two seconds with a simple slide removal, in most cases you don't even need to pull out the barrel or recoil spring. Exactly how is that "requiring a pit crew to keep running"? Frankly, if someone who depends on their handgun for their life can't be bothered to do as little as that, they pretty much deserve to experience failure at a critical point. This stuff is not rocket science and you know it.
I know of plenty of service men who hate the M9 with a passion.
I didn't say Service Men, I said BTDTs. I know plenty of current and former military personnel who have all manner of opinions about equipment they rarely, if ever use.*
As a guy with extensive experience with the Beretta 96D Brigadier, I can say that "fragile" is a quite appropriate description of the pistol. I have had two personally that had to be removed from service with cracked frames, neither exceeded 5,000rds. The Beretta 96D was such a horrific duty pistol our agency had to go out and bid a replacement several years ahead of schedule, so yes, FRAGILE, is an appropriate description.
I apologize for being unclear. The Beretta 96 is a well-documented cluster**** I won't even begin to defend. For the purposes of this argument I am referring to the 9mm variant only.
Returning to the original topic of the post: the issues with the 96 highlight precisely why a 10mm based on the 92 platform would be utterly unfeasible. While (apparently debateably:rolleyes: ) entirely serviceable in 9mm, deviating to larger rounds simply hasn't gone well and attempting to do a 10mm variant in light of that would be absurd.
*case in point: I personally know three guys who did deployments in Iraq with SAWs in non-frontline and/or non-combat units who utterly loathed the gun for it's weight, I also personally know two guys (non special forces) who had to use the SAWs in combat who both swear to me that they would never consider trading their SAWs for anything else besides possibly an M240. The Military is by and large filled with people who have (thankfully) never had to employ any weapon on a two-way range, and for that reason, the opinions such individuals may have regarding the long-term battle-readiness of any given piece of equipment aren't particularly useful.
I do not mean this to be a pissing match between my military acquaintances/friends and yours, and if by "service men" you meant individuals who've encountered significant action than I withdraw my objection entirely. I am simply seeking to clarify what I am talking about and hoping you will do the same.
maddawg5777
08-20-12, 00:57
The Military is by and large filled with people who have (thankfully) never had to employ any weapon on a two-way range, and for that reason, the opinions such individuals may have regarding the long-term battle-readiness of any given piece of equipment aren't particularly useful.[/B]
I do not mean this to be a pissing match between my military acquaintances/friends and yours, and if by "service men" you meant individuals who've encountered significant action than I withdraw my objection entirely. I am simply seeking to clarify what I am talking about and hoping you will do the same.
This right there is 120% percent correct. How many guys have I ran into and just because they carry a rifle think they know what would be better/best. Hell just cause I was required to carry a M4 and M9 everyday didnt make me a guru. I had alot to learn from just the basics required to run the armory. That is the info that usually leaks out and causes rumors about about weapon (fill in the blank).
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