View Full Version : 1911 Trigger Job Gone Awry!
Ok, let me preface this by saying I work on Harley cop bikes and Ford cop Vics. In otherwords I am NO gunsmith. That being said I have an issue. In a few former 1911s I had, Charles Daly and Para P 13-45 I installed McCormick ready fit hammers and sears and with out much fanfare I had a 4lb trigger i could live with. In my newest adventure, a Springfield Black Combat stainless I even installed a McCormick sear with the stock Delta hammer and was good to go. Heres where it all went down hill. I was tired of the wrong colored Delta hammer on my Springer. It should have been black but SA put a stainless one on it. Soo; I visted my local parts source and McCormick hammers and sears were not to be had. None in stock. My next choice pricewise was the MIM Wilson parts that claim to be ready fit. Installed hammer and sear Saturday and ended up with a 3 and 3/4 pull without touching anything. Yeah me. Dryfire for 2 days and start getting 5 and 1/2 pulls. Check install and lube, no better. Play with different sear springs and bends. Goes down to 3.5 and jumps back up to 5 when it wants. What am I missing? I was not happy my thumb safety needed major surgery to go back in after the install. Is it the difference between WC and McCormick or did I screw up? Also when in doubt of things I removed thumb and grip safeties and backed trigger overtravel screw off. Still had issues. Thanks for any help or advice.
Robb Jensen
01-29-08, 05:37
This is one of those areas I don't like to mess around with. The 1911 takes a bit of fitting of it's internal frame parts for a good reliable light and safe trigger job.
On my 1911/2011 pattern guns I've been using the C&S (Cylinder & Slide) fire control kits (usually $120-180). These come with a new sear, hammer, disconnector, mainspring, and sear spring and are all prefit to each other. I've had good luck using these on my own guns.
In my STI I have the Warp Speed kit...3lb pull Brownells part # 206-038-100 but I'm using a heavier mainspring (21lbs) for about a 4.25lb trigger pull.
In my Springfield Loaded I have the Tactical Match kit...4.5lb pull Brownells part # 206-103-050 and use it with the provided springs.
This is like diagnosing a driveability problem by mail. I have no illusions of being a Harley mechanic - I'm just saying. Here's my recommendation for a simple fix, based on the information you've provided. This takes into consideration your admitted lack of experience with the 1911 platform. This is not meant to offend & I'm not being a smart ass.
Take the 'silver' part that worked, refinish it, or have it refinished, to black. The inner workings of a 1911 are relatively easy if you understand the parts relationships, everything is of the proper dimension & you understand how to fit them. However...
I'm sure there will be several other opinions offered-up here. Choose wisely & good luck.
Wayne Dobbs
01-29-08, 10:41
The 1911 is NOT a Glock. There are NO "drop-in" 1911 parts worth having. ALL 1911 FCG parts must be fitted. The foregoing comments are from one of the best and foremost 1911 pistolsmiths on the planet. Suggest you don't load or shoot that pistol until the problems have been corrected by a competent 1911 pistolsmith.
You may have an unsafe (as in full auto) pistol. Ask me how I know...
I appreciate the responses I have gotten so far. That being said I will address some of them. Gotm4 hit the nail on the head. I have my eye on the C&S trigger groups. But as money is very tight for me at this moment paying 120 to 180 for a trigger kit cant happen. Hopefully it can after tax returns and Uncle Sams 600 dollar contribution to the economy.
Putting the silver one back in is no big deal. I have always had that option. But the questions werent regarding returning it to stock, they were wondering why the parts in there at this moment were having issues. The hammer color didnt really bug me that much. I prefer black but I am not a fan of the "delta" look either way. Prefer the more common type found on the other 99% of 1911s.
Also saying I am not a gunsmith never implied I dont know how a 1911 functions. I am not a hack just hoping I didnt put in a part upside down. I study everything I ever get interested in. Im very well read on the gun. I know how to function test. I know to load one round, Test. Load 2 rounds test etc, etc. I would never in a million years pop in a full mag after working on my 1911 and just "hope" it worked. Fear not. I used to work parttime cleaning guns at a local shop. I am not a mall ninja gun nerd dumbass.
With all that being said the original intent of my question was why the Wilson parts might have been giving such erratic function versus my previous good experience with the McCormick parts and if there was something somebody else might have experienced that I could look for in this install. I am not taking anything wrong, I am thankful for all opinions.
Mike
Are you saying the pull weight changes from one trigger pull to the next? Can you go into more detail on what you did to the sear spring? What kind of "major surgery" did you do to the thumb safety? Did you do any fitting to the hammer and sear engagement surfaces? A little more info may be helpful in helping you diagnos the problem.
-RD62
Are you saying the pull weight changes from one trigger pull to the next? Can you go into more detail on what you did to the sear spring? What kind of "major surgery" did you do to the thumb safety? Did you do any fitting to the hammer and sear engagement surfaces? A little more info may be helpful in helping you diagnos the problem.
-RD62
Yes. 4 onetime, 5.5 nexttime etc. Center leg of sear spring bent back slightly. Not much farther back than stock one I keep as a guide.
The thumb safety dropped in and out with either of the other sears. Wilson sear has a very pronounced squareness at the bottom versus more of a radius on other sears. "Major" surgery might have been exaggerating. I just had to file down the safety a bit to clear the sear and then a bit more to rotate without binding on sear. Oh it works too. Trigger pull has issues with or without grip or thumb safety installed. No fitting. I have no tools for that, hence buying "drop in" parts. I am starting to think I should locate someone with the McCormick parts and ditch the Wilsons. The whole theme of this is after many times doing this to other guns with CM parts I never had a problem until now with the Wilson parts. That is the uncommon denominator in all this.
Bolt_Overide
01-29-08, 23:35
My opinion, take it to a gunsmith who knows 1911's. This is not something you want to dick up.
after reading this a couple of times and looking at my bathtub full of 1911's, I can appreciate your frustration.....something that crossed my mind you might want to consider; pins....maybe the pins are binding/galling or causing the drag difference.....just a thought - I know the feeling, I've had it as well
The 1911 is NOT a Glock. There are NO "drop-in" 1911 parts worth having. ALL 1911 FCG parts must be fitted. The foregoing comments are from one of the best and foremost 1911 pistolsmiths on the planet. Suggest you don't load or shoot that pistol until the problems have been corrected by a competent 1911 pistolsmith.
You may have an unsafe (as in full auto) pistol. Ask me how I know...
This is not entirely true. I have dropped in a trigger, slide stop lever, barrel bushing, MSH, and a wilson "drop in" grip saftey, with success. My pistol works fine and is completely safe. All these parts did not require any fitting on my part and work well.
With that being said, I did need a Smith to install my sear, hammer, and thumb saftey. i just wasnt comfortable doing it myself.
Even parts advertised as "drop in" will almost always have an advisory that they should be installed by a gunsmith.
A hammer and sear kit that are matched to one another are not necessarily fitted to the frame that you are using.
Tolerance stacking, off-center or enlarged pin holes, etc. all can cause those nicely matched hammer/sear kits to not work in your pistol, unless they are further fitted.
It takes training, experience, and the right tools to do the critical fitting of 1911 parts. There are few reliable shortcuts, if any! A lot of it, you can't learn from a video or book. That's why a gunsmith costs money. You are paying for their experience, so the job is done right the first time, will be reliable, and will last.
The temptation to do your own work on 1911 projects is strong, but you're better off having a qualified person do it for you. Have it done right the first time, and you'll only cry once.
Even parts advertised as "drop in" will almost always have an advisory that they should be installed by a gunsmith.
A hammer and sear kit that are matched to one another are not necessarily fitted to the frame that you are using.
Tolerance stacking, off-center or enlarged pin holes, etc. all can cause those nicely matched hammer/sear kits to not work in your pistol, unless they are further fitted.
It takes training, experience, and the right tools to do the critical fitting of 1911 parts. There are few reliable shortcuts, if any! A lot of it, you can't learn from a video or book. That's why a gunsmith costs money. You are paying for their experience, so the job is done right the first time, will be reliable, and will last.
The temptation to do your own work on 1911 projects is strong, but you're better off having a qualified person do it for you. Have it done right the first
time, and you'll only cry once.
Some people just arent mechanically inclined:rolleyes:
"Some people just arent mechanically inclined"
Yes.
And some people aren't willing to invest in the training and tools to learn how to do the work right.
For them, paying a qualified person to do this is by far the best option.
A sear scope, files, medium india stone, fine and extra fine stones, external hammer and sear pins, Kuhnhausen's books, etc., are invaluable, yet not do a gunsmith make.
Even after taking Ken Elmore's Colt 1911 armorer class, I bought a bunch of cheap parts to practice on (and ruin), before I felt proficient enough to work on my practice guns, later on my IPSC guns, and eventually, duty guns.
While some of the drop in parts are extremely well done, they aren't going to work right in all frames w/o further modification. Too many variances in guns and all the other parts.
"Some people just arent mechanically inclined"
Yes.
And some people aren't willing to invest in the training and tools to learn how to do the work right.
For them, paying a qualified person to do this is by far the best option.
A sear scope, files, medium india stone, fine and extra fine stones, external hammer and sear pins, Kuhnhausen's books, etc., are invaluable, yet not do a gunsmith make.
Even after taking Ken Elmore's Colt 1911 armorer class, I bought a bunch of cheap parts to practice on (and ruin), before I felt proficient enough to work on my practice guns, later on my IPSC guns, and eventually, duty guns.
While some of the drop in parts are extremely well done, they aren't going to work right in all frames w/o further modification. Too many variances in guns and all the other parts.
I totally get what you are saying. But in my experience certain parts I have intalled have required very minor to no fitting. Granted I have only worked on Colts mostly. I recently intalled a Wilson trigger on my Colt 1991 and it required absolutley zero fitting.
Now dont get me wrong, I leave certain things up to my smith. Particularly, sear and trigger work. I just dont have the right tools for the job.
But, if you get yourself a nice file set, maybe some abrasive tape, its not to hard to fit certain parts. Just my opinion.
TraderJack
02-20-08, 16:13
All good advice. Seek competent help.
The 1911 pistol may be a production line item that is mass produced, but you must remember that each individual gun is hand fitted and assembled.
Parts are interchangable in that they are the same part - but they still require some fitting.
In some cases .010 may need to be filed off the piece to make it fit, in others there may be .010 clearance already there.
They are machines. Finely tuned, deadly machines. Treat them with respect and reverence. They are not to be triffled with.
Regards,
TraderJack
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